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(MN Vapers)   Why is the American Lung Assn against e-cigs? Because one of their major donors makes money from smoking cessation drugs   (mnvapers.com) divider line 290
    More: Obvious, American Library Association, March of Dimes, Chantix, electronic cigarette, harm reduction, charity, safety concerns, smoking  
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4585 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Mar 2014 at 12:12 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



290 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-03-25 06:48:35 PM  
My FIL used to cough constantly when he had his 2 pack a day habit.  6 months into his e-cig, no more coughing.  He actually has started running, and is doing a 5K next month.  fark you ALA, e-cigs are awesome.
 
2014-03-25 07:50:19 PM  
Okay, if "Minnesota Vapers Advocacy" says so.
 
2014-03-25 08:07:07 PM  
But e-cigs isn't about quitting smoking; it's about taking our freedom back.  That dwarf Doorf said so.
 
2014-03-25 08:08:24 PM  

Cagey B: Okay, if "Minnesota Vapers Advocacy" says so.


If you follow the link and take a look at the full .pdfs Pfizer gives money to A LOT of different groups. Seriously, the 2013 report is 80 pages long. Taken as a whole the ALA grants don't really stand out all that much.
 
2014-03-25 08:11:11 PM  
[CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]
 
2014-03-25 08:14:10 PM  

Eddy Gurge: [CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]


I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using. DEG causes kidney failure and was found in some eCigs. I'm all for people putting things in their bodies... so long as they know what they're putting in their bodies. The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.
 
2014-03-25 08:15:32 PM  
The profit motive doesn't make any sense here. Members of the American Lung Association, primarily Physicians and their practice employees, stand to make BILLIONS from people from the harm caused by cigarette smoking, tobacco use, second-hand smoke, and even e-cigarettes.

COPD alone cost 49.9 billion dollars in direct and indirect healthcare costs from patients in 2010. In addition, these are patients who will be spending that money for the rest of their natural life, not just for even a few years with smoking cessation aids.

This is nothing but a rehashing of the "Pharma Profit Gambit" that clogs up the intertubes.
 
2014-03-25 08:17:12 PM  

vygramul: I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using


I am particular about where I get my juice.  I settled on 100% VG, 12mg on the nicotine, and typically some kind of fruit flavor, which I would have laughed at 3 months ago.
 
2014-03-25 08:20:17 PM  

vygramul: I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using. DEG causes kidney failure and was found in some eCigs. I'm all for people putting things in their bodies... so long as they know what they're putting in their bodies. The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.


Yep. Go and e-cig it up. Just do it with the understanding that nicotine is toxic and that there is no meaningful regulation of what goes in these things. And don't make bullshiat claims like those in TFA that e-cigs "save lives".

Also, the fact that an advocacy group feels the need to put out a horseshiat-laden press release on the subject should probably raise a couple of red flags for people.
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-03-25 08:20:39 PM  
Is this where I talk about my e-cigarette as if people give a shiat?
 
2014-03-25 08:26:57 PM  
Oh, also? Those e-Cigs? They're not as grand as you claim they are:

From the Journal of the American Medical Association
 
2014-03-25 08:36:23 PM  

vygramul: Eddy Gurge: [CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]

I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using. DEG causes kidney failure and was found in some eCigs. I'm all for people putting things in their bodies... so long as they know what they're putting in their bodies. The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.


Do you understand the absurdity in what you're saying? The people who are switching to e-cigarettes are people who are no longer smoking. There are so many carcinogenic compounds in cigarettes that dismissing e-cigarettes because of some potential health hazard utterly misses the point. Furthermore, if you don't deal with Big Tobacco to get your e-cigarettes, they tell you exactly what is in them. The people I deal with use propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, nicotine extract, and a flavor compound, ingredients on demand, no secrets kept.

The controversy about e-cigarettes exists not because they are harmful, but because of control. It's the same impulse that causes people to get involved in your sex life, or what you eat. A healthy dose of anti-smoking vengeance is included, the whole "we had to deal with you smokers for years, now it's OUR turn!" nonsense. People are demonstrably using e-cigarettes to get off the cancer sticks, they are becoming healthier by the day, and the alleged smell isn't even remotely as cloying as a typical person's deodorant/cologne/perfume and should be deemed a welcome trade-off for people coming back in to work smelling of cigarette smoke or making you smell like ass when you're out and about.

There's simply no legitimate objection to adults using e-smokes. There just isn't.
 
2014-03-25 08:54:46 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: The controversy about e-cigarettes exists not because they are harmful, but because of control.


Some people might disagree with you on that.
 
2014-03-25 08:59:07 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Do you understand the absurdity in what you're saying? The people who are switching to e-cigarettes are people who are no longer smoking. There are so many carcinogenic compounds in cigarettes that dismissing e-cigarettes because of some potential health hazard utterly misses the point. Furthermore, if you don't deal with Big Tobacco to get your e-cigarettes, they tell you exactly what is in them. The people I deal with use propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, nicotine extract, and a flavor compound, ingredients on demand, no secrets kept.

The controversy about e-cigarettes exists not because they are harmful, but because of control. It's the same impulse that causes people to get involved in your sex life, or what you eat. A healthy dose of anti-smoking vengeance is included, the whole "we had to deal with you smokers for years, now it's OUR turn!" nonsense. People are demonstrably using e-cigarettes to get off the cancer sticks, they are becoming healthier by the day, and the alleged smell isn't even remotely as cloying as a typical person's deodorant/cologne/perfume and should be deemed a welcome trade-off for people coming back in to work smelling of cigarette smoke or making you smell like ass when you're out and about.

There's simply no legitimate objection to adults using e-smokes. There just isn't.


You need to step back for a moment and think about the absurdity in what you're saying.

I shouldn't hold the eCig manufacturers responsible for being transparent because what they put in eCigs can't POSSIBLY be as bad as what cigarettes do.

That's like my telling you you shouldn't hate the TSA because the NSA is way worse.
 
2014-03-25 09:15:08 PM  
Maybe because electronic cigarettes aren't good for your lungs either?
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-03-25 09:22:04 PM  
I don't know how wise it is to be inhaling vegetable oil (or whatever) either.  Sure, you can exhale it, but plenty was left behind.  Nicotine is crazy addictive, too.  You're pledging to suck the cock of your favorite vaporizer company until you put it down for good.  I don't think a company marketing a nicotine delivery device outside of gum and patches has that many scruples.  Nicotine is not good for a body.

There are many things that are not good for a body.  Not too many of those things are addictive drugs like nicotine.

Would you be putting vegetable oil in your lungs under regular circumstances?

Smoking sure is great, though.  Dammit!  Why must it be so awful for us!
 
2014-03-25 09:28:18 PM  

vygramul: I shouldn't hold the eCig manufacturers responsible for being transparent because what they put in eCigs can't POSSIBLY be as bad as what cigarettes do.


Actually, from a big-picture perspective, that is correct. Specifically, though, you shouldn't hold e-cigarette manufacturers responsible for anything, you should hold the e-juice manufacturers responsible. It doesn't take much investigation to find manufacturers who are completely transparent. Caveat emptor. Of course, there is no substitute for stopping completely, but the lesser of the two evils is still lesser and thus still a noble goal.

AirForceVet: Maybe because electronic cigarettes aren't good for your lungs either?


So I guess we should just ban them. We wouldn't want smokers to switch to something less destructive, would we? The state sure doesn't, they love taking in that filthy tax money and passing the health consequences onto you through insurance premiums.
 
2014-03-25 09:30:37 PM  

433: Would you be putting vegetable oil in your lungs under regular circumstances?


Vegetable oil is GRAS (Generally regarded as safe) unless it's in droplet concentrations. The bigger problems, from an inhalation standpoint, would be the flavoring (if it contains diactyl, acetoin, or a similar artificial flavoring). Exposure to these compounds over long terms causes "Popcorn Worker Lung", or Bronchopulmonary Obliterans, a universally fatal (without lung transplant) condition.
 
2014-03-25 09:31:15 PM  

433: Would you be putting vegetable oil in your lungs under regular circumstances?


You do it every day. It's called "cooking". Those smells you love in your favorite restaurant? Yep, all kinds of volatile compounds, not the least of which is the oil it was cooked in.
 
2014-03-25 09:32:50 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: So I guess we should just ban them.


I like how anyone saying anything negative about Our Sainted e-Cigs is in favor of banning them, even though no one has said that. You're one of those people who think being criticized is a violation of your right to free speech, aren't you?
 
2014-03-25 09:34:32 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: You do it every day. It's called "cooking". Those smells you love in your favorite restaurant? Yep, all kinds of volatile compounds, not the least of which is the oil it was cooked in.


people.virginia.edu

Paracelsus frowns on your post. Vaporized oils directly from a nozzle in your mouth inhaled into your lungs is quite different from the chance a small amount of oil might accompany steam from a skillet.
 
2014-03-25 09:35:57 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: The state sure doesn't, they love taking in that filthy tax money and passing the health consequences onto you through insurance premiums.


Between this, and the smoking cessation patch/pill manufacturers, that about sums it up right now.  While milk isn't necessarily good for an adult, I'll have a glass here and there.  I don't care if the cup is made in China, but I sure as hell care where the milk comes from.
 
2014-03-25 09:37:25 PM  

Cagey B: Adolf Oliver Nipples: So I guess we should just ban them.

I like how anyone saying anything negative about Our Sainted e-Cigs is in favor of banning them, even though no one has said that. You're one of those people who think being criticized is a violation of your right to free speech, aren't you?


No, I'm not. But that's the endgame, isn't it? Set the stage by creating an atmosphere of doubt, intimate that they are just as hazardous as that which they are replacing, and then regulate them out of existence. The product may be different but the playbook is the same.
 
2014-03-25 09:39:10 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: intimate that they are just as hazardous as that which they are replacing, and then regulate them out of existence.


Who, exactly, has said this?
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-03-25 09:40:10 PM  
Thanks, hardinparamedic. I wasn't clear on that at all.

Why must it be so hard to sound genuine in forums?

I remember when Popcorn Worker's Lung first hit the radar.  It was bizarre.  I certainly hope that manufacturers of e-cig oil are following some sore of honor code.  I've read that it is best to stick to domestic oil, but even then, it's not a very bright prospect.  I think it would be wise for there to be a regulatory agency or board for oil producers, lest there be an epidemic problem down the road.

Legal marijuana poses a similar problem.  I'm curious how the Colorado/Washington experiment will unfold.  For the sake of a flamewar, though, I'm not trying to open that one up for discussion...
 
2014-03-25 09:40:21 PM  

hardinparamedic: Paracelsus frowns on your post. Vaporized oils directly from a nozzle in your mouth inhaled into your lungs is quite different from the chance a small amount of oil might accompany steam from a skillet.


You have never worked in a restaurant, I take it. Want to see something scary? Pull off a wall covering, something that's been mounted on the wall for a few years. The contrast between that and the rest of the wall will blow your mind.

The air is thick with cooking oil. A little bit? A hell of a lot more than you might imagine.
 
2014-03-25 09:41:10 PM  
I was also a two pack a day for 35 years etc, etc. I've been on e-cigs exclusively since mid October last year.

Many people use e-cigs to help quit or cut back on cigarettes. However, the e-cig proponents almost always point out the fact that they aren't for smoking cessation. They're still working to get FDA approval for that.

E-cigs have far fewer harmful substances than regular cigarettes do. I can understand why more research should be done regarding long term usage, but this alone strongly indicates that vaping is far less harmful than smoking. The user also has control over what goes into the juice they use, smokers don't have much choice at all.

E-cigs are usually much less expensive than regular cigarettes. I'm saving over $200 a month vaping instead of smoking. I'm sure that, over time, the various governments will start applying sin taxes. But until then the savings are significant.

All in all, I don't see what the argument is about.
 
2014-03-25 09:45:23 PM  

Philbb: I was also a two pack a day for 35 years etc, etc. I've been on e-cigs exclusively since mid October last year.


Rock on sir, good for you!
 
2014-03-25 09:47:04 PM  

hardinparamedic: Adolf Oliver Nipples: intimate that they are just as hazardous as that which they are replacing, and then regulate them out of existence.

Who, exactly, has said this?


STUDY IT OUT SHEEPLE
 
2014-03-25 09:49:06 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: You have never worked in a restaurant, I take it. Want to see something scary? Pull off a wall covering, something that's been mounted on the wall for a few years. The contrast between that and the rest of the wall will blow your mind.

The air is thick with cooking oil. A little bit? A hell of a lot more than you might imagine.


Not really, no. My mother managed a restaurant for Marriot for almost twenty years. Most people don't stand directly under the oil and take nice, big lung inflating breaths, was my point  AON. 

E-cigarettes are already showing to be of dubious actual benefit in cessation of smoking in peer reviewed studies. And the fact that many of the manufactured oil brands contain compounds known to do both lung and cardiac injury (diactyl and derivatives from flavoring, and nicotine) is enough to make someone worry about it as an informed consumer.

I don't think any legitimate medical body is claiming that they are as harmful as an actual cigarettes or cigars. I think what they are doing is calling for caution and investigation into many of the claims being made.
 
2014-03-25 10:01:12 PM  

hardinparamedic: E-cigarettes are already showing to be of dubious actual benefit in cessation of smoking in peer reviewed studies. And the fact that many of the manufactured oil brands contain compounds known to do both lung and cardiac injury (diactyl and derivatives from flavoring, and nicotine) is enough to make someone worry about it as an informed consumer


I know I'll regret this in later comments when fully green, but...  I'm skeptical of the cessation studies for several reasons.  The main one would be, did they really want to quit?  I mean really want to. If I were asked in a study run 4 months ago, I'd say "yep, tried them a while back, they suck".  I did try one, just to see back then.  Nope not for me.  As far as oil brands, I agree.  Stay with reputable U.S. manufacturers that give you the "Nutrition Label".  There are plenty of them.  If you're buying something filled in China, or a company that won't divulge (Tru!), you are an idiot.  Nicotine, as far as I know, does not do lung injury.  Enlighten me on that one, as I may have missed that.
 
2014-03-25 10:02:45 PM  

hardinparamedic: I don't think any legitimate medical body is claiming that they are as harmful as an actual cigarettes or cigars. I think what they are doing is calling for caution and investigation into many of the claims being made.


And that's fine. I'm all for that. I think that in the end the conclusion will be that e-cigarettes will be seen as a much better alternative to smoking tobacco cigarettes. Of course, there will always be people with an interest in making them out to be the worst thing on Earth, so it could be that no consensus will ever be reached.

But this isn't just a medical issue, this is also a political issue, and those people are calling for heavy regulation and bans. That, more than anything else, is what gets me fired up. E-cigarettes are not tobacco cigarettes and should not be treated as such.
 
2014-03-25 10:03:19 PM  

Prey4reign: dwarf Doorf


try saying that fast six times
 
2014-03-25 10:18:38 PM  
Oh well, I'm out for the night.  Hope this one doesn't devolve into...never mind, Fark.
 
2014-03-25 10:19:42 PM  

Eddy Gurge: 'm skeptical of the cessation studies for several reasons.  The main one would be, did they really want to quit?  I mean really want to. If I were asked in a study run 4 months ago, I'd say "yep, tried them a while back, they suck".  I did try one, just to see back then.  Nope not for me


The JAMA study was JUST published, so I'm going to see if I can pull it up on SpringerLink using my work intranet and get the whole text of the study's methodology. I would think that they would have controlled for that.
 
2014-03-25 10:23:31 PM  
The American Lung Assassin
 
2014-03-25 10:33:16 PM  
I'm surprised that the tobacco industry hasn't had everyone involved with e-cigs killed long ago.
 
2014-03-25 10:42:55 PM  
I don't see many electronic cigarette users quitting nicotine. Rather they use the e-cigs in places where they can't smoke.

So they're still hooked to a harmful drug and not quitting.
 
2014-03-25 10:50:45 PM  

AirForceVet: I don't see many electronic cigarette users quitting nicotine. Rather they use the e-cigs in places where they can't smoke.

So they're still hooked to a harmful drug and not quitting.


Right but e-cigs don't have tobacco and all the other carcinogens that regular cigarettes have.

I don't smoke at all but I know people who have quit smoking regular cigarettes because of e-cigs and it's a lot less people I have to deal with second hand smoke from.
 
2014-03-25 10:55:06 PM  

AirForceVet: I don't see many electronic cigarette users quitting nicotine. Rather they use the e-cigs in places where they can't smoke.

So they're still hooked to a harmful drug and not quitting.


I don't know about "many", but my anecdotal evidence (which is a kind of evidence after all) is that some of the people I know that have switched have then found it much easier to cut down, first by reducing the amount of nicotine in their juice, then cutting it out completely until they're just smoking flavor.
 
2014-03-25 11:04:40 PM  

Mugato: I'm surprised that the tobacco industry hasn't had everyone involved with e-cigs killed long ago.


It's the same reason Gillette didn't kill the guy who invented the disposable razor.

E-cigs are MUCH more profitable than tobacco. And you don't even need nicotine in them. People just want to smoke. Give them healthy(er) smoke and they'll suck it all up for as much as you can charge 'em.
 
2014-03-25 11:11:38 PM  

doglover: E-cigs are MUCH more profitable than tobacco. And you don't even need nicotine in them. People just want to smoke. Give them healthy(er) smoke and they'll suck it all up for as much as you can charge 'em.


Not really the same thing, The tobacco industry has a different interest.
 
2014-03-25 11:12:40 PM  

AirForceVet: I don't see many electronic cigarette users quitting nicotine. Rather they use the e-cigs in places where they can't smoke.

So they're still hooked to a harmful drug and not quitting.


I quit smoking entirely, then reduced the nicotine to 0. In about 4-5 months.

So, while it might not have been more statistically effective than just quitting cold, it helped me, because God knows I tried quitting. Didn't want to start either, but for a stupid roommate. I got enough second-hand smoke to give me headaches if I didn't smoke.

I don't think anyone who vapes would be averse to research on the safety of vaporized vegetable glycerin, PG, or various other additives. I think what they're averse to is the recent onslaught of proposed legislation and talking heads beating on about how it's far more dangerous than smoking. Who wouldn't get a tad defensive of the happy thing that got them off of gawdawful tobacco?
 
