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(Gamasutra)   Female game designer explains how to create more diversity in games - any brogrammers want to mansplain why she's wrong?   (gamasutra.com ) divider line 237
    More: Interesting, girl gamer, recruitment tool, personal project, Wizards of the Coast, Will Wright, gender differences, Penny Arcade, joy  
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3211 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Mar 2014 at 4:50 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-25 03:16:08 PM  
A little long-winded(I started skimming about halfway through) and I don't know what this kerfuffle with Penny Arcade is about but generally her points were cogent and well thought out and researched.
 
2014-03-25 03:35:15 PM  
lh5.ggpht.com

/oblig
 
2014-03-25 04:21:30 PM  

Voiceofreason01: A little long-winded(I started skimming about halfway through) and I don't know what this kerfuffle with Penny Arcade is about but generally her points were cogent and well thought out and researched.


Penny Arcade got a lot of flack for their rather poor response to the Dickwolves joke (personally I thought the original comic was hilarious, but the Team Dickwolves shirts were assholish). Lots of women were getting harrassed at their con. So they decided to have a focus on inclusivity...which is good...but it ended up being pretty much an "inclusivity shed" stuck in the back corner of the convention.
 
2014-03-25 04:29:55 PM  
That's a lot of...words.

Dear "brogrammers" - don't be a dick.

Book it, done.
 
2014-03-25 04:43:07 PM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Voiceofreason01: A little long-winded(I started skimming about halfway through) and I don't know what this kerfuffle with Penny Arcade is about but generally her points were cogent and well thought out and researched.

Penny Arcade got a lot of flack for their rather poor response to the Dickwolves joke (personally I thought the original comic was hilarious, but the Team Dickwolves shirts were assholish). Lots of women were getting harrassed at their con. So they decided to have a focus on inclusivity...which is good...but it ended up being pretty much an "inclusivity shed" stuck in the back corner of the convention.


I have since found a couple articles about that and now that I've read a few I do vaguely remember all that going on. I agree that the original comic was funny(if in poor taste) but they should have backed down after people called them on it instead of doubling(then tripling) down on the stupidity. Their response was, at least, irresponsible and I can see why people are offended at this point.
 
2014-03-25 04:46:44 PM  
Video game sexism thread?

www.reactiongifs.us
 
2014-03-25 04:54:58 PM  
people are still crying about the dick wolves thing and penny arcade? wasn't that years ago?
 
2014-03-25 04:58:20 PM  

tlchwi02: people are still crying about the dick wolves thing and penny arcade? wasn't that years ago?


Yes, but their right to never be offended by anything, ever, was infringed upon and those scars  never heal.
 
2014-03-25 04:58:56 PM  
Sin_City_Superhero:

img.fark.net

I thought women were good with irrational numbers and dividing by half the sum of whatever the man has.
 
2014-03-25 05:02:39 PM  

China White Tea: tlchwi02: people are still crying about the dick wolves thing and penny arcade? wasn't that years ago?

Yes, but their right to never be offended by anything, ever, was infringed upon and those scars  never heal.


A lot of the complaints about the original comic were reasonable and PA's(Mike) response to those complaints was over pretty dickish.
 
2014-03-25 05:03:28 PM  
Whatever. Artificial forced diversity for diversity's sake is utter horseshiat. Just let people do what they like. If they happen to form groups based off interests that aren't an exact makeup of all ethnic/gender groups, who farking cares. People who worry about this kind of thing need to get over themselves.
 
2014-03-25 05:06:50 PM  

taurusowner: Whatever. Artificial forced diversity for diversity's sake is utter horseshiat. Just let people do what they like. If they happen to form groups based off interests that aren't an exact makeup of all ethnic/gender groups, who farking cares. People who worry about this kind of thing need to get over themselves.


Her point is that women are being actively discouraged from getting into game development as a career. If you cannot see why this is a problem then there's nothing I can do for you.
 
2014-03-25 05:07:31 PM  

Voiceofreason01: A lot of the complaints about the original comic were reasonable and PA's(Mike) response to those complaints was over pretty dickish.


there are a lot of reasonable things to stay offended about for years. this is not one of those things.
 
2014-03-25 05:10:25 PM  
I think it's just a demographic issue that will sort itself out in time. The original video games crew were men. The generation that grew up on those first consoles and computers were mostly boys. Now that games are everywhere and everyone is playing them, the base of people that play them and want to make them will expand. Demographic reasons already explain the recent semi-explosion of women already in the industry calling for more diversity. They simply didn't exist in the early years to make the argument. Now they do. I don't see it as something that needs to be pushed all that hard.
 
