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(BBC)   What medieval Europe did with its teenagers   (bbc.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Europe, University of Nottingham, Black Death, shed a tear, University of York, Middle Ages, Venetian  
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23181 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Mar 2014 at 5:53 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



81 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-03-23 04:31:27 PM  
Serfing is the only life the only way for me.  Now serf, serf, with me.
 
2014-03-23 05:55:02 PM  
Humped them repeatedly?
 
2014-03-23 06:00:50 PM  
Philippe Aries describes how in Avignon the young people literally held the town to ransom on carnival day, since they "had the privilege of thrashing Jews and whores unless a ransom was paid".


This reminds me of the "throw the Jew down the well" scene from Borat.
 
2014-03-23 06:01:19 PM  
Work?
 
2014-03-23 06:02:08 PM  
Drew selfies?
 
2014-03-23 06:04:40 PM  
A gang would parade around carrying effigies of their victims, banging pots and pans, blowing trumpets and possibly pulling the fur of cats to make them shriek (the German word is Katzenmusik).

Oh those crazy Nazi cat fur pullers.
 
2014-03-23 06:05:04 PM  
Dick Whittington
 
2014-03-23 06:06:33 PM  
Another 16th-century youth wrote to his mother, also asking who would do his laundry. In response, he received a letter containing the following advice: "My sonne, thou knowest well the great love I have for thee. But 'tis time for thee to groweth the hell up and wash thine owne tighty whiteys like a bigge boy."
 
2014-03-23 06:08:35 PM  
They didn't have helicopters back then. Maybe they just sodomized them.
 
2014-03-23 06:08:52 PM  
They weren't dropping litters at 12 or so?
 
2014-03-23 06:10:42 PM  
That's about the time they shipped 'em out to the Holy Land to be used as camel fodder.
 
2014-03-23 06:13:36 PM  
Kids were put to work @14 years of age pretty much in every society until recently.  Child labor was only outlawed in the US in 1938.  The concept of the "teenager" was devised by some Mad Ave hucksters back in the 50s.
 
2014-03-23 06:16:03 PM  
And then came the welfare state

/ thanks Obama!!
 
2014-03-23 06:21:01 PM  

brap: Serfing is the only life the only way for me.  Now serf, serf, with me.


Serfies?
 
2014-03-23 06:26:00 PM  
melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-03-23 06:26:28 PM  
Anyone interested in historical treatment of children should take a listen to hardcore history's episode Suffer the Children. Fascinating and incredibly brutal.
 
2014-03-23 06:40:14 PM  
And the wussification of society continues unabated to this day.
 
2014-03-23 06:43:59 PM  

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]



I have the wierdest boner right now.
 
2014-03-23 06:47:30 PM  

brap: Serfing is the only life the only way for me.  Now serf, serf, with me.


Hang five?

img.fark.net
 
2014-03-23 06:48:31 PM  

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


And this is why Sarah Silverman peed herself.
 
2014-03-23 06:49:08 PM  
TFA: In 1517, the Mercers' guild complained that many of their apprentices "have greatly mysordered theymself", spending their masters' money on "harlotes... dyce, cardes and other unthrifty games".

16th century Færkers?
 
2014-03-23 06:50:06 PM  
LordOfThePings:

And where does one find one of these?
 
2014-03-23 06:55:15 PM  

give me doughnuts: LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


I have the wierdest boner right now.


I have the wierdest boner right now.
 
2014-03-23 06:56:17 PM  

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


That looks comfortable. I'll take three.
 
2014-03-23 07:02:53 PM  
many parents of 21st Century teenagers will nod their heads in recognition at St Bede's Eighth Century youths, who were "lean (even though they eat heartily), swift-footed, bold, irritable and active".

So just the same as today's kids.
 
2014-03-23 07:07:46 PM  

Fissile: Kids were put to work @14 years of age pretty much in every society until recently.  Child labor was only outlawed in the US in 1938.  The concept of the "teenager" was devised by some Mad Ave hucksters back in the 50s.


This.  "Teenagers" were not a thing until the last century in anything other than the most literal sense.  You were a child, then you were an adult.  The change corresponds to increasingly universal education and the dominance of specialist techne in both basic quality of life and the larger cultural landscape.  Those things require a significant non-productive training period for the typical citizen.

