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(The Raw Story)   Creationist Ken Ham says that "God is a God of grace and mercy" and will demonstrate this by roasting Bill Maher in a "lake which burns with fire and brimstone" for eternity   (rawstory.com) divider line 515
    More: Amusing, Ken Ham, Bill Maher, Bill Nye, the Science Guy, roasts, mercy, PZ Myers, righteousness, lakes  
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6786 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2014 at 1:01 PM (17 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-24 03:43:15 PM

Valiente: You know what God doesn't like? Ham.

You know what he does? Foreskins.

That'll do, Pig, that'll do.


img.fark.net
 
2014-03-24 03:43:35 PM

JackieRabbit: It amazes me that so-calld Christians know nothing about the basic tenants of their own religion. Did no one ever tell them that Jesus supposedly came to deliver God's new covenant with Man: that the vengeful God had seen the error of his ways and that the new relationship would replace vengeance with unconditional love?


Well then, if he was wrong he is neither perfect nor all-knowing.  Therefore, why even call him "God"?
 
2014-03-24 03:43:40 PM
Magorn:

Recognizing that we are arguing over the truths hidden in a creation story of a 6000 year old nomadic culture, I have always interpreted the Adam and Eve story thusly:  it is a metaphor for the moments humans gained sentience and self-awareness.   The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gives it away to me.  Can you ascribe "morality" to the actions of an animal except as an anthropomorphic delusion?  When a cat toys with its prey before killing it, is it "evil" or merely doing what cats are programmed to do?  Can you honestly say that any animal's actions whether it is your dog peeing on a rug or even that chimp who ate a woman;s face off, had a MORAL dimension?  That is, was good o ...

If it was necessary, then why is it a sin.  We were created, a tree with the knowledge of morality was placed in the garden, and we were forbidden to know that.  Why tempt us? Why give us free will if you know that what will happen will be the eating of fruit from said tree? Why punish them and all who descended from them for gaining that knowledge, if you claimed it to be necessary?
 
2014-03-24 03:44:38 PM

Egoy3k: Magorn: Just as a computer  cannot truly produce a random number, I do not believe the universe can either.

I'm not trying to call you out or be a prick I have an honest question;

Would you say that this belief means that the universe is determinant in nature? In other words since you don't believe in randomness that all actions are predetermined and that free will is an illusion?

If so how do you reconcile a determinant universe with an all powerful god?  If God is predestined to do something, knows what his actions are going to be, and has the power to do anything he likes could God change his mind?


Well if you believe that god is outside of space time , yes he could change the universe according to his desires.  Would he?  I cannot presume to pronounce on something so far beyond my understanding.   As to the free will question, it is a difficult one and one i have never worked out a satisfactory answer to.  I first wrestled with it all the way back during my confirmation days (12-13) and made the mistake of engaging my instructor, an Irish Jesuit on this very question.  His answer was that free will is absolute, and in all things we have a true and meaningful choice, but the omniscience of God makes him also a perfect judge of human nature, so he knows what choice we will make before we make it. (and since he was a Jesuit, he further postulated that God alone could know the speed AND position of any particle)

Not sure that works for me entirely, but it is AN answer anyway
 
2014-03-24 03:44:46 PM

RedTank: safetycap: allylloyd: eraser8: I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?

And my Weeners is "Why not?" My believe in God (includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is because I have faith. I don't need to physically touch, hear or see God to believe in God.

You didn't answer the question. "I have faith" is  HOW you believe in god not why.

Why don't you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns? You don't need to physically touch, hear or see them in order to believe in them. They also have stories written about them in books. So why YHWH instead of FSM/PU?


I'll answer for allylloyd.  allylloyd believes in God because it makes life easier to cope with.  It's that simple.  For religious people it's not a matter of what's real or not it's a matter of what they have to tell themselves everyday in order to live their life.


KEEP YOUR SMUG ANSWERS TO YOURSELF! I can talk for myself--I don't need people like you talking for me.


