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(Neowin)   Hey, who wants to go look at some really old crappy code?   (neowin.net ) divider line
    More: Interesting, MS-DOS, Microsoft Research, Computer History Museum, source codes, touch screens  
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3630 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Mar 2014 at 3:53 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-25 02:37:18 PM  
I still get a stiffy for the old-style software packaging.

"OOOH, books in plastic binders!  This must be really good software!"
 
2014-03-25 02:41:54 PM  
In July 1981, Microsoft made a deal with Seattle Computer Products to buy the full rights to its QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000. The OS was renamed MS DOS and was installed on all IBM PCs soon afterward.

I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.
 
2014-03-25 02:54:59 PM  

Gig103: I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.


I'm curious now, how old are you?
 
2014-03-25 02:56:00 PM  

Gig103: In July 1981, Microsoft made a deal with Seattle Computer Products to buy the full rights to its QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000. The OS was renamed MS DOS and was installed on all IBM PCs soon afterward.

I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.


Nope, they bought it and made billions.  I'm betting that the creator shot himself when his product became so popular.

Think about it this way.  WfW1.1a doesn't have the damn ribbon!
 
2014-03-25 03:03:35 PM  

jwa007: Gig103: I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.

I'm curious now, how old are you?


33. DOS 6.2.2 was my first IBM-PC edition, which wasn't long before I had Win 3.1.
 
2014-03-25 03:54:49 PM  
Probably 15 years ago, newer DOS and Windows source code was floating around the net. I grabbed a copy, but I have no idea where it is these days.
 
2014-03-25 03:59:36 PM  
I always remember hearing that MS outright stole the code and made their own version of DOS.  I guess that's in there with Jobs stealing GUI and mice from Xerox.  Huh.  I wish I could remember the name of the company that originally made DOS (the one in the article is not what I remember).  Oh well.

\Not so CSB.
 
2014-03-25 04:03:22 PM  
In this age of touchscreen and voice command interfaces, it's sometimes hard to believe that less than 40 years ago, we just used keyboards to interact with our personal computers.

img1.wikia.nocookie.net

Keyboard.
How quaint.
 
2014-03-25 04:03:37 PM  

BizarreMan: Gig103: In July 1981, Microsoft made a deal with Seattle Computer Products to buy the full rights to its QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000. The OS was renamed MS DOS and was installed on all IBM PCs soon afterward.

I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.

Nope, they bought it and made billions.  I'm betting that the creator shot himself when his product became so popular.

Think about it this way.  WfW1.1a doesn't have the damn ribbon!


True, but Gates and Allen could code, unlike some other geniuses...
 
2014-03-25 04:03:39 PM  
I wonder if the original and revision comments are still there, might be a fun read.
 
2014-03-25 04:05:49 PM  

PainInTheASP: I still get a stiffy for the old-style software packaging.

"OOOH, books in plastic binders!  This must be really good software!"


"What's this?"

"Some sort of spreadsheet program."

"How does it work? Any documentation?"

*pulls out 3-inch tan binder*
 
2014-03-25 04:06:04 PM  

somemoron: I always remember hearing that MS outright stole the code and made their own version of DOS.  I guess that's in there with Jobs stealing GUI and mice from Xerox.  Huh.  I wish I could remember the name of the company that originally made DOS (the one in the article is not what I remember).  Oh well.

\Not so CSB.


Originally made which DOS?
 
2014-03-25 04:09:44 PM  

BizarreMan: Nope, they bought it and made billions. I'm betting that the creator shot himself when his product became so popular.


Since the guy had no connection to IBM, there is about a zero percent chance that his OS would have been used for the IBM PC. He still came out ahead.
 
2014-03-25 04:11:49 PM  
Apparently you can still find a public domain DOS out there that you can run on your computer.

Been updated for >640k RAM and everything.
 
2014-03-25 04:12:29 PM  

Gig103: In July 1981, Microsoft made a deal with Seattle Computer Products to buy the full rights to its QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000. The OS was renamed MS DOS and was installed on all IBM PCs soon afterward.

I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.


