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(Wisconsin Gazette)   Hobby Lobby wants to provide employees decent wages, nice hours, a retirement plan but no access to IUDs or morning after pills   (wisconsingazette.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Hobby Lobby, IUD, emergency contraception, National Women's Law Center, minimum wages, Mennonite, Catholic University, wages  
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2227 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Mar 2014 at 9:31 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-25 09:33:14 AM  
I'd like to point out that universal healthcare would completely solve an issue like this, as it would take the burden of healthcare away from businesses.
 
2014-03-25 09:33:56 AM  
What if your hobby is sex? Do they offer continuous pregnancy leave? I smell glue.
 
2014-03-25 09:34:08 AM  
If you make sure people have contraception then usually people can afford their own healthcare, retirement and so forth because they don`t have to pay for the unwanted kids...
 
2014-03-25 09:34:10 AM  
Well, you'd think that if you make a decent wage then you could buy your own cooter pills
 
2014-03-25 09:35:06 AM  
And this is the first Subby has heard of this?  There's been at least one green on it a month, if not more, for over a year.

There was just one yesterday about SCOTUS hearing it today.
 
2014-03-25 09:35:37 AM  
You can sugar-coat a turd, but it'll still taste like shiat.
 
2014-03-25 09:36:37 AM  
What a bunch of hypocritical assholes...

They want to go full Jeebus on their employees, under the guise of protecting the sanctity of life, etc.. all the while making obscene amounts of profit on crap made in China, which, they seem to forget, up until recently had forced abortions for female babies, and still has one of the poorest human rights records of all the industrialized nations.

The whole family of owners can go dine on a fine chalice of phalluses.
 
2014-03-25 09:36:41 AM  

netcentric: Well, you'd think that if you make a decent wage then you could buy your own cooter pills


Decent wages are also against their religion.

Also retirement benefits.

And paid leave.

And 15 minute breaks.


STOP PERSECUTING THEM.

/oh the trials and tribulations of christians.
//they put "injured" soccer players to shame.
 
2014-03-25 09:37:10 AM  
In what way does refusing to pay for something for a third party limit that third party's access to that thing? Those third parties can go to any pharmacy and pay for their own (insert item here) can't they?

Because Hobby Lobby doesn't pay for home cable TV service, does that limit their employees access to HBO?


Discuss...

ac·cess       [ak-ses] noun1.

1.
the ability, right, or permission to approach, enter, speak with, or  u se; admittance:They have access to the files.
2. the state or quality of being approachable:The house was difficult  of access.
3. a way or means of approach:The only access to the house was a roug h dirt road.
4. Theology. approach to God through Jesus Christ.
5. an attack or onset, as of a disease.
 
2014-03-25 09:37:28 AM  

Twigz221: I'd like to point out that universal healthcare would completely solve an issue like this, as it would take the burden of healthcare away from businesses.


If we had universal healthcare, then the kooks would just shift their whining to how they are being oppressed by having to pay taxes to fund the same things. Fundamentalist Christians won't be satisfied with any system that doesn't give them the power to control other people's lives. They tried to use this very tactic to kill even the pro-corporate watered-down healthcare reform that we got. Because Jesus was against taking care of the sick, right?
 
2014-03-25 09:38:44 AM  
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't their insurance plan providing these services previously to Obamacare being passed?  I sadly haven't been able to verify this, but it sounds like this is more of a hissy fit due to Oblahma.

Corporations are not "people," and they do not have a religion. That should be the end of the story, but there's no way to tell how this court is going to rule.
 
2014-03-25 09:39:03 AM  
"Christians" again.
sigh.
 
2014-03-25 09:39:06 AM  

netcentric: Well, you'd think that if you make a decent wage then you could buy your own cooter pills


condoms are pretty damn cheap too.
 
2014-03-25 09:41:06 AM  
Obviously there are cases where it is medically necessary for a woman to be on birth control and it should be covered (and i imagine if this was the case most doctors would prescribe it that way with a wink), but I have an issue of saying, "well, its a pill, and you have to get a prescription for it, so it should be covered"

You can make the argument that it makes sense for a healthcare provider\employer to cover birth control, because it will cost them more than seeing an unplanned pregnancy all the way through, but that should be their call based on their actuary tables or PR, not just because the thing is round and passes through a pharmacy.

This assumes, of course, that health insurance is still insurance, and not a subscription to whatever you want that you could make a remote medical argument for.
 
2014-03-25 09:43:11 AM  
SCOTUS needs to laughingly toss these asshats out like they came in a revolving door.
 
2014-03-25 09:43:25 AM  

Twigz221: I'd like to point out that universal healthcare would completely solve an issue like this, as it would take the burden of healthcare away from businesses.


