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(TampaBay.com (St. Petersburg Tim)   Church of Scientology leader David Miscavige meets with Clearwater leaders to complain about the local newspaper and discuss how best to continue taking over the city   (tampabay.com) divider line 176
    More: Florida, David Miscavige, Church of Scientology, Clearwater, Church of Scientology leader, Scientology, height restrictions  
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5922 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Mar 2014 at 9:26 AM (18 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



176 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-03-22 08:10:37 AM
Meanwhile in Texas, he's fighting tooth and nail not to have to testify in a Scientology harassment case against the wife of Miscavige's former right hand.
 
2014-03-22 08:11:43 AM
Dammit...link.
 
2014-03-22 08:31:26 AM
They are lucky he didn't use his laser vision to burn down City Hall.
 
2014-03-22 08:39:36 AM

SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.


Religion.  Such a positive force in society.
 
2014-03-22 08:40:32 AM
"Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"
 
2014-03-22 09:13:31 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: "Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"


It always instantly evoked the phrase "miscarriage of justice" for me.
 
2014-03-22 09:23:24 AM
Is that pic of him from TFA a still from American Psycho?  I expect him to start lecturing me about how much better Genesis became after Gabriel left and Phil Collins took over.
 
2014-03-22 09:29:02 AM
A hostile cult is taking over a city in Florida? Meh.
 
2014-03-22 09:31:13 AM
Did they have a sing along after? I'm partial to "Run Through the Jungle" and "Who'll Stop the Rain?"
 
2014-03-22 09:34:52 AM
Not many people look more like some fictional villain than that guy.


How weird is it that he really is a villain?
 
2014-03-22 09:37:01 AM

Relatively Obscure: Not many people look more like some fictional villain than that guy.


How weird is it that he really is a villain?


By all the accounts I've read, Scientology was pretty bad under L. Ron Hubbard, but Miscavige really lifted it to a whole new level of evil.
 
2014-03-22 09:37:04 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.


fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.
 
MFK
2014-03-22 09:37:28 AM

Relatively Obscure: Not many people look more like some fictional villain than that guy.


How weird is it that he really is a villain?


came in here to post the exact same thing.

If i were a city leader, i would try to keep this scary asshole as far away from my town as possible.
 
2014-03-22 09:38:07 AM

jake_lex: Is that pic of him from TFA a still from American Psycho?  I expect him to start lecturing me about how much better Genesis became after Gabriel left and Phil Collins took over.


Better afterwards? Evil bastard.
 
2014-03-22 09:38:18 AM
They should have asked David how his wife was doing...and to bring her along next time.
 
2014-03-22 09:42:30 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: "Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"


Whenever I see that name, I always read it as "Miscarriage"!
 
2014-03-22 09:43:53 AM
Wait, they opened the Flag Building?  Now what will they use as a continual "target" for their fundraising?  And how long before we see members who can phase through walls and revive the dead?

(The building was originally estimated to cost something like $25 million, and later $50.  It was later found out they had raised something close to $150 million for its construction, yet the building still wasn't finished for over ten years - raising the likelihood that that was the plan all along, and it was only designed as a cash cow.)
 
2014-03-22 09:44:27 AM
So a revival then?
 
2014-03-22 09:45:21 AM
I am not saying these were Thetons but these were Thetons.

/oobscurities?
 
2014-03-22 09:45:23 AM
Headline lacks snark.
 
2014-03-22 09:45:32 AM

Relatively Obscure: Not many people look more like some fictional villain than that guy.


How weird is it that he really is a villain?


Melakon/Stalin evil, with a helping of Westboro and a side order of NSA.
 
2014-03-22 09:46:55 AM
We need more global warming.
So we can have more hurricanes.
That will take aim at certain buildings in Clearwater, Florida.
So we can say "HAHA! It's an act of Xenu!"
Then we can have less global warming.
 
2014-03-22 09:47:07 AM

SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.


Bahahahahaha. That's hilarious!
 
2014-03-22 09:47:27 AM
He's one of the few famous people I actually would be nervous to meet in real life. Cause I'm not sure he really doesn't have laser beam eyes.
 
2014-03-22 09:48:54 AM
No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.
 
2014-03-22 09:50:59 AM
At first I thought, "Would any politician meet with any other crime lord this way?"  Then I remembered my governor is Pat McCrory.
 
2014-03-22 09:53:47 AM

badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.


You should try a little  harder
 
2014-03-22 09:54:59 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: "Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"


I was thinking along the lines of "Miscreant."
 
2014-03-22 09:55:41 AM

elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.


Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.
 
2014-03-22 09:57:45 AM

BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder


I see you enjoy raping babies.
 
2014-03-22 09:58:25 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.


They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.
 
2014-03-22 09:58:38 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: "Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"


It's kind of a portmanteau of Misanthrope, Carrion, and Savage, to my ear.  It evokes strong feelings of distrust and loathing, and did before I even knew anything about the guy.
 
2014-03-22 09:58:53 AM

Relatively Obscure: Not many people look more like some fictional villain than that guy.


How weird is it that he really is a villain?


The map of the world in the background was a nice touch.
 
2014-03-22 09:59:45 AM

starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.


I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?
 
2014-03-22 10:00:02 AM
I knew a guy in high school who was very intelligent.  Acted normally enough, in terms of HS students.  Ran into him a few years later and he told me that he'd joined that particular "church."  I was speaking with the same physical human, but his brain was making wharb-garble come out of his mouth.  Found out a few years later that he'd committed suicide.