2014-03-25 11:22:36 PM  

Mugato: doglover: E-cigs are MUCH more profitable than tobacco. And you don't even need nicotine in them. People just want to smoke. Give them healthy(er) smoke and they'll suck it all up for as much as you can charge 'em.

Not really the same thing, The tobacco industry has a different interest.


A different interest than making money?

Seriously, vapes are the best thing to happen to them in a century. What they have to do is seize the day and make official marboro juice and stuff like that. This will normalize smoking as an activity and leave the door open to graduation to real, high end tobacco products like pipe tobacco, cigars, and stuff.

Cigarettes are really the problem. Tobacco itself ain't so bad in moderation, just like everything else.
 
2014-03-25 11:43:27 PM  
Telling other people that they can't or shouldn't do something is a very profitable industry in the US.  Thank God money equals speech.
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-03-26 12:08:52 AM  
e-cigs are a gateway to cigarettes.  Kids are going to puff on an e-cig or a vaporizer and get curious about the real deal.  All it needs is big tobacco getting their shiat in gear to have their hands in all the pockets again.  A marlboro man made by vaporizing is as good as one made through conventional cigarettes.
 
2014-03-26 12:15:36 AM  
threadjack
 
2014-03-26 12:15:38 AM  

doglover: What they have to do is seize the day and make official marboro juice and stuff like that.


they could recycle people's dip cups
 
2014-03-26 12:16:02 AM  

Eddy Gurge: [CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]


From Lung disease to a new disease. If you use that shait as much as you did cigarettes you'll have other problems. I know the article is about the ALA and Lung Cancer, but you are niave if you think this is some magic cure. You won't get the effects but those kids starting at 18 will.

/I know, who cares about them amiright!
 
2014-03-26 12:17:10 AM  
The ALA doesn't like e-cigs because people who use them quit smoking. Healthy people don't need an ALA.
 
2014-03-26 12:18:30 AM  

rockforever: If you use that shait as much as you did cigarettes you'll have other problems.


Because you say so, eh? The thing about long-term e-cig usage data is that it doesn't exist. What you say is possible but is hardly a forgone conclusion at this time. What research backs up your position?
 
2014-03-26 12:19:42 AM  

433: e-cigs are a gateway to cigarettes.  Kids are going to puff on an e-cig or a vaporizer and get curious about the real deal.  All it needs is big tobacco getting their shiat in gear to have their hands in all the pockets again.  A marlboro man made by vaporizing is as good as one made through conventional cigarettes.


You are either a troll or so stupid you should just go run to your nearest highway and play in traffic, idiot.
 
2014-03-26 12:20:58 AM  
I said before I quit, and I'll say it again after 2 years being nicotine free...sometimes you just need that nicotine pickme up. The world.is a safer place because of it. I'm just happy ri see people have "safer" alternatives. Combustion is bad.
 
2014-03-26 12:22:53 AM  
It's sad to think the ALA would rather have me die of lung cancer. This pathetic organization needs to go.
 
2014-03-26 12:23:39 AM  
The kids in my neighborhood agree - sucking down nicotine with fruit flavors is waaaay cooler. Sure, some folks use them to quit smoking, but as everyone in my neighborhood is marketing them to teens and young adults (who aren't actually taking up smoking), it's clear that what we're seeing is a push by nicotine producers to aggressively open a new market for their addictive substance. Sure, it's more socially acceptable than smoking, but so is just about every addictive drug in pill form, too.

"Improved delivery vehicle for nicotine", not "nicotine cessation device." Not when more folks are getting hooked on nicotine. It's not fooling anyone.
 
2014-03-26 12:23:57 AM  

433: Is this where I talk about my e-cigarette as if people give a shiat?


no. this is where you go to act like you don't give a shiat , and think people give a shiat that you don't give a shiat, even though you gave enough of a shiat to post.
 
2014-03-26 12:27:59 AM  

untaken_name: rockforever: If you use that shait as much as you did cigarettes you'll have other problems.

Because you say so, eh? The thing about long-term e-cig usage data is that it doesn't exist. What you say is possible but is hardly a forgone conclusion at this time. What research backs up your position?


Scroll up the page.
 
2014-03-26 12:28:37 AM  
Is E-Cigs just vaping tobacco?  That would be better than smoking it.

No I do not want to do any research. I have my own crap to deal with.
 
2014-03-26 12:30:49 AM  

hardinparamedic: The profit motive doesn't make any sense here. Members of the American Lung Association, primarily Physicians and their practice employees, stand to make BILLIONS from people from the harm caused by cigarette smoking, tobacco use, second-hand smoke, and even e-cigarettes.

COPD alone cost 49.9 billion dollars in direct and indirect healthcare costs from patients in 2010. In addition, these are patients who will be spending that money for the rest of their natural life, not just for even a few years with smoking cessation aids.

This is nothing but a rehashing of the "Pharma Profit Gambit" that clogs up the intertubes.


"Doesn't make any sense"

"stand to make BILLIONS from people"

Welcome to 2014
 
2014-03-26 12:31:26 AM  

rbuzby: Is E-Cigs just vaping tobacco?  That would be better than smoking it.

No I do not want to do any research. I have my own crap to deal with.


no tobacco. just nicotine.
 
2014-03-26 12:31:34 AM  
Adolf Oliver Nipples: "Do you understand the absurdity in what you're saying? The people who are switching to e-cigarettes are people who are no longer smoking."

Except when you watch the black and white ads with puffs of vapor, you get the funny feeling that maybe they are trying to target new smokers.

Still, if they can prove there is no risk of second hand smoke, I say let them have them- but they should fall under the same rules for advertising, except maybe let cigarette companies put adds on cigarette packages to get people to switch.
 
2014-03-26 12:31:50 AM  
ECigs still needs more research and studies on their effects to users and those around them.

That's all I'm saying on the subject, the usual group of deniers can pound sand.
 
2014-03-26 12:33:26 AM  

log_jammin: rbuzby: Is E-Cigs just vaping tobacco?  That would be better than smoking it.

No I do not want to do any research. I have my own crap to deal with.

no tobacco. just nicotine.


well, nicotine, and other stuff.
 
2014-03-26 12:34:18 AM  
I honestly don't give a fark what other people put in their own bodies.  But, as a PSA, the vast majority of smoking-related illness/death isn't lung cancer/emphysema/etc.  It's heart disease caused from years of stimulant use (nicotine).  e-cigs won't prevent your heart attack.  On the other hand, as a non-smoker, I love e-cigs, since I don't have to breathe other people's smoke - I really appreciate the courtesy.  So, yeah, good luck with that.
 
2014-03-26 12:34:26 AM  
Tried this out about two years ago and a month later I put it in a drawer and forgot about it.

Not as good as an actual cigarette (even if it is better for you. Forget about smoking them indoors, unless you are a big fan of dirty looks. Oh, and did I mention that I looked like a bozo puffing on a plastic tube.

Not for me. Although I'm sure I'll try them again someday.
 
2014-03-26 12:34:28 AM  
PFFT I quit cold turkey 1st try. The rest of you are pussies with no will power.
 
2014-03-26 12:34:44 AM  

log_jammin: rbuzby: Is E-Cigs just vaping tobacco?  That would be better than smoking it.

No I do not want to do any research. I have my own crap to deal with.

no tobacco. just nicotine.


Thanks.
 
2014-03-26 12:36:29 AM  

HoratioGates: Adolf Oliver Nipples: "Do you understand the absurdity in what you're saying? The people who are switching to e-cigarettes are people who are no longer smoking."

Except when you watch the black and white ads with puffs of vapor, you get the funny feeling that maybe they are trying to target new smokers.


That's what I think too. In fact, the only two people that I know who vape were not smokers before they started vaping. They both went to work for vape stores/kiosks and then picked up the product and habit. Obviously two is not a huge information sample, and I don't know a lot of smokers, so it could be that I'm not hanging out with the right people to make a call on this one. But I do know for a fact that at least some people are going about it that way, from non-smoker to full time vaping, instead of using them to quit cigarettes.
 
2014-03-26 12:38:18 AM  
Very interesting revelation, considering the high number of Farkers who mistakenly believe the e-cig to be a smoking cessation device.
 
2014-03-26 12:38:21 AM  

devildog123: My FIL used to cough constantly when he had his 2 pack a day habit.  6 months into his e-cig, no more coughing.  He actually has started running, and is doing a 5K next month.  fark you ALA, e-cigs are awesome.


E-cigs are bettter than regular cigarettes, but they still will increase your risk of heart attack and stroke by a crapload. Nicotine is what does the cardiac damage in cigarettes, and as many smokers die from heart disease and stroke as lung cancer. So, if you're a nicotine addict, e-cigs are better than tobacco, but they're still not "awesome." Completely quitting, that's awesome.
 
2014-03-26 12:39:15 AM  
I hope the vaporization thing from the tobacco companies doesn't confuse and mal-affect the marijuana legalization effort.
 
2014-03-26 12:39:54 AM  

rockforever: Eddy Gurge: [CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]

From Lung disease to a new disease. If you use that shait as much as you did cigarettes you'll have other problems. I know the article is about the ALA and Lung Cancer, but you are niave if you think this is some magic cure. You won't get the effects but those kids starting at 18 will.

/I know, who cares about them amiright!


encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
 
2014-03-26 12:40:54 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Very interesting revelation, considering the high number of Farkers who mistakenly believe the e-cig to be a smoking cessation device.


And you consider it a ____?
 
2014-03-26 12:44:51 AM  
Typical smoker conspiracy theories.

The ALA doesn't like smoking OR e-cigs. Personally, I don't care, but I really don't like vapers puffing on public transit (i.e. BART in San Francisco). They need to be regulated. I would rejoice if they destroy big tobacco. I just don't want my kids to get hooked on easy nicotine.
 
2014-03-26 12:45:11 AM  

433: I don't know how wise it is to be inhaling vegetable oil


The bolded portion should have prevented the rest.
 
2014-03-26 12:46:13 AM  
All I know it has got to be some nefarious reason like this. It can't possibly be because they're bad for you in ways not fully understood yet. Nope, it must be some sort of conspiracy involving the highest levels of government, money laundering, the greys, and possibly Elvis.
 
2014-03-26 12:46:39 AM  

Kuta: Typical smoker conspiracy theories.

The ALA doesn't like smoking OR e-cigs. Personally, I don't care, but I really don't like vapers puffing on public transit (i.e. BART in San Francisco). They need to be regulated. I would rejoice if they destroy big tobacco. I just don't want my kids to get hooked on easy nicotine.


Most vapers I speak or interact with on the web want regulation, so long as it is about age restrictions, and quality control.
 
2014-03-26 12:46:52 AM  

nyseattitude: The My Little Pony Killer: Very interesting revelation, considering the high number of Farkers who mistakenly believe the e-cig to be a smoking cessation device.

And you consider it a ____?


It's an alternative nicotine delivery mechanism, one that satisfies a lot of the psychological cravings of cigarette smokers. Instead of quitting smoking completely because it's becoming socially unacceptable, you can switch to vaping and continue to double or quadruple your risk of heart attack and stroke. Also, as smoking is becoming uncool with the kidz, vaping nicotine fills that essential hook-them-young niche. It even comes in bubble gum flavor!
 
2014-03-26 12:46:58 AM  

Eddy Gurge: [CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]


Eddy, I wish you all the best. Keep going! Keep on accomplishing goals. Your story is inspiring.
 
2014-03-26 12:48:10 AM  

Kevin Lomax: All I know it has got to be some nefarious reason like this. It can't possibly be because they're bad for you in ways not fully understood yet. Nope, it must be some sort of conspiracy involving the highest levels of government, money laundering, the greys, and possibly Elvis.


If they keep looking, they might find a reason that they are "bad". So far, they don't have much but FUD.
 
2014-03-26 12:48:12 AM  

AirForceVet: I don't see many electronic cigarette users quitting nicotine. Rather they use the e-cigs in places where they can't smoke.

So they're still hooked to a harmful drug and not quitting.


While nicotine is harmfull in certain dosages, regular cigarettes and e-cigarettes have similar amounts of nicotine.

When I started using e-cigarettes regularly, I used juice with a nicotine level similar to full flavored tobacco. I have, since, gone to a juice that has a nicotine level equivalent to a light cigarette. But the overall experience i.e. throat hit, volume of vapor, etc... is the same as the full flavored cigarettes.

I plan to go to juice with an even lower nicotine level. I hope to get to a product with zero nicotine within the next 11-16 months.

But, regardless of any of that, I'm happy to have gone beyond all of the other crap found in regular cigarettes and only be dealing with the nicotine content as a serious health concern.
 
2014-03-26 12:48:16 AM  

vygramul: ......... The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.


THANK YOU.
 
2014-03-26 12:50:40 AM  
I quit smoking by moving to snus and dip because theybare less harmful than cigs...even though they have their own risks

Tried a blu cig. Nevervwent back to dip OR cigs. The coffee and tobacco flavored blu cigs are farking good..no reason to ever go back to tobacco.
 
2014-03-26 12:52:47 AM  

LazyMedia: It even comes in bubble gum flavor!


Because only children like "sweet". Sugar is more addictive and destructive. Better ban it.
 
2014-03-26 12:53:07 AM  

hardinparamedic: Adolf Oliver Nipples: The controversy about e-cigarettes exists not because they are harmful, but because of control.

Some people might disagree with you on that.


Yeah..ONE harmful chemical vs 4,000,harmful ones.

Gee...lemme think which is better....
 
2014-03-26 12:55:33 AM  
At least they ate cutting back on the discredited secondhand smoke bs campaign that makes anti-vacc seem credible.
I hate smokers too, but without them who will subsidize our houses? Fat people nearly rioted in NY when told to slow it down.
 
2014-03-26 12:55:57 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: hardinparamedic: Adolf Oliver Nipples: The controversy about e-cigarettes exists not because they are harmful, but because of control.

Some people might disagree with you on that.

Yeah..ONE harmful chemical vs 4,000,harmful ones.

Gee...lemme think which is better....


NO NEW FIX OLD!
 
2014-03-26 01:06:19 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: I quit smoking by moving to snus and dip because theybare less harmful than cigs...even though they have their own risks

Tried a blu cig. Nevervwent back to dip OR cigs. The coffee and tobacco flavored blu cigs are farking good..no reason to ever go back to tobacco.


www.reactiongifs.us
 
2014-03-26 01:07:48 AM  
Your blog sucks.
 
2014-03-26 01:08:15 AM  

vygramul: Eddy Gurge: [CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]

I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using. DEG causes kidney failure and was found in some eCigs. I'm all for people putting things in their bodies... so long as they know what they're putting in their bodies. The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.


The free market says if you're so concerned about what's in them and other people share your concern, you've got a hell of a business opportunity selling lab analyses of various ecig formulas. Just a thought.
 
2014-03-26 01:12:08 AM  
When e cigs finally caught up to being worth it - i thru away my ashtray! (20 YEAR smoker) started with disposables and then switched to  INNOKIN it has been 9 months and have NO reason nor inclination to got back to being the smelly smoker.

 The only drawback that I can see is... when you smoke a cig It goes OUT - which lets you know you are done for one cig - with vaping NO such thing. And I FEEL so much better!!!!!
one more
http://ecigarettereviewed.com/top-20-rebuttals-to-win-an-e-cigarette -d ebate

I know that teens that vape that have NEVER smoked... which I find disturbing... what is that about??
 
2014-03-26 01:14:41 AM  

nyseattitude: hardinparamedic: The profit motive doesn't make any sense here. Members of the American Lung Association, primarily Physicians and their practice employees, stand to make BILLIONS from people from the harm caused by cigarette smoking, tobacco use, second-hand smoke, and even e-cigarettes.

COPD alone cost 49.9 billion dollars in direct and indirect healthcare costs from patients in 2010. In addition, these are patients who will be spending that money for the rest of their natural life, not just for even a few years with smoking cessation aids.

This is nothing but a rehashing of the "Pharma Profit Gambit" that clogs up the intertubes.

"Doesn't make any sense"

"stand to make BILLIONS from people"

Welcome to 2014


Hello folks. Posts like this happen every day on FARK.com. Sadly, they are all too common examples of people who failed reading comprehension. But you can be part of the solution, not the problem. For only five bucks a month, you can supply basic reading material to these poor posters to improve their ability to understand complex messages being conveyed.

Won't you please help?
 
2014-03-26 01:20:28 AM  

Cagey B: vygramul: I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using. DEG causes kidney failure and was found in some eCigs. I'm all for people putting things in their bodies... so long as they know what they're putting in their bodies. The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.

Yep. Go and e-cig it up. Just do it with the understanding that nicotine is toxic and that there is no meaningful regulation of what goes in these things. And don't make bullshiat claims like those in TFA that e-cigs "save lives".

Also, the fact that an advocacy group feels the need to put out a horseshiat-laden press release on the subject should probably raise a couple of red flags for people.


http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/is-nicotine-really-any-diffe re nt-than-caffeine-20130620
 
2014-03-26 01:21:34 AM  

hjy6: I know that teens that vape that have NEVER smoked... which I find disturbing... what is that about??


Kids trying something that looks like smoking, but it's not going to kill them.
 
2014-03-26 01:26:40 AM  

s2s2s2: ... Sugar is more addictive and destructive.


FWIW, your LGT an advertisement, not a peer-reviewed paper in a scientific journal.

And sugar is found everywhere in nature.  Not just in fruits and dairy, but also most species of wild lollipop.
 
2014-03-26 01:28:06 AM  

s2s2s2: hjy6: I know that teens that vape that have NEVER smoked... which I find disturbing... what is that about??

Kids trying something that looks like smoking, but it's not going to kill them.


EXACTLY
 
2014-03-26 01:28:53 AM  

vygramul: Eddy Gurge: [CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]

I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using. DEG causes kidney failure and was found in some eCigs. I'm all for people putting things in their bodies... so long as they know what they're putting in their bodies. The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.


I know what's in my e-liquid. DEG was found, as a trace impurity, in ONE prefilled cartridge out of 100 sampled in an early FDA study.

The main ingredient in e-cig liquid is propylene glycol, which is GRAS. When inhaled, it is converted by the body to lactic acid and excreted as urine. It has been studied extensively.

The only reasons for any backlashes or bans are that e-cigs do closely resemble a product that has been proven to kill people (cigarettes) and legislation is easier than education -- especially when several large companies stand to lose the cut they've been taking by perpetuating a public health problem.
 
