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(The Raw Story)   Creationist Ken Ham says that "God is a God of grace and mercy" and will demonstrate this by roasting Bill Maher in a "lake which burns with fire and brimstone" for eternity   (rawstory.com) divider line 515
    More: Amusing, Ken Ham, Bill Maher, Bill Nye, the Science Guy, roasts, mercy, PZ Myers, righteousness, lakes  
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6786 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2014 at 1:01 PM (18 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-24 02:07:57 PM

mayIFark: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Is son of God not a God? If it is, you got 2 right there.


...and Englishmen, next best thing.

/obscure?
 
2014-03-24 02:08:12 PM
These media circlejerks can get incredibly tedious incredibly quickly.

Canned Ham vs. Grilled Marlin would make for more compelling mutual masturdebation.
 
2014-03-24 02:08:33 PM

allylloyd: susler: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

The Christians b/c they will condemn you and they won't leave you a tip after church if they suspect you don't believe the same thing as they.

So all Christians act the same way? Funny, someone forgot to tell some of us...

//Do not judge lest you be judged yourself, for the methods you use to judge your neighbor will be the same methods used to judge you.
//So I can assume that from your posting that all atheists are unfriendly? Or that you are just an unfriendly atheist?



that's odd, since you posed the initial post,  "whose stereotypes are worse..."  So I responded dealing with stereotypes and you came back with:  So all Christians act the same way? Funny, someone forgot to tell some of us...do you not know what a stereotype means, is that why you posed the initial query?  Or is your head just stuck up your ass.
 
2014-03-24 02:08:41 PM

gshepnyc: Nabb1: What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.

Yeah, Maher is the asshole for pointing out what utterly, categorically evil things suddenly become holy and wonderful if you convince yourself that God wills them.  The character of God in the bible would not be admirable were he your next door neighbor, and yet billions of people put his alleged demands and desires ahead of the peace and happiness of their actual neighbor. It's good to have that drilled into people as often as possible. Religion deserves to be mocked and I'm glad we live in a time period when religions' ability to set themselves in a position immune to mockery is at an end.


Oh sir, we are far from that day. Only until recently have atheist even grabbed a foothold. Remember, we are still in the age of "its intolerant to refute my intolerance" where religions are trying to still ban gay marriage and the equal rights of those citizens. In an age where religious people are at an all time high, where "my religious beliefs are reason enough to refuse service to those I don't agree with". No, we are far from that reality. Generations in fact.
 
2014-03-24 02:09:12 PM

LazyMedia: gilgigamesh: Bill Maher is blaming God for death because he does not want to accept that he is a sinner in need of salvation. He wants to be his own god - he shakes his fist at the God who created man and also provides the gift of salvation for those who will receive it.

Why is it so hard for these Ken Ham types to accept at face value that some people just don't believe in God?

I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.

Certain fundies (and Ken Ham seems to be one of them) believe that humans exist ONLY as a reflection of God, and that there are no human acts that do not affect their relationship with the Creator. So even if Bill Maher doesn't believe in God, God believes in him and Maher's denial is a de facto act of defiance.


Act of defiance toward God not Ken Ham. Ken really has no dog in this fight. Unless, he believes that God needs someone to have 'his/her/it's' back. If so, the whole all powerful bit goes out the window.

The ironic thing is Ken would be the first one sayin 'mind yo business' if caught cheating on his partner. It'd be between him and his partner. Sadly he again wouldn't understand the parallel
 
2014-03-24 02:10:50 PM

TomD9938: Maybe during confirmation 30 years ago. My Sundays have been free since then.


My parents used to drop my brother and I off at church every Sunday. We would immediately walk a block away to my Sister's house where we would watch the Playboy channel. (My sister and brother-in-law ran a restaurant and were not around Sunday mornings).

I can honestly say I felt the spirit.
 
2014-03-24 02:11:04 PM
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-03-24 02:11:37 PM

Facetious_Speciest: "Hell" is a Christian corruption of a Germanic concept mixed with a misunderstanding of Hebrew folklore (much like most of Christianity).


