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(The Raw Story)   Creationist Ken Ham says that "God is a God of grace and mercy" and will demonstrate this by roasting Bill Maher in a "lake which burns with fire and brimstone" for eternity   (rawstory.com ) divider line
    More: Amusing, Ken Ham, Bill Maher, Bill Nye, the Science Guy, roasts, mercy, PZ Myers, righteousness, lakes  
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6890 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2014 at 1:01 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



515 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2014-03-24 11:42:21 AM  
ken ham is psychotic.
 
2014-03-24 11:47:01 AM  
What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.
 
2014-03-24 12:04:19 PM  
The Christian Taliban is all about peace, love, and forgiveness, an accepting and gracious God of wonder.
amirite?
 
2014-03-24 12:06:12 PM  
I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.
 
2014-03-24 12:06:56 PM  

Nabb1: What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.


maher is supposed to be an asshole; that's his schtick.
 
2014-03-24 12:14:49 PM  

Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.


Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?
 
2014-03-24 12:21:04 PM  

NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?


What I like to call a "Target Rich Environment".
 
2014-03-24 12:25:21 PM  

FlashHarry: maher is supposed to be an asshole; that's his schtick.


agreed.

Still would like to take him, Andy Dick and a crazed badger tie them up in a sack and throw them in a river.

Not the most human way to put a crazed animal out how its misery.
 
2014-03-24 12:33:43 PM  
Bill Maher is blaming God for death because he does not want to accept that he is a sinner in need of salvation. He wants to be his own god - he shakes his fist at the God who created man and also provides the gift of salvation for those who will receive it.

Why is it so hard for these Ken Ham types to accept at face value that some people just don't believe in God?

I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.
 
2014-03-24 12:33:54 PM  
People were pretty uncreative if the best they could come up with is "lake of fire".
 
2014-03-24 12:38:45 PM  
Oh Internet, you never disappoint:

iguessimagrownup.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-03-24 12:47:07 PM  
Grace and Mercy for me, but not for thee.

Isn't it great when God hates all the same people you hate?
 
2014-03-24 12:52:55 PM  

gilgigamesh: Bill Maher is blaming God for death because he does not want to accept that he is a sinner in need of salvation. He wants to be his own god - he shakes his fist at the God who created man and also provides the gift of salvation for those who will receive it.

Why is it so hard for these Ken Ham types to accept at face value that some people just don't believe in God?

I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.



My position is that Ham does not believe in any "god", much less his professed "god".
Only himself. Other "concepts" need not apply.
 
2014-03-24 01:02:16 PM  
Well we all knew Maher would burn for eternity after his little 9/11 comment, so this is just re-stating the obvious.
 
2014-03-24 01:03:46 PM  

bluorangefyre: his little 9/11 comment


too soon?
 
2014-03-24 01:03:55 PM  
The whole point of Ken Ham's argument (against Bill Nye) was "Pic or didn't happen".

Now, let's ask him to produce that proof for his claim.
 
2014-03-24 01:04:32 PM  
Jews go to hell? I thought they just went through the cosmic washing machine?
 
2014-03-24 01:04:56 PM  
And they'll know we are Christians by are love doesn't seem to be getting much play anymore.
 
2014-03-24 01:05:09 PM  

NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?


Yes, either that or it acknowledges that gods are created by humans.  Putting it into context with the story of the golden calf it seems pretty obvious that those guys were pretty ready to invent themselves a god.
 
2014-03-24 01:05:18 PM  
Ham ain't kosher. Just saying.
 
2014-03-24 01:05:38 PM  

NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?


Is son of God not a God? If it is, you got 2 right there.
 
2014-03-24 01:06:24 PM  
I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.
 
2014-03-24 01:06:48 PM  
When you are about to die, repenting means nothing.//see you al in hell.
 
2014-03-24 01:07:26 PM  
imageshack.com
"Quiet dignity and grace..."
 
2014-03-24 01:07:38 PM  
Pig Maher trifecta now in play?  Or was that other thread from last night?
 
2014-03-24 01:08:22 PM  
Titus 1:15
 
2014-03-24 01:08:55 PM  
www.markstivers.com
 
2014-03-24 01:09:01 PM  

gilgigamesh: Bill Maher is blaming God for death because he does not want to accept that he is a sinner in need of salvation. He wants to be his own god - he shakes his fist at the God who created man and also provides the gift of salvation for those who will receive it.

Why is it so hard for these Ken Ham types to accept at face value that some people just don't believe in God?

I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.


Certain fundies (and Ken Ham seems to be one of them) believe that humans exist ONLY as a reflection of God, and that there are no human acts that do not affect their relationship with the Creator. So even if Bill Maher doesn't believe in God, God believes in him and Maher's denial is a de facto act of defiance.

/Atheist, but I don't see any reason to proselytize about it. If you don't come to that conclusion yourself, then you're probably better off finding some mythology that suits you.
 
2014-03-24 01:09:01 PM  

snocone: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

What I like to call a "Target Rich Environment".


That stunt gives me a +2 on gun attacks when there are multiple targets in the same zone.
 
2014-03-24 01:10:07 PM  

Egoy3k: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Yes, either that or it acknowledges that gods are created by humans.  Putting it into context with the story of the golden calf it seems pretty obvious that those guys were pretty ready to invent themselves a god.


The thing I find odd about that commandment is that the "no other god's  before me" seems to imply that other gods are just fine, so long as Yahweh is at the top of the pantheon. I have heard that there is evidence that Judaism started out as polytheistic, so maybe this is a holdover from that period and represents a transition to eventual monotheism as future generations interpreted that commandment more strictly.

Or maybe the context is more obvious in the original Hebrew and it really does mean, "no other gods, period".

/Shrug
 
2014-03-24 01:10:19 PM  
My God is an awesome God, who makes awesome sauce.
 
2014-03-24 01:10:19 PM  
"...Ken Ham   to reassure his readers that Maher will get his in the end."

giggity
 
2014-03-24 01:10:44 PM  
media.tumblr.com

this helps quell my rage when I hear about this guy.  i sometimes combine it with 2 deep breaths, in through the nose, out through the mouth.  it's sublime hilarity calms me.

/its funny cuz it has two syllables
 
2014-03-24 01:10:49 PM  
Brimstone? Satan still hasn't updated that lake yet? You can buy fire glass right off Amazon at the very least.

See, this is why the Fallen One doesn't stand a chance of winning the Holy War. He just doesn't know how to modernize. He should talk to Steve Jobs.
 
2014-03-24 01:10:53 PM  
Didn't think it was possible to find a bigger douche than Bill Maher. Impressive.
 
2014-03-24 01:11:24 PM  

Rapmaster2000: People were pretty uncreative if the best they could come up with is "lake of fire".


It would've confused the tribesmen if hell were described as having to sit on a crowded train for eternity, forced to listen to other people's loud personal cell phone conversations.
 
2014-03-24 01:11:36 PM  
Yahweh the war god wants the blood wall wet.
 
2014-03-24 01:12:12 PM  
 
2014-03-24 01:13:21 PM  

gilgigamesh: I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.


I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

~Rand Paul
 
2014-03-24 01:13:31 PM  

gilgigamesh: Why is it so hard for these Ken Ham types to accept at face value that some people just don't believe in God?


Didn't you know that anyone that isn't Christian just needs to be shown the way? At least that's what they tried to tell me in Sunday school... that "we" do our best to convert the nonbelievers so they may know Christ's love... unless they happen to live in a predominately jewish, catholic, hindi or muslim neighborhood. "We" didn't bother them, for some strange reason.

Lately I've been being pestered to donate for a local church's mission to Nicaragua. "No thanks, I don't support religious oppression" is not an answer they're prepared for, I'll tell ya.
 
2014-03-24 01:13:40 PM  
When your god creates an entire planet with his own powers. Then drowns all his creations in a horrible flood. Your god is a four year old with a sadistic streak.
 
2014-03-24 01:13:49 PM  

The Flexecutioner: [media.tumblr.com image 500x282]

this helps quell my rage when I hear about this guy.  i sometimes combine it with 2 deep breaths, in through the nose, out through the mouth.  it's sublime hilarity calms me.

/its funny cuz it has two syllables


i1.ytimg.com

i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2014-03-24 01:14:00 PM  
I've heard this one before.

Roasting in a lake which burns with fire and brimstone is more merciful than blinking you out of existence after you die, because you see, you're still living forever, and who doesn't want to live forever?
 
2014-03-24 01:14:13 PM  
Christianity is inherently wacky, so it's not surprising when Christians say wacky things.

I mean, it's a cult based on Jewish beliefs, but they think the Jews...the only source of information regarding the deity they worship...are all wrong. Think about that.

They (if they speak English) call their deity "God," which is somewhat akin to calling your dog "Dog" and getting mad when other people with other dogs don't recognise the primacy of Dog. Hello, your Hebrew god has a name. It's not "God." That's just capitalising a Germanic word (like Dog).

After rejecting the understandings of the deity held by those they nicked the concept of said deity from, they then re-imagined said deity as an super-god, granting him all kinds of special position and powers that are wholly inconsistent with the earlier lore of said god. It's like if a bunch of people adopted Shango and transformed him into the ultimate deity, called him Bob, and told people of African descent that they never really got Shango, because he's Bob, and reasons.

By nature, Christians are psychotically arrogant. It's the entire basis of their religion.
 
2014-03-24 01:14:30 PM  
So Bill Maher is dead, adios P.O.S.
 
2014-03-24 01:15:29 PM  
Christians find the concept of hell not existing more offensive than god not existing.
 
2014-03-24 01:15:30 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.


It's simply an incentive to obey your Earthly masters.

Don't steal, don't kill, don't screw your neighbors wife, pay your taxes, enjoy eternal life.
 
2014-03-24 01:15:33 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: Rapmaster2000: People were pretty uncreative if the best they could come up with is "lake of fire".

It would've confused the tribesmen if hell were described as having to sit on a crowded train for eternity, forced to listen to other people's loud personal cell phone conversations.


Yep, they worked with what they know. Volcanoes and earthquakes were the bad boys of the day. Our hell will be ice caps melting and beaches flooding.
 
2014-03-24 01:15:34 PM  

Egoy3k: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Yes, either that or it acknowledges that gods are created by humans.  Putting it into context with the story of the golden calf it seems pretty obvious that those guys were pretty ready to invent themselves a god.


The Hebrews weren't monotheistic until late in the game.
 
2014-03-24 01:16:01 PM  

NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?


Slight misinterpretation.

I'll explain it to you in simple language. Three faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam believe in ONE God (the same God). Judaism and Islam also believe in the Holy Spirit (as described in the Old Testament). Christianity believes in the Trinity (God=Father, God=Son (Jesus) and God= Holy Spirit) who they are equal in their "importance".
When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.
 
2014-03-24 01:16:22 PM  
Look, I don't know what's so hard to understand here. God snaps his fingers and wills two full-grown adults into existence, but does a shiat job on their programming gets pissed off and visits terrible vengeance upon them, then later gets pissed off again and drowns everyone, and then he's still pissed about a rule he made up so he "sacrifices" (in that he dies, but he comes back a few days later, so it's not really a sacrifice) himself to himself in order to change that rule, and then because he's come off as such an asshole  in the story, in the sequel to the Old Testament they completely retcon him as happy loving funtime god, and the point here is that he loves you and sacrifices for you and wants to give you good things, but if you don't toe the line, he's gonna torture you forever and ever. So shape up and fly right. God loves you, but sometimes, baby, you just make him so mad.
 
2014-03-24 01:16:29 PM  

The Flexecutioner: this helps quell my rage when I hear about this guy.  i sometimes combine it with 2 deep breaths, in through the nose, out through the mouth.  it's sublime hilarity calms me.

/its funny cuz it has two syllables


Ham? But where's the pickle?
 
2014-03-24 01:16:42 PM  
media.ifunny.com
 
2014-03-24 01:17:33 PM  

meat0918: I've heard this one before.

Roasting in a lake which burns with fire and brimstone is more merciful than blinking you out of existence after you die, because you see, you're still living forever, and who doesn't want to live forever?


Not only that, but pain is an evolved response intended to get you to react to something damaging your body. If you are immortal and the flames really can't physically harm you, does pain even matter?
 
2014-03-24 01:18:37 PM  
After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?
 
2014-03-24 01:19:05 PM  
The lake of fire is only the half of it.  You are force by all sorts of demon to do acts of perversion. Think about clouds and harps or acts of perversion; no brainer
 
2014-03-24 01:19:45 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: By nature, Christians are psychotically arrogant. It's the entire basis of their religion.
Farked in the head. They hear voices, and should not have access to weapons.


Period.
Also, they need to STFU around anyone while out in public.

Religion is like a gun or a dick.
Ok to have one.
Ok to be proud of it.
Not Ok to wave it around in public, or ram it down kids throats.

If your farking religion is so farking true, then you don't have to "Indoctrinate" children with it, they will discover it as true on their own.
Of course, if your religion is full of shait and made up fairy tales, and circular logic, then perhaps they won't bite, and "indoctrinating" them is your only hope of keeping a following.
Assholes.
 
2014-03-24 01:20:53 PM  

ReverendJynxed: beaches flooding.


Uh. We just call that High Tide around here.
 
2014-03-24 01:21:18 PM  

allylloyd: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Slight misinterpretation.

I'll explain it to you in simple language. Three faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam believe in ONE God (the same God). Judaism and Islam also believe in the Holy Spirit (as described in the Old Testament). Christianity believes in the Trinity (God=Father, God=Son (Jesus) and God= Holy Spirit) who they are equal in their "importance".
When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.


Sorry, editing mistake. It should say , "You shall have no other God but me."
 
2014-03-24 01:21:18 PM  

allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?


They're both hilarious, but I'm an Atheist and even I'll admit that Atheists are usually easier to get riled up. I don't get it either. Aren't we supposed to be euphoric? :p
 
2014-03-24 01:22:06 PM  
allylloyd

I'll explain it to you in simple language. Three faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam believe in ONE God (the same God).

They do now. Back in the day, Yahweh was just another son of El in a Semitic pantheon.
 
2014-03-24 01:23:40 PM  

FlashHarry: Nabb1: What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.

maher is supposed to be an asshole; that's his schtick.



Naw, I think he really is an asshole...but it amuses me while it enrages others.
 
2014-03-24 01:24:25 PM  

TomD9938: Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.

It's simply an incentive to obey your Earthly masters.

Don't steal, don't kill, don't screw your neighbors wife, pay your taxes, enjoy eternal life.


So, offer eternal life as the incentive and leave punishment to the secular authorities. Positive reinforcement and all that.

What disturbs me is that so many people honestly believe that the idea of eternal punishment for finite crimes can be morally justified. I don't get that. All I can guess is that most people don't really understand what the "eternal" in eternal punishment really implies.
 
2014-03-24 01:24:45 PM  
If Ken's faith is as strong as he claims, he would wouldn't be phased by comments by secular folk like Maher.

/Or Bill Nye
// Or Neil DeGrasse Tyson
 
2014-03-24 01:24:56 PM  
And did the Lord grin?  And did the people feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats?
 
2014-03-24 01:25:24 PM  

Nabb1: What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.


Yeah, Maher is the asshole for pointing out what utterly, categorically evil things suddenly become holy and wonderful if you convince yourself that God wills them.  The character of God in the bible would not be admirable were he your next door neighbor, and yet billions of people put his alleged demands and desires ahead of the peace and happiness of their actual neighbor. It's good to have that drilled into people as often as possible. Religion deserves to be mocked and I'm glad we live in a time period when religions' ability to set themselves in a position immune to mockery is at an end.
 
2014-03-24 01:25:26 PM  
He's a god of love and mercy, as long as you totally submit to him in every way, do what he wants, and stop thinking for yourself. It's 50 shades of Jehovah.
 
2014-03-24 01:26:02 PM  

Bane of Broone: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

They're both hilarious, but I'm an Atheist and even I'll admit that Atheists are usually easier to get riled up. I don't get it either. Aren't we supposed to be euphoric? :p


Since I'm not an atheist, I can't speak for atheists. However, I am a Christian, so when I hear a Christian say something ignorant, two thoughts come to mind:
1) They have a different interpretation of Scripture than I do or
2) They are just really ignorant.

//Sometimes it's a combination of both.
 
2014-03-24 01:26:12 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I have heard that there is evidence that Judaism started out as polytheistic, so maybe this is a holdover from that period and represents a transition to eventual monotheism as future generations interpreted that commandment more strictly.


Among other things, "Elohim" is a plural name.

The pre-Israelites were of a sort of casual polytheism that has some similarities to Shinto, i.e. the idea that there are spirits  of and  in most (if not all) things.  At a certain point, they started to acrete the idea that certain spirits were so powerful they had, in fact, created or birthed the others.  This inevitably leads to the idea that there is some progenitor, some ultimate sort of all such spirits.  Hence, monotheism.

This idea wasn't even contentious during the time of Ezra (who redacted the Torah).  It was generally understood that there were a great number of spirits other than the Hebrew god.  Theirs was just supposed to be the most powerful.

It's even debateable whether the early Hebrews truly believed that Yahweh really was the 'creator' or whether he just was the 'builder', i.e. whether he simply re-organized a pre-existing creation (this is related to the concepts in gnosticism).  If Yahweh just re-organized creation, then Yahweh itself is a very different being than if it truly Created the universe.
 
2014-03-24 01:26:36 PM  
You know what God doesn't like? Ham.

You know what he does? Foreskins.

That'll do, Pig, that'll do.
 
2014-03-24 01:27:22 PM  
I just don't understand why we keep reporting on grown-ass adults who believe in fairy-tales as if their insane ravings were worthy of consideration.
 
2014-03-24 01:28:18 PM  

allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?


The Christians b/c they will condemn you and they won't leave you a tip after church if they suspect you don't believe the same thing as they.
 
2014-03-24 01:28:58 PM  
At least Bill Maher wont have pineapple rings stuck to him with toothpicks.

/or WILL he?!?!
 
2014-03-24 01:29:08 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Look, I don't know what's so hard to understand here. God snaps his fingers and wills two full-grown adults into existence, but does a shiat job on their programming gets pissed off and visits terrible vengeance upon them, then later gets pissed off again and drowns everyone, and then he's still pissed about a rule he made up so he "sacrifices" (in that he dies, but he comes back a few days later, so it's not really a sacrifice) himself to himself in order to change that rule, and then because he's come off as such an asshole  in the story, in the sequel to the Old Testament they completely retcon him as happy loving funtime god, and the point here is that he loves you and sacrifices for you and wants to give you good things, but if you don't toe the line, he's gonna torture you forever and ever. So shape up and fly right. God loves you, but sometimes, baby, you just make him so mad.


Having Jesus give me the Pimp Hand while he is filling me with the Holy Spirit is my favorite part of submitting to God's Will.
 
2014-03-24 01:29:25 PM  
Verily God must be an insecure wuss to be so threatened by Bill Maher
 
2014-03-24 01:29:48 PM  
...the bible says...the bible says...the bible says...

My book says Zeus created the world.  We both can't be right.
 
2014-03-24 01:30:53 PM  

allylloyd: Slight misinterpretation.


I'm pretty sure Ba'al was mentioned later as another 'competing' god of different peoples.  I believe "Ba'al" generically translates as "Lord", as in Baalzebub = Lord of the Flies.

Obviously the old Testament wasn't written in English, but YHWH describes himself as a 'jealous god'.  The first two Commandments describe this jealousy, especially the first. Is he really going to get jealous of a rock or lump of metal?  If there were no other gods, wouldn't he have just said 'there are no other gods'?  It would be like me describing my wife as my 'favorite' wife.  The language implies there are others.
 
2014-03-24 01:31:02 PM  

gshepnyc: Religion deserves to be mocked and I'm glad we live in a time period when religions' ability to set themselves in a position immune to mockery is at an end.


Depending on where you live and which religion you're mocking, that is.
 
2014-03-24 01:31:11 PM  

susler: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

The Christians b/c they will condemn you and they won't leave you a tip after church if they suspect you don't believe the same thing as they.


So all Christians act the same way? Funny, someone forgot to tell some of us...

//Do not judge lest you be judged yourself, for the methods you use to judge your neighbor will be the same methods used to judge you.
//So I can assume that from your posting that all atheists are unfriendly? Or that you are just an unfriendly atheist?
 
2014-03-24 01:31:13 PM  

susler: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

The Christians b/c they will condemn you and they won't leave you a tip after church if they suspect you don't believe the same thing as they.


...and they only tip the church 10% for the service.
 
2014-03-24 01:31:49 PM  
www.quotespedia.info

Ken Ham is a lying, greedy sack of shiat.
 
2014-03-24 01:33:08 PM  
"It's a Mr. Ham on line 5, calling about creationism."
"OK, give me Ham on 5 and hold the Maher"
 
2014-03-24 01:33:33 PM  

nmrsnr: Oh Internet, you never disappoint:

[iguessimagrownup.files.wordpress.com image 500x245]



It's incredibly sad, but that is how it is... on the internet and IRL.

I can assure you those people are not filled with God's love. If they were to pass Him on the street He'd say, "I don't know you...and stop trying to represent me because you're making a huge mess."
 
2014-03-24 01:33:35 PM  

allylloyd: Bane of Broone: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

They're both hilarious, but I'm an Atheist and even I'll admit that Atheists are usually easier to get riled up. I don't get it either. Aren't we supposed to be euphoric? :p

Since I'm not an atheist, I can't speak for atheists. However, I am a Christian, so when I hear a Christian say something ignorant, two thoughts come to mind:
1) They have a different interpretation of Scripture than I do or
2) They are just really ignorant.

//Sometimes it's a combination of both.


I hear you on that one. My gal is a Christian, but believes in evolution, kindness towards EVERYONE, is pro-choice, fiercely liberal....all that jazz. She doesn't care one bit about contradictions in a book that is thousands of years old. She finds comfort and inspiration in it and uses it to better her own life. So when people come out with "All Christians" or "All religions" stuff it just shows that they are willfully ignorant of people like a drug addict who uses it to stay clean, a person who becomes inspired to be a better, more understanding partner/parent/whatever. I don't care what tools you use to become a better person. "Religion" and "Christianity" are just red herrings (inb4 Clue). Fundies, no matter what side they fall on, are just too lazy to deal with problems on an individual level.
 
2014-03-24 01:34:08 PM  

meat0918: I've heard this one before.

Roasting in a lake which burns with fire and brimstone is more merciful than blinking you out of existence after you die, because you see, you're still living forever, and who doesn't want to live forever?


Well, once your are dead, pain and suffering is just sensory input, it no longer has any useful purpose for warning you that something is wrong, so would it really be all that great a punishment anyway to an immortal being? Don't you just get into "Hellraiser" territory fairly quickly?


I mean it is not as if Heaven is going to be much better - I mean over an infinite time frame that implies you are going to do everything an infinite amount of times, even the good things done forever will presumably get boring, let alone watching every Rob Schneider film an infinite number of times.
 
2014-03-24 01:34:19 PM  

FlashHarry: maher is supposed to be an asshole; that's his schtick.


True, but Maher especially embodies "liberal smugness" to most conservatives. It's not just that he can be a prick, it's the condescending nature in which he delivers his barbs particularly to the religious right that rile them to no end.

I mean, really, NO ONE comes close to consistently capturing the essence of smug, elite liberal like Maher. Of course, Maher isn't liberal on certain issues but it's not like someone foaming at the mouth because he dared to make fun of religion for the umpteenth time during a taping of Real Time is going to pay attention and appreciate nuance or complexity.
 
