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(The Raw Story)   Creationist Ken Ham says that "God is a God of grace and mercy" and will demonstrate this by roasting Bill Maher in a "lake which burns with fire and brimstone" for eternity   (rawstory.com) divider line 515
    More: Amusing, Ken Ham, Bill Maher, Bill Nye, the Science Guy, roasts, mercy, PZ Myers, righteousness, lakes  
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6786 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2014 at 1:01 PM (18 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-24 04:10:44 PM

Rueened: whidbey: Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?

None of those things are my concern, really. Why are you asking me?

Why do free-thinking people rustle your jimmies so much?

Apart from their smugness, arrogance, narrow-mindedness and intolerance...?

Oh, nothing I can put my finger on really.


Not surprised. What else do you find irritating about liberals?
 
2014-03-24 04:10:50 PM
"A behaviorist would say that I believe in god because I was raised to and have never broken my operant conditioning

A sociologist would say it's because I was raised in a society where the vast majority of people do in some for or another

An Nuerobiologist would say it's because human intelligence evolved to seek patterns in random events and it is therefore easily deluded into seeing order and intent where none exists.

An atheist might merely pronounce me superstitious and deluded, emotionally immature and needing a crutch to face the great void of non-existence and the terror of the grave."

What if you're just stupid?
 
2014-03-24 04:11:26 PM

whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.


You can believe that if you want. I really don't care. But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.
 
2014-03-24 04:12:23 PM

Trivia Jockey: The point wasn't to refute your beliefs, it was to refute your statement that Christianity isn't forced on anyone in this country (implying that we shouldn't be so upset about it).


What beliefs? I already said I'm not religious, shocking as that may sound.

And no-one's forced to be Christian... I mean, do ever listen to yourself when you talk, or does it kind of drift in and out like you've got tinnitus or something?
 
2014-03-24 04:12:55 PM

whidbey: Ghastly: What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" thinks they sound like
You poor silly people arguing over stuff you can't prove. If only you were as enlightened and as open minded as me, you'd see how foolish you are. I hope you'll bring it up to my level, for your sake.

What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" sound like to to anyone who has studied religion.
I am completely unfamiliar with even the most basic of theological terms but I'm a contrarian with a superiority complex so I'll just make up my own definitions for words then apply them to everyone else in ways that make me look superior and them inferior.

I think they have a right to take that position. Sure it sounds smug and disrespectful, but for centuries religion has not only been an unquestionable paradigm, but even questioning it has brought severe punishment and hardship for those who dared.

It's no different today. I mean hell, you have to be a CHRISTIAN to be President of this country.

Get over it.


It's not a nonapodeictic, agnostic atheist nor a nonapodeictic, agnostic theist, nor even an apatheist position I take umbrage with but the further pollution of the English language with vagary and dilution for the purpose of setting one up as a special little snowflake, superior to all others.

Words have meaning, and they should use them. Those who cannot speak clearly cannot think clearly and those who cannot think clearly run the risk of having others think for them.
 
2014-03-24 04:15:16 PM

allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.

You can believe that if you want. I really don't care.


Of course you care about it. You're that insecure about your belief.

But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

No, I said your position was illogical. And it still is.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.

Because questioning tiresome obsolete beliefs and illogical positions= bullying

Got it.
 
2014-03-24 04:15:27 PM

allylloyd: RedTank: safetycap: allylloyd: eraser8: I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?

And my Weeners is "Why not?" My believe in God (includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is because I have faith. I don't need to physically touch, hear or see God to believe in God.

You didn't answer the question. "I have faith" is  HOW you believe in god not why.

Why don't you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns? You don't need to physically touch, hear or see them in order to believe in them. They also have stories written about them in books. So why YHWH instead of FSM/PU?


I'll answer for allylloyd.  allylloyd believes in God because it makes life easier to cope with.  It's that simple.  For religious people it's not a matter of what's real or not it's a matter of what they have to tell themselves everyday in order to live their life.

KEEP YOUR SMUG ANSWERS TO YOURSELF! I can talk for myself--I don't need people like you talking for me.


//Along with being a Christian, I can also be a NYer (when necessary). NY women aren't afraid to kick someone's ass!


If you agreed a lot more athiests would respect you for your honesty. There is no shame in wanting to cope with pain.
 
