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(The Raw Story)   Creationist Ken Ham says that "God is a God of grace and mercy" and will demonstrate this by roasting Bill Maher in a "lake which burns with fire and brimstone" for eternity   (rawstory.com) divider line 515
    More: Amusing, Ken Ham, Bill Maher, Bill Nye, the Science Guy, roasts, mercy, PZ Myers, righteousness, lakes  
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6836 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2014 at 1:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-24 03:10:41 PM  

allylloyd: TomD9938: allylloyd: /Where you confirmed in the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church?

Lutheran, actually.  The chill Minnesota kind.


Any altar boy duties?


I may have lit a candle or two.  They rotated the 8th and 9th graders that were in confirmation for those duties IIRC.

Pastor Bob was a married father of two, retired stock broker and former boxer / Marine, so there was no funny business either.

Lutheran!!! Get back to church, one of your pastors is a tattooed lady!!!


//Nadia Bolz-Webber


As it happens, our Pastor Bob's assistant pastor, who was far more active in our confirmation classes than Bob, was a more or less 'out' lesbian (this was early 80s to early 90s).

She was pretty good too.
 
2014-03-24 03:11:46 PM  

safetycap: allylloyd: eraser8: I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?

And my Weeners is "Why not?" My believe in God (includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is because I have faith. I don't need to physically touch, hear or see God to believe in God.

You didn't answer the question. "I have faith" is  HOW you believe in god not why.

Why don't you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns? You don't need to physically touch, hear or see them in order to believe in them. They also have stories written about them in books. So why YHWH instead of FSM/PU?



I'll answer for allylloydallylloyd believes in God because it makes life easier to cope with.  It's that simple.  For religious people it's not a matter of what's real or not it's a matter of what they have to tell themselves everyday in order to live their life.
 
2014-03-24 03:12:11 PM  

Dr Dreidel: eraser8: I'll try you...I've asked this question a couple of times already. I'm really interested in your answer:

If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?

I'll tell you why I don't begrudge others their faith, if that helps. Bear in mind, I spent 15 years in day schools, plus one in seminary, so I've had some time to think The Question over (so much so that I stopped entirely).

I think it was Will Rogers who said "When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on." That knot is "god" (for certain conceptions of the deity) - when you just can't even anymore, and you're about to lose your shiat, and nothing will ever be good or happy or right with your world ever again, you know that there is that backstop.

An ex-gf who had been hospitalized for mental health problems found this conception to be accurate for her experience - where she literally promised god (and her parents) that she'd hang on for "5 more minutes" every 5 minutes.

// everyone sees their deity differently, even within the same sect


Thanks for the response.    From my perspective, that's a view of a god that seems like a lucky rabbit's foot...although I'm sure it seems like a perfectly valid reason who believe it. People take comfort and reassurance in all sorts of things.  After all, Homer bought that rock because he was convinced it could keep tigers at bay.

I guessing I'm looking for a particular subset of religionists: those who think that their god hypothesis is the best explanation for the existence of humanity, and, well, existence.
 
2014-03-24 03:12:41 PM  

Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.


Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.
 
2014-03-24 03:13:25 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.

I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.


My son and I talk about the omnicient and omnipresent aspect of God. That means he literally knows all, past and future, nothing happens without him knowing, right? So why didn't he simply prevent the serpent from entering the garden? That would mean the whole original sin thing was a set up and that god is a giant douche.
 
2014-03-24 03:13:48 PM  

Mirrorz: We Answers Find in Our Genesis. Don't dead. Open Inside.

[i.imgur.com image 640x480]


hey look it's a bunch of abused children standing with their abuser.
 
2014-03-24 03:14:34 PM  

ciberido: Nabb1: What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.

Yeah, I was thinking, one the one hand, Maher is a pretty big asshole.  On the other had, so far as I know he doesn't chortle at the thought of the people who disagree with him roasting in a pit of hellfire for all eternity.  So, he's got that going for him, anyway, which is nice.


Maher is definitely an asshole.

However

1) He wasn't an asshole in this particular instance
2) Ken Ham is an asshole raised to the asshole power. Every time I hear or see his name, I  wish upon him the fate of Kent Hovind, only including a good shanking or two
 
2014-03-24 03:14:39 PM  

Mugato: eraser8: If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?