/not-so-cool story, bro'
 
2014-03-22 10:00:37 AM

Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder

I see you enjoy raping babies.


Only your mom's
 
2014-03-22 10:01:19 AM

Confabulat: He's one of the few famous people I actually would be nervous to meet in real life. Cause I'm not sure he really doesn't have laser beam eyes.


Be nervous because if you say anything to offend him, he'll have his zombies murder your dog.
 
2014-03-22 10:01:38 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?


Cause a Bible is free and there are even people who put them in hotel rooms. If you want to know what's in Scientology, pull out your wallet.

That's a rather large difference to me.
 
2014-03-22 10:02:46 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?


That's not nearly as relevant as Protestant beliefs making sense to Catholics, or Jews, etc.
 
2014-03-22 10:03:18 AM
They met face to face?

Was Miscavige standing on a box? Guy is like 5 feet tall.
 
2014-03-22 10:04:33 AM

Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

Cause a Bible is free and there are even people who put them in hotel rooms. If you want to know what's in Scientology, pull out your wallet.

That's a rather large difference to me.


Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?
 
2014-03-22 10:05:18 AM

BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder

I see you enjoy raping babies.

Only your mom's


It's a Co$ thing.
 
2014-03-22 10:05:30 AM

starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

That's not nearly as relevant as Protestant beliefs making sense to Catholics, or Jews, etc.


Come again?  Not sure what that has to do with Scientology being less credible in their beliefs than other religions.
 
2014-03-22 10:05:55 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.

I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?


Credibility? No more or less. The harrasment they perpetuate is on a completely different level. Its not an unbiased source, but check out clambake.org.
 
2014-03-22 10:06:46 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?


Have you read how Scientology works? It's more or less a systematic hypnosis system. I'm no Christian, but I certainly understand the difference between a religion and a cult.
 
2014-03-22 10:11:11 AM
Was Mr Miscavige's wife at the meeting?
 
2014-03-22 10:14:09 AM

Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder

I see you enjoy raping babies.

Only your mom's

It's a Co$ thing.


I dont own any t-shirts with logos on  them
 
2014-03-22 10:15:20 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

Cause a Bible is free and there are even people who put them in hotel rooms. If you want to know what's in Scientology, pull out your wallet.

That's a rather large difference to me.

Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?


What I think is different is that we have pretty clear evidence that Co$ was a pure fabrication of L Ron Hubbard. So, with Co$, there isn't even a pretense that the people in charge actually believe any of what they peddle.
 
2014-03-22 10:15:21 AM

Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Have you read how Scientology works? It's more or less a systematic hypnosis system. I'm no Christian, but I certainly understand the difference between a religion and a cult.


Many churches use group hypnosis. Chanting, singing, and group prayer are effective tools for this. Pretty harmless. Scientology is more like a systematic brainwashing system. The main difference between a religion and a cult is the way in which you are cut off from other support systems.
 
2014-03-22 10:15:29 AM
Scientology isn't a scam religion. It's an evil Lovecraftian cult that worships a gigantic eldritch abomination that lives under the state of Florida. And that's why Florida is so crazy! Everyone there is being driven insane by being in the presence of a Lovecraftian monstrosity.
 
2014-03-22 10:15:49 AM

Relatively Obscure: Not many people look more like some fictional villain than that guy.


My first thought.
 
2014-03-22 10:15:52 AM

Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Have you read how Scientology works? It's more or less a systematic hypnosis system. I'm no Christian, but I certainly understand the difference between a religion and a cult.


^ ^ ^ ^ ^
 
2014-03-22 10:16:33 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?


By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.
 
2014-03-22 10:16:39 AM

listernine: Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.

I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

Credibility? No more or less. The harrasment they perpetuate is on a completely different level. Its not an unbiased source, but check out clambake.org.


No argument here.
 
2014-03-22 10:17:50 AM

Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Have you read how Scientology works? It's more or less a systematic hypnosis system. I'm no Christian, but I certainly understand the difference between a religion and a cult.


So, explain it to me.  Because I've never gotten anyone to give me a reason better than, "Religions are just like cults, only more people believe in them and therefore they're socially more acceptable."
 
2014-03-22 10:20:04 AM

Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.


But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.
 
2014-03-22 10:21:14 AM
Scientology leader Miscavige, Mayor Cretekos? Doesn't anyone have 'murican names any more?
 
2014-03-22 10:21:49 AM
There are some similarities between Scientology, Mormonism, & Global Warming. You invest so much of yourself into them before they tell you about the really crazy stuff. With Christianity, they tell you the really crazy stuff right off the bat.
 
2014-03-22 10:23:45 AM

Mirandized: Scientology leader Miscavige, Mayor Cretekos? Doesn't anyone have 'murican names any more?


It's a Osama Obama thing
 
2014-03-22 10:27:17 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.

I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?


the issue is not their beliefs, they're no more crazy than magic underwear or statues crying blood tears.  What people take issue with is their methods and practices.  It is here where they zoom so far away from the line of their religious peers that A) they can't even see the line, and B) they've come into and possibly crossed ANOTHER line, that of organized crime operations.
 
2014-03-22 10:27:48 AM
If you've ever gone to see a Tom Cruise or John Travolta movie, you have contributed to this insanity.

Stop it.
 
2014-03-22 10:27:54 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.