//Along with being a Christian, I can also be a NYer (when necessary). NY women aren't afraid to kick someone's ass!
 
2014-03-24 03:46:12 PM

Rueened: UncomfortableSilence: Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.

Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

So long as Christians demand that their belief in creationism, of which no real scientific evidence can be provided, be taught along science in classes.  You are trying to force things on us.

I'm neither Christian nor creationist. Try again.

So long as Christians demand that an entire minority population should not have equal rights because of your  faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I'm not Christian, and support equal rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to make it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not she has a child because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I don't have any faith, and I support reproductive rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to prevent birth control from being provided in the insurance you provide as an employer or in insurance policies in general because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

Nope, still not religious, and I support universal access to contraception.

You're not very good at this, are you?


So your not religious, then why biatch about atheists?  Ah, so you're a troll.  Good to know I can ignore you.
 
2014-03-24 03:46:28 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.


it's basic "carrot and stick" psychology.

back when the smart people were figuring out how to control the not-so-smart people they developed this method and it's worked ever since.

they're basically controlling them and taking their money in exchange for some snake oil.
 
2014-03-24 03:46:35 PM

allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...


Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."
 
2014-03-24 03:47:25 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: I think your problem is trying to attack the logic behind religion when religious people have already dismissed the need for tangible evidence of a Creator by saying that you just need faith.


I think you misunderstand.  I attacked the logic of Pascal's Wager.  I didn't attack the logic behind religion...unless you consider asking why a believer believes is, itself, an attack.

Pascal's Wager is simply sloppy thinking and logically incoherent.  But, as I said earlier, the defects in Pascal's Wager aren't important to the validity of your god hypothesis.

DROxINxTHExWIND: I watch the Science Channel. They talk about the Earth's core a lot, but they never mentioned seeing anything resembling a goat-man when they send a remote camera down into a volcano.


Again, you misunderstand (I say again even though this part of your post came first) The lack of evidence for a hell is not really relevant to my point.  The fact that Pascal's Wager is bad reasoning has nothing to do with whether there is a hell and, if there is one, whether it has a physical location.  As I said, Pascal's Wager is LOGICALLY flawed, not just empirically so.  One can start with the premise that a hell (whether physical or metaphorical) exists and Pascal's Wager is STILL a terrible, terrible argument.
 
2014-03-24 03:49:03 PM

UncomfortableSilence: Rueneed: Nope, still not religious, and I support universal access to contraception.

You're not very good at this, are you?


So your not religious, then why biatch about atheists?  Ah, so you're a troll.  Good to know I can ignore you.


*inb4 tipped fedora*
 
2014-03-24 03:49:34 PM

UncomfortableSilence: Magorn:

Recognizing that we are arguing over the truths hidden in a creation story of a 6000 year old nomadic culture, I have always interpreted the Adam and Eve story thusly:  it is a metaphor for the moments humans gained sentience and self-awareness.   The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gives it away to me.  Can you ascribe "morality" to the actions of an animal except as an anthropomorphic delusion?  When a cat toys with its prey before killing it, is it "evil" or merely doing what cats are programmed to do?  Can you honestly say that any animal's actions whether it is your dog peeing on a rug or even that chimp who ate a woman;s face off, had a MORAL dimension?  That is, was good o ...

If it was necessary, then why is it a sin.  We were created, a tree with the knowledge of morality was placed in the garden, and we were forbidden to know that.  Why tempt us? Why give us free will if you know that what will happen will be the eating of fruit from said tree? Why punish them and all who descended from them for gaining that knowledge, if you claimed it to be necessary?


Depends how you define sin and punishment.   You could say it was "original sin" merely because it gave us the CAPACITY to sin, which is to say chose to do evil and then the "punishment" then is not so much the wrath of god but the burden of that responsibility , that once we start on the path to taking our moral judgments for ourselves there is no going back, and it is a heavy burden, and one that has caused great pain and suffering for us as a race, but also all the works of mankind, all out art our science etc.   TO me its the metaphor for humans taking the first steps on the long road to becoming the inheritors of Creation, sentient being with near godlike abilities to understand and manipulate creation.
 