2014-03-26 01:30:45 AM  
Contrary to popular belief, nicotine is not the cancer-causing agent in cigarettes. A two year study on lab mice found there to be   when given in its pure form by inhalation. If nicotine were the culprit in cigarettes, we're pretty sure the FDA would never have approved any NRT gums, patches or inhalers. It is still poisonous when ingested in large quantities so make sure your e-liquids are used properly and kept out of reach of children.
 
2014-03-26 01:32:07 AM  

hardinparamedic: Oh, also? Those e-Cigs? They're not as grand as you claim they are:

From the Journal of the American Medical Association


I can has Link to full article?
 
2014-03-26 01:34:08 AM  

autopsybeverage: I can has Link to full article?


I can't even get access, and I have a SpringerLink account at work. :(
 
2014-03-26 01:34:20 AM  
you now what  http://casaa.org/
 
2014-03-26 01:34:51 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: I quit smoking by moving to snus and dip because theybare less harmful than cigs...even though they have their own risks


they're still a cancer risk.

having said that, I was able to quite all together using snus. I just started with the high nicotine ones, and lowered down to the ones with the lowest nicotine. then two weeks of the patch, and I was off of nicotine all together. made it 3 years so far.
 
2014-03-26 01:41:11 AM  
 
2014-03-26 01:41:41 AM  

433: I don't know how wise it is to be inhaling vegetable oil (or whatever) either.  Sure, you can exhale it, but plenty was left behind.  Nicotine is crazy addictive, too.  You're pledging to suck the cock of your favorite vaporizer company until you put it down for good.  I don't think a company marketing a nicotine delivery device outside of gum and patches has that many scruples.  Nicotine is not good for a body.

There are many things that are not good for a body.  Not too many of those things are addictive drugs like nicotine.

Would you be putting vegetable oil in your lungs under regular circumstances?

Smoking sure is great, though.  Dammit!  Why must it be so awful for us!


The physical addiction to nicotine only lasts 3 days... it's the psychological addiction to the smoke and the ritual that lasts for so long.

There is 0% nicotine e-cig liquid that is sold at all e-cig shops that I've frequented.
 
2014-03-26 01:43:23 AM  

433: I don't know how wise it is to be inhaling vegetable oil (or whatever) either.  Sure, you can exhale it, but plenty was left behind.  Nicotine is crazy addictive, too.  You're pledging to suck the cock of your favorite vaporizer company until you put it down for good.  I don't think a company marketing a nicotine delivery device outside of gum and patches has that many scruples.  Nicotine is not good for a body.

There are many things that are not good for a body.  Not too many of those things are addictive drugs like nicotine.

Would you be putting vegetable oil in your lungs under regular circumstances?

Smoking sure is great, though.  Dammit!  Why must it be so awful for us!


Before you go white-knighting the gum snd patch manufacturers, please consider that 98% of smokers who attempt to quit using these two methods will be active consumers of cigarettes again within two years of the quit attempt, and they know it. They are selling snake oil.
 
2014-03-26 01:47:38 AM  

hjy6: ok i like this  http://video.foxnews.com/v/3157681804001/gutfeld-the-stupidity-of-ban n ing-e-cigarettes/#sp=show-clips


It's not really water vapor. It's a kind of oil.

This guy might be the most punchable man I've ever seen on TV, but it's sad that he's somehow come down on the right side of an issue dispute being totally wrong.
 
2014-03-26 01:55:00 AM  

doglover: hjy6: ok i like this  http://video.foxnews.com/v/3157681804001/gutfeld-the-stupidity-of-ban n ing-e-cigarettes/#sp=show-clips

It's not really water vapor. It's a kind of oil.

This guy might be the most punchable man I've ever seen on TV, but it's sad that he's somehow come down on the right side of an issue dispute being totally wrong.


That "oil" (which is used in hospitals) is FDA approved so there's that - and he is not wrong about politicians - they are bought by tobacco
 
2014-03-26 01:59:20 AM  
 
2014-03-26 02:02:02 AM  

hjy6: That "oil" (which is used in hospitals) is FDA approved so there's that


FDA approved for nebulized inhalation?
 
2014-03-26 02:06:08 AM  

Enigmamf: hjy6: That "oil" (which is used in hospitals) is FDA approved so there's that

FDA approved for nebulized inhalation?


yes and used in smoke machines at the Disco
 
2014-03-26 02:07:15 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: oil


hardinparamedic: 433: Would you be putting vegetable oil in your lungs under regular circumstances?

Vegetable oil is GRAS (Generally regarded as safe) unless it's in droplet concentrations. The bigger problems, from an inhalation standpoint, would be the flavoring (if it contains diactyl, acetoin, or a similar artificial flavoring). Exposure to these compounds over long terms causes "Popcorn Worker Lung", or Bronchopulmonary Obliterans, a universally fatal (without lung transplant) condition.


Why do you keep calling it oil??
The liquid you put in an e cigarette is nicotine suspended in vegetable glycerin (not an oil) and propylene glycol (not an oil) and flavour. You are literally beating up the same straw man.
 
2014-03-26 02:09:17 AM  

hardinparamedic: autopsybeverage: I can has Link to full article?

I can't even get access, and I have a SpringerLink account at work. :(


Well that sucks. :( I've been an ecig user for three years after smoking for 17... and I try to read everything I can on the topic, pro or con.
 
2014-03-26 02:09:55 AM  

fusillade762: Cagey B: Okay, if "Minnesota Vapers Advocacy" says so.

If you follow the link and take a look at the full .pdfs Pfizer gives money to A LOT of different groups. Seriously, the 2013 report is 80 pages long. Taken as a whole the ALA grants don't really stand out all that much.


Nearly a million dollars a year from just one company doesn't say much?

Personally, I'd be curious to see the ALA's 2013 incoming donations report. How many companies--pharmaceutical and tobacco--are donating how much annually? How much is being donated by other organizations that are so virulently anti-vaping? I'd be very curious to know if that report speaks more loudly to you than Pfizer's million dollar whisper does.
 
2014-03-26 02:10:33 AM  
The American Lung Association and the American Cancer Society and similar groups get a lot of their funding via cigarette taxes.

So if something like e-cigs are getting a lot of people off the cigs, they have to oppose it.  If everyone switched, their funding would be gone.

They don't care if people die, they care about their funding.

hjy6: I know that teens that vape that have NEVER smoked... which I find disturbing... what is that about??


Instead of starting to smoke, they started vaping.  Beats the hell out of smoking for several decades first, the way I did.
 
2014-03-26 02:11:09 AM  
 
2014-03-26 02:11:30 AM  

vygramul: Eddy Gurge: [CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]

I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using. DEG causes kidney failure and was found in some eCigs. I'm all for people putting things in their bodies... so long as they know what they're putting in their bodies. The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.


I make my own e-jucies, but the majority of them ingredients that are found in store bought juices are common in most toothpastes.  Food grade vegetable glycerine, food grade polyprop. glycol, and food grade flavorings.  You can choose to add nicotine if you like.  I don't anymore.
 
2014-03-26 02:12:36 AM  
I have Green Lung.

But I will not quit the dank.
 
2014-03-26 02:14:16 AM  

Cagey B: Just do it with the understanding that nicotine is toxic and that there is no meaningful regulation of what goes in these things. And don't make bullshiat claims like those in TFA that e-cigs "save lives".


Nicotine is toxic?  That's technically true.  Given enough of it, concentrated enough, fast enough, it could kill.

But it's misleading, because in actual fact, it doesn't kill.  If you go looking for evidence of someone dying via nicotine, the only thing you'll find is a suicide. It isn't really as toxic as you are pretending.
 
2014-03-26 02:15:58 AM  

vygramul: Eddy Gurge: [CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]

I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using. DEG causes kidney failure and was found in some eCigs. I'm all for people putting things in their bodies... so long as they know what they're putting in their bodies. The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.


The PV variety that use e-juice generally list the ingredients in the juice. The label on mine says the following: Propylene glycol (USP grade), vegetable glycerine (USP grade), flavors, water, nicotine.

The flavors in mine are apple and cinnamon red hot. Not too hard to research precisely what ingredients make up those flavors.

Propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine are in a great many foods and almost every medication on the market.

Incidentally, that is why almost no one recommends e-cigs like blu (owned by a cigarette company) or the ones you get at 7-11 and Wal-Mart--no one knows WTF the Chinese and/or the cigarette companies are putting in them. With actual personal vaporators that use a tank and juice, you know exactly what's in it.
 
2014-03-26 02:19:13 AM  

JuggleGeek: Cagey B: Just do it with the understanding that nicotine is toxic and that there is no meaningful regulation of what goes in these things. And don't make bullshiat claims like those in TFA that e-cigs "save lives".

Nicotine is toxic?  That's technically true.  Given enough of it, concentrated enough, fast enough, it could kill.

But it's misleading, because in actual fact, it doesn't kill.  If you go looking for evidence of someone dying via nicotine, the only thing you'll find is a suicide. It isn't really as toxic as you are pretending.


Yes And 6 cans of RedBull can KILL you 5 shot of Espresso can kill you ...I have NEVER seen a news report that NICOTINE Killed someone
 
2014-03-26 02:21:02 AM  

Cagey B: Okay, if "Minnesota Vapers Advocacy" says so.


Done in two.

Seriously, it's like a group of overzealous horse enthusiasts getting into a hissy fit because a guy donated money to the Safe Horsey Riding Association just because said guy once had to put a horse down.
 
2014-03-26 02:22:37 AM  

Aigoo: fusillade762: Cagey B: Okay, if "Minnesota Vapers Advocacy" says so.

If you follow the link and take a look at the full .pdfs Pfizer gives money to A LOT of different groups. Seriously, the 2013 report is 80 pages long. Taken as a whole the ALA grants don't really stand out all that much.

Nearly a million dollars a year from just one company doesn't say much?

Personally, I'd be curious to see the ALA's 2013 incoming donations report. How many companies--pharmaceutical and tobacco--are donating how much annually? How much is being donated by other organizations that are so virulently anti-vaping? I'd be very curious to know if that report speaks more loudly to you than Pfizer's million dollar whisper does.


I tried Googling that to see what percentage of the ALA's money comes from Pfizer but I couldn't find anything. Granted I only spent a few minutes on it.
 
2014-03-26 02:24:31 AM  

hardinparamedic: Oh, also? Those e-Cigs? They're not as grand as you claim they are:

From the Journal of the American Medical Association


They're also not nearly as dangerous as some people--including some doctors--would try to get people to believe: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/14/18/

Read the entire study, including the part that indicates that there are higher concentrations of toxins in air fresheners than there are in the exhalations of vapers. The study is undergoing peer review at the moment, but Burstyn is a well-respected researcher... not that I expect the knee-jerking "save the children!" panic brigade to pay attention. But actual physicians who have read the paper seem comfortable with Burstyn's findings, which should tell folks something.
 
2014-03-26 02:25:17 AM  

devildog123: My FIL used to cough constantly when he had his 2 pack a day habit.  6 months into his e-cig, no more coughing.  He actually has started running, and is doing a 5K next month.  fark you ALA, e-cigs are awesome.


Same with me. I previously smoked 2 packs a day (insane). I usually coughed like the devil clearing out shiat... now, never.
The negative effects with smoking are due to TOBACCO, NOT NICOTINE. Research this, I dare you farkers.
Same reason why chewing tobacco sucks!
 
2014-03-26 02:25:30 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: There's simply no legitimate objection to adults using e-smokes. There just isn't.


Really?  Okay, how about this:  e-cigs are nothing more than a delivery device for nicotine, yet bongs for smoking dope are illegal in many, many places.   Nicotine has no known health benefits, is highly addictive and toxic in surprisingly small quantities (infants and toddlers have died from chewing or ingesting used cig butts).  Marijuana has a large body of anecdotal health benefits, and once proper testing it allowed in the US, many of those claims (pain relief, relief for intractable epilepsy, stimulation of appetite for people doing chemo, etc.) will be proven true.  Finally, there's never been a confirmed case of someone dying of a marijuana overdose.

If we applied the same logic to e-cigs that the Gov has with marijuana, then all tobacco would be a Schedule I narcotic.

Your point should be that while nicotine (and possibly some of the other ingredients in e-cigs) is addictive and toxic, the use of e-cigs eliminates many other toxins and harmful by-products found in tobacco smoke.  That is, while we would hope everyone simply stops smoking, e-cigs appear to be less harmful that regular tobacco smoke.  It's the lesser of two evils.
 
2014-03-26 02:32:19 AM  

JuggleGeek: If everyone switched, their funding would be gone.


i.chzbgr.com
 
2014-03-26 02:33:24 AM  
YOU DO know those that are going to fustz this up for all of us ..... are the THC peeps (JERKS) using the devises to vape THC -- that is another thread
 
2014-03-26 02:35:58 AM  

hjy6: Enigmamf: hjy6: That "oil" (which is used in hospitals) is FDA approved so there's that

FDA approved for nebulized inhalation?

yes and used in smoke machines at the Disco


static.someecards.com
 
2014-03-26 02:39:34 AM  

Enigmamf: hjy6: That "oil" (which is used in hospitals) is FDA approved so there's that

FDA approved for nebulized inhalation?


Actually...yes.
 
2014-03-26 02:40:48 AM  

fusillade762: Aigoo: fusillade762: Cagey B: Okay, if "Minnesota Vapers Advocacy" says so.

If you follow the link and take a look at the full .pdfs Pfizer gives money to A LOT of different groups. Seriously, the 2013 report is 80 pages long. Taken as a whole the ALA grants don't really stand out all that much.

Nearly a million dollars a year from just one company doesn't say much?

Personally, I'd be curious to see the ALA's 2013 incoming donations report. How many companies--pharmaceutical and tobacco--are donating how much annually? How much is being donated by other organizations that are so virulently anti-vaping? I'd be very curious to know if that report speaks more loudly to you than Pfizer's million dollar whisper does.

I tried Googling that to see what percentage of the ALA's money comes from Pfizer but I couldn't find anything. Granted I only spent a few minutes on it.


I'm willing to bet that shiat is buried pretty deep. If I remember, I'll do a search for it tomorrow and see what I can come up with--mostly because now, I'm curious where the ALA's funding comes from (TFA already showed us that Pfizer gave various branches of the ALA $900k last year).
 
2014-03-26 02:43:21 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: There's simply no legitimate objection to adults using e-smokes. There just isn't.


I'm not saying e-cigs or even regular cigs should be illegal, but there are certainly legitimate objections to their recreational use.

Firstly, nicotine itself is harmful.  The shape of the molecule causes damage to the circulatory system, and just about everything that increases the heart rate except exercise is bad for the heart.  I realize that alcohol also has the potential to cause harm, as does sitting around all day, and eating junk food.  Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't do these things, but I think discouraging the use of nicotine in the same ways we discourage the excessive use of alcohol and eating too much junk food is something we should encourage.  I have no qualms about people who want to use e-cigs as a smoking cessation method, but I wouldn't encourage people to take up e-cigs for recreational purposes any more than I would to take up the patch or nicotine gum for recreational purposes.  Just because they are not as harmful as normal cigarettes doesn't mean regular use won't still harm you.

Secondly, nicotine is highly addictive.  Anyone who smokes or has quit smoking can tell you how difficult it is to give up.  Any addictive drug tends to cause the addicts to divert funds from other things to their addiction, and many an ex-smoker has lamented the money wasted on cigarettes.  Becoming addicted to a drug which will influence a person's decision making is a bad thing, regardless of what drug the addiction is for.  As a society, we should be discouraging the use of nicotine in any form, except as a method for quitting nicotine.
 
2014-03-26 02:53:07 AM  

hardinparamedic: Adolf Oliver Nipples: The controversy about e-cigarettes exists not because they are harmful, but because of control.

Some people might disagree with you on that.


FTLA; Research is still in the very early stages
/ so there's that
 
2014-03-26 02:58:46 AM  
I suspect that the ALA doesn't like e-cigs because they generally think that inhaling stuff that isn't air isn't very good for you.

I tend to agree with them on that.

I smoked for about 20 years and quit about a year ago. I feel a LOT better now.
 
2014-03-26 03:01:11 AM  
"Why is the American Lung Assn against e-cigs?"

Hey subby, just an FYI: this isn't Twitter. You can write out the whole word "Association" if you like.
 
2014-03-26 03:03:11 AM  

indy_kid: Adolf Oliver Nipples: There's simply no legitimate objection to adults using e-smokes. There just isn't.

Nicotine has no known health benefits


Neurologists would like a word: http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20120109/nicotine-patch-may-improve-m e mory-in-pre-dementia-patients

My neurologist and my GP have no problem whatsoever with me vaping. They've read all the relevant studies that do exist right now and don't believe vaping to be harmful. It is smoking cigarettes, which have 4000 chemical, 499 of which are carcinogens, that those doctors took issue with. Both have said that they'd prescribe me gum or patches for as long as I wanted because, and I quote, "nicotine, at those doses, is not at all harmful."

But I'm sure you're (the collective you, not the specific you I quoted) right and all those doctors, healthcare professionals, and researchers are all wrong and nicotine is a terribly harmful poisonous carcinogen and has no medical validity whatsoever and this neurological research (I've seen articles on research into nicotine's use for dementia, alzheimer's and parkinson's in the past year or so) is useless and shouldn't continue. Nor should there be any valid studies conducted regarding the medical efficacy of marijuana because drug companies and the medical industry's profits might suffer if people find either nicotine or marijuana to be more effective than $2000/month worth of pharmaceuticals (what you, the taxpayer, is paying via the Veterans Administration for my medication that does not work when you could be paying less than $100/month for something that actually works).

Explain to me again how government is so effective at managing what is and is not viable when their hands are so deep in the pockets of corporate America? The only regulation vapes need are age restriction (no one under 18 is permitted to purchase) and quality control. Other than that, leave it the hell alone. It's not even a secondhand smoke issue--there's nothing to smell and studies show there's nothing harmful in the exhalations, so telling people we have to go to a smoking area when that's exactly what we DON'T want to do is farking ridiculous.
 
2014-03-26 03:07:56 AM  
Those people only care about money!

(now hand me some money)
 
2014-03-26 03:08:12 AM  
Well look at it this way.

Goal:  To dose myself with nicotine.

Option 1:  Use a device that vaporizes a dilute nicotine solution (that may or may not contain other chemicals more harmful than nicotine)
Option 2:  Set fire to a roll of plant material that contains nicotine (that may or may not contain other chemicals more harmful than nicotine), and proceed to intentionally inhale the resulting smolder.
 