Yes. You don't fix a broken system by forcing more people to participate in it. I'm a total entrepreneur/capitalist/free-market guy and even I want to just sign up for medicare and be done with it.
 
2014-03-25 09:44:55 AM  
Good. Those IEDs are horrible. Why should a company be providing them anyhow? The'yre dangerous.
 
2014-03-25 09:45:12 AM  
They seems to want it both ways..They want to go all Galt and not have regulations etc. etc.. But yet they want to tell everyone else what they can and cannot do with their own body.
 
2014-03-25 09:45:55 AM  
I think that Hobby Lobby is in the wrong here.  And I hope they lose.

That said, if they do lose, I would have to consider it a "courage of conviction" test.  If they really believe what they believe, they should either stop providing health insurance at all, paying the $2000.00/yr/employee tax (the dick-thing), or sell the company (to someone who would probably lower wages, increase working hours, open on Sunday: the other dick-thing).

Hell, maybe it is better for their employees overall if they don't lose, if they are going to "pass" their courage-of-conviction test.

I hope they lose, and hope they just concede defeat.
 
2014-03-25 09:46:07 AM  

crow: In what way does refusing to pay for something for a third party limit that third party's access to that thing? Those third parties can go to any pharmacy and pay for their own (insert item here) can't they?

Because Hobby Lobby doesn't pay for home cable TV service, does that limit their employees access to HBO?


Discuss...

ac·cess       [ak-ses] noun1.

1. the ability, right, or permission to approach, enter, speak with, or  u se; admittance:They have access to the files.
2. the state or quality of being approachable:The house was difficult  of access.
3. a way or means of approach:The only access to the house was a roug h dirt road.
4. Theology. approach to God through Jesus Christ.
5. an attack or onset, as of a disease.



This. Here's a novel thought: you don't like their policies? you think they don't pay a decent wage? Fantastic.

Don't work there.

Done.
 
2014-03-25 09:48:09 AM  
i am waiting for someone to decide their religion is against killing and consuming animals so they can refuse to cover damn near every prescription that has some trace of an animal by product in it. that makes about as much sense as this.
 
2014-03-25 09:48:30 AM  

crow: In what way does refusing to pay for something for a third party limit that third party's access to that thing? Those third parties can go to any pharmacy and pay for their own (insert item here) can't they?

Because Hobby Lobby doesn't pay for home cable TV service, does that limit their employees access to HBO?


Discuss...


The point is that HL wants to go out of their way to have their insurance company NOT provide payment for certain items that the carrier already covers under thousands of other policies, because Jesus.

Using their religious beliefs as the impetus for this creates an opening for them to deny all sorts of things in the future, arbitrarily, should they suddenly decide that Jesus wouldn't want their employees to have insurance pay for transplants or whatever..

If the HL owners PERSONALLY do not wish to have payment coverage for items in their own insurance policies, that's fine..

Forcing it on other people due to some trumped up moral high ground is bullshiat and the supreme court should find the same.
 
2014-03-25 09:50:40 AM  
Birth control being covered is something that needs to happen.

That being said, I think pfizer or any other group could make a killing renaming a birth control pill and selling it as a cure all for things that BC pills fix, with one of the listed side effects then being "may prevent pregnancy" wink wink.
 
2014-03-25 09:50:43 AM  
http://live.scotusblog.com/Event/Live_blog_of_opinions__March_25_2014

For any wonky types who want to follow along...
 
2014-03-25 09:51:02 AM  

GDubDub: If they really believe what they believe,


The owner has already stated that he would shut down the entire company before he's "forced" to provide those tools of Satan to their employees.

DO IT YOU FARKSTAIN!
 
2014-03-25 09:52:03 AM  
Just want to comment here that they do not actually object to providing contraception and their current insurance policy does cover it. They object only to birth control that they believe prevents implantation of fertilized embryos. Essentially, their objection is to 'morning after pills.' Not hormonal birth control pills. I think that that's a distinction worth pointing out.
 
2014-03-25 09:52:30 AM  

markie_farkie: GDubDub: If they really believe what they believe,

The owner has already stated that he would shut down the entire company before he's "forced" to provide those tools of Satan to their employees.

DO IT YOU FARKSTAIN!


yea I will believe that when it happens
 
2014-03-25 09:54:24 AM  
F*ck Hobby Lobby.
 
2014-03-25 09:55:24 AM  

crow: In what way does refusing to pay for something for a third party limit that third party's access to that thing? Those third parties can go to any pharmacy and pay for their own (insert item here) can't they?

Because Hobby Lobby doesn't pay for home cable TV service, does that limit their employees access to HBO?


Discuss...

ac·cess       [ak-ses] noun1.