It's a bad point. Scientology is a business like Herbalife. Do people make money off Christianity? Well, duh. of course they do. But NO ONE is allowed to teach or make money off Scientology EXCEPT for the Church of Scientology, because they own all the copyrights and trademarks. There is a sort of Luther-ian offshoot of Scientology these days that doesn't recognize Miscavige's church, but they are continually being sued for trying to use L. Ron Hubbard's rather insane lessons without proper legal ability.

It's like if Disney owned the Bible.

A matter of degrees? Of course. So what? It's a ton of degrees away from any free religion.
 
2014-03-22 10:29:12 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

That's not nearly as relevant as Protestant beliefs making sense to Catholics, or Jews, etc.

Come again?  Not sure what that has to do with Scientology being less credible in their beliefs than other religions.


Are you Farking with a short attention span or do you not understand the comparison?
Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions because other religions think scientology is crazy, but think that other religions are not crazy and just believe in different things (and are wrong).
 
2014-03-22 10:30:06 AM
Read one a Elron's books one time
never heard someone talk so much and say so little...
Travolta approves
 
2014-03-22 10:30:56 AM
I have been photographed by their cameras they have at head level on their buildings in Ybor City. If you walk around their buildings there, you will be photographed several times. I sense they are trying to extract my soul from those photographs, but as of yet, they have been unsuccessful.
 
2014-03-22 10:34:21 AM

starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

That's not nearly as relevant as Protestant beliefs making sense to Catholics, or Jews, etc.

Come again?  Not sure what that has to do with Scientology being less credible in their beliefs than other religions.

Are you Farking with a short attention span or do you not understand the comparison?
Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions because other religions think scientology is crazy, but think that other religions are not crazy and just believe in different things (and are wrong).


OK, now you're just messing with me.  Word salad and all.
 
2014-03-22 10:34:28 AM
Meh, no different than what other business and religious leaders have been doing for years.
 
2014-03-22 10:35:07 AM

Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.

It's a bad point. Scientology is a business like Herbalife. Do people make money off Christianity? Well, duh. of course they do. But NO ONE is allowed to teach or make money off Scientology EXCEPT for the Church of Scientology, because they own all the copyrights and trademarks. There is a sort of Luther-ian offshoot of Scientology these days that doesn't recognize Miscavige's church, but they are continually being sued for trying to use L. Ron Hubbard's rather insane lessons without proper legal ability.

It's like if Disney owned the Bible.

A matter of degrees? Of course. So what? It's a ton of degrees away from any free religion.


<shrug>  Okay, there's no good reason then.
 
2014-03-22 10:35:31 AM

badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.


Then you haven't been paying attention.
 
2014-03-22 10:36:06 AM
So did they Clear the air?
 
2014-03-22 10:38:53 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Such a positive force in society.


Uh, I really wouldn't classify Scientology as a religion. It's a nutjob CULT hiding under the tax-benefits of a religion. Trust me, real religions wouldn't touch their actions or beliefs with a twenty foot cattle prod.
 
2014-03-22 10:41:50 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

Then you haven't been paying attention.


Or someone has been paying attention to him.
 
2014-03-22 10:43:10 AM

BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder

I see you enjoy raping babies.

Only your mom's

It's a Co$ thing.

I dont own any t-shirts with logos on  them


What I'm saying is that this is a Co$ tactic.  It's something they are trained to do when presented with critics or other opposition -- a ridiculous and extreme non sequitur.  They commonly use the "raping babies" thing.
 
2014-03-22 10:43:57 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.

It's a bad point. Scientology is a business like Herbalife. Do people make money off Christianity? Well, duh. of course they do. But NO ONE is allowed to teach or make money off Scientology EXCEPT for the Church of Scientology, because they own all the copyrights and trademarks. There is a sort of Luther-ian offshoot of Scientology these days that doesn't recognize Miscavige's church, but they are continually being sued for trying to use L. Ron Hubbard's rather insane lessons without proper legal ability.

It's like if Disney owned the Bible.

A matter of degrees? Of course. So what? It's a ton of degrees away from any free religion.

<shrug>  Okay, there's no good reason then.


It's funny to see these people sidestep the question every time.
 
2014-03-22 10:44:00 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

Then you haven't been paying attention.


I was making a joke. I criticize just about anyone. Unions, Chicago politicians, corrupt cops, mobsters. There are two groups that really intimidate me. Los Zetas and the Scientologists.
 
2014-03-22 10:44:40 AM

LtDarkstar: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Such a positive force in society.

Uh, I really wouldn't classify Scientology as a religion. It's a nutjob CULT hiding under the tax-benefits of a religion. Trust me, real religions wouldn't touch their actions or beliefs with a twenty foot cattle prod.


Oh I can't wait until you read the thread.
 
2014-03-22 10:46:43 AM

LtDarkstar: It's a nutjob CULT hiding under the tax-benefits of a religion.


Sounds like a religion to me.


Saw an ad for scientology recently on TV, first in a long long time.  They are getting ballsy again.  Somebody will remind them that they need to keep quiet soon, some scandal.
 
2014-03-22 10:47:40 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.


Let's start with even the slightest basis for reality. Historical Jesus existed. Likewise, Mohammed lived, as did Buddha. So at the very least, there is a material starting point. Compare that to Xenu. An alien made up from wholecloth by a science fiction writer. Even as a non-believer, in my mind Christianity/Islam/other already has a leg up on Scientology.

I don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead any more than I believe that Xenu blew up a volcano filled with souls. I do find a difference in a mythology about a man that actually walked the earth which can be traced to multiple sources, and Scientology.
 