2014-03-24 03:49:40 PM

Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.


No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?
 
2014-03-24 03:50:22 PM

Ant: allylloyd: Since I'm not an atheist, I can't speak for atheists. However, I am a Christian, so when I hear a Christian say something ignorant, two thoughts come to mind:
1) They have a different interpretation of Scripture than I do or
2) They are just really ignorant.

How do you know their interpretation isn't the correct one?


Where do I use the word CORRECT? I didn't. I said DIFFERENT interpretation. I will know which one was correct after I talk with God.
 
2014-03-24 03:50:37 PM

Cheron: The lake of fire is only the half of it.  You are force by all sorts of demon to do acts of perversion. Think about clouds and harps or acts of perversion; no brainer


Which is why a lot of the perverts are Christians. They do it now, say, "I believe in Jesus" the moment they kick the bucket and then go to the clouds and harps, never ever having the chance to do perverted things again.

Heaven for climate, hell for society
                                 - Mark Twain
 
2014-03-24 03:50:44 PM

Ghastly: CanisNoir: mattharvest: i.e. whether he simply re-organized a pre-existing creation (this is related to the concepts in gnosticism). If Yahweh just re-organized creation, then Yahweh itself is a very different being than if it truly Created the universe.

Didn't the Gnostics believe that Yahweh was the result of a "mistake" or maybe I'm confusing that with Gnostic Christianity that believed Yahweh was a mistake and "evil" God while the God that gave us Jesus was the "loving God".

I'm not as familiar with super early Judiasm as I am with super early Christianity.

The Marcionists, the followers of Marcion of Sinope (Marcion sounds just like the little green men, which is really cool in my books) believed that Yhwh or Yaltaboath as they called him was a cruel and insane creator god who basically created the Universe so he could create people and then be a cruel dick to them for his own jollies.

The God Above Gods, The Alien God, The God Unknown,  Monad eventually got pretty sick of Yaltaboath bringing a lot of negative vibes around the place so he sent Jesus to earth to tell people "You know, if you stop worshipping that Yaltaboath asshole you can just hook up directly with Monad who will take you to heaven and get you away from that prick".

When people refer to the Gnostics with a capital G they're usually referring to Greek Gnostics but there were a whole shiatload of Gnostic sects. Basically the Gnostic sects believe you will know god not through the writings of man which will always be corrupted by men but through direct and personal revelation from god. Thus what one Gnostic sect believed was not what another Gnostic sect would believe.



www.animated-gifs.eu
 
2014-03-24 03:51:18 PM

Rueened: You're not very good at this, are you?


Oh look, we have a Pedantic Sematicist on our hands.
 
2014-03-24 03:54:02 PM
UncomfortableSilence: So your not religious, then why biatch about atheists?  Ah, so you're a troll.  Good to know I can ignore you.

Why bother asking questions when you *think* you know the answers? Does it amuse you?
 
2014-03-24 03:54:11 PM
Let's look at it this way:

If you believe in the Judeo-Christian religion anymore, you are enabling a patriarchal conservative ideology.

Depends on whether you're cool with that.

No, Christians aren't liberals. Unless you consider a Blue Dog Democrat a liberal.
 
2014-03-24 03:54:25 PM

CorruptDB: JackieRabbit: It amazes me that so-calld Christians know nothing about the basic tenants of their own religion. Did no one ever tell them that Jesus supposedly came to deliver God's new covenant with Man: that the vengeful God had seen the error of his ways and that the new relationship would replace vengeance with unconditional love?