1. the ability, right, or permission to approach, enter, speak with, or  u se; admittance:They have access to the files.
2. the state or quality of being approachable:The house was difficult  of access.
3. a way or means of approach:The only access to the house was a roug h dirt road.
4. Theology. approach to God through Jesus Christ.
5. an attack or onset, as of a disease.


Nice try, but since Hobby Lobby wants tax breaks for providing their employees with insurance, you're kind of barking up the wrong tree. Hobby Lobby wants to not pay taxes, but simultaneously, they're demanding yet another third party (insurance companies) not pay for contranception, and they're demanding that still other third parties (doctors) not counsel or provide medically relevant advice to their employees regarding contraception or birth control. Nobody is forcing Hobby Lobby to provide insurance at all, they're welcome to just pay the fine that subsidizes the exchanges so their employees can go out and just shop for the insurance they want... but what they want is to force their employees on to plans that don't provide necessary levels of care, then they want tax breaks for doing so.
 
2014-03-25 09:57:13 AM  

ZombieBear: Birth control being covered is something that needs to happen.

That being said, I think pfizer or any other group could make a killing renaming a birth control pill and selling it as a cure all for things that BC pills fix, with one of the listed side effects then being "may prevent pregnancy" wink wink.


ding ding ding. Even if they refuse to provide it as birth control, I'm sure they are still on the hook for other medically "necessary" uses of it, and I'm sure most doctors would prescribe it for regulating menstruation, for instance, with a wink and a nod as to why it was really being used.

Company gets to keep its moral ground, people who really want it on the cheap still have access, folks who can afford it and don't want to go through the extra step pay out of pocket and keep costs down. Everyone wins.
 
2014-03-25 09:57:17 AM  
Meanwhile Hobby Lobby closed down in my city. Not that I went there.  My hobbies consist of walking into a comic book shop and finding random black and white serial shows/movies that my dad likes.

Ah comic book stores. It used to be that they didn't have to have a variety outside of comic books in order to stay open.
 
2014-03-25 09:57:26 AM  

senoy: Just want to comment here that they do not actually object to providing contraception and their current insurance policy does cover it. They object only to birth control that they believe prevents implantation of fertilized embryos. Essentially, their objection is to 'morning after pills.' Not hormonal birth control pills. I think that that's a distinction worth pointing out.


they object to obamacare and after losing a sc battle and a shiat ton of repeal votes they see this as their last chance to weaken it. they are making as defensable a test case as possible here but the end result would be employers could arbitrarily pick what is and isn't covered. there is no reason a business owner couldn't have a moral objection to blood transfusions, aids treatments, surgery etc. it is easier to frame it around bc because 'hah let those stupid sluts pay for their own immoral activities or keep their legs shut'.
 
2014-03-25 09:59:04 AM  

firefly212: they're demanding yet another third party (insurance companies) not pay for contranception


2 points here.

1. Hobby Lobby "self-insures." They are the "third party (insurance company)."
2. Hobby Lobby objects to the requirement that certain contraceptions that prevent the implantation of the embryo be covered. While it may be true that in the past, Hobby Lobby has offered health insurance that covers hormonal birth control, such as the pill, they did not cover such prescriptions such as the "Morning After Pill."
 
2014-03-25 10:00:11 AM  

Mr. Shabooboo: They seems to want it both ways..They want to go all Galt and not have regulations etc. etc.. But yet they want to tell everyone else what they can and cannot do with their own body.


Classic libertarian thinking.  They want the freedom to deny freedom to their employees.
 
2014-03-25 10:01:55 AM  
I'd be OK with not covering birth control pills, as long as it still covered hormone augmentation and regulation medication.  You know, various combinations of estrogen and progestogen, used to treat a number of conditions, as well as regulate one's cycle.  No harm in that, right?

/And then the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists demanded insurance covered only procedures that their religions approved of...
 
2014-03-25 10:02:35 AM  

senoy: Just want to comment here that they do not actually object to providing contraception and their current insurance policy does cover it. They object only to birth control that they believe prevents implantation of fertilized embryos. Essentially, their objection is to 'morning after pills.' Not hormonal birth control pills. I think that that's a distinction worth pointing out.


http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/health/research/morning-after-pil ls-dont-block-implantation-science-suggests.html?pagewanted=all&

the distinction is actually pretty debatable.
 
2014-03-25 10:06:24 AM  
markie_farkie: The owner has already stated that he would shut down the entire company before he's "forced" to provide those tools of Satan to their employees.


Considering that (in the town nearest to my house) there's a Michael's directly across the street from Hobby Lobby, I'm okay with this.

Although it's pretty shiatty to put all of your employees out of work just because you want to stay on your personal moral high ground. Don't let the pitchfork hit you in the ass on your way down, Hobby Lobby.
 