Because people are afraid of mortality. That's really the only reason to worship God. I mean why else? As for the Noah story, from a screenwriting standpoint, it's the most ridiculous story in the Bible.


More than Onan pulling out because the kid wouldn't be his?
 
2014-03-24 03:16:00 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: eraser8: DROxINxTHExWIND: The tipping point for organized religion (not the existence of GOD)...

I'll try you...I've asked this question a couple of times already.  I'm really interested in your answer:

If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?

As, I noted in my earlier question, I've been thinking a lot lately about how religionists view the world and how atheists view the world -- and, whether the gap between those views can ever be bridged.


You know, I'll answer as honestly as I can...it's probably indoctrination, mixed with a little bit of "better to believe than to go to Hell" in the back of my mind. I've sat and pondered it myself. I have had life experiences where I felt that I was being protected. I fell into a coma when I was 6 months old and if not for a bunch of amazing circumstances, like my aunt just randomly deciding she wanted to visit me at my grandmother's house during her lunch break, only to find me in my crib having breathing problems, I would not be here. I've been shot at, been in major car accidents, and a lot of other shiat that I can't get into here. Was it all a coincidence that I made it through? Why was I worth saving? I don't know. But, it helps me to think that there is some order to life .I don't know how I would react upon realizing that after this, there is nothing. I've had too many people die around me to believe that the end of their life was just...the end. More than anything else, I think that belief in GOD is a coping mechanism. I'm hopeful this isn't all there is.


Thanks for answering that so eloquently. No snark at all. Good job, and I'm sure many other people feel the same way you do. Life is hard, and there are a lot of questions that we can't answer. It's easier to cope with those knowing something or someone is there helping you along the way. That's why I don't get upset at people who are religious and use it to better themselves. The ones who use it to pursue their own agendas by preying on that fragility on the other hand...
 
2014-03-24 03:16:08 PM  

formerfloozy: That would mean the whole original sin thing was a set up and that god is a giant douche.


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

-- Rand Paul
 
2014-03-24 03:16:14 PM  

Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.


Ken has three Gods.  Didn't you know?
 
2014-03-24 03:16:18 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.



I think its a too way street. For every, "you'll burn in Hell" guy out there, there is a "what kind of stupid farking moron believes in GOD" guy.


/Both are assholes, IMHO
 
2014-03-24 03:16:31 PM  

allylloyd: Catholics are Christians. And they don't pray to saints! They ask saints (and other people) to speak to God on their behalf. They aren't asking the saint to solve the problem. They are asking the saint help them get their message to God.


And some of the point of the Golden Calf story (and also Commandment #2) is that no intermediaries are ever needed, lest those become the objects of worship instead of the deity they represent.
 (I'm not arguing against your point or supporting it, just clarifying.)


// this is also the reason y'all really need to stop adding "in Jesus' name we pray" to supposedly "non-denominational" prayers
 
2014-03-24 03:18:14 PM  

formerfloozy: UncomfortableSilence: NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.

I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.

My son and I talk about the omnicient and omnipresent aspect of God. That means he literally knows all, past and future, nothing happens without him knowing, right? So why didn't he simply prevent the serpent from entering the garden? That would mean the whole original sin thing was a set up and that god is a giant douche.


The entire Old testament is basically the novel form of the next jackass movie with God playing Johnny Knoxville.

"Sacrifice your son to me!"
"Um OK, do I have to?"
"YES"
"alright, here goes..."
"Ha Ha just kidding, I just wanted to see if you would actually do it.  Hey Michael, get a load of this guy, he was going to kill his son just because I told him to. Oh stop crying you baby I stopped you in time."
 
2014-03-24 03:18:23 PM  

CanisNoir: mattharvest: i.e. whether he simply re-organized a pre-existing creation (this is related to the concepts in gnosticism). If Yahweh just re-organized creation, then Yahweh itself is a very different being than if it truly Created the universe.

Didn't the Gnostics believe that Yahweh was the result of a "mistake" or maybe I'm confusing that with Gnostic Christianity that believed Yahweh was a mistake and "evil" God while the God that gave us Jesus was the "loving God".