2014-03-25 05:11:12 PM  

taurusowner: Whatever. Artificial forced diversity for diversity's sake is utter horseshiat. Just let people do what they like. If they happen to form groups based off interests that aren't an exact makeup of all ethnic/gender groups, who farking cares. People who worry about this kind of thing need to get over themselves.


It matters because the status quo is incredibly hostile to groups who aren't straight white men. Sometimes a culture shift is needed.  You seem to think the goal is to get every workforce to look like a Benetton ad. The goal is more like getting to the point where women can go to work - and even (gasp) play games - without getting endless barrages of rape threats, both "jokes" and serious.
 
2014-03-25 05:12:26 PM  

Voiceofreason01: taurusowner: Whatever. Artificial forced diversity for diversity's sake is utter horseshiat. Just let people do what they like. If they happen to form groups based off interests that aren't an exact makeup of all ethnic/gender groups, who farking cares. People who worry about this kind of thing need to get over themselves.

Her point is that women are being actively discouraged from getting into game development as a career. If you cannot see why this is a problem then there's nothing I can do for you.


What has equality ever done for us? Lowered wages, destroyed family values, and increased divorce rates that is what. Women should just shut up, get out of the workforce and go back to the kitchen.
 
2014-03-25 05:12:30 PM  

Voiceofreason01: China White Tea: tlchwi02: people are still crying about the dick wolves thing and penny arcade? wasn't that years ago?

Yes, but their right to never be offended by anything, ever, was infringed upon and those scars  never heal.

A lot of the complaints about the original comic were reasonable and PA's(Mike) response to those complaints was over pretty dickish.


Definitely.

taurusowner: Whatever. Artificial forced diversity for diversity's sake is utter horseshiat. Just let people do what they like. If they happen to form groups based off interests that aren't an exact makeup of all ethnic/gender groups, who farking cares. People who worry about this kind of thing need to get over themselves.


Maybe because the gaming industry does largely contain females, even if perhaps the vast majority are not in programming positions. Maybe because lots of women play games today, even if non-traditional non-console games. And maybe because PA is a mouthpiece for that industry and not only participates to critique games and gaming culture but also uses their platform to berate and bully others and part of this seems to be espousing misogynistic beliefs, even if they don't realize they are consciously doing so.

And they should know better, having been bullied in their own childhood.

Personally I think what happened in the strip was overblown, but it was the response to those criticisms that really tells the true story about them.
 
2014-03-25 05:13:12 PM  
I like The Sims 3, I find it very entertaining and in the last steam sale I bought up almost all of its expansions.  There, I said it.
 
2014-03-25 05:13:13 PM  
She's wrong because she's a game designer who's more interested in being a diversity bacteriophage than designing farking video games.

If you need someone to provide you with 'a lot of initiatives' to do something, you probably aren't going to be very useful.
 
2014-03-25 05:13:16 PM  
female gamer thread?

img46.imageshack.us
img833.imageshack.us
img716.imageshack.us
 
2014-03-25 05:13:50 PM  

tlchwi02: there are a lot of reasonable things to stay offended about for years. this is not one of those things.


Who's offended? The author was just introducing herself by telling readers about something well known that she has written.
 
2014-03-25 05:16:04 PM  

taurusowner: Whatever. Artificial forced diversity for diversity's sake is utter horseshiat. Just let people do what they like. If they happen to form groups based off interests that aren't an exact makeup of all ethnic/gender groups, who farking cares. People who worry about this kind of thing need to get over themselves.


It's not just for diversity's sake. Games can appeal to broader markets with more perspectives involved. I am a casual gamer, and I usually purchase creative games with not much action.
 
2014-03-25 05:16:22 PM  
any brogrammers want to mansplain why she's wrong?

sure. you see, the same issue exists in the sanitation departments with their even more shockingly large gender gap, therefore it's ok to grope women at tech conventions

also there was that lady who got a guy fired for dick jokes

Voiceofreason01: I agree that the original comic was funny(if in poor taste)


eh, mentioning rape as an example of something that is unthinkably horrific to show ludonarrative dissonance isn't even an offensive use of it

it was more a storm of some people offended, other people offended at the offense, other people offended at THAT, and generally everyone involved being a shiathead that caused people to still be mad about it years later
 
2014-03-25 05:16:33 PM  

JNowe: She's wrong because she's a game designer who's more interested in being a diversity bacteriophage than designing farking video games.