Story I heard was that IBM needed an operating system. Bill was called in for a meeting and contracted with IBM to provide it. Bill and crew left the meeting and didn't have anything to offer so they bought a company/rights to software to fit the need.

pretty ballsy if even somewhat true.
 
2014-03-25 04:13:47 PM  

Gig103: In July 1981, Microsoft made a deal with Seattle Computer Products to buy the full rights to its QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000. The OS was renamed MS DOS and was installed on all IBM PCs soon afterward.

I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.


Gates always has been a great marketer.  Dos, Word, and Excel are all products Microsoft purchased and repackaged as its own.
 
2014-03-25 04:16:35 PM  
I was a temp tester during MS-DOS 6.0. I worked on Doublespace....Man I am old.
 
2014-03-25 04:16:50 PM  

Rev. Skarekroe: In this age of touchscreen and voice command interfaces, it's sometimes hard to believe that less than 40 years ago, we just used keyboards to interact with our personal computers.

[img1.wikia.nocookie.net image 600x319]

Keyboard.
How quaint.


I always wondered how Scotty was a speed typist when they never had anything wtih a keyboard on the Enterprise.
 
2014-03-25 04:19:18 PM  

BizarreMan: Gig103: In July 1981, Microsoft made a deal with Seattle Computer Products to buy the full rights to its QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000. The OS was renamed MS DOS and was installed on all IBM PCs soon afterward.

I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.

Nope, they bought it and made billions.  I'm betting that the creator shot himself when his product became so popular.

Think about it this way.  WfW1.1a doesn't have the damn ribbon!


Not so fast there..."ribbon" name is scattered in the source code...ie, from line 88 of "cmdcore.c" in that source:
...
/* Repeat Ruler/Ribbon formatting. */
...

/The ribbon concept was spawned before you think...
 
2014-03-25 04:19:28 PM  

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Apparently you can still find a public domain DOS out there that you can run on your computer.

Been updated for >640k RAM and everything.


FreeDOS is what you're thinking of. If you just want to play old DOS games or whatever, get DOSBox to run it in a window.
 
2014-03-25 04:21:48 PM  
If you watch the motion picture one he has a very keyboardish console right next to the warp core.  Not that it was a QWERTY keyboard or anything.  That doesn't mean he would have been able to use the computer or the CAD software from 1985.  Spock maybe could have done it but Scotty wouldn't have been able to.
 
2014-03-25 04:24:31 PM  
[right-click] "View page source"
 
2014-03-25 04:26:08 PM  

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Apparently you can still find a public domain DOS out there that you can run on your computer.

Been updated for >640k RAM and everything.


DR DOS and FreeDOS are out there. The latest version of the latter was released in 2012.
 
2014-03-25 04:27:42 PM  

Jekylman: [right-click] "View page source"


see it's funny cause ... oh.

<copyright 2014 drew>
 
2014-03-25 04:31:44 PM  

K3rmy: Rev. Skarekroe: In this age of touchscreen and voice command interfaces, it's sometimes hard to believe that less than 40 years ago, we just used keyboards to interact with our personal computers.

[img1.wikia.nocookie.net image 600x319]

Keyboard.
How quaint.

I always wondered how Scotty was a speed typist when they never had anything wtih a keyboard on the Enterprise.


Scotty's a geek. As such, he had geeky pursuits. He may not have used a keyboard in his daily work, but he's the type of guy who would have had a functional Model M in his quarters, for the historical context.

And because it wouldn't crap out if he spilled hooch on it.
 
2014-03-25 04:38:21 PM  

dukeblue219: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Apparently you can still find a public domain DOS out there that you can run on your computer.

Been updated for >640k RAM and everything.

FreeDOS is what you're thinking of. If you just want to play old DOS games or whatever, get DOSBox to run it in a window.


Up until a few years ago I was running my MAME cabinet in MS-DOS 6.22 because it performed better than in Windows.  Of course all I used it for was classic 80's and 90's vertical shooters though.  After a certain MAME revision the performance in DOS dropped off considerably and I had to move to Windows.  It works great, but man I miss those fast boot times.
 