2014-03-24 01:34:52 PM  
How these "christians" see themselves:
ts3.mm.bing.net

What they are really like:
img123.imageshack.us
 
2014-03-24 01:34:58 PM  
i939.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-24 01:35:52 PM  

China White Tea: I just don't understand why we keep reporting on grown-ass adults who believe in fairy-tales as if their insane ravings were worthy of consideration.


Did you see the other headline linked on that page?  "Anti-gay pastor who prayed for Obama's death demands silence from women in church"

Would Jesus even recognize these assholes?  Disgusting.
 
2014-03-24 01:36:39 PM  
It makes sense that an all-loving, all-powerful god would take offense with people bringing up issues that He created like the age of the Earth, intelligently-designed myopia and homosexual urges so much so that he would lovingly condemn someone's soul to an eternal pit of suffering.
 
2014-03-24 01:36:46 PM  

syrynxx: allylloyd: Slight misinterpretation.

I'm pretty sure Ba'al was mentioned later as another 'competing' god of different peoples.  I believe "Ba'al" generically translates as "Lord", as in Baalzebub = Lord of the Flies.

Obviously the old Testament wasn't written in English, but YHWH describes himself as a 'jealous god'.  The first two Commandments describe this jealousy, especially the first. Is he really going to get jealous of a rock or lump of metal?  If there were no other gods, wouldn't he have just said 'there are no other gods'?  It would be like me describing my wife as my 'favorite' wife.  The language implies there are others.


I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian) interpretation of the Commandments is the best. He said simply there are truly important 1) One God above all others and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself.

//Basically, he knew people were going to argue, however, he did want people to focus on love first.
 
2014-03-24 01:37:20 PM  

Killer Cars: FlashHarry: maher is supposed to be an asshole; that's his schtick.

True, but Maher especially embodies "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.


Simply saying that "2+2=4" is seen as "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.

(and those few who are smart enough to know 2+2=4 keep their mouths shut lest they be attacked by the rightwing horde of baboons screaming "RINO! RINO!")
 
2014-03-24 01:38:00 PM  
syrynxx

I'm pretty sure Ba'al was mentioned later as another 'competing' god of different peoples. I believe "Ba'al" generically translates as "Lord", as in Baalzebub = Lord of the Flies.

Pretty much this. Yahweh was chief god of the Hebrews at some point. Other Semites revered other gods as jefe. They were all part of the same pantheon. It's like some Germans calling Woden "Allfather" biatching at some Swedes who call Ing "Freyr" (which means "lord," much like "Baal"). Different tribes holding different gods of the same pantheon as most important.
 
2014-03-24 01:38:38 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.


It's much easier to rationalize than the concept that every person gets to go to heaven irregardless of their actions. It establishes the idea of responsibility for one's actions.

And the fun thing about heaven and hell is that it isn't a democratic process of who goes where. That is, in essence, out of human jurisdiction. Remember that next time you wish someone to go to hell.
 
2014-03-24 01:39:10 PM  

mayIFark: Is son of God not a God? If it is, you got 2 right there.



So, thou shalt not put myself before myself?
 
2014-03-24 01:39:59 PM  

Bane of Broone: allylloyd: Bane of Broone: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

They're both hilarious, but I'm an Atheist and even I'll admit that Atheists are usually easier to get riled up. I don't get it either. Aren't we supposed to be euphoric? :p

Since I'm not an atheist, I can't speak for atheists. However, I am a Christian, so when I hear a Christian say something ignorant, two thoughts come to mind:
1) They have a different interpretation of Scripture than I do or
2) They are just really ignorant.

//Sometimes it's a combination of both.

I hear you on that one. My gal is a Christian, but believes in evolution, kindness towards EVERYONE, is pro-choice, fiercely liberal....all that jazz. She doesn't care one bit about contradictions in a book that is thousands of years old. She finds comfort and inspiration in it and uses it to better her own life. So when people come out with "All Christians" or "All religions" stuff it just shows that they are willfully ignorant of people like a drug addict who uses it to stay clean, a person who becomes inspired to be a better, more understanding partner/parent/whatever. I don't care what tools you use to become a better person. "Religion" and "Christianity" are just red herrings (inb4 Clue). Fundies, no matter what side they fall on, are just too lazy to deal with problems on an individual level.


Keep your girlfriend.

//If you have kids, baptize them.
// You can use it as a reason why she has to go out on Sunday mornings and you can have the house to yourself.
 
2014-03-24 01:40:37 PM  

allylloyd: I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian)


That's sort of like saying Lou Gehrig didnt die of Lou Gehrig's Disease.
 
2014-03-24 01:40:41 PM  
scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2014-03-24 01:41:20 PM  

Bane of Broone: They're both hilarious, but I'm an Atheist and even I'll admit that Atheists are usually easier to get riled up. I don't get it either. Aren't we supposed to be euphoric? :p


How to rile up a "Christian": Include a menorah in a Holiday display.
How to rile up an atheist: Pass a law outlawing non-"Christian" behavior.
 
2014-03-24 01:41:23 PM  
As H. P. Lovecraft said...

If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences.
 
2014-03-24 01:42:31 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Bane of Broone: They're both hilarious, but I'm an Atheist and even I'll admit that Atheists are usually easier to get riled up. I don't get it either. Aren't we supposed to be euphoric? :p

How to rile up a "Christian": Include a menorah in a Holiday display.
How to rile up an atheist: Pass a law outlawing non-"Christian" behavior. Make a joke about a fedora and/or neckbeard.

 
2014-03-24 01:42:37 PM  

NightOwl2255: [i939.photobucket.com image 524x255]


Favorited.
 
2014-03-24 01:44:05 PM  

allylloyd: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Slight misinterpretation.

I'll explain it to you in simple language. Three faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam believe in ONE God (the same God). Judaism and Islam also believe in the Holy Spirit (as described in the Old Testament). Christianity believes in the Trinity (God=Father, God=Son (Jesus) and God= Holy Spirit) who they are equal in their "importance".
When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.


Yeah, it's pretty clear that the Hebrew God BECAME a single God (Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, etc.) Not so clear or apparent that he started out that way. Like Allah, best evidence is that Yahweh was a minor god who got called up to the big leagues, and later his followers claimed that he INVENTED baseball. The reason he got so mad about the Hebrews worshipping Baal, etc., was that they were the competition.
 
2014-03-24 01:45:47 PM  
His god:
i.chzbgr.com
 
2014-03-24 01:45:50 PM  
i13.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-24 01:46:01 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-03-24 01:46:22 PM  

rjakobi: Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.

It's much easier to rationalize than the concept that every person gets to go to heaven irregardless of their actions. It establishes the idea of responsibility for one's actions.

And the fun thing about heaven and hell is that it isn't a democratic process of who goes where. That is, in essence, out of human jurisdiction. Remember that next time you wish someone to go to hell.


Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...
 
2014-03-24 01:46:40 PM  

allylloyd: Bane of Broone: allylloyd: Bane of Broone: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

They're both hilarious, but I'm an Atheist and even I'll admit that Atheists are usually easier to get riled up. I don't get it either. Aren't we supposed to be euphoric? :p

Since I'm not an atheist, I can't speak for atheists. However, I am a Christian, so when I hear a Christian say something ignorant, two thoughts come to mind:
1) They have a different interpretation of Scripture than I do or
2) They are just really ignorant.

//Sometimes it's a combination of both.

I hear you on that one. My gal is a Christian, but believes in evolution, kindness towards EVERYONE, is pro-choice, fiercely liberal....all that jazz. She doesn't care one bit about contradictions in a book that is thousands of years old. She finds comfort and inspiration in it and uses it to better her own life. So when people come out with "All Christians" or "All religions" stuff it just shows that they are willfully ignorant of people like a drug addict who uses it to stay clean, a person who becomes inspired to be a better, more understanding partner/parent/whatever. I don't care what tools you use to become a better person. "Religion" and "Christianity" are just red herrings (inb4 Clue). Fundies, no matter what side they fall on, are just too lazy to deal with problems on an individual level.

Keep your girlfriend.

//If you have kids, baptize them.
// You can use it as a reason why she has to go out on Sunday mornings and you can have the house to yourself.


No kids unless we adopt later. She's cool with me spending Sundays at home. I'll occasionally go to a service because I enjoy watching the ceremony, pagentry, and customs. I find it genuinely interesting. I'll also lend when doing feedings for the homeless, etc. I just don't advocate the church is all and they are all cool with it.
 
2014-03-24 01:47:04 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: It would've confused the tribesmen if hell were described as having to sit on a crowded train for eternity, forced to listen to other people's loud personal cell phone conversations.


Hell is a Christian concept that came about well after the "tribesmen" died, and iirc the very earliest references to it compared it to the flaming heap of garbage near Jerusalem. (Ghenna)
 
2014-03-24 01:47:08 PM  
The Stealth Hippopotamus: Not the most human way to put a crazed animal out how its misery.

Au contraire.  It is *very* human.  It may or may not be humane.
 
2014-03-24 01:47:17 PM  
i59.tinypic.com
 
2014-03-24 01:47:40 PM  

rjakobi: It's much easier to rationalize than the concept that every person gets to go to heaven irregardless of their actions. It establishes the idea of responsibility for one's actions.


irregardless?
 
2014-03-24 01:47:45 PM  

TomD9938: Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.

It's simply an incentive to obey your Earthly masters.

Don't steal, don't kill, don't screw your neighbors wife, pay your taxes, enjoy eternal life.


But what if my neighbor invites me to screw his wife, and she's down for it too?
 
2014-03-24 01:49:09 PM  
I'd watch this on pay-per-view.
 
2014-03-24 01:49:23 PM  
The Christian god for many.

All knowing and all powerful - Doesn't actually engage with anyone or intervene with anything and is content to let evil happen around the world, even in his name.

Loving and forgiving and above human emotion - but homophobic and jealous, will send you to be tortured forever if you don't believe, believe wrong, or don't believe hard enough.  Also still seems to have a grudge against women who try to be more than an accessory for a man.

Has a plan for everyone and anything - but gives us free will to follow said plan, so when his "plan" results in problems for us we can blame ourselves and not the ever just god.

Also forbid us knowledge and punished us forever for our curiosity with the concept of original sin.  Or rather punished us for refusing to remain ignorant and obedient.
 
2014-03-24 01:49:27 PM  

Bane of Broone: allylloyd: Bane of Broone: allylloyd: Bane of Broone: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

They're both hilarious, but I'm an Atheist and even I'll admit that Atheists are usually easier to get riled up. I don't get it either. Aren't we supposed to be euphoric? :p

Since I'm not an atheist, I can't speak for atheists. However, I am a Christian, so when I hear a Christian say something ignorant, two thoughts come to mind:
1) They have a different interpretation of Scripture than I do or
2) They are just really ignorant.

//Sometimes it's a combination of both.

I hear you on that one. My gal is a Christian, but believes in evolution, kindness towards EVERYONE, is pro-choice, fiercely liberal....all that jazz. She doesn't care one bit about contradictions in a book that is thousands of years old. She finds comfort and inspiration in it and uses it to better her own life. So when people come out with "All Christians" or "All religions" stuff it just shows that they are willfully ignorant of people like a drug addict who uses it to stay clean, a person who becomes inspired to be a better, more understanding partner/parent/whatever. I don't care what tools you use to become a better person. "Religion" and "Christianity" are just red herrings (inb4 Clue). Fundies, no matter what side they fall on, are just too lazy to deal with problems on an individual level.

Keep your girlfriend.

//If you have kids, baptize them.
// You can use it as a reason why she has to go out on Sunday mornings and you can have the house to yourself.

No kids unless we adopt later. She's cool with me spending Sundays at home. I'll occasionally go to a service because I enjoy watching the ceremony, pagentry, and customs. I find it genuinely interesting. I'll also lend a hand when doing feedings for the homeless, etc. I just don't advocate the church is all and they are all cool with it.

 
2014-03-24 01:49:52 PM  
Centralia, Pennsylvania?
 
2014-03-24 01:50:03 PM  

PadreMontoya: [www.markstivers.com image 631x549]

Fire and brimstone lake.



The problem with a metal boat lined with Styrofoam is the metal will eventually reach the temperature of the fire and brimstone lake which will cause the Styrofoam to catch fire.
What you should use in replace of the Styrofoam is refractory ceramic fiber which can withstand up to 1400 deg. C.
 
2014-03-24 01:50:40 PM  

FlashHarry: rjakobi: It's much easier to rationalize than the concept that every person gets to go to heaven irregardless of their actions. It establishes the idea of responsibility for one's actions.

irregardless?


Unindubitably
 
2014-03-24 01:50:41 PM  

Deep Contact: PadreMontoya: [www.markstivers.com image 631x549]

Fire and brimstone lake.


The problem with a metal boat lined with Styrofoam is the metal will eventually reach the temperature of the fire and brimstone lake which will cause the Styrofoam to catch fire.
What you should use in replace of the Styrofoam is refractory ceramic fiber which can withstand up to 1400 deg. C.


or shuttle tiles. though they do tend to fall off.
 
2014-03-24 01:51:05 PM  

RedZoneTuba: "It's a Mr. Ham on line 5, calling about creationism."
"OK, give me Ham on 5 and hold the Maher"


web.mit.edu
 
2014-03-24 01:51:35 PM  

Bane of Broone: allylloyd


I hear you on that one. My gal is a Christian, but believes in evolution, kindness towards EVERYONE, is pro-choice, fiercely liberal....all that jazz. She doesn't care one bit about contradictions in a book that is thousands of years old. She finds comfort and inspiration in it and uses it to better her own life. So when people come out with "All Christians" or "All religions" stuff it just shows that they are willfully ignorant of people like a drug addict who uses it to stay clean, a person who becomes inspired to be a better, more understanding partner/parent/whatever. I don't care what tools you use to become a better person. "Religion" and "Christianity" are just red herrings (inb4 Clue). Fundies, no matter what side they fall on, are just too lazy to deal with problems on an individual level.

Keep your girlfriend.

//If you have kids, baptize them.
// You can use it as a reason why she has to go out on Sunday mornings and you can have the house to yourself.

No kids unless we adopt later. She's cool with me spending Sundays at home. I'll occasionally go to a service because I enjoy watching the ceremony, pagentry, and customs. I find it genuinely interesting. I'll also lend when doing feedings for the homeless, etc. I just don't advocate the church is all and they are all cool with it.



You. I like you. And your girlfriend.

Carry on.
 
2014-03-24 01:51:50 PM  

Nabb1: What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.


I'm not sure I see the logic of this.

What did Maher say that was assholish at all? All he did was point out an obvious contradiction - the "loving and kind god of forgiveness who will torture people for infinity years for basically no good reason, even if they're good people. How a figure which is clearly the most monstrously evil figure ever described by people in history as being touted as some kind of kind and loving figure makes no sense whatsoever.

Ham then, without a hunt of irony or self-awareness, reinforced that contradiction without a moment's thought or hesitation...

And you think Maher is the asshole? What are you smoking today an why aren't you sharing?
 
2014-03-24 01:52:27 PM  

TomD9938: allylloyd: I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian)

That's sort of like saying Lou Gehrig didnt die of Lou Gehrig's Disease


Have you ever read The Acts of the Apostles? It was never their intention to start a new religious faith, but rather tell other people about the lessons they learned from Jesus Christ (a teacher--a Jewish rabbi). This changed when Paul (Saul in Acts) started teaching because his focus was no longer Jewish traditions and laws, but rather the teachings of Jesus Christ.

//Also, Paul changed how he gave his message depending on the people he was talking to...
 
2014-03-24 01:52:30 PM  

allylloyd: rjakobi: Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.

It's much easier to rationalize than the concept that every person gets to go to heaven irregardless of their actions. It establishes the idea of responsibility for one's actions.

And the fun thing about heaven and hell is that it isn't a democratic process of who goes where. That is, in essence, out of human jurisdiction. Remember that next time you wish someone to go to hell.

Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...


Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?
 
2014-03-24 01:53:25 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Look, I don't know what's so hard to understand here. God snaps his fingers and wills two full-grown adults into existence, but does a shiat job on their programming gets pissed off and visits terrible vengeance upon them, then later gets pissed off again and drowns everyone, and then he's still pissed about a rule he made up so he "sacrifices" (in that he dies, but he comes back a few days later, so it's not really a sacrifice) himself to himself in order to change that rule, and then because he's come off as such an asshole  in the story, in the sequel to the Old Testament they completely retcon him as happy loving funtime god, and the point here is that he loves you and sacrifices for you and wants to give you good things, but if you don't toe the line, he's gonna torture you forever and ever. So shape up and fly right. God loves you, but sometimes, baby, you just make him so mad.


*GOLF CLAP*
Well put.
I don't see where all the hate for Bill Maher is coming from... as an atheist I come to see his point of view often. Does he say some inflammatory things about all religion? Yes, but that's what he believes in. If you ever saw his movie Religious you would know why he says some of this stuff. He looks at it from the view that our leaders in political positions, the people who have real power to change the world, are mostly religious and let their religion dictate their decision making, which influences all of us. It's actually quite noble, but nothing he says will ever change the extremely devouts mind of anything. In fact it probably only digs people deeper into said beliefs, which doesn't really help. He speaks to those who tote the fence to look at the topic rationally, which is not possible for most.

With that said, nothing in his diatribe was anything unusual from him. Nor was anything really untrue. Your God, Ken Ham, is not merciful or graceful. Any God that would kill everyone on the planet because he did not like what they were doing is not kind. Any God that holds eternal damnation over your head for sinning or non-believing is not kind. What ever happened to forgiveness that your kind traffics in? Yeah... that's what I thought... Funny how your God only hates those who you hate isn't it?
 
Bf+
2014-03-24 01:53:40 PM  
Did someone say overly attached Jesus?
static.fjcdn.com

31.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-03-24 01:54:18 PM  

Sgt.Zim: TomD9938: Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.

It's simply an incentive to obey your Earthly masters.

Don't steal, don't kill, don't screw your neighbors wife, pay your taxes, enjoy eternal life.


But what if my neighbor invites me to screw his wife...

If her husband is ok with it, it's cool.


...and she's down for it too?

Immaterial.
 
2014-03-24 01:54:22 PM  

Rapmaster2000: People were pretty uncreative if the best they could come up with is "lake of fire".


Notice how everything is defined in purely human terms.  Just like heaven supposedly has "streets of gold".  Why in the world would there be any need at all for gold there?  What possible use could it have there, beyond looking somewhat nice?

It's all just humans appealing to other human's prejudices, fears, and desires.
 
2014-03-24 01:54:31 PM  
Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.
 
2014-03-24 01:55:23 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: gilgigamesh: I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

~Rand Paul


Rand Paul? must be missing that joke or something...
 
2014-03-24 01:55:53 PM  

Bane of Broone: allylloyd: Bane of Broone: allylloyd: Bane of Broone: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

They're both hilarious, but I'm an Atheist and even I'll admit that Atheists are usually easier to get riled up. I don't get it either. Aren't we supposed to be euphoric? :p

Since I'm not an atheist, I can't speak for atheists. However, I am a Christian, so when I hear a Christian say something ignorant, two thoughts come to mind:
1) They have a different interpretation of Scripture than I do or
2) They are just really ignorant.

//Sometimes it's a combination of both.

I hear you on that one. My gal is a Christian, but believes in evolution, kindness towards EVERYONE, is pro-choice, fiercely liberal....all that jazz. She doesn't care one bit about contradictions in a book that is thousands of years old. She finds comfort and inspiration in it and uses it to better her own life. So when people come out with "All Christians" or "All religions" stuff it just shows that they are willfully ignorant of people like a drug addict who uses it to stay clean, a person who becomes inspired to be a better, more understanding partner/parent/whatever. I don't care what tools you use to become a better person. "Religion" and "Christianity" are just red herrings (inb4 Clue). Fundies, no matter what side they fall on, are just too lazy to deal with problems on an individual level.

Keep your girlfriend.

//If you have kids, baptize them.
// You can use it as a reason why she has to go out on Sunday mornings and you can have the house to yourself.

No kids unless we adopt later. She's cool with me spending Sundays at home. I'll occasionally go to a service because I enjoy watching the ceremony, pagentry, and customs. I find it genuinely interesting. I'll also lend when doing feedings for the homeless, etc. I just don't advocate the church is all and they are all cool with it.


Adoption, that's even better.

//Your girlfriend has serious bragging rights.
//Personally question, what church (denomination) do you usually attend?
 
2014-03-24 01:56:54 PM  

FlashHarry: Deep Contact: PadreMontoya: [www.markstivers.com image 631x549]

Fire and brimstone lake.


The problem with a metal boat lined with Styrofoam is the metal will eventually reach the temperature of the fire and brimstone lake which will cause the Styrofoam to catch fire.
What you should use in replace of the Styrofoam is refractory ceramic fiber which can withstand up to 1400 deg. C.

or shuttle tiles. though they do tend to fall off.


I do think we need to get NASA and such involved.  Since most scientists are going to hell (I'm looking at you, Bill Nye and NGT), they should have a vested interested in building hell-proof accessories.

Maybe they'll get right on that after they're done with all this big bang and origin of the universe stuff...
 
2014-03-24 01:57:16 PM  

vudukungfu: Facetious_Speciest: By nature, Christians are psychotically arrogant. It's the entire basis of their religion.
Farked in the head. They hear voices, and should not have access to weapons.

Period.
Also, they need to STFU around anyone while out in public.

Religion is like a gun or a dick.
Ok to have one.
Ok to be proud of it.
Not Ok to wave it around in public, or ram it down kids throats.

If your farking religion is so farking true, then you don't have to "Indoctrinate" children with it, they will discover it as true on their own.
Of course, if your religion is full of shait and made up fairy tales, and circular logic, then perhaps they won't bite, and "indoctrinating" them is your only hope of keeping a following.
Assholes.


You... I like you
 
2014-03-24 01:58:55 PM  

The Flexecutioner: [media.tumblr.com image 500x282]


i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-03-24 01:59:04 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Jews go to hell? I thought they just went through the cosmic washing machine?


Used to.  Then God started losing Jews.  It might have been in the comsic dryer.  God doesn't know and he's omnipotent.  You never lose a pair of Jews always just one.  And it's a good Jew too.  A scientist or a doctor.  Not a real estate speculator or a mall kiosk manager.
 
2014-03-24 01:59:20 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I have heard that there is evidence that Judaism started out as polytheistic


Judaism was a polytheistic religion. During the Babylonian Exile the priest class was exposed to Zoroastrianism and the concept of Monotheism. This got them thinking "maybe the reason our god lets everybody pick on us despite the fact we're supposed to be his chosen ones is because not only are we supposed to have no other gods before him, we're supposed to have no other gods period".

One of the first to get chucked was the goddess Asherah who was essentially god's wife.

There are still odd little polytheistic Jewish cults in the middle east to this very day. Just like there are some really weird ancient Christian cults around the middle east too.
 
2014-03-24 01:59:51 PM  

mattharvest: i.e. whether he simply re-organized a pre-existing creation (this is related to the concepts in gnosticism). If Yahweh just re-organized creation, then Yahweh itself is a very different being than if it truly Created the universe.


Didn't the Gnostics believe that Yahweh was the result of a "mistake" or maybe I'm confusing that with Gnostic Christianity that believed Yahweh was a mistake and "evil" God while the God that gave us Jesus was the "loving God".

I'm not as familiar with super early Judiasm as I am with super early Christianity.
 
2014-03-24 02:00:14 PM  
It amazes me that so-calld Christians know nothing about the basic tenants of their own religion. Did no one ever tell them that Jesus supposedly came to deliver God's new covenant with Man: that the vengeful God had seen the error of his ways and that the new relationship would replace vengeance with unconditional love?
 