If you need someone to provide you with 'a lot of initiatives' to do something, you probably aren't going to be very useful.


Thats farking awesome. You win the thread.
 
2014-03-25 05:17:06 PM  
Most consumers in the world of prostitution are male.  But, most people who work in the world of prostitution are female.  This demographic unbalance needs to be fixed!
 
2014-03-25 05:17:51 PM  

Voiceofreason01: taurusowner: Whatever. Artificial forced diversity for diversity's sake is utter horseshiat. Just let people do what they like. If they happen to form groups based off interests that aren't an exact makeup of all ethnic/gender groups, who farking cares. People who worry about this kind of thing need to get over themselves.

Her point is that women are being actively discouraged from getting into game development as a career. If you cannot see why this is a problem then there's nothing I can do for you.


I actively discourage men and women from getting into game development as a career if you want any stability whatsoever in your work.  I may work long hours some weeks, but I've never been under the gun of a release date deadline like the horror stories the game industry produces.

Hell, isn't a good portion of the problem in game development is people work in the field for a few years, figure out it really isn't all that it is cracked up to be, and then split, leaving a new batch of eager newbs fresh out of college to be abused by the publishing studios?
 
2014-03-25 05:18:49 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: Lowered wages,


Reagan

family values,

that's not a real thing outside political speeches and sermons

and increased divorce rates that is what.

uh....the Nineteenth Amendment?
 
2014-03-25 05:19:28 PM  

stonicus: Most consumers in the world of prostitution are male.  But, most people who work in the world of prostitution are female.  This demographic unbalance needs to be fixed!


What really needs to be fixed here is your ability to make an analogy. Start by bashing yourself in the head with a brick.
 
2014-03-25 05:19:45 PM  

meat0918: Hell, isn't a good portion of the problem in game development is people work in the field for a few years, figure out it really isn't all that it is cracked up to be, and then split, leaving a new batch of eager newbs fresh out of college to be abused by the publishing studios?


no a big portion of the problem in game development is AAA companies running slaveships fueled by $100 bills who make up for their inability to attract anyone with any creative talent by adding in cutscenes, objective markers, and lens flare
 
2014-03-25 05:20:20 PM  

JNowe: She's wrong because she's a game designer who's more interested in being a diversity bacteriophage than designing farking video games.

If you need someone to provide you with 'a lot of initiatives' to do something, you probably aren't going to be very useful.


You sound oppressed.  Tell us all about how this one article on the subject, representing more actual content in the field than you're likely to ever manage, is the sum total of her work and how that affects you.
 
2014-03-25 05:20:54 PM  

sprawl15: meat0918: Hell, isn't a good portion of the problem in game development is people work in the field for a few years, figure out it really isn't all that it is cracked up to be, and then split, leaving a new batch of eager newbs fresh out of college to be abused by the publishing studios?

no a big portion of the problem in game development is AAA companies running slaveships fueled by $100 bills who make up for their inability to attract anyone with any creative talent by adding in cutscenes, objective markers, and lens flare


Wouldn't that fall under "Abused by the publishing studios"?
 
2014-03-25 05:21:07 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Who's offended? The author was just introducing herself by telling readers about something well known that she has written.


about the polemic she wrote about the penny arcade thing. presumebly it was not complimentary.

more to the point of this article, it was far too long for the medium and presumed audience. she should find a nice HR industry publication for tech companies and submit it to them.
 
2014-03-25 05:21:37 PM  

meat0918: Wouldn't that fall under "Abused by the publishing studios"?


not as used
 
2014-03-25 05:22:03 PM  
Because women don't want to put up with the shiat hours and low pay (compared to similar jobs outside games) of the games industry?
 
2014-03-25 05:23:21 PM  

stonicus: Most consumers in the world of prostitution are male.  But, most people who work in the world of prostitution are female.  This demographic unbalance needs to be fixed!


If you would like to encourage more men to be prostitutes I'll buy you a ticket to San Francisco to help out the cause.
 
2014-03-25 05:23:43 PM  

sprawl15: meat0918: Wouldn't that fall under "Abused by the publishing studios"?

not as used


point conceded.

