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(CBS News)   Good: Obama wants the NSA to stop keeping records on Americans' calls. Bad: wants telecoms to keep them instead   (cbsnews.com) divider line 82
    More: Stupid, NSA, independent review  
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221 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Mar 2014 at 7:34 AM (17 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-25 07:40:14 AM
The telecoms *already* have them
 
2014-03-25 07:44:11 AM
Good: Obama wants the NSA to stop keeping records on Americans' calls.  The norm: Telecoms will run as they always have, keeping records up to 18 months.
 
2014-03-25 07:48:33 AM
This certainly doesn't address all of the overreach by the NSA but it is a strong first step and I give Obama credit for caving on this.

Now he can drop the charges against Snowden since he is vindicating the guy with this.
 
2014-03-25 07:57:16 AM
They always have and always will
 
2014-03-25 08:02:17 AM
Ultimately this takes away the NSA's ability to monitor "metadata" without creating a paper trail that can be subject to subpoena. So it's a step in the right direction.
 
2014-03-25 08:03:12 AM
Such duplication of effort - my phone already keeps track of who I've called.
 
2014-03-25 08:06:28 AM

stratagos: The telecoms *already* have them


True but with this proposal the US tax payers get to pay the telecoms for what they were already doing.
 
2014-03-25 08:06:58 AM

stratagos: The telecoms *already* have them


Exactly. I don't see how people are surprised that when they use massively complex infrastructure built by governments and corporations, their info is seen and kept by those governments and corporations. I'm not saying it's good, just that it's obvious and possibly inevitable at least to some degree. Even if you use a VPN, why are you supposed to trust the foreign company at the other end?
 
2014-03-25 08:09:12 AM

toomuchwhargarbl: Ultimately this takes away the NSA's ability to monitor "metadata" without creating a paper trail that can be subject to subpoena. So it's a step in the right direction.


Exactly.
 
2014-03-25 08:16:10 AM
So...they know who I'm sending those pictures to?
 
2014-03-25 08:16:56 AM
Hah trollmitter got a lot of people with this one..


But for you alex jones nut jobs, unlimited access forever and requiring a court order with an 18month timeline are different..they jut are, you can't explain that.
 
2014-03-25 08:20:29 AM

LeoffDaGrate: The norm: Telecoms will run as they always have, keeping records up to 18 months.


FTA:
The government would be able to see some records with court approval.

Is that also the norm?
 
2014-03-25 08:21:37 AM
Oops, just noticed it says with court approval. Disregard the previous comment.
 
2014-03-25 08:25:17 AM
God bless Edward Snowden and his heroic actions! Without him telling us about this program we would have never slightly changed the chain of custody for information and all it cost was the operational blueprints for our spy programs on Russia! That's okay, because it's not like that country is invading neighboring nations like the Nazis did in the 30's.
 
2014-03-25 08:27:19 AM

stratagos: The telecoms *already* have them


this.  are we pretending they don't still?
 
2014-03-25 08:30:02 AM

Muta: stratagos: The telecoms *already* have them

True but with this proposal the US tax payers get to pay the telecoms for what they were already doing.


That is *not* what the article says. It states that the telecoms *biatched* about the cost (of what they already do), presumably in an attempt to shake the money tree, but it also says they didn't get any traction with that
 
2014-03-25 08:31:41 AM

WTF Indeed: God bless Edward Snowden and his heroic actions! Without him telling us about this program we would have never slightly changed the chain of custody for information and all it cost was the operational blueprints for our spy programs on Russia! That's okay, because it's not like that country is invading neighboring nations like the Nazis did in the 30's.


Yes, because this is the *only* thing Snowden revealed that impacts American citizens
 
2014-03-25 08:39:21 AM

stratagos: The telecoms *already* have them


Wouldn't this law essentially obligate the telecoms to keep these records for as long as the government specifies and not how long the telecoms feel it's appropriate? Can you say "unfunded mandate" boys and girls?

Should this pass I'll quit my biatching if they at least take some effort to scrutinize warrants instead of rubber stamping them, and somehow work in more public oversight. Trust needs to be re-established with the public.
 
2014-03-25 08:45:06 AM
It's a good start but the amount of heel-dragging that it took to get here is appalling, never-mind that even this hasn't actually been done yet.
 
2014-03-25 08:47:45 AM

WTF Indeed: God bless Edward Snowden and his heroic actions! Without him telling us about this program we would have never slightly changed the chain of custody for information and all it cost was the operational blueprints for our spy programs on Russia! That's okay, because it's not like that country is invading neighboring nations like the Nazis did in the 30's.


Yeah guys, Snowden is basically Hitler.
 