Sort of like being on holiday with a bunch of Germans.

/hopefully not obscure
 
2014-03-24 02:11:37 PM
Premise 1: God is perfect
Premise 2: Nothing God makes is imperfect because he is perfect.
Premise 3: Man, and thus I, was created by God's perfect will.

Conclusion: Stop trying to improve on perfection.
 
2014-03-24 02:14:20 PM

TV's Vinnie: Simply saying that "2+2=4" is seen as "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.


To some extent yeah, but someone like Jon Stewart for instance really only goes after isolated issues/instances. And, no matter how ZING! his point(s) might be, he delivers it in such a way that seems gentle.

Maher though basically looks for any excuse go into overdrive and essentially insult someone's politik. I think it can be funny (albeit often toxic if taken seriously as "debate"), but I can certainly see where Righty McRepub over there can fly off the handle at his mere presence.
 
2014-03-24 02:14:46 PM

Facetious_Speciest: Technically, hell is a Germanic concept.


That figures.
 
2014-03-24 02:15:05 PM
Christianity, and relaly religion in general, makes a lot more sense if you, instead of crafting an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god, allow for a fallable god that maybe loves all of humanity and even created the universe but now no longer has the ability to intervene in our lives, or doesn't know when we need intervention. Much more in like with the Greek and Roman gods or something. A really nice guy with some cool powers, but he can't be everywhere at once helping everyone all the time.

Eternal punishment in hell still seems problematic for an all loving god of course, so he either needs to be all loving and hell doesn't exist (or maybe it exists but he never sends anyone there... but then why create it at all?) or he's not all loving.

But I just don't understand how you can have a logically consistent god who knows everything, has the power to do anything, and loves his creation, and yet allows us to suffer. Actually, maybe the only way I could ever envision that scenario is that god "doesn't care" about us in this life, in the sense that, we all get to go to heaven when we die and heaven is so infinitely awesome and eternal that any kind of finite suffering in this life is utterly meaningless. Still makes one wonder why we were even created in the first place then of course.

So, in short, seems like we have to accept that god is either limited, or invoke some hand wavey "the lord works in mysterious ways" answer. At least the idea of a limited god can get interesting and neat and make for some fun mythology stories centuries later.
 
2014-03-24 02:15:24 PM
You know why con men prey overwhelmingly on the religious?

They've already demonstrated their gullibility.
 
2014-03-24 02:15:29 PM

No Such Agency: The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator.


My lower back feels looser just reading that stretch.  Thanks!
 
2014-03-24 02:16:07 PM

formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb


I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.
 
2014-03-24 02:17:52 PM

LazyMedia: Yeah, it's pretty clear that the Hebrew God BECAME a single God (Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, etc.) Not so clear or apparent that he started out that way. Like Allah, best evidence is that Yahweh was a minor god who got called up to the big leagues, and later his followers claimed that he INVENTED baseball. The reason he got so mad about the Hebrews worshipping Baal, etc., was that they were the competition.


The way I had it explained to me is a bit tricky. As pointed out, the Hebrew word used ("elohim") refers both to "gods" (nonspecific, plural) and to "God" (proper noun), so the verse in question could read several different ways depending on the context you want to see.

The only way it makes sense taken as a tenet of the faith we now know as Judaism is that there are other "powers" recognized in The Bible that seem to work against God's plan - the Egyptian magicians, Balaam's conversation with his donkey, Moses' father-in-law Jethro (I forget if this is extratextual or not, but supposedly Ol' Jeth was a non-Jewish priest who had "powers"), and several others - and that even they fall under God's purview.

There's an obvious question in Exodus - why would the Hebrews, who had supposedly just witnessed the miracles of the splitting of the sea and manna and such, build a Golden Calf a month after God specifically told them not to? Because they thought they had "lost" their intermediary to God, Moses (who failed to reappear after his 40-day exile up the mountain), and so they "built" themselves another one, as they felt no person could compare with Moe.