2014-03-24 04:17:18 PM

whidbey: Not surprised. What else do you find irritating about liberals?


Also not surprised that you crossed out the relevant part of my statement and pretended that I'd never said it.

Although you're supposed to delete it before quoting - you're losing your touch.

And what gives you the right to assume it's about liberal vs conservative? Why do you assume I'm a conservative?
 
2014-03-24 04:17:24 PM

Rueened: Apart from their smugness, arrogance, narrow-mindedness and intolerance...?

Oh, nothing I can put my finger on really.


- Are you asserting that the list of things (Blue Laws, abortion restrictions, legality of gay marriage) I mentioned don't exist?

- If you agree that they exist, are you asserting they their existence is *not* due to religion?

- If you agree that they owe their existence to religion, are you asserting that they - as laws - are not being forced upon [me]?
 
2014-03-24 04:17:39 PM

Ghastly: It's not a nonapodeictic, agnostic atheist nor a nonapodeictic, agnostic theist, nor even an apatheist position I take umbrage with but the further pollution of the English language with vagary and dilution for the purpose of setting one up as a special little snowflake, superior to all others.


I'd still urge you to get over it. And people who continue to question centuries of oppressive ideology are special to me, if anything, just for doing it.
 
2014-03-24 04:18:24 PM

Rueened: And no-one's forced to be Christian... I mean, do ever listen to yourself when you talk, or does it kind of drift in and out like you've got tinnitus or something?



I guess I need to take you back to your comment:

Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

The person responding to this comment pointed out a number of ways that Christianity (or at least certain aspects of it) IS forced upon all of us.  In what we believe are very negative ways.  Your particular religious beliefs or lack thereof are totally irrelevant.
 
2014-03-24 04:18:56 PM

Egoy3k: Magorn: Egoy3k: Magorn: Just as a computer  cannot truly produce a random number, I do not believe the universe can either.

I'm not trying to call you out or be a prick I have an honest question;

Would you say that this belief means that the universe is determinant in nature? In other words since you don't believe in randomness that all actions are predetermined and that free will is an illusion?

If so how do you reconcile a determinant universe with an all powerful god?  If God is predestined to do something, knows what his actions are going to be, and has the power to do anything he likes could God change his mind?

Well if you believe that god is outside of space time , yes he could change the universe according to his desires.  Would he?  I cannot presume to pronounce on something so far beyond my understanding.   As to the free will question, it is a difficult one and one i have never worked out a satisfactory answer to.  I first wrestled with it all the way back during my confirmation days (12-13) and made the mistake of engaging my instructor, an Irish Jesuit on this very question.  His answer was that free will is absolute, and in all things we have a true and meaningful choice, but the omniscience of God makes him also a perfect judge of human nature, so he knows what choice we will make before we make it. (and since he was a Jesuit, he further postulated that God alone could know the speed AND position of any particle)

Not sure that works for me entirely, but it is AN answer anyway

Thanks. It's a pretty hard question to answer and ascribing omnipotence to God causes a paradox that in my opinion cannot be fully reconciled unless you posit either a second actor who is unknowable to god (so basically an Atreides) or that god does not know himself but that just makes god the single source of randomness in the universe which is pretty much just using a different word for  nature. Like Is aid that is just like, my opinion, man. I don't believe in God so my ...


You are not alone.  It's a key unanswered question/logical flaw in the whole system and it has been wresetled with mightily by religious scholar.   Most notably, in the Juedo-christian tradition, it was attempting to wrestle with this paradox that led to the  d the Kabbalah and by extension many of the Gnostic interpretations of Christianity.

God is all powerful, they said, so all he had to do to create the universe was to have a desire to do so.  But God is also eternal, unchanging and perfect, ergo God could not HAVE a desire since desire implies imperfection.   Ergo, the work of creation must not have been done by GOD by by lesser being who were each an ASPECT of god called Emanations   and it was those that created the universe (and all sorts of lesser orders of angels.who wereemanations of the emanations. (if this is starting to sound awfully Hindu, well that may not be total coincidence)
 
2014-03-24 04:20:24 PM

whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.

You can believe that if you want. I really don't care.

Of course you care about it. You're that insecure about your belief.

But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

No, I said your position was illogical. And it still is.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.

Because questioning tiresome obsolete beliefs and illogical positions= bullying

Got it.