2014-03-24 02:00:54 PM  
Bill Maher on fire.  Another promise religion makes that it wont come through on.  Come on guys, I'm ready to believe.  I will even bring the marsh mellows.  But you gotta bring Bill Maher engulfed in flames.
 
2014-03-24 02:01:01 PM  

Ed Grubermann: allylloyd: rjakobi: Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.

It's much easier to rationalize than the concept that every person gets to go to heaven irregardless of their actions. It establishes the idea of responsibility for one's actions.

And the fun thing about heaven and hell is that it isn't a democratic process of who goes where. That is, in essence, out of human jurisdiction. Remember that next time you wish someone to go to hell.

Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?


That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.


//I'm going to Heaven. I have tickets to the Jerry Garcia, Levon Helm and Clarence Clemons concert.
//The music in Heaven is fantastic!
 
2014-03-24 02:01:47 PM  

Bane of Broone: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

They're both hilarious, but I'm an Atheist and even I'll admit that Atheists are usually easier to get riled up. I don't get it either. Aren't we supposed to be euphoric? :p


Is this like the "both sides are bad, so vote republican!" ... because I think we both know who is being disingenuous here.
 
2014-03-24 02:01:54 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Jews go to hell? I thought they just went through the cosmic washing machine?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91DSNL1BEeY

I'm afraid the Jews were right.
 
2014-03-24 02:02:20 PM  

mayIFark: The whole point of Ken Ham's argument (against Bill Nye) was "Pic or didn't happen".

Now, let's ask him to produce that proof for his claim.


The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator. It's just common sense. Thus, Nye has the burden of proving that sharp, serrated theropod teeth were not designed (by an infinitely intelligent god) to chew plants in Eden before the fall.
 
2014-03-24 02:02:39 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.


You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb
 
Bf+
2014-03-24 02:04:27 PM  

formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb


4.bp.blogspot.com
Can't have that...
 
2014-03-24 02:05:03 PM  

allylloyd: That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.


I've been thinking about Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu and the rest and trying to figure out why they believe what they believe.

I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?
 
2014-03-24 02:05:10 PM  

allylloyd: TomD9938: allylloyd: I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian)

That's sort of like saying Lou Gehrig didnt die of Lou Gehrig's Disease


Have you ever read The Acts of the Apostles?


Maybe during confirmation 30 years ago.  My Sundays have been free since then.


It was never their intention to start a new religious faith, but rather tell other people about the lessons they learned from Jesus Christ (a teacher--a Jewish rabbi).


My point was that Jesus was as likely to have been a Christian as he would have been a Muslim.

Is there a Christian anywhere that doesn't know he was a Jew?
 
2014-03-24 02:06:49 PM  
Lord_Baull:

The Aristocrats!
 
2014-03-24 02:07:17 PM  
CanisNoir

Hell is a Christian concept that came about well after the "tribesmen" died, and iirc the very earliest references to it compared it to the flaming heap of garbage near Jerusalem. (Ghenna)

Technically, hell is a Germanic concept.

Jewish sects have held a place compared to the earthly Gehenna as a place of temporary tribulation. English-speaking Christians use the word "hell" because their ancestors used "hel" as a place of the afterlife for the non-awesome for thousands of years.

"Hel" existed before "hell." "Hell" is a Christian corruption of a Germanic concept mixed with a misunderstanding of Hebrew folklore (much like most of Christianity).
 
2014-03-24 02:07:57 PM  

mayIFark: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Is son of God not a God? If it is, you got 2 right there.


...and Englishmen, next best thing.

/obscure?
 
2014-03-24 02:08:12 PM  
These media circlejerks can get incredibly tedious incredibly quickly.

Canned Ham vs. Grilled Marlin would make for more compelling mutual masturdebation.
 
2014-03-24 02:08:33 PM  

allylloyd: susler: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

The Christians b/c they will condemn you and they won't leave you a tip after church if they suspect you don't believe the same thing as they.

So all Christians act the same way? Funny, someone forgot to tell some of us...

//Do not judge lest you be judged yourself, for the methods you use to judge your neighbor will be the same methods used to judge you.
//So I can assume that from your posting that all atheists are unfriendly? Or that you are just an unfriendly atheist?



that's odd, since you posed the initial post,  "whose stereotypes are worse..."  So I responded dealing with stereotypes and you came back with:  So all Christians act the same way? Funny, someone forgot to tell some of us...do you not know what a stereotype means, is that why you posed the initial query?  Or is your head just stuck up your ass.
 
2014-03-24 02:08:41 PM  

gshepnyc: Nabb1: What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.

Yeah, Maher is the asshole for pointing out what utterly, categorically evil things suddenly become holy and wonderful if you convince yourself that God wills them.  The character of God in the bible would not be admirable were he your next door neighbor, and yet billions of people put his alleged demands and desires ahead of the peace and happiness of their actual neighbor. It's good to have that drilled into people as often as possible. Religion deserves to be mocked and I'm glad we live in a time period when religions' ability to set themselves in a position immune to mockery is at an end.


Oh sir, we are far from that day. Only until recently have atheist even grabbed a foothold. Remember, we are still in the age of "its intolerant to refute my intolerance" where religions are trying to still ban gay marriage and the equal rights of those citizens. In an age where religious people are at an all time high, where "my religious beliefs are reason enough to refuse service to those I don't agree with". No, we are far from that reality. Generations in fact.
 
2014-03-24 02:09:12 PM  

LazyMedia: gilgigamesh: Bill Maher is blaming God for death because he does not want to accept that he is a sinner in need of salvation. He wants to be his own god - he shakes his fist at the God who created man and also provides the gift of salvation for those who will receive it.

Why is it so hard for these Ken Ham types to accept at face value that some people just don't believe in God?

I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.

Certain fundies (and Ken Ham seems to be one of them) believe that humans exist ONLY as a reflection of God, and that there are no human acts that do not affect their relationship with the Creator. So even if Bill Maher doesn't believe in God, God believes in him and Maher's denial is a de facto act of defiance.


Act of defiance toward God not Ken Ham. Ken really has no dog in this fight. Unless, he believes that God needs someone to have 'his/her/it's' back. If so, the whole all powerful bit goes out the window.

The ironic thing is Ken would be the first one sayin 'mind yo business' if caught cheating on his partner. It'd be between him and his partner. Sadly he again wouldn't understand the parallel
 
2014-03-24 02:10:50 PM  

TomD9938: Maybe during confirmation 30 years ago. My Sundays have been free since then.


My parents used to drop my brother and I off at church every Sunday. We would immediately walk a block away to my Sister's house where we would watch the Playboy channel. (My sister and brother-in-law ran a restaurant and were not around Sunday mornings).

I can honestly say I felt the spirit.
 
2014-03-24 02:11:04 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-03-24 02:11:37 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: "Hell" is a Christian corruption of a Germanic concept mixed with a misunderstanding of Hebrew folklore (much like most of Christianity).


Sort of like being on holiday with a bunch of Germans.

/hopefully not obscure
 
2014-03-24 02:11:37 PM  
Premise 1: God is perfect
Premise 2: Nothing God makes is imperfect because he is perfect.
Premise 3: Man, and thus I, was created by God's perfect will.

Conclusion: Stop trying to improve on perfection.
 
2014-03-24 02:14:20 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Simply saying that "2+2=4" is seen as "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.


To some extent yeah, but someone like Jon Stewart for instance really only goes after isolated issues/instances. And, no matter how ZING! his point(s) might be, he delivers it in such a way that seems gentle.

Maher though basically looks for any excuse go into overdrive and essentially insult someone's politik. I think it can be funny (albeit often toxic if taken seriously as "debate"), but I can certainly see where Righty McRepub over there can fly off the handle at his mere presence.
 
2014-03-24 02:14:46 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: Technically, hell is a Germanic concept.


That figures.
 
2014-03-24 02:15:05 PM  
Christianity, and relaly religion in general, makes a lot more sense if you, instead of crafting an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god, allow for a fallable god that maybe loves all of humanity and even created the universe but now no longer has the ability to intervene in our lives, or doesn't know when we need intervention. Much more in like with the Greek and Roman gods or something. A really nice guy with some cool powers, but he can't be everywhere at once helping everyone all the time.

Eternal punishment in hell still seems problematic for an all loving god of course, so he either needs to be all loving and hell doesn't exist (or maybe it exists but he never sends anyone there... but then why create it at all?) or he's not all loving.

But I just don't understand how you can have a logically consistent god who knows everything, has the power to do anything, and loves his creation, and yet allows us to suffer. Actually, maybe the only way I could ever envision that scenario is that god "doesn't care" about us in this life, in the sense that, we all get to go to heaven when we die and heaven is so infinitely awesome and eternal that any kind of finite suffering in this life is utterly meaningless. Still makes one wonder why we were even created in the first place then of course.

So, in short, seems like we have to accept that god is either limited, or invoke some hand wavey "the lord works in mysterious ways" answer. At least the idea of a limited god can get interesting and neat and make for some fun mythology stories centuries later.
 
2014-03-24 02:15:24 PM  
You know why con men prey overwhelmingly on the religious?

They've already demonstrated their gullibility.
 
2014-03-24 02:15:29 PM  

No Such Agency: The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator.


My lower back feels looser just reading that stretch.  Thanks!
 
2014-03-24 02:16:07 PM  

formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb


I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.
 
2014-03-24 02:17:52 PM  

LazyMedia: Yeah, it's pretty clear that the Hebrew God BECAME a single God (Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, etc.) Not so clear or apparent that he started out that way. Like Allah, best evidence is that Yahweh was a minor god who got called up to the big leagues, and later his followers claimed that he INVENTED baseball. The reason he got so mad about the Hebrews worshipping Baal, etc., was that they were the competition.


The way I had it explained to me is a bit tricky. As pointed out, the Hebrew word used ("elohim") refers both to "gods" (nonspecific, plural) and to "God" (proper noun), so the verse in question could read several different ways depending on the context you want to see.

The only way it makes sense taken as a tenet of the faith we now know as Judaism is that there are other "powers" recognized in The Bible that seem to work against God's plan - the Egyptian magicians, Balaam's conversation with his donkey, Moses' father-in-law Jethro (I forget if this is extratextual or not, but supposedly Ol' Jeth was a non-Jewish priest who had "powers"), and several others - and that even they fall under God's purview.

There's an obvious question in Exodus - why would the Hebrews, who had supposedly just witnessed the miracles of the splitting of the sea and manna and such, build a Golden Calf a month after God specifically told them not to? Because they thought they had "lost" their intermediary to God, Moses (who failed to reappear after his 40-day exile up the mountain), and so they "built" themselves another one, as they felt no person could compare with Moe.

The lesson in all this is that you don't need an intermediary to pray to God - not a saint, not Mother Mary, not her favorite son, not a Golden Calf, nor a golden radio, the reason being that the intermediary will draw focus away from the intended object of worship. (Apparently, the ancients knew more about cargo-cult mentality than modern Republicans.)
 
2014-03-24 02:18:56 PM  

rjakobi: Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.

It's much easier to rationalize than the concept that every person gets to go to heaven irregardless of their actions. It establishes the idea of responsibility for one's actions.

And the fun thing about heaven and hell is that it isn't a democratic process of who goes where. That is, in essence, out of human jurisdiction. Remember that next time you wish someone to go to hell.


Essentially, the bolded bit is the exact position of the Universalist Church (eventually Unitarian) in the 19th century- "You're all saved and there's not a damn thing you can do about it."
 
2014-03-24 02:19:26 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Simply saying that "2+2=4" is seen as "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.


Thus you show that a fish doesn't know it's wet.
 
2014-03-24 02:19:49 PM  
TomD9938

That figures.

But to be fair, Germanic hel is just a place your average person goes. It's not tortuous or anything. In contrast, Christian hell is all torture, all the time.
 
2014-03-24 02:19:57 PM  
Apparently Ken Ham thought George Carlin's bit was a sermon.

"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you!"
 
2014-03-24 02:20:08 PM  

snocone: The Christian Taliban is all about peace, love, and forgiveness, an accepting and gracious God of wonder.
amirite?


It certainly seems to bring out the best in people.
 
2014-03-24 02:20:37 PM  

Nabb1: What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.


Yeah, I was thinking, one the one hand, Maher is a pretty big asshole.  On the other had, so far as I know he doesn't chortle at the thought of the people who disagree with him roasting in a pit of hellfire for all eternity.  So, he's got that going for him, anyway, which is nice.
 
2014-03-24 02:21:01 PM  

GnomePaladin: No Such Agency: The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator.

My lower back feels looser just reading that stretch.  Thanks!


It's actually not a terrible argument.  But, it's flawed.

There seems to be an implicit assumption that everything that exists was created.  But, there is no reason to believe that assumption is true.  And, that's where his logic breaks down.

Also, I'm thinking he was being sarcastic.
 
2014-03-24 02:21:17 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.


The ONLY conception of hell I can even vaguely accept, as a Christian, is CS Lewis' idea.  That hell is a place people send themselves because they are too stubborn, proud, arrogant etc to allow themselves oneness with the creator, and it isn't a BAD place, it's just a nothing place  that is horrible only in contrast with the eternal rapture that is joining with god.   And even then, I really ain't sure I buy it.   Hell has been a more or less universal feature of every region on earth since time immemorial (Even Buddhists got a hell, lots and lots of them in fact)  Which I think says more about human nature than the nature of the almighty, as a method of social control, religion needs a way to get their followers to do things that are contrary to basic human nature, and the threat of dire punishments for all maternity is an effective way to do that.
 
2014-03-24 02:21:30 PM  

allylloyd: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Slight misinterpretation.

I'll explain it to you in simple language. Three faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam believe in ONE God (the same God). Judaism and Islam also believe in the Holy Spirit (as described in the Old Testament). Christianity believes in the Trinity (God=Father, God=Son (Jesus) and God= Holy Spirit) who they are equal in their "importance".
When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.

And God said, let us make man in our image.

And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.

Let us go down, and there confound their language.

And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.

Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?

Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. (v.20)
Thou shalt not revile the gods. (v.28)

Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. (v.13)
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. (v.24)
Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. (v.32)
 
2014-03-24 02:22:54 PM  
As much as I may think that is too good for him (and would be the only funny thing he has ever been involved with), my opinion doesn't count. Gods decisions are a dictatorship, not a democracy. Why this nudnick thinks his opinion does matter and could be definitive is beyond me. Must be something he read on a 5,000 year old dinosaur bone.
 
2014-03-24 02:23:01 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Killer Cars: FlashHarry: maher is supposed to be an asshole; that's his schtick.

True, but Maher especially embodies "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.

Simply saying that "2+2=4" is seen as "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.

(and those few who are smart enough to know 2+2=4 keep their mouths shut lest they be attacked by the rightwing horde of baboons screaming "RINO! RINO!")


Truer words couldn't be spoken. Especially when he tries to talk about the environment. Yikes.
 
2014-03-24 02:23:14 PM  
Oh, bill Maher? Meh, I'm OK with this.

/Would also accept the entire Republican party
//And/or Michael Bloomberg.
 
2014-03-24 02:23:56 PM  

allylloyd: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Slight misinterpretation.

I'll explain it to you in simple language. Three faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam believe in ONE God (the same God). Judaism and Islam also believe in the Holy Spirit (as described in the Old Testament). Christianity believes in the Trinity (God=Father, God=Son (Jesus) and God= Holy Spirit) who they are equal in their "importance".
When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.


Even in those early times we understood the value of getting a second opinion.
 
2014-03-24 02:24:20 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: gilgigamesh: I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

~RAND PAUL!



/ftfy
 
2014-03-24 02:24:35 PM  
Clip of Bill Maher making Noah jokes.  I want to believe that the percentage of americans who believe the Noah myth is true is no where near 60%.  I really do.
 
2014-03-24 02:24:39 PM  

TomD9938: allylloyd: TomD9938: allylloyd: I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian)

That's sort of like saying Lou Gehrig didnt die of Lou Gehrig's Disease

Have you ever read The Acts of the Apostles?


Maybe during confirmation 30 years ago.  My Sundays have been free since then.


It was never their intention to start a new religious faith, but rather tell other people about the lessons they learned from Jesus Christ (a teacher--a Jewish rabbi).


My point was that Jesus was as likely to have been a Christian as he would have been a Muslim.

Is there a Christian anywhere that doesn't know he was a Jew?


You're kidding right? I've had to explain to Christians what the Holy Eucharist is and what the Last Supper was for?


//Where you confirmed in the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church? Any altar boy duties?
//I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church; I got to be a lay reader. Fr. Samuels made the boys do the altar duties.
 
2014-03-24 02:25:09 PM  

eraser8: GnomePaladin: No Such Agency: The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator.

My lower back feels looser just reading that stretch.  Thanks!

It's actually not a terrible argument.  But, it's flawed.

There seems to be an implicit assumption that everything that exists was created.  But, there is no reason to believe that assumption is true.  And, that's where his logic breaks down.

Also, I'm thinking he was being sarcastic.


Me too, I was just struck by the absurdity of the initial statement and it piqued my interest.  I think it is a terrible argument, based on your explanation.  A not-very-subtle moving of the goalposts.
 
2014-03-24 02:25:33 PM  

cynicalbastard: Essentially, the bolded bit is the exact position of the Universalist Church (eventually Unitarian) in the 19th century- "You're all saved and there's not a damn thing you can do about it."


The Unitarians were a separate group, rejecting the Trinitarian (God-Father/Son/Holy Spirit) formulation as irrational.  One god is one god, they'd say, and no illogical statement can be truth.  Eventually the two groups realized they had more in common than not (including the rejection of predestinationism and original sin) and formed the UUs.
 
2014-03-24 02:25:51 PM  

Cheron: The lake of fire is only the half of it.  You are force by all sorts of demon to do acts of perversion. Think about clouds and harps or acts of perversion; no brainer


Acts of perversion with harps?

www.darkhorizons.com

This one time, in Hell Camp ...
 
2014-03-24 02:25:53 PM  

Magorn: The ONLY conception of hell I can even vaguely accept, as a Christian, is CS Lewis' idea.


In the hopes that you're a real, live Christian, I have to ask (I asked another Farker the same question...but, got no response):

WHY do you believe in a god?

As, I noted in my earlier question, I've been thinking a lot lately about how religionists view the world and how atheists view the world -- and, whether the gap between those views can ever be bridged.
 
2014-03-24 02:26:09 PM  

NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.


I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.
 
2014-03-24 02:27:14 PM  

allylloyd: When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.


So just rename them "Saints" and you get an ironclad loophole.

Checkmate, God!
 
2014-03-24 02:28:22 PM  

Magorn: Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.

The ONLY conception of hell I can even vaguely accept, as a Christian, is CS Lewis' idea.  That hell is a place people send themselves because they are too stubborn, proud, arrogant etc to allow themselves oneness with the creator, and it isn't a BAD place, it's just a nothing place  that is horrible only in contrast with the eternal rapture that is joining with god.   And even then, I really ain't sure I buy it.   Hell has been a more or less universal feature of every region on earth since time immemorial (Even Buddhists got a hell, lots and lots of them in fact)  Which I think says more about human nature than the nature of the almighty, as a method of social control, religion needs a way to get their followers to do things that are contrary to basic human nature, and the threat of dire punishments for all maternity is an effective way to do that.


I'm going to have to assume that you meant eternity and not punishment for all mothers.
 
2014-03-24 02:28:27 PM  

rebelyell2006: The Flexecutioner: this helps quell my rage when I hear about this guy.  i sometimes combine it with 2 deep breaths, in through the nose, out through the mouth.  it's sublime hilarity calms me.

/its funny cuz it has two syllables

Ham? But where's the pickle?


That's the surprise!
 
2014-03-24 02:28:39 PM  

htomc: Rapmaster2000: People were pretty uncreative if the best they could come up with is "lake of fire".

Notice how everything is defined in purely human terms.  Just like heaven supposedly has "streets of gold".  Why in the world would there be any need at all for gold there?  What possible use could it have there, beyond looking somewhat nice?

It's all just humans appealing to other human's prejudices, fears, and desires.



I was raised Baptist. My grandmother was and still is a very influential member of our*** church. I think my problems with organized religion started with Baptist preachers and how they were viewed. When I was a chile, I thought that Pastor Tucker was Jesus' cousin or something. I literally thought that the pastor, not GOD or Jesus, but the pastor had the power to hear prayers. I realized as I got older that my perception of him had been shaped by the adults in the church who sort of treated him as an infalible symbol of GOD. I began to ask questions like, if GOD hears all of us, then why do I need a middle man to send my prayers up? If GOD is omnipresent, then why do I need to go into a specific building to ask for forgiveness or to pray for mercy? The answers that I got about fellowship and being around other godly people always rung hollow. The tipping point for organized religion (not the existence of GOD) was one night when I went to what Baptists call a revival. Its a week worth of guest preachers, hollering, shouting, and singing that we had once or twice every year. It was at a mega church in Largo, MD that was as big as a small neighborhood. During the sermon, the pastor told everyone to pull out their tithing envelopes. Those people who had them (most folks in the very large room) pulled them out. The pastor then instructed everyone to "hold them above your head and waive them at the devil". I sat in this church watching people gleefully waiving envelopes full of their money...and then I noticed the other people, like me, who had no envelope to waive. Most of them just kind of clapped, heads down, not really doing much as the person next to them who did have an envelope danced and sung loudly. Now, as a visitor, no one expected me to have one so it wasn't a problem. But what about these other people. The ones who maybe didn't have enough to give. The ones who just didn't want too. Here they were, being shamed into tithing by being put on public display in front of the other chuch members.
It's possible that I simply misintepreted the preacher's actions or I made something out of nothing to justify not going back to church. But, that moment does stick out to me as the moment when my religion changed. It became more about personal spiritual development than about group acceptance of my beliefs. My grandmother asks me probably once every couple of months when she's going to see me in church.


/I don't know, Grandma. But when I do go, it'll be for you.
//***can I really call it "our" church if I haven't been in over a year?
 
2014-03-24 02:28:50 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Christians find the concept of hell not existing more offensive than god not existing.


Well, YEAH.... if there is no Hell, they're pissed that they spent all this time trying not to covet their neighbor's ass. Or his ox. Or his wife. Or trying to hide the fact that they DO covet his ass. Gigety.
 
2014-03-24 02:29:15 PM  

unchellmatt: hopefully not obscure



You silly bunt!
 
2014-03-24 02:29:50 PM  

Two16: Gecko Gingrich: gilgigamesh: I am assuming (and this may be a big assumption) that Ken Ham doesn't believe in Santa Claus. Yet I am pretty sure he would view as absurd the assertion that he is "mad at Santa Claus". It isn't that hard a concept.

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

~RAND PAUL!


/ftfy


Considering the statement was by Stephen Roberts, not Rand Paul (who is a theist)...
 
2014-03-24 02:30:43 PM  
Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.
 
2014-03-24 02:30:57 PM  

GnomePaladin: eraser8: GnomePaladin: No Such Agency: The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator.

My lower back feels looser just reading that stretch.  Thanks!

It's actually not a terrible argument.  But, it's flawed.

There seems to be an implicit assumption that everything that exists was created.  But, there is no reason to believe that assumption is true.  And, that's where his logic breaks down.

Also, I'm thinking he was being sarcastic.

Me too, I was just struck by the absurdity of the initial statement and it piqued my interest.  I think it is a terrible argument, based on your explanation.  A not-very-subtle moving of the goalposts.