The lesson in all this is that you don't need an intermediary to pray to God - not a saint, not Mother Mary, not her favorite son, not a Golden Calf, nor a golden radio, the reason being that the intermediary will draw focus away from the intended object of worship. (Apparently, the ancients knew more about cargo-cult mentality than modern Republicans.)
 
2014-03-24 02:18:56 PM

rjakobi: Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.

It's much easier to rationalize than the concept that every person gets to go to heaven irregardless of their actions. It establishes the idea of responsibility for one's actions.

And the fun thing about heaven and hell is that it isn't a democratic process of who goes where. That is, in essence, out of human jurisdiction. Remember that next time you wish someone to go to hell.


Essentially, the bolded bit is the exact position of the Universalist Church (eventually Unitarian) in the 19th century- "You're all saved and there's not a damn thing you can do about it."
 
2014-03-24 02:19:26 PM

TV's Vinnie: Simply saying that "2+2=4" is seen as "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.


Thus you show that a fish doesn't know it's wet.
 
2014-03-24 02:19:49 PM
TomD9938

That figures.

But to be fair, Germanic hel is just a place your average person goes. It's not tortuous or anything. In contrast, Christian hell is all torture, all the time.
 
2014-03-24 02:19:57 PM
Apparently Ken Ham thought George Carlin's bit was a sermon.

"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you!"
 
2014-03-24 02:20:08 PM

snocone: The Christian Taliban is all about peace, love, and forgiveness, an accepting and gracious God of wonder.
amirite?


It certainly seems to bring out the best in people.
 
2014-03-24 02:20:37 PM

Nabb1: What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.


Yeah, I was thinking, one the one hand, Maher is a pretty big asshole.  On the other had, so far as I know he doesn't chortle at the thought of the people who disagree with him roasting in a pit of hellfire for all eternity.  So, he's got that going for him, anyway, which is nice.
 
2014-03-24 02:21:01 PM

GnomePaladin: No Such Agency: The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator.

My lower back feels looser just reading that stretch.  Thanks!


It's actually not a terrible argument.  But, it's flawed.

There seems to be an implicit assumption that everything that exists was created.  But, there is no reason to believe that assumption is true.  And, that's where his logic breaks down.

Also, I'm thinking he was being sarcastic.
 
2014-03-24 02:21:17 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.


The ONLY conception of hell I can even vaguely accept, as a Christian, is CS Lewis' idea.  That hell is a place people send themselves because they are too stubborn, proud, arrogant etc to allow themselves oneness with the creator, and it isn't a BAD place, it's just a nothing place  that is horrible only in contrast with the eternal rapture that is joining with god.   And even then, I really ain't sure I buy it.   Hell has been a more or less universal feature of every region on earth since time immemorial (Even Buddhists got a hell, lots and lots of them in fact)  Which I think says more about human nature than the nature of the almighty, as a method of social control, religion needs a way to get their followers to do things that are contrary to basic human nature, and the threat of dire punishments for all maternity is an effective way to do that.
 
2014-03-24 02:21:30 PM

allylloyd: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Slight misinterpretation.

I'll explain it to you in simple language. Three faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam believe in ONE God (the same God). Judaism and Islam also believe in the Holy Spirit (as described in the Old Testament). Christianity believes in the Trinity (God=Father, God=Son (Jesus) and God= Holy Spirit) who they are equal in their "importance".
When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.

And God said, let us make man in our image.

And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.

Let us go down, and there confound their language.

And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.

Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?

Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. (v.20)
Thou shalt not revile the gods. (v.28)

Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. (v.13)
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. (v.24)
Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. (v.32)
 
2014-03-24 02:22:54 PM
As much as I may think that is too good for him (and would be the only funny thing he has ever been involved with), my opinion doesn't count. Gods decisions are a dictatorship, not a democracy. Why this nudnick thinks his opinion does matter and could be definitive is beyond me. Must be something he read on a 5,000 year old dinosaur bone.
 
2014-03-24 02:23:01 PM

TV's Vinnie: Killer Cars: FlashHarry: maher is supposed to be an asshole; that's his schtick.