Hell, for a good chunk of the middle ages, as the article points out, "children" weren't a thing either.  Either you were an infant and got a bit of a pass or you were expected to maintain basically the same standards of behavior and productivity as a modern adult-aged person scaled down to your approximate mass.  A child was just a physically smaller, weaker person, beyond that no difference.
 
2014-03-23 07:10:27 PM  

Gyrfalcon: many parents of 21st Century teenagers will nod their heads in recognition at St Bede's Eighth Century youths, who were "lean (even though they eat heartily), swift-footed, bold, irritable and active".


So just the same as today's kids.

maybe the "bold and irritable" part, at least...

/ doubtful about the rest
 
2014-03-23 07:11:54 PM  
The children of nobles were commonly sent from vassals to serve their lords as pages and ladies in waiting where they were trained in courtly ways and educated to become adults (knights etc). This all sprung from the practice of a lord keeping the children of a vassal hostage to make him behave.

I wonder how much apprenticing was used to cement business relations. You wouldn't want to cheat someone at business if he was holding your children hostage.
 
2014-03-23 07:12:54 PM  
Not to mention sending them to die in war. Our species still hasn't gotten over that hobby.
 
2014-03-23 07:14:54 PM  

Son of Thunder: Another 16th-century youth wrote to his mother, also asking who would do his laundry. In response, he received a letter containing the following advice: "My sonne, thou knowest well the great love I have for thee. But 'tis time for thee to groweth the hell up and wash thine owne tighty whiteys like a bigge boy."


Lol
 
2014-03-23 07:14:59 PM  
This is totally sick puppyville.
 
2014-03-23 07:15:35 PM  
LordOfThePings:

Chair porn...da fuq?
 
2014-03-23 07:22:52 PM  
They had some sweet games, however. My family lore mentions an ancestor who was renowned for his Grand Theft Oxcart scores.
 
2014-03-23 07:24:46 PM  

jamspoon: TFA: In 1517, the Mercers' guild complained that many of their apprentices "have greatly mysordered theymself", spending their masters' money on "harlotes... dyce, cardes and other unthrifty games".

16th century Færkers?


And wasting the rest
 
2014-03-23 07:27:28 PM  
My daughter did this at 16; her mom decided she could live with the boyfriend and dad - as non-custodial parent I had no say.

Now at 19 she has a bit more realistic view of things than her friends...
 
2014-03-23 07:32:03 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Fissile: Kids were put to work @14 years of age pretty much in every society until recently.  Child labor was only outlawed in the US in 1938.  The concept of the "teenager" was devised by some Mad Ave hucksters back in the 50s.

This.  "Teenagers" were not a thing until the last century in anything other than the most literal sense.  You were a child, then you were an adult.  The change corresponds to increasingly universal education and the dominance of specialist techne in both basic quality of life and the larger cultural landscape.  Those things require a significant non-productive training period for the typical citizen.

Hell, for a good chunk of the middle ages, as the article points out, "children" weren't a thing either.  Either you were an infant and got a bit of a pass or you were expected to maintain basically the same standards of behavior and productivity as a modern adult-aged person scaled down to your approximate mass.  A child was just a physically smaller, weaker person, beyond that no difference.


Well, yes and no. In Reviving Ophelia a lot of attention is given to organizations for the protection and education of young women. They go back a fair piece. It was recognized that there was a stage between childhood and full adulthood, characterized by increasing responsibility but not the full adult measure. An older girl would, for instance, have a lot to do with the raising of her younger siblings. But she wasn't expected to have kids of her own until her early twenties. She would work at the household business or elsewhere but still had certain protections under the law that she wouldn't as a completely grown woman. Even in subsistence agriculture and hunting/gathering pre-teen and young teen children don't pull their (literal) own weight in calories produced.

So the answer is that when you look closely it become a lot more interesting and less simple.
 
2014-03-23 07:32:45 PM  

give me doughnuts: LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


I have the wierdest boner right now.


I'm glad it's not just me.
 
2014-03-23 07:34:07 PM  
TFA: "You've got quite a number of young men who are in apprenticeships who have got no hope of getting a workshop and a business of their own," says Jeremy Goldberg. "You've got numbers of somewhat disillusioned and disenfranchised young men, who may be predisposed to challenging authority, because they have nothing invested in it."

McJobs?
 