2014-03-22 10:49:39 AM

lizyrd: Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.

Let's start with even the slightest basis for reality. Historical Jesus existed. Likewise, Mohammed lived, as did Buddha. So at the very least, there is a material starting point. Compare that to Xenu. An alien made up from wholecloth by a science fiction writer. Even as a non-believer, in my mind Christianity/Islam/other already has a leg up on Scientology.

I don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead any more than I believe that Xenu blew up a volcano filled with souls. I do find a difference in a mythology about a man that actually walked the earth which can be traced to multiple sources, and Scientology.


So what if jesus and mohammad and Buddha all lived?  The idea of their being divine beings is no more far-fetched than that of the idea of Xenu.
 
2014-03-22 10:51:06 AM

Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder

I see you enjoy raping babies.

Only your mom's

It's a Co$ thing.

I dont own any t-shirts with logos on  them

What I'm saying is that this is a Co$ tactic.  It's something they are trained to do when presented with critics or other opposition -- a ridiculous and extreme non sequitur.  They commonly use the "raping babies" thing.


It seems to work. I was taken aback at being called a baby raper
 
2014-03-22 10:51:35 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.


Voluntary sex vs rape. It's only a matter of degree.
A tap on the shoulder vs stabbing. It's only a matter of degree,
Lighting a fire to keep warm vs burning a building down. It's only a matter of degree.
 
2014-03-22 10:51:51 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Have you read how Scientology works? It's more or less a systematic hypnosis system. I'm no Christian, but I certainly understand the difference between a religion and a cult.

So, explain it to me.  Because I've never gotten anyone to give me a reason better than, "Religions are just like cults, only more people believe in them and therefore they're socially more acceptable."


It's quite obvious you don't actually want anyone to explain it to you
 
2014-03-22 10:53:27 AM

BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder

I see you enjoy raping babies.

Only your mom's

It's a Co$ thing.

I dont own any t-shirts with logos on  them

What I'm saying is that this is a Co$ tactic.  It's something they are trained to do when presented with critics or other opposition -- a ridiculous and extreme non sequitur.  They commonly use the "raping babies" thing.

It seems to work. I was taken aback at being called a baby raper


Mehh, I have been called that since 1970.
baby raper, woman killer, you know, deeply intellectual stuff
 
2014-03-22 10:54:37 AM

Pick: I have been photographed by their cameras they have at head level on their buildings in Ybor City. If you walk around their buildings there, you will be photographed several times. I sense they are trying to extract my soul from those photographs, but as of yet, they have been unsuccessful.


Any chance that CoS doctrine could cause paella to be banned? If it does, and they try, I will personally donate to all of their organized detractors. You have to draw the line somewhere.
 
2014-03-22 10:56:50 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.

Voluntary sex vs rape. It's only a matter of degree.

A tap on the shoulder vs stabbing. It's only a matter of degree,
Lighting a fire to keep warm vs burning a building down. It's only a matter of degree.
 
LOL, no.  All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents.  Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".
 
2014-03-22 10:57:44 AM

Mock26: So what if jesus and mohammad and Buddha all lived? The idea of their being divine beings is no more far-fetched than that of the idea of Xenu.


This part of the conversation is pretty much irrelevant.

The beliefs are not the issue, it's the actions of the 'church' that are so objectionable. If you're not sure what those actions are, a quick google will inform you.
 
2014-03-22 11:01:50 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".


False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.
 
2014-03-22 11:06:19 AM
Q:  why a cross??  Is that just simple minded propaganda?
 
2014-03-22 11:09:26 AM

Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.


Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.
 
2014-03-22 11:13:16 AM

Relatively Obscure: Not many people look more like some fictional villain than that guy.


How weird is it that he really is a villain?


In Florida, we like our villains to look the part.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-03-22 11:13:24 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

Cause a Bible is free and there are even people who put them in hotel rooms. If you want to know what's in Scientology, pull out your wallet.

That's a rather large difference to me.

Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?


OK, I'll bite. You said "ask" and what Co$ does is demand.

I'm a Catholic. My parish hits me up for money every week and when there's a fund-raising drive the basket comes around twice. That's "asking" for money and it's literally a basket being passed. (As for "how much", I kick in $5 as a rule, and $20 for major holidays or when I'm flush.) No compulsion beyond the envelopes that arrive in the mail the month prior.

When it comes to receiving the sacraments, I don't have to pay a penny; OTOH, one doesn't progress in Co$ without shelling out thousands of dollars. That's "demanding" money.

Now do you see the difference?
 
2014-03-22 11:16:28 AM

Gothnet: The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided.


I mean...maybe they are now after hundreds of years of change, but it's not like Muhammad originally invented Islam as a religion of peace. It was mostly conquer, loot, give the population the choice of the Qur'an or the sword. Jesus probably cared more about fulfilling the old prophecy of being the savior of the jews that kicks the Romans out than "saving" peoples souls from hell. We can all agree Scientology sucks though.
 
2014-03-22 11:16:52 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.

I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?


Because the Catholic church was founded 2014 years ago when people believed the Earth was flat and at the center of the Universe. Because we celebrate Christmas and Easter and Christian-lore is a part of all Westerner and Middle-Easterner's culture. It's still mumbo-jumbo, but everybody knows the story of Christ and God.

Scientology was founded in 1953 on a bet, and it postulates that thousands of giant intergalactic 747s full of aliens were flown into volcanoes, and now those alien's souls inhabit your body, and only after paying around $500,000 can you have them removed. I'm ignostic, but even I can recognize that Scientology is a completely different beast than Christianity.