 I answered it. You did not like my first answer and asked for definition/interpretation. I gave my definition and interpretation and STILL you didn't like the answer I gave you. Until I say what you want, you will not like my response. SO STOP ASKING THE DAMN QUESTIONS!
 
2014-03-24 04:20:31 PM

Rueened: whidbey: Not surprised. What else do you find irritating about liberals?

Also not surprised that you crossed out the relevant part of my statement and pretended that I'd never said it.


It wasn't "relevant." You don't care for people speaking their own minds. All you've done here is ridicule them.

Although you're supposed to delete it before quoting - you're losing your touch.

You're kind of a control freak, too. Just saying.

And what gives you the right to assume it's about liberal vs conservative? Why do you assume I'm a conservative?

Because you obviously find socially progressive people irritating.
 
2014-03-24 04:20:32 PM

allylloyd: eraser8: allylloyd: Sorry, but I'm not going to change my response to suit you.

I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.

Either you have a reason for believing in a particular god or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one god from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible gods to those that are currently worshiped, there are, at least, hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

Not everybody has a logical reason for believing in a god.  I can accept that...and, I suspect you fall into that category.

Whatever you choose to believe doesn't offend me.  I only asked the question because I was interested in the answer.  Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.

I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

//At no point in my life have I ever been told: I must believe in God, I better believe in God or I should believe in God.
//I was raised in (and still a member of) a church that follows what's known as the Three Legged Stool 1)Scripture, 2) Tradition (Baptism/Eucharist) and 3) Reason (ask questions, never stop asking questions)


The first two reasons seem to be axiomatic rather than logical.  But, the fact that they're axiomatic rather than logical doesn't mean they're not valid.

I'm not sure how I'd classify your third argument.  It seems like an appeal to one premise to support another.    There's probably a word for that...but, I don't know what it is.

In any case, from the way you've answered my question, I suspect you saw my me as challenging your beliefs.  That wasn't my intention.  Like I wrote earlier, what you believe doesn't matter to me.  I have a specific interest in a specific subject and that interest isn't convincing you that your beliefs are wrong.

Thanks for your responses, though.
 
2014-03-24 04:22:07 PM

Danger Mouse: Do onto others as you would have them do onto you?

That's a great idea.  I wonder were it came from. ;)


The Code of Hammurabi?  Ancient China? Ancient Egypt?  Ancient Greece? You weren't seriously suggesting it was the bible were you?
 Like every other part of christianity it was borrowed/stolen from an earlier source, not a single thing about the religion is original.
 
2014-03-24 04:22:33 PM

allylloyd: The Holy Spirit first "appears" in the Old Testament. When you are baptized, you are blessed with the Holy Spirit.


Seeing as "baptism" began with John the Baptist, I think you have a major flaw in your exegesis, here.

Magorn: Old Catholic theology gets this, old hymns refer to the incident as " O happy fault. O NECESSARY Sin of Adam"


And yet, Judas hanged himself/was dashed to pieces on rocks (depending on which version of the Passion you're reading).

Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice got this.
 
2014-03-24 04:22:49 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.


I am a Christian and I believe Heaven is for everyone - Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.

God is capable of love on a level beyond human comprehension.

Won't my fellow Christians be surprised when they get to Heaven and meet their atheist neighbor!!

God loves you, whether you believe in Him or not.
 
2014-03-24 04:23:05 PM

allylloyd: I answered it. You did not like my first answer and asked for definition/interpretation. I gave my definition and interpretation and STILL you didn't like the answer I gave you.


You're right . I didn't like your second illogical reply any more than the first.

Until I say what you want, you will not like my response. SO STOP ASKING THE DAMN QUESTIONS!

Again, you said there was a "logical" reason why you believed in God. I pointed out the fallacy in your thinking.

Rather than acquiesce, you made personal attacks. I'd say we're done here.
 