2014-03-26 03:21:57 AM  

hjy6: Contrary to popular belief, nicotine is not the cancer-causing agent in cigarettes.


Here I thought it might be the fine particulate, tar, and other combustion byproducts of burning plant matter that might be the main carcinogens.

/seriously, burning tobacco for the nicotine-as opposed to just because you like the taste-is about as silly as chewing on a willow branch because you really like the effects of aspirin but don't trust what the pill pushers put in their little caplets.
 
2014-03-26 03:27:45 AM  

Ishidan: Well look at it this way.

Goal:  To dose myself with nicotine.

Option 1:  Use a device that vaporizes a dilute nicotine solution (that may or may not contain other chemicals more harmful than nicotine)
Option 2:  Set fire to a roll of plant material that contains nicotine (that may or may not contain other chemicals more harmful than nicotine), and proceed to intentionally inhale the resulting smolder.


Option 3: Stick a pinch between your cheek an gum
Option 4: Put some butts in your coffee grounds
/Plenty of ways to get the nic
//Vaping MAY be the best
 
2014-03-26 03:48:57 AM  
I've finally come to the realization that the people who are most against vaping do it because they simply love being angry about something.  They've been so anti-smoking for so long that they simply can't help themselves.  There is no logic involved.  The facts about vaping are readily available and gets posted to every single e-cig thread on fark.  And are promptly ignored or dismissed.

How about you get your panting in a twist about something important and get the fark out of my life.
 
2014-03-26 03:49:28 AM  

wavion: I honestly don't give a fark what other people put in their own bodies.  But, as a PSA, the vast majority of smoking-related illness/death isn't lung cancer/emphysema/etc.  It's heart disease caused from years of stimulant use (nicotine).  e-cigs won't prevent your heart attack.  On the other hand, as a non-smoker, I love e-cigs, since I don't have to breathe other people's smoke - I really appreciate the courtesy.  So, yeah, good luck with that.


The studies that claim nicotine damages the heart do so based on observation of a symptom linked to a disease. E.g. nicotine causes increased blood pressure which is linked to cardiovascular damage therefore nicotine use over long periods could increase risk of heart disease. Meanwhile, long term studies on users of nrt, snus, snuff etc have found no difference in cardiovascular problems between users and non users. Your ecig may not prevent your heart attack, but I'll bet it won't contribute to it.
 
2014-03-26 03:58:52 AM  

sjcousins: wavion: I honestly don't give a fark what other people put in their own bodies.  But, as a PSA, the vast majority of smoking-related illness/death isn't lung cancer/emphysema/etc.  It's heart disease caused from years of stimulant use (nicotine).  e-cigs won't prevent your heart attack.  On the other hand, as a non-smoker, I love e-cigs, since I don't have to breathe other people's smoke - I really appreciate the courtesy.  So, yeah, good luck with that.

The studies that claim nicotine damages the heart do so based on observation of a symptom linked to a disease. E.g. nicotine causes increased blood pressure which is linked to cardiovascular damage therefore nicotine use over long periods could increase risk of heart disease. Meanwhile, long term studies on users of nrt, snus, snuff etc have found no difference in cardiovascular problems between users and non users. Your ecig may not prevent your heart attack, but I'll bet it won't contribute to it.


Overworking your heart over a long period of time by whatever means (obesity, stimulants, etc) leads to premature heart failure/heart attacks/etc.  This is basic science and common sense.
 
2014-03-26 04:08:30 AM  

wavion: sjcousins: wavion: I honestly don't give a fark what other people put in their own bodies.  But, as a PSA, the vast majority of smoking-related illness/death isn't lung cancer/emphysema/etc.  It's heart disease caused from years of stimulant use (nicotine).  e-cigs won't prevent your heart attack.  On the other hand, as a non-smoker, I love e-cigs, since I don't have to breathe other people's smoke - I really appreciate the courtesy.  So, yeah, good luck with that.

The studies that claim nicotine damages the heart do so based on observation of a symptom linked to a disease. E.g. nicotine causes increased blood pressure which is linked to cardiovascular damage therefore nicotine use over long periods could increase risk of heart disease. Meanwhile, long term studies on users of nrt, snus, snuff etc have found no difference in cardiovascular problems between users and non users. Your ecig may not prevent your heart attack, but I'll bet it won't contribute to it.

Overworking your heart over a long period of time by whatever means (obesity, stimulants, etc) leads to premature heart failure/heart attacks/etc.  This is basic science and common sense.


Yet if it doesn't show up in epidemiology you can pretty much call bs on it... And I agree, what you describe is incredibly basic science. Science works on observation, not 'common sense'.
 
2014-03-26 04:17:28 AM  

sjcousins: wavion: sjcousins: wavion: I honestly don't give a fark what other people put in their own bodies.  But, as a PSA, the vast majority of smoking-related illness/death isn't lung cancer/emphysema/etc.  It's heart disease caused from years of stimulant use (nicotine).  e-cigs won't prevent your heart attack.  On the other hand, as a non-smoker, I love e-cigs, since I don't have to breathe other people's smoke - I really appreciate the courtesy.  So, yeah, good luck with that.

The studies that claim nicotine damages the heart do so based on observation of a symptom linked to a disease. E.g. nicotine causes increased blood pressure which is linked to cardiovascular damage therefore nicotine use over long periods could increase risk of heart disease. Meanwhile, long term studies on users of nrt, snus, snuff etc have found no difference in cardiovascular problems between users and non users. Your ecig may not prevent your heart attack, but I'll bet it won't contribute to it.

Overworking your heart over a long period of time by whatever means (obesity, stimulants, etc) leads to premature heart failure/heart attacks/etc.  This is basic science and common sense.

Yet if it doesn't show up in epidemiology you can pretty much call bs on it... And I agree, what you describe is incredibly basic science. Science works on observation, not 'common sense'.


I gave you a "funny" vote, since epidemiology is the study of epidemics (large scale infectious disease).  Last time I checked, heart disease isn't contagious.
 
2014-03-26 04:28:21 AM  
I get real tired of the e-cig hate from so many influential groups. I'm not a smoker, and I'm sure not starting because of e-cigs, but it seems to me they are far better for everyone, smokers and non-smokers, than normal cigarettes. Yes, it still needs to be noted they aren't good for you and you shouldn't start smoking (if for no other reason then it is damn expensive). However if you do smoke, then they are a really good alternative. Less harmful to the smoker, less harmful to others and they don't stink up the place.
 
2014-03-26 04:29:26 AM  

sjcousins: Yet if it doesn't show up in epidemiology you can pretty much call bs on it... And I agree, what you describe is incredibly basic science. Science works on observation, not 'common sense'.


Yeah, about that.

From the British Medical Journal, 2009:  An association was detected between use of smokeless tobacco products and risk of fatal myocardial infarction and stroke, which does not seem to be explained by chance.

From the Journal of the American Heart and Stroke Association: Circulation, 2010: As reviewed in this statement, there is evidence that long-term ST product use may be associated with a modest risk of fatal myocardial infarction (MI) and fatal stroke, suggesting that ST product use may complicate or reduce the chance for survival after a MI or stroke.

From Epidemiology (Your source you demanded), 2008: Snuff use may elevate the risk of fatal stroke, and particularly of fatal ischemic stroke.

And from Sweeden.....

So please. Do go on. And tell us more about how nicotine alone isn't linked with cardiovascular disease.
 
2014-03-26 04:30:57 AM  

wavion: I gave you a "funny" vote, since epidemiology is the study of epidemics (large scale infectious disease).  Last time I checked, heart disease isn't contagious.


Myocarditis, a form of heart disease, is predominately caused by a viral infection.
 
2014-03-26 04:30:58 AM  
Sorry. Let me retry linking this.

Impact of Smokeless Tobacco Products on Cardiovascular Disease: Implications for Policy, Prevention, and Treatment
A Policy Statement From the American Heart Association

https://circ.ahajournals.org/content/122/15/1520.full

Although evidence is consistent with the suggestion that the cardiovascular risks are lower with ST products compared with cigarette smoking, ST products are not without harm. As reviewed in this statement, there is evidence that long-term ST product use may be associated with a modest risk of fatal myocardial infarction (MI) and fatal stroke, suggesting that ST product use may complicate or reduce the chance for survival after a MI or stroke. In addition, there is inadequate evidence to support the use of ST products as a smoking cessation strategy. Based on the findings reviewed in this statement, clinicians should continue to discourage use of all tobacco products and emphasize prevention of smoking initiation and smoking cessation as primary goals for tobacco control
 
2014-03-26 04:33:25 AM  

Hiro-ACiD: wavion: I gave you a "funny" vote, since epidemiology is the study of epidemics (large scale infectious disease).  Last time I checked, heart disease isn't contagious.

Myocarditis, a form of heart disease, is predominately caused by a viral infection.


I like your style. :)

But, we both know that's not the kind of "heart disease" I was talking about.
 
2014-03-26 04:34:34 AM  

wavion: sjcousins: wavion: sjcousins: wavion: I honestly don't give a fark what other people put in their own bodies.  But, as a PSA, the vast majority of smoking-related illness/death isn't lung cancer/emphysema/etc.  It's heart disease caused from years of stimulant use (nicotine).  e-cigs won't prevent your heart attack.  On the other hand, as a non-smoker, I love e-cigs, since I don't have to breathe other people's smoke - I really appreciate the courtesy.  So, yeah, good luck with that.

The studies that claim nicotine damages the heart do so based on observation of a symptom linked to a disease. E.g. nicotine causes increased blood pressure which is linked to cardiovascular damage therefore nicotine use over long periods could increase risk of heart disease. Meanwhile, long term studies on users of nrt, snus, snuff etc have found no difference in cardiovascular problems between users and non users. Your ecig may not prevent your heart attack, but I'll bet it won't contribute to it.

Overworking your heart over a long period of time by whatever means (obesity, stimulants, etc) leads to premature heart failure/heart attacks/etc.  This is basic science and common sense.

Yet if it doesn't show up in epidemiology you can pretty much call bs on it... And I agree, what you describe is incredibly basic science. Science works on observation, not 'common sense'.

I gave you a "funny" vote, since epidemiology is the study of epidemics (large scale infectious disease).  Last time I checked, heart disease isn't contagious.


Notsureifserious.jpg
You might want to look that word up again champ.
 
2014-03-26 04:34:41 AM  
I used one to quit after 18 pack-years. Haven't touched an e-cig in over a year. Haven't cheated with a real cig in over two years. I have at least 5 friends that can tell the same story. Don't tell me it's a poor cessation product.
 
2014-03-26 04:36:35 AM  
 
2014-03-26 04:36:50 AM  
sjcousins:

smugcondescendingtwat.gif
 
2014-03-26 04:38:01 AM  

sjcousins: Notsureifserious.jpg
You might want to look that word up again champ.


Irregardless of your pedantry, you're still wrong about the "lack of risk" from Nicotine to your cardiovascular system.

Incredibly, unabashedly, Heartland Foundation bought and paid for by Phillip Morris level Bullshiat wrong.
 
2014-03-26 04:47:20 AM  

hardinparamedic: sjcousins: Notsureifserious.jpg
You might want to look that word up again champ.

Irregardless of your pedantry, you're still wrong about the "lack of risk" from Nicotine to your cardiovascular system.

Incredibly, unabashedly, Heartland Foundation bought and paid for by Phillip Morris level Bullshiat wrong.


Calm down I'm getting to you, I'm looking at the studies you linked slash preparing some crow.
 
2014-03-26 04:51:59 AM  

hardinparamedic: Sorry. Let me retry linking this.

Impact of Smokeless Tobacco Products on Cardiovascular Disease: Implications for Policy, Prevention, and Treatment
A Policy Statement From the American Heart Association

https://circ.ahajournals.org/content/122/15/1520.full

Although evidence is consistent with the suggestion that the cardiovascular risks are lower with ST products compared with cigarette smoking, ST products are not without harm. As reviewed in this statement, there is evidence that long-term ST product use may be associated with a modest risk of fatal myocardial infarction (MI) and fatal stroke, suggesting that ST product use may complicate or reduce the chance for survival after a MI or stroke. In addition, there is inadequate evidence to support the use of ST products as a smoking cessation strategy. Based on the findings reviewed in this statement, clinicians should continue to discourage use of all tobacco products and emphasize prevention of smoking initiation and smoking cessation as primary goals for tobacco control


Because abstinence only works so well.
 
2014-03-26 04:55:26 AM  

doglover: Because abstinence only works so well.


Careful lighting those strawmen on fire. It's been dry this year.
 
2014-03-26 05:00:31 AM  
Wow. Wavion. Perfect birthday present. Thought you were long gone!
 
2014-03-26 05:02:53 AM  

hardinparamedic: doglover: Because abstinence only works so well.

Careful lighting those strawmen on fire. It's been dry this year.


Sex is a vice. Smoking is a vice. People don't want to give up vices.

Tobacco is bad, vaping is less bad.

It's simple math.
 
2014-03-26 05:06:39 AM  

hardinparamedic: sjcousins: Notsureifserious.jpg
You might want to look that word up again champ.

Irregardless of your pedantry, you're still wrong about the "lack of risk" from Nicotine to your cardiovascular system.

Incredibly, unabashedly, Heartland Foundation bought and paid for by Phillip Morris level Bullshiat wrong.


E-cigs helped me kick a 35-year cigarette habit. Take that and stick it up your "irregardless pedantry." :)
 
2014-03-26 05:13:40 AM  

SuperTramp: E-cigs helped me kick a 35-year cigarette habit. Take that and stick it up your "irregardless pedantry." :)


Congratulations. You traded one form of nicotine delivery for another. One phallic shaped object for another. :)

images.flabber.net
images.amcnetworks.com
static2.wikia.nocookie.net

Because, in the end, that's what it is. If you're not using nicotine-containing fills anymore, you're just satiating an oral fixation that you could use anything for. That's like saying I replaced my nicotine gum with a pacifier.

On the other hand, the only benefit that is seen is not in cessation of smoking, but in ceasing the use of smoking tobacco products. The nicotine and the long term cardiovascular risk is still there.
 
2014-03-26 05:15:16 AM  

davidw001: Wow. Wavion. Perfect birthday present. Thought you were long gone!


shhhh. I actually am!  I made a 'shop yesterday, though. No one noticed.
 
2014-03-26 05:16:21 AM  

wavion: smugcondescendingtwat.gif


No offense dude, but I'm pretty sure you lose the right to be smug and condescending in a thread where you claimed that the vast majority of smoking related deaths are caused by heart disease from nicotine.

I mean; that's some anti-vacc level nonsense right there.
 
2014-03-26 05:22:35 AM  

Gunther: wavion: smugcondescendingtwat.gif

No offense dude, but I'm pretty sure you lose the right to be smug and condescending in a thread where you claimed that the vast majority of smoking related deaths are caused by heart disease from nicotine.

I mean; that's some anti-vacc level nonsense right there.


The only word I would change about that is "vast." More people die from heart disease than cancer, and smoking is one of the main causes.
 
2014-03-26 05:26:25 AM  

hardinparamedic: SuperTramp: E-cigs helped me kick a 35-year cigarette habit. Take that and stick it up your "irregardless pedantry." :)

Congratulations. You traded one form of nicotine delivery for another. One phallic shaped object for another. :)

[images.flabber.net image 376x161]
[images.amcnetworks.com image 550x378]
[static2.wikia.nocookie.net image 624x352]

Because, in the end, that's what it is. If you're not using nicotine-containing fills anymore, you're just satiating an oral fixation that you could use anything for. That's like saying I replaced my nicotine gum with a pacifier.

On the other hand, the only benefit that is seen is not in cessation of smoking, but in ceasing the use of smoking tobacco products. The nicotine and the long term cardiovascular risk is still there.


Thank you for your vast wisdom, Dr. blowhardin.
 
2014-03-26 05:26:36 AM  

Gunther: No offense dude, but I'm pretty sure you lose the right to be smug and condescending in a thread where you claimed that the vast majority of smoking related deaths are caused by heart disease from nicotine.

I mean; that's some anti-vacc level nonsense right there.


Except that smokeless tobacco products majorly increase cardiovascular, heart attack, heart disease, and stroke risks.

"Vast majority" ARE caused by smoking tobacco. Pretending that smokeless tobacco or nicotine delivery systems are safe, and not just less dangerous, is the anti-vaxx level of nonsense.

Cardiovascular disease is a 149 Billion Dollar annual burden on the American People (and that's just cost to State and Federal programs) - with diet and tobacco product use being two of the most readily modifiable risk factors.
 
2014-03-26 05:27:57 AM  

SuperTramp: Thank you for your vast wisdom, Dr. blowhardin.


You're welcome, my good man.

i1.ytimg.com

I'll get you a towel.
 
2014-03-26 05:29:26 AM  

hardinparamedic: sjcousins: Yet if it doesn't show up in epidemiology you can pretty much call bs on it... And I agree, what you describe is incredibly basic science. Science works on observation, not 'common sense'.

Yeah, about that.

From the British Medical Journal, 2009:  An association was detected between use of smokeless tobacco products and risk of fatal myocardial infarction and stroke, which does not seem to be explained by chance.

From the Journal of the American Heart and Stroke Association: Circulation, 2010: As reviewed in this statement, there is evidence that long-term ST product use may be associated with a modest risk of fatal myocardial infarction (MI) and fatal stroke, suggesting that ST product use may complicate or reduce the chance for survival after a MI or stroke.

From Epidemiology (Your source you demanded), 2008: Snuff use may elevate the risk of fatal stroke, and particularly of fatal ischemic stroke.

And from Sweeden.....

So please. Do go on. And tell us more about how nicotine alone isn't linked with cardiovascular disease.


Ok. There are studies linking nicotine use with increased risk of stroke and mi. I shouldn't be surprised.
I still don't think that's completely settled however since a number of studies have found no increased risk.
Not that it matters, but I was talking about the science of, not journal of epidemiology but you came through on both accounts, so good for you.
 
2014-03-26 05:30:35 AM  

Great Justice: Adolf Oliver Nipples: There's simply no legitimate objection to adults using e-smokes. There just isn't.

I'm not saying e-cigs or even regular cigs should be illegal, but there are certainly legitimate objections to their recreational use.