I'm not as familiar with super early Judiasm as I am with super early Christianity.


The Marcionists, the followers of Marcion of Sinope (Marcion sounds just like the little green men, which is really cool in my books) believed that Yhwh or Yaltaboath as they called him was a cruel and insane creator god who basically created the Universe so he could create people and then be a cruel dick to them for his own jollies.

The God Above Gods, The Alien God, The God Unknown,  Monad eventually got pretty sick of Yaltaboath bringing a lot of negative vibes around the place so he sent Jesus to earth to tell people "You know, if you stop worshipping that Yaltaboath asshole you can just hook up directly with Monad who will take you to heaven and get you away from that prick".

When people refer to the Gnostics with a capital G they're usually referring to Greek Gnostics but there were a whole shiatload of Gnostic sects. Basically the Gnostic sects believe you will know god not through the writings of man which will always be corrupted by men but through direct and personal revelation from god. Thus what one Gnostic sect believed was not what another Gnostic sect would believe.
 
2014-03-24 03:18:44 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.


I think its a too way street. For every, "you'll burn in Hell" guy out there, there is a "what kind of stupid farking moron believes in GOD" guy.


/Both are assholes, IMHO


Obligatory

imgs.xkcd.com
 
2014-03-24 03:19:23 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: You know, I'll answer as honestly as I can...it's probably indoctrination, mixed with a little bit of "better to believe than to go to Hell" in the back of my mind. I've sat and pondered it myself.


I can buy the indoctrination part.  That seems quite common.

As for your "better to believe that go to Hell," you've probably been told (or, I hope you have been) how flawed that reasoning is.  It's just not logically coherent.  Don't misunderstand; the fact that Pascal's Wager (your argument is named that after its most notable proponent, Blaise Pascal) is logically incoherent doesn't mean your god doesn't exist...but, the argument itself really can be thrown out as bad thinking.
 
2014-03-24 03:20:22 PM  

allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?


I see it like this - there are insufferable folk in both camps, but at least atheists "beliefs" are based on logical principals derived through the scientific method, tested and re-tested to the point of exceptionally high confidence.  The beliefs of literalist Christians are absurd by any metric.  They're in a minority though.  The large proportion of Christians do not believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago or that fossils are a trick by the devil.  I am often frustrated, though, by how often and how easily religious rhetoric and mindset retards our forward progress as a species.
 
2014-03-24 03:20:52 PM  

allylloyd: jigger: allylloyd: CHRISTIANS DO NOT PRAY TO SAINTS

No, but Catholics do.

Catholics are Christians. And they don't pray to saints! They ask saints (and other people) to speak to God on their behalf. They aren't asking the saint to solve the problem. They are asking the saint help them get their message to God.


//Case in point, Roger Staubach's Hail Mary pass. It wasn't praying TO Mary. He was praying that Mary would help him get his message to God. They need a touchdown to win the game.


Catholics venerate saints. Or that's at least how they refer to it.

To me it struck me as praying to, especailly when the nuns would start a prayer off and specifically say "let's pray to St John"  and the classrooms and churches were filled with graven images.
 
2014-03-24 03:22:25 PM  

Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.


Stay classy Christians. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about abortion, homosexuality, and women's rights.

See, when Christians stop trying to force me through LEGAL means to accept their beliefs and turn my beloved country into a biblical theocracy, I will stop giving a shiat.
 
2014-03-24 03:23:14 PM  

data195: allylloyd: TomD9938: allylloyd: I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian)

That's sort of like saying Lou Gehrig didnt die of Lou Gehrig's Disease

Have you ever read The Acts of the Apostles? It was never their intention to start a new religious faith, but rather tell other people about the lessons they learned from Jesus Christ (a teacher--a Jewish rabbi). This changed when Paul (Saul in Acts) started teaching because his focus was no longer Jewish traditions and laws, but rather the teachings of Jesus Christ.

//Also, Paul changed how he gave his message depending on the people he was talking to...

Wouldn't the title best be applied as the Acts of the Holy Spirit rather than the Apostles?  The Apostles were just the vessels used in this book and it was the Holy Spirit who was the dominant Figure.