2014-03-24 04:24:40 PM
A brief analogy to describe the conversation so far:

allyloyd: I drive a Ford F150

eraser8: Why? Why do you drive a Ford f150?

allyloyd : And my response is "Why not?" My driving of a Ford F150 is because I love to drive

eraser8: By that reasoning (if honest) you should be willing to drive ANY car because you love to drive. How could you possibly choose just one?  And, how did you choose the one you chose?

allyloyd : I'm not changing my response for you.

eraser8: I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.
Either you have a reason for driving that particular car or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one car from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible cars to those that are currently manufactured, there are at least hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

allyloyd: I drive a Ford F150 because I can drive a Ford F150 .  I drive a Ford F150 because I want to  drive a Ford F150 .  I drive a Ford F150 because  driving a Ford F150 makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

And around and around you go - never actually answering the question. Why don't you drive a Honda Accord? Why don't you drive a Mercedes? Why did you choose a Ford F150 over all the other possible cars to drive? Especially if you posit that there is only one correct car to drive, and choosing the wrong one will result in eternal damnation.

So I'll ask once more - what made you choose the belief system you currently hold? I'd bet my next paycheck that the answer is "Because that's what my parents and all of the adults around me said was true my whole life - from even before I could read or write."

Personally, I think eraser8 is barking up the wrong tree, since that is almost universally the answer to that question. The more interesting discussion is when that question is directed at converts.
 
2014-03-24 04:25:59 PM

yakmans_dad: The Old Testament Yahweh shares almost nothing with the God the Father whom Jesus worships.

But It proved impossible to kick out volcano god Yahweh and maintain the belief in the inerrancy of the Bible so the Church (and by that I mean organized Christians not just Roman Catholics) accepted the idea that the unbaptized -- including infants -- went to Hell. The idea that the Bible was a collection of incompatible views on religion is so abhorrent that they construed a loving Father to mean someone who will torture infinitely people who have done nothing wrong. And since Life begins at conception RAPE, you don't even have to be born to suffer infinitely. If the woman miscarries, Hell is the zygote's "justifiable" destination.

 
2014-03-24 04:27:49 PM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: The more interesting discussion is when that question is directed at converts.


Then I would try to find out if they were recovering addicts or alcoholics. Probably wouldn't be surprised by the confirmation.
 
2014-03-24 04:28:14 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: /Both are assholes, IMHO


Save that I'm not the asshole trying to force my prejudices on you by force of law.
 
2014-03-24 04:30:56 PM

allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.

You can believe that if you want. I really don't care. But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.


He is not saying what you believe is wrong... you misunderstood him. He is not putting you down, or shaming your religion. He is simply stating that when you said "I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons " that they are not logical. nothing more, nothing less.
 
2014-03-24 04:31:01 PM

eraser8: DROxINxTHExWIND: You know, I'll answer as honestly as I can...it's probably indoctrination, mixed with a little bit of "better to believe than to go to Hell" in the back of my mind. I've sat and pondered it myself.

I can buy the indoctrination part.  That seems quite common.

As for your "better to believe that go to Hell," you've probably been told (or, I hope you have been) how flawed that reasoning is.  It's just not logically coherent.  Don't misunderstand; the fact that Pascal's Wager (your argument is named that after its most notable proponent, Blaise Pascal) is logically incoherent doesn't mean your god doesn't exist...but, the argument itself really can be thrown out as bad thinking.


It's also insulting to God. It assumes that God is so shallow, gullible, and stupid as to be fooled by a pretense of faith. It's like people don't think that God can see into their very minds.
 
2014-03-24 04:32:47 PM

Rueened: Trivia Jockey: The point wasn't to refute your beliefs, it was to refute your statement that Christianity isn't forced on anyone in this country (implying that we shouldn't be so upset about it).

What beliefs? I already said I'm not religious, shocking as that may sound.

And no-one's forced to be Christian... I mean, do ever listen to yourself when you talk, or does it kind of drift in and out like you've got tinnitus or something?


Forced and coerced are two different things, that I will give you.
 
2014-03-24 04:33:15 PM

nmrsnr: Oh Internet, you never disappoint:

[iguessimagrownup.files.wordpress.com image 500x245]


Such a good movie. Now I want to watch it again.
 
2014-03-24 04:33:40 PM

allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.

You can believe that if you want. I really don't care.

Of course you care about it. You're that insecure about your belief.

But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

No, I said your position was illogical. And it still is.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.

Because questioning tiresome obsolete beliefs and illogical positions= bullying

Got it.


 I answered it. You did not like my first answer and asked for definition/interpretation. I gave my definition and interpretation and STILL you didn't like the answer I gave you. Until I say what you want, you will not like my response. SO STOP ASKI ...