Firstly, nicotine itself is harmful.  The shape of the molecule causes damage to the circulatory system, and just about everything that increases the heart rate except exercise is bad for the heart.  I realize that alcohol also has the potential to cause harm, as does sitting around all day, and eating junk food.  Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't do these things, but I think discouraging the use of nicotine in the same ways we discourage the excessive use of alcohol and eating too much junk food is something we should encourage.  I have no qualms about people who want to use e-cigs as a smoking cessation method, but I wouldn't encourage people to take up e-cigs for recreational purposes any more than I would to take up the patch or nicotine gum for recreational purposes.  Just because they are not as harmful as normal cigarettes doesn't mean regular use won't still harm you.

Secondly, nicotine is highly addictive.  Anyone who smokes or has quit smoking can tell you how difficult it is to give up.  Any addictive drug tends to cause the addicts to divert funds from other things to their addiction, and many an ex-smoker has lamented the money wasted on cigarettes.  Becoming addicted to a drug which will influence a person's decision making is a bad thing, regardless of what drug the addiction is for.  As a society, we should be discouraging the use of nicotine in any form, except as a method for quitting nicotine.


I used to suck dick for nicotine. It's bad stuff.
 
2014-03-26 05:30:38 AM  

SuperTramp: Thank you for your vast wisdom, Dr. blowhardin.


As a side note, I'm not so much making fun of your personal experience - in which, I'd say great for you - and thank you for FINALLY letting me use a The Whitest Kids you Know sketch on FARK, but rather the attitude of "It worked for me so it must work for everyone else equally"
 
2014-03-26 05:33:06 AM  

hardinparamedic: SuperTramp: E-cigs helped me kick a 35-year cigarette habit. Take that and stick it up your "irregardless pedantry." :)

Congratulations. You traded one form of nicotine delivery for another. One phallic shaped object for another. :)





Because, in the end, that's what it is. If you're not using nicotine-containing fills anymore, you're just satiating an oral fixation that you could use anything for. That's like saying I replaced my nicotine gum with a pacifier.

On the other hand, the only benefit that is seen is not in cessation of smoking, but in ceasing the use of smoking tobacco products. The nicotine and the long term cardiovascular risk is still there.


Geez. Did nicotine kill your family or steal your girlfriend or something?
 
2014-03-26 05:33:47 AM  

sjcousins: I still don't think that's completely settled however since a number of studies have found no increased risk.


All snark aside, can you link to those studies? I'd be genuinely interested in their quality, impact, and source publication.
 
2014-03-26 05:35:54 AM  

hardinparamedic: sjcousins: I still don't think that's completely settled however since a number of studies have found no increased risk.

All snark aside, can you link to those studies? I'd be genuinely interested in their quality, impact, and source publication.


That's a pain in the ass since I'm on my phone now but I'll give it a shot.
 
2014-03-26 05:37:32 AM  
I'm guessing half of them are from MN Vapers.
 
2014-03-26 05:49:32 AM  

wavion: More people die from heart disease than cancer, and smoking is one of the main causes.


hardinparamedic: Except that smokeless tobacco products majorly increase cardiovascular, heart attack, heart disease, and stroke risks.


I'm not saying nicotine is harmless, I'm saying for wavion to claim that, and this is a direct quote; "the vast majority of smoking-related illness/death isn't lung cancer/emphysema/etc.  It's heart disease caused from years of stimulant use (nicotine)." is farking nonsense.

Now yes; nicotine by itself increases the risk of heart disease by a significant amount. The deaths caused by that don't even compare to the amount of people dying from smoking-caused cancers, even though heart disease kills more people overall than cancer. Pretending it does to attack e-cigs really is anti-vacc level bullshiat.
 
2014-03-26 05:53:49 AM  

hardinparamedic: SuperTramp: Thank you for your vast wisdom, Dr. blowhardin.

As a side note, I'm not so much making fun of your personal experience - in which, I'd say great for you - and thank you for FINALLY letting me use a The Whitest Kids you Know sketch on FARK, but rather the attitude of "It worked for me so it must work for everyone else equally"


How can you have not found a chance for WKUK?

i.ytimg.com

cloud-2.steampowered.com

i.ytimg.com
 
2014-03-26 06:06:32 AM  

wavion: davidw001: Wow. Wavion. Perfect birthday present. Thought you were long gone!

shhhh. I actually am!  I made a 'shop yesterday, though. No one noticed.


Lol l

wavion: davidw001: Wow. Wavion. Perfect birthday present. Thought you were long gone!

shhhh. I actually am!  I made a 'shop yesterday, though. No one noticed.


Your secret is safe with me. Ive been long gone for a long time. Nice job as always.
 
2014-03-26 06:07:26 AM  

hjy6: Contrary to popular belief, nicotine is not the cancer-causing agent in cigarettes. A two year study on lab mice found there to be   when given in its pure form by inhalation. If nicotine were the culprit in cigarettes, we're pretty sure the FDA would never have approved any NRT gums, patches or inhalers. It is still poisonous when ingested in large quantities so make sure your e-liquids are used properly and kept out of reach of children.


As far as I can remember my organic chemistry, which is admittedly not very far, the main carcinogen in ciggarettes are PAHs (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) which are created when any organic material burns or chars.  Grill marks on a steak contain PAHs.  Arsenic results from pesticide use and not every brand has a high arsenic content.  Cigarettes are terrible for you but only in the sense that the typical smoker uses them to extreme excess.  If a smoker enjoyed a smoke once a day or a couple times a week instead of 12-15 of them a day they probably won't be a significant cause of illness. So in a way the nicotine is what makes them so damn bad for you because the addictive behavior is what causes the abuse but you are correct in that it's not a really sensible reason to ban e-cigs.  I'd be more concerned about the other stuff in the fluid rather than the nicotine.
 
2014-03-26 06:09:45 AM  
Yes, the American Lung Association is nothing but pure scam, nothing but pure money-making scam, pure greed, it all makes sense now.
 
2014-03-26 06:11:23 AM  

Gunther: wavion: More people die from heart disease than cancer, and smoking is one of the main causes.

hardinparamedic: Except that smokeless tobacco products majorly increase cardiovascular, heart attack, heart disease, and stroke risks.

I'm not saying nicotine is harmless, I'm saying for wavion to claim that, and this is a direct quote; "the vast majority of smoking-related illness/death isn't lung cancer/emphysema/etc.  It's heart disease caused from years of stimulant use (nicotine)." is farking nonsense.

Now yes; nicotine by itself increases the risk of heart disease by a significant amount. The deaths caused by that don't even compare to the amount of people dying from smoking-caused cancers, even though heart disease kills more people overall than cancer. Pretending it does to attack e-cigs really is anti-vacc level bullshiat.


American annual deaths from lung cancer: ~150,000. Source: American Cancer Society.
American annual deaths from heart disease: ~600,000. Source: CDC.
Main causes of heart disease (also from CDC): high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and smoking.
If you say 1/3 of heart disease is influenced by smoking, that's still more than lung cancer.

I already said that I shouldn't have used the word "vast", which you blatantly ignored. But even if saying the "majority" of smoking-related deaths is from heart disease is an exaggeration, it's not nearly as distorted as you claim.
 
2014-03-26 06:11:45 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: I hate to break this to you (considering your career choice), but the AMA is just a paid shill in some cases as well. It depends on who is at the helm... at one time in our nations history Doctors promoted certain brands of Cigarettes as therapeutic. I do not lend any more credence to organizations like the AMA (who may have a hidden agenda) than any other organization. There are two rules of thumb to determine if someone is full of BS:



Okay. And before you protest, I've cut out the second part because it's truly irrelevant at this point.

Let me condense what you have just said: "I don't like the results of the study, so it must not be true!"

The Journal of the American Medical Association is a high impact, peer reviewed journal which has been known for decades as a source of high quality science and guiding information for both policy makers and practitioners in a clinical setting.

If you have evidence the study is "BS" as you claim,   please present it as such. At the current time, the only evidence we have otherwise is the word of   HindiDiscoMonster, which I'm not sure of your peer review, your journalistic impact, or your renown as a reliable source of health or health policy information.

HindiDiscoMonster: do you really have no concept of history or are you being purposely obtuse?


Please provide, with a link to the full text source, the quote of the person who is saying e-cigs are outright just as dangerous as cigarettes, or should be entirely banned.
 
2014-03-26 06:17:43 AM  
hardinparamedic:  and thank you for FINALLY letting me use a The Whitest Kids you Know sketch on FARK, but rather the attitude of "It worked for me so it must work for everyone else equally"

Slow Jerking is applicable to any and all discussions on Fark or elsewhere, sir.
 
2014-03-26 06:19:37 AM  
hardinparamedic

Please provide, with a link to the full text source, the quote of the person who is saying e-cigs are outright just as dangerous as cigarettes, or should be entirely banned.

Unless I've been only dreaming that I read this thread, YOU have been arguing BUT NICOTINE!!!!1111!!
 
2014-03-26 06:21:10 AM  

SuperTramp: Unless I've been only dreaming that I read this thread, YOU have been arguing BUT NICOTINE!!!!1111!!


I've been arguing against people who think nicotine is safe or harmless.

Sorry. No sell.

i.imgur.com

Plus, it makes you look gay.
 
2014-03-26 06:23:02 AM  
Dad always said: "follow the money".
 
2014-03-26 06:27:39 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: the AMA is just a paid shill in some cases as well. It depends on who is at the helm...


hmm...I wonder how you're going to back this statement up...


HindiDiscoMonster: at one time in our nations history Doctors promoted certain brands of Cigarettes as therapeutic.


hahahahhaha!!!! oh wow!!
 
2014-03-26 06:29:13 AM  

hardinparamedic: SuperTramp: Unless I've been only dreaming that I read this thread, YOU have been arguing BUT NICOTINE!!!!1111!!

I've been arguing against people who think nicotine is safe or harmless.

Sorry. No sell.

[i.imgur.com image 640x360]

Plus, it makes you look gay.



I normally enjoy your fact filled posts, but here you're just being a jerk.
 
2014-03-26 06:32:11 AM  

log_jammin: HindiDiscoMonster: at one time in our nations history Doctors promoted certain brands of Cigarettes as therapeutic.

hahahahhaha!!!! oh wow!!


That one is actually true.
 
2014-03-26 06:34:43 AM  

log_jammin: HindiDiscoMonster: the AMA is just a paid shill in some cases as well. It depends on who is at the helm...

hmm...I wonder how you're going to back this statement up...


HindiDiscoMonster: at one time in our nations history Doctors promoted certain brands of Cigarettes as therapeutic.

hahahahhaha!!!! oh wow!!


....tobacco companies regularly hosted "hospitality booths" at otolaryngology conventions from which they gave out free cigarettes, sometimes with packs embossed with the doctors' names. In major cities all over America, throat specialists were taken out to elegant dinners at which they were implored to "prescribe" their brand of cigarettes to patients with sore throats or coughs.
 
2014-03-26 06:35:59 AM  

log_jammin: hardinparamedic: SuperTramp: Unless I've been only dreaming that I read this thread, YOU have been arguing BUT NICOTINE!!!!1111!!

I've been arguing against people who think nicotine is safe or harmless.

Sorry. No sell.

[i.imgur.com image 640x360]

Plus, it makes you look gay.


I normally enjoy your fact filled posts, but here you're just being a jerk.


brony withdrawal?
 
2014-03-26 06:38:59 AM  

hardinparamedic: <strong><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/8194100/89957245#c89957245" target="_blank">SuperTramp</a>:</strong> <em>Unless I've been only dreaming that I read this thread, YOU have been arguing BUT NICOTINE!!!!1111!!</em>

I've been arguing against people who think nicotine is safe or harmless.

Sorry. No sell.

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/HD5QoWs.jpg" width="640" height="360">

Plus, it makes you look gay.

 
2014-03-26 06:40:49 AM  

wavion: log_jammin: HindiDiscoMonster: at one time in our nations history Doctors promoted certain brands of Cigarettes as therapeutic.

hahahahhaha!!!! oh wow!!

That one is actually true.


SuperTramp: log_jammin: HindiDiscoMonster: the AMA is just a paid shill in some cases as well. It depends on who is at the helm...

hmm...I wonder how you're going to back this statement up...


HindiDiscoMonster: at one time in our nations history Doctors promoted certain brands of Cigarettes as therapeutic.

hahahahhaha!!!! oh wow!!

....tobacco companies regularly hosted "hospitality booths" at otolaryngology conventions from which they gave out free cigarettes, sometimes with packs embossed with the doctors' names. In major cities all over America, throat specialists were taken out to elegant dinners at which they were implored to "prescribe" their brand of cigarettes to patients with sore throats or coughs.


Yes, I am aware of those things. My point is that they are not evidence that the AMA is "a paid shill".

Is the american dental association a paid shill because 4 out of 5 dentists agree that using a certain toothpaste is really awesome?

If the claim is that the AMA is "a paid shill" then he needs to show a case where the AMA was paid to shill something, a doctor in the 20's saying that Pall Malls are relaxing, is a completely different thing.
 
2014-03-26 06:41:06 AM  
http://i.imgur.com/qu3icUJ.gif
 
2014-03-26 06:42:09 AM  

SuperTramp: brony withdrawal?


we all have our addictions
 
2014-03-26 06:45:11 AM  

wavion: log_jammin: HindiDiscoMonster: at one time in our nations history Doctors promoted certain brands of Cigarettes as therapeutic.

hahahahhaha!!!! oh wow!!

That one is actually true.


Not really. Outside of ad campaigns and doctors paid for by the cigarette companies, there was a quite large push against smoking by medical advocacy groups and researchers.

People think what the Heritage Foundation was founded for was a new idea in the 70s. It had been going on far before.
 
2014-03-26 06:46:40 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Farkingwhatever: devildog123: My FIL used to cough constantly when he had his 2 pack a day habit.  6 months into his e-cig, no more coughing.  He actually has started running, and is doing a 5K next month.  fark you ALA, e-cigs are awesome.

Same with me. I previously smoked 2 packs a day (insane). I usually coughed like the devil clearing out shiat... now, never.
The negative effects with smoking are due to TOBACCO, NOT NICOTINE. Research this, I dare you farkers.
Same reason why chewing tobacco sucks!

I used to smoke almost 2 packs of these a day (for about 25yrs):

[kraftstobaccoblog.files.wordpress.com image 360x640]

I tried e-cigs, not for me, so I just quit... but then again, I have always been able to do that (which is unusual)... most people can't simply quit.


I was the same way. I finished my last pack one day and decided I didn't want to buy another. I argued with my wife about how to cook the eggs for breakfast the next morning, told my brother off that afternoon. I woke up the next morning, apologized to both of them, and that was that.  Two temper tantrums from me in a single day was pretty damn significant so I have great sympathy for people who have a harder time.  It is remarkably addictive.
 
2014-03-26 06:48:11 AM  
Ok, I'm back and paying attention. Here you go. These refer to smokeless tobacco which is not just nicotine but still. I could dig deeper but I honestly don't want to. Most reviews of smoking and public health concede that nicotine plays a minuscule role in health complications compared to the chemicals produced by smoking and that are found in tobacco.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-012-9704-8#page-1
"Current snus use was not associated with risk of AMI (pooled multivariable hazard ratio 1.04, 95 % confidence interval 0.93 to 1.17). The short-term case fatality rate appeared increased in snus users (odds ratio 1.28, 95 % confidence interval 0.99 to 1.68). This study does not support any association between use of snus and development of AMI."

http://www.bmj.com/content/339/bmj.b3060
This is your own source but I want to point out that the author found no significant difference between smokeless tobacco users and non users (heart attack RR = 0.99, CI of 0.89 to 1.10, Stroke RR= 1.19 CI = 0.97 - 1.47). He split the groups into non fatal and fatal subgroups and then found an elevated risk of fatal heart attack and stroke in smokeless users. Why focus on the second finding and barely mention the first?
 
2014-03-26 06:57:35 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: /don't bother hitting me with a clever plastic dick picture - I don't smoke.


people.virginia.edu

upload.wikimedia.org

...ladies and gentlemen of this  supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen,  this is . Chewbacca is a wookie from the planet Kashyyk . But Chewbacca  lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it;  that does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall ? That does  not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It  does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does  not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests
 
2014-03-26 07:03:26 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Irrelevant.



Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Nam laoreet, enim posuere placerat adipiscing, quam neque sollicitudin nibh, sed luctus eros magna in nunc. Donec et lorem nisi. Mauris non eleifend dui. Curabitur adipiscing mi a erat varius, id dapibus dui sollicitudin. Vivamus eget felis quam. Duis ut fermentum diam. Nullam dictum elit in fringilla suscipit. Morbi tempus, arcu in bibendum imperdiet, justo quam facilisis lacus, congue condimentum ante sapien sit amet eros!

Vivamus pulvinar leo nibh. Integer sit amet dapibus purus. Morbi vitae scelerisque arcu, non gravida sem. Vivamus faucibus sem sapien, sed iaculis nunc auctor eu. Curabitur ultricies rhoncus ipsum eget commodo. Aliquam feugiat metus sem, a cursus nulla consectetur ut. Etiam vitae blandit enim. Nullam eget orci felis.

Praesent sed ipsum id mauris ultrices egestas. Curabitur at convallis ipsum, a porta nisl. Curabitur feugiat, augue quis porta tristique, tellus lorem suscipit nisi, vel tristique eros quam id tortor. Praesent congue rutrum erat ut convallis. Quisque vel tempus nunc. Sed venenatis erat est, sit amet vestibulum justo facilisis mollis. Integer et aliquam sem. Nunc velit risus, placerat sit amet libero ut, tincidunt condimentum erat. Donec quis augue lectus. Praesent odio dolor, blandit ac mauris et, porttitor convallis lacus. Integer tortor arcu, tincidunt a aliquet hendrerit, pretium pharetra leo?