EA treats its people worse than.....

ummmmm....
 
2014-03-25 05:25:48 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I think it's just a demographic issue that will sort itself out in time. The original video games crew were men. The generation that grew up on those first consoles and computers were mostly boys. Now that games are everywhere and everyone is playing them, the base of people that play them and want to make them will expand. Demographic reasons already explain the recent semi-explosion of women already in the industry calling for more diversity. They simply didn't exist in the early years to make the argument. Now they do. I don't see it as something that needs to be pushed all that hard.


I find the situation of SJW types and video games in recent years a bit off putting.

Growing up, I was a nerdy misfit. I'm on Fark, so that's probably still true. Video games were an escape for me, a safe space if you will, where the only judgment was gaming ability. Nothing else mattered.

I didn't fit into the real world, so I found a space where I was welcome. I was ostracized for doing so, before gaming was cool.

Now the same type of people who judged me and made my life unpleasant want me to let them into my world, and change things to suit them.

Fark that.

If you want games that suit you, fine. Make your own, or buy ones that you like. Don't expect an entire industry to adapt to you, and in the process, alienate the people who made it possible.
 
2014-03-25 05:25:50 PM  
sprawl15:eh, mentioning rape as an example of something that is unthinkably horrific to show ludonarrative dissonance isn't even an offensive use of it

it was more a storm of some people offended, other people offended at the offense, other people offended at THAT, and generally everyone involved being a shiathead that caused people to still be mad about it years later


As I said: the comic is funny but in poor taste. I can see why people, particularly a rape survivor, might be offended. The real problem(and what lost them sponsors) wasn't the original comic but with PA's response to the criticism. If they had apologized then it would have been largely a non-issue. Instead they made a t-shirt mocking rape victims.
 
2014-03-25 05:26:04 PM  
There are tons of jobs in the gaming industries for women....

booth babes!

img823.imageshack.us
 
2014-03-25 05:26:53 PM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: It matters because the status quo is incredibly hostile to groups who aren't straight white men.


Horse poopy.
 
2014-03-25 05:28:07 PM  
I don't care who actually does the work in creating the sexist, totally male-oriented video games that I enjoy.

If girls want to make video games with scantily clad women disemboweling things, more power to them.
 
2014-03-25 05:28:52 PM  

stonicus: Most consumers in the world of prostitution are male.  But, most people who work in the world of prostitution are female.  This demographic unbalance needs to be fixed!


On the case:
i238.photobucket.com
/hot
 
2014-03-25 05:29:55 PM  

butterybiscuits: Games can appeal to broader markets with more perspectives involved.


I know I mentioned this in another thread, but the reason the big publishers don't give you games with "more perspectives" are the same reason that the big publishers aren't giving me more games based on Doom and Warcraft.  They're only putting out the games that they think will sell.  It just happens that "companies won't make homage to classic, excellent games" is less inflammatory than "companies won't make games with gender diversity".

God Is My Co-Pirate: Sometimes a culture shift is needed.


The culture shift happened.  Anyone with the time and resources can now make a game.  You don't have to declare your allegiance to one of a dozen huge publishers in order to make games anymore.
 
2014-03-25 05:32:37 PM  

rustypouch: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I think it's just a demographic issue that will sort itself out in time. The original video games crew were men. The generation that grew up on those first consoles and computers were mostly boys. Now that games are everywhere and everyone is playing them, the base of people that play them and want to make them will expand. Demographic reasons already explain the recent semi-explosion of women already in the industry calling for more diversity. They simply didn't exist in the early years to make the argument. Now they do. I don't see it as something that needs to be pushed all that hard.

I find the situation of SJW types and video games in recent years a bit off putting.

Growing up, I was a nerdy misfit. I'm on Fark, so that's probably still true. Video games were an escape for me, a safe space if you will, where the only judgment was gaming ability. Nothing else mattered.

I didn't fit into the real world, so I found a space where I was welcome. I was ostracized for doing so, before gaming was cool.

Now the same type of people who judged me and made my life unpleasant want me to let them into my world, and change things to suit them.

Fark that.

If you want games that suit you, fine. Make your own, or buy ones that you like. Don't expect an entire industry to adapt to you, and in the process, alienate the people who made it possible.


Sorry, nerdlinger, you 'll just have to go be... "different"somewhere else.  We want to encourage diversity.
 
2014-03-25 05:33:20 PM  
TL;DR, learn to summarize.