2014-03-25 08:47:53 AM

stratagos: Yes, because this is the *only* thing Snowden revealed that impacts American citizens


Having the knowledge that the NSA has on several occasions accessed the metadata of American citizens without getting a court order is totally worth giving what is essential Enigma Machine-level details to a nation that is currently baiting the Western world into a military action.  In the real world, knowledge is power.
 
2014-03-25 08:50:05 AM

ampoliros: It's a good start but the amount of heel-dragging that it took to get here is appalling, never-mind that even this hasn't actually been done yet.


It's going to be great once Sen. Dianne "Monitor all the things" Feinstein gets her hands on it.
 
2014-03-25 08:50:32 AM

wesmon: Now he can drop the charges against Snowden since he is vindicating the guy with this.


No. He gave up the whole bit, not just what's been published. Whether the rest gets published depends on the continuing balance of Greenwald's journalistic integrity vs. Greenwald's rumbling belly.
 
2014-03-25 08:53:07 AM
Hey guys like it or not what Obama says, goes. That man has done so much for this country. He could order me and my family to abandon our homes and possessions and go down to the FEMA camps and I would gladly obey him. I'm real tired of all these racists criticizing him.
 
2014-03-25 08:57:20 AM

WTF Indeed: Enigma Machine-level details


yeah now all the terrorists will decode my phone because of those powerpoint slides

hopefully they don't have the tech savvy to make a gui interface using visual basic
 
2014-03-25 08:59:22 AM
I've always wondered why they spend money and time looking at peoples cat videos.  Aside from that fact that they should not do it; the bigger question is why do they do it at all?
 
2014-03-25 09:00:38 AM

incendi: wesmon: Now he can drop the charges against Snowden since he is vindicating the guy with this.

No. He gave up the whole bit, not just what's been published. Whether the rest gets published depends on the continuing balance of Greenwald's journalistic integrity vs. Greenwald's rumbling belly.


He's got to be running out of steam. Last thing was "we spied on a Chinese tech company". Well no shiat.
 
2014-03-25 09:01:46 AM

sprawl15: yeah now all the terrorists will decode my phone because of those powerpoint slides

hopefully they don't have the tech savvy to make a gui interface using visual basic


Awww, it's cute that you think Russia and China have same operational budgets as terror groups.
 
2014-03-25 09:06:12 AM

WTF Indeed: sprawl15: yeah now all the terrorists will decode my phone because of those powerpoint slides

hopefully they don't have the tech savvy to make a gui interface using visual basic

Awww, it's cute that you think Russia and China have same operational budgets as terror groups.


i am not mocking you, i am agreeing that vague, high level powerpoint slides being made public after redactions are as great a danger to our national security as cracking the primary operational code device during wartime secretly being cracked by enemy intelligence

i mean it's literally the same thing, if people aren't pissing their pants they aren't concerned enough
 
2014-03-25 09:06:52 AM

bigsteve3OOO: I've always wondered why they spend money and time looking at peoples cat videos.  Aside from that fact that they should not do it; the bigger question is why do they do it at all?


Because some of those cat videos are hi-lar-ious! If the CIA and other secretive government firms would fill their servers with cat videos, they'd be impenetrable because once they've broken in, the cyberterrorists would start watching cat videos instead of getting secret information. Of course, the agency wouldn't get any work done either because their employees would be constantly distracted, but some of us call that a win-win.
 
2014-03-25 09:07:56 AM
Doesn't matter much to me how it's kept, it's how its used.
When government and business are conspiring to do things like espionage or voter manipulation, I'm not sure it matters who keeps it since the result will be the same shenanigans.
 
2014-03-25 09:09:12 AM

LasersHurt: incendi: wesmon: Now he can drop the charges against Snowden since he is vindicating the guy with this.

No. He gave up the whole bit, not just what's been published. Whether the rest gets published depends on the continuing balance of Greenwald's journalistic integrity vs. Greenwald's rumbling belly.

He's got to be running out of steam. Last thing was "we spied on a Chinese tech company". Well no shiat.


We weren't just spying.

And this can literally go on for years.
 
2014-03-25 09:11:26 AM

sprawl15: WTF Indeed: sprawl15: yeah now all the terrorists will decode my phone because of those powerpoint slides

hopefully they don't have the tech savvy to make a gui interface using visual basic

Awww, it's cute that you think Russia and China have same operational budgets as terror groups.

i am not mocking you, i am agreeing that vague, high level powerpoint slides being made public after redactions are as great a danger to our national security as cracking the primary operational code device during wartime secretly being cracked by enemy intelligence

i mean it's literally the same thing, if people aren't pissing their pants they aren't concerned enough


also cracking
 
2014-03-25 09:18:15 AM

HotWingConspiracy: LasersHurt: incendi: wesmon: Now he can drop the charges against Snowden since he is vindicating the guy with this.