True, but Maher especially embodies "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.

Simply saying that "2+2=4" is seen as "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.

(and those few who are smart enough to know 2+2=4 keep their mouths shut lest they be attacked by the rightwing horde of baboons screaming "RINO! RINO!")


Truer words couldn't be spoken. Especially when he tries to talk about the environment. Yikes.
 
2014-03-24 02:23:14 PM
Oh, bill Maher? Meh, I'm OK with this.

/Would also accept the entire Republican party
//And/or Michael Bloomberg.
 
2014-03-24 02:23:56 PM

allylloyd: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Slight misinterpretation.

I'll explain it to you in simple language. Three faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam believe in ONE God (the same God). Judaism and Islam also believe in the Holy Spirit (as described in the Old Testament). Christianity believes in the Trinity (God=Father, God=Son (Jesus) and God= Holy Spirit) who they are equal in their "importance".
When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.


Even in those early times we understood the value of getting a second opinion.
 
2014-03-24 02:24:20 PM

Gecko Gingrich: gilgigamesh: I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

~RAND PAUL!



/ftfy
 
2014-03-24 02:24:35 PM
Clip of Bill Maher making Noah jokes.  I want to believe that the percentage of americans who believe the Noah myth is true is no where near 60%.  I really do.
 
2014-03-24 02:24:39 PM

TomD9938: allylloyd: TomD9938: allylloyd: I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian)

That's sort of like saying Lou Gehrig didnt die of Lou Gehrig's Disease

Have you ever read The Acts of the Apostles?


Maybe during confirmation 30 years ago.  My Sundays have been free since then.


It was never their intention to start a new religious faith, but rather tell other people about the lessons they learned from Jesus Christ (a teacher--a Jewish rabbi).


My point was that Jesus was as likely to have been a Christian as he would have been a Muslim.

Is there a Christian anywhere that doesn't know he was a Jew?


You're kidding right? I've had to explain to Christians what the Holy Eucharist is and what the Last Supper was for?


//Where you confirmed in the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church? Any altar boy duties?
//I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church; I got to be a lay reader. Fr. Samuels made the boys do the altar duties.
 
2014-03-24 02:25:09 PM

eraser8: GnomePaladin: No Such Agency: The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator.

My lower back feels looser just reading that stretch.  Thanks!

It's actually not a terrible argument.  But, it's flawed.

There seems to be an implicit assumption that everything that exists was created.  But, there is no reason to believe that assumption is true.  And, that's where his logic breaks down.

Also, I'm thinking he was being sarcastic.


Me too, I was just struck by the absurdity of the initial statement and it piqued my interest.  I think it is a terrible argument, based on your explanation.  A not-very-subtle moving of the goalposts.
 
2014-03-24 02:25:33 PM

cynicalbastard: Essentially, the bolded bit is the exact position of the Universalist Church (eventually Unitarian) in the 19th century- "You're all saved and there's not a damn thing you can do about it."


The Unitarians were a separate group, rejecting the Trinitarian (God-Father/Son/Holy Spirit) formulation as irrational.  One god is one god, they'd say, and no illogical statement can be truth.  Eventually the two groups realized they had more in common than not (including the rejection of predestinationism and original sin) and formed the UUs.
 
2014-03-24 02:25:51 PM

Cheron: The lake of fire is only the half of it.  You are force by all sorts of demon to do acts of perversion. Think about clouds and harps or acts of perversion; no brainer


Acts of perversion with harps?

www.darkhorizons.com

This one time, in Hell Camp ...
 
2014-03-24 02:25:53 PM

Magorn: The ONLY conception of hell I can even vaguely accept, as a Christian, is CS Lewis' idea.


In the hopes that you're a real, live Christian, I have to ask (I asked another Farker the same question...but, got no response):

WHY do you believe in a god?

As, I noted in my earlier question, I've been thinking a lot lately about how religionists view the world and how atheists view the world -- and, whether the gap between those views can ever be bridged.
 
2014-03-24 02:26:09 PM

NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.