The Holy Spirit first "appears" in the Old Testament. When you are baptized, you are blessed with the Holy Spirit. How you use this blessing is up to you. So no, it wasn't the acts of the Holy Spirit, but rather the Acts of the Apostles (who had been blessed by the Holy Spirit).
 
2014-03-24 03:23:19 PM  

eraser8: Magorn: The ONLY conception of hell I can even vaguely accept, as a Christian, is CS Lewis' idea.

In the hopes that you're a real, live Christian, I have to ask (I asked another Farker the same question...but, got no response):

WHY do you believe in a god?

As, I noted in my earlier question, I've been thinking a lot lately about how religionists view the world and how atheists view the world -- and, whether the gap between those views can ever be bridged.


Deep question with many branching possible answers.
We'll start with the obvious:

A behaviorist  would say that I believe in god because I was raised to and have never broken my operant conditioning

A sociologist would say it's because I was raised in a society where the vast majority of people do in some for or another

An Nuerobiologist would say it's because human intelligence evolved to seek patterns in random events and it is therefore easily deluded into seeing order and intent where none exists.

An atheist might merely pronounce me superstitious and deluded, emotionally immature and needing a crutch to face the great void of non-existence and the terror of the grave.


But that's all a dodge, because you asked me why *I* believe in God.  And to that I might say for the same reason I believe in your existence.   I have no direct evidence, but your post provides at least some indirect evidence that you exist, if not any precise clues about your nature.

In my own life I have seen/felt similar evidence of His/Her/It's existence.  I have, at the risk of being branded delusional or grandiose, felt God's presence more than once in a situation and even  been "spoken" to by him.  Which is to say  that I have sometimes felt that a presence beyond myself was advising me, aiding me, or  asking me to do something.   These messages were so markedly different from my own internal monologue that  as objectively as I am capable of being for  such a thing ,  feel as though they could not have arisen from me alone.  They were also always benevolent, and correct, and sometimes prevented great harm I could not have otherwise foreseen or allowed me to do something very good for anther person.   The origin of those messages I call God.  Since I was raised Roman Catholic, I also find it useful to broadly accept tier framework on the nature of God, rather than start my own from scratch, but where dogma offends my moral sensibilities or conscience, I reject the pre-packaged theology  in favor of my internal moral compass.

Please understand That I completely accept all of modern science as true, and I see absolutely no conflict with my faith in doing so.  Yes the entire universe came from one infinitely small  pinprick of subatomic matter and exploded 16 billion years ago into the known universe, Yes the interactions of those particles shaped our physical laws, and the layout of the galaxies, the formations of suns, planets, etc, and yes mutations of DNA starting with individual proteins led to all the incredible diversity of life on earth.   Where I part ways with a non-believer would be in the notion that it was all random.   Just as a computer  cannot truly produce a random number, I do not believe the universe can either..  The God I believe in exists outside of space and time as we understand them, and it is my belief that the moment of the explosion of the Big Bang was arranged by him to produce all the results of it we see today.  Results which he foresaw and intended,  for his own ineffable reasons, and that in human terms he is generally benevolent and concerned with us both individually and on a cosmic scale.
 
2014-03-24 03:24:20 PM  

The Flexecutioner: this helps quell my rage when I hear about this guy. i sometimes combine it with 2 deep breaths, in through the nose, out through the mouth. it's sublime hilarity calms me.


I usually just sit back and take solace in that I'm not that guy.
 
2014-03-24 03:24:32 PM  

formerfloozy: UncomfortableSilence: NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.

I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.

My son and I talk about the omnicient and omnipresent aspect of God. That means he literally knows all, past and future, nothing happens without him knowing, right? So why didn't he simply prevent the serpent from entering the garden? That would mean the whole original sin thing was a set up and that god is a giant douche.


Why'd he even create the tree?  Simply to throw temptation into the garden. " I've created this tree, don't eat the fruit from it,  or else you will be cast out."
 
2014-03-24 03:24:59 PM  

fruitloop: ...the bible says...the bible says...the bible says...

My book says Zeus created the world.  We both can't be right.


Too lazy to post the JPG, but "Yahweh promised to redeem evil people, Odin promised to destroy the frost giants.  I don't see any frost giants around."
 