2014-03-23 07:37:57 PM  

Igor Jakovsky: LordOfThePings:

Chair porn...da fuq?


♫Don't you be no square, if you can't find a partner use a wooden chair♫
 
2014-03-23 07:40:09 PM  

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


Just when I thought I'd seen everything...
 
2014-03-23 07:42:10 PM  

insertdip: Anyone interested in historical treatment of children should take a listen to hardcore history's episode Suffer the Children. Fascinating and incredibly brutal.


I haven't listened to that specific episode, but Hardcore History is farking awesome.  I'll have to give it a listen this week.
 
2014-03-23 07:47:35 PM  
Sent them to the middle east in an ill-fated "children's crusade" which saw most of those children captured and sold into slavery?
 
2014-03-23 07:47:48 PM  

Hoban Washburne: insertdip: Anyone interested in historical treatment of children should take a listen to hardcore history's episode Suffer the Children. Fascinating and incredibly brutal.

I haven't listened to that specific episode, but Hardcore History is farking awesome.  I'll have to give it a listen this week.


< Nice History
 
2014-03-23 07:48:12 PM  
 the aristocracy did occasionally dispatch their offspring at the age of seven, but most parents waved goodbye to them at about 14.

Yeah, 14 is about the time most parents would like to ship their kids off.
 
2014-03-23 07:50:57 PM  

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


Will someone kindly explain this to me? I don't get it.
 
2014-03-23 07:56:02 PM  
When reading historical accounts of how children were raised long ago, you have to first understand that you're not reading studies of how children were raised, but the social elites' visions and self-centered accounts.  Remember, education back then was mostly exclusive to the rich, nobility and clergy.

So, imagine if all that was ever written about parenting was authored by today's politicians, investment bankers and fundies.  Some of it will be accurate in the sense that that's how they raised their own children, but a whole steaming elephant pile of it will be some really sick shiat that would horrify any sane parents of the day.
 
2014-03-23 08:01:08 PM  

Igor Jakovsky: LordOfThePings:

Chair porn...da fuq?


melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-03-23 08:05:40 PM  
Meh, business as usual. People out only for themselves, profit, and laziness.
 
2014-03-23 08:15:29 PM  

ReapTheChaos: LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]

Just when I thought I'd seen everything...


Apparently, this is "art".
http://melissaliegner.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/human-chair/
 
2014-03-23 08:29:47 PM  

dragonchild: you have to first understand that you're not reading studies of how children were raised


Studies have their own criticisms. But remember:

What you're reading, in historical accounts, is what someone dained to write down. You'll never know what they left out, what they were lying about, and what is just pure fantasy without multiple sources. That's true of ANY historical account, even today.

That's what history is. Trying to find as many voices as possible and sifting out the repeating themes. Somewhere where all the voices say the same thing is the truth.
 
2014-03-23 08:36:00 PM  

Shazam999: Drew selfies?


What's that? Pictures of an empty bottle of Maker's Mark?
 
2014-03-23 08:46:59 PM  

lamric: Igor Jakovsky: LordOfThePings:

Chair porn...da fuq?


Go on
 
2014-03-23 08:48:03 PM  

FatherDale: ReapTheChaos: LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]

Just when I thought I'd seen everything...

Apparently, this is "art".
http://melissaliegner.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/human-chair/


melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-03-23 08:48:20 PM  

fappomatic: They had some sweet games, however. My family lore mentions an ancestor who was renowned for his Grand Theft Oxcart scores.


I hope this doesn't slip through the cracks and go unnoticed, because I chortled. Heartily.
 
2014-03-23 08:55:38 PM  
Just send me your daughter. I'll take very good care of her. :)
 
2014-03-23 09:09:28 PM  
I wonder if its the legacy of this that even today in Australia that'Ozzies' mostly of English descent tend to kick their kids out of the family home as soon as possible where as Australians of European descent tend to stay longer in the family home at least during university....
 
2014-03-23 09:32:58 PM  
Haiti has Restavecs.
 
2014-03-23 09:47:21 PM  

Delay: LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]

That looks comfortable. I'll take three.


That's part of Ikea's Räpe line. They're always missing a screw.
 
2014-03-23 09:58:15 PM  

doglover: Studies have their own criticisms. But remember:

What you're reading, in historical accounts, is what someone dained to write down. You'll never know what they left out, what they were lying about, and what is just pure fantasy without multiple sources. That's true of ANY historical account, even today.

