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(MN Vapers)   Why is the American Lung Assn against e-cigs? Because one of their major donors makes money from smoking cessation drugs   (mnvapers.com) divider line 300
    More: Obvious, American Library Association, March of Dimes, Chantix, electronic cigarette, harm reduction, charity, safety concerns, smoking  
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4562 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Mar 2014 at 12:12 AM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-26 10:33:44 AM

Mugato: Why would you think the tobacco industry wouldn't want to stamp out e-cigs? People are quitting tobacco for e-cigs.


Why would big tobacco want to stamp out the hottest new thing in "smoking" and an industry that is growing at an enormous rate, when it can seize control of the entire industry and establish an oligopoly through federal regulation?

Which is precisely why there has been a big push, led by big tobacco, for the FDA to regulate ecigs as "tobacco products."  Which actually happened recently, until public outcry forced the FDA to roll those plans back.
 
2014-03-26 11:04:42 AM

rikkards: autopsybeverage: 433: I don't know how wise it is to be inhaling vegetable oil (or whatever) either.  Sure, you can exhale it, but plenty was left behind.  Nicotine is crazy addictive, too.  You're pledging to suck the cock of your favorite vaporizer company until you put it down for good.  I don't think a company marketing a nicotine delivery device outside of gum and patches has that many scruples.  Nicotine is not good for a body.

There are many things that are not good for a body.  Not too many of those things are addictive drugs like nicotine.

Would you be putting vegetable oil in your lungs under regular circumstances?

Smoking sure is great, though.  Dammit!  Why must it be so awful for us!

Before you go white-knighting the gum snd patch manufacturers, please consider that 98% of smokers who attempt to quit using these two methods will be active consumers of cigarettes again within two years of the quit attempt, and they know it. They are selling snake oil.

Citation please.
I went on the patch in 94 and was on for 6 months and went off and been off since then. I have had cigars every couple months (keeps the mosquitos away when camping) and a handful of cigarettes since but have still been off.


First of all, congratulations on your success with cutting back to recreational use levels. Unfortunately I don't have a direct link to the study, but it shouldn't be too hard to google.
 
2014-03-26 11:21:21 AM

Perducci: Assn


Only one comment on it.  "Assn" is one of the most irritating things I've seen in a while.  Ugh.

/yet using the shortened "e-cigs" doesn't give me the same nervous twitch... hm, I wonder what it is.
 
2014-03-26 11:24:09 AM

hardinparamedic: Adolf Oliver Nipples: You do it every day. It's called "cooking". Those smells you love in your favorite restaurant? Yep, all kinds of volatile compounds, not the least of which is the oil it was cooked in.

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

Paracelsus frowns on your post. Vaporized oils directly from a nozzle in your mouth inhaled into your lungs is quite different from the chance a small amount of oil might accompany steam from a skillet.


Wow.

You can't taste vegetable oil in an E-cig.

But, have you ever been a fry cook before?

Try going into the kitchen of a restaurant that does a lot of frying...... you can feel, see, and taste the oil in the air.

Maybe we should be paying McDonalds workers a bunch more. They deserve hazard pay for having to breath in all those toxic oils!
 
2014-03-26 11:35:00 AM

Elegy: Amd if you're tired of your coworkers going outside for smoke breaks, what is keeping you from walking outside for a des hair break? Sounds like you have a problem and want to blame your coworkers for it. Classy.


I find not being able to make it through the work day without frequent breaks to use drugs classy as well.
 
2014-03-26 11:52:39 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Elegy: Amd if you're tired of your coworkers going outside for smoke breaks, what is keeping you from walking outside for a des hair break? Sounds like you have a problem and want to blame your coworkers for it. Classy.

I find not being able to make it through the work day without frequent breaks to use drugs classy as well.


He says as he sips from his coffee mug with a smug sense of satisfaction.
 
2014-03-26 12:13:15 PM

HotWingConspiracy: I find not being able to make it through the work day without frequent breaks to use drugs classy as well.


Oh, now it makes sense.  You don't like things like ecigs that can help smokers quit because your emotional wellbeing depends on having a large pool of people to judge.
 