Matthew 5:17-18: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

So it's a new convenant for things we want to do (eat pork, wear fabric blends, cut our sideburns, etc.) but still the old law for things that make us feel icky (like gay marriage).  Gotcha.  So why does an omnipotent, omniscient being even need to make a new deal (and sacrifice Himself to Himself)?  Since he knows everything, wouldn't he know the old deal wouldn't work when he was making it?

Was not appearing before any humans part of the new deal?  It seems like in the OT God was all over the place - ordering people to sacrifice their children, making bets with Satan, killing firstborn infants, etc.  These days we are lucky if he sends a pic of the chick he knocked up (no, they weren't married - she was married to another guy but he was apparently OK with it) on a tortilla or a freeway overpass.  Why the big change in character in such a short time?


I was not trying to imply that the made-up religion of Christianity was logical or rational. It is supposed to be a religion of peace and love. But unfortunately, it never has been.
 
2014-03-24 03:54:31 PM

Astorix: [img.fark.net image 473x720]


You should reread that story. You've misunderstood it.

// it's similar to why we get pissed off that True Conservatives who Hate Food Stamps have themselves used food stamps
 
2014-03-24 03:54:34 PM

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?


You have a fun family! Party at Gecko's house!
 
2014-03-24 03:54:38 PM

Rueened: UncomfortableSilence: Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.

Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

So long as Christians demand that their belief in creationism, of which no real scientific evidence can be provided, be taught along science in classes.  You are trying to force things on us.

I'm neither Christian nor creationist. Try again.

So long as Christians demand that an entire minority population should not have equal rights because of your  faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I'm not Christian, and support equal rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to make it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not she has a child because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I don't have any faith, and I support reproductive rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to prevent birth control from being provided in the insurance you provide as an employer or in insurance policies in general because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

Nope, still not religious, and I support universal access to contraception.

You're not very good at this, are you?


I am religious and I agree with you on every point.


//I have faith that people will register and vote in November!
 
2014-03-24 03:54:41 PM

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?


None of those things are my concern, really. Why are you asking me?
 
2014-03-24 03:54:43 PM

allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.


That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.
 
2014-03-24 03:55:19 PM
Whenever I see Bill Maher on TV, I am immediately reminded of this:

img2.wikia.nocookie.net

"Republicans are so stupid."
- "AAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!"
"I hate republicans."
- "WOOOOOOOOOH!"
 
2014-03-24 03:56:08 PM

eraser8: allylloyd: Sorry, but I'm not going to change my response to suit you.

I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.

Either you have a reason for believing in a particular god or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one god from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible gods to those that are currently worshiped, there are, at least, hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

Not everybody has a logical reason for believing in a god.  I can accept that...and, I suspect you fall into that category.

Whatever you choose to believe doesn't offend me.  I only asked the question because I was interested in the answer.  Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.


My guess that most people's would go like this:


1) Deference to authority - parents, priest, particularly when indoctrinated from childhood
2) Apophenia - I prayed and shortly after a good thing happened, the next day I didn't pray and a bad thing happened, therefore someone must be answering my prayers
 3) Gambler's Fallacy - I have already invested lots of time/effort into believing X, so it must be true, otherwise I am an idiot
 
2014-03-24 03:57:04 PM

GameSprocket: You have a fun family! Party at Gecko's house!


BYOB and S.

Rueened: None of those things are my concern, really. Why are you asking me?


Because you made the assertion that religion is not being forced up [me].
 
2014-03-24 03:57:49 PM

Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?

None of those things are my concern, really. Why are you asking me?


Why do free-thinking people rustle your jimmies so much?
 
2014-03-24 03:58:09 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Actually, I think my vision of Hell is the same as an athiest's vision of death. Nothing.


You mean exactly how it was before we were conceived? I don't remember it being too bad.
 
2014-03-24 03:58:40 PM

forever_blowing_bubbles: So you're saying God is just like an IT manager?


Sorta. He built the infrastructure and how it works together, but beyond the  nuts and bolts of keeping everything moving, I doubt he gets into the content of the packets, so to speak. Assuming he exists.
 