That's what history is. Trying to find as many voices as possible and sifting out the repeating themes. Somewhere where all the voices say the same thing is the truth.


Yes, yes, I agree. Well,, except the Holocaust. Anyone studying that and not arriving at the accepted narrative should be thrown in jail. But yeah,,, everything else you said is spot on.
 
2014-03-23 10:05:55 PM  

doglover: dragonchild: you have to first understand that you're not reading studies of how children were raised

Studies have their own criticisms. But remember:

What you're reading, in historical accounts, is what someone dained to write down. You'll never know what they left out, what they were lying about, and what is just pure fantasy without multiple sources. That's true of ANY historical account, even today.

That's what history is. Trying to find as many voices as possible and sifting out the repeating themes. Somewhere where all the voices say the same thing is the truth.


You know, 500 Years from now, an academic study of Fark threads would be a damned interesting read.  You know, if their heads didn't asplode first.
 
2014-03-23 10:10:31 PM  
Sweet, puberty swap.  And then what?  Lifespan increased to 27?
 
2014-03-23 10:25:43 PM  

ununcle: Anyone studying that and not arriving at the accepted narrative should be thrown in jail.


So I take it you work hard to help end ongoing genocides in Africa and Asia?
 
2014-03-23 10:43:25 PM  

SerenityValley: doglover: dragonchild: you have to first understand that you're not reading studies of how children were raised

Studies have their own criticisms. But remember:

What you're reading, in historical accounts, is what someone dained to write down. You'll never know what they left out, what they were lying about, and what is just pure fantasy without multiple sources. That's true of ANY historical account, even today.

That's what history is. Trying to find as many voices as possible and sifting out the repeating themes. Somewhere where all the voices say the same thing is the truth.

You know, 500 Years from now, an academic study of Fark threads would be a damned interesting read.  You know, if their heads didn't asplode first.


Ummmm...no. Fark is as important to the annals of world discussion as Manimal is to the annals of television history.
 
2014-03-23 11:13:43 PM  

Agatha Crispy: SerenityValley: doglover: dragonchild: you have to first understand that you're not reading studies of how children were raised

Studies have their own criticisms. But remember:

What you're reading, in historical accounts, is what someone dained to write down. You'll never know what they left out, what they were lying about, and what is just pure fantasy without multiple sources. That's true of ANY historical account, even today.

That's what history is. Trying to find as many voices as possible and sifting out the repeating themes. Somewhere where all the voices say the same thing is the truth.

You know, 500 Years from now, an academic study of Fark threads would be a damned interesting read.  You know, if their heads didn't asplode first.

Ummmm...no. Fark is as important to the annals of world discussion as Manimal is to the annals of television history.


An historian of 1050 AD probably felt the same way about his contemporaries, yet any writing that survived from  that historian would be considered "Primary Source" today.  You know, barring anything else directly contradictory.

/loved Manimal as a kid
//don't judge me
 
2014-03-23 11:22:20 PM  
Well, since you asked...

img.fark.net
 
2014-03-24 12:22:01 AM  

one of Ripley's Bad Guys: My daughter did this at 16; her mom decided she could live with the boyfriend and dad - as non-custodial parent I had no say.

Now at 19 she has a bit more realistic view of things than her friends...


I'm sorry to hear that.

I hate having to watch people learn things that hard way.
 
2014-03-24 12:26:44 AM  

FatherDale: ReapTheChaos: LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]

Just when I thought I'd seen everything...

Apparently, this is "art".
http://melissaliegner.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/human-chair/


Meh. College students.
 
2014-03-24 12:28:26 AM  

Agatha Crispy: SerenityValley: doglover: dragonchild: you have to first understand that you're not reading studies of how children were raised

Studies have their own criticisms. But remember:

What you're reading, in historical accounts, is what someone dained to write down. You'll never know what they left out, what they were lying about, and what is just pure fantasy without multiple sources. That's true of ANY historical account, even today.

That's what history is. Trying to find as many voices as possible and sifting out the repeating themes. Somewhere where all the voices say the same thing is the truth.

You know, 500 Years from now, an academic study of Fark threads would be a damned interesting read.  You know, if their heads didn't asplode first.

Ummmm...no. Fark is as important to the annals of world discussion as Manimal is to the annals of television history.