Yeah.  When I said his argument wasn't terrible, what I meant was, if his premise is true, his conclusion follows logically.  Based on empirical evidence, I just don't happen to believe his premise is true.

In other words, any number of arguments can be logically coherent but flat wrong.  Logic can only get you so far.  It requires some basic assumptions.  To find out whether a logical statement is a true statement, you have to test it against the real world.
 
2014-03-24 02:31:32 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: Christianity is inherently wacky, so it's not surprising when Christians say wacky things.

I mean, it's a cult based on Jewish beliefs, but they think the Jews...the only source of information regarding the deity they worship...are all wrong. Think about that.

They (if they speak English) call their deity "God," which is somewhat akin to calling your dog "Dog" and getting mad when other people with other dogs don't recognise the primacy of Dog. Hello, your Hebrew god has a name. It's not "God." That's just capitalising a Germanic word (like Dog).

After rejecting the understandings of the deity held by those they nicked the concept of said deity from, they then re-imagined said deity as an super-god, granting him all kinds of special position and powers that are wholly inconsistent with the earlier lore of said god. It's like if a bunch of people adopted Shango and transformed him into the ultimate deity, called him Bob, and told people of African descent that they never really got Shango, because he's Bob, and reasons.

By nature, Christians are psychotically arrogant. It's the entire basis of their religion.



c.editingmyspace.com
 
2014-03-24 02:32:15 PM  

TomD9938: allylloyd: I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian)

That's sort of like saying Lou Gehrig didnt die of Lou Gehrig's Disease.


Funny you should mention that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/18/sports/18gehrig.html?pagewanted=all
 
2014-03-24 02:34:30 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: The tipping point for organized religion (not the existence of GOD)...


I'll try you...I've asked this question a couple of times already.  I'm really interested in your answer:

If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?

As, I noted in my earlier question, I've been thinking a lot lately about how religionists view the world and how atheists view the world -- and, whether the gap between those views can ever be bridged.
 
2014-03-24 02:36:23 PM  

Two16: Facetious_Speciest: Christianity is inherently wacky, so it's not surprising when Christians say wacky things.

I mean, it's a cult based on Jewish beliefs, but they think the Jews...the only source of information regarding the deity they worship...are all wrong. Think about that.

They (if they speak English) call their deity "God," which is somewhat akin to calling your dog "Dog" and getting mad when other people with other dogs don't recognise the primacy of Dog. Hello, your Hebrew god has a name. It's not "God." That's just capitalising a Germanic word (like Dog).

After rejecting the understandings of the deity held by those they nicked the concept of said deity from, they then re-imagined said deity as an super-god, granting him all kinds of special position and powers that are wholly inconsistent with the earlier lore of said god. It's like if a bunch of people adopted Shango and transformed him into the ultimate deity, called him Bob, and told people of African descent that they never really got Shango, because he's Bob, and reasons.

By nature, Christians are psychotically arrogant. It's the entire basis of their religion.


[c.editingmyspace.com image 396x366]


Well played.
 
2014-03-24 02:36:56 PM  

allylloyd: /Where you confirmed in the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church?


Lutheran, actually.  The chill Minnesota kind.


Any altar boy duties?


I may have lit a candle or two.  They rotated the 8th and 9th graders that were in confirmation for those duties IIRC.

Pastor Bob was a married father of two, retired stock broker and former boxer / Marine, so there was no funny business either.
 
2014-03-24 02:37:44 PM  

TheOther: susler: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

The Christians b/c they will condemn you and they won't leave you a tip after church if they suspect you don't believe the same thing as they.

...and they only tip the church 10% for the service.


You're thinking of Mormons. Most Christians just throw God "a little walkin' around money."
 
2014-03-24 02:38:07 PM  

eraser8: allylloyd: That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

I've been thinking about Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu and the rest and trying to figure out why they believe what they believe.

I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?


And my Weeners is "Why not?" My believe in God (includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is because I have faith. I don't need to physically touch, hear or see God to believe in God. One of my favorite Bible passages is from Matthew Chapter 17: For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

//Faith (and prayer) have allowed me to move a lot of mountains in my lifetime...
//They haven't always moved the way I wanted them to, but they have moved nonetheless.
 
2014-03-24 02:39:00 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Look, I don't know what's so hard to understand here. God snaps his fingers and wills two full-grown adults into existence, but does a shiat job on their programming gets pissed off and visits terrible vengeance upon them, then later gets pissed off again and drowns everyone, and then he's still pissed about a rule he made up so he "sacrifices" (in that he dies, but he comes back a few days later, so it's not really a sacrifice) himself to himself in order to change that rule, and then because he's come off as such an asshole  in the story, in the sequel to the Old Testament they completely retcon him as happy loving funtime god, and the point here is that he loves you and sacrifices for you and wants to give you good things, but if you don't toe the line, he's gonna torture you forever and ever. So shape up and fly right. God loves you, but sometimes, baby, you just make him so mad.


It's an abusive relationship, all right ...
 
2014-03-24 02:40:03 PM  
Have these people ever tried living life like there's not some being looking over their shoulder judging them 24 hours a day? That sounds like Hell. You need some moral compass? Treat others like you'd want to be treated, that's about it.
 
2014-03-24 02:41:47 PM  

Deep Contact: PadreMontoya: [www.markstivers.com image 631x549]

Fire and brimstone lake.


The problem with a metal boat lined with Styrofoam is the metal will eventually reach the temperature of the fire and brimstone lake which will cause the Styrofoam to catch fire.
What you should use in replace of the Styrofoam is refractory ceramic fiber which can withstand up to 1400 deg. C.


All that will do, like the Styrofoam, is prolong the inevitable.  Sure, refractory ceramic fiber will do it much better, but we ARE talking about eternity here.  So clearly there's going to be a need to pump the heat out somehow.

Clearly what's needed is strips of superconductive cloth.  Since one of the intrinsic properties of superconductors is that they are the same temperature throughout, all you need to do is connected the surface of the boat (the "source") via a long strip or wire of superconductive material to an infinite mass of significantly lower temperature (the "sink").

The beauty is, given the temperature of your average lake of fire, there's no need to worry about low-temperature superconductors.  Any superconducting material should do.

/At least it worked on the Ringworld.
 
2014-03-24 02:41:55 PM  
Sounds about right. He deserves worse obviously.
 
2014-03-24 02:43:11 PM  
I've tried all of the big box hardware stores and Barbecues Galore looking for odorless brimstone, and they look at me like they've never heard of the stuff.  If it really burns forever with unspeakable fury, then I'd pay a pretty penny for a Weber kettle full.  Satan really is missing out on a remarkable marketing opportunity here.
 
2014-03-24 02:43:45 PM  

RedZoneTuba: "It's a Mr. Ham on line 5, calling about creationism."
"OK, give me Ham on 5 and hold the Maher"


POTY
 
2014-03-24 02:45:43 PM  

htomc: Rapmaster2000: People were pretty uncreative if the best they could come up with is "lake of fire".

Notice how everything is defined in purely human terms.  Just like heaven supposedly has "streets of gold".  Why in the world would there be any need at all for gold there?  What possible use could it have there, beyond looking somewhat nice?

It's all just humans appealing to other human's prejudices, fears, and desires.


That was one of the first things that tipped me off when I was a kid. Talk about gold and mansions in heaven and torture and pain in hell. Right after they told me to try to get rid of all my earthly desires. It just never made sense to me.
 
2014-03-24 02:45:45 PM  
allylloyd: [to the question: WHY do you believe in a god?]   And my Weeners is "Why not?"

Because that reasoning (if honest) would compel you to believe in all gods, absent some reason for disbelief.  How could you possibly choose just one?  And, how did you choose the one you chose?
 
2014-03-24 02:47:04 PM  

browntimmy: Have these people ever tried living life like there's not some being looking over their shoulder judging them 24 hours a day?


Don't be stupid, that's the one part they got right. Just ask Snowden.
 
2014-03-24 02:47:23 PM  

wildcardjack: Premise 1: God is perfect
Premise 2: Nothing God makes is imperfect because he is perfect.
Premise 3: Man, and thus I, was created by God's perfect will.

Conclusion: Stop trying to improve on perfection.


Killer Cars: TV's Vinnie: Simply saying that "2+2=4" is seen as "liberal smugness" to most conservatives.

To some extent yeah, but someone like Jon Stewart for instance really only goes after isolated issues/instances. And, no matter how ZING! his point(s) might be, he delivers it in such a way that seems gentle.

Maher though basically looks for any excuse go into overdrive and essentially insult someone's politik. I think it can be funny (albeit often toxic if taken seriously as "debate"), but I can certainly see where Righty McRepub over there can fly off the handle at his mere presence.


"Real Time" has great debates on current issues. One of the only shows that brings on pundits from all sides that don't sit and read from their political parties playbook. Yes, he gets to have his soliloquies at the end and push his shtick, which is heavy liberal, but the discussions they have are quite intelligent.
 
2014-03-24 02:49:05 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.


Those people had it coming.
 
2014-03-24 02:49:08 PM  

Dr Dreidel: LazyMedia: Yeah, it's pretty clear that the Hebrew God BECAME a single God (Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, etc.) Not so clear or apparent that he started out that way. Like Allah, best evidence is that Yahweh was a minor god who got called up to the big leagues, and later his followers claimed that he INVENTED baseball. The reason he got so mad about the Hebrews worshipping Baal, etc., was that they were the competition.

The way I had it explained to me is a bit tricky. As pointed out, the Hebrew word used ("elohim") refers both to "gods" (nonspecific, plural) and to "God" (proper noun), so the verse in question could read several different ways depending on the context you want to see.

The only way it makes sense taken as a tenet of the faith we now know as Judaism is that there are other "powers" recognized in The Bible that seem to work against God's plan - the Egyptian magicians, Balaam's conversation with his donkey, Moses' father-in-law Jethro (I forget if this is extratextual or not, but supposedly Ol' Jeth was a non-Jewish priest who had "powers"), and several others - and that even they fall under God's purview.

There's an obvious question in Exodus - why would the Hebrews, who had supposedly just witnessed the miracles of the splitting of the sea and manna and such, build a Golden Calf a month after God specifically told them not to? Because they thought they had "lost" their intermediary to God, Moses (who failed to reappear after his 40-day exile up the mountain), and so they "built" themselves another one, as they felt no person could compare with Moe.


Pangea: allylloyd: When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.

So just rename them "Saints" and you get an ironclad loophole.

Checkmate, God!


Some explanations needed here

CHRISTIANS DO NOT PRAY TO SAINTS. Rather, we ask for saints (just like we asks friends/familiar/church members) to pray for us.

There are people who given sainthood by the Early Catholic Church (before the Anglican Communion). This was because of what those men and women did to spread the words/works of Jesus Christ and their personal doings.

//People were named saints in the Catholic Church as recognition of their duties towards God (in their teachings/actions/etc.)
//The Catholic Church still names people saints. Other churches no longer do this but they do have days of recognition where people's works are remembered. For instance, the Episcopal Church has a day were Martin Luther King, Jr. is recognized for his works/words.
 
2014-03-24 02:50:25 PM  

Pangea: allylloyd: When God said "You shall have no other Gods but me", he was speaking to people who believed in Him but were also praying to other "gods" for repentance or help. In other words, if you believe in God, you must allow God to answer your prayers, and not go to another God because you don't like the answer he gives you.

So just rename them "Saints" and you get an ironclad loophole.

Checkmate, God!


encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com

you called?
 
2014-03-24 02:50:41 PM  

allylloyd: CHRISTIANS DO NOT PRAY TO SAINTS


No, but Catholics do.
 
2014-03-24 02:50:53 PM  
Look, I don't know what's so hard to understand here. God snaps his fingers and wills two full-grown adults into existence, but does a shiat job on their programming gets pissed off and visits terrible vengeance upon them, then later gets pissed off again and drowns everyone, and then he's still pissed about a rule he made up so he "sacrifices" (in that he dies, but he comes back a few days later, so it's not really a sacrifice) himself to himself in order to change that rule, and then because he's come off as such an asshole  in the story, in the sequel to the Old Testament they completely retcon him as happy loving funtime god, and the point here is that he loves you and sacrifices for you and wants to give you good things, but if you don't toe the line, he's gonna torture you forever and ever. So shape up and fly right. God loves you, but sometimes, baby, you just make him so mad.

If you just view god (and his actions) like a normal person, instead of being infallible and all-loving, it makes a lot more sense.
 
2014-03-24 02:51:27 PM  

eraser8: I'll try you...I've asked this question a couple of times already. I'm really interested in your answer:

If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?


I'll tell you why I don't begrudge others their faith, if that helps. Bear in mind, I spent 15 years in day schools, plus one in seminary, so I've had some time to think The Question over (so much so that I stopped entirely).

I think it was Will Rogers who said "When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on." That knot is "god" (for certain conceptions of the deity) - when you just can't even anymore, and you're about to lose your shiat, and nothing will ever be good or happy or right with your world ever again, you know that there is that backstop.

An ex-gf who had been hospitalized for mental health problems found this conception to be accurate for her experience - where she literally promised god (and her parents) that she'd hang on for "5 more minutes" every 5 minutes.

// everyone sees their deity differently, even within the same sect
 
2014-03-24 02:51:46 PM  

rebelyell2006: The Flexecutioner: this helps quell my rage when I hear about this guy.  i sometimes combine it with 2 deep breaths, in through the nose, out through the mouth.  it's sublime hilarity calms me.

/its funny cuz it has two syllables

Ham? But where's the pickle?


img.fark.net
 
2014-03-24 02:51:46 PM  

allylloyd: eraser8: I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?

And my Weeners is "Why not?" My believe in God (includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is because I have faith. I don't need to physically touch, hear or see God to believe in God.


You didn't answer the question. "I have faith" is  HOW you believe in god not why.

Why don't you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns? You don't need to physically touch, hear or see them in order to believe in them. They also have stories written about them in books. So why YHWH instead of FSM/PU?


i651.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-24 02:52:35 PM  

RsquaredW: Considering the statement was by Stephen Roberts, not Rand Paul (who is a theist)...


img.fark.net


(hint: it's an oldie around these parts)
 
2014-03-24 02:52:42 PM  

eraser8: DROxINxTHExWIND: The tipping point for organized religion (not the existence of GOD)...

I'll try you...I've asked this question a couple of times already.  I'm really interested in your answer:

If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?

As, I noted in my earlier question, I've been thinking a lot lately about how religionists view the world and how atheists view the world -- and, whether the gap between those views can ever be bridged.



You know, I'll answer as honestly as I can...it's probably indoctrination, mixed with a little bit of "better to believe than to go to Hell" in the back of my mind. I've sat and pondered it myself. I have had life experiences where I felt that I was being protected. I fell into a coma when I was 6 months old and if not for a bunch of amazing circumstances, like my aunt just randomly deciding she wanted to visit me at my grandmother's house during her lunch break, only to find me in my crib having breathing problems, I would not be here. I've been shot at, been in major car accidents, and a lot of other shiat that I can't get into here. Was it all a coincidence that I made it through? Why was I worth saving? I don't know. But, it helps me to think that there is some order to life .I don't know how I would react upon realizing that after this, there is nothing. I've had too many people die around me to believe that the end of their life was just...the end. More than anything else, I think that belief in GOD is a coping mechanism. I'm hopeful this isn't all there is.
 
2014-03-24 02:53:59 PM  

Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.


It's cute that you would put it that way, but you know full well why many atheists actually get riled up, and it's got nothing to do with god.  Being disingenuous is not a very good argument.
 
2014-03-24 02:54:17 PM  

TomD9938: allylloyd: /Where you confirmed in the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church?

Lutheran, actually.  The chill Minnesota kind.


Any altar boy duties?


I may have lit a candle or two.  They rotated the 8th and 9th graders that were in confirmation for those duties IIRC.

Pastor Bob was a married father of two, retired stock broker and former boxer / Marine, so there was no funny business either.


Lutheran!!! Get back to church, one of your pastors is a tattooed lady!!!


//Nadia Bolz-Webber
 
2014-03-24 02:54:42 PM  
jigger

No, but Catholics do.

Invariably, in any thread regarding Christianity, some inbred Protestant will durr hurr his way into "but paw, dem Cat-o-licks ain't Christian!"

Not hardcore enough for the Klan, not educated enough to move beyond. A tough row to hoe.
 
2014-03-24 02:54:52 PM  

JackieRabbit: It amazes me that so-calld Christians know nothing about the basic tenants of their own religion. Did no one ever tell them that Jesus supposedly came to deliver God's new covenant with Man: that the vengeful God had seen the error of his ways and that the new relationship would replace vengeance with unconditional love?


Matthew 5:17-18: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."


So it's a new convenant for things we want to do (eat pork, wear fabric blends, cut our sideburns, etc.) but still the old law for things that make us feel icky (like gay marriage).  Gotcha.  So why does an omnipotent, omniscient being even need to make a new deal (and sacrifice Himself to Himself)?  Since he knows everything, wouldn't he know the old deal wouldn't work when he was making it?

Was not appearing before any humans part of the new deal?  It seems like in the OT God was all over the place - ordering people to sacrifice their children, making bets with Satan, killing firstborn infants, etc.  These days we are lucky if he sends a pic of the chick he knocked up (no, they weren't married - she was married to another guy but he was apparently OK with it) on a tortilla or a freeway overpass.  Why the big change in character in such a short time?
 
2014-03-24 02:55:27 PM  

meat0918: I've heard this one before.

Roasting in a lake which burns with fire and brimstone is more merciful than blinking you out of existence after you die, because you see, you're still living forever, and who doesn't want to live forever?


And there goes the ORIGINAL interpretation.

Hell was only for the believers that strayed away.   Once you earned eternal life, the only thing left to decide was where you would spend it.   Those that never earned it would die and cease to exist.

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
 
2014-03-24 02:55:33 PM  

allylloyd: eraser8: allylloyd: That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

I've been thinking about Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu and the rest and trying to figure out why they believe what they believe.

I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?

And my Weeners is "Why not?" My believe in God (includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is because I have faith. I don't need to physically touch, hear or see God to believe in God. One of my favorite Bible passages is from Matthew Chapter 17: For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

//Faith (and prayer) have allowed me to move a lot of mountains in my lifetime...
//They haven't always moved the way I wanted them to, but they have moved nonetheless.


I don't know where the "weeners " came from ---I DIDN'T SAY IT. I said, "My response would be ..."
 
2014-03-24 02:55:50 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: Christianity is inherently wacky, so it's not surprising when Christians say wacky things.

I mean, it's a cult based on Jewish beliefs, but they think the Jews...the only source of information regarding the deity they worship...are all wrong. Think about that.

They (if they speak English) call their deity "God," which is somewhat akin to calling your dog "Dog" and getting mad when other people with other dogs don't recognise the primacy of Dog. Hello, your Hebrew god has a name. It's not "God." That's just capitalising a Germanic word (like Dog).

After rejecting the understandings of the deity held by those they nicked the concept of said deity from, they then re-imagined said deity as an super-god, granting him all kinds of special position and powers that are wholly inconsistent with the earlier lore of said god. It's like if a bunch of people adopted Shango and transformed him into the ultimate deity, called him Bob, and told people of African descent that they never really got Shango, because he's Bob, and reasons.

By nature, Christians are psychotically arrogant. It's the entire basis of their religion.


You know, everything I learn about the original form of judaism and what the oldest scriptures said also suggest that to Jews, when they invented judaism, you only went to heaven if you were a Jew.  If you weren't a Jew, you didn't have a soul, period, and weren't even really human.
 
2014-03-24 02:58:10 PM  
We Answers Find in Our Genesis. Don't dead. Open Inside.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-03-24 02:58:41 PM  
eraser8: [Replying to  GnomePaladinYeah.  When I said his argument wasn't terrible, what I meant was, if his premise is true, his conclusion follows logically.  Based on empirical evidence, I just don't happen to believe his premise is true.

Rereading this, I realize what I said isn't quite right.

The idea that everything that exists was created IS a flawed premise.  But, it's not correct to say that empirical evidence shows us its falsity.  What I should have said, is that empirical evidence COULD show us its falsity.  That is, I can logical conceive of things that can exist without the need for a creation event (and, therefore, without the need for a creator).

You could come up with a hypothesis (and, some have) that everything that exists had a creator...but, that sort of hypothesis hasn't been tested.  And, until it has been (and passed its tests), that assumption shouldn't be taken as fact.
 
2014-03-24 02:58:47 PM  
TheBigJerk

You know, everything I learn about the original form of judaism and what the oldest scriptures said also suggest that to Jews, when they invented judaism, you only went to heaven if you were a Jew. If you weren't a Jew, you didn't have a soul, period, and weren't even really human.

This is somewhat common amongst ethnocentric religions. It's why, when outsiders appropriate them for themselves (as Christianity appropriated parts of Judaism, and later Islam did the same thing), they have to be massaged into universalist creeds where instead of members of the tribe being favored, it's simply believers in the creed.
 
2014-03-24 02:59:00 PM  

eraser8: allylloyd: [to the question: WHY do you believe in a god?]   And my Weeners is "Why not?"

Because that reasoning (if honest) would compel you to believe in all gods, absent some reason for disbelief.  How could you possibly choose just one?  And, how did you choose the one you chose?


Sorry, but I'm not going to change my response to suit you.

I believe in God. God believes in me.

//I believe in the Trinity; this means there's ONE God with different name.

//You don't have to believe in God for God to believe in you.
 
2014-03-24 03:00:15 PM  

browntimmy: Have these people ever tried living life like there's not some being looking over their shoulder judging them 24 hours a day? That sounds like Hell. You need some moral compass? Treat others like you'd want to be treated, that's about it.


Do onto others as you would have them do onto you?

That's a great idea.  I wonder were it came from. ;)
 
2014-03-24 03:01:56 PM  

No Such Agency: mayIFark: The whole point of Ken Ham's argument (against Bill Nye) was "Pic or didn't happen".

Now, let's ask him to produce that proof for his claim.

The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator. It's just common sense. Thus, Nye has the burden of proving that sharp, serrated theropod teeth were not designed (by an infinitely intelligent god) to chew plants in Eden before the fall.


For the null hypothesis to imply a creator, you'd have to start with proof that something was actually created. Without the proof, you have to start with the null hypothesis that it was not created by anything, then test it against being created (by God or any other means).

Burden back on Ham and Nye to prove their version of events is the correct one. You seem to be the score keeper type, so let me point out that observable, testable, and recreatable evidence still beats the hell out of "this book I read told me so" in terms of winning an argument.
 
2014-03-24 03:04:30 PM  

Mirrorz: We Answers Find in Our Genesis. Don't dead. Open Inside.

[i.imgur.com image 640x480]


Early albums, with Peter Gabriel, amiright?
 
2014-03-24 03:05:51 PM  

Danger Mouse: browntimmy: Have these people ever tried living life like there's not some being looking over their shoulder judging them 24 hours a day? That sounds like Hell. You need some moral compass? Treat others like you'd want to be treated, that's about it.

Do onto others as you would have them do onto you?

That's a great idea.  I wonder were it came from. ;)


I think it's much better idea to do unto others as they would have you do unto them.
 
2014-03-24 03:06:01 PM  
I often wonder, can a person be a good person and believe in hell?

I mean, you're not just talking punishing the wicked, you're talking permanent, ultimate, total agony forever and ever for an ultimately temporal sin.  There is a warlord that murdered thousands, raped and tortured every day of his life, and died so hated that you couldn't FIND his body when the mob was done with it.

No one remembers his name, no one remembers what he did, I'm only speculating his (very likely) existence, but if you believe in hell he has to be burning in it still.

Is that right?