2014-03-26 01:17:04 PM

JuggleGeek: Big tobacco doesn't want e-cigs made illegal.  They want them highly regulated so the only people who can sell them are, by coincidence (and for our safety, I'm sure), owned by the big tobacco companies.


Bingo
 
2014-03-26 01:20:28 PM
Big tobacco is all over this. We already function as if under FDA regulation (because the rules are already proposed, it's just a matter of the slow ass regulatory process catching up).
 
2014-03-26 01:28:33 PM

Witness99: JuggleGeek: Big tobacco doesn't want e-cigs made illegal.  They want them highly regulated so the only people who can sell them are, by coincidence (and for our safety, I'm sure), owned by the big tobacco companies.

Bingo


And you're right about the safety part. Got hundreds of thousands to spend on safety and product quality? No?

You wouldn't believe the resources put in place by big tobacco to ensure safety.
 
2014-03-26 01:30:33 PM

sjcousins: hardinparamedic: sjcousins: He's more of a fedora-wearing, brony, nurse but yeah, probably the best course of action.

I'm not your mother last night.

Men have been murdered for less horrendous accusations, Sir. The Holocaust was established on less offensive pretenses.

Sounds like something this guy would say.
[img.fark.net image 576x792]
Consider yourself favourited.


That's not a fedora, it's a trilby.

www.fashish.com
 
2014-03-26 03:12:39 PM

Elegy: Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?


It's funny how every post you make reinforces the idea of you being an idiot.
 
2014-03-26 03:22:37 PM

Elegy: Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?


It runs naturally with his type. Have an ex sister in law and her husband who do what Hardonparamedic does. You can't farking stand to be around them for more than a few minutes. The smugness, the superiority and general disdain for us unwashed masses make you want to punch them both right in the mouth.
 
2014-03-26 03:35:23 PM

WTFDYW: Elegy: Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?

It runs naturally with his type. Have an ex sister in law and her husband who do what Hardonparamedic does. You can't farking stand to be around them for more than a few minutes. The smugness, the superiority and general disdain for us unwashed masses make you want to punch them both right in the mouth.


Ha! I thought I was the only one.

His Captain, and the State EMS Chief are pretty cool. I rattled their cage whilst doing an article about public employees wasting time.

After having to explain what a 'Brony' was, I had to wait about five minutes until the gal could catch her breath. "That explains a few things", was her eventual response.

What I found out about BronyMedic/Hardin/others is; He's not a bad kid, just extremely socially awkward, and only one brick shy of a load. He is actually well liked, and they will go out of their way to defend him.
 
2014-03-26 04:14:54 PM

Elegy: Mugato: Why would you think the tobacco industry wouldn't want to stamp out e-cigs? People are quitting tobacco for e-cigs.

Why would big tobacco want to stamp out the hottest new thing in "smoking" and an industry that is growing at an enormous rate, when it can seize control of the entire industry and establish an oligopoly through federal regulation?

Which is precisely why there has been a big push, led by big tobacco, for the FDA to regulate ecigs as "tobacco products."  Which actually happened recently, until public outcry forced the FDA to roll those plans back.


That's really not how things work.
 
2014-03-26 06:02:20 PM

Mugato: Elegy: Mugato: Why would you think the tobacco industry wouldn't want to stamp out e-cigs? People are quitting tobacco for e-cigs.

Why would big tobacco want to stamp out the hottest new thing in "smoking" and an industry that is growing at an enormous rate, when it can seize control of the entire industry and establish an oligopoly through federal regulation?

Which is precisely why there has been a big push, led by big tobacco, for the FDA to regulate ecigs as "tobacco products."  Which actually happened recently, until public outcry forced the FDA to roll those plans back.

That's really not how things work.


You guys (Oh You LOL)....

Don't listen to me. But I'm telling you that is precisely how it works.

See RIN 0910-AG38, Pub ID: Fall 2013

You guys are so funny :)
 
2014-03-26 06:12:16 PM

Slam1263: WTFDYW: Elegy: Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?

It runs naturally with his type. Have an ex sister in law and her husband who do what Hardonparamedic does. You can't farking stand to be around them for more than a few minutes. The smugness, the superiority and general disdain for us unwashed masses make you want to punch them both right in the mouth.

Ha! I thought I was the only one.

His Captain, and the State EMS Chief are pretty cool. I rattled their cage whilst doing an article about public employees wasting time.