2014-03-25 10:09:15 AM  

senoy: Just want to comment here that they do not actually object to providing contraception and their current insurance policy does cover it. They object only to birth control that they believe prevents implantation of fertilized embryos. Essentially, their objection is to 'morning after pills.' Not hormonal birth control pills. I think that that's a distinction worth pointing out.


I hate to break it to you, and I say this knowing biology is not anti-abortion advocates' strong point, but both forms of pills work the same way.  Neither causes an abortion of a fertilized embyro that's already been implanted.
 
2014-03-25 10:11:13 AM  

markie_farkie: GDubDub: If they really believe what they believe,

The owner has already stated that he would shut down the entire company before he's "forced" to provide those tools of Satan to their employees.

DO IT YOU FARKSTAIN!


Screw thousands of your own employees and millions of customers because you can't get your way?  How Christian of him.
 
2014-03-25 10:13:34 AM  

LineNoise: ZombieBear: Birth control being covered is something that needs to happen.

That being said, I think pfizer or any other group could make a killing renaming a birth control pill and selling it as a cure all for things that BC pills fix, with one of the listed side effects then being "may prevent pregnancy" wink wink.

ding ding ding. Even if they refuse to provide it as birth control, I'm sure they are still on the hook for other medically "necessary" uses of it, and I'm sure most doctors would prescribe it for regulating menstruation, for instance, with a wink and a nod as to why it was really being used.

Company gets to keep its moral ground, people who really want it on the cheap still have access, folks who can afford it and don't want to go through the extra step pay out of pocket and keep costs down. Everyone wins.


Hooray for medical fraud.
 
2014-03-25 10:13:48 AM  

Twigz221: I'd like to point out that universal healthcare would completely solve an issue like this


I'd like to point out that the universe is a very big place
 
2014-03-25 10:18:42 AM  
you like hobby lobbies don't you squidward?
 
2014-03-25 10:18:51 AM  
Somebody explain to me how a company has religious beliefs?

Religious beliefs (or their absence) are something that people have (yeah, yeah, I know...), they go along with having free will, and a conscience and emotions. A company is a useful legal fiction that exists only as a contract on paper; it doesn't have beliefs. Nor are the beliefs of its founders, its owners, its shareholders, its creditors, or anybody else the same thing as the company.

Obliging a company health plan to cover birth control is, in the most literal sense, victimless.
 
2014-03-25 10:19:49 AM  
You down with IUD? Yeah you know me!
You down with IUD? Yeah you know me!
You down with IUD? Yeah you know me!
Who's down with IUD? Every last homie!
 
2014-03-25 10:21:15 AM  
No more hobby lobby for me.  Guess i'm going to have to start shopping at the art cart.
 
2014-03-25 10:21:25 AM  

ciderczar: Good. Those IEDs are horrible. Why should a company be providing them anyhow? The'yre dangerous.


I know you're joking, but just in case there's someone here who doesn't know what an IUD is, I have an instructional comic by Erika Moen that should explain it. The strip is called 'Oh Joy Sex Toy', so I shouldn't have to tell you how NSFW it is.
 
2014-03-25 10:24:44 AM  
Isn't the whole issue here, that the ACA requires companies to cover contraceptives.  If you could get out of contraceptives on religious grounds, then a Christian Science company could get out of ACA entirely, or if your religion didn't believe in OSHA or overtime, or maternity leave, you could get out of those.

ACA is the law, the law requires you to cover contraceptives, so cover them.
 
2014-03-25 10:25:30 AM  

czetie: Somebody explain to me how a company has religious beliefs?

Religious beliefs (or their absence) are something that people have (yeah, yeah, I know...), they go along with having free will, and a conscience and emotions. A company is a useful legal fiction that exists only as a contract on paper; it doesn't have beliefs. Nor are the beliefs of its founders, its owners, its shareholders, its creditors, or anybody else the same thing as the company.

Obliging a company health plan to cover birth control is, in the most literal sense, victimless.



How can a legal piece of fiction provide a health plan? Sure the founders, its owners, its shareholders, and its creditors could but that's not the same thing as the company apparently.
 
2014-03-25 10:26:45 AM  
So if the company were run by a Jehovah's Witness that didn't believe in blood transfusions or by a Christian Scientist that didn't believe in modern medicine at all then it would be ok to also deny these procedures too?


Once again we see the embracing teachings of Jesus twisted by followers and used as a method to exclude their fellow man.
 
2014-03-25 10:26:59 AM  

czetie: Somebody explain to me how a company has religious beliefs?


Well, sometimes good companies go chapter 11 and are reborn again but other times they go chapter 7 and go live in heaven with their mommy, daddy and grandparents forever and ever just like the good lord intended.
 
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