2014-03-25 04:39:22 PM  
BizarreMan:

Gig103: I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.

Nope, they bought it and made billions.  I'm betting that the creator shot himself when his product became so popular.


Actually, the creator (Tim Paterson) later went to work for Microsoft for a while.  I've never heard of him being publicly bitter; the bitter one was Gary Kildall, who invented the CP/M OS that inspired Paterson.  The company Paterson worked for, SCP, later settled out of court with Microsoft for a relatively small amount.
 
2014-03-25 04:40:23 PM  
*yawns*
I've had that at my house for decades.
get off my LAN.
 
2014-03-25 04:50:09 PM  
I have a proverbial sh*tload of bad code I can release. And, anyone cares why?
 
2014-03-25 04:52:05 PM  
I don't see the source for solitaire anywhere!

/disappoint
 
2014-03-25 04:53:34 PM  

somemoron: I always remember hearing that MS outright stole the code and made their own version of DOS.  I guess that's in there with Jobs stealing GUI and mice from Xerox.  Huh.  I wish I could remember the name of the company that originally made DOS (the one in the article is not what I remember).  Oh well.



Apple didn't steal the GUI and mouse from Xerox. Xerox let them into PARC in '79 and they received private shares from Apple for the visit.

Besides the mouse wasn't invented by Xerox, it was invented a number of times - '46, '52, '63 and '68. Oh and Microsoft had support for it before Apple did.

The GUI also predates PARC. There was a GUI at the USAF Sage installation computers, at the
Augmentation Research Center in the 60s, etc.
 
2014-03-25 05:08:16 PM  
I'd imagine DOS' code to be pretty tidy, actually.

/still use it
/still use floppies, too
 
2014-03-25 05:14:40 PM  

clovis69: somemoron: I always remember hearing that MS outright stole the code and made their own version of DOS.  I guess that's in there with Jobs stealing GUI and mice from Xerox.  Huh.  I wish I could remember the name of the company that originally made DOS (the one in the article is not what I remember).  Oh well.


Apple didn't steal the GUI and mouse from Xerox. Xerox let them into PARC in '79 and they received private shares from Apple for the visit.

Besides the mouse wasn't invented by Xerox, it was invented a number of times - '46, '52, '63 and '68. Oh and Microsoft had support for it before Apple did.

The GUI also predates PARC. There was a GUI at the USAF Sage installation computers, at the
Augmentation Research Center in the 60s, etc.


this
 
2014-03-25 05:19:26 PM  

DrSansabeltNoShiatSlacks: I have a proverbial sh*tload of bad code I can release. And, anyone cares why?


Your code wasn't the basis of an entire section of the IT industry
 
2014-03-25 05:21:14 PM  

Gig103: In July 1981, Microsoft made a deal with Seattle Computer Products to buy the full rights to its QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000. The OS was renamed MS DOS and was installed on all IBM PCs soon afterward.

I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.


Not only. I'll bet Microsoft scrambled to remove the encoded G-A-R-Y K-I-L-D-A-L-L in MS-DOS from the QDOS code that Seattle Computer Products created by disassembling and recompiling CP/M.  Or maybe not.

Gary Kildall said that he was the only human on the planet that knew why those particular jump addresses in MS-DOS were there.
 
2014-03-25 05:25:09 PM  
I released a stack of FORTRAN coded cards the last day of school...doesn't count?
 
2014-03-25 05:27:32 PM  

Ambitwistor: the bitter one was Gary Kildall, who invented the CP/M OS that inspired Paterson


Microsoft was distributing CP/M under license with their Basic Editor, the product IBM, so the sent IBM to see Kildall, he blew off the meeting, and then they went out and bought the QDOS CP/M knock off. Kildall was bitter but he could have had the business if he wasn't an idiot.
 
2014-03-25 05:29:19 PM  

UsikFark: somemoron: I always remember hearing that MS outright stole the code and made their own version of DOS.  I guess that's in there with Jobs stealing GUI and mice from Xerox.  Huh.  I wish I could remember the name of the company that originally made DOS (the one in the article is not what I remember).  Oh well.