After having to explain what a 'Brony' was, I had to wait about five minutes until the gal could catch her breath. "That explains a few things", was her eventual response.

What I found out about BronyMedic/Hardin/others is; He's not a bad kid, just extremely socially awkward, and only one brick shy of a load. He is actually well liked, and they will go out of their way to defend him.


They should call him Radar O'Riley, if that's the case.
 
2014-03-26 06:20:28 PM
E-cigs, which vaporize a liquid that contains nicotine, are much, much healthier than traditional burnt tobacco leaves.

If you're all butt hurt about that (and I'm sure you have your reasons)....it doesn't change the fact.

What you all should really be doing is hounding the people that burn marijuana leaves. That is also not nearly as safe as vaporizing a THC e-cig. (It's coming)
 
2014-03-26 06:24:11 PM

hardinparamedic: It's funny how every post you make reinforces the idea of you being an idiot.


Aww, whatsamatter liddle buddy, that one strike a nerve? I sowwry.

Funny how you linked I article after article about smokeless tobacco. To CNN articles about nicotine and heart disease. Funny too how you confused vegetable OIL (which you cook with) with vegetable GLYCERINE (which is what is in ecigs).

You even said here:

hardinparamedic: can you link to those studies


And here I am, with a whole folder of links to research showing that ecigs pose no significant cancer threat and that there is literally no know biological pathway for the ingredients in ecigs to cause damage, and all you can do is call me an idiot?

Weak sauce, my friend, weak sauce. All of the other ponies are going to be disappointed in you. Some medical expert you are.

WTFDYW: It runs naturally with his type. Have an ex sister in law and her husband who do what Hardonparamedic does. You can't farking stand to be around them for more than a few minutes. The smugness, the superiority and general disdain for us unwashed masses make you want to punch them both right in the mouth.


First responder's disease. It's kinda like "nice guy syndrome" for professionals. The underlying assumption is that since a first responder helps people professionally, everyone owes it to them to listen to them and that they are somehow on a higher plane of being, smarter and kinder than everyone else. When in reality, they're unbearable people trying to force others into obligation for being so damn first-responsey.

Slam1263: What I found out about BronyMedic/Hardin/others is; He's not a bad kid, just extremely socially awkward, and only one brick shy of a load. He is actually well liked, and they will go out of their way to defend him.


I have him farkied as "harmless but an ass." You have to understand, being a socially awkward brony who saves people for a living in the Deep South causes a lot of stress on the psyche. It's natural that he acts out in public from time to time; the trick is you have to apply the proper corrective procedure. Next time you see his captain, tell him/her to swat him with a paper and say "NO" in a firm but clear voice when hardin starts acting up.
 
2014-03-26 06:51:01 PM

hardinparamedic: Elegy: Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?

It's funny how every post you make reinforces the idea of you being an idiot.


I dunno about that man. I mean, I think the questioning of your motives is fine, but the conclusion is obviously a little wacky.

I read most of this thread and its' pretty apparent that you have a firm position on this, one that I happen to think isn't really based in a logical position, like say - harm reduction, and that you initially attempted to put on a veneer of concern trolling to make your argument.

Then when people started pushing back, you started posting dildo pictures. Obviously you felt the need to try to insult people rather than continue with interacting about the points you were trying to make.

If you had merely stopped at, "I think the FDA needs to regulate this" then that would have been sensible. Everything else was whargarble.
 
2014-03-26 07:02:29 PM
Weak sauce.

Ok, I won't contribute anymore. My company doesn't allow me to represent them in public forums....BUT IF YOU ONLY KNEW LOLOLOL
 
2014-03-26 07:04:04 PM
I have more hard core facts than anyone in this thread.
 
2014-03-26 07:59:38 PM
Gee. Where'd he go? Must have ad to go save a vape overdose.

/not surprised.
 
2014-03-26 08:28:48 PM

wavion: Gunther: wavion: smugcondescendingtwat.gif

No offense dude, but I'm pretty sure you lose the right to be smug and condescending in a thread where you claimed that the vast majority of smoking related deaths are caused by heart disease from nicotine.

I mean; that's some anti-vacc level nonsense right there.

The only word I would change about that is "vast." More people die from heart disease than cancer, and smoking is one of the main causes.