Has it occurred to you that if you had happened to be raised in a different time, place, or culture you might have a very different set of beliefs; but you'd feel just as strong that they are true as you currently do with Christianity?
 
2014-03-24 04:36:06 PM

The_Hairy_Gooch: He is not saying what you believe is wrong... you misunderstood him. He is not putting you down, or shaming your religion. He is simply stating that when you said "I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons " that they are not logical. nothing more, nothing less.


Furthermore, the implication is that they are emotional. Again, no judgement, just fact.
 
2014-03-24 04:38:16 PM

The_Hairy_Gooch: Forced and coerced are two different things, that I will give you.


True, but immaterial. He didn't assert that no one was being forced to be religious. He stated that no one was forcing religion on anyone.
 
2014-03-24 04:40:07 PM
Magorn:

No, but it does sound a lot like The Silmarillion.

Anyone else think that Morgoth just started playing an electric guitar solo in the church choir, hence the dissonance?
 
2014-03-24 04:40:55 PM
allylloyd:

I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:

1) I believe in God because I can believe in God.


2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God.


3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...


You may want to have some knowledge of what logic is and logical fallacies are before you start claiming things are logical that clearly aren't.

1) Begging the Question , and a meaningless tautology

2) Begging the Question

3) Appeal to emotion , Appeal to personal experience,
 
2014-03-24 04:41:00 PM

allylloyd: 2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God.


I want to see my dead mother again. Alive, I mean. That, sadly, will never happen. Dead is dead and the universe doesn't give a damn what I want.
 
2014-03-24 04:43:00 PM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Personally, I think eraser8 is barking up the wrong tree, since that is almost universally the answer to that question.


I was very deliberately NOT looking for a psychological or neurobiological answer.  I really wanted a believer's perspective.
 
2014-03-24 04:43:02 PM

tlars699: Anyone else think that Morgoth just started playing an electric guitar solo in the church choir, hence the dissonance?


What electric guitar in church might look/sound like.

// Sister Rosetta Tharpe, who would have turned 99 on 20MAR2014
 
2014-03-24 04:43:14 PM

whidbey: It wasn't "relevant." You don't care for people speaking their own minds.


I do if they have something relevant to say.

All you've done here is ridicule them.

Disagree with = ridicule. Whatever you say.

You're kind of a control freak, too. Just saying.

wat

Because you obviously find socially progressive people irritating.

... and narrow-minded, arrogant, naive, intolerant of disagreement...
 
2014-03-24 04:44:00 PM

allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.

You can believe that if you want. I really don't care.

Of course you care about it. You're that insecure about your belief.

But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

No, I said your position was illogical. And it still is.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.

Because questioning tiresome obsolete beliefs and illogical positions= bullying

Got it.


 I answered it. You did not like my first answer and asked for definition/interpretation. I gave my definition and interpretation and STILL you didn't like the answer I gave you. Until I say what you want, you will not like my response. SO STOP ASKI ...


There is no inherent reasoning to your reasons.
It's just :Because I want to.

No answer to the why do you want to's, no axioms other than the above, nothing to convince the adherent followers of Logic that they should; just that it suits you(which is fine). There is no other root to it, just the tap root of your opinion.

Hence, it is not Logical.

So, don't use that word.
Only Vulcans can use that word.
 
2014-03-24 04:45:25 PM

allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

//At no point in my life have I ever been told: I must believe in God, I better believe in God or I should believe in God.
//I was raised in (and still a member of) a church that follows what's known as the Three Legged Stool 1)Scripture, 2) Tradition (Baptism/Eucharist) and 3) Reason (ask questions, never stop asking questions)


so you 'chose' the exact same religion as your parents... and their parents and... how convenient that your forefathers chose the 'correct' religion... gasp... what if they had been jewish or muslim or (god forbid) pagans... I'm guessing you haven't put a lot of effort into investigating 'other' religions... you should... however I'm afraid you'll find that they all have basically the same stumbling blocks...
and you are failing pretty hard at that 'never stop asking questions' part... unless you also aren't interested in getting answers for any of those questions.  If 'faith' or 'belief' is a comfort to you and makes your life feel 'worthwhile'... then just say that... it's a coping mechanism.
 