Nunc id iaculis felis, vitae sollicitudin eros. Integer porttitor sapien eget laoreet pretium. Aenean ut tellus ut odio gravida condimentum eget sed lectus. Aenean sit amet orci lacus. In auctor dolor vel tristique feugiat. Proin mattis dolor felis, non bibendum risus feugiat at. Donec nec commodo turpis. Quisque eleifend velit ac ultricies congue. Morbi pretium felis molestie porta luctus. Proin ut interdum dolor. In imperdiet mi quis nibh condimentum, ut auctor leo elementum. Proin quis orci sit amet neque auctor eleifend. Nullam ornare id justo et accumsan. Donec venenatis, mi ac ullamcorper imperdiet, nibh lorem venenatis metus, blandit ultricies massa augue ac risus. Nam tortor sem, convallis non pulvinar a, varius a sem. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae;

Mauris tortor nisl, rhoncus eu auctor sit amet, sodales accumsan nibh. Mauris et euismod nunc, adipiscing faucibus leo. Quisque pellentesque tellus ut eleifend consectetur. Curabitur blandit elit et turpis hendrerit, eget aliquet sapien accumsan. Suspendisse hendrerit risus feugiat feugiat varius. Maecenas risus sem, feugiat eu sem quis, elementum aliquet nisl. Donec fermentum ipsum sapien, sit amet vestibulum nibh aliquet vel. Suspendisse pharetra elementum rutrum. Integer malesuada porta laoreet. Morbi nec dui ac urna volutpat fringilla.

So take that!
 
2014-03-26 07:04:41 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: I see my initial instinct was correct.... adios

You are an extremist.


No. I'm giving you the exact level of seriousness you deserve to garner after your i nitial comment in this thread to me.
 
2014-03-26 07:14:45 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: hardinparamedic: HindiDiscoMonster: /don't bother hitting me with a clever plastic dick picture - I don't smoke.

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x184]

...ladies and gentlemen of this  supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen,  this is . Chewbacca is a wookie from the planet Kashyyk . But Chewbacca  lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it;  that does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall ? That does  not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It  does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does  not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests

I see my initial instinct was correct.... adios

You are an extremist.


He's more of a fedora-wearing, brony, nurse but yeah, probably the best course of action.

Go on hardin, I know you've got an adhominem.jpg you've been saving for those who clicked your handle and burst out laughing.
 
2014-03-26 07:14:57 AM  
But the people who get physically aroused by the prospect of banning things assure me that ecigs are at least as bad for you as cigarettes because feelings, not science.
 
2014-03-26 07:16:28 AM  

sjcousins: He's more of a fedora-wearing, brony, nurse but yeah, probably the best course of action.


I'm not your mother last night.

Men have been murdered for less horrendous accusations, Sir. The Holocaust was established on less offensive pretenses.
 
2014-03-26 07:18:08 AM  

hardinparamedic: SuperTramp: Unless I've been only dreaming that I read this thread, YOU have been arguing BUT NICOTINE!!!!1111!!

I've been arguing against people who think nicotine is safe or harmless.

Sorry. No sell.



Plus, it makes you look gay.


Ban gays and e-cigs
 
2014-03-26 07:19:56 AM  
cdn.theatlantic.com 

Novart: Ban gays and e-cigs

 
2014-03-26 07:22:07 AM  
4 years tobacco free because of the ecig. That's it. Nothing more to say.
 
2014-03-26 07:23:02 AM  

hardinparamedic: The Holocaust was established on less offensive pretenses.


Wow, I'm saving that, and there's nothing you can do to stop me!
 
2014-03-26 07:23:20 AM  
I think it would be completely valid for them to be against e-cigs since it still involves people inhaling unknown quantities of chemicals into the lungs, making a person (or keeping them) addicted to nicotine and potentially leading them smoking cigarettes at other times.

Personally I think e-cigs should be heavily regulated, at least as much as cigarettes and alcohol are. Instead they're being sold from stands in malls and such like. The ads for these things are like some bizarre throwback to the days when cigarettes were promoted as sexy lifestyle choices.
 
2014-03-26 07:24:03 AM  

GoldSpider: Wow, I'm saving that, and there's nothing you can do to stop me!


Absolutely. I'd support the positive defense of the holocaust before I'd support the wearing of Fedoras.
 
2014-03-26 07:25:08 AM  

aszure: 4 years tobacco free because of the ecig. That's it. Nothing more to say.


The important thing is that you can still blow smoke in my face and offend my delicate sensibilities.

/Sorry, I'm still a cup of coffee away from decent trolling.
 
2014-03-26 07:27:42 AM  
"Big Pharma"


Stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg
 
2014-03-26 07:28:35 AM  

hardinparamedic: sjcousins: He's more of a fedora-wearing, brony, nurse but yeah, probably the best course of action.

I'm not your mother last night.

Men have been murdered for less horrendous accusations, Sir. The Holocaust was established on less offensive pretenses.


Sounds like something this guy would say.
img.fark.net
Consider yourself favourited.
 
2014-03-26 07:29:05 AM  

drxym: and potentially leading them smoking cigarettes at other times.


Just like I said, "because feelings".
 
2014-03-26 07:32:34 AM  

sjcousins: Consider yourself favourited.


And to you, Sir.

i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-03-26 07:43:30 AM  

wavion: If you say 1/3 of heart disease is influenced by smoking, that's still more than lung cancer.


Sure, assuming we're ignoring every other way cigarettes can kill other than lung cancer, and assuming "influenced" means "caused to the same degree that cigarettes cause lung cancer".

Face it; it was a dumb thing to say.
 
2014-03-26 07:57:38 AM  

GoldSpider: But the people who get physically aroused by the prospect of banning things assure me that ecigs are at least as bad for you as cigarettes because feelings, not science.


And clearly the American Lung Association is all about banning things to achieve sexual gratification. I think it's in their charter.
 
2014-03-26 08:05:16 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: vygramul: Eddy Gurge: [CSB]
Smoked 1-2 packs a day for 35 years.  Had my last Marlboro on January 30'th of this year after a scare with pneumonia from some strange bacterial infection.   I love(d) smoking and knew I'd never quit.  While in the hospital (for a week) I had my wife bring me a couple of the Blu cigs from 7-11 (used them in the bathroom in my room).  I was pleased enough with them that I had her get me a Halo starter kit for my return home. There's been no looking back.  Currently puffing on an iTaste 134 mini with a Kanger Aero Tank.  I'm not going back, and I don't hack and cough any more.  Oh, and I can breath, smell and taste.  Screw the ALA.
[/CSB]

I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using. DEG causes kidney failure and was found in some eCigs. I'm all for people putting things in their bodies... so long as they know what they're putting in their bodies. The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.

Do you understand the absurdity in what you're saying? The people who are switching to e-cigarettes are people who are no longer smoking. There are so many carcinogenic compounds in cigarettes that dismissing e-cigarettes because of some potential health hazard utterly misses the point. Furthermore, if you don't deal with Big Tobacco to get your e-cigarettes, they tell you exactly what is in them. The people I deal with use propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, nicotine extract, and a flavor compound, ingredients on demand, no secrets kept.

The controversy about e-cigarettes exists not because they are harmful, but because of control. It's the same impulse that causes people to get involved in your sex life, or what you eat. A healthy dose of anti-smoking vengeance is included, the whole "we had to deal with you smokers for years, now it's OUR turn!" nonsense. People are demonstrably using e-cigarettes to get off the cancer sticks, they are becoming healthier by the day, and the alleged smell isn't even remotely as cloying as a typical person's deodorant/cologne/perfume and should be deemed a welcome trade-off for people coming back in to work smelling of cigarette smoke or making you smell like ass when you're out and about.

There's simply no legitimate objection to adults using e-smokes. There just isn't.


I'll give you one legitimate objection:

We run a manufacturing facility where a sign says "no smoking, eating or drinking". A vendor came in to do service work on a device and midway thru the job, whipped out an e-cig and started dragging on it. Then he began preaching the benefits of e-cigs. I had to ask him to put it away. He said "Why? I'm not really smoking?" Then I had to explain: "You are standing in the middle of a manufacturing lab area posted for the control of exposure to hazardous chemicals. You can't put stuff in your mouth while you are in this lab. That means - no eating, no drinking, no nose picking, no bubble gum, no toothpicks, no smoking and yes, no e-cigs."

So, I'm fine with e-cigs but like texting, there can be times where they are not appropriate and maybe indirectly harmful to your health.
 
2014-03-26 08:19:55 AM  

hardinparamedic: sjcousins: Consider yourself favourited.

And to you, Sir.

[i1.ytimg.com image 850x531]


Using gay a pejorative makes you a farking doubhebag. Grow up.
 
2014-03-26 08:33:50 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: And clearly the American Lung Association is all about banning things to achieve sexual gratification.


And what of various local legislatures who insist on applying tobacco laws to ecigs despite the total absence of tobacco in them?
 
2014-03-26 08:36:03 AM  

Egoy3k: hardinparamedic: sjcousins: Consider yourself favourited.

And to you, Sir.

[i1.ytimg.com image 850x531]

Using gay a pejorative makes you a farking doubhebag. Grow up.


Wow coffee deficiency....

*ahem*

Using gay as a pejorative makes you a farking douchebag. Grow up.
 
2014-03-26 08:43:43 AM  

hardinparamedic: doglover: Because abstinence only works so well.

Careful lighting those strawmen on fire. It's been dry this year.


There's actually a pretty good analogy in there:
Smoking cigarettes = unprotected sex.
E-cigs = protected sex.
Banning e-cigs =  abstinence only education.

It's safer not to do them at all, but if you really must have a cigarette...
 
2014-03-26 08:47:00 AM  

GoldSpider: HotWingConspiracy: And clearly the American Lung Association is all about banning things to achieve sexual gratification.

And what of various local legislatures who insist on applying tobacco laws to ecigs despite the total absence of tobacco in them?


Responding to the will of their constituents? Do you carefully examine their genitals when they pass these measures?
 
2014-03-26 08:50:57 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Responding to the will of their constituents?


cdn.vanillaforums.com
 
2014-03-26 09:04:46 AM  
My mom has COPD from almost 40 years of smoking, and in the year she's been using the eCig, every time she smells tobacco she wants to hurl. Her doctors are pleased that her lungs aren't getting worse, and she's on the lowest dosage available. The only thing she complains about it not enjoying coffee as much as she used to. I've also seen the rest of my family fail to quit using the eCig, but they don't have the motivation my mom does.
I get that we don't know exactly how bad they might be, but I have a hard time believing that it can be worse than tar, formaldehyde and the rest of the poison in brand name cigarettes. I'm thrilled my mom can breathe again.
 
2014-03-26 09:22:34 AM  
If you have said any of the below, it automatically disqualifies you from further comment because you are an idiot:

-Ecig users don't know what's in the stuff they're vaping
-Ecigs are just another way for big tobacco to hook you
-Nicotine is dangerous in and of itself
-There are no real scientific studies of ecig use.


Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?

Start here:
peer reviewed meta review of around 100 other studies on ecig use that finds there is no significant health or cancer risk from ecig use

And then there's this:

Electronic cigarette vapor appears chemically incapable of causing cancer as cigarette smoke has done. E-cigarette vapor contains toxicants concentrations averaging less than one percent of the concentrations in tobacco cigarette smoke.


And this:
Monkeys and rats were exposed continuously to high concentrations of propylene glycol, a common component of e liquids for periods of 12 to 18 months. Results of the research state "air containing these vapors in amounts up to the saturation point is completely harmless".

And this:
Recent research indicates that electronic cigarette use does not affect the oxygenation of the heart. Lead by principle investigator Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos; results of the research were presented at the European Society of Cardiology annual congress in Amsterdam in August, 2013.

And this:
High nicotine e-liquids were vaporized in a series of experiments and the emissions compared to tobacco smoke. The study results indicate "no apparent risk to human health from e-cigarette emissions based on the compounds analyzed".

Want more? I have tons more.

Bottom line: if you are against an open and thriving ecig industry - if you want to see it regulated "like tobacco," and if you want the same limitations put on ecig use as tobacco use - you are part of the problem.

You are helping big tobacco keep their hooks in society and profit from their oligopoly and people's misery.

Stop being part of the problem.
 
2014-03-26 09:25:18 AM  

Cagey B: vygramul: I'd be fine if eCigs would let people know what chemicals they're using. DEG causes kidney failure and was found in some eCigs. I'm all for people putting things in their bodies... so long as they know what they're putting in their bodies. The Free Market can only work with information available to everyone in the transaction.

Yep. Go and e-cig it up. Just do it with the understanding that nicotine is toxic and that there is no meaningful regulation of what goes in these things. And don't make bullshiat claims like those in TFA that e-cigs "save lives".

Also, the fact that an advocacy group feels the need to put out a horseshiat-laden press release on the subject should probably raise a couple of red flags for people.


Nicotine is as harmless as caffeine. Stop with the lies. It is NOT toxic.
 
2014-03-26 09:33:27 AM  
It's nice to see that Hardonparamedic rushes in to all these threads to 'educate us'. Why not just mind your farking business. Your schtick has been farking stale for a long time now. People choose a healthier alternative to smoking and you still want to rule the farking world.
 
2014-03-26 09:38:28 AM  
You guys all seem to have this debate all taken care of.

I'll just add this: the only e-cigarettes I have ever seen are people using them in public places where they can't usually smoke, a few very young looking kids (16-18 year olds I'd guess) using them in front of a convenience store, people using them for THC delivery and one time out in front of a club with other smokers. Oh, and in douchey commercials with Jenny McCarthy and Stephen Dorf.

Based on my very limited anecdotal evidence, I have jumped to this conclusion, which I am 100% OK with embracing and taking to the races:

While some people (I'm told and I will believe) have successfully used e-cigarettes to significantly reduce their smoking habit or even quit altogether (which I fully endorse and applaud), the majority of e-cigarette use is people using them to be able to smoke in area that were previously restricted to them, young kids who probably wouldn't or couldn't smoke before, stoners championing them as a way to get high in a secretive and/or socially acceptable way, one guy who got the hairy eyeball from a pack of "real" smokers and a crazy anti-vaccination chick who likes that she can smoke in clubs again and some C-List former celebrity trying to equate smoking with a great fundamental freedom that has been stripped from the Founding Fathers by phantom hordes of marauding fascists.

Yeah, e-cigarettes appear to be the lesser of two evils, are infinitely less offensive than typical second hand smoke and may even help some people reduce or quit smoking, but be honest in your defense of them. They are still a way to deliver an harmful addictive substance into you body, aren't regulated for sh*t, allow people to do this in places they couldn't before and are perfect for marketing to the next generation of nicotine consumers (and the fruity flavor appeal to impressionable young people, especially women ... many of us remember the underage girl who would never try drinking a beer or hard liquor but decided "Say, these wine coolers are tasty ... it's like fruit punch, really, not an alcoholic drink!") .

I'd bet that for every person who used a vaporizer to help quit, 100 more users like them because they can smoke in clubs again. Again, a stat I pulled out of my ass that I'm comfortable using as a fact!

Plus, the biggest knock against e-cigarettes: they look absolutely moronic. There is no defense in this debate for that.

I personally don't want them banned, I just want people to be honest with their motives in the debate. Just say "I might use them to reduce my habit and I guess I like that it is removing a lot of the added harmful chemicals regular smoking has, but mainly I like them because I can smoke anywhere now and I don't stink as bad." That's not a bad thing. But jeez, just be honest. Regulate them to minors. Have clearly stated ingredients for the juice or whatever you call it. And still restrict their usage to areas where smoking is allowed only (that last one is just for me, because while I still prefer e-cigarette vapor 100 times to none over second hand smoke, I still hate that stupid scented crap. Like a bunch of women which bad fruity perfume on. Oh, and because I think it looks stupid and I like restricting stupid looking stuff. Add fedoras and beards on men under the age of 40, while you're at it)
 
2014-03-26 09:40:13 AM  

YOU'RE ALL GOING TO DIE, BECAUSE SOMETHING YOU DO IS KILLING YOU.

 
2014-03-26 09:42:29 AM  

GoldSpider: HotWingConspiracy: Responding to the will of their constituents?

[cdn.vanillaforums.com image 186x140]


Well good news, they'll be voted out if they aren't doing that.
 
2014-03-26 09:47:21 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Well good news, they'll be voted out if they aren't doing that.


"Won't somebody please think of the children?!?"

Problem solved.
 
2014-03-26 09:54:08 AM  

Elegy: Ecigs are just another way for big tobacco to hook you


Just the opposite. Big Tobacco is what's keeping e-cigs being banned for obvious reasons.

/doesn't smoke anything
//annoyed that co-workers get to go on smoke breaks every 20 minutes
///try to go on vodka breaks and they get all pissed off
 
2014-03-26 09:57:02 AM  

hardinparamedic: Because, in the end, that's what it is


You are so focused on sucking cock that you can't have a conversation without bringing up your love of sucking cock.

hardinparamedic: All snark aside, can you link to those studies? I'd be genuinely interested in their quality, impact, and source publication.


No, you wouldn't.  You're a lying asshole.  You have no interest in actual facts.  You just like sucking dick and biatching.
 
2014-03-26 09:58:52 AM  

GoldSpider: HotWingConspiracy: Well good news, they'll be voted out if they aren't doing that.

"Won't somebody please think of the children?!?"

Problem solved.


You should reach out to the voters that hate children. If you've got a majority, your problematic notions of freedom will win the day.
 
2014-03-26 09:59:48 AM  

autopsybeverage: 433: I don't know how wise it is to be inhaling vegetable oil (or whatever) either.  Sure, you can exhale it, but plenty was left behind.  Nicotine is crazy addictive, too.  You're pledging to suck the cock of your favorite vaporizer company until you put it down for good.  I don't think a company marketing a nicotine delivery device outside of gum and patches has that many scruples.  Nicotine is not good for a body.

There are many things that are not good for a body.  Not too many of those things are addictive drugs like nicotine.

Would you be putting vegetable oil in your lungs under regular circumstances?

Smoking sure is great, though.  Dammit!  Why must it be so awful for us!

Before you go white-knighting the gum snd patch manufacturers, please consider that 98% of smokers who attempt to quit using these two methods will be active consumers of cigarettes again within two years of the quit attempt, and they know it. They are selling snake oil.


Citation please.
I went on the patch in 94 and was on for 6 months and went off and been off since then. I have had cigars every couple months (keeps the mosquitos away when camping) and a handful of cigarettes since but have still been off.
 
2014-03-26 10:06:05 AM  

Mugato: Just the opposite. Big Tobacco is what's keeping e-cigs being banned for obvious reasons.


Lol wat? Big tobacco wants ecig regulated like regular cigarettes. It's a way of regulating anyone out of the market that isn't big tobacco.