I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.
 
2014-03-24 02:27:14 PM

allylloyd: When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.


So just rename them "Saints" and you get an ironclad loophole.

Checkmate, God!
 
2014-03-24 02:28:22 PM

Magorn: Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.

The ONLY conception of hell I can even vaguely accept, as a Christian, is CS Lewis' idea.  That hell is a place people send themselves because they are too stubborn, proud, arrogant etc to allow themselves oneness with the creator, and it isn't a BAD place, it's just a nothing place  that is horrible only in contrast with the eternal rapture that is joining with god.   And even then, I really ain't sure I buy it.   Hell has been a more or less universal feature of every region on earth since time immemorial (Even Buddhists got a hell, lots and lots of them in fact)  Which I think says more about human nature than the nature of the almighty, as a method of social control, religion needs a way to get their followers to do things that are contrary to basic human nature, and the threat of dire punishments for all maternity is an effective way to do that.


I'm going to have to assume that you meant eternity and not punishment for all mothers.
 
2014-03-24 02:28:27 PM

rebelyell2006: The Flexecutioner: this helps quell my rage when I hear about this guy.  i sometimes combine it with 2 deep breaths, in through the nose, out through the mouth.  it's sublime hilarity calms me.

/its funny cuz it has two syllables

Ham? But where's the pickle?


That's the surprise!
 
2014-03-24 02:28:39 PM

htomc: Rapmaster2000: People were pretty uncreative if the best they could come up with is "lake of fire".

Notice how everything is defined in purely human terms.  Just like heaven supposedly has "streets of gold".  Why in the world would there be any need at all for gold there?  What possible use could it have there, beyond looking somewhat nice?

It's all just humans appealing to other human's prejudices, fears, and desires.



I was raised Baptist. My grandmother was and still is a very influential member of our*** church. I think my problems with organized religion started with Baptist preachers and how they were viewed. When I was a chile, I thought that Pastor Tucker was Jesus' cousin or something. I literally thought that the pastor, not GOD or Jesus, but the pastor had the power to hear prayers. I realized as I got older that my perception of him had been shaped by the adults in the church who sort of treated him as an infalible symbol of GOD. I began to ask questions like, if GOD hears all of us, then why do I need a middle man to send my prayers up? If GOD is omnipresent, then why do I need to go into a specific building to ask for forgiveness or to pray for mercy? The answers that I got about fellowship and being around other godly people always rung hollow. The tipping point for organized religion (not the existence of GOD) was one night when I went to what Baptists call a revival. Its a week worth of guest preachers, hollering, shouting, and singing that we had once or twice every year. It was at a mega church in Largo, MD that was as big as a small neighborhood. During the sermon, the pastor told everyone to pull out their tithing envelopes. Those people who had them (most folks in the very large room) pulled them out. The pastor then instructed everyone to "hold them above your head and waive them at the devil". I sat in this church watching people gleefully waiving envelopes full of their money...and then I noticed the other people, like me, who had no envelope to waive. Most of them just kind of clapped, heads down, not really doing much as the person next to them who did have an envelope danced and sung loudly. Now, as a visitor, no one expected me to have one so it wasn't a problem. But what about these other people. The ones who maybe didn't have enough to give. The ones who just didn't want too. Here they were, being shamed into tithing by being put on public display in front of the other chuch members.
It's possible that I simply misintepreted the preacher's actions or I made something out of nothing to justify not going back to church. But, that moment does stick out to me as the moment when my religion changed. It became more about personal spiritual development than about group acceptance of my beliefs. My grandmother asks me probably once every couple of months when she's going to see me in church.


/I don't know, Grandma. But when I do go, it'll be for you.
//***can I really call it "our" church if I haven't been in over a year?
 
2014-03-24 02:28:50 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Christians find the concept of hell not existing more offensive than god not existing.


Well, YEAH.... if there is no Hell, they're pissed that they spent all this time trying not to covet their neighbor's ass. Or his ox. Or his wife. Or trying to hide the fact that they DO covet his ass. Gigety.
 