No. He gave up the whole bit, not just what's been published. Whether the rest gets published depends on the continuing balance of Greenwald's journalistic integrity vs. Greenwald's rumbling belly.

He's got to be running out of steam. Last thing was "we spied on a Chinese tech company". Well no shiat.

We weren't just spying.

And this can literally go on for years.


I have my doubts. The information is only going to be accurate or valid for a few years before methods or actions have changed. There's a shelf life on that info.
 
2014-03-25 09:21:48 AM

LasersHurt: HotWingConspiracy: LasersHurt: incendi: wesmon: Now he can drop the charges against Snowden since he is vindicating the guy with this.

No. He gave up the whole bit, not just what's been published. Whether the rest gets published depends on the continuing balance of Greenwald's journalistic integrity vs. Greenwald's rumbling belly.

He's got to be running out of steam. Last thing was "we spied on a Chinese tech company". Well no shiat.

We weren't just spying.

And this can literally go on for years.

I have my doubts. The information is only going to be accurate or valid for a few years before methods or actions have changed. There's a shelf life on that info.


The methods won't matter, it's the impact of the revelations.
 
2014-03-25 09:32:13 AM

HotWingConspiracy: LasersHurt: HotWingConspiracy: LasersHurt: incendi: wesmon: Now he can drop the charges against Snowden since he is vindicating the guy with this.

No. He gave up the whole bit, not just what's been published. Whether the rest gets published depends on the continuing balance of Greenwald's journalistic integrity vs. Greenwald's rumbling belly.

He's got to be running out of steam. Last thing was "we spied on a Chinese tech company". Well no shiat.

We weren't just spying.

And this can literally go on for years.

I have my doubts. The information is only going to be accurate or valid for a few years before methods or actions have changed. There's a shelf life on that info.

The methods won't matter, it's the impact of the revelations.


I said nothing of the methods, I spoke of the actual information released. Which will have no impact if it's no longer accurate or valid.
 
2014-03-25 09:38:49 AM

LasersHurt: HotWingConspiracy: LasersHurt: HotWingConspiracy: LasersHurt: incendi: wesmon: Now he can drop the charges against Snowden since he is vindicating the guy with this.

No. He gave up the whole bit, not just what's been published. Whether the rest gets published depends on the continuing balance of Greenwald's journalistic integrity vs. Greenwald's rumbling belly.

He's got to be running out of steam. Last thing was "we spied on a Chinese tech company". Well no shiat.

We weren't just spying.

And this can literally go on for years.

I have my doubts. The information is only going to be accurate or valid for a few years before methods or actions have changed. There's a shelf life on that info.

The methods won't matter, it's the impact of the revelations.

I said nothing of the methods, I spoke of the actual information released. Which will have no impact if it's no longer accurate or valid.


Uh ok.
 
2014-03-25 09:42:42 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Uh ok.


The NSA's methods. You know, like no longer doing the things that are being "revealed." I assumed you meant the methods of release.

If you're arguing that it doesn't matter if they still do the things they're being revealed to have done in the past, that seems ridiculous. I'm curious as to why you think it would matter.
 
2014-03-25 09:44:34 AM

LasersHurt: I'm curious as to why you think it would matter.


HotWingConspiracy: The methods won't matter


am i taking crazy pills or what
 
2014-03-25 09:45:41 AM

LasersHurt: HotWingConspiracy: Uh ok.

The NSA's methods. You know, like no longer doing the things that are being "revealed." I assumed you meant the methods of release.

If you're arguing that it doesn't matter if they still do the things they're being revealed to have done in the past, that seems ridiculous. I'm curious as to why you think it would matter.


I'm saying it doesn't matter if they've changed their methods, they're still on the hook for what they've done. They've given up trying to deny any of it. It's not inconsequential.
 
2014-03-25 09:49:12 AM

wesmon: This certainly doesn't address all of the overreach by the NSA but it is a strong first step and I give Obama credit for caving on this.

Now he can drop the charges against Snowden since he is vindicating the guy with this.


There is one issue it might help resolve.  Wiretapping to spot illegal activity is one thing but retention of records by a Government organization would allow you to identify the person first, and then go back decades looking for dirt.

Speak out against the Government and they can go back through your entire history looking for dirt.  That, at least, should be taken off the table but that is just a start.

No one in the Governemnt should be able to wiretape or collect meta-data without a specific and limited court ordered warrant.  In fairness, Obama did not campaign on this issue but I hope it becomes a campaign issue which is debated going forward.
 
2014-03-25 09:55:52 AM

HotWingConspiracy: LasersHurt: HotWingConspiracy: Uh ok.

The NSA's methods. You know, like no longer doing the things that are being "revealed." I assumed you meant the methods of release.