I mean, setting aside everything else, from the (scripturally supported) unjust damnations to the "evil summbiatch who had a last-minute repentance," and only assuming the truly EVIL motherfarkers go to hell, is that right?  To be in hell FOREVER, to suffer FOREVER.
 
2014-03-24 03:06:18 PM  

jigger: allylloyd: CHRISTIANS DO NOT PRAY TO SAINTS

No, but Catholics do.


Catholics are Christians. And they don't pray to saints! They ask saints (and other people) to speak to God on their behalf. They aren't asking the saint to solve the problem. They are asking the saint help them get their message to God.


//Case in point, Roger Staubach's Hail Mary pass. It wasn't praying TO Mary. He was praying that Mary would help him get his message to God. They need a touchdown to win the game.
 
2014-03-24 03:06:45 PM  

allylloyd: TomD9938: allylloyd: I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian)

That's sort of like saying Lou Gehrig didnt die of Lou Gehrig's Disease

Have you ever read The Acts of the Apostles? It was never their intention to start a new religious faith, but rather tell other people about the lessons they learned from Jesus Christ (a teacher--a Jewish rabbi). This changed when Paul (Saul in Acts) started teaching because his focus was no longer Jewish traditions and laws, but rather the teachings of Jesus Christ.

//Also, Paul changed how he gave his message depending on the people he was talking to...


Wouldn't the title best be applied as the Acts of the Holy Spirit rather than the Apostles?  The Apostles were just the vessels used in this book and it was the Holy Spirit who was the dominant Figure.
 
2014-03-24 03:07:19 PM  

Bf+: Did someone say overly attached Jesus?
[HolyshiatFunny01.jpg]

[HolyshiatFunny02.jpg]


i887.photobucket.com
This +1 was on your Daddy's wrist when he was shot down over Hanoi. He was captured, put in a Vietnamese prison camp. He knew if the gooks ever saw the +1 it'd be confiscated, taken away. The way your Dad looked at it, that +1 was your birthright. He'd be damned if any slopes were gonna put their greasy yella hands on his boy's birthright. So he hid it in the one place he knew he could hide something.

His ass.

Five long years, he wore this +1... up his ass. Then he died of dysentery, he gave me the +1. I hid this uncomfortable hunk of +1 up my ass two years. Then, after seven years, I was sent home to my family. And now, Bf+, I give the +1 to you.
 
2014-03-24 03:07:45 PM  
some of the many fears Christians have are:

fear that living near unbelievers will cause God to smite them
fear that living near unbelievers will cause the devil to smite them
fear that living near unbelievers will cause angels or demons to smite them

fear that living near people who don't believe correctly will cause God to smite them
fear that living near who don't believe correctly will cause the devil to smite them
fear that living near who don't believe correctly will cause angels or demons to smite them

fear that living near people who don't look like them will cause God to smite them
fear that living near people who don't look like them  will cause the devil to smite them
fear that living near people who don't look like them  will cause angels or demons to smite them

fear that living near people who God has made poor will cause God to smite them
fear that living near people who God has made poor will cause the devil to smite them
fear that living near peopleGod has made poor will cause angels or demons to smite them

fear that their own depraved behaivors are not depraved enough and willl allow someone else to get a better seat in heaven, because they believe in Jesus and therefore are going to Heaven no matter how hateful they are.
 
2014-03-24 03:07:51 PM  
The Old Testament Yahweh shares almost nothing with the God the Father whom Jesus worships.

But It proved impossible to kick out volcano god Yahweh and maintain the belief in the inerrancy of the Bible so the Church (and by that I mean organized Christians not just Roman Catholics) accepted the idea that the unbaptized -- including infants -- went to Hell. The idea that the Bible was a collection of incompatible views on religion is so abhorrent that they construed a loving Father to mean someone who will torture infinitely people who have done nothing wrong. And since Life begins at conception, you don't even have to be born to suffer infinitely. If the woman miscarries, Hell is the zygote's "justifiable" destination.
 
2014-03-24 03:08:49 PM  

vudukungfu: ReverendJynxed: beaches flooding.

Uh. We just call that High Tide around here.


I know, and yet we still have the climate ninnies running around with their arms in the air like it's the end of the world. Who doesn't like beach-front property?
 
2014-03-24 03:08:51 PM  
allylloyd

Catholics are Christians. And they don't pray to saints! They ask saints (and other people) to speak to God on their behalf. They aren't asking the saint to solve the problem. They are asking the saint help them get their message to God.

Many Protestants (and formerly-Protestant atheists, oddly enough) cannot seem to grasp this.
 
2014-03-24 03:09:01 PM  

TheBigJerk: I often wonder, can a person be a good person and believe in hell?

I mean, you're not just talking punishing the wicked, you're talking permanent, ultimate, total agony forever and ever for an ultimately temporal sin.  There is a warlord that murdered thousands, raped and tortured every day of his life, and died so hated that you couldn't FIND his body when the mob was done with it.

No one remembers his name, no one remembers what he did, I'm only speculating his (very likely) existence, but if you believe in hell he has to be burning in it still.

Is that right?

I mean, setting aside everything else, from the (scripturally supported) unjust damnations to the "evil summbiatch who had a last-minute repentance," and only assuming the truly EVIL motherfarkers go to hell, is that right?  To be in hell FOREVER, to suffer FOREVER.


How do you define right and wrong?
 
2014-03-24 03:09:25 PM  

mayIFark: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Is son of God not a God? If it is, you got 2 right there.


Even if God/Jesus are one in the same (the trinity and all that), you still have the Devil/Lucifer, who is pretty godlike, plus both have armies of angels and demons, which are sort of (lower case g) gods.  Seems pretty polytheistic to me.  (Don't get me started on Mormonism as the ultimate polytheistic religion)
 
2014-03-24 03:10:06 PM  

safetycap: allylloyd: eraser8: I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?

And my Weeners is "Why not?" My believe in God (includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is because I have faith. I don't need to physically touch, hear or see God to believe in God.

You didn't answer the question. "I have faith" is  HOW you believe in god not why.

Why don't you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns? You don't need to physically touch, hear or see them in order to believe in them. They also have stories written about them in books. So why YHWH instead of FSM/PU?


[i651.photobucket.com image 288x401]


How do I believe in God? By doing what I do. I try and show my belief in God through my actions.


//Some actions are better than others, of course, but I have Free Will.
 
2014-03-24 03:10:40 PM  

eraser8: If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?


Because people are afraid of mortality. That's really the only reason to worship God. I mean why else? As for the Noah story, from a screenwriting standpoint, it's the most ridiculous story in the Bible.
 
2014-03-24 03:10:41 PM  

allylloyd: TomD9938: allylloyd: /Where you confirmed in the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church?

Lutheran, actually.  The chill Minnesota kind.


Any altar boy duties?


I may have lit a candle or two.  They rotated the 8th and 9th graders that were in confirmation for those duties IIRC.

Pastor Bob was a married father of two, retired stock broker and former boxer / Marine, so there was no funny business either.

Lutheran!!! Get back to church, one of your pastors is a tattooed lady!!!


//Nadia Bolz-Webber


As it happens, our Pastor Bob's assistant pastor, who was far more active in our confirmation classes than Bob, was a more or less 'out' lesbian (this was early 80s to early 90s).

She was pretty good too.
 
2014-03-24 03:11:46 PM  

safetycap: allylloyd: eraser8: I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?

And my Weeners is "Why not?" My believe in God (includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is because I have faith. I don't need to physically touch, hear or see God to believe in God.

You didn't answer the question. "I have faith" is  HOW you believe in god not why.

Why don't you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns? You don't need to physically touch, hear or see them in order to believe in them. They also have stories written about them in books. So why YHWH instead of FSM/PU?



I'll answer for allylloydallylloyd believes in God because it makes life easier to cope with.  It's that simple.  For religious people it's not a matter of what's real or not it's a matter of what they have to tell themselves everyday in order to live their life.
 
2014-03-24 03:12:11 PM  

Dr Dreidel: eraser8: I'll try you...I've asked this question a couple of times already. I'm really interested in your answer:

If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?

I'll tell you why I don't begrudge others their faith, if that helps. Bear in mind, I spent 15 years in day schools, plus one in seminary, so I've had some time to think The Question over (so much so that I stopped entirely).

I think it was Will Rogers who said "When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on." That knot is "god" (for certain conceptions of the deity) - when you just can't even anymore, and you're about to lose your shiat, and nothing will ever be good or happy or right with your world ever again, you know that there is that backstop.

An ex-gf who had been hospitalized for mental health problems found this conception to be accurate for her experience - where she literally promised god (and her parents) that she'd hang on for "5 more minutes" every 5 minutes.

// everyone sees their deity differently, even within the same sect


Thanks for the response.    From my perspective, that's a view of a god that seems like a lucky rabbit's foot...although I'm sure it seems like a perfectly valid reason who believe it. People take comfort and reassurance in all sorts of things.  After all, Homer bought that rock because he was convinced it could keep tigers at bay.

I guessing I'm looking for a particular subset of religionists: those who think that their god hypothesis is the best explanation for the existence of humanity, and, well, existence.
 
2014-03-24 03:12:41 PM  

Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.


Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.
 
2014-03-24 03:13:25 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.

I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.


My son and I talk about the omnicient and omnipresent aspect of God. That means he literally knows all, past and future, nothing happens without him knowing, right? So why didn't he simply prevent the serpent from entering the garden? That would mean the whole original sin thing was a set up and that god is a giant douche.
 
2014-03-24 03:13:48 PM  

Mirrorz: We Answers Find in Our Genesis. Don't dead. Open Inside.

[i.imgur.com image 640x480]


hey look it's a bunch of abused children standing with their abuser.
 
2014-03-24 03:14:34 PM  

ciberido: Nabb1: What an asshole. Maher, too.

Send them to Thunderdome.

Yeah, I was thinking, one the one hand, Maher is a pretty big asshole.  On the other had, so far as I know he doesn't chortle at the thought of the people who disagree with him roasting in a pit of hellfire for all eternity.  So, he's got that going for him, anyway, which is nice.


Maher is definitely an asshole.

However

1) He wasn't an asshole in this particular instance
2) Ken Ham is an asshole raised to the asshole power. Every time I hear or see his name, I  wish upon him the fate of Kent Hovind, only including a good shanking or two
 
2014-03-24 03:14:39 PM  

Mugato: eraser8: If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?

Because people are afraid of mortality. That's really the only reason to worship God. I mean why else? As for the Noah story, from a screenwriting standpoint, it's the most ridiculous story in the Bible.


More than Onan pulling out because the kid wouldn't be his?
 
2014-03-24 03:16:00 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: eraser8: DROxINxTHExWIND: The tipping point for organized religion (not the existence of GOD)...

I'll try you...I've asked this question a couple of times already.  I'm really interested in your answer:

If you believe in a god, WHY do you believe in a god?

As, I noted in my earlier question, I've been thinking a lot lately about how religionists view the world and how atheists view the world -- and, whether the gap between those views can ever be bridged.


You know, I'll answer as honestly as I can...it's probably indoctrination, mixed with a little bit of "better to believe than to go to Hell" in the back of my mind. I've sat and pondered it myself. I have had life experiences where I felt that I was being protected. I fell into a coma when I was 6 months old and if not for a bunch of amazing circumstances, like my aunt just randomly deciding she wanted to visit me at my grandmother's house during her lunch break, only to find me in my crib having breathing problems, I would not be here. I've been shot at, been in major car accidents, and a lot of other shiat that I can't get into here. Was it all a coincidence that I made it through? Why was I worth saving? I don't know. But, it helps me to think that there is some order to life .I don't know how I would react upon realizing that after this, there is nothing. I've had too many people die around me to believe that the end of their life was just...the end. More than anything else, I think that belief in GOD is a coping mechanism. I'm hopeful this isn't all there is.


Thanks for answering that so eloquently. No snark at all. Good job, and I'm sure many other people feel the same way you do. Life is hard, and there are a lot of questions that we can't answer. It's easier to cope with those knowing something or someone is there helping you along the way. That's why I don't get upset at people who are religious and use it to better themselves. The ones who use it to pursue their own agendas by preying on that fragility on the other hand...
 
2014-03-24 03:16:08 PM  

formerfloozy: That would mean the whole original sin thing was a set up and that god is a giant douche.


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

-- Rand Paul
 
2014-03-24 03:16:14 PM  

Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.


Ken has three Gods.  Didn't you know?
 
2014-03-24 03:16:18 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.



I think its a too way street. For every, "you'll burn in Hell" guy out there, there is a "what kind of stupid farking moron believes in GOD" guy.


/Both are assholes, IMHO
 
2014-03-24 03:16:31 PM  

allylloyd: Catholics are Christians. And they don't pray to saints! They ask saints (and other people) to speak to God on their behalf. They aren't asking the saint to solve the problem. They are asking the saint help them get their message to God.


And some of the point of the Golden Calf story (and also Commandment #2) is that no intermediaries are ever needed, lest those become the objects of worship instead of the deity they represent.
 (I'm not arguing against your point or supporting it, just clarifying.)


// this is also the reason y'all really need to stop adding "in Jesus' name we pray" to supposedly "non-denominational" prayers
 
2014-03-24 03:18:14 PM  

formerfloozy: UncomfortableSilence: NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.

I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.

My son and I talk about the omnicient and omnipresent aspect of God. That means he literally knows all, past and future, nothing happens without him knowing, right? So why didn't he simply prevent the serpent from entering the garden? That would mean the whole original sin thing was a set up and that god is a giant douche.


The entire Old testament is basically the novel form of the next jackass movie with God playing Johnny Knoxville.

"Sacrifice your son to me!"
"Um OK, do I have to?"
"YES"
"alright, here goes..."
"Ha Ha just kidding, I just wanted to see if you would actually do it.  Hey Michael, get a load of this guy, he was going to kill his son just because I told him to. Oh stop crying you baby I stopped you in time."
 
2014-03-24 03:18:23 PM  

CanisNoir: mattharvest: i.e. whether he simply re-organized a pre-existing creation (this is related to the concepts in gnosticism). If Yahweh just re-organized creation, then Yahweh itself is a very different being than if it truly Created the universe.

Didn't the Gnostics believe that Yahweh was the result of a "mistake" or maybe I'm confusing that with Gnostic Christianity that believed Yahweh was a mistake and "evil" God while the God that gave us Jesus was the "loving God".

I'm not as familiar with super early Judiasm as I am with super early Christianity.


The Marcionists, the followers of Marcion of Sinope (Marcion sounds just like the little green men, which is really cool in my books) believed that Yhwh or Yaltaboath as they called him was a cruel and insane creator god who basically created the Universe so he could create people and then be a cruel dick to them for his own jollies.

The God Above Gods, The Alien God, The God Unknown,  Monad eventually got pretty sick of Yaltaboath bringing a lot of negative vibes around the place so he sent Jesus to earth to tell people "You know, if you stop worshipping that Yaltaboath asshole you can just hook up directly with Monad who will take you to heaven and get you away from that prick".

When people refer to the Gnostics with a capital G they're usually referring to Greek Gnostics but there were a whole shiatload of Gnostic sects. Basically the Gnostic sects believe you will know god not through the writings of man which will always be corrupted by men but through direct and personal revelation from god. Thus what one Gnostic sect believed was not what another Gnostic sect would believe.
 
2014-03-24 03:18:44 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.


I think its a too way street. For every, "you'll burn in Hell" guy out there, there is a "what kind of stupid farking moron believes in GOD" guy.


/Both are assholes, IMHO


Obligatory

imgs.xkcd.com
 
2014-03-24 03:19:23 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: You know, I'll answer as honestly as I can...it's probably indoctrination, mixed with a little bit of "better to believe than to go to Hell" in the back of my mind. I've sat and pondered it myself.


I can buy the indoctrination part.  That seems quite common.

As for your "better to believe that go to Hell," you've probably been told (or, I hope you have been) how flawed that reasoning is.  It's just not logically coherent.  Don't misunderstand; the fact that Pascal's Wager (your argument is named that after its most notable proponent, Blaise Pascal) is logically incoherent doesn't mean your god doesn't exist...but, the argument itself really can be thrown out as bad thinking.
 
2014-03-24 03:20:22 PM  

allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?


I see it like this - there are insufferable folk in both camps, but at least atheists "beliefs" are based on logical principals derived through the scientific method, tested and re-tested to the point of exceptionally high confidence.  The beliefs of literalist Christians are absurd by any metric.  They're in a minority though.  The large proportion of Christians do not believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago or that fossils are a trick by the devil.  I am often frustrated, though, by how often and how easily religious rhetoric and mindset retards our forward progress as a species.
 
2014-03-24 03:20:52 PM  

allylloyd: jigger: allylloyd: CHRISTIANS DO NOT PRAY TO SAINTS

No, but Catholics do.

Catholics are Christians. And they don't pray to saints! They ask saints (and other people) to speak to God on their behalf. They aren't asking the saint to solve the problem. They are asking the saint help them get their message to God.


//Case in point, Roger Staubach's Hail Mary pass. It wasn't praying TO Mary. He was praying that Mary would help him get his message to God. They need a touchdown to win the game.


Catholics venerate saints. Or that's at least how they refer to it.

To me it struck me as praying to, especailly when the nuns would start a prayer off and specifically say "let's pray to St John"  and the classrooms and churches were filled with graven images.
 
2014-03-24 03:22:25 PM  

Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.


Stay classy Christians. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about abortion, homosexuality, and women's rights.

See, when Christians stop trying to force me through LEGAL means to accept their beliefs and turn my beloved country into a biblical theocracy, I will stop giving a shiat.
 
2014-03-24 03:23:14 PM  

data195: allylloyd: TomD9938: allylloyd: I think Jesus's (also a Jew, never a Christian)

That's sort of like saying Lou Gehrig didnt die of Lou Gehrig's Disease

Have you ever read The Acts of the Apostles? It was never their intention to start a new religious faith, but rather tell other people about the lessons they learned from Jesus Christ (a teacher--a Jewish rabbi). This changed when Paul (Saul in Acts) started teaching because his focus was no longer Jewish traditions and laws, but rather the teachings of Jesus Christ.

//Also, Paul changed how he gave his message depending on the people he was talking to...

Wouldn't the title best be applied as the Acts of the Holy Spirit rather than the Apostles?  The Apostles were just the vessels used in this book and it was the Holy Spirit who was the dominant Figure.


The Holy Spirit first "appears" in the Old Testament. When you are baptized, you are blessed with the Holy Spirit. How you use this blessing is up to you. So no, it wasn't the acts of the Holy Spirit, but rather the Acts of the Apostles (who had been blessed by the Holy Spirit).
 
2014-03-24 03:23:19 PM  

eraser8: Magorn: The ONLY conception of hell I can even vaguely accept, as a Christian, is CS Lewis' idea.

In the hopes that you're a real, live Christian, I have to ask (I asked another Farker the same question...but, got no response):

WHY do you believe in a god?

As, I noted in my earlier question, I've been thinking a lot lately about how religionists view the world and how atheists view the world -- and, whether the gap between those views can ever be bridged.


Deep question with many branching possible answers.
We'll start with the obvious:

A behaviorist  would say that I believe in god because I was raised to and have never broken my operant conditioning

A sociologist would say it's because I was raised in a society where the vast majority of people do in some for or another

An Nuerobiologist would say it's because human intelligence evolved to seek patterns in random events and it is therefore easily deluded into seeing order and intent where none exists.

An atheist might merely pronounce me superstitious and deluded, emotionally immature and needing a crutch to face the great void of non-existence and the terror of the grave.


But that's all a dodge, because you asked me why *I* believe in God.  And to that I might say for the same reason I believe in your existence.   I have no direct evidence, but your post provides at least some indirect evidence that you exist, if not any precise clues about your nature.

In my own life I have seen/felt similar evidence of His/Her/It's existence.  I have, at the risk of being branded delusional or grandiose, felt God's presence more than once in a situation and even  been "spoken" to by him.  Which is to say  that I have sometimes felt that a presence beyond myself was advising me, aiding me, or  asking me to do something.   These messages were so markedly different from my own internal monologue that  as objectively as I am capable of being for  such a thing ,  feel as though they could not have arisen from me alone.  They were also always benevolent, and correct, and sometimes prevented great harm I could not have otherwise foreseen or allowed me to do something very good for anther person.   The origin of those messages I call God.  Since I was raised Roman Catholic, I also find it useful to broadly accept tier framework on the nature of God, rather than start my own from scratch, but where dogma offends my moral sensibilities or conscience, I reject the pre-packaged theology  in favor of my internal moral compass.

Please understand That I completely accept all of modern science as true, and I see absolutely no conflict with my faith in doing so.  Yes the entire universe came from one infinitely small  pinprick of subatomic matter and exploded 16 billion years ago into the known universe, Yes the interactions of those particles shaped our physical laws, and the layout of the galaxies, the formations of suns, planets, etc, and yes mutations of DNA starting with individual proteins led to all the incredible diversity of life on earth.   Where I part ways with a non-believer would be in the notion that it was all random.   Just as a computer  cannot truly produce a random number, I do not believe the universe can either..  The God I believe in exists outside of space and time as we understand them, and it is my belief that the moment of the explosion of the Big Bang was arranged by him to produce all the results of it we see today.  Results which he foresaw and intended,  for his own ineffable reasons, and that in human terms he is generally benevolent and concerned with us both individually and on a cosmic scale.
 
2014-03-24 03:24:20 PM  

The Flexecutioner: this helps quell my rage when I hear about this guy. i sometimes combine it with 2 deep breaths, in through the nose, out through the mouth. it's sublime hilarity calms me.


I usually just sit back and take solace in that I'm not that guy.
 
2014-03-24 03:24:32 PM  

formerfloozy: UncomfortableSilence: NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.

I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.

My son and I talk about the omnicient and omnipresent aspect of God. That means he literally knows all, past and future, nothing happens without him knowing, right? So why didn't he simply prevent the serpent from entering the garden? That would mean the whole original sin thing was a set up and that god is a giant douche.


Why'd he even create the tree?  Simply to throw temptation into the garden. " I've created this tree, don't eat the fruit from it,  or else you will be cast out."
 
2014-03-24 03:24:59 PM  

fruitloop: ...the bible says...the bible says...the bible says...

My book says Zeus created the world.  We both can't be right.


Too lazy to post the JPG, but "Yahweh promised to redeem evil people, Odin promised to destroy the frost giants.  I don't see any frost giants around."
 
2014-03-24 03:24:59 PM  

NightOwl2255: [i939.photobucket.com image 524x255]


Somehow, the treatment rape victims receive in certain Middle Eastern countries makes a lot more sense after reading that.
 
2014-03-24 03:28:20 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.


Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.
 
Ant
2014-03-24 03:28:28 PM  

allylloyd: Since I'm not an atheist, I can't speak for atheists. However, I am a Christian, so when I hear a Christian say something ignorant, two thoughts come to mind:
1) They have a different interpretation of Scripture than I do or
2) They are just really ignorant.


How do you know their interpretation isn't the correct one?
 
2014-03-24 03:28:48 PM  
Meh - it's just something religious people say when they're mad at somebody, and can't do anything about it.
Probably makes them feel better.
i don't think it's anything to get worked up about, and I don't get offended by it.
I can sympathize - it's frustrating to be pissed at somebody, and you can't do anything about it - they're bigger, or richer, or smarter, or prettier, and you can't get at them.
It would be a good feel to be able to believe you are going to get even with them in the great beyond.
 