Look at David Miscavige himself. Where's his wife at? Oh that's right, she went against his orders on how to run the part of the church she was in charge of and nobody has seen her since. Seriously, look this up if you don't know about it. Scientology has lost a number of celebrity members over his missing wife. (She's alive, he's just had her completely isolated for the past decade, even from her church members friends.)

All religion on some level is a cult, hell, professional sports teams have cults built around them. Starbucks is a cult, but Scientology takes it a step further and forbids you to ever have contact again with people who dont follow their religion, including your family. That makes it a cult more so than just about any other religion.

Scientology is the North Korea of religions.
 
2014-03-22 11:19:00 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".


So, "real religions" have the intent of brainwashing you, taking your entire fortune (not just 10%), forcing you to work for them for just barely enough to keep yourself alive, and will threaten to reveal every secret they forced out of you if you attempt to leave?

Say what you will about the Catholic church, but the higher-ups there at least seem to believe in NOT making people sign a billion year contract to serve in a private navy.
 
2014-03-22 11:20:48 AM

Mock26: lizyrd: Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.

Let's start with even the slightest basis for reality. Historical Jesus existed. Likewise, Mohammed lived, as did Buddha. So at the very least, there is a material starting point. Compare that to Xenu. An alien made up from wholecloth by a science fiction writer. Even as a non-believer, in my mind Christianity/Islam/other already has a leg up on Scientology.

I don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead any more than I believe that Xenu blew up a volcano filled with souls. I do find a difference in a mythology about a man that actually walked the earth which can be traced to multiple sources, and Scientology.

So what if jesus and mohammad and Buddha all lived?  The idea of their being divine beings is no more far-fetched than that of the idea of Xenu.


Yes. No shiat. I said as much.

I am trying to show the distinction I see between Scientology and more traditional religions. I don't believe in the magic from any of them. Transubstantiation is as ridiculous as thetans are. I simply hold a church that is based on the mythology of a man who really did exist, a church that developed based on written records and oral traditions of that man, in higher regard than a "church" that has no starting point other than the imagination of one man.

The end result is also in play; most Christians are pretty normal, as are most Muslims, Jews, Hindus or Buddhists. Fanatics of any stripe are the ones that make me uncomfortable. I haven't experienced an interaction with Scientologists without the hairs on the back of my neck standing up.

As far as the workings of the churches as they stand today: I was raised Catholic, and walked away from the Church in my late teens. No threats, no chasing, no one declaring me "fair game," I was free to go. By all accounts, leaving Scientology is...less than easy.
 
2014-03-22 11:26:43 AM
Uh huh.

NOW the Scinos need something from the City and it's time to meet and talk.

take a hike
 
2014-03-22 11:28:29 AM
But many of Miscavige's complaints were directed at the Times, Horne said.
"He was complaining about you guys more than anything," he said



I suddenly like the Tampa Bay Times a whole lot more.
 
2014-03-22 11:33:47 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.


I always thought  it boiled down to: we are a religion but they are a cult. I think someone upthread did have a point--generally cults try to isolate you so that you are dependent on them.
 
2014-03-22 11:35:07 AM

MFK: Relatively Obscure: Not many people look more like some fictional villain than that guy.


How weird is it that he really is a villain?

came in here to post the exact same thing.

If i were a city leader, i would try to keep this scary asshole as far away from my town as possible.


If I was a city leader I would have had my local police goons burn these farks out of town by now.
 
2014-03-22 11:35:30 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.


The creator of Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard) said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion" during an Eastern Science Fiction Association meeting on November 11, 1948.
 
2014-03-22 11:42:15 AM

teenage mutant ninja rapist: MFK: Relatively Obscure: Not many people look more like some fictional villain than that guy.


How weird is it that he really is a villain?

came in here to post the exact same thing.

If i were a city leader, i would try to keep this scary asshole as far away from my town as possible.

If I was a city leader I would have had my local police goons burn these farks out of town by now.


Quite sure the present supply of goons is spoken for.
 
2014-03-22 11:42:38 AM

Mirandized: Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.

I always thought  it boiled down to: we are a religion but they are a cult. I think someone upthread did have a point--generally cults try to isolate you so that you are dependent on them.


That makes more sense to me, though there are plenty of "real religions" that do that, too, in varying ways.
 
2014-03-22 11:43:56 AM

Without Fail: Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

The creator of Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard) said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion" during an Eastern Science Fiction Association meeting on November 11, 1948.


Do you really think that, of all the sects of all the "real religions" in the world, none of them was created equally cynically?
 
2014-03-22 11:44:00 AM

elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.


Even Christianity was looked upon as a cult in it's early days.
 
2014-03-22 11:44:08 AM

PawisBetlog: Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.

I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

the issue is not their beliefs, they're no more crazy than magic underwear or statues crying blood tears.  What people take issue with is their methods and practices.  It is here where they zoom so far away from the line of their religious peers that A) they can't even see the line, and B) they've come into and possibly crossed ANOTHER line, that of organized crime operations.


To illustrate this point let me say this. About 10 years ago I walked into a church of scientology to see what all the fuss was about. Bought a copy of dianetics and got about 100 pages into it. I wanted space aliens to self help dime store psychology.

that did not stop them from phoning me for 6 months trying to hussle me into spending lots of money on these dumb ass classes and courses they put on.