It's not the farking nicotine that causes the heart disease.  You keep making that claim, but you are farking wrong.
 
2014-03-26 08:57:25 PM

WTFDYW: Gee. Where'd he go? Must have ad to go save a vape overdose.

/not surprised.


oh no. I'm right here. I just didn't want to interrupt your circle jerk of odd claims about me and attributing positions I've never claimed to me. Plus it's generally frowned upon to comment on FARK and drive.

By all means. Please continue.
 
2014-03-26 09:10:29 PM

hardinparamedic: WTFDYW: Gee. Where'd he go? Must have ad to go save a vape overdose.

/not surprised.

oh no. I'm right here. I just didn't want to interrupt your circle jerk of odd claims about me and attributing positions I've never claimed to me. Plus it's generally frowned upon to comment on FARK and drive.

By all means. Please continue.


Nice to see you are still here, Radar.
 
2014-03-26 09:19:09 PM

WTFDYW: Nice to see you are still here, Radar.


Of course. I'd hate to disappoint you by giving you the impression that you might have to type furiously at someone else to feel important.
 
2014-03-26 09:42:51 PM

hardinparamedic: WTFDYW: Nice to see you are still here, Radar.

Of course. I'd hate to disappoint you by giving you the impression that you might have to type furiously at someone else to feel important.


I used to like your posts a lot. You used to be helpful. But you have slowly built a soap box to stand on and became a lecturer. Most people don't like being lectured to.

/just sayin
 
2014-03-26 10:04:28 PM

WTFDYW: I used to like your posts a lot. You used to be helpful. But you have slowly built a soap box to stand on and became a lecturer. Most people don't like being lectured to.

/just sayin


I just want to point out something here.

The whole reason I even posted in this thread in the first place was because of people who were touting the absolute safety of e-cigs and vapes over cigarettes and other forms of smokeless tobacco, when there is a good amount of evidence out there that, although nowhere near the risk level of the aforementioned smokeless tobacco or cigs, still has some questonable risks that need to be investigted. I even linked high quality studies from high impact journals pointing out such, and questioning the idea that profit from anti-smoking drugs was the motive for trying to ban e-cigs, when in reality the party the article is talking about would stand to profit far more from the continued use of cigarettes, and even electronic cigs.

The only reason I called Elegy an idiot was because I was accused of enjoying keeping people sick. I was outright told that I enjoy watching people die of cancer.

People who don't even know me personally have accused me of being on a power trip where I enjoy abusing and harming my patients for attention.

I was accused of demanding or supporting a ban on e-cigarettes when the only thing I was pointing out was that nicotine is not an absolutely safe compound as some people seem to be arguing, and that there are still unknown factors with e-cigs.

So yeah. Forgive me when I refer to it as the typical circle jerk that comes about from the same posters whenever I post something contrary.
 
2014-03-26 10:07:41 PM

hardinparamedic: WTFDYW: I used to like your posts a lot. You used to be helpful. But you have slowly built a soap box to stand on and became a lecturer. Most people don't like being lectured to.

/just sayin

I just want to point out something here.

The whole reason I even posted in this thread in the first place was because of people who were touting the absolute safety of e-cigs and vapes over cigarettes and other forms of smokeless tobacco, when there is a good amount of evidence out there that, although nowhere near the risk level of the aforementioned smokeless tobacco or cigs, still has some questonable risks that need to be investigted. I even linked high quality studies from high impact journals pointing out such, and questioning the idea that profit from anti-smoking drugs was the motive for trying to ban e-cigs, when in reality the party the article is talking about would stand to profit far more from the continued use of cigarettes, and even electronic cigs.

The only reason I called Elegy an idiot was because I was accused of enjoying keeping people sick. I was outright told that I enjoy watching people die of cancer.

People who don't even know me personally have accused me of being on a power trip where I enjoy abusing and harming my patients for attention.

I was accused of demanding or supporting a ban on e-cigarettes when the only thing I was pointing out was that nicotine is not an absolutely safe compound as some people seem to be arguing, and that there are still unknown factors with e-cigs.

So yeah. Forgive me when I refer to it as the typical circle jerk that comes about from the same posters whenever I post something contrary.