I know that this isn't an innate woman thing, but the author just happens to share the trait of long-windeness with all the women I know. Seriously girls, learn to summarize. The reason I tune you out is because it takes you five goddamn minutes to make a point that ought to have been made in 30 seconds.

First paragraph: I am going to argue that our industry needs to actively become more inclusive of women, and does themselves and their customers a disservice when not doing so. In fact, there are five pervasive myths in our industry that conspire to keep women out of the workplace. These are used by executives to justify the biases they have, by hiring managers to explain away not hiring more women, and by the rank & file to ignore the problem in their workplace.

Then describe the five myths, and spend a paragraph or two on each.
 
2014-03-25 05:33:51 PM  

Voiceofreason01: I can see why people, particularly a rape survivor, might be offended.


i honestly can't. short of people who are offended by any use of the word itself outside of like clinical or legal environments, but that's trigger warning territory and nothing to do with offensiveness

Mike_LowELL: It just happens that "companies won't make homage to classic, excellent games"


you say that but i bet you don't own syndicate 2012
 
2014-03-25 05:41:09 PM  

Voiceofreason01: A lot of the complaints about the original comic were reasonable


I, for one, would like to see one of these "reasonable" complaints. As I recall, all the complaints were of the "ZOMG you said rape and that's NOT FUNNY EVER!"
 
2014-03-25 05:41:28 PM  

rustypouch: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I think it's just a demographic issue that will sort itself out in time. The original video games crew were men. The generation that grew up on those first consoles and computers were mostly boys. Now that games are everywhere and everyone is playing them, the base of people that play them and want to make them will expand. Demographic reasons already explain the recent semi-explosion of women already in the industry calling for more diversity. They simply didn't exist in the early years to make the argument. Now they do. I don't see it as something that needs to be pushed all that hard.

I find the situation of SJW types and video games in recent years a bit off putting.

Growing up, I was a nerdy misfit. I'm on Fark, so that's probably still true. Video games were an escape for me, a safe space if you will, where the only judgment was gaming ability. Nothing else mattered.

I didn't fit into the real world, so I found a space where I was welcome. I was ostracized for doing so, before gaming was cool.

Now the same type of people who judged me and made my life unpleasant want me to let them into my world, and change things to suit them.

Fark that.

If you want games that suit you, fine. Make your own, or buy ones that you like. Don't expect an entire industry to adapt to you, and in the process, alienate the people who made it possible.


"fark you, I got mine!"
 
2014-03-25 05:42:20 PM  

sendtodave: rustypouch: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I think it's just a demographic issue that will sort itself out in time. The original video games crew were men. The generation that grew up on those first consoles and computers were mostly boys. Now that games are everywhere and everyone is playing them, the base of people that play them and want to make them will expand. Demographic reasons already explain the recent semi-explosion of women already in the industry calling for more diversity. They simply didn't exist in the early years to make the argument. Now they do. I don't see it as something that needs to be pushed all that hard.

I find the situation of SJW types and video games in recent years a bit off putting.

Growing up, I was a nerdy misfit. I'm on Fark, so that's probably still true. Video games were an escape for me, a safe space if you will, where the only judgment was gaming ability. Nothing else mattered.

I didn't fit into the real world, so I found a space where I was welcome. I was ostracized for doing so, before gaming was cool.

Now the same type of people who judged me and made my life unpleasant want me to let them into my world, and change things to suit them.

Fark that.

If you want games that suit you, fine. Make your own, or buy ones that you like. Don't expect an entire industry to adapt to you, and in the process, alienate the people who made it possible.

Sorry, nerdlinger, you 'll just have to go be... "different"somewhere else.  We want to encourage diversity.


Why though? The games we outcast boys grew up playing are spoke to us as outcast boys, and some of them went on to create the games that still speak to us. It's not an argument to create a He-Man Woman Hater club of the industry, but there's still a market for that sort of adolescent escapism.

As girls grow up today playing games that speak to them, some will go on to make those sorts of gaming experiences that touched them. It's a self regulating system, so long as the men already in and around the industry aren't actively holding women back.
 
2014-03-25 05:42:45 PM  

sprawl15: i honestly can't.


Seek professional help. No, really: if you can't empathize with someone to the very limited degree required to understand that someone who has been raped might have a problem with someone making flippant jokes about a person being raped then there's something serious and fundamental wrong with you.
 
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