\Not so CSB.

Originally made which DOS?


Are you thinking Digital Research and CP/M?  That wasn't for intel chips.
 
2014-03-25 05:41:31 PM  

netringer: Gig103: In July 1981, Microsoft made a deal with Seattle Computer Products to buy the full rights to its QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000. The OS was renamed MS DOS and was installed on all IBM PCs soon afterward.

I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.

Not only. I'll bet Microsoft scrambled to remove the encoded G-A-R-Y K-I-L-D-A-L-L in MS-DOS from the QDOS code that Seattle Computer Products created by disassembling and recompiling CP/M.  Or maybe not.

Gary Kildall said that he was the only human on the planet that knew why those particular jump addresses in MS-DOS were there.


Quick history lesson on how you could legally steal software in the early days of computing. Software was only protected by copyrights and those copyrights only applied to the specific source code, so all you had to do was circumvent the copyrights. It was a 2 person operation.

Person 1 Went through the software and source code if available, and wrote down the specifications step by step, including command strings, and full functionality.

Person 2 Wrote the code from those specs having never seen the source code of the original copy.

Because of the differences of programming styles, and the order in which the code was written, the new software did not infringe on the other software's copyright.
 
2014-03-25 05:49:43 PM  
Look at old, crappy code? Subby just described half my job

/"so do we understand all possible end states??" Are... are you *high*? Have you *looked* at this thing lately - what little we have access to??
 
2014-03-25 05:53:20 PM  

Felix_T_Cat: UsikFark: somemoron: I always remember hearing that MS outright stole the code and made their own version of DOS.  I guess that's in there with Jobs stealing GUI and mice from Xerox.  Huh.  I wish I could remember the name of the company that originally made DOS (the one in the article is not what I remember).  Oh well.

\Not so CSB.

Originally made which DOS?

Are you thinking Digital Research and CP/M?  That wasn't for intel chips.


LOLWUT? The original CP/M ran on an 8080, an Intel chip.
 
2014-03-25 05:53:30 PM  

stratagos: Look at old, crappy code? Subby just described half my job

/"so do we understand all possible end states??" Are... are you *high*? Have you *looked* at this thing lately - what little we have access to??


I think I described every programmer's job
 
2014-03-25 05:55:21 PM  

neilbradley: Felix_T_Cat: UsikFark: somemoron: I always remember hearing that MS outright stole the code and made their own version of DOS.  I guess that's in there with Jobs stealing GUI and mice from Xerox.  Huh.  I wish I could remember the name of the company that originally made DOS (the one in the article is not what I remember).  Oh well.

\Not so CSB.

Originally made which DOS?

Are you thinking Digital Research and CP/M?  That wasn't for intel chips.

LOLWUT? The original CP/M ran on an 8080, an Intel chip.


And the full name of the company was Intergalactic Digital Research
 
2014-03-25 06:03:02 PM  

netringer: Gig103: In July 1981, Microsoft made a deal with Seattle Computer Products to buy the full rights to its QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000. The OS was renamed MS DOS and was installed on all IBM PCs soon afterward.

I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.

Not only. I'll bet Microsoft scrambled to remove the encoded G-A-R-Y K-I-L-D-A-L-L in MS-DOS from the QDOS code that Seattle Computer Products created by disassembling and recompiling CP/M.  Or maybe not.

Gary Kildall said that he was the only human on the planet that knew why those particular jump addresses in MS-DOS were there.


THAT'S what I was remembering, Gary Kildall.  Thanks.
 
2014-03-25 06:13:47 PM  

Tom_Slick: netringer: Gig103: In July 1981, Microsoft made a deal with Seattle Computer Products to buy the full rights to its QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000. The OS was renamed MS DOS and was installed on all IBM PCs soon afterward.

I never knew that, I figured Allen & Gates wrote MS-DOS.

Not only. I'll bet Microsoft scrambled to remove the encoded G-A-R-Y K-I-L-D-A-L-L in MS-DOS from the QDOS code that Seattle Computer Products created by disassembling and recompiling CP/M.  Or maybe not.