2014-03-24 03:59:01 PM

NightOwl2255: [i939.photobucket.com image 524x255]


img.fark.net
 
2014-03-24 03:59:38 PM

whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."


How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.
 
2014-03-24 03:59:39 PM

Ed Grubermann: allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.


Logically, though, how would you even know until it happens?
 
2014-03-24 04:00:10 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Egoy3k: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Yes, either that or it acknowledges that gods are created by humans.  Putting it into context with the story of the golden calf it seems pretty obvious that those guys were pretty ready to invent themselves a god.

The thing I find odd about that commandment is that the "no other god's  before me" seems to imply that other gods are just fine, so long as Yahweh is at the top of the pantheon. I have heard that there is evidence that Judaism started out as polytheistic, so maybe this is a holdover from that period and represents a transition to eventual monotheism as future generations interpreted that commandment more strictly.

Or maybe the context is more obvious in the original Hebrew and it really does mean, "no other gods, period".

/Shrug


From what I remember, they weren't so much polytheistic as henotheistic. They worshiped one god, but acknowledged many. A quick google shows turns up this. So you're not alone in your thinking.
 
2014-03-24 04:00:52 PM

genner: DROxINxTHExWIND: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.


I think its a too way street. For every, "you'll burn in Hell" guy out there, there is a "what kind of stupid farking moron believes in GOD" guy.


/Both are assholes, IMHO

Obligatory

[imgs.xkcd.com image 373x330]


What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" thinks they sound like
You poor silly people arguing over stuff you can't prove. If only you were as enlightened and as open minded as me, you'd see how foolish you are. I hope you'll bring it up to my level, for your sake.

What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" sound like to to anyone who has studied religion.
I am completely unfamiliar with even the most basic of theological terms but I'm a contrarian with a superiority complex so I'll just make up my own definitions for words then apply them to everyone else in ways that make me look superior and them inferior.

A person who is a gnostic is one who <i>knows</i> god(s) exist. The root is the greek word "gnosis" which means knowledge.
A person who is agnostic is one who does not <i>know</i> if god exists. It's translates literally as "without knowledge".

A person who is a theist is one who believes in god(s). The root is from the greek word "theos" which means god.
A person who has no belief in god(s) is an atheist. It literally translates as "without god".

If you believe you can prove god(s) exist then your beliefs are apodeictic. This is from the greek verb
apodeiknunai  which means "to demonstrate".
If you believe you cannot prove god(s) exist then your beliefs are nonapodeictic.

So a person who does not know if god(s) exist, does not believe it can be proven god(s) exist, but does not believe in god(s) is a nonapodeictic, agnostic atheist.

A person who does not know if god(s) exist, does not believe it can be proven god(s) exist, but still has a belief that god(s) exist is an nonapodeictic, agnostic theist.

A person who believes that we can't know anything about god period and that since we can't know anything about it all beliefs and ensuing discussion of those beliefs are a waste of time is an apatheist. Basically it's "I don't know, and I can't even know what I don't know so why the fark bother with it at all".

Most Capital-Letter-A Agnostics fall into one of those categories.
 
2014-03-24 04:01:10 PM

Magorn: UncomfortableSilence: Magorn:

Recognizing that we are arguing over the truths hidden in a creation story of a 6000 year old nomadic culture, I have always interpreted the Adam and Eve story thusly:  it is a metaphor for the moments humans gained sentience and self-awareness.   The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gives it away to me.  Can you ascribe "morality" to the actions of an animal except as an anthropomorphic delusion?  When a cat toys with its prey before killing it, is it "evil" or merely doing what cats are programmed to do?  Can you honestly say that any animal's actions whether it is your dog peeing on a rug or even that chimp who ate a woman;s face off, had a MORAL dimension?  That is, was good o ...