2014-03-24 03:24:59 PM  

NightOwl2255: [i939.photobucket.com image 524x255]


Somehow, the treatment rape victims receive in certain Middle Eastern countries makes a lot more sense after reading that.
 
2014-03-24 03:28:20 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.


Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.
 
Ant
2014-03-24 03:28:28 PM  

allylloyd: Since I'm not an atheist, I can't speak for atheists. However, I am a Christian, so when I hear a Christian say something ignorant, two thoughts come to mind:
1) They have a different interpretation of Scripture than I do or
2) They are just really ignorant.


How do you know their interpretation isn't the correct one?
 
2014-03-24 03:28:48 PM  
Meh - it's just something religious people say when they're mad at somebody, and can't do anything about it.
Probably makes them feel better.
i don't think it's anything to get worked up about, and I don't get offended by it.
I can sympathize - it's frustrating to be pissed at somebody, and you can't do anything about it - they're bigger, or richer, or smarter, or prettier, and you can't get at them.
It would be a good feel to be able to believe you are going to get even with them in the great beyond.
 
2014-03-24 03:30:09 PM  
My God is all about love ...
img.fark.net
 
2014-03-24 03:30:27 PM  

eraser8: DROxINxTHExWIND: You know, I'll answer as honestly as I can...it's probably indoctrination, mixed with a little bit of "better to believe than to go to Hell" in the back of my mind. I've sat and pondered it myself.

I can buy the indoctrination part.  That seems quite common.

As for your "better to believe that go to Hell," you've probably been told (or, I hope you have been) how flawed that reasoning is.  It's just not logically coherent.  Don't misunderstand; the fact that Pascal's Wager (your argument is named that after its most notable proponent, Blaise Pascal) is logically incoherent doesn't mean your god doesn't exist...but, the argument itself really can be thrown out as bad thinking.



No, I definitely get that. Lol. I watch the Science Channel. They talk about the Earth's core a lot, but they never mentioned seeing anything resembling a goat-man when they send a remote camera down into a volcano. I think your problem is trying to attack the logic behind religion when religious people have already dismissed the need for tangible evidence of a Creator by saying that you just need faith. You're going to have a hard time convincing people that something most of us don't take literally is false because for most, their idea of Heaven, Hell, and GOD is personal. I imagine that there are things that I can't imagine. My vision of Hell is not neccesarily a burning place below the surface of the ground. Actually, I think my vision of Hell is the same as an athiest's vision of death. Nothing.
 
2014-03-24 03:31:14 PM  

Magorn: Just as a computer  cannot truly produce a random number, I do not believe the universe can either.


I'm not trying to call you out or be a prick I have an honest question;

Would you say that this belief means that the universe is determinant in nature? In other words since you don't believe in randomness that all actions are predetermined and that free will is an illusion?

If so how do you reconcile a determinant universe with an all powerful god?  If God is predestined to do something, knows what his actions are going to be, and has the power to do anything he likes could God change his mind?
 
2014-03-24 03:31:18 PM  

allylloyd: Sorry, but I'm not going to change my response to suit you.


I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.

Either you have a reason for believing in a particular god or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one god from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible gods to those that are currently worshiped, there are, at least, hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

Not everybody has a logical reason for believing in a god.  I can accept that...and, I suspect you fall into that category.

Whatever you choose to believe doesn't offend me.  I only asked the question because I was interested in the answer.  Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.
 
2014-03-24 03:32:43 PM  

CorruptDB: So it's a new convenant for things we want to do (eat pork, wear fabric blends, cut our sideburns, etc.) but still the old law for things that make us feel icky (like gay marriage). Gotcha. So why does an omnipotent, omniscient being even need to make a new deal (and sacrifice Himself to Himself)? Since he knows everything, wouldn't he know the old deal wouldn't work when he was making it?


You do realize that Matthew was a Jew who's audience was Jews, unlike some of the other Gospels who's audience were gentiles? It was in the interest of the author of Mattew to reprsent Christ as the epitome of Jewishness and as far as the Gospels go, it's the one where Christ appears to be the most "Jewish".

/Have to keep these things in context.
 