You've already proven yourself homophobic, it isn't a far shot to assume you hate people in general.
 
2014-03-26 10:13:54 PM

Novart: You've already proven yourself homophobic, it isn't a far shot to assume you hate people in general.


Uh. You do realize I'm openly bisexual and dating a man, right?
 
2014-03-26 11:19:54 PM
Hey hardinparamedic, let's review some of your recent posting history:

You telling someone they failed at reading comprehension

You patronizingly using "do go on" and "tell us more"

You telling someone they are "Incredibly, unabashedly, Heartland Foundation bought and paid for by Phillip Morris level Bullshiat wrong."

You posting semi-NSFW dildo and simulated cum shot inline

You posting another inline dildo

You posting long blocks of Latin, aka "shiatposting"

You posting your mom joke directed at another user

You posting another inline dildo

And now then there's this:

The only reason I called Elegy an idiot was because I was accused of enjoying keeping people sick. I was outright told that I enjoy watching people die of cancer.

People who don't even know me personally have accused me of being on a power trip where I enjoy abusing and harming my patients for attention.


Presumably because I cracked this:

Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?

Which obviously went way over your head because it so obviously a sarcastic crack on your behavior not your professional competence.

Well this is what I say to that:
i.imgur.com

Suck it up, buttercup. It's time to put on your big boy pants and get onto the internet. You give as you get, and you get no sympathy for whining about how others treat you when you treat others as you have treated them.

As a bonus, you're flat out wrong and fighting on the wrong side. E-cigarettes have the potential to vastly reduce the harm from smoking. If you are serious about not wanting people to die of cancer, then read the links I posted.

Better yet, come into a thread and ask those of us who have experience with and who have researched the technology. Do you think any of us made the transition on a whim? I build my own coils from scratch and am just starting to mix my own juice - do you honestly think I haven't heavily researched what I am doing? There are numerous people here on Fark that taught me about the technology for the price of asking, and I would be happy to teach you what you obviously don't know (cooking oil for farks sake!). It's ridiculously simple.

But until you quit being a dick, you can suck it up and you can either prove your skepticism is warranted with the science you demand of everyone else or you can tuck your tail between your farking legs and slink out of here in defeat.

Be safe driving.
 
2014-03-26 11:50:03 PM

Elegy: But until you quit being a dick, you can suck it up and you can either prove your skepticism is warranted with the science you demand of everyone else or you can tuck your tail between your farking legs and slink out of here in defeat.


That's nice. You like E-cigs. Really. I get it. How dare I attack something you like.

I've based my skepticism on articles posted in the JAMA and the position statement of the American Heart and Stroke Association

You keep attacking me on the basis I am trying to outright ban something you enjoy, and which you claim has the potential to reduce the harm caused by cigarette smoking, a claim which has not panned out fully based on peer-reviewed research published  this month in the journal of the American Medical Association, which demonstrated no long term change in smoking behaviors in users in E-Cigarettes when compared with other treatment and smoking cessation aids.

www.laprogressive.com

Again. Let me state this. I do not care that you smoke e-cigarettes.

I do not are if you enjoy them or not.

I do not want you to have your favorite smoking replacement banned by the FBI. CIA. DEA. FDA. Or the YMCA.

The only reason I waded into this craphole of an argument was because of the claims made from various people in this thread, namely that e-cigarettes were a miracle smoking cessation aid, that the concerns raised by various professional and medical agencies and organizations were done out of a profit motivation, and that nicotine products were harmless.

In addition, the link you posted about nicotine was about cancer risk. The other link you posted ignores the long term, and documented cardiovascular effects which occur with the use of nicotine-containing products - hypoxia induced by cigarette smoking and smoking byproducts was not even what I was talking about. Which I haven't claimed in this thread. (If I have, please quote where I have indicated that nicotine is the primary cancer causitive agent in cigarette smoke) What I was talking about was the cardiovascular risk, which the AHA feel strongly enough about to state that any education about smoking should be about complete cessation, not "alternatives".

Until the AHA and other major medical bodies change their position, I will not agree with you on the matters I stated, and I will continue to be skeptical about claims about e-cigarettes not being a potential source for harm.

I'll even agree with you that they are not near as harmful as smoking or smokeless tobacco products.