Actually, stuff discussing common, everyday life and culture is of incredible value to historians- because nobody ever thinks to write it down, and what is written often isn't preserved. The kind of stuff you find on social media, with description and discussion of everyday life, popular reaction to events as they happen- historians would kill to have this kind of stuff for the periods they're studying. Right now, they often work off of the correspondence of people whose correspondence was important enough that somebody saved it. It's great to have a letter from Thomas Jefferson or Andrew Jackson, but what was the attitude of the average guy on the street towards the nullification crisis? It's really, really hard to know. Go back further, when the bulk of the population was illiterate and only the elites had anything preserved, and then often only official documents, because they were hiring scribes for want of reading skills themselves? What do you think history might look like if we had access to a fark equivalent from the time of the Pharaohs? The Early Popes? We're missing out on a lot of really interesting stuff because there was just no documentation. A major decision that changed the course of the Roman Empire? We have one or two sentences in Plutarch, maybe. Would you like to have a blow by blow, serious biography of Genghis Khan? Too bad. We don't have enough info to do it, and that's one of the most powerful and consequential people in the history of the world, and God knows what the common folks thought of the trends he created.

The problem with stuff like Fark is going to be sorting. We generate such enormous amounts of data now, that's it's going to be very hard to sort what's useful from what's not. But we'll leave that to the future, I suppose. They'll invent a search engine to sort through the stuff that doesn't just poof up and disappear. A lot of this stuff is going to disappear someday. The site dies, they'll disconnect the servers, sell 'em for scrap, and that's that.
 
2014-03-24 12:33:03 AM  

cptjeff: We generate such enormous amounts of data now, that's it's going to be very hard to sort what's useful from what's not.


Farkologists spend their whole life searching for working hotlinks to the buckets of the pseudo religious figure "Gorgor" who may or may not have been a real person.
 
2014-03-24 12:33:59 AM  
Lol. It's called Forniphilia... (Rule 34 in action).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_furniture

Oh, and I would NOT recommend doing a GIS if you happen to be at work... But that should be obvious.
 
2014-03-24 12:34:09 AM  

germ78: Sent them to the middle east in an ill-fated "children's crusade" which saw most of those children captured and sold into slavery?


Sounds familiar, but instead of slavery they either got blown to bits and/or came back with PTSD.
 
2014-03-24 02:11:08 AM  
snl.jt.org
"Our day began at dawn, where, after a hearty breakfast, we had punishment 'til lunchtime. After lunch, there was more punishment 'til dinner. After dinner, we would pull up anchor and sail for an hour, then drop anchor again for some verbal humiliation, followed by evening punishment."
 
2014-03-24 05:21:00 AM  

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]



I propose a new axiom:

Internet Rule 1/36: In any sufficiently large sample of porn, there will be at least one item for which the originating fetish cannot be determined.
 
2014-03-24 05:41:10 AM  

HairBolus: The children of nobles were commonly sent from vassals to serve their lords as pages and ladies in waiting where they were trained in courtly ways and educated to become adults (knights etc). This all sprung from the practice of a lord keeping the children of a vassal hostage to make him behave.

I wonder how much apprenticing was used to cement business relations. You wouldn't want to cheat someone at business if he was holding your children hostage.


nah, most people sent their kids into apprenticeship willingly because it almost guaranteed they'd be able to have employment.  Let's just say there weren't a lot of social services back then.
 
2014-03-24 06:07:58 AM  
It takes a village....
 
2014-03-24 06:31:43 AM  

ReverendJynxed: Delay: LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]

That looks comfortable. I'll take three.

That's part of Ikea's Räpe line. They're always missing a screw.


FALSE, Ikea products are virtually never missing fasteners due to modern QC.

/that is some pretty weird art
 
2014-03-24 09:05:58 AM  
So.
The European dominance that followed was built upon the backs of children
 
2014-03-24 01:43:47 PM  
"But when you try and tell the young people of today that... they won't believe you."
 
2014-03-24 01:52:12 PM  
Always educate your heirs, you don't want them marrying some random person or turning into a total asshole no one wants to be King.
 
2014-03-24 01:53:43 PM  
religious orders did a lot of good back then

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-03-24 04:24:06 PM  
I was going to guess "married them off (females) and killed them in pointless religious wars (males)."

So I was kinda close.
 
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