2014-03-24 03:32:54 PM  
"... a loving god who will set you on fire if you don't love him back"

I absolutely love this line.
 
2014-03-24 03:33:23 PM  
Why not believe the Demon-Sultan Azathoth? After all, Azathoth doesn't need you to believe in It in order for It not to believe in you.
 
2014-03-24 03:34:32 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.

I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.


Recognizing that we are arguing over the truths hidden in a creation story of a 6000 year old nomadic culture, I have always interpreted the Adam and Eve story thusly:  it is a metaphor for the moments humans gained sentience and self-awareness.   The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gives it away to me.  Can you ascribe "morality" to the actions of an animal except as an anthropomorphic delusion?  When a cat toys with its prey before killing it, is it "evil" or merely doing what cats are programmed to do?  Can you honestly say that any animal's actions whether it is your dog peeing on a rug or even that chimp who ate a woman;s face off, had a MORAL dimension?  That is, was good or evil, from the animal's perspective?

Humans alone have that intellectual capacity, so humans alone have the burden of acting contrary to their instincts to effectuate the greater good.  The expulsion from Eden was a loss of innocence, as an intelligent being can no longer live in the eternal "now' obeying nothing more than their instincts.   Instead they must thing and plan and create according to their own judgment, and worry about the future constantly.  The key to the eden story to me is that the snake did not lie,    We DID become like god, in that we now ere self-aware too (and in my theology thereby gained a soul).  We gained the capacity to do incredible good, or evil, and the choice was on our shoulders.   Old Catholic theology gets this, old hymns refer to the incident as " O happy fault. O NECESSARY Sin of Adam"
 
2014-03-24 03:35:00 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: formerfloozy: UncomfortableSilence: NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.

I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.

My son and I talk about the omnicient and omnipresent aspect of God. That means he literally knows all, past and future, nothing happens without him knowing, right? So why didn't he simply prevent the serpent from entering the garden? That would mean the whole original sin thing was a set up and that god is a giant douche.

Why'd he even create the tree?  Simply to throw temptation into the garden. " I've created this tree, don't eat the fruit from it,  or else you will be cast out."


No, he said "in that day that eat from it, you will die." So now he is an asshole AND a liar.
 
2014-03-24 03:36:23 PM  

extroverted_suicide: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

I see it like this - there are insufferable folk in both camps, but at least atheists "beliefs" are based on logical principals derived through the scientific method, tested and re-tested to the point of exceptionally high confidence.  The beliefs of literalist Christians are absurd by any metric.  They're in a minority though.  The large proportion of Christians do not believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago or that fossils are a trick by the devil.  I am often frustrated, though, by how often and how easily religious rhetoric and mindset retards our forward progress as a species.


^This X1000
 
2014-03-24 03:36:30 PM  

Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.

Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.


So long as Christians demand that their belief in creationism, of which no real scientific evidence can be provided, be taught along science in classes.  You are trying to force things on us.

So long as Christians demand that an entire minority population should not have equal rights because of your  faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

So long as you try to make it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not she has a child because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

So long as you try to prevent birth control from being provided in the insurance you provide as an employer or in insurance policies in general because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.
 
2014-03-24 03:36:41 PM  

Magorn: Please understand That I completely accept all of modern science as true, and I see absolutely no conflict with my faith in doing so.


That's very Catholic of you (and, by that, I mean of the Roman Church).  Thanks for the answer.
 
2014-03-24 03:37:02 PM  
I wish we could say we're going to look back on this and laugh, but this shiat ain't going away.

It's getting worse.
 
2014-03-24 03:37:33 PM  

vudukungfu: Facetious_Speciest: By nature, Christians are psychotically arrogant. It's the entire basis of their religion.
Farked in the head. They hear voices, and should not have access to weapons.

Period.
Also, they need to STFU around anyone while out in public.

Religion is like a gun or a dick.
Ok to have one.
Ok to be proud of it.
Not Ok to wave it around in public, or ram it down kids throats.

If your farking religion is so farking true, then you don't have to "Indoctrinate" children with it, they will discover it as true on their own.
Of course, if your religion is full of shait and made up fairy tales, and circular logic, then perhaps they won't bite, and "indoctrinating" them is your only hope of keeping a following.
Assholes.

