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(BBC)   What medieval Europe did with its teenagers   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 81
    More: Interesting, Europe, University of Nottingham, Black Death, shed a tear, University of York, Middle Ages, Venetian  
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23121 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Mar 2014 at 5:53 PM (22 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



81 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-03-23 04:31:27 PM
Serfing is the only life the only way for me.  Now serf, serf, with me.
 
2014-03-23 05:55:02 PM
Humped them repeatedly?
 
2014-03-23 06:00:50 PM
Philippe Aries describes how in Avignon the young people literally held the town to ransom on carnival day, since they "had the privilege of thrashing Jews and whores unless a ransom was paid".


This reminds me of the "throw the Jew down the well" scene from Borat.
 
2014-03-23 06:01:19 PM
Work?
 
2014-03-23 06:02:08 PM
Drew selfies?
 
2014-03-23 06:04:40 PM
A gang would parade around carrying effigies of their victims, banging pots and pans, blowing trumpets and possibly pulling the fur of cats to make them shriek (the German word is Katzenmusik).

Oh those crazy Nazi cat fur pullers.
 
2014-03-23 06:05:04 PM
Dick Whittington
 
2014-03-23 06:06:33 PM
Another 16th-century youth wrote to his mother, also asking who would do his laundry. In response, he received a letter containing the following advice: "My sonne, thou knowest well the great love I have for thee. But 'tis time for thee to groweth the hell up and wash thine owne tighty whiteys like a bigge boy."
 
2014-03-23 06:08:35 PM
They didn't have helicopters back then. Maybe they just sodomized them.
 
2014-03-23 06:08:52 PM
They weren't dropping litters at 12 or so?
 
2014-03-23 06:10:42 PM
That's about the time they shipped 'em out to the Holy Land to be used as camel fodder.
 
2014-03-23 06:13:36 PM
Kids were put to work @14 years of age pretty much in every society until recently.  Child labor was only outlawed in the US in 1938.  The concept of the "teenager" was devised by some Mad Ave hucksters back in the 50s.
 
2014-03-23 06:16:03 PM
And then came the welfare state

/ thanks Obama!!
 
2014-03-23 06:21:01 PM

brap: Serfing is the only life the only way for me.  Now serf, serf, with me.


Serfies?
 
2014-03-23 06:26:00 PM
melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-03-23 06:26:28 PM
Anyone interested in historical treatment of children should take a listen to hardcore history's episode Suffer the Children. Fascinating and incredibly brutal.
 
2014-03-23 06:40:14 PM
And the wussification of society continues unabated to this day.
 
2014-03-23 06:43:59 PM

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]



I have the wierdest boner right now.
 
2014-03-23 06:47:30 PM

brap: Serfing is the only life the only way for me.  Now serf, serf, with me.


Hang five?

img.fark.net
 
2014-03-23 06:48:31 PM

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


And this is why Sarah Silverman peed herself.
 
2014-03-23 06:49:08 PM
TFA: In 1517, the Mercers' guild complained that many of their apprentices "have greatly mysordered theymself", spending their masters' money on "harlotes... dyce, cardes and other unthrifty games".

16th century Færkers?
 
2014-03-23 06:50:06 PM

LordOfThePings:


And where does one find one of these?
 
2014-03-23 06:55:15 PM

give me doughnuts: LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


I have the wierdest boner right now.


I have the wierdest boner right now.
 
2014-03-23 06:56:17 PM

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


That looks comfortable. I'll take three.
 
2014-03-23 07:02:53 PM
many parents of 21st Century teenagers will nod their heads in recognition at St Bede's Eighth Century youths, who were "lean (even though they eat heartily), swift-footed, bold, irritable and active".

So just the same as today's kids.
 
2014-03-23 07:07:46 PM

Fissile: Kids were put to work @14 years of age pretty much in every society until recently.  Child labor was only outlawed in the US in 1938.  The concept of the "teenager" was devised by some Mad Ave hucksters back in the 50s.


This.  "Teenagers" were not a thing until the last century in anything other than the most literal sense.  You were a child, then you were an adult.  The change corresponds to increasingly universal education and the dominance of specialist techne in both basic quality of life and the larger cultural landscape.  Those things require a significant non-productive training period for the typical citizen.

Hell, for a good chunk of the middle ages, as the article points out, "children" weren't a thing either.  Either you were an infant and got a bit of a pass or you were expected to maintain basically the same standards of behavior and productivity as a modern adult-aged person scaled down to your approximate mass.  A child was just a physically smaller, weaker person, beyond that no difference.
 
2014-03-23 07:10:27 PM

Gyrfalcon: many parents of 21st Century teenagers will nod their heads in recognition at St Bede's Eighth Century youths, who were "lean (even though they eat heartily), swift-footed, bold, irritable and active".


So just the same as today's kids.

maybe the "bold and irritable" part, at least...

/ doubtful about the rest
 
2014-03-23 07:11:54 PM
The children of nobles were commonly sent from vassals to serve their lords as pages and ladies in waiting where they were trained in courtly ways and educated to become adults (knights etc). This all sprung from the practice of a lord keeping the children of a vassal hostage to make him behave.

I wonder how much apprenticing was used to cement business relations. You wouldn't want to cheat someone at business if he was holding your children hostage.
 
2014-03-23 07:12:54 PM
Not to mention sending them to die in war. Our species still hasn't gotten over that hobby.
 
2014-03-23 07:14:54 PM

Son of Thunder: Another 16th-century youth wrote to his mother, also asking who would do his laundry. In response, he received a letter containing the following advice: "My sonne, thou knowest well the great love I have for thee. But 'tis time for thee to groweth the hell up and wash thine owne tighty whiteys like a bigge boy."