2014-03-24 03:30:09 PM  
My God is all about love ...
img.fark.net
 
2014-03-24 03:30:27 PM  

eraser8: DROxINxTHExWIND: You know, I'll answer as honestly as I can...it's probably indoctrination, mixed with a little bit of "better to believe than to go to Hell" in the back of my mind. I've sat and pondered it myself.

I can buy the indoctrination part.  That seems quite common.

As for your "better to believe that go to Hell," you've probably been told (or, I hope you have been) how flawed that reasoning is.  It's just not logically coherent.  Don't misunderstand; the fact that Pascal's Wager (your argument is named that after its most notable proponent, Blaise Pascal) is logically incoherent doesn't mean your god doesn't exist...but, the argument itself really can be thrown out as bad thinking.



No, I definitely get that. Lol. I watch the Science Channel. They talk about the Earth's core a lot, but they never mentioned seeing anything resembling a goat-man when they send a remote camera down into a volcano. I think your problem is trying to attack the logic behind religion when religious people have already dismissed the need for tangible evidence of a Creator by saying that you just need faith. You're going to have a hard time convincing people that something most of us don't take literally is false because for most, their idea of Heaven, Hell, and GOD is personal. I imagine that there are things that I can't imagine. My vision of Hell is not neccesarily a burning place below the surface of the ground. Actually, I think my vision of Hell is the same as an athiest's vision of death. Nothing.
 
2014-03-24 03:31:14 PM  

Magorn: Just as a computer  cannot truly produce a random number, I do not believe the universe can either.


I'm not trying to call you out or be a prick I have an honest question;

Would you say that this belief means that the universe is determinant in nature? In other words since you don't believe in randomness that all actions are predetermined and that free will is an illusion?

If so how do you reconcile a determinant universe with an all powerful god?  If God is predestined to do something, knows what his actions are going to be, and has the power to do anything he likes could God change his mind?
 
2014-03-24 03:31:18 PM  

allylloyd: Sorry, but I'm not going to change my response to suit you.


I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.

Either you have a reason for believing in a particular god or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one god from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible gods to those that are currently worshiped, there are, at least, hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

Not everybody has a logical reason for believing in a god.  I can accept that...and, I suspect you fall into that category.

Whatever you choose to believe doesn't offend me.  I only asked the question because I was interested in the answer.  Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.
 
2014-03-24 03:32:43 PM  

CorruptDB: So it's a new convenant for things we want to do (eat pork, wear fabric blends, cut our sideburns, etc.) but still the old law for things that make us feel icky (like gay marriage). Gotcha. So why does an omnipotent, omniscient being even need to make a new deal (and sacrifice Himself to Himself)? Since he knows everything, wouldn't he know the old deal wouldn't work when he was making it?


You do realize that Matthew was a Jew who's audience was Jews, unlike some of the other Gospels who's audience were gentiles? It was in the interest of the author of Mattew to reprsent Christ as the epitome of Jewishness and as far as the Gospels go, it's the one where Christ appears to be the most "Jewish".

/Have to keep these things in context.
 
2014-03-24 03:32:54 PM  
"... a loving god who will set you on fire if you don't love him back"

I absolutely love this line.
 
2014-03-24 03:33:23 PM  
Why not believe the Demon-Sultan Azathoth? After all, Azathoth doesn't need you to believe in It in order for It not to believe in you.
 
2014-03-24 03:34:32 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.

I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.


Recognizing that we are arguing over the truths hidden in a creation story of a 6000 year old nomadic culture, I have always interpreted the Adam and Eve story thusly:  it is a metaphor for the moments humans gained sentience and self-awareness.   The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gives it away to me.  Can you ascribe "morality" to the actions of an animal except as an anthropomorphic delusion?  When a cat toys with its prey before killing it, is it "evil" or merely doing what cats are programmed to do?  Can you honestly say that any animal's actions whether it is your dog peeing on a rug or even that chimp who ate a woman;s face off, had a MORAL dimension?  That is, was good or evil, from the animal's perspective?

Humans alone have that intellectual capacity, so humans alone have the burden of acting contrary to their instincts to effectuate the greater good.  The expulsion from Eden was a loss of innocence, as an intelligent being can no longer live in the eternal "now' obeying nothing more than their instincts.   Instead they must thing and plan and create according to their own judgment, and worry about the future constantly.  The key to the eden story to me is that the snake did not lie,    We DID become like god, in that we now ere self-aware too (and in my theology thereby gained a soul).  We gained the capacity to do incredible good, or evil, and the choice was on our shoulders.   Old Catholic theology gets this, old hymns refer to the incident as " O happy fault. O NECESSARY Sin of Adam"
 
2014-03-24 03:35:00 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: formerfloozy: UncomfortableSilence: NightOwl2255: formerfloozy: Satanic_Hamster: Notice Ham doesn't even address Maher's point about the Flood.

You aren't supposed to question, just accept.
*snert*

CSB
I got kicked out of vacation bible school for asking about the garden of eden and original sin. I said that if Jesus died on the cross to wipe out our sins, why were women still punished for the original sin, and babies born into sin? I also wanted to know how if God knew everything, he didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and acted suprised when they admitted it. I was 12 years old when I realized I was being lied to and misled.
/csb

I got into trouble for asking where Cain's wife came from. My brother told me to ask, should have known it was going to be a problem.

I've angered many people who are big fans of the God has a plan for us approach.  I asked them about the whole Adam and Eve apple thing.  They give the whole free will speech.  Then I ask if God is all knowing, how did he not realize that giving them free will would result in them ignoring his plan and eating the apple anyway and why would he have punished them if he knew what would happen if he created them.  Then I watch them talk circles around the subject until they get angry and walk away or find some other excuse.

My son and I talk about the omnicient and omnipresent aspect of God. That means he literally knows all, past and future, nothing happens without him knowing, right? So why didn't he simply prevent the serpent from entering the garden? That would mean the whole original sin thing was a set up and that god is a giant douche.

Why'd he even create the tree?  Simply to throw temptation into the garden. " I've created this tree, don't eat the fruit from it,  or else you will be cast out."


No, he said "in that day that eat from it, you will die." So now he is an asshole AND a liar.
 
2014-03-24 03:36:23 PM  

extroverted_suicide: allylloyd: After reading some of these posts, I don't know whose stereotypes are worse, the Atheists or the Christians?

I see it like this - there are insufferable folk in both camps, but at least atheists "beliefs" are based on logical principals derived through the scientific method, tested and re-tested to the point of exceptionally high confidence.  The beliefs of literalist Christians are absurd by any metric.  They're in a minority though.  The large proportion of Christians do not believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago or that fossils are a trick by the devil.  I am often frustrated, though, by how often and how easily religious rhetoric and mindset retards our forward progress as a species.


^This X1000
 
2014-03-24 03:36:30 PM  

Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.

Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.


So long as Christians demand that their belief in creationism, of which no real scientific evidence can be provided, be taught along science in classes.  You are trying to force things on us.

So long as Christians demand that an entire minority population should not have equal rights because of your  faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

So long as you try to make it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not she has a child because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

So long as you try to prevent birth control from being provided in the insurance you provide as an employer or in insurance policies in general because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.
 
2014-03-24 03:36:41 PM  

Magorn: Please understand That I completely accept all of modern science as true, and I see absolutely no conflict with my faith in doing so.


That's very Catholic of you (and, by that, I mean of the Roman Church).  Thanks for the answer.
 
2014-03-24 03:37:02 PM  
I wish we could say we're going to look back on this and laugh, but this shiat ain't going away.

It's getting worse.
 
2014-03-24 03:37:33 PM  

vudukungfu: Facetious_Speciest: By nature, Christians are psychotically arrogant. It's the entire basis of their religion.
Farked in the head. They hear voices, and should not have access to weapons.

Period.
Also, they need to STFU around anyone while out in public.

Religion is like a gun or a dick.
Ok to have one.
Ok to be proud of it.
Not Ok to wave it around in public, or ram it down kids throats.

If your farking religion is so farking true, then you don't have to "Indoctrinate" children with it, they will discover it as true on their own.
Of course, if your religion is full of shait and made up fairy tales, and circular logic, then perhaps they won't bite, and "indoctrinating" them is your only hope of keeping a following.
Assholes.

Look

chief, if I don't indoctrinate my kids my way, some Farker like you indoctrinates them YOUR way. F that noise. I don't need YOU indoctrinating my kids so piss off. I will indoctinate my kids with whatever crazy stuff I feel like. It's called diversity, deal with it.
 
2014-03-24 03:38:14 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Look, I don't know what's so hard to understand here. God snaps his fingers and wills two full-grown adults into existence, but does a shiat job on their programming gets pissed off and visits terrible vengeance upon them, then later gets pissed off again and drowns everyone, and then he's still pissed about a rule he made up so he "sacrifices" (in that he dies, but he comes back a few days later, so it's not really a sacrifice) himself to himself in order to change that rule, and then because he's come off as such an asshole  in the story, in the sequel to the Old Testament they completely retcon him as happy loving funtime god, and the point here is that he loves you and sacrifices for you and wants to give you good things, but if you don't toe the line, he's gonna torture you forever and ever. So shape up and fly right. God loves you, but sometimes, baby, you just make him so mad.


So you're saying God is just like an IT manager?
 
2014-03-24 03:40:39 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: "better to believe than to go to Hell"


Pascal's Wager made a little sense in a Europe that had only one religion. But in a global world filled with myriad faiths, it falls apart. I've never had any inclination to believe in the supernatural, but if I were trying to hedge my bets on immortality, which religion should I pick to believe in?

/Hell director- I'm afraid it was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer.
 
2014-03-24 03:40:44 PM  
So of all the murderers, child rapists, and other assorted monsters in the human race, the #1 spot on God's shiat list is...Bill farking Mahr??
 
2014-03-24 03:41:13 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: Why'd he even create the tree? Simply to throw temptation into the garden. " I've created this tree, don't eat the fruit from it, or else you will be cast out."


What if Adam and Even had Obeyed God?
 
2014-03-24 03:41:16 PM  
eraser8

Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.

I think they are. Atheists have no reason to believe in the existence of deities. Theists either have a personal reason that's not demonstrable to others, or they're assuming existence on faith. The latter are hard to deal with, bu the former (those who have had what they consider to be a divine experience, broadly speaking) should be easy to deal with, as (unless they take their experience to mean more than it was) they have no reason to expect other people to believe what they believe.

More concretely, I've had what I consider to be divine interaction. To me, this suggests the possibility of the existence of other divinities, but I can't prove anything to anyone, so I don't expect them to care. It's like telling someone, "in my experience, Person X gives great head." You haven't had that particular experience, so why would I expect you to believe it? It would be silly. I can't expect you to change your own life based on my experiences (or lack thereof), any more than you can the opposite. Best we just concentrate on what we can agree on out of reason, like "hey, killing people without reason is a dick move," rather than arguing "hey, the god of avocados that you've never met DEMANDS YOUR COMPLIANCE!"
 
2014-03-24 03:41:24 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.

Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

So long as Christians demand that their belief in creationism, of which no real scientific evidence can be provided, be taught along science in classes.  You are trying to force things on us.


I'm neither Christian nor creationist. Try again.

So long as Christians demand that an entire minority population should not have equal rights because of your  faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I'm not Christian, and support equal rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to make it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not she has a child because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I don't have any faith, and I support reproductive rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to prevent birth control from being provided in the insurance you provide as an employer or in insurance policies in general because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

Nope, still not religious, and I support universal access to contraception.

You're not very good at this, are you?
 
2014-03-24 03:42:19 PM  

eraser8: allylloyd: Sorry, but I'm not going to change my response to suit you.

I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.

Either you have a reason for believing in a particular god or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one god from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible gods to those that are currently worshiped, there are, at least, hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

Not everybody has a logical reason for believing in a god.  I can accept that...and, I suspect you fall into that category.

Whatever you choose to believe doesn't offend me.  I only asked the question because I was interested in the answer.  Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.


I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

//At no point in my life have I ever been told: I must believe in God, I better believe in God or I should believe in God.
//I was raised in (and still a member of) a church that follows what's known as the Three Legged Stool 1)Scripture, 2) Tradition (Baptism/Eucharist) and 3) Reason (ask questions, never stop asking questions)
 
2014-03-24 03:43:15 PM  

Valiente: You know what God doesn't like? Ham.

You know what he does? Foreskins.

That'll do, Pig, that'll do.


img.fark.net
 
2014-03-24 03:43:35 PM  

JackieRabbit: It amazes me that so-calld Christians know nothing about the basic tenants of their own religion. Did no one ever tell them that Jesus supposedly came to deliver God's new covenant with Man: that the vengeful God had seen the error of his ways and that the new relationship would replace vengeance with unconditional love?


Well then, if he was wrong he is neither perfect nor all-knowing.  Therefore, why even call him "God"?
 
2014-03-24 03:43:40 PM  
Magorn:

Recognizing that we are arguing over the truths hidden in a creation story of a 6000 year old nomadic culture, I have always interpreted the Adam and Eve story thusly:  it is a metaphor for the moments humans gained sentience and self-awareness.   The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gives it away to me.  Can you ascribe "morality" to the actions of an animal except as an anthropomorphic delusion?  When a cat toys with its prey before killing it, is it "evil" or merely doing what cats are programmed to do?  Can you honestly say that any animal's actions whether it is your dog peeing on a rug or even that chimp who ate a woman;s face off, had a MORAL dimension?  That is, was good o ...

If it was necessary, then why is it a sin.  We were created, a tree with the knowledge of morality was placed in the garden, and we were forbidden to know that.  Why tempt us? Why give us free will if you know that what will happen will be the eating of fruit from said tree? Why punish them and all who descended from them for gaining that knowledge, if you claimed it to be necessary?
 
2014-03-24 03:44:38 PM  

Egoy3k: Magorn: Just as a computer  cannot truly produce a random number, I do not believe the universe can either.

I'm not trying to call you out or be a prick I have an honest question;

Would you say that this belief means that the universe is determinant in nature? In other words since you don't believe in randomness that all actions are predetermined and that free will is an illusion?

If so how do you reconcile a determinant universe with an all powerful god?  If God is predestined to do something, knows what his actions are going to be, and has the power to do anything he likes could God change his mind?


Well if you believe that god is outside of space time , yes he could change the universe according to his desires.  Would he?  I cannot presume to pronounce on something so far beyond my understanding.   As to the free will question, it is a difficult one and one i have never worked out a satisfactory answer to.  I first wrestled with it all the way back during my confirmation days (12-13) and made the mistake of engaging my instructor, an Irish Jesuit on this very question.  His answer was that free will is absolute, and in all things we have a true and meaningful choice, but the omniscience of God makes him also a perfect judge of human nature, so he knows what choice we will make before we make it. (and since he was a Jesuit, he further postulated that God alone could know the speed AND position of any particle)

Not sure that works for me entirely, but it is AN answer anyway
 
2014-03-24 03:44:46 PM  

RedTank: safetycap: allylloyd: eraser8: I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?

And my Weeners is "Why not?" My believe in God (includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is because I have faith. I don't need to physically touch, hear or see God to believe in God.

You didn't answer the question. "I have faith" is  HOW you believe in god not why.

Why don't you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns? You don't need to physically touch, hear or see them in order to believe in them. They also have stories written about them in books. So why YHWH instead of FSM/PU?


I'll answer for allylloyd.  allylloyd believes in God because it makes life easier to cope with.  It's that simple.  For religious people it's not a matter of what's real or not it's a matter of what they have to tell themselves everyday in order to live their life.


KEEP YOUR SMUG ANSWERS TO YOURSELF! I can talk for myself--I don't need people like you talking for me.


//Along with being a Christian, I can also be a NYer (when necessary). NY women aren't afraid to kick someone's ass!
 
2014-03-24 03:46:12 PM  

Rueened: UncomfortableSilence: Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.

Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

So long as Christians demand that their belief in creationism, of which no real scientific evidence can be provided, be taught along science in classes.  You are trying to force things on us.

I'm neither Christian nor creationist. Try again.

So long as Christians demand that an entire minority population should not have equal rights because of your  faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I'm not Christian, and support equal rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to make it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not she has a child because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I don't have any faith, and I support reproductive rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to prevent birth control from being provided in the insurance you provide as an employer or in insurance policies in general because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

Nope, still not religious, and I support universal access to contraception.

You're not very good at this, are you?


So your not religious, then why biatch about atheists?  Ah, so you're a troll.  Good to know I can ignore you.
 
2014-03-24 03:46:28 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.


it's basic "carrot and stick" psychology.

back when the smart people were figuring out how to control the not-so-smart people they developed this method and it's worked ever since.

they're basically controlling them and taking their money in exchange for some snake oil.
 
2014-03-24 03:46:35 PM  

allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...


Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."
 
2014-03-24 03:47:25 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: I think your problem is trying to attack the logic behind religion when religious people have already dismissed the need for tangible evidence of a Creator by saying that you just need faith.


I think you misunderstand.  I attacked the logic of Pascal's Wager.  I didn't attack the logic behind religion...unless you consider asking why a believer believes is, itself, an attack.

Pascal's Wager is simply sloppy thinking and logically incoherent.  But, as I said earlier, the defects in Pascal's Wager aren't important to the validity of your god hypothesis.

DROxINxTHExWIND: I watch the Science Channel. They talk about the Earth's core a lot, but they never mentioned seeing anything resembling a goat-man when they send a remote camera down into a volcano.


Again, you misunderstand (I say again even though this part of your post came first) The lack of evidence for a hell is not really relevant to my point.  The fact that Pascal's Wager is bad reasoning has nothing to do with whether there is a hell and, if there is one, whether it has a physical location.  As I said, Pascal's Wager is LOGICALLY flawed, not just empirically so.  One can start with the premise that a hell (whether physical or metaphorical) exists and Pascal's Wager is STILL a terrible, terrible argument.
 
2014-03-24 03:49:03 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: Rueneed: Nope, still not religious, and I support universal access to contraception.

You're not very good at this, are you?


So your not religious, then why biatch about atheists?  Ah, so you're a troll.  Good to know I can ignore you.


*inb4 tipped fedora*
 
2014-03-24 03:49:34 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: Magorn:

Recognizing that we are arguing over the truths hidden in a creation story of a 6000 year old nomadic culture, I have always interpreted the Adam and Eve story thusly:  it is a metaphor for the moments humans gained sentience and self-awareness.   The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gives it away to me.  Can you ascribe "morality" to the actions of an animal except as an anthropomorphic delusion?  When a cat toys with its prey before killing it, is it "evil" or merely doing what cats are programmed to do?  Can you honestly say that any animal's actions whether it is your dog peeing on a rug or even that chimp who ate a woman;s face off, had a MORAL dimension?  That is, was good o ...

If it was necessary, then why is it a sin.  We were created, a tree with the knowledge of morality was placed in the garden, and we were forbidden to know that.  Why tempt us? Why give us free will if you know that what will happen will be the eating of fruit from said tree? Why punish them and all who descended from them for gaining that knowledge, if you claimed it to be necessary?


Depends how you define sin and punishment.   You could say it was "original sin" merely because it gave us the CAPACITY to sin, which is to say chose to do evil and then the "punishment" then is not so much the wrath of god but the burden of that responsibility , that once we start on the path to taking our moral judgments for ourselves there is no going back, and it is a heavy burden, and one that has caused great pain and suffering for us as a race, but also all the works of mankind, all out art our science etc.   TO me its the metaphor for humans taking the first steps on the long road to becoming the inheritors of Creation, sentient being with near godlike abilities to understand and manipulate creation.
 
2014-03-24 03:49:40 PM  

Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.


No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?
 
2014-03-24 03:50:22 PM  

Ant: allylloyd: Since I'm not an atheist, I can't speak for atheists. However, I am a Christian, so when I hear a Christian say something ignorant, two thoughts come to mind:
1) They have a different interpretation of Scripture than I do or
2) They are just really ignorant.

How do you know their interpretation isn't the correct one?


Where do I use the word CORRECT? I didn't. I said DIFFERENT interpretation. I will know which one was correct after I talk with God.
 
2014-03-24 03:50:37 PM  

Cheron: The lake of fire is only the half of it.  You are force by all sorts of demon to do acts of perversion. Think about clouds and harps or acts of perversion; no brainer


Which is why a lot of the perverts are Christians. They do it now, say, "I believe in Jesus" the moment they kick the bucket and then go to the clouds and harps, never ever having the chance to do perverted things again.

Heaven for climate, hell for society
                                 - Mark Twain
 
2014-03-24 03:50:44 PM  

Ghastly: CanisNoir: mattharvest: i.e. whether he simply re-organized a pre-existing creation (this is related to the concepts in gnosticism). If Yahweh just re-organized creation, then Yahweh itself is a very different being than if it truly Created the universe.

Didn't the Gnostics believe that Yahweh was the result of a "mistake" or maybe I'm confusing that with Gnostic Christianity that believed Yahweh was a mistake and "evil" God while the God that gave us Jesus was the "loving God".

I'm not as familiar with super early Judiasm as I am with super early Christianity.

The Marcionists, the followers of Marcion of Sinope (Marcion sounds just like the little green men, which is really cool in my books) believed that Yhwh or Yaltaboath as they called him was a cruel and insane creator god who basically created the Universe so he could create people and then be a cruel dick to them for his own jollies.

The God Above Gods, The Alien God, The God Unknown,  Monad eventually got pretty sick of Yaltaboath bringing a lot of negative vibes around the place so he sent Jesus to earth to tell people "You know, if you stop worshipping that Yaltaboath asshole you can just hook up directly with Monad who will take you to heaven and get you away from that prick".

When people refer to the Gnostics with a capital G they're usually referring to Greek Gnostics but there were a whole shiatload of Gnostic sects. Basically the Gnostic sects believe you will know god not through the writings of man which will always be corrupted by men but through direct and personal revelation from god. Thus what one Gnostic sect believed was not what another Gnostic sect would believe.



www.animated-gifs.eu
 
2014-03-24 03:51:18 PM  

Rueened: You're not very good at this, are you?


Oh look, we have a Pedantic Sematicist on our hands.
 
2014-03-24 03:54:02 PM  
UncomfortableSilence: So your not religious, then why biatch about atheists?  Ah, so you're a troll.  Good to know I can ignore you.

Why bother asking questions when you *think* you know the answers? Does it amuse you?
 
2014-03-24 03:54:11 PM  
Let's look at it this way:

If you believe in the Judeo-Christian religion anymore, you are enabling a patriarchal conservative ideology.

Depends on whether you're cool with that.

No, Christians aren't liberals. Unless you consider a Blue Dog Democrat a liberal.
 
2014-03-24 03:54:25 PM  

CorruptDB: JackieRabbit: It amazes me that so-calld Christians know nothing about the basic tenants of their own religion. Did no one ever tell them that Jesus supposedly came to deliver God's new covenant with Man: that the vengeful God had seen the error of his ways and that the new relationship would replace vengeance with unconditional love?

Matthew 5:17-18: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

So it's a new convenant for things we want to do (eat pork, wear fabric blends, cut our sideburns, etc.) but still the old law for things that make us feel icky (like gay marriage).  Gotcha.  So why does an omnipotent, omniscient being even need to make a new deal (and sacrifice Himself to Himself)?  Since he knows everything, wouldn't he know the old deal wouldn't work when he was making it?

Was not appearing before any humans part of the new deal?  It seems like in the OT God was all over the place - ordering people to sacrifice their children, making bets with Satan, killing firstborn infants, etc.  These days we are lucky if he sends a pic of the chick he knocked up (no, they weren't married - she was married to another guy but he was apparently OK with it) on a tortilla or a freeway overpass.  Why the big change in character in such a short time?