Look

chief, if I don't indoctrinate my kids my way, some Farker like you indoctrinates them YOUR way. F that noise. I don't need YOU indoctrinating my kids so piss off. I will indoctinate my kids with whatever crazy stuff I feel like. It's called diversity, deal with it.
 
2014-03-24 03:38:14 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Look, I don't know what's so hard to understand here. God snaps his fingers and wills two full-grown adults into existence, but does a shiat job on their programming gets pissed off and visits terrible vengeance upon them, then later gets pissed off again and drowns everyone, and then he's still pissed about a rule he made up so he "sacrifices" (in that he dies, but he comes back a few days later, so it's not really a sacrifice) himself to himself in order to change that rule, and then because he's come off as such an asshole  in the story, in the sequel to the Old Testament they completely retcon him as happy loving funtime god, and the point here is that he loves you and sacrifices for you and wants to give you good things, but if you don't toe the line, he's gonna torture you forever and ever. So shape up and fly right. God loves you, but sometimes, baby, you just make him so mad.


So you're saying God is just like an IT manager?
 
2014-03-24 03:40:39 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: "better to believe than to go to Hell"


Pascal's Wager made a little sense in a Europe that had only one religion. But in a global world filled with myriad faiths, it falls apart. I've never had any inclination to believe in the supernatural, but if I were trying to hedge my bets on immortality, which religion should I pick to believe in?

/Hell director- I'm afraid it was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer.
 
2014-03-24 03:40:44 PM  
So of all the murderers, child rapists, and other assorted monsters in the human race, the #1 spot on God's shiat list is...Bill farking Mahr??
 
2014-03-24 03:41:13 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: Why'd he even create the tree? Simply to throw temptation into the garden. " I've created this tree, don't eat the fruit from it, or else you will be cast out."


What if Adam and Even had Obeyed God?
 
2014-03-24 03:41:16 PM  
eraser8

Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.

I think they are. Atheists have no reason to believe in the existence of deities. Theists either have a personal reason that's not demonstrable to others, or they're assuming existence on faith. The latter are hard to deal with, bu the former (those who have had what they consider to be a divine experience, broadly speaking) should be easy to deal with, as (unless they take their experience to mean more than it was) they have no reason to expect other people to believe what they believe.

More concretely, I've had what I consider to be divine interaction. To me, this suggests the possibility of the existence of other divinities, but I can't prove anything to anyone, so I don't expect them to care. It's like telling someone, "in my experience, Person X gives great head." You haven't had that particular experience, so why would I expect you to believe it? It would be silly. I can't expect you to change your own life based on my experiences (or lack thereof), any more than you can the opposite. Best we just concentrate on what we can agree on out of reason, like "hey, killing people without reason is a dick move," rather than arguing "hey, the god of avocados that you've never met DEMANDS YOUR COMPLIANCE!"
 
2014-03-24 03:41:24 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.

Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

So long as Christians demand that their belief in creationism, of which no real scientific evidence can be provided, be taught along science in classes.  You are trying to force things on us.


I'm neither Christian nor creationist. Try again.

So long as Christians demand that an entire minority population should not have equal rights because of your  faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I'm not Christian, and support equal rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to make it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not she has a child because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I don't have any faith, and I support reproductive rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to prevent birth control from being provided in the insurance you provide as an employer or in insurance policies in general because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

Nope, still not religious, and I support universal access to contraception.

You're not very good at this, are you?
 
2014-03-24 03:42:19 PM  

eraser8: allylloyd: Sorry, but I'm not going to change my response to suit you.

I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.

Either you have a reason for believing in a particular god or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one god from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible gods to those that are currently worshiped, there are, at least, hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

Not everybody has a logical reason for believing in a god.  I can accept that...and, I suspect you fall into that category.

Whatever you choose to believe doesn't offend me.  I only asked the question because I was interested in the answer.  Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.


I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

//At no point in my life have I ever been told: I must believe in God, I better believe in God or I should believe in God.
//I was raised in (and still a member of) a church that follows what's known as the Three Legged Stool 1)Scripture, 2) Tradition (Baptism/Eucharist) and 3) Reason (ask questions, never stop asking questions)
 
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