But harmless, I won't agree with. And I'll continue to argue with that with you unless you can prove otherwise.
 
2014-03-26 11:50:39 PM
Elegy, keep in mind that the asshole you are responding to trolls in every thread he's in.  You can't have a real conversation with him.
 
2014-03-26 11:52:57 PM

hardinparamedic: But harmless, I won't agree with. And I'll continue to argue with that with you unless you can prove otherwise.


You'll keep posting pictures from your collection of "guys sucking on dildos" no matter what we prove.
 
2014-03-26 11:54:01 PM

JuggleGeek: Elegy, keep in mind that the asshole you are responding to trolls in every thread he's in.  You can't have a real conversation with him.


Troll calling someone else a troll.

You're so meta, you cheeky hipster you.
 
2014-03-26 11:55:47 PM

JuggleGeek: hardinparamedic: But harmless, I won't agree with. And I'll continue to argue with that with you unless you can prove otherwise.

You'll keep posting pictures from your collection of "guys sucking on dildos" no matter what we prove.


You know, it would really help your argument if you weren't talking about a well known skit from the Whitest Kids You Know lampshading smoking cessation aids.

Several other posters in the thread even knew what it was.
 
2014-03-27 12:01:09 AM
Pointing out that you're a cocksucker who loves pictures of guys sucking on dildoes makes me a troll?

You're the asshole that posted the pics.

You're also lying about how people are vaping oil.
 
2014-03-27 12:03:21 AM

JuggleGeek: Pointing out that you're a cocksucker who loves pictures of guys sucking on dildoes makes me a troll?

You're the asshole that posted the pics.


No, going the gay porn route for a well known comedy skit that was just a simple google search away, and which I even gave the name of in the thread makes you a troll AND a potential homophobe.

JuggleGeek: You're also lying about how people are vaping oil.


And had you actually just called me out over this, rather than going on a bizarre tirade based on your idea of my porn viewing habits, I would have addressed you and said I was mistaken and you were right about what you said.
 
2014-03-27 12:12:21 AM
Funny how you are the asshole posting the pics, but you're claiming that I was the one taking the gay porn route.

Everything you say is a lie, so I can't be surprised that you're calling me a homophobe.
 
2014-03-27 12:13:41 AM

JuggleGeek: Everything you say is a lie, so I can't be surprised that you're calling me a homophobe.


Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, no matter how trollish it is.

Have a great night!
 
2014-03-27 12:24:35 AM

Eddy Gurge: hardinparamedic: E-cigarettes are already showing to be of dubious actual benefit in cessation of smoking in peer reviewed studies. And the fact that many of the manufactured oil brands contain compounds known to do both lung and cardiac injury (diactyl and derivatives from flavoring, and nicotine) is enough to make someone worry about it as an informed consumer

I know I'll regret this in later comments when fully green, but...  I'm skeptical of the cessation studies for several reasons.  The main one would be, did they really want to quit?  I mean really want to. If I were asked in a study run 4 months ago, I'd say "yep, tried them a while back, they suck".  I did try one, just to see back then.  Nope not for me.  As far as oil brands, I agree.  Stay with reputable U.S. manufacturers that give you the "Nutrition Label".  There are plenty of them.  If you're buying something filled in China, or a company that won't divulge (Tru!), you are an idiot.  Nicotine, as far as I know, does not do lung injury.  Enlighten me on that one, as I may have missed that.


Actually some of the Chinese stuff is even safer than a lot of the US stuff. One thing to look for is ISO certification as well as ingredients.
 
2014-03-27 01:11:26 AM

hardinparamedic: I've based my skepticism on articles posted in the JAMA and the position statement of the American Heart and Stroke Association


Great. That's one for you and how many for me?

You keep attacking me on the basis I am trying to outright ban something you enjoy, and which you claim has the potential to reduce the harm caused by cigarette smoking, a claim which has not panned out fully based on peer-reviewed research published  this month in the journal of the American Medical Association, which demonstrated no long term change in smoking behaviors in users in E-Cigarettes when compared with other treatment and smoking cessation aids.

I'm not attacking you because you want to ban something I enjoy. I'm replying to you because you obviously have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

I have never said ecigs are a 100% effective cessation device. In fact, I never said anything about cessation.