I never once had a priest call me at 10 pm demanding me a collection from me.

the last conversation I had with them went like this. They said to me "we just dont think you're very serious about this"
to which I replied " I am not. And I never was"
 
2014-03-22 11:47:42 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Tyrone Slothrop: Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.

Voluntary sex vs rape. It's only a matter of degree.
A tap on the shoulder vs stabbing. It's only a matter of degree,
Lighting a fire to keep warm vs burning a building down. It's only a matter of degree.
 
LOL, no.  All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents.  Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".


Yar matey ya be dealing with a troll. And not a very good one at that. She blows!
 
2014-03-22 11:48:16 AM

SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.


I haven't read much about the church since maybe last June, so thank you for the link. Miscavige is a midget with a huge temper and acts like an entitled ass. I am hoping that Mrs. Rathbun cleans him out.
 
2014-03-22 11:50:12 AM

Mirandized: Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.

I always thought  it boiled down to: we are a religion but they are a cult. I think someone upthread did have a point--generally cults try to isolate you so that you are dependent on them.


So when my youth pastor told us all that we were sheep without a shepherd, but that he could *totally* lead us because *reasons,* what exactly was he trying to do there?
 
2014-03-22 11:56:46 AM
If any of you young 'uns are baffled by all the hubbub (ha) over Scientology. you may want to take a look over here.
 
2014-03-22 11:58:38 AM
Well let us not overlook a HUGE difference between Scientology and most standard religions:

Scientology requires you to spend many hours in courses that are designed to brainwash and hypnotize you. I used to own one of L. Ron's course original course manuals from his early courses, and that stuff is like LSD.

Scientology is designed to redesign the person's entire way of thinking and even their vocabulary. L. Ron ripped off a lot of early hypnosis and psychology theories, but he did manage to make it work incredibly well.

Sure you could argue all religions involve a bit of brainwashing and whatnot, but L. Ron wrote out detailed instructions. You either make that ashtray levitate or spend another few thousand trying again next time.
 
2014-03-22 11:58:58 AM

otviiisgrrr8.files.wordpress.comjonathanturley.files.wordpress.comSecretAgentWoman: Meanwhile in Texas, he's fighting tooth and nail not to have to testify in a Scientology harassment case against the wife of Miscavige's former right hand.



That right hand man was the 'enforcer' responsible for more than a few deaths. When two evil people get into an argument, there is no good side.
 
2014-03-22 12:00:59 PM
Confession is kind of weird. But the Catholic Church does not record your confessions so that they could later be used as blackmail. Like Scientology or the NSA.

/not that Scientology would ever attempt to infiltrate a government agency.
 
2014-03-22 12:08:16 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.


Other religions demand cash for progress through a system of levels ?
Do they promise you special powers if you pay them lots of money ?
Are they based on esoteric nonsense by a convicted scam artist ?
Do they hide their scripture and only let you look at it for payment ? by the way, anyone notices a common theme to all of thi$ ?
Do they also keep folders of potential blackmail material on their followers ?

And i'm not getting into classic cult stuff here like forced slavery, family disconnection, brainwashing etc.
 
2014-03-22 12:10:46 PM

Without Fail: Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

The creator of Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard) said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion" during an Eastern Science Fiction Association meeting on November 11, 1948.


Boom. Nailed it. And Benevolent Misanthrope is now tagged 'Secret Scientologist'.
 
2014-03-22 12:12:27 PM

SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.


Never forget these are the people who infiltrated the IRS and made Clinton force the IRS to grant them dispensation as a 'religion' ..

Tom Cruise can kill you with his mind.
 
2014-03-22 12:16:39 PM
Does Scientology make peoples' lives better? Let's ask Lisa McPherson!
 
2014-03-22 12:16:46 PM
www.tampabay.com
Doesn't look evil at all.
 
2014-03-22 12:17:52 PM

SoupJohnB: I knew a guy in high school who was very intelligent.  Acted normally enough, in terms of HS students.  Ran into him a few years later and he told me that he'd joined that particular "church."  I was speaking with the same physical human, but his brain was making wharb-garble come out of his mouth.  Found out a few years later that he'd committed suicide.

/not-so-cool story, bro'


The one guy I knew who got involved had a similar outcome.  Started talking about things being "very animated" and "point a to point b", and eventually started pushing a grocery cart around containing his earthly belongings.  Haven't seen him for a number of years.
 
2014-03-22 12:18:54 PM
meh, at least the scientologists are up front about the money thing.  they don't wrap it up in nice sounding words like "tithes".   their honesty in scamming people is almost refreshing.
feed the poor, read our book, and do everything that we tell you and think everything that we tell you and you'll live forever in a magic garden with talking bushes and dudes who have bears murder kids who make fun of bald people.
 
2014-03-22 12:21:08 PM

stuffy: [www.tampabay.com image 702x498]
Doesn't look evil at all.


The orbital interphasic Maser control panel and targeting system are in the next room. This was taken just prior to his overriding the TV band to address the United Nations with his ultimatum.
 
2014-03-22 12:23:27 PM

stuffy: [www.tampabay.com image 702x498]
Doesn't look evil at all.


What?
They cut the legs off of a perfectly good desk?
 
2014-03-22 12:23:34 PM

Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.


He has never really been known to be that bright or intellectually honest on Fark.
 
2014-03-22 12:30:11 PM

The_Hound: Without Fail: Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

The creator of Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard) said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion" during an Eastern Science Fiction Association meeting on November 11, 1948.

Boom. Nailed it. And Benevolent Misanthrope is now tagged 'Secret Scientologist'.