2014-03-24 04:45:39 PM

tlars699: Only Vulcans can use that word.


Indeed.
 
2014-03-24 04:47:16 PM

allylloyd: //I believe in the Trinity; this means there's ONE God with different name.


Actually, no - the Christian concept of the Trinity most certainly does not refer to three different "names" for god - it refers to three distinct, divine persons within the Godhead.

Three different names for one God sounds an awful lot like the Sabellian heresy
 
2014-03-24 04:48:13 PM

UncomfortableSilence: Magorn: UncomfortableSilence: Magorn:

Recognizing that we are arguing over the truths hidden in a creation story of a 6000 year old nomadic culture, I have always interpreted the Adam and Eve story thusly:  it is a metaphor for the moments humans gained sentience and self-awareness.   The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gives it away to me.  Can you ascribe "morality" to the actions of an animal except as an anthropomorphic delusion?  When a cat toys with its prey before killing it, is it "evil" or merely doing what cats are programmed to do?  Can you honestly say that any animal's actions whether it is your dog peeing on a rug or even that chimp who ate a woman;s face off, had a MORAL dimension?  That is, was good o ...

If it was necessary, then why is it a sin.  We were created, a tree with the knowledge of morality was placed in the garden, and we were forbidden to know that.  Why tempt us? Why give us free will if you know that what will happen will be the eating of fruit from said tree? Why punish them and all who descended from them for gaining that knowledge, if you claimed it to be necessary?

Depends how you define sin and punishment.   You could say it was "original sin" merely because it gave us the CAPACITY to sin, which is to say chose to do evil and then the "punishment" then is not so much the wrath of god but the burden of that responsibility , that once we start on the path to taking our moral judgments for ourselves there is no going back, and it is a heavy burden, and one that has caused great pain and suffering for us as a race, but also all the works of mankind, all out art our science etc.   TO me its the metaphor for humans taking the first steps on the long road to becoming the inheritors of Creation, sentient being with near godlike abilities to understand and manipulate creation.

Reasonable argument.


I've always seen the parable/story as being analogous to "Ignorance is bliss". Considering that the concept of "Sin" as we think of it in biblical terms is more properly considered to be a "mistake" rather than a mortal ZOMG DAMN YOU TO HELL that the medieval church wanted us to believe it was, I think "original sin" and the children of man being forever burdened with it, was always more of a metaphorical means of basically saying "look, by choosing to be curious and to learn, your lives are no longer ones of simple happiness and fulfillment without burden. Instead, you now have to live with being self-aware and therefore having to live with all of the crap that comes with understanding the miseries of life beyond simple animal life."

And with that regard, it is an "original sin" in that our ancestors, by choice or by evolution, gained the ability to reason and to have more extreme experiences with life than just the basics, and therefore burdened the species to understand the misery of heartache, the frustration of failure, and so on.

Since life is full of pain, failure, and disappointment, I can see how it's a fair allegory for the state of our existence, and DAMN THOSE MONKEYS FOR CHOOSING TO LISTEN TO THE MONOLITH!
 
2014-03-24 04:50:00 PM

whidbey: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.

Logically, though, how would you even know until it happens?


Medical science, how the fark does that work? We know that brain damage can destroy memories, scramble personalities, erase morals, destroy our ability to sense our surroundings, etc... We know that chemicals can alter the way in which we think. We have mountains of evidence that shows that everything the "mind" does is a function of the brain and no credible evidence that there is a incorporeal mind, to hell with anything like a soul.
 
2014-03-24 04:50:12 PM

Rueened: whidbey: It wasn't "relevant." You don't care for people speaking their own minds.

I do if they have something relevant to say.

All you've done here is ridicule them.

Disagree with = ridicule. Whatever you say.

You're kind of a control freak, too. Just saying.

wat

Because you obviously find socially progressive people irritating.

... and narrow-minded, arrogant, naive, intolerant of disagreement...


Explain the above, please.
Because you haven't really shown how they might be, just that you find them so.
 
2014-03-24 04:51:35 PM

whidbey: tlars699: Only Vulcans can use that word.

Indeed.


\\//
 
2014-03-24 04:53:18 PM

Gecko Gingrich: The_Hairy_Gooch: Forced and coerced are two different things, that I will give you.

True, but immaterial. He didn't assert that no one was being forced to be religious. He stated that no one was forcing religion on anyone.