I was not trying to imply that the made-up religion of Christianity was logical or rational. It is supposed to be a religion of peace and love. But unfortunately, it never has been.
 
2014-03-24 03:54:31 PM  

Astorix: [img.fark.net image 473x720]


You should reread that story. You've misunderstood it.

// it's similar to why we get pissed off that True Conservatives who Hate Food Stamps have themselves used food stamps
 
2014-03-24 03:54:34 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?


You have a fun family! Party at Gecko's house!
 
2014-03-24 03:54:38 PM  

Rueened: UncomfortableSilence: Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.

Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

So long as Christians demand that their belief in creationism, of which no real scientific evidence can be provided, be taught along science in classes.  You are trying to force things on us.

I'm neither Christian nor creationist. Try again.

So long as Christians demand that an entire minority population should not have equal rights because of your  faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I'm not Christian, and support equal rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to make it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not she has a child because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I don't have any faith, and I support reproductive rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to prevent birth control from being provided in the insurance you provide as an employer or in insurance policies in general because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

Nope, still not religious, and I support universal access to contraception.

You're not very good at this, are you?


I am religious and I agree with you on every point.


//I have faith that people will register and vote in November!
 
2014-03-24 03:54:41 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?


None of those things are my concern, really. Why are you asking me?
 
2014-03-24 03:54:43 PM  

allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.


That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.
 
2014-03-24 03:55:19 PM  
Whenever I see Bill Maher on TV, I am immediately reminded of this:

img2.wikia.nocookie.net

"Republicans are so stupid."
- "AAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!"
"I hate republicans."
- "WOOOOOOOOOH!"
 
2014-03-24 03:56:08 PM  

eraser8: allylloyd: Sorry, but I'm not going to change my response to suit you.

I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.

Either you have a reason for believing in a particular god or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one god from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible gods to those that are currently worshiped, there are, at least, hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

Not everybody has a logical reason for believing in a god.  I can accept that...and, I suspect you fall into that category.

Whatever you choose to believe doesn't offend me.  I only asked the question because I was interested in the answer.  Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.


My guess that most people's would go like this:


1) Deference to authority - parents, priest, particularly when indoctrinated from childhood
2) Apophenia - I prayed and shortly after a good thing happened, the next day I didn't pray and a bad thing happened, therefore someone must be answering my prayers
 3) Gambler's Fallacy - I have already invested lots of time/effort into believing X, so it must be true, otherwise I am an idiot
 
2014-03-24 03:57:04 PM  

GameSprocket: You have a fun family! Party at Gecko's house!


BYOB and S.

Rueened: None of those things are my concern, really. Why are you asking me?


Because you made the assertion that religion is not being forced up [me].
 
2014-03-24 03:57:49 PM  

Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?

None of those things are my concern, really. Why are you asking me?


Why do free-thinking people rustle your jimmies so much?
 
2014-03-24 03:58:09 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Actually, I think my vision of Hell is the same as an athiest's vision of death. Nothing.


You mean exactly how it was before we were conceived? I don't remember it being too bad.
 
2014-03-24 03:58:40 PM  

forever_blowing_bubbles: So you're saying God is just like an IT manager?


Sorta. He built the infrastructure and how it works together, but beyond the  nuts and bolts of keeping everything moving, I doubt he gets into the content of the packets, so to speak. Assuming he exists.
 
2014-03-24 03:59:01 PM  

NightOwl2255: [i939.photobucket.com image 524x255]


img.fark.net
 
2014-03-24 03:59:38 PM  

whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."


How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.
 
2014-03-24 03:59:39 PM  

Ed Grubermann: allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.


Logically, though, how would you even know until it happens?
 
2014-03-24 04:00:10 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Egoy3k: NateAsbestos: Secret Agent X23: I dunno, Ken...that wording sounds awfully polytheistic to me.

Yeah, what's this "a" God nonsense?

But then again, doesn't the first commandment tacitly admit the existence of other gods?

Yes, either that or it acknowledges that gods are created by humans.  Putting it into context with the story of the golden calf it seems pretty obvious that those guys were pretty ready to invent themselves a god.

The thing I find odd about that commandment is that the "no other god's  before me" seems to imply that other gods are just fine, so long as Yahweh is at the top of the pantheon. I have heard that there is evidence that Judaism started out as polytheistic, so maybe this is a holdover from that period and represents a transition to eventual monotheism as future generations interpreted that commandment more strictly.

Or maybe the context is more obvious in the original Hebrew and it really does mean, "no other gods, period".

/Shrug


From what I remember, they weren't so much polytheistic as henotheistic. They worshiped one god, but acknowledged many. A quick google shows turns up this. So you're not alone in your thinking.
 
2014-03-24 04:00:52 PM  

genner: DROxINxTHExWIND: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Stay classy, atheists. It's amusing to see you getting so worked up about something you don't believe in.

Though I may not believe in any god, I also - and as emphatically - believe they shouldn't be forced upon me either.


I think its a too way street. For every, "you'll burn in Hell" guy out there, there is a "what kind of stupid farking moron believes in GOD" guy.


/Both are assholes, IMHO

Obligatory

[imgs.xkcd.com image 373x330]


What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" thinks they sound like
You poor silly people arguing over stuff you can't prove. If only you were as enlightened and as open minded as me, you'd see how foolish you are. I hope you'll bring it up to my level, for your sake.

What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" sound like to to anyone who has studied religion.
I am completely unfamiliar with even the most basic of theological terms but I'm a contrarian with a superiority complex so I'll just make up my own definitions for words then apply them to everyone else in ways that make me look superior and them inferior.

A person who is a gnostic is one who <i>knows</i> god(s) exist. The root is the greek word "gnosis" which means knowledge.
A person who is agnostic is one who does not <i>know</i> if god exists. It's translates literally as "without knowledge".

A person who is a theist is one who believes in god(s). The root is from the greek word "theos" which means god.
A person who has no belief in god(s) is an atheist. It literally translates as "without god".

If you believe you can prove god(s) exist then your beliefs are apodeictic. This is from the greek verb
apodeiknunai  which means "to demonstrate".
If you believe you cannot prove god(s) exist then your beliefs are nonapodeictic.

So a person who does not know if god(s) exist, does not believe it can be proven god(s) exist, but does not believe in god(s) is a nonapodeictic, agnostic atheist.

A person who does not know if god(s) exist, does not believe it can be proven god(s) exist, but still has a belief that god(s) exist is an nonapodeictic, agnostic theist.

A person who believes that we can't know anything about god period and that since we can't know anything about it all beliefs and ensuing discussion of those beliefs are a waste of time is an apatheist. Basically it's "I don't know, and I can't even know what I don't know so why the fark bother with it at all".

Most Capital-Letter-A Agnostics fall into one of those categories.
 
2014-03-24 04:01:10 PM  

Magorn: UncomfortableSilence: Magorn:

Recognizing that we are arguing over the truths hidden in a creation story of a 6000 year old nomadic culture, I have always interpreted the Adam and Eve story thusly:  it is a metaphor for the moments humans gained sentience and self-awareness.   The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gives it away to me.  Can you ascribe "morality" to the actions of an animal except as an anthropomorphic delusion?  When a cat toys with its prey before killing it, is it "evil" or merely doing what cats are programmed to do?  Can you honestly say that any animal's actions whether it is your dog peeing on a rug or even that chimp who ate a woman;s face off, had a MORAL dimension?  That is, was good o ...

If it was necessary, then why is it a sin.  We were created, a tree with the knowledge of morality was placed in the garden, and we were forbidden to know that.  Why tempt us? Why give us free will if you know that what will happen will be the eating of fruit from said tree? Why punish them and all who descended from them for gaining that knowledge, if you claimed it to be necessary?

Depends how you define sin and punishment.   You could say it was "original sin" merely because it gave us the CAPACITY to sin, which is to say chose to do evil and then the "punishment" then is not so much the wrath of god but the burden of that responsibility , that once we start on the path to taking our moral judgments for ourselves there is no going back, and it is a heavy burden, and one that has caused great pain and suffering for us as a race, but also all the works of mankind, all out art our science etc.   TO me its the metaphor for humans taking the first steps on the long road to becoming the inheritors of Creation, sentient being with near godlike abilities to understand and manipulate creation.


Reasonable argument.
 
2014-03-24 04:01:50 PM  

Magorn: Egoy3k: Magorn: Just as a computer  cannot truly produce a random number, I do not believe the universe can either.

I'm not trying to call you out or be a prick I have an honest question;

Would you say that this belief means that the universe is determinant in nature? In other words since you don't believe in randomness that all actions are predetermined and that free will is an illusion?

If so how do you reconcile a determinant universe with an all powerful god?  If God is predestined to do something, knows what his actions are going to be, and has the power to do anything he likes could God change his mind?

Well if you believe that god is outside of space time , yes he could change the universe according to his desires.  Would he?  I cannot presume to pronounce on something so far beyond my understanding.   As to the free will question, it is a difficult one and one i have never worked out a satisfactory answer to.  I first wrestled with it all the way back during my confirmation days (12-13) and made the mistake of engaging my instructor, an Irish Jesuit on this very question.  His answer was that free will is absolute, and in all things we have a true and meaningful choice, but the omniscience of God makes him also a perfect judge of human nature, so he knows what choice we will make before we make it. (and since he was a Jesuit, he further postulated that God alone could know the speed AND position of any particle)

Not sure that works for me entirely, but it is AN answer anyway


Thanks. It's a pretty hard question to answer and ascribing omnipotence to God causes a paradox that in my opinion cannot be fully reconciled unless you posit either a second actor who is unknowable to god (so basically an Atreides) or that god does not know himself but that just makes god the single source of randomness in the universe which is pretty much just using a different word for  nature. Like Is aid that is just like, my opinion, man. I don't believe in God so my views on the metaphysics of gods are neither important nor are they based on particularly deep thought.

/If we speak softly we may not wake him
 
2014-03-24 04:02:28 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Because you made the assertion that religion is not being forced up [me].


In fact, he stated "no-one is forcing anything on you".

It would seem that Rueened believes himself to be omniscient. Perhaps this is the alt of God! Who else could possibly know that absolutely "no-one" is trying to force "anything" on you?

Well, I am convinced. Guess I need to go repress some gays.
 
2014-03-24 04:02:48 PM  

allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.


You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.
 
2014-03-24 04:04:20 PM  

Rueened: I'm neither Christian nor creationist. Try again.

So long as Christians demand that an entire minority population should not have equal rights because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I'm not Christian, and support equal rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to make it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not she has a child because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

I don't have any faith, and I support reproductive rights for all. Try again.

So long as you try to prevent birth control from being provided in the insurance you provide as an employer or in insurance policies in general because of your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on us.

Nope, still not religious, and I support universal access to contraception.

You're not very good at this, are you?



The point wasn't to refute your beliefs, it was to refute your statement that Christianity isn't forced on anyone in this country (implying that we shouldn't be so upset about it).
 
2014-03-24 04:05:01 PM  

Ed Grubermann: allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.


I beg to differ! I had a partial left temporal lobectomy! Part of my brain is gone! I also have a benign brain tumor.
I am very much alive.
 
2014-03-24 04:05:58 PM  

eraser8: GnomePaladin: No Such Agency: The null hypothesis is that a creation implies a Creator.

My lower back feels looser just reading that stretch.  Thanks!

It's actually not a terrible argument.  But, it's flawed.

There seems to be an implicit assumption that everything that exists was created.


It's a by-product of been obligate tool users: because we create things for a purpose, we assume that all things were created for a purpose. It's hard for some of us to understand that most of the universe came about through mindless, purposeless processes. Hell, even when we try to describe these processes we use loaded language that makes them sound directed and purposeful.
 
2014-03-24 04:06:07 PM  

Astorix: Valiente: You know what God doesn't like? Ham.

You know what he does? Foreskins.

That'll do, Pig, that'll do.

[img.fark.net image 473x720]


this is why i find it amusing when christians or jews make fun of scientologists.
 
2014-03-24 04:06:31 PM  

Ghastly: What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" thinks they sound like
You poor silly people arguing over stuff you can't prove. If only you were as enlightened and as open minded as me, you'd see how foolish you are. I hope you'll bring it up to my level, for your sake.

What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" sound like to to anyone who has studied religion.
I am completely unfamiliar with even the most basic of theological terms but I'm a contrarian with a superiority complex so I'll just make up my own definitions for words then apply them to everyone else in ways that make me look superior and them inferior.


I think they have a right to take that position. Sure it sounds smug and disrespectful, but for centuries religion has not only been an unquestionable paradigm, but even questioning it has brought severe punishment and hardship for those who dared.

It's no different today. I mean hell, you have to be a CHRISTIAN to be President of this country.

Get over it.
 
2014-03-24 04:06:44 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: eraser8

Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.

I think they are. Atheists have no reason to believe in the existence of deities. Theists either have a personal reason that's not demonstrable to others, or they're assuming existence on faith. The latter are hard to deal with, bu the former (those who have had what they consider to be a divine experience, broadly speaking) should be easy to deal with, as (unless they take their experience to mean more than it was) they have no reason to expect other people to believe what they believe.


I'm not asking whether atheists and religionists can peacefully coexist. I have no doubt that they can...even if it's the case, in many parts of the world, that a rapprochement hasn't been reached (I'm looking at you, Middle East -- and at you, Lower Alabama).

My current thinking is that the difficulty of religionists to understand atheists and the difficulty of atheists to understand religionists stems from a basic difference in the assumptions each one brings to his analysis of reality.  Of course, it's difficult to get many people to admit they start with assumptions in the first place, so that makes it even tougher to sort out.  So, I'm actually pretty pessimistic about whether the views can be bridged.
 
2014-03-24 04:07:04 PM  
Sadly, politics is where religion is often "forced" upon American society.  The biggest one right now?  There are politicians who claim climate change can't exist because God gave man dominion over the Earth and promised not to kill everyone again like in the Flood, therefore it's impossible for man to be destroying the Earth.
 
2014-03-24 04:08:50 PM  

Trivia Jockey: Sadly, politics is where religion is often "forced" upon American society.  The biggest one right now?  There are politicians who claim climate change can't exist because God gave man dominion over the Earth and promised not to kill everyone again like in the Flood, therefore it's impossible for man to be destroying the Earth.


Pretty sure that without politics, there are still way way too many churches in the small town I live. It's everywhere whether I want it or not.
 
2014-03-24 04:09:19 PM  

allylloyd: You don't have to believe in God for God to believe in you.


Is anyone else as tired as I am of the "reasonable" christians who come to Fark to lecture everyone and post limp doggerel while imagining it to be profound?
 
2014-03-24 04:09:32 PM  

whidbey: Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?

None of those things are my concern, really. Why are you asking me?

Why do free-thinking people rustle your jimmies so much?


Apart from their smugness, arrogance, narrow-mindedness and intolerance...?

Oh, nothing I can put my finger on really.
 
2014-03-24 04:10:37 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: You're not very good at this, are you?

Oh look, we have a Pedantic Sematicist on our hands.


*runs off to wash hands*


no no no no no no no no
 
2014-03-24 04:10:44 PM  

Rueened: whidbey: Rueened: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?

None of those things are my concern, really. Why are you asking me?

Why do free-thinking people rustle your jimmies so much?

Apart from their smugness, arrogance, narrow-mindedness and intolerance...?

Oh, nothing I can put my finger on really.


Not surprised. What else do you find irritating about liberals?
 
2014-03-24 04:10:50 PM  
"A behaviorist would say that I believe in god because I was raised to and have never broken my operant conditioning

A sociologist would say it's because I was raised in a society where the vast majority of people do in some for or another

An Nuerobiologist would say it's because human intelligence evolved to seek patterns in random events and it is therefore easily deluded into seeing order and intent where none exists.

An atheist might merely pronounce me superstitious and deluded, emotionally immature and needing a crutch to face the great void of non-existence and the terror of the grave."

What if you're just stupid?
 
2014-03-24 04:11:26 PM  

whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.


You can believe that if you want. I really don't care. But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.
 
2014-03-24 04:12:23 PM  

Trivia Jockey: The point wasn't to refute your beliefs, it was to refute your statement that Christianity isn't forced on anyone in this country (implying that we shouldn't be so upset about it).


What beliefs? I already said I'm not religious, shocking as that may sound.

And no-one's forced to be Christian... I mean, do ever listen to yourself when you talk, or does it kind of drift in and out like you've got tinnitus or something?
 
2014-03-24 04:12:55 PM  

whidbey: Ghastly: What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" thinks they sound like
You poor silly people arguing over stuff you can't prove. If only you were as enlightened and as open minded as me, you'd see how foolish you are. I hope you'll bring it up to my level, for your sake.

What "I'm a Capital-Letter-A Agnostic" sound like to to anyone who has studied religion.
I am completely unfamiliar with even the most basic of theological terms but I'm a contrarian with a superiority complex so I'll just make up my own definitions for words then apply them to everyone else in ways that make me look superior and them inferior.

I think they have a right to take that position. Sure it sounds smug and disrespectful, but for centuries religion has not only been an unquestionable paradigm, but even questioning it has brought severe punishment and hardship for those who dared.

It's no different today. I mean hell, you have to be a CHRISTIAN to be President of this country.

Get over it.


It's not a nonapodeictic, agnostic atheist nor a nonapodeictic, agnostic theist, nor even an apatheist position I take umbrage with but the further pollution of the English language with vagary and dilution for the purpose of setting one up as a special little snowflake, superior to all others.

Words have meaning, and they should use them. Those who cannot speak clearly cannot think clearly and those who cannot think clearly run the risk of having others think for them.
 
2014-03-24 04:15:16 PM  

allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.

You can believe that if you want. I really don't care.


Of course you care about it. You're that insecure about your belief.

But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

No, I said your position was illogical. And it still is.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.

Because questioning tiresome obsolete beliefs and illogical positions= bullying

Got it.
 
2014-03-24 04:15:27 PM  

allylloyd: RedTank: safetycap: allylloyd: eraser8: I have some thoughts on it...but, I'd like to get the opinion of a real life religionist on the matter, so I have to ask: WHY do you believe that a god exists?

And my Weeners is "Why not?" My believe in God (includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit) is because I have faith. I don't need to physically touch, hear or see God to believe in God.

You didn't answer the question. "I have faith" is  HOW you believe in god not why.

Why don't you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns? You don't need to physically touch, hear or see them in order to believe in them. They also have stories written about them in books. So why YHWH instead of FSM/PU?


I'll answer for allylloyd.  allylloyd believes in God because it makes life easier to cope with.  It's that simple.  For religious people it's not a matter of what's real or not it's a matter of what they have to tell themselves everyday in order to live their life.

KEEP YOUR SMUG ANSWERS TO YOURSELF! I can talk for myself--I don't need people like you talking for me.


//Along with being a Christian, I can also be a NYer (when necessary). NY women aren't afraid to kick someone's ass!


If you agreed a lot more athiests would respect you for your honesty. There is no shame in wanting to cope with pain.
 
2014-03-24 04:17:18 PM  

whidbey: Not surprised. What else do you find irritating about liberals?


Also not surprised that you crossed out the relevant part of my statement and pretended that I'd never said it.

Although you're supposed to delete it before quoting - you're losing your touch.

And what gives you the right to assume it's about liberal vs conservative? Why do you assume I'm a conservative?
 
2014-03-24 04:17:24 PM  

Rueened: Apart from their smugness, arrogance, narrow-mindedness and intolerance...?

Oh, nothing I can put my finger on really.


- Are you asserting that the list of things (Blue Laws, abortion restrictions, legality of gay marriage) I mentioned don't exist?

- If you agree that they exist, are you asserting they their existence is *not* due to religion?

- If you agree that they owe their existence to religion, are you asserting that they - as laws - are not being forced upon [me]?
 
2014-03-24 04:17:39 PM  

Ghastly: It's not a nonapodeictic, agnostic atheist nor a nonapodeictic, agnostic theist, nor even an apatheist position I take umbrage with but the further pollution of the English language with vagary and dilution for the purpose of setting one up as a special little snowflake, superior to all others.


I'd still urge you to get over it. And people who continue to question centuries of oppressive ideology are special to me, if anything, just for doing it.
 
2014-03-24 04:18:24 PM  

Rueened: And no-one's forced to be Christian... I mean, do ever listen to yourself when you talk, or does it kind of drift in and out like you've got tinnitus or something?



I guess I need to take you back to your comment:

Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

The person responding to this comment pointed out a number of ways that Christianity (or at least certain aspects of it) IS forced upon all of us.  In what we believe are very negative ways.  Your particular religious beliefs or lack thereof are totally irrelevant.
 
2014-03-24 04:18:56 PM  

Egoy3k: Magorn: Egoy3k: Magorn: Just as a computer  cannot truly produce a random number, I do not believe the universe can either.

I'm not trying to call you out or be a prick I have an honest question;

Would you say that this belief means that the universe is determinant in nature? In other words since you don't believe in randomness that all actions are predetermined and that free will is an illusion?

If so how do you reconcile a determinant universe with an all powerful god?  If God is predestined to do something, knows what his actions are going to be, and has the power to do anything he likes could God change his mind?

Well if you believe that god is outside of space time , yes he could change the universe according to his desires.  Would he?  I cannot presume to pronounce on something so far beyond my understanding.   As to the free will question, it is a difficult one and one i have never worked out a satisfactory answer to.  I first wrestled with it all the way back during my confirmation days (12-13) and made the mistake of engaging my instructor, an Irish Jesuit on this very question.  His answer was that free will is absolute, and in all things we have a true and meaningful choice, but the omniscience of God makes him also a perfect judge of human nature, so he knows what choice we will make before we make it. (and since he was a Jesuit, he further postulated that God alone could know the speed AND position of any particle)

Not sure that works for me entirely, but it is AN answer anyway

Thanks. It's a pretty hard question to answer and ascribing omnipotence to God causes a paradox that in my opinion cannot be fully reconciled unless you posit either a second actor who is unknowable to god (so basically an Atreides) or that god does not know himself but that just makes god the single source of randomness in the universe which is pretty much just using a different word for  nature. Like Is aid that is just like, my opinion, man. I don't believe in God so my ...


You are not alone.  It's a key unanswered question/logical flaw in the whole system and it has been wresetled with mightily by religious scholar.   Most notably, in the Juedo-christian tradition, it was attempting to wrestle with this paradox that led to the  d the Kabbalah and by extension many of the Gnostic interpretations of Christianity.

God is all powerful, they said, so all he had to do to create the universe was to have a desire to do so.  But God is also eternal, unchanging and perfect, ergo God could not HAVE a desire since desire implies imperfection.   Ergo, the work of creation must not have been done by GOD by by lesser being who were each an ASPECT of god called Emanations   and it was those that created the universe (and all sorts of lesser orders of angels.who wereemanations of the emanations. (if this is starting to sound awfully Hindu, well that may not be total coincidence)
 
2014-03-24 04:20:24 PM  

whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.

You can believe that if you want. I really don't care.

Of course you care about it. You're that insecure about your belief.

But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

No, I said your position was illogical. And it still is.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.

Because questioning tiresome obsolete beliefs and illogical positions= bullying

Got it.



 I answered it. You did not like my first answer and asked for definition/interpretation. I gave my definition and interpretation and STILL you didn't like the answer I gave you. Until I say what you want, you will not like my response. SO STOP ASKING THE DAMN QUESTIONS!
 
2014-03-24 04:20:31 PM  

Rueened: whidbey: Not surprised. What else do you find irritating about liberals?

Also not surprised that you crossed out the relevant part of my statement and pretended that I'd never said it.


It wasn't "relevant." You don't care for people speaking their own minds. All you've done here is ridicule them.