I said that there was nothing in ecigs that could cause cancer, and posted links showing that the level of harm caused by the ingredients in cigarettes is virtually nil.


Again. Let me state this. I do not care that you smoke e-cigarettes.

I do not are if you enjoy them or not.

I do not want you to have your favorite smoking replacement banned by the FBI. CIA. DEA. FDA. Or the YMCA.

The only reason I waded into this craphole of an argument was because of the claims made from various people in this thread, namely that e-cigarettes were a miracle smoking cessation aid, that the concerns raised by various professional and medical agencies and organizations were done out of a profit motivation, and that nicotine products were harmless.

In addition, the link you posted about nicotine was about cancer risk. The other link you posted ignores the long term, and documented cardiovascular effects which occur with the use of nicotine-containing products - hypoxia induced by cigarette smoking and smoking byproducts was not even what I was talking about. Which I haven't claimed in this thread. (If I have, please quote where I have indicated that nicotine is the primary cancer causitive agent in cigarette smoke) What I was talking about was the cardiovascular risk, which the AHA feel strongly enough about to state that any education about smoking should be about complete cessation, not "alternatives".

Until the AHA and other major medical bodies change their position, I will not agree with you on the matters I stated, and I will continue to be skeptical about claims about e-cigarettes not being a potential source for harm.

I'll even agree with you that they are not near as harmful as smoking or smokeless tobacco products.

But harmless, I won't agree with. And I'll continue to argue with that with you unless you can prove otherwise.


First, there is so much wrong here is frankly astonishing. What more do you want me to prove? How do you want me to prove it? I've posted numerous links already, that you obviously didn't read more than the abstracts. One of those posts had another 100 citations on the safety of ecigs. One of them showed that the ingredients in ecigs could not contribute to arterial hardening. One of them locked mommies in cages for 12 months, pumped the cages full of one of the main ingredients in vapor, and then autopsied the monkeys; the researchers found no impairment or abnormalities in lung function.

Do you want more? Because it's not going to help if you don't actually mean it when you say you want the information. If you don't read the articles I you request, then it doesn't matter how many I post for you.

So how else am I to "prove" it to you? What standard are you trying to hold me to? I'm honestly curious.

Second, you're the one insisting on this ridiculous standard of "zero harm." A link I posted showed that ecigs contained 1% or less of the toxins of cigarettes. Another link I posted was a study where animals were kept in a cage and saturated with PG vapor for 12 months and then autopsied, and showed no detrimental impairments to lung functions or abnormalities. I also posted a link that showed there was no known mechanism by which ecigs could cause cancer.

Since the research on whether ecigs are a viable CESSATION device in the sense of quitting both smoking and vaping is contradictory, I will concede the point that by switching to vaping you might not give up inhaling nicotine into your lungs. You might very well continue vaping because you find the habit impossible to kick.

I will also concede that nicotine alone may not be harmless. I don't think it is as harmful as you think, but I'll let that one go.

EVEN IF I concede the points above, consider that ecigs contain 1% or less of the same toxins as cigarettes, according to the peer reviewed study I posted. If someone switches to vapor for half of the times they otherwise would have smoked, say when they are working, then they are replacing 50% of their exposure to cigarette smoke - which causes a large amount of harm - with exposed to vapor - something that causes, if not no harm, then much, much less.

There are 4 main ingredients in the juice you vaporize. Two of them are widely used as food additive, in asthma inhalers, and in fog machines already! And have been proven to be biologically inert. One of them is pure, extracted nicotine. And the final, flavoring, is only present in trace amounts. All four of these ingredients are already regulated by the FDA to ensure quality and consistency. Compare, please, to the toxins, tar, and nicotine in cigarettes.

So you do some soul searching and ask yourself this: if you could have given all of those people that smoked themselves to an early grave a substitute that would reduce the harm from smoking, would you? Even knowing that it might do some smaller amount of harm? Or that they might not entirely give up smoking even with it, but might substitute half their smoking time?

Or are you going to sit there and tell me with a straight face that "they might do SOME hard so OMG BAD" when there is an real alternative to smoking that is rapidly growing in popularity? An alternative that might not allow someone to kick the nicotine habit, but it does deliver nicotine in a far safer and controlled manner, using a carrier base that has been proven to be completely biologically inert?