I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt, otherwise he was coming off as a real jerk. I'm with you on the matter trust me. I came at it from this angle; maybe he believes that people are not having religion forced upon them because it is their decision to believe or not, no matter how much one is coerced or told to believe a certain thing. I would disagree, but I can see that argument.
 
2014-03-24 04:53:35 PM

allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.

I beg to differ! I had a partial left temporal lobectomy! Part of my brain is gone! I also have a benign brain tumor.
I am very much alive.


So, part of your brain is all of your brain?
 
2014-03-24 04:55:06 PM

Rueened: whidbey: It wasn't "relevant." You don't care for people speaking their own minds.

I do if they have something relevant to say.

All you've done here is ridicule them.

Disagree with = ridicule. Whatever you say.

You're kind of a control freak, too. Just saying.

wat

Because you obviously find socially progressive people irritating.

... and narrow-minded, arrogant, naive, intolerant of disagreement...


Show us on the doll where the free-thinking person touched you.
 
2014-03-24 04:55:33 PM

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?



Settle down. Rueened said he wasn't religious, so your point is invalid.
 
2014-03-24 04:56:28 PM

The_Hairy_Gooch: Gecko Gingrich: The_Hairy_Gooch: Forced and coerced are two different things, that I will give you.

True, but immaterial. He didn't assert that no one was being forced to be religious. He stated that no one was forcing religion on anyone.

I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt, otherwise he was coming off as a real jerk. I'm with you on the matter trust me. I came at it from this angle; maybe he believes that people are not having religion forced upon them because it is their decision to believe or not, no matter how much one is coerced or told to believe a certain thing. I would disagree, but I can see that argument.


Even with your statement as it was, isn't' there the weekly thread of a kid getting mistreated at a school because they don't follow the Christian based guidelines at a public school? Where they have to do *insert Xtian activity* else they are given detention, bad grades, etc?
 
2014-03-24 04:58:43 PM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: A brief analogy to describe the conversation so far:

allyloyd: I drive a Ford F150

eraser8: Why? Why do you drive a Ford f150?

allyloyd : And my response is "Why not?" My driving of a Ford F150 is because I love to drive

eraser8: By that reasoning (if honest) you should be willing to drive ANY car because you love to drive. How could you possibly choose just one?  And, how did you choose the one you chose?

allyloyd : I'm not changing my response for you.

eraser8: I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.
Either you have a reason for driving that particular car or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one car from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible cars to those that are currently manufactured, there are at least hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

allyloyd: I drive a Ford F150 because I can drive a Ford F150 .  I drive a Ford F150 because I want to  drive a Ford F150 .  I drive a Ford F150 because  driving a Ford F150 makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

And around and around you go - never actually answering the question. Why don't you drive a Honda Accord? Why don't you drive a Mercedes? Why did you choose a Ford F150 over all the other possible cars to drive? Especially if you posit that there is only one correct car to drive, and choosing the wrong one will result in eternal damnation.

So I'll ask once more - what made you choose the belief system you currently hold? I'd bet my next paycheck that the answer is "Because that's what my parents and all of the adults around me said was true my whole life - from even before I could read or write."

Personally, I think eraser8 is barking up the wrong tree, since that is almost universally the answer to that question. The more interesting discussion is when that question is directed at converts.


Pardon me, and I don't disagree that his statements are inherently illogical, but since when has "Because I farking want to" been a bad reason to do something? Unless you have a good reason NOT to do something, if the spirit, pardon the expression, moves you to do it, then why the fark not go with it?

Some people take this religion shiat wayyy too seriously, both on a pro- and an anti- level. How hard is it, fundies, to keep to your own and stop visiting misery onto others? How hard is it, atheists, to recognize that some people want to believe in a higher power and may not have a fundamentally logical or scientific reason to do so and let them have it?  As long as they're not hurting anyone, and actively shoving their shiat on you, why get upset about it? Why browbeat them and attempt to "educate" them, since chances are you're going to waste a lot of time and energy yelling at a brick wall?

Seriously, you'll have an easier time convincing a blind man that you're really harrison ford than you will convincing someone who has a fundamental belief that exists beyond reason that they're wrong. And half the time, what you accept as fundamental truth is just as much emotion as it is evidence.
 
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