Amd if you're tired of your coworkers going outside for smoke breaks, what is keeping you from walking outside for a des hair break? Sounds like you have a problem and want to blame your coworkers for it. Classy.
 
2014-03-26 10:11:57 AM  
Des air?

Fresh air. Go fark yourself autocorrect.
 
2014-03-26 10:16:06 AM  

Elegy: Mugato: Just the opposite. Big Tobacco is what's keeping e-cigs being banned for obvious reasons.

Lol wat? Big tobacco wants ecig regulated like regular cigarettes. It's a way of regulating anyone out of the market that isn't big tobacco.

Amd if you're tired of your coworkers going outside for smoke breaks, what is keeping you from walking outside for a des hair break? Sounds like you have a problem and want to blame your coworkers for it. Classy.


Why would you think the tobacco industry wouldn't want to stamp out e-cigs? People are quitting tobacco for e-cigs.
 
2014-03-26 10:24:25 AM  
Same old arguments.

Nicotine is addictive, but it is not ad addictive alone as it is inside a cigarette.  The tobacco in cigarettes contain additional alkaloids (notably anatabine, anabasine, nornicotine) that function as MAOIs (antidepressants) that, co-administered with the naturally occurring nicotine, greatly enhance the addictive properties because of the pleasure/reward mechanism.  E-liquids do not contain these alkaloids.  (There are two companies that I know of that do produce "whole tobacco alkaloid" E-liquid that is intended for those sensitive to the absence of these alkaloids who can't quit using regular E-liquid, but these are rare, more expensive, and not recommended to anyone who's fine with regular E-liquid.)  Absent these alkaloids however, nicotine in isolation is actually not nearly as addictive, and it is far easier to wean yourself off of nicotine altogether (if that is your goal) from a platform of E-cigarettes than it is from tobacco cigarettes.

As for what's in the E-liquid?  Well, I can't speak for the cigalikes put out by a bunch of different companies (including the major tobacco companies) but every single respectable maker of E-liquid (especially those who belong to a standards organisation like AEMSA, ECTA, ECITA, etc.) uses pharmaceutical grade (USP) bases (vegetable glycerine, propylene glycol, USP-grade (99.5%+ pure) nicotine) and food-grade flavourings that use only a propylene glycol, alcohol,or triacetin base.  There are a few that use essential oils that I'm aware of, but I'm not too sure about the safety of that, and try to avoid them myself just out of an abundance of caution.

Proponents of E-cigs raise red flags when they bring up pro- arguments?  Have you seen the sort of stuff the anti e-cig lobby have been throwing up?  "E-cigs are being marketed to kids!" "E-cigs contain deadly poison!"  "E-cigs contain antifreeze!"  (my particular favourite -- PG is also a water-line antifreeze because of it low freezing point, so yes, it's an antifreeze -- one you pour right in the water supply, not the poisonous stuff you buy for your car at gas stations.)  Our reaction is simply a reaction to their mis- and dis-information.  Especially with the latest NYT hit piece "Selling poison by the barrel" where the "journalist" neglects mentioning that stuff like toothpaste accounts for more than 1000 times the number of annual poisonings in the USA, or that the only person who has ever died from E-liquid drank it deliberately to commit suicide.

Do E-cigs need regulation?  Damn right they do.  So does E-liquid.  Nobody is debating that -- the debate is over how much.  But is there any question that E-cigs save lives and are far more effective at getting people to quit cigarettes than any other method to date by a very wide margin?  No.  There is zero question.  "More study is needed" is the worst you'll hear from even the most sceptical, but reputable and honest, health professionals, but even they will admit that they think they're "probably"  better than smoking.  Even the peer-reviewed studies that are coming to the fore more frequently these days state that E-cigarettes are orders of magnitude safer than tobacco.

/Ex-smoker of 3.5 years.
//Still vape because I enjoy it, and I've never felt better.  Best thing I've done for myself.
 
2014-03-26 10:26:39 AM  
Big tobacco doesn't want e-cigs made illegal.  They want them highly regulated so the only people who can sell them are, by coincidence (and for our safety, I'm sure), owned by the big tobacco companies.
 
2014-03-26 10:33:44 AM  

Mugato: Why would you think the tobacco industry wouldn't want to stamp out e-cigs? People are quitting tobacco for e-cigs.


Why would big tobacco want to stamp out the hottest new thing in "smoking" and an industry that is growing at an enormous rate, when it can seize control of the entire industry and establish an oligopoly through federal regulation?

Which is precisely why there has been a big push, led by big tobacco, for the FDA to regulate ecigs as "tobacco products."  Which actually happened recently, until public outcry forced the FDA to roll those plans back.
 
2014-03-26 11:04:42 AM  

rikkards: autopsybeverage: 433: I don't know how wise it is to be inhaling vegetable oil (or whatever) either.  Sure, you can exhale it, but plenty was left behind.  Nicotine is crazy addictive, too.  You're pledging to suck the cock of your favorite vaporizer company until you put it down for good.  I don't think a company marketing a nicotine delivery device outside of gum and patches has that many scruples.  Nicotine is not good for a body.

There are many things that are not good for a body.  Not too many of those things are addictive drugs like nicotine.

Would you be putting vegetable oil in your lungs under regular circumstances?

Smoking sure is great, though.  Dammit!  Why must it be so awful for us!

Before you go white-knighting the gum snd patch manufacturers, please consider that 98% of smokers who attempt to quit using these two methods will be active consumers of cigarettes again within two years of the quit attempt, and they know it. They are selling snake oil.

Citation please.
I went on the patch in 94 and was on for 6 months and went off and been off since then. I have had cigars every couple months (keeps the mosquitos away when camping) and a handful of cigarettes since but have still been off.


First of all, congratulations on your success with cutting back to recreational use levels. Unfortunately I don't have a direct link to the study, but it shouldn't be too hard to google.
 
2014-03-26 11:21:21 AM  

Perducci: Assn


Only one comment on it.  "Assn" is one of the most irritating things I've seen in a while.  Ugh.

/yet using the shortened "e-cigs" doesn't give me the same nervous twitch... hm, I wonder what it is.
 
2014-03-26 11:24:09 AM  

hardinparamedic: Adolf Oliver Nipples: You do it every day. It's called "cooking". Those smells you love in your favorite restaurant? Yep, all kinds of volatile compounds, not the least of which is the oil it was cooked in.

[people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

Paracelsus frowns on your post. Vaporized oils directly from a nozzle in your mouth inhaled into your lungs is quite different from the chance a small amount of oil might accompany steam from a skillet.


Wow.

You can't taste vegetable oil in an E-cig.

But, have you ever been a fry cook before?

Try going into the kitchen of a restaurant that does a lot of frying...... you can feel, see, and taste the oil in the air.

Maybe we should be paying McDonalds workers a bunch more. They deserve hazard pay for having to breath in all those toxic oils!
 
2014-03-26 11:35:00 AM  

Elegy: Amd if you're tired of your coworkers going outside for smoke breaks, what is keeping you from walking outside for a des hair break? Sounds like you have a problem and want to blame your coworkers for it. Classy.


I find not being able to make it through the work day without frequent breaks to use drugs classy as well.
 
2014-03-26 11:52:39 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Elegy: Amd if you're tired of your coworkers going outside for smoke breaks, what is keeping you from walking outside for a des hair break? Sounds like you have a problem and want to blame your coworkers for it. Classy.

I find not being able to make it through the work day without frequent breaks to use drugs classy as well.


He says as he sips from his coffee mug with a smug sense of satisfaction.
 
2014-03-26 12:13:15 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: I find not being able to make it through the work day without frequent breaks to use drugs classy as well.


Oh, now it makes sense.  You don't like things like ecigs that can help smokers quit because your emotional wellbeing depends on having a large pool of people to judge.
 
2014-03-26 01:17:04 PM  

JuggleGeek: Big tobacco doesn't want e-cigs made illegal.  They want them highly regulated so the only people who can sell them are, by coincidence (and for our safety, I'm sure), owned by the big tobacco companies.


Bingo
 
2014-03-26 01:20:28 PM  
Big tobacco is all over this. We already function as if under FDA regulation (because the rules are already proposed, it's just a matter of the slow ass regulatory process catching up).
 
2014-03-26 01:28:33 PM  

Witness99: JuggleGeek: Big tobacco doesn't want e-cigs made illegal.  They want them highly regulated so the only people who can sell them are, by coincidence (and for our safety, I'm sure), owned by the big tobacco companies.

Bingo


And you're right about the safety part. Got hundreds of thousands to spend on safety and product quality? No?

You wouldn't believe the resources put in place by big tobacco to ensure safety.
 
2014-03-26 01:30:33 PM  

sjcousins: hardinparamedic: sjcousins: He's more of a fedora-wearing, brony, nurse but yeah, probably the best course of action.

I'm not your mother last night.

Men have been murdered for less horrendous accusations, Sir. The Holocaust was established on less offensive pretenses.

Sounds like something this guy would say.
[img.fark.net image 576x792]
Consider yourself favourited.


That's not a fedora, it's a trilby.

www.fashish.com
 
2014-03-26 03:12:39 PM  

Elegy: Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?


It's funny how every post you make reinforces the idea of you being an idiot.
 
2014-03-26 03:22:37 PM  

Elegy: Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?


It runs naturally with his type. Have an ex sister in law and her husband who do what Hardonparamedic does. You can't farking stand to be around them for more than a few minutes. The smugness, the superiority and general disdain for us unwashed masses make you want to punch them both right in the mouth.
 
2014-03-26 03:35:23 PM  

WTFDYW: Elegy: Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?

It runs naturally with his type. Have an ex sister in law and her husband who do what Hardonparamedic does. You can't farking stand to be around them for more than a few minutes. The smugness, the superiority and general disdain for us unwashed masses make you want to punch them both right in the mouth.


Ha! I thought I was the only one.

His Captain, and the State EMS Chief are pretty cool. I rattled their cage whilst doing an article about public employees wasting time.

After having to explain what a 'Brony' was, I had to wait about five minutes until the gal could catch her breath. "That explains a few things", was her eventual response.

What I found out about BronyMedic/Hardin/others is; He's not a bad kid, just extremely socially awkward, and only one brick shy of a load. He is actually well liked, and they will go out of their way to defend him.
 
2014-03-26 04:14:54 PM  

Elegy: Mugato: Why would you think the tobacco industry wouldn't want to stamp out e-cigs? People are quitting tobacco for e-cigs.

Why would big tobacco want to stamp out the hottest new thing in "smoking" and an industry that is growing at an enormous rate, when it can seize control of the entire industry and establish an oligopoly through federal regulation?

Which is precisely why there has been a big push, led by big tobacco, for the FDA to regulate ecigs as "tobacco products."  Which actually happened recently, until public outcry forced the FDA to roll those plans back.


That's really not how things work.
 
2014-03-26 06:02:20 PM  

Mugato: Elegy: Mugato: Why would you think the tobacco industry wouldn't want to stamp out e-cigs? People are quitting tobacco for e-cigs.

Why would big tobacco want to stamp out the hottest new thing in "smoking" and an industry that is growing at an enormous rate, when it can seize control of the entire industry and establish an oligopoly through federal regulation?

Which is precisely why there has been a big push, led by big tobacco, for the FDA to regulate ecigs as "tobacco products."  Which actually happened recently, until public outcry forced the FDA to roll those plans back.

That's really not how things work.


You guys (Oh You LOL)....

Don't listen to me. But I'm telling you that is precisely how it works.

See RIN 0910-AG38, Pub ID: Fall 2013

You guys are so funny :)
 
2014-03-26 06:12:16 PM  

Slam1263: WTFDYW: Elegy: Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?

It runs naturally with his type. Have an ex sister in law and her husband who do what Hardonparamedic does. You can't farking stand to be around them for more than a few minutes. The smugness, the superiority and general disdain for us unwashed masses make you want to punch them both right in the mouth.

Ha! I thought I was the only one.

His Captain, and the State EMS Chief are pretty cool. I rattled their cage whilst doing an article about public employees wasting time.

After having to explain what a 'Brony' was, I had to wait about five minutes until the gal could catch her breath. "That explains a few things", was her eventual response.

What I found out about BronyMedic/Hardin/others is; He's not a bad kid, just extremely socially awkward, and only one brick shy of a load. He is actually well liked, and they will go out of their way to defend him.


They should call him Radar O'Riley, if that's the case.
 
2014-03-26 06:20:28 PM  
E-cigs, which vaporize a liquid that contains nicotine, are much, much healthier than traditional burnt tobacco leaves.

If you're all butt hurt about that (and I'm sure you have your reasons)....it doesn't change the fact.

What you all should really be doing is hounding the people that burn marijuana leaves. That is also not nearly as safe as vaporizing a THC e-cig. (It's coming)
 
2014-03-26 06:24:11 PM  

hardinparamedic: It's funny how every post you make reinforces the idea of you being an idiot.


Aww, whatsamatter liddle buddy, that one strike a nerve? I sowwry.

Funny how you linked I article after article about smokeless tobacco. To CNN articles about nicotine and heart disease. Funny too how you confused vegetable OIL (which you cook with) with vegetable GLYCERINE (which is what is in ecigs).

You even said here:

hardinparamedic: can you link to those studies


And here I am, with a whole folder of links to research showing that ecigs pose no significant cancer threat and that there is literally no know biological pathway for the ingredients in ecigs to cause damage, and all you can do is call me an idiot?

Weak sauce, my friend, weak sauce. All of the other ponies are going to be disappointed in you. Some medical expert you are.

WTFDYW: It runs naturally with his type. Have an ex sister in law and her husband who do what Hardonparamedic does. You can't farking stand to be around them for more than a few minutes. The smugness, the superiority and general disdain for us unwashed masses make you want to punch them both right in the mouth.


First responder's disease. It's kinda like "nice guy syndrome" for professionals. The underlying assumption is that since a first responder helps people professionally, everyone owes it to them to listen to them and that they are somehow on a higher plane of being, smarter and kinder than everyone else. When in reality, they're unbearable people trying to force others into obligation for being so damn first-responsey.

Slam1263: What I found out about BronyMedic/Hardin/others is; He's not a bad kid, just extremely socially awkward, and only one brick shy of a load. He is actually well liked, and they will go out of their way to defend him.


I have him farkied as "harmless but an ass." You have to understand, being a socially awkward brony who saves people for a living in the Deep South causes a lot of stress on the psyche. It's natural that he acts out in public from time to time; the trick is you have to apply the proper corrective procedure. Next time you see his captain, tell him/her to swat him with a paper and say "NO" in a firm but clear voice when hardin starts acting up.
 
2014-03-26 06:51:01 PM  

hardinparamedic: Elegy: Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?

It's funny how every post you make reinforces the idea of you being an idiot.


I dunno about that man. I mean, I think the questioning of your motives is fine, but the conclusion is obviously a little wacky.

I read most of this thread and its' pretty apparent that you have a firm position on this, one that I happen to think isn't really based in a logical position, like say - harm reduction, and that you initially attempted to put on a veneer of concern trolling to make your argument.

Then when people started pushing back, you started posting dildo pictures. Obviously you felt the need to try to insult people rather than continue with interacting about the points you were trying to make.

If you had merely stopped at, "I think the FDA needs to regulate this" then that would have been sensible. Everything else was whargarble.
 
2014-03-26 07:02:29 PM  
Weak sauce.

Ok, I won't contribute anymore. My company doesn't allow me to represent them in public forums....BUT IF YOU ONLY KNEW LOLOLOL
 
2014-03-26 07:04:04 PM  
I have more hard core facts than anyone in this thread.
 
2014-03-26 07:59:38 PM  
Gee. Where'd he go? Must have ad to go save a vape overdose.

/not surprised.
 
2014-03-26 08:28:48 PM  

wavion: Gunther: wavion: smugcondescendingtwat.gif

No offense dude, but I'm pretty sure you lose the right to be smug and condescending in a thread where you claimed that the vast majority of smoking related deaths are caused by heart disease from nicotine.

I mean; that's some anti-vacc level nonsense right there.

The only word I would change about that is "vast." More people die from heart disease than cancer, and smoking is one of the main causes.


It's not the farking nicotine that causes the heart disease.  You keep making that claim, but you are farking wrong.
 
2014-03-26 08:57:25 PM  

WTFDYW: Gee. Where'd he go? Must have ad to go save a vape overdose.

/not surprised.


oh no. I'm right here. I just didn't want to interrupt your circle jerk of odd claims about me and attributing positions I've never claimed to me. Plus it's generally frowned upon to comment on FARK and drive.

By all means. Please continue.
 
2014-03-26 09:10:29 PM  

hardinparamedic: WTFDYW: Gee. Where'd he go? Must have ad to go save a vape overdose.

/not surprised.

oh no. I'm right here. I just didn't want to interrupt your circle jerk of odd claims about me and attributing positions I've never claimed to me. Plus it's generally frowned upon to comment on FARK and drive.

By all means. Please continue.


Nice to see you are still here, Radar.
 
2014-03-26 09:19:09 PM  

WTFDYW: Nice to see you are still here, Radar.


Of course. I'd hate to disappoint you by giving you the impression that you might have to type furiously at someone else to feel important.
 
2014-03-26 09:42:51 PM  

hardinparamedic: WTFDYW: Nice to see you are still here, Radar.

Of course. I'd hate to disappoint you by giving you the impression that you might have to type furiously at someone else to feel important.


I used to like your posts a lot. You used to be helpful. But you have slowly built a soap box to stand on and became a lecturer. Most people don't like being lectured to.

/just sayin
 
2014-03-26 10:04:28 PM  

WTFDYW: I used to like your posts a lot. You used to be helpful. But you have slowly built a soap box to stand on and became a lecturer. Most people don't like being lectured to.

/just sayin


I just want to point out something here.

The whole reason I even posted in this thread in the first place was because of people who were touting the absolute safety of e-cigs and vapes over cigarettes and other forms of smokeless tobacco, when there is a good amount of evidence out there that, although nowhere near the risk level of the aforementioned smokeless tobacco or cigs, still has some questonable risks that need to be investigted. I even linked high quality studies from high impact journals pointing out such, and questioning the idea that profit from anti-smoking drugs was the motive for trying to ban e-cigs, when in reality the party the article is talking about would stand to profit far more from the continued use of cigarettes, and even electronic cigs.

The only reason I called Elegy an idiot was because I was accused of enjoying keeping people sick. I was outright told that I enjoy watching people die of cancer.