If it was necessary, then why is it a sin.  We were created, a tree with the knowledge of morality was placed in the garden, and we were forbidden to know that.  Why tempt us? Why give us free will if you know that what will happen will be the eating of fruit from said tree? Why punish them and all who descended from them for gaining that knowledge, if you claimed it to be necessary?

Depends how you define sin and punishment.   You could say it was "original sin" merely because it gave us the CAPACITY to sin, which is to say chose to do evil and then the "punishment" then is not so much the wrath of god but the burden of that responsibility , that once we start on the path to taking our moral judgments for ourselves there is no going back, and it is a heavy burden, and one that has caused great pain and suffering for us as a race, but also all the works of mankind, all out art our science etc.   TO me its the metaphor for humans taking the first steps on the long road to becoming the inheritors of Creation, sentient being with near godlike abilities to understand and manipulate creation.


Reasonable argument.
 
2014-03-24 04:01:50 PM

Magorn: Egoy3k: Magorn: Just as a computer  cannot truly produce a random number, I do not believe the universe can either.

I'm not trying to call you out or be a prick I have an honest question;

Would you say that this belief means that the universe is determinant in nature? In other words since you don't believe in randomness that all actions are predetermined and that free will is an illusion?

If so how do you reconcile a determinant universe with an all powerful god?  If God is predestined to do something, knows what his actions are going to be, and has the power to do anything he likes could God change his mind?

Well if you believe that god is outside of space time , yes he could change the universe according to his desires.  Would he?  I cannot presume to pronounce on something so far beyond my understanding.   As to the free will question, it is a difficult one and one i have never worked out a satisfactory answer to.  I first wrestled with it all the way back during my confirmation days (12-13) and made the mistake of engaging my instructor, an Irish Jesuit on this very question.  His answer was that free will is absolute, and in all things we have a true and meaningful choice, but the omniscience of God makes him also a perfect judge of human nature, so he knows what choice we will make before we make it. (and since he was a Jesuit, he further postulated that God alone could know the speed AND position of any particle)

Not sure that works for me entirely, but it is AN answer anyway


Thanks. It's a pretty hard question to answer and ascribing omnipotence to God causes a paradox that in my opinion cannot be fully reconciled unless you posit either a second actor who is unknowable to god (so basically an Atreides) or that god does not know himself but that just makes god the single source of randomness in the universe which is pretty much just using a different word for  nature. Like Is aid that is just like, my opinion, man. I don't believe in God so my views on the metaphysics of gods are neither important nor are they based on particularly deep thought.

/If we speak softly we may not wake him
 
2014-03-24 04:02:28 PM

Gecko Gingrich: Because you made the assertion that religion is not being forced up [me].


In fact, he stated "no-one is forcing anything on you".

It would seem that Rueened believes himself to be omniscient. Perhaps this is the alt of God! Who else could possibly know that absolutely "no-one" is trying to force "anything" on you?

Well, I am convinced. Guess I need to go repress some gays.
 
2014-03-24 04:02:48 PM

allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.


You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.
 
2014-03-24 04:04:20 PM

Rueened: I'm neither Christian nor creationist. Try again.

So long as Christians demand that an entire minority population should not have equal rights because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I'm not Christian, and support equal rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to make it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not she has a child because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I don't have any faith, and I support reproductive rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to prevent birth control from being provided in the insurance you provide as an employer or in insurance policies in general because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

Nope, still not religious, and I support universal access to contraception.

You're not very good at this, are you?



The point wasn't to refute your beliefs, it was to refute your statement that Christianity isn't forced on anyone in this country (implying that we shouldn't be so upset about it).
 
2014-03-24 04:05:01 PM

Ed Grubermann: allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.


I beg to differ! I had a partial left temporal lobectomy! Part of my brain is gone! I also have a benign brain tumor.
I am very much alive.
 
2014-03-24 04:05:58 PM

eraser8: GnomePaladin: No Such Agency: The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator.

My lower back feels looser just reading that stretch.  Thanks!