Now that's comedy.
 
2014-03-22 12:41:54 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.


EVERYTHING is only just a matter of degrees.  You are being obtuse because you want to be the anti-religious cool guy leaning against the side of the school with the pack of smokes rolled up in your sleeve. If you can't see the difference between the two, then I hope you dont have a job that requires critical thinking or sharp objects.
 
2014-03-22 12:47:49 PM

Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

Cause a Bible is free and there are even people who put them in hotel rooms. If you want to know what's in Scientology, pull out your wallet.

That's a rather large difference to me.


/you sound small walleted :)
 
2014-03-22 12:52:45 PM

The Billdozer: Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.

EVERYTHING is only just a matter of degrees.  You are being obtuse because you want to be the anti-religious cool guy leaning against the side of the school with the pack of smokes rolled up in your sleeve. If you can't see the difference between the two, then I hope you dont have a job that requires critical thinking or sharp objects.


And we're now back to insults.  No one seems to think about this.  Kind of sad, really.
 
2014-03-22 12:56:17 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: And we're now back to insults. No one seems to think about this. Kind of sad, really.


No, what's kinda sad you profess not to be able to see any difference yourself, in order to attract attention to yourself on an internet message board.
 
2014-03-22 12:57:08 PM

Confabulat: You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.


Being a mystery cult doesn't mean it's not a religion.  That's how Catholicism worked for about 1000 years when they were intentionally and explicitly suppressing literacy to avoid having anyone but priests read the scripture, and it's still how a solid fraction of protestant denominations and a good chunk of Buddhist and Hindu sects work, meaning the behavior occurs in every major religion at times except Islam.

It is the reason we're significantly less hesitant to just arrest the biatches for their bullshiat, though, yes.
 
2014-03-22 01:04:33 PM

FnkyTwn: Scientology is the North Korea of religions.


This.
 
2014-03-22 01:05:40 PM

stuffy: [www.tampabay.com image 702x498]
Doesn't look evil at all.


i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-03-22 01:06:18 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.

I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?


L Ron Hubbard is on record saying to Robert Heinlein that he wanted to create a fake religion for profit.
 
2014-03-22 01:09:26 PM

indy_kid: PC LOAD LETTER: "Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"

Whenever I see that name, I always read it as "Miscarriage"!


img.fark.net
 
2014-03-22 01:10:39 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.


As a sociological query the matter is far from settled. Though it is an interesting aspect of the sociology of religion.

If you want to read about the topic here are some good people to start with:

Max Weber

Rodney Stark

Paul Schnabel (He applies Stark's cult typology to the Scientology movement as a whole.)

Though the whole argument of cult vs. religion can be boiled down to this straight forward and completely useful pic:

upload.wikimedia.org

Which is from here.
 
2014-03-22 01:11:37 PM

Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: And we're now back to insults. No one seems to think about this. Kind of sad, really.

No, what's kinda sad you profess not to be able to see any difference yourself, in order to attract attention to yourself on an internet message board.


Honestly - once we strip away the excuses, at the heart of it, I don't.  Where is the line?  I don't know.  I know that there's a continuum, I know that people very clearly think there's a difference between religion and cult, but I can't for the life of me quantify the differences beyond a few oddities that are applicable to both in several cases anyway.  For example:

Cults have a single leader to whom people are loyal.  So did the Catholic Church, though the pope is not nearly so influential now as he was in the Middle Ages.  And religious orders (I am in a unique position to understand this) absolutely admit internally that they are cultish, and so what.

Cults make you dependent on them.  But I grew up in a church that required money and separating ourselves from "the world", not as obviously as the Moonies, but I couldn't socialize outside our church as a child, for example, because it was our teaching.  My single parent did not attend the church, but I did (grandparents) - and the church worked hard to drive a wedge between myself and my caregiver.

I look at sites that say what the differences are - but I see examples of those "cult" behaviors in religions every day.  It's as if people are so attached to the idea of "Religion = Good" that they can't take an honest look at it.  And so when I try to - even among such a contentious group as Farkers, who shouldn't be so interested in the status quo - I get insults, circular logic, presentation of opinion as fact... but no further in understanding the issue.

I should give it up.  But I'd really like to know.
 
2014-03-22 01:25:24 PM
Some people have faces that just beg to be punched. This guy is one of them.

img.fark.net
 
2014-03-22 01:43:05 PM

PC LOAD LETTER: "Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"


Yes, and look at the pic in the article. He even looks like a cartoon villain.
 
2014-03-22 01:46:58 PM

farkinglizardking: Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.

I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

L Ron Hubbard is on record saying to Robert Heinlein that he wanted to create a fake religion for profit.


It started as a joke and side bet between novelists.
This is back in snail mail and fanzine days, hard to really cite now.
You kinda had to be there.
 
2014-03-22 01:56:27 PM
Are they planning on building another big-ass building in downtown Clearwater?

I do like the Tampa Bay Times though. They're run by a journalism school and the quality of the stories in the paper would indicate such.

If the Scientologists are upset at them. They mist be doing their job.
 
2014-03-22 02:02:11 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Cults have a single leader to whom people are loyal. So did the Catholic Church, though the pope is not nearly so influential now as he was in the Middle Ages.


That's not really an accurate comparison. Cults tend to form around a single charismatic leader - one specific person (Elron, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, etc.).  Catholics look to the pope for leadership, but they're respecting the position, not one man in particular.