People who don't even know me personally have accused me of being on a power trip where I enjoy abusing and harming my patients for attention.

I was accused of demanding or supporting a ban on e-cigarettes when the only thing I was pointing out was that nicotine is not an absolutely safe compound as some people seem to be arguing, and that there are still unknown factors with e-cigs.

So yeah. Forgive me when I refer to it as the typical circle jerk that comes about from the same posters whenever I post something contrary.
 
2014-03-26 10:07:41 PM  

hardinparamedic: WTFDYW: I used to like your posts a lot. You used to be helpful. But you have slowly built a soap box to stand on and became a lecturer. Most people don't like being lectured to.

/just sayin

I just want to point out something here.

The whole reason I even posted in this thread in the first place was because of people who were touting the absolute safety of e-cigs and vapes over cigarettes and other forms of smokeless tobacco, when there is a good amount of evidence out there that, although nowhere near the risk level of the aforementioned smokeless tobacco or cigs, still has some questonable risks that need to be investigted. I even linked high quality studies from high impact journals pointing out such, and questioning the idea that profit from anti-smoking drugs was the motive for trying to ban e-cigs, when in reality the party the article is talking about would stand to profit far more from the continued use of cigarettes, and even electronic cigs.

The only reason I called Elegy an idiot was because I was accused of enjoying keeping people sick. I was outright told that I enjoy watching people die of cancer.

People who don't even know me personally have accused me of being on a power trip where I enjoy abusing and harming my patients for attention.

I was accused of demanding or supporting a ban on e-cigarettes when the only thing I was pointing out was that nicotine is not an absolutely safe compound as some people seem to be arguing, and that there are still unknown factors with e-cigs.

So yeah. Forgive me when I refer to it as the typical circle jerk that comes about from the same posters whenever I post something contrary.


You've already proven yourself homophobic, it isn't a far shot to assume you hate people in general.
 
2014-03-26 10:13:54 PM  

Novart: You've already proven yourself homophobic, it isn't a far shot to assume you hate people in general.


Uh. You do realize I'm openly bisexual and dating a man, right?
 
2014-03-26 11:19:54 PM  
Hey hardinparamedic, let's review some of your recent posting history:

You telling someone they failed at reading comprehension

You patronizingly using "do go on" and "tell us more"

You telling someone they are "Incredibly, unabashedly, Heartland Foundation bought and paid for by Phillip Morris level Bullshiat wrong."

You posting semi-NSFW dildo and simulated cum shot inline

You posting another inline dildo

You posting long blocks of Latin, aka "shiatposting"

You posting your mom joke directed at another user

You posting another inline dildo

And now then there's this:

The only reason I called Elegy an idiot was because I was accused of enjoying keeping people sick. I was outright told that I enjoy watching people die of cancer.

People who don't even know me personally have accused me of being on a power trip where I enjoy abusing and harming my patients for attention.


Presumably because I cracked this:

Also not surprised hardinparamedic wants people to keep smoking. If he doesn't have sick people to help, where will his smug sense of self-importance and superiority come from?

Which obviously went way over your head because it so obviously a sarcastic crack on your behavior not your professional competence.

Well this is what I say to that:
i.imgur.com

Suck it up, buttercup. It's time to put on your big boy pants and get onto the internet. You give as you get, and you get no sympathy for whining about how others treat you when you treat others as you have treated them.

As a bonus, you're flat out wrong and fighting on the wrong side. E-cigarettes have the potential to vastly reduce the harm from smoking. If you are serious about not wanting people to die of cancer, then read the links I posted.

Better yet, come into a thread and ask those of us who have experience with and who have researched the technology. Do you think any of us made the transition on a whim? I build my own coils from scratch and am just starting to mix my own juice - do you honestly think I haven't heavily researched what I am doing? There are numerous people here on Fark that taught me about the technology for the price of asking, and I would be happy to teach you what you obviously don't know (cooking oil for farks sake!). It's ridiculously simple.

But until you quit being a dick, you can suck it up and you can either prove your skepticism is warranted with the science you demand of everyone else or you can tuck your tail between your farking legs and slink out of here in defeat.

Be safe driving.
 
2014-03-26 11:50:03 PM  

Elegy: But until you quit being a dick, you can suck it up and you can either prove your skepticism is warranted with the science you demand of everyone else or you can tuck your tail between your farking legs and slink out of here in defeat.


That's nice. You like E-cigs. Really. I get it. How dare I attack something you like.

I've based my skepticism on articles posted in the JAMA and the position statement of the American Heart and Stroke Association

You keep attacking me on the basis I am trying to outright ban something you enjoy, and which you claim has the potential to reduce the harm caused by cigarette smoking, a claim which has not panned out fully based on peer-reviewed research published  this month in the journal of the American Medical Association, which demonstrated no long term change in smoking behaviors in users in E-Cigarettes when compared with other treatment and smoking cessation aids.

www.laprogressive.com

Again. Let me state this. I do not care that you smoke e-cigarettes.

I do not are if you enjoy them or not.

I do not want you to have your favorite smoking replacement banned by the FBI. CIA. DEA. FDA. Or the YMCA.

The only reason I waded into this craphole of an argument was because of the claims made from various people in this thread, namely that e-cigarettes were a miracle smoking cessation aid, that the concerns raised by various professional and medical agencies and organizations were done out of a profit motivation, and that nicotine products were harmless.

In addition, the link you posted about nicotine was about cancer risk. The other link you posted ignores the long term, and documented cardiovascular effects which occur with the use of nicotine-containing products - hypoxia induced by cigarette smoking and smoking byproducts was not even what I was talking about. Which I haven't claimed in this thread. (If I have, please quote where I have indicated that nicotine is the primary cancer causitive agent in cigarette smoke) What I was talking about was the cardiovascular risk, which the AHA feel strongly enough about to state that any education about smoking should be about complete cessation, not "alternatives".

Until the AHA and other major medical bodies change their position, I will not agree with you on the matters I stated, and I will continue to be skeptical about claims about e-cigarettes not being a potential source for harm.

I'll even agree with you that they are not near as harmful as smoking or smokeless tobacco products.

But harmless, I won't agree with. And I'll continue to argue with that with you unless you can prove otherwise.
 
2014-03-26 11:50:39 PM  
Elegy, keep in mind that the asshole you are responding to trolls in every thread he's in.  You can't have a real conversation with him.
 
2014-03-26 11:52:57 PM  

hardinparamedic: But harmless, I won't agree with. And I'll continue to argue with that with you unless you can prove otherwise.


You'll keep posting pictures from your collection of "guys sucking on dildos" no matter what we prove.
 
2014-03-26 11:54:01 PM  

JuggleGeek: Elegy, keep in mind that the asshole you are responding to trolls in every thread he's in.  You can't have a real conversation with him.


Troll calling someone else a troll.

You're so meta, you cheeky hipster you.
 
2014-03-26 11:55:47 PM  

JuggleGeek: hardinparamedic: But harmless, I won't agree with. And I'll continue to argue with that with you unless you can prove otherwise.

You'll keep posting pictures from your collection of "guys sucking on dildos" no matter what we prove.


You know, it would really help your argument if you weren't talking about a well known skit from the Whitest Kids You Know lampshading smoking cessation aids.

Several other posters in the thread even knew what it was.
 
2014-03-27 12:01:09 AM  
Pointing out that you're a cocksucker who loves pictures of guys sucking on dildoes makes me a troll?

You're the asshole that posted the pics.

You're also lying about how people are vaping oil.
 
2014-03-27 12:03:21 AM  

JuggleGeek: Pointing out that you're a cocksucker who loves pictures of guys sucking on dildoes makes me a troll?

You're the asshole that posted the pics.


No, going the gay porn route for a well known comedy skit that was just a simple google search away, and which I even gave the name of in the thread makes you a troll AND a potential homophobe.

JuggleGeek: You're also lying about how people are vaping oil.


And had you actually just called me out over this, rather than going on a bizarre tirade based on your idea of my porn viewing habits, I would have addressed you and said I was mistaken and you were right about what you said.
 
2014-03-27 12:12:21 AM  
Funny how you are the asshole posting the pics, but you're claiming that I was the one taking the gay porn route.

Everything you say is a lie, so I can't be surprised that you're calling me a homophobe.
 
2014-03-27 12:13:41 AM  

JuggleGeek: Everything you say is a lie, so I can't be surprised that you're calling me a homophobe.


Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, no matter how trollish it is.

Have a great night!
 
2014-03-27 12:24:35 AM  

Eddy Gurge: hardinparamedic: E-cigarettes are already showing to be of dubious actual benefit in cessation of smoking in peer reviewed studies. And the fact that many of the manufactured oil brands contain compounds known to do both lung and cardiac injury (diactyl and derivatives from flavoring, and nicotine) is enough to make someone worry about it as an informed consumer

I know I'll regret this in later comments when fully green, but...  I'm skeptical of the cessation studies for several reasons.  The main one would be, did they really want to quit?  I mean really want to. If I were asked in a study run 4 months ago, I'd say "yep, tried them a while back, they suck".  I did try one, just to see back then.  Nope not for me.  As far as oil brands, I agree.  Stay with reputable U.S. manufacturers that give you the "Nutrition Label".  There are plenty of them.  If you're buying something filled in China, or a company that won't divulge (Tru!), you are an idiot.  Nicotine, as far as I know, does not do lung injury.  Enlighten me on that one, as I may have missed that.


Actually some of the Chinese stuff is even safer than a lot of the US stuff. One thing to look for is ISO certification as well as ingredients.
 
2014-03-27 01:11:26 AM  

hardinparamedic: I've based my skepticism on articles posted in the JAMA and the position statement of the American Heart and Stroke Association


Great. That's one for you and how many for me?

You keep attacking me on the basis I am trying to outright ban something you enjoy, and which you claim has the potential to reduce the harm caused by cigarette smoking, a claim which has not panned out fully based on peer-reviewed research published  this month in the journal of the American Medical Association, which demonstrated no long term change in smoking behaviors in users in E-Cigarettes when compared with other treatment and smoking cessation aids.

I'm not attacking you because you want to ban something I enjoy. I'm replying to you because you obviously have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

I have never said ecigs are a 100% effective cessation device. In fact, I never said anything about cessation.

I said that there was nothing in ecigs that could cause cancer, and posted links showing that the level of harm caused by the ingredients in cigarettes is virtually nil.


Again. Let me state this. I do not care that you smoke e-cigarettes.

I do not are if you enjoy them or not.

I do not want you to have your favorite smoking replacement banned by the FBI. CIA. DEA. FDA. Or the YMCA.

The only reason I waded into this craphole of an argument was because of the claims made from various people in this thread, namely that e-cigarettes were a miracle smoking cessation aid, that the concerns raised by various professional and medical agencies and organizations were done out of a profit motivation, and that nicotine products were harmless.

In addition, the link you posted about nicotine was about cancer risk. The other link you posted ignores the long term, and documented cardiovascular effects which occur with the use of nicotine-containing products - hypoxia induced by cigarette smoking and smoking byproducts was not even what I was talking about. Which I haven't claimed in this thread. (If I have, please quote where I have indicated that nicotine is the primary cancer causitive agent in cigarette smoke) What I was talking about was the cardiovascular risk, which the AHA feel strongly enough about to state that any education about smoking should be about complete cessation, not "alternatives".

Until the AHA and other major medical bodies change their position, I will not agree with you on the matters I stated, and I will continue to be skeptical about claims about e-cigarettes not being a potential source for harm.

I'll even agree with you that they are not near as harmful as smoking or smokeless tobacco products.

But harmless, I won't agree with. And I'll continue to argue with that with you unless you can prove otherwise.


First, there is so much wrong here is frankly astonishing. What more do you want me to prove? How do you want me to prove it? I've posted numerous links already, that you obviously didn't read more than the abstracts. One of those posts had another 100 citations on the safety of ecigs. One of them showed that the ingredients in ecigs could not contribute to arterial hardening. One of them locked mommies in cages for 12 months, pumped the cages full of one of the main ingredients in vapor, and then autopsied the monkeys; the researchers found no impairment or abnormalities in lung function.

Do you want more? Because it's not going to help if you don't actually mean it when you say you want the information. If you don't read the articles I you request, then it doesn't matter how many I post for you.

So how else am I to "prove" it to you? What standard are you trying to hold me to? I'm honestly curious.

Second, you're the one insisting on this ridiculous standard of "zero harm." A link I posted showed that ecigs contained 1% or less of the toxins of cigarettes. Another link I posted was a study where animals were kept in a cage and saturated with PG vapor for 12 months and then autopsied, and showed no detrimental impairments to lung functions or abnormalities. I also posted a link that showed there was no known mechanism by which ecigs could cause cancer.

Since the research on whether ecigs are a viable CESSATION device in the sense of quitting both smoking and vaping is contradictory, I will concede the point that by switching to vaping you might not give up inhaling nicotine into your lungs. You might very well continue vaping because you find the habit impossible to kick.

I will also concede that nicotine alone may not be harmless. I don't think it is as harmful as you think, but I'll let that one go.

EVEN IF I concede the points above, consider that ecigs contain 1% or less of the same toxins as cigarettes, according to the peer reviewed study I posted. If someone switches to vapor for half of the times they otherwise would have smoked, say when they are working, then they are replacing 50% of their exposure to cigarette smoke - which causes a large amount of harm - with exposed to vapor - something that causes, if not no harm, then much, much less.

There are 4 main ingredients in the juice you vaporize. Two of them are widely used as food additive, in asthma inhalers, and in fog machines already! And have been proven to be biologically inert. One of them is pure, extracted nicotine. And the final, flavoring, is only present in trace amounts. All four of these ingredients are already regulated by the FDA to ensure quality and consistency. Compare, please, to the toxins, tar, and nicotine in cigarettes.

So you do some soul searching and ask yourself this: if you could have given all of those people that smoked themselves to an early grave a substitute that would reduce the harm from smoking, would you? Even knowing that it might do some smaller amount of harm? Or that they might not entirely give up smoking even with it, but might substitute half their smoking time?

Or are you going to sit there and tell me with a straight face that "they might do SOME hard so OMG BAD" when there is an real alternative to smoking that is rapidly growing in popularity? An alternative that might not allow someone to kick the nicotine habit, but it does deliver nicotine in a far safer and controlled manner, using a carrier base that has been proven to be completely biologically inert?

You're seriously telling me that I should avoid ecigarettes or that ecigs are bad because they MIGHT do some harm, despite all peer-reviewed science saying that they are an enormous improvement over the habit they replace?

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you do actually want to perpetuate smoking so you can continue to feel smug about being a paramedic and superior to all of us dummies.
 
2014-03-27 01:13:29 AM  
Locked mommies in a cage?

Kinky.

That was supposed to be monkeys.

Me and autocorrect bouts to have fisticuffs.
 
2014-03-27 06:38:17 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Farkingwhatever: devildog123: My FIL used to cough constantly when he had his 2 pack a day habit.  6 months into his e-cig, no more coughing.  He actually has started running, and is doing a 5K next month.  fark you ALA, e-cigs are awesome.

Same with me. I previously smoked 2 packs a day (insane). I usually coughed like the devil clearing out shiat... now, never.
The negative effects with smoking are due to TOBACCO, NOT NICOTINE. Research this, I dare you farkers.
Same reason why chewing tobacco sucks!

I used to smoke almost 2 packs of these a day (for about 25yrs):

[kraftstobaccoblog.files.wordpress.com image 360x640]

I tried e-cigs, not for me, so I just quit... but then again, I have always been able to do that (which is unusual)... most people can't simply quit.



SWEET. TASTY. DIVINE.
 
2014-03-27 06:50:32 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Farkingwhatever: devildog123: My FIL used to cough constantly when he had his 2 pack a day habit.  6 months into his e-cig, no more coughing.  He actually has started running, and is doing a 5K next month.  fark you ALA, e-cigs are awesome.

Same with me. I previously smoked 2 packs a day (insane). I usually coughed like the devil clearing out shiat... now, never.
The negative effects with smoking are due to TOBACCO, NOT NICOTINE. Research this, I dare you farkers.
Same reason why chewing tobacco sucks!

I used to smoke almost 2 packs of these a day (for about 25yrs):

[kraftstobaccoblog.files.wordpress.com image 360x640]

I tried e-cigs, not for me, so I just quit... but then again, I have always been able to do that (which is unusual)... most people can't simply quit.


-Since you have ALWAYS been able to do that, that proves you NEVER will quit. Have a nice day!
 
2014-03-27 08:04:25 AM  
Well, THIS thread went around the bend pretty quick.
 
2014-03-27 08:56:37 AM  

Egoy3k: HotWingConspiracy: Elegy: Amd if you're tired of your coworkers going outside for smoke breaks, what is keeping you from walking outside for a des hair break? Sounds like you have a problem and want to blame your coworkers for it. Classy.

I find not being able to make it through the work day without frequent breaks to use drugs classy as well.

He says as he sips from his coffee mug with a smug sense of satisfaction.


Funny thing, I can drink while I'm working.  I don't have to leave my desk and inconvenience  everyone else due to my selfish habit. Plus I can go forever without coffee and not turn in to a raging moron. And it's easy to be self satisfied when you don't smell like shiat all day.

GoldSpider: HotWingConspiracy: I find not being able to make it through the work day without frequent breaks to use drugs classy as well.

Oh, now it makes sense.  You don't like things like ecigs that can help smokers quit because your emotional wellbeing depends on having a large pool of people to judge.


Actually the numbers say they don't do such a great job as a quitting assistant. And you're the upset emotional one here. I just get to kick back and watch you cry.
 
2014-03-27 12:31:22 PM  

GoldSpider: Just like I said, "because feelings".


No, because as medical professionals they have concerns that it acts as a gateway to regular smoking. Nicotine is highly addictive and it is not an unreasonable to believe that use of e-cigs will lead to use of the real thing. Study would be required to ascertain the risk but it doesn't mean they should be unregulated in the meantime.
 
2014-03-27 02:01:04 PM  

drxym: GoldSpider: Just like I said, "because feelings".

No, because as medical professionals they have concerns that it acts as a gateway to regular smoking. Nicotine is highly addictive and it is not an unreasonable to believe that use of e-cigs will lead to use of the real thing. Study would be required to ascertain the risk but it doesn't mean they should be unregulated in the meantime.


My threshold for determining the need for regulation is a bit higher than "reasonable belief".
 
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