You're seriously telling me that I should avoid ecigarettes or that ecigs are bad because they MIGHT do some harm, despite all peer-reviewed science saying that they are an enormous improvement over the habit they replace?

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you do actually want to perpetuate smoking so you can continue to feel smug about being a paramedic and superior to all of us dummies.
 
2014-03-27 01:13:29 AM
Locked mommies in a cage?

Kinky.

That was supposed to be monkeys.

Me and autocorrect bouts to have fisticuffs.
 
2014-03-27 06:38:17 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: Farkingwhatever: devildog123: My FIL used to cough constantly when he had his 2 pack a day habit.  6 months into his e-cig, no more coughing.  He actually has started running, and is doing a 5K next month.  fark you ALA, e-cigs are awesome.

Same with me. I previously smoked 2 packs a day (insane). I usually coughed like the devil clearing out shiat... now, never.
The negative effects with smoking are due to TOBACCO, NOT NICOTINE. Research this, I dare you farkers.
Same reason why chewing tobacco sucks!

I used to smoke almost 2 packs of these a day (for about 25yrs):

[kraftstobaccoblog.files.wordpress.com image 360x640]

I tried e-cigs, not for me, so I just quit... but then again, I have always been able to do that (which is unusual)... most people can't simply quit.



SWEET. TASTY. DIVINE.
 
2014-03-27 06:50:32 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: Farkingwhatever: devildog123: My FIL used to cough constantly when he had his 2 pack a day habit.  6 months into his e-cig, no more coughing.  He actually has started running, and is doing a 5K next month.  fark you ALA, e-cigs are awesome.

Same with me. I previously smoked 2 packs a day (insane). I usually coughed like the devil clearing out shiat... now, never.
The negative effects with smoking are due to TOBACCO, NOT NICOTINE. Research this, I dare you farkers.
Same reason why chewing tobacco sucks!

I used to smoke almost 2 packs of these a day (for about 25yrs):

[kraftstobaccoblog.files.wordpress.com image 360x640]

I tried e-cigs, not for me, so I just quit... but then again, I have always been able to do that (which is unusual)... most people can't simply quit.


-Since you have ALWAYS been able to do that, that proves you NEVER will quit. Have a nice day!
 
2014-03-27 08:04:25 AM
Well, THIS thread went around the bend pretty quick.
 
2014-03-27 08:56:37 AM

Egoy3k: HotWingConspiracy: Elegy: Amd if you're tired of your coworkers going outside for smoke breaks, what is keeping you from walking outside for a des hair break? Sounds like you have a problem and want to blame your coworkers for it. Classy.

I find not being able to make it through the work day without frequent breaks to use drugs classy as well.

He says as he sips from his coffee mug with a smug sense of satisfaction.


Funny thing, I can drink while I'm working.  I don't have to leave my desk and inconvenience  everyone else due to my selfish habit. Plus I can go forever without coffee and not turn in to a raging moron. And it's easy to be self satisfied when you don't smell like shiat all day.

GoldSpider: HotWingConspiracy: I find not being able to make it through the work day without frequent breaks to use drugs classy as well.

Oh, now it makes sense.  You don't like things like ecigs that can help smokers quit because your emotional wellbeing depends on having a large pool of people to judge.


Actually the numbers say they don't do such a great job as a quitting assistant. And you're the upset emotional one here. I just get to kick back and watch you cry.
 
2014-03-27 12:31:22 PM

GoldSpider: Just like I said, "because feelings".


No, because as medical professionals they have concerns that it acts as a gateway to regular smoking. Nicotine is highly addictive and it is not an unreasonable to believe that use of e-cigs will lead to use of the real thing. Study would be required to ascertain the risk but it doesn't mean they should be unregulated in the meantime.
 
2014-03-27 02:01:04 PM

drxym: GoldSpider: Just like I said, "because feelings".

No, because as medical professionals they have concerns that it acts as a gateway to regular smoking. Nicotine is highly addictive and it is not an unreasonable to believe that use of e-cigs will lead to use of the real thing. Study would be required to ascertain the risk but it doesn't mean they should be unregulated in the meantime.


My threshold for determining the need for regulation is a bit higher than "reasonable belief".
 
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