Gary Kildall said that he was the only human on the planet that knew why those particular jump addresses in MS-DOS were there.

Quick history lesson on how you could legally steal software in the early days of computing. Software was only protected by copyrights and those copyrights only applied to the specific source code, so all you had to do was circumvent the copyrights. It was a 2 person operation.

Person 1 Went through the software and source code if available, and wrote down the specifications step by step, including command strings, and full functionality.

Person 2 Wrote the code from those specs having never seen the source code of the original copy.

Because of the differences of programming styles, and the order in which the code was written, the new software did not infringe on the other software's copyright.


It's called the "Chinese Wall". It's how Compaq was able to create a IBM compatible clone. (As the BIOS was the only thing in the IBM PC protected by copyright)

1. Have an engineer sit at an IBM PC and write an entire specification for the BIOS
2. Hire "virgins" i.e. engineers who have never used an IBM PC
3. Have the "virgins" write the BIOS, using the specifications from the 1st engineer
4. Sell fully compatible PC, make millions
5. Have IBM cry as they lose control of the PC market
 
2014-03-25 06:22:03 PM  

neilbradley: Felix_T_Cat: UsikFark: somemoron: I always remember hearing that MS outright stole the code and made their own version of DOS.  I guess that's in there with Jobs stealing GUI and mice from Xerox.  Huh.  I wish I could remember the name of the company that originally made DOS (the one in the article is not what I remember).  Oh well.

\Not so CSB.

Originally made which DOS?

Are you thinking Digital Research and CP/M?  That wasn't for intel chips.

LOLWUT? The original CP/M ran on an 8080, an Intel chip.


Huh, I only ever saw it on a Z80, though I knew about CP/M-86.  I'll have to go back and look at my 8 inch single sided hard sector floppies.
 
2014-03-25 06:34:29 PM  

Felix_T_Cat: neilbradley: Felix_T_Cat: UsikFark: somemoron: I always remember hearing that MS outright stole the code and made their own version of DOS.  I guess that's in there with Jobs stealing GUI and mice from Xerox.  Huh.  I wish I could remember the name of the company that originally made DOS (the one in the article is not what I remember).  Oh well.

\Not so CSB.

Originally made which DOS?

Are you thinking Digital Research and CP/M?  That wasn't for intel chips.

LOLWUT? The original CP/M ran on an 8080, an Intel chip.

Huh, I only ever saw it on a Z80, though I knew about CP/M-86.  I'll have to go back and look at my 8 inch single sided hard sector floppies.


upload.wikimedia.org according to this, the Z80 had all the instructions of an 8080,
wouldnt that imply a Z80 with the right bios could run CPM ??
 
2014-03-25 06:46:55 PM  
Felix_T_Cat:Huh, I only ever saw it on a Z80, though I knew about CP/M-86.  I'll have to go back and look at my 8 inch single sided hard sector floppies.

It could run on an 8080. And it could do good, solid business work.

Trust me.
 
2014-03-25 06:49:32 PM  

clovis69: The GUI also predates PARC. There was a GUI at the USAF Sage installation computers, at the
Augmentation Research Center in the 60s, etc.


That's being pretty lose with the terms.

Link
This now brings us to Xerox PARC, where a team that included some SRI alumni drew upon these previous efforts and codified the windows, icons, menus and pointing devices (WIMP) system that became the foundation for the GUIs we are familiar with today.

I would say PARC invented the modern GUI.
 
2014-03-25 06:54:53 PM  

CP/M_Yes: Felix_T_Cat:Huh, I only ever saw it on a Z80, though I knew about CP/M-86.  I'll have to go back and look at my 8 inch single sided hard sector floppies.

It could run on an 8080. And it could do good, solid business work.

Trust me.


I trust you, I used to write Cobol and Forth programs on machines running CP/M.  Years later at an interview, "What do you know about Cobol?"  "17 years ago, I spent 19 hours looking for 3 misplaced periods."  "Ok, you've got the job."  That was all they asked me.
 
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