Although you're supposed to delete it before quoting - you're losing your touch.

You're kind of a control freak, too. Just saying.

And what gives you the right to assume it's about liberal vs conservative? Why do you assume I'm a conservative?

Because you obviously find socially progressive people irritating.
 
2014-03-24 04:20:32 PM  

allylloyd: eraser8: allylloyd: Sorry, but I'm not going to change my response to suit you.

I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.

Either you have a reason for believing in a particular god or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one god from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible gods to those that are currently worshiped, there are, at least, hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

Not everybody has a logical reason for believing in a god.  I can accept that...and, I suspect you fall into that category.

Whatever you choose to believe doesn't offend me.  I only asked the question because I was interested in the answer.  Like I said, I was interested, principally, in whether the views of religionists and the views of atheists is or is not possibly bridgeable.

I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

//At no point in my life have I ever been told: I must believe in God, I better believe in God or I should believe in God.
//I was raised in (and still a member of) a church that follows what's known as the Three Legged Stool 1)Scripture, 2) Tradition (Baptism/Eucharist) and 3) Reason (ask questions, never stop asking questions)


The first two reasons seem to be axiomatic rather than logical.  But, the fact that they're axiomatic rather than logical doesn't mean they're not valid.

I'm not sure how I'd classify your third argument.  It seems like an appeal to one premise to support another.    There's probably a word for that...but, I don't know what it is.

In any case, from the way you've answered my question, I suspect you saw my me as challenging your beliefs.  That wasn't my intention.  Like I wrote earlier, what you believe doesn't matter to me.  I have a specific interest in a specific subject and that interest isn't convincing you that your beliefs are wrong.

Thanks for your responses, though.
 
2014-03-24 04:22:07 PM  

Danger Mouse: Do onto others as you would have them do onto you?

That's a great idea.  I wonder were it came from. ;)


The Code of Hammurabi?  Ancient China? Ancient Egypt?  Ancient Greece? You weren't seriously suggesting it was the bible were you?
 Like every other part of christianity it was borrowed/stolen from an earlier source, not a single thing about the religion is original.
 
2014-03-24 04:22:33 PM  

allylloyd: The Holy Spirit first "appears" in the Old Testament. When you are baptized, you are blessed with the Holy Spirit.


Seeing as "baptism" began with John the Baptist, I think you have a major flaw in your exegesis, here.

Magorn: Old Catholic theology gets this, old hymns refer to the incident as " O happy fault. O NECESSARY Sin of Adam"


And yet, Judas hanged himself/was dashed to pieces on rocks (depending on which version of the Passion you're reading).

Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice got this.
 
2014-03-24 04:22:49 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I just don't understand the concept of hell. The idea of eternal punishment is just so  evil, that I don't understand how Christians rationalize it.


I am a Christian and I believe Heaven is for everyone - Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.

God is capable of love on a level beyond human comprehension.

Won't my fellow Christians be surprised when they get to Heaven and meet their atheist neighbor!!

God loves you, whether you believe in Him or not.
 
2014-03-24 04:23:05 PM  

allylloyd: I answered it. You did not like my first answer and asked for definition/interpretation. I gave my definition and interpretation and STILL you didn't like the answer I gave you.


You're right . I didn't like your second illogical reply any more than the first.

Until I say what you want, you will not like my response. SO STOP ASKING THE DAMN QUESTIONS!

Again, you said there was a "logical" reason why you believed in God. I pointed out the fallacy in your thinking.

Rather than acquiesce, you made personal attacks. I'd say we're done here.
 
2014-03-24 04:24:40 PM  
A brief analogy to describe the conversation so far:

allyloyd: I drive a Ford F150

eraser8: Why? Why do you drive a Ford f150?

allyloyd : And my response is "Why not?" My driving of a Ford F150 is because I love to drive

eraser8: By that reasoning (if honest) you should be willing to drive ANY car because you love to drive. How could you possibly choose just one?  And, how did you choose the one you chose?

allyloyd : I'm not changing my response for you.

eraser8: I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.
Either you have a reason for driving that particular car or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one car from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible cars to those that are currently manufactured, there are at least hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

allyloyd: I drive a Ford F150 because I can drive a Ford F150 .  I drive a Ford F150 because I want to  drive a Ford F150 .  I drive a Ford F150 because  driving a Ford F150 makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

And around and around you go - never actually answering the question. Why don't you drive a Honda Accord? Why don't you drive a Mercedes? Why did you choose a Ford F150 over all the other possible cars to drive? Especially if you posit that there is only one correct car to drive, and choosing the wrong one will result in eternal damnation.

So I'll ask once more - what made you choose the belief system you currently hold? I'd bet my next paycheck that the answer is "Because that's what my parents and all of the adults around me said was true my whole life - from even before I could read or write."

Personally, I think eraser8 is barking up the wrong tree, since that is almost universally the answer to that question. The more interesting discussion is when that question is directed at converts.
 
2014-03-24 04:25:59 PM  

yakmans_dad: The Old Testament Yahweh shares almost nothing with the God the Father whom Jesus worships.

But It proved impossible to kick out volcano god Yahweh and maintain the belief in the inerrancy of the Bible so the Church (and by that I mean organized Christians not just Roman Catholics) accepted the idea that the unbaptized -- including infants -- went to Hell. The idea that the Bible was a collection of incompatible views on religion is so abhorrent that they construed a loving Father to mean someone who will torture infinitely people who have done nothing wrong. And since Life begins at conception RAPE, you don't even have to be born to suffer infinitely. If the woman miscarries, Hell is the zygote's "justifiable" destination.

 
2014-03-24 04:27:49 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: The more interesting discussion is when that question is directed at converts.


Then I would try to find out if they were recovering addicts or alcoholics. Probably wouldn't be surprised by the confirmation.
 
2014-03-24 04:28:14 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: /Both are assholes, IMHO


Save that I'm not the asshole trying to force my prejudices on you by force of law.
 
2014-03-24 04:30:56 PM  

allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.

You can believe that if you want. I really don't care. But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.


He is not saying what you believe is wrong... you misunderstood him. He is not putting you down, or shaming your religion. He is simply stating that when you said "I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons " that they are not logical. nothing more, nothing less.
 
2014-03-24 04:31:01 PM  

eraser8: DROxINxTHExWIND: You know, I'll answer as honestly as I can...it's probably indoctrination, mixed with a little bit of "better to believe than to go to Hell" in the back of my mind. I've sat and pondered it myself.

I can buy the indoctrination part.  That seems quite common.

As for your "better to believe that go to Hell," you've probably been told (or, I hope you have been) how flawed that reasoning is.  It's just not logically coherent.  Don't misunderstand; the fact that Pascal's Wager (your argument is named that after its most notable proponent, Blaise Pascal) is logically incoherent doesn't mean your god doesn't exist...but, the argument itself really can be thrown out as bad thinking.


It's also insulting to God. It assumes that God is so shallow, gullible, and stupid as to be fooled by a pretense of faith. It's like people don't think that God can see into their very minds.
 
2014-03-24 04:32:47 PM  

Rueened: Trivia Jockey: The point wasn't to refute your beliefs, it was to refute your statement that Christianity isn't forced on anyone in this country (implying that we shouldn't be so upset about it).

What beliefs? I already said I'm not religious, shocking as that may sound.

And no-one's forced to be Christian... I mean, do ever listen to yourself when you talk, or does it kind of drift in and out like you've got tinnitus or something?


Forced and coerced are two different things, that I will give you.
 
2014-03-24 04:33:15 PM  

nmrsnr: Oh Internet, you never disappoint:

[iguessimagrownup.files.wordpress.com image 500x245]


Such a good movie. Now I want to watch it again.
 
2014-03-24 04:33:40 PM  

allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.

You can believe that if you want. I really don't care.

Of course you care about it. You're that insecure about your belief.

But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

No, I said your position was illogical. And it still is.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.

Because questioning tiresome obsolete beliefs and illogical positions= bullying

Got it.


 I answered it. You did not like my first answer and asked for definition/interpretation. I gave my definition and interpretation and STILL you didn't like the answer I gave you. Until I say what you want, you will not like my response. SO STOP ASKI ...


Has it occurred to you that if you had happened to be raised in a different time, place, or culture you might have a very different set of beliefs; but you'd feel just as strong that they are true as you currently do with Christianity?
 
2014-03-24 04:36:06 PM  

The_Hairy_Gooch: He is not saying what you believe is wrong... you misunderstood him. He is not putting you down, or shaming your religion. He is simply stating that when you said "I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons " that they are not logical. nothing more, nothing less.


Furthermore, the implication is that they are emotional. Again, no judgement, just fact.
 
2014-03-24 04:38:16 PM  

The_Hairy_Gooch: Forced and coerced are two different things, that I will give you.


True, but immaterial. He didn't assert that no one was being forced to be religious. He stated that no one was forcing religion on anyone.
 
2014-03-24 04:40:07 PM  
Magorn:

No, but it does sound a lot like The Silmarillion.

Anyone else think that Morgoth just started playing an electric guitar solo in the church choir, hence the dissonance?
 
2014-03-24 04:40:55 PM  
allylloyd:

I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:

1) I believe in God because I can believe in God.


2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God.


3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...


You may want to have some knowledge of what logic is and logical fallacies are before you start claiming things are logical that clearly aren't.

1) Begging the Question , and a meaningless tautology

2) Begging the Question

3) Appeal to emotion , Appeal to personal experience,
 
2014-03-24 04:41:00 PM  

allylloyd: 2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God.


I want to see my dead mother again. Alive, I mean. That, sadly, will never happen. Dead is dead and the universe doesn't give a damn what I want.
 
2014-03-24 04:43:00 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Personally, I think eraser8 is barking up the wrong tree, since that is almost universally the answer to that question.


I was very deliberately NOT looking for a psychological or neurobiological answer.  I really wanted a believer's perspective.
 
2014-03-24 04:43:02 PM  

tlars699: Anyone else think that Morgoth just started playing an electric guitar solo in the church choir, hence the dissonance?


What electric guitar in church might look/sound like.

// Sister Rosetta Tharpe, who would have turned 99 on 20MAR2014
 
2014-03-24 04:43:14 PM  

whidbey: It wasn't "relevant." You don't care for people speaking their own minds.


I do if they have something relevant to say.

All you've done here is ridicule them.

Disagree with = ridicule. Whatever you say.

You're kind of a control freak, too. Just saying.

wat

Because you obviously find socially progressive people irritating.

... and narrow-minded, arrogant, naive, intolerant of disagreement...
 
2014-03-24 04:44:00 PM  

allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: whidbey: allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

Hate to break it to you, but none of that is really "logical."

How is it not logical to do something because I can, I want to and I like to ESPECIALLY when what I'm doing, wanting and liking isn't HURTING YOU or ANYONE ELSE.

//If what I believed was in any way, shape or form going to do harm (physical or mental) to another person or myself, than yes, it would be wrong.
//Guess what? My believing in God isn't going to change YOUR life; it's CHANGING MY LIFE.

You said it was "logical." I don't care what you believe, just pointing out your fallacy.

And it could be argued that if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you are enabling centuries of conservative-leaning oppressive ideology, so at least by that standard, you are affecting others adversely.

You can believe that if you want. I really don't care.

Of course you care about it. You're that insecure about your belief.

But trying to say what I believe is WRONG says more about you than it says about me.

No, I said your position was illogical. And it still is.

//It says you need a power play and to bully people who don't agree with you.

Because questioning tiresome obsolete beliefs and illogical positions= bullying

Got it.


 I answered it. You did not like my first answer and asked for definition/interpretation. I gave my definition and interpretation and STILL you didn't like the answer I gave you. Until I say what you want, you will not like my response. SO STOP ASKI ...


There is no inherent reasoning to your reasons.
It's just :Because I want to.

No answer to the why do you want to's, no axioms other than the above, nothing to convince the adherent followers of Logic that they should; just that it suits you(which is fine). There is no other root to it, just the tap root of your opinion.

Hence, it is not Logical.

So, don't use that word.
Only Vulcans can use that word.
 
2014-03-24 04:45:25 PM  

allylloyd: I have a logical reasons for believing in God. Here are those logical reasons:
1) I believe in God because I can believe in God. This means I don't have to interpret God's words the same way another person does.
2) I believe in God because I want to believe in God. I also want to look to look Kerry Washington on Scandal, but believing in God is more doable.
3) I like to believe in God because believing in God makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

//At no point in my life have I ever been told: I must believe in God, I better believe in God or I should believe in God.
//I was raised in (and still a member of) a church that follows what's known as the Three Legged Stool 1)Scripture, 2) Tradition (Baptism/Eucharist) and 3) Reason (ask questions, never stop asking questions)


so you 'chose' the exact same religion as your parents... and their parents and... how convenient that your forefathers chose the 'correct' religion... gasp... what if they had been jewish or muslim or (god forbid) pagans... I'm guessing you haven't put a lot of effort into investigating 'other' religions... you should... however I'm afraid you'll find that they all have basically the same stumbling blocks...
and you are failing pretty hard at that 'never stop asking questions' part... unless you also aren't interested in getting answers for any of those questions.  If 'faith' or 'belief' is a comfort to you and makes your life feel 'worthwhile'... then just say that... it's a coping mechanism.
 
2014-03-24 04:45:39 PM  

tlars699: Only Vulcans can use that word.


Indeed.
 
2014-03-24 04:47:16 PM  

allylloyd: //I believe in the Trinity; this means there's ONE God with different name.


Actually, no - the Christian concept of the Trinity most certainly does not refer to three different "names" for god - it refers to three distinct, divine persons within the Godhead.

Three different names for one God sounds an awful lot like the Sabellian heresy
 
2014-03-24 04:48:13 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: Magorn: UncomfortableSilence: Magorn:

Recognizing that we are arguing over the truths hidden in a creation story of a 6000 year old nomadic culture, I have always interpreted the Adam and Eve story thusly:  it is a metaphor for the moments humans gained sentience and self-awareness.   The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil gives it away to me.  Can you ascribe "morality" to the actions of an animal except as an anthropomorphic delusion?  When a cat toys with its prey before killing it, is it "evil" or merely doing what cats are programmed to do?  Can you honestly say that any animal's actions whether it is your dog peeing on a rug or even that chimp who ate a woman;s face off, had a MORAL dimension?  That is, was good o ...

If it was necessary, then why is it a sin.  We were created, a tree with the knowledge of morality was placed in the garden, and we were forbidden to know that.  Why tempt us? Why give us free will if you know that what will happen will be the eating of fruit from said tree? Why punish them and all who descended from them for gaining that knowledge, if you claimed it to be necessary?

Depends how you define sin and punishment.   You could say it was "original sin" merely because it gave us the CAPACITY to sin, which is to say chose to do evil and then the "punishment" then is not so much the wrath of god but the burden of that responsibility , that once we start on the path to taking our moral judgments for ourselves there is no going back, and it is a heavy burden, and one that has caused great pain and suffering for us as a race, but also all the works of mankind, all out art our science etc.   TO me its the metaphor for humans taking the first steps on the long road to becoming the inheritors of Creation, sentient being with near godlike abilities to understand and manipulate creation.

Reasonable argument.


I've always seen the parable/story as being analogous to "Ignorance is bliss". Considering that the concept of "Sin" as we think of it in biblical terms is more properly considered to be a "mistake" rather than a mortal ZOMG DAMN YOU TO HELL that the medieval church wanted us to believe it was, I think "original sin" and the children of man being forever burdened with it, was always more of a metaphorical means of basically saying "look, by choosing to be curious and to learn, your lives are no longer ones of simple happiness and fulfillment without burden. Instead, you now have to live with being self-aware and therefore having to live with all of the crap that comes with understanding the miseries of life beyond simple animal life."

And with that regard, it is an "original sin" in that our ancestors, by choice or by evolution, gained the ability to reason and to have more extreme experiences with life than just the basics, and therefore burdened the species to understand the misery of heartache, the frustration of failure, and so on.

Since life is full of pain, failure, and disappointment, I can see how it's a fair allegory for the state of our existence, and DAMN THOSE MONKEYS FOR CHOOSING TO LISTEN TO THE MONOLITH!
 
2014-03-24 04:50:00 PM  

whidbey: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.

Logically, though, how would you even know until it happens?


Medical science, how the fark does that work? We know that brain damage can destroy memories, scramble personalities, erase morals, destroy our ability to sense our surroundings, etc... We know that chemicals can alter the way in which we think. We have mountains of evidence that shows that everything the "mind" does is a function of the brain and no credible evidence that there is a incorporeal mind, to hell with anything like a soul.
 
2014-03-24 04:50:12 PM  

Rueened: whidbey: It wasn't "relevant." You don't care for people speaking their own minds.

I do if they have something relevant to say.

All you've done here is ridicule them.

Disagree with = ridicule. Whatever you say.

You're kind of a control freak, too. Just saying.

wat

Because you obviously find socially progressive people irritating.

... and narrow-minded, arrogant, naive, intolerant of disagreement...


Explain the above, please.
Because you haven't really shown how they might be, just that you find them so.
 
2014-03-24 04:51:35 PM  

whidbey: tlars699: Only Vulcans can use that word.

Indeed.


\\//
 
2014-03-24 04:53:18 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: The_Hairy_Gooch: Forced and coerced are two different things, that I will give you.

True, but immaterial. He didn't assert that no one was being forced to be religious. He stated that no one was forcing religion on anyone.


I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt, otherwise he was coming off as a real jerk. I'm with you on the matter trust me. I came at it from this angle; maybe he believes that people are not having religion forced upon them because it is their decision to believe or not, no matter how much one is coerced or told to believe a certain thing. I would disagree, but I can see that argument.
 
2014-03-24 04:53:35 PM  

allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.

I beg to differ! I had a partial left temporal lobectomy! Part of my brain is gone! I also have a benign brain tumor.
I am very much alive.


So, part of your brain is all of your brain?
 
2014-03-24 04:55:06 PM  

Rueened: whidbey: It wasn't "relevant." You don't care for people speaking their own minds.

I do if they have something relevant to say.

All you've done here is ridicule them.

Disagree with = ridicule. Whatever you say.

You're kind of a control freak, too. Just saying.

wat

Because you obviously find socially progressive people irritating.

... and narrow-minded, arrogant, naive, intolerant of disagreement...


Show us on the doll where the free-thinking person touched you.
 
2014-03-24 04:55:33 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?



Settle down. Rueened said he wasn't religious, so your point is invalid.
 
2014-03-24 04:56:28 PM  

The_Hairy_Gooch: Gecko Gingrich: The_Hairy_Gooch: Forced and coerced are two different things, that I will give you.

True, but immaterial. He didn't assert that no one was being forced to be religious. He stated that no one was forcing religion on anyone.

I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt, otherwise he was coming off as a real jerk. I'm with you on the matter trust me. I came at it from this angle; maybe he believes that people are not having religion forced upon them because it is their decision to believe or not, no matter how much one is coerced or told to believe a certain thing. I would disagree, but I can see that argument.


Even with your statement as it was, isn't' there the weekly thread of a kid getting mistreated at a school because they don't follow the Christian based guidelines at a public school? Where they have to do *insert Xtian activity* else they are given detention, bad grades, etc?
 
2014-03-24 04:58:43 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: A brief analogy to describe the conversation so far:

allyloyd: I drive a Ford F150

eraser8: Why? Why do you drive a Ford f150?

allyloyd : And my response is "Why not?" My driving of a Ford F150 is because I love to drive

eraser8: By that reasoning (if honest) you should be willing to drive ANY car because you love to drive. How could you possibly choose just one?  And, how did you choose the one you chose?

allyloyd : I'm not changing my response for you.

eraser8: I'm not asking you to changer your response.  I was just asking for an honest one.
Either you have a reason for driving that particular car or you don't.  Your "why not" answer only works if there is only one car from which to choose...but, even if you limit your set of possible cars to those that are currently manufactured, there are at least hundreds -- probably thousands -- to choose from.

allyloyd: I drive a Ford F150 because I can drive a Ford F150 .  I drive a Ford F150 because I want to  drive a Ford F150 .  I drive a Ford F150 because  driving a Ford F150 makes me happy, joyful, compassionate, forgiving and sometimes, sad...

And around and around you go - never actually answering the question. Why don't you drive a Honda Accord? Why don't you drive a Mercedes? Why did you choose a Ford F150 over all the other possible cars to drive? Especially if you posit that there is only one correct car to drive, and choosing the wrong one will result in eternal damnation.

So I'll ask once more - what made you choose the belief system you currently hold? I'd bet my next paycheck that the answer is "Because that's what my parents and all of the adults around me said was true my whole life - from even before I could read or write."

Personally, I think eraser8 is barking up the wrong tree, since that is almost universally the answer to that question. The more interesting discussion is when that question is directed at converts.


Pardon me, and I don't disagree that his statements are inherently illogical, but since when has "Because I farking want to" been a bad reason to do something? Unless you have a good reason NOT to do something, if the spirit, pardon the expression, moves you to do it, then why the fark not go with it?

Some people take this religion shiat wayyy too seriously, both on a pro- and an anti- level. How hard is it, fundies, to keep to your own and stop visiting misery onto others? How hard is it, atheists, to recognize that some people want to believe in a higher power and may not have a fundamentally logical or scientific reason to do so and let them have it?  As long as they're not hurting anyone, and actively shoving their shiat on you, why get upset about it? Why browbeat them and attempt to "educate" them, since chances are you're going to waste a lot of time and energy yelling at a brick wall?

Seriously, you'll have an easier time convincing a blind man that you're really harrison ford than you will convincing someone who has a fundamental belief that exists beyond reason that they're wrong. And half the time, what you accept as fundamental truth is just as much emotion as it is evidence.
 
2014-03-24 04:59:04 PM  

Ed Grubermann: whidbey: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd: Ed Grubermann: allylloyd:
Going TO heaven and getting INSIDE heaven are two very different things...

Actually, they are the same thing. It's impossible to accomplish either. What part of "dead" do you not grasp?

That is your interpretation and/or belief and you are entitled to it. I am entitled to mine.

That's not my belief, it's what the evidence makes clear. Dead is dead. Once the brain is gone, you are gone. Show me any credible evidence that there is anything beyond death and I'll reconsider my position.

Logically, though, how would you even know until it happens?

Medical science, how the fark does that work? We know that brain damage can destroy memories, scramble personalities, erase morals, destroy our ability to sense our surroundings, etc... We know that chemicals can alter the way in which we think. We have mountains of evidence that shows that everything the "mind" does is a function of the brain and no credible evidence that there is a incorporeal mind, to hell with anything like a soul.


Again, you're only making this conclusion based on the available evidence. Aristotle thought insects came from mud. He was obviously missing a piece of the puzzle, and I daresay perhaps so are we.
 
2014-03-24 04:59:40 PM  

Rueened: whidbey: Not surprised. What else do you find irritating about liberals?

Also not surprised that you crossed out the relevant part of my statement and pretended that I'd never said it.

Although you're supposed to delete it before quoting - you're losing your touch.

And what gives you the right to assume it's about liberal vs conservative? Why do you assume I'm a conservative?



Can we just assume you're a pendantic asshole?
 
2014-03-24 04:59:46 PM  

Lord_Baull: Gecko Gingrich: Rueened: Dry your eyes princess, no-one is forcing anything on you.

No? Then why does my brother have to go two counties over to buy a beer on Sunday? Why did my sister need to drive an hour and a half when she wanted to get an abortion? Why can't my cousin marry his boyfriend?


Settle down. Rueened said he wasn't religious, so your point is invalid.


Umm. the points Gecko brings up are still valid. They m