Lol
 
2014-03-23 07:14:59 PM
This is totally sick puppyville.
 
2014-03-23 07:15:35 PM

LordOfThePings:


Chair porn...da fuq?
 
2014-03-23 07:22:52 PM
They had some sweet games, however. My family lore mentions an ancestor who was renowned for his Grand Theft Oxcart scores.
 
2014-03-23 07:24:46 PM

jamspoon: TFA: In 1517, the Mercers' guild complained that many of their apprentices "have greatly mysordered theymself", spending their masters' money on "harlotes... dyce, cardes and other unthrifty games".

16th century Færkers?


And wasting the rest
 
2014-03-23 07:27:28 PM
My daughter did this at 16; her mom decided she could live with the boyfriend and dad - as non-custodial parent I had no say.

Now at 19 she has a bit more realistic view of things than her friends...
 
2014-03-23 07:32:03 PM

Jim_Callahan: Fissile: Kids were put to work @14 years of age pretty much in every society until recently.  Child labor was only outlawed in the US in 1938.  The concept of the "teenager" was devised by some Mad Ave hucksters back in the 50s.

This.  "Teenagers" were not a thing until the last century in anything other than the most literal sense.  You were a child, then you were an adult.  The change corresponds to increasingly universal education and the dominance of specialist techne in both basic quality of life and the larger cultural landscape.  Those things require a significant non-productive training period for the typical citizen.

Hell, for a good chunk of the middle ages, as the article points out, "children" weren't a thing either.  Either you were an infant and got a bit of a pass or you were expected to maintain basically the same standards of behavior and productivity as a modern adult-aged person scaled down to your approximate mass.  A child was just a physically smaller, weaker person, beyond that no difference.


Well, yes and no. In Reviving Ophelia a lot of attention is given to organizations for the protection and education of young women. They go back a fair piece. It was recognized that there was a stage between childhood and full adulthood, characterized by increasing responsibility but not the full adult measure. An older girl would, for instance, have a lot to do with the raising of her younger siblings. But she wasn't expected to have kids of her own until her early twenties. She would work at the household business or elsewhere but still had certain protections under the law that she wouldn't as a completely grown woman. Even in subsistence agriculture and hunting/gathering pre-teen and young teen children don't pull their (literal) own weight in calories produced.

So the answer is that when you look closely it become a lot more interesting and less simple.
 
2014-03-23 07:32:45 PM

give me doughnuts: LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


I have the wierdest boner right now.


I'm glad it's not just me.
 
2014-03-23 07:34:07 PM
TFA: "You've got quite a number of young men who are in apprenticeships who have got no hope of getting a workshop and a business of their own," says Jeremy Goldberg. "You've got numbers of somewhat disillusioned and disenfranchised young men, who may be predisposed to challenging authority, because they have nothing invested in it."

McJobs?
 
2014-03-23 07:37:57 PM

Igor Jakovsky: LordOfThePings:

Chair porn...da fuq?


♫Don't you be no square, if you can't find a partner use a wooden chair♫
 
2014-03-23 07:40:09 PM

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


Just when I thought I'd seen everything...
 
2014-03-23 07:42:10 PM

insertdip: Anyone interested in historical treatment of children should take a listen to hardcore history's episode Suffer the Children. Fascinating and incredibly brutal.


I haven't listened to that specific episode, but Hardcore History is farking awesome.  I'll have to give it a listen this week.
 
2014-03-23 07:47:35 PM
Sent them to the middle east in an ill-fated "children's crusade" which saw most of those children captured and sold into slavery?
 
2014-03-23 07:47:48 PM

Hoban Washburne: insertdip: Anyone interested in historical treatment of children should take a listen to hardcore history's episode Suffer the Children. Fascinating and incredibly brutal.

I haven't listened to that specific episode, but Hardcore History is farking awesome.  I'll have to give it a listen this week.


< Nice History
 
2014-03-23 07:48:12 PM
 the aristocracy did occasionally dispatch their offspring at the age of seven, but most parents waved goodbye to them at about 14.

Yeah, 14 is about the time most parents would like to ship their kids off.
 
2014-03-23 07:50:57 PM

LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]


Will someone kindly explain this to me? I don't get it.
 
2014-03-23 07:56:02 PM
When reading historical accounts of how children were raised long ago, you have to first understand that you're not reading studies of how children were raised, but the social elites' visions and self-centered accounts.  Remember, education back then was mostly exclusive to the rich, nobility and clergy.

So, imagine if all that was ever written about parenting was authored by today's politicians, investment bankers and fundies.  Some of it will be accurate in the sense that that's how they raised their own children, but a whole steaming elephant pile of it will be some really sick shiat that would horrify any sane parents of the day.
 
2014-03-23 08:01:08 PM

Igor Jakovsky: LordOfThePings:

Chair porn...da fuq?


melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-03-23 08:05:40 PM
Meh, business as usual. People out only for themselves, profit, and laziness.
 
2014-03-23 08:15:29 PM

ReapTheChaos: LordOfThePings: [melissaliegner.files.wordpress.com image 386x576]

Just when I thought I'd seen everything...


Apparently, this is "art".
http://melissaliegner.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/human-chair/
 
2014-03-23 08:29:47 PM

dragonchild: you have to first understand that you're not reading studies of how children were raised


Studies have their own criticisms. But remember:

What you're reading, in historical accounts, is what someone dained to write down. You'll never know what they left out, what they were lying about, and what is just pure fantasy without multiple sources. That's true of ANY historical account, even today.

That's what history is. Trying to find as many voices as possible and sifting out the repeating themes. Somewhere where all the voices say the same thing is the truth.
 
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