It's actually not a terrible argument.  But, it's flawed.

There seems to be an implicit assumption that everything that exists was created.


It's a by-product of been obligate tool users: because we create things for a purpose, we assume that all things were created for a purpose. It's hard for some of us to understand that most of the universe came about through mindless, purposeless processes. Hell, even when we try to describe these processes we use loaded language that makes them sound directed and purposeful.
 
2014-03-24 04:06:07 PM

Astorix: Valiente: You know what God doesn't like? Ham.

You know what he does? Foreskins.

That'll do, Pig, that'll do.

[img.fark.net image 473x720]


this is why i find it amusing when christians or jews make fun of scientologists.
 
2014-03-24 04:06:31 PM

Ghastly: What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" thinks they sound like
You poor silly people arguing over stuff you can't prove. If only you were as enlightened and as open minded as me, you'd see how foolish you are. I hope you'll bring it up to my level, for your sake.

What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" sound like to to anyone who has studied religion.
I am completely unfamiliar with even the most basic of theological terms but I'm a contrarian with a superiority complex so I'll just make up my own definitions for words then apply them to everyone else in ways that make me look superior and them inferior.


I think they have a right to take that position. Sure it sounds smug and disrespectful, but for centuries religion has not only been an unquestionable paradigm, but even questioning it has brought severe punishment and hardship for those who dared.

It's no different today. I mean hell, you have to be a CHRISTIAN to be President of this country.

Get over it.
 
2014-03-24 04:06:44 PM

Facetious_Speciest: eraser8

Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.

I think they are. Atheists have no reason to believe in the existence of deities. Theists either have a personal reason that's not demonstrable to others, or they're assuming existence on faith. The latter are hard to deal with, bu the former (those who have had what they consider to be a divine experience, broadly speaking) should be easy to deal with, as (unless they take their experience to mean more than it was) they have no reason to expect other people to believe what they believe.


I'm not asking whether atheists and religionists can peacefully coexist. I have no doubt that they can...even if it's the case, in many parts of the world, that a rapprochement hasn't been reached (I'm looking at you, Middle East -- and at you, Lower Alabama).

My current thinking is that the difficulty of religionists to understand atheists and the difficulty of atheists to understand religionists stems from a basic difference in the assumptions each one brings to his analysis of reality.  Of course, it's difficult to get many people to admit they start with assumptions in the first place, so that makes it even tougher to sort out.  So, I'm actually pretty pessimistic about whether the views can be bridged.
 
2014-03-24 04:07:04 PM
Sadly, politics is where religion is often "forced" upon American society.  The biggest one right now?  There are politicians who claim climate change can't exist because God gave man dominion over the Earth and promised not to kill everyone again like in the Flood, therefore it's impossible for man to be destroying the Earth.
 
2014-03-24 04:08:50 PM

Trivia Jockey: Sadly, politics is where religion is often "forced" upon American society.  The biggest one right now?  There are politicians who claim climate change can't exist because God gave man dominion over the Earth and promised not to kill everyone again like in the Flood, therefore it's impossible for man to be destroying the Earth.


Pretty sure that without politics, there are still way way too many churches in the small town I live. It's everywhere whether I want it or not.
 
2014-03-24 04:09:19 PM

allylloyd: You don't have to believe in God for God to believe in you.


Is anyone else as tired as I am of the "reasonable" christians who come to Fark to lecture everyone and post limp doggerel while imagining it to be profound?
 
2014-03-24 04:09:32 PM

whidbey: Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?

None of those things are my concern, really. Why are you asking me?

Why do free-thinking people rustle your jimmies so much?


Apart from their smugness, arrogance, narrow-mindedness and intolerance...?

Oh, nothing I can put my finger on really.
 
2014-03-24 04:10:37 PM

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: You're not very good at this, are you?

Oh look, we have a Pedantic Sematicist on our hands.


*runs off to wash hands*


no no no no no no no no
 
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