If you're arguing that it doesn't matter if they still do the things they're being revealed to have done in the past, that seems ridiculous. I'm curious as to why you think it would matter.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if they've changed their methods, they're still on the hook for what they've done. They've given up trying to deny any of it. It's not inconsequential.


So... it's okay to string out release of information, even long after it is invalid, so they can be "on the hook." Even if they have already changed BECAUSE they got called out, or if there is no possible way anyone will actually be held accountable. But keep doing it. Via Greenwald. Forever.

I just don't get it, honestly. Why not release it in a timely manner, if it's important? Why drag it out for years? I got the initial justification of "not all at once" so it doesn't slip out of the public eye, but YEARS is ridiculous.
 
2014-03-25 09:57:25 AM

sprawl15: LasersHurt: I'm curious as to why you think it would matter.

HotWingConspiracy: The methods won't matter

am i taking crazy pills or what


Nobody wants to keep doing something for years if it doesn't matter. It matters to him, and I am trying to figure out why.

We're also talking about the "methods" used by the NSA, and the "methods" of releasing info, and whether either matters, so it's confusing.
 
2014-03-25 09:57:51 AM

LasersHurt: I just don't get it, honestly. Why not release it in a timely manner, if it's important? Why drag it out for years? I got the initial justification of "not all at once" so it doesn't slip out of the public eye, but YEARS is ridiculous.


either a) he understands the panoptic far better than you or b) he understands that his visa is only good as long as he still has rocks to throw
 
2014-03-25 09:58:09 AM

LasersHurt: HotWingConspiracy: LasersHurt: HotWingConspiracy: Uh ok.

The NSA's methods. You know, like no longer doing the things that are being "revealed." I assumed you meant the methods of release.

If you're arguing that it doesn't matter if they still do the things they're being revealed to have done in the past, that seems ridiculous. I'm curious as to why you think it would matter.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if they've changed their methods, they're still on the hook for what they've done. They've given up trying to deny any of it. It's not inconsequential.

So... it's okay to string out release of information, even long after it is invalid, so they can be "on the hook." Even if they have already changed BECAUSE they got called out, or if there is no possible way anyone will actually be held accountable. But keep doing it. Via Greenwald. Forever.


Yes, that is the plan. And they're only changing the practices that have been exposed, so more to come.

I just don't get it, honestly. Why not release it in a timely manner, if it's important? Why drag it out for years? I got the initial justification of "not all at once" so it doesn't slip out of the public eye, but YEARS is ridiculous.

A mere blip on the historical arc of this thing.
 
2014-03-25 10:00:29 AM

LasersHurt: We're also talking about the "methods" used by the NSA, and the "methods" of releasing info, and whether either matters, so it's confusing.


no the latter was made up by you since you were the first person that brought it up and everyone else went ?k pasta?
 
2014-03-25 10:00:31 AM

HotWingConspiracy: And they're only changing the practices that have been exposed, so more to come.


So why not - and follow me here - Why not release the information in a timely fashion so they are forced to change ALL of the negative practices now, rather than keeping SOME going for many more years?

sprawl15: LasersHurt: I just don't get it, honestly. Why not release it in a timely manner, if it's important? Why drag it out for years? I got the initial justification of "not all at once" so it doesn't slip out of the public eye, but YEARS is ridiculous.

either a) he understands the panoptic far better than you or b) he understands that his visa is only good as long as he still has rocks to throw


Thank god you have such detailed explanations of "he gets it better." That's helpful. You added to the conversation.
 
2014-03-25 10:02:41 AM

sprawl15: LasersHurt: We're also talking about the "methods" used by the NSA, and the "methods" of releasing info, and whether either matters, so it's confusing.

no the latter was made up by you since you were the first person that brought it up and everyone else went ?k pasta?


No, it's a question I asked. I'm trying to figure out why he thinks it should go on for years, allowing some things to continue knowingly. I know it sounds like I "made it up," because I was the one who asked the question, introducing the idea.
 
2014-03-25 10:04:22 AM

LasersHurt: HotWingConspiracy: And they're only changing the practices that have been exposed, so more to come.

So why not - and follow me here - Why not release the information in a timely fashion so they are forced to change ALL of the negative practices now, rather than keeping SOME going for many more years?


Because the situation is bigger than that and there are many variables and concerns at play. You know they're voluntarily redacting and holding back certain documents, right? Review takes time.
 
2014-03-25 10:05:28 AM

HotWingConspiracy: LasersHurt: HotWingConspiracy: And they're only changing the practices that have been exposed, so more to come.

So why not - and follow me here - Why not release the information in a timely fashion so they are forced to change ALL of the negative practices now, rather than keeping SOME going for many more years?

Because the situation is bigger than that and there are many variables and concerns at play. You know they're voluntarily redacting and holding back certain documents, right? Review takes time.


That just sounds like "take our word for it." Which I am disinclined to do. But okay.
 
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