2014-03-24 02:29:15 PM

unchellmatt: hopefully not obscure



You silly bunt!
 
2014-03-24 02:29:50 PM

Two16: Gecko Gingrich: gilgigamesh: I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

~RAND PAUL!


/ftfy


Considering the statement was by Stephen Roberts, not Rand Paul (who is a theist)...
 
2014-03-24 02:30:43 PM
Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.
 
2014-03-24 02:30:57 PM

GnomePaladin: eraser8: GnomePaladin: No Such Agency: The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator.

My lower back feels looser just reading that stretch.  Thanks!

It's actually not a terrible argument.  But, it's flawed.

There seems to be an implicit assumption that everything that exists was created.  But, there is no reason to believe that assumption is true.  And, that's where his logic breaks down.

Also, I'm thinking he was being sarcastic.

Me too, I was just struck by the absurdity of the initial statement and it piqued my interest.  I think it is a terrible argument, based on your explanation.  A not-very-subtle moving of the goalposts.


Yeah.  When I said his argument wasn't terrible, what I meant was, if his premise is true, his conclusion follows logically.  Based on empirical evidence, I just don't happen to believe his premise is true.

In other words, any number of arguments can be logically coherent but flat wrong.  Logic can only get you so far.  It requires some basic assumptions.  To find out whether a logical statement is a true statement, you have to test it against the real world.
 
2014-03-24 02:31:32 PM

Facetious_Speciest: Christianity is inherently wacky, so it's not surprising when Christians say wacky things.

I mean, it's a cult based on Jewish beliefs, but they think the Jews...the only source of information regarding the deity they worship...are all wrong. Think about that.

They (if they speak English) call their deity "God," which is somewhat akin to calling your dog "Dog" and getting mad when other people with other dogs don't recognise the primacy of Dog. Hello, your Hebrew god has a name. It's not "God." That's just capitalising a Germanic word (like Dog).

After rejecting the understandings of the deity held by those they nicked the concept of said deity from, they then re-imagined said deity as an super-god, granting him all kinds of special position and powers that are wholly inconsistent with the earlier lore of said god. It's like if a bunch of people adopted Shango and transformed him into the ultimate deity, called him Bob, and told people of African descent that they never really got Shango, because he's Bob, and reasons.

By nature, Christians are psychotically arrogant. It's the entire basis of their religion.



c.editingmyspace.com
 
2014-03-24 02:32:15 PM

TomD9938: allylloyd: I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian)

That's sort of like saying Lou Gehrig didnt die of Lou Gehrig's Disease.


Funny you should mention that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/18/sports/18gehrig.html?pagewanted=all
 
2014-03-24 02:34:30 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: The tipping point for organized religion (not the existence of GOD)...


I'll try you...I've asked this question a couple of times already.  I'm really interested in your answer:

If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?

As, I noted in my earlier question, I've been thinking a lot lately about how religionists view the world and how atheists view the world -- and, whether the gap between those views can ever be bridged.
 
2014-03-24 02:36:23 PM

Two16: Facetious_Speciest: Christianity is inherently wacky, so it's not surprising when Christians say wacky things.

I mean, it's a cult based on Jewish beliefs, but they think the Jews...the only source of information regarding the deity they worship...are all wrong. Think about that.

They (if they speak English) call their deity "God," which is somewhat akin to calling your dog "Dog" and getting mad when other people with other dogs don't recognise the primacy of Dog. Hello, your Hebrew god has a name. It's not "God." That's just capitalising a Germanic word (like Dog).

After rejecting the understandings of the deity held by those they nicked the concept of said deity from, they then re-imagined said deity as an super-god, granting him all kinds of special position and powers that are wholly inconsistent with the earlier lore of said god. It's like if a bunch of people adopted Shango and transformed him into the ultimate deity, called him Bob, and told people of African descent that they never really got Shango, because he's Bob, and reasons.

By nature, Christians are psychotically arrogant. It's the entire basis of their religion.


[c.editingmyspace.com image 396x366]


Well played.
 
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