Of course, I suppose one could extend it out further and refer to Christianity, Islam, and perhaps Buddhism as "cults" by that definition.  Judaism and Hinduism wouldn't really qualify, though.
 
2014-03-22 02:05:54 PM

cgremlin: Benevolent Misanthrope: Cults have a single leader to whom people are loyal. So did the Catholic Church, though the pope is not nearly so influential now as he was in the Middle Ages.

That's not really an accurate comparison. Cults tend to form around a single charismatic leader - one specific person (Elron, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, etc.).  Catholics look to the pope for leadership, but they're respecting the position, not one man in particular.

Of course, I suppose one could extend it out further and refer to Christianity, Islam, and perhaps Buddhism as "cults" by that definition.  Judaism and Hinduism wouldn't really qualify, though.


Every band needs a FRONT MAN.
 
2014-03-22 02:06:00 PM
After months of discord between his church and the city, Church of Scientology leader David Miscavige reached out this week to Clearwater leaders, arranging a sit-down in the church's Fort Harrison Hotel to iron out their differences.

The church owns the hotel.  I just thought this needed to be emphasized.
 
2014-03-22 02:07:13 PM

psychicdeath99: Some people have faces that just beg to be punched. This guy is one of them.

[img.fark.net image 702x498]


Is that a tiny kitten waving from that chair?
 
2014-03-22 02:12:05 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Billdozer: Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.

EVERYTHING is only just a matter of degrees.  You are being obtuse because you want to be the anti-religious cool guy leaning against the side of the school with the pack of smokes rolled up in your sleeve. If you can't see the difference between the two, then I hope you dont have a job that requires critical thinking or sharp objects.

And we're now back to insults.  No one seems to think about this.  Kind of sad, really.



You're the only one here who's not thinking dude. Your debate style was probably awesome in 6th grade, but on a forum, with other people, you're falling short. 3 pages of people telling you what sets Scientology apart from other religions so far, and you're still not getting it, AND you seem unable to read anything else on the internet about to subject.

I'm just going to assume you're just trolling at this point.

1/10
 
2014-03-22 02:14:33 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.


From a humanitarian point of view, most religions are a socializing influence; they teach love, tolerance, forgiveness, working together, right from wrong, and so on (though most don't follow those teachings well). Scientology on the other hand is distinctly anti-social; get what you can, take down those that oppose you in any way you can get away with, hoard knowledge and don't share unless you get something for it, ties should be broken if your beliefs differ, anyone not with us is an enemy, and so on. I'm an atheist, but I can clearly see the disconnect between what should be considered a religion and what should be considered a cult. Religions go hand in hand with society. Cults separate, fight, and try to subsume or substitute themselves for society.
 
2014-03-22 02:15:09 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.


There's actual historical evidence for the existence of some people mentioned in Judaism, Chrisitanity, and Islam. Whether one ascribes to those beliefs or not is another matter--there is some historical evidence that some people and all nations and cultures (Egypt & the Pharoahs, Babylon  & Nebuchadnezzar, Persia & Xerxes, Greece, Rome & Herod, the Caesars, Muhammad, Syria...to name a few) mentioned by name in the books that those religions espouse as holy actually did exist on earth at one time. One does not have to agree with the spiritualism or dogma associated with any of those religions to acknowledge the historical and archaeological evidence of the existence of several of those people and places as being real people who lived and real places that existed (or in some cases, still exist). One may choose to associate with whom they will, one may choose to give money or not (and the max that is asked of Christians by GOD, not by man, is 10%), one may choose to disagree with the doctrines taught--and still remain a part of the church with no hard feelings, according to what the holy text says (note: this does not apply to how men teach or interpret the text; this only applies to what the text actually says). Further, in Christianity, the text says that Christians are only to hold other Christians accountable for "sin," that we have no right to hold non-Christians accountable to live a life which they have not agreed to live (yeah, so many Christians gloss that one over). You'll note that most Jewish practitioners don't act like Christians--even Messianic Jews. Ask yourself why that is. Christians who actually follow the text of the bible are not to aggressively fight anyone who speaks negatively of them, or of their beliefs.

Scientology, if I understand it correctly, posits that an alien was exiled, lives in a volcano, and populates humanity with his bad aliens that make human beings do bad things and only answering deeply personal questions, starting at age 6 while holding round cylinders hooked up to some sort of an electronic device, giving all your money and possessions away, severing all connections with all those who disagree with the doctrines of the "church", and generally recruiting new followers aggressively while aggressively pursuing to the point of stalking and harassing those who leave the church can make these bad aliens go away and induce a state of rightness of mind. Aggressively fighting/arguing with anyone who says anything negative at all about their organization or disagrees with the organization's stance "proves" this rightness of mind. Tucking people away in forced labor, akin to concentration camp like conditions, by all accounts, for having "sinned" against the organization is meant to produce rightness of mind and purge one of the aliens inhabiting the mind and body, forcing one to commit terrible acts against the organization that they wouldn't commit if not for the volcano aliens inhabiting them.

That's not to say that all Christians--even myself, because I can be a royal jackass at times--live up to what we are supposed to be, or that all Jews or Muslims do, either. Nor is it to say that all Scientologists are like Tom Cruise or David Miscavige (I know a couple who are really nice people and who you wouldn't know were Scientologists until they told you because they actually seem very sane and well-balanced, very normal). But you asked about credibility. Being able to prove that real people and places actually existed on earth and "I act like a jerk because I'm human and sometimes humans are complete jerks" versus "I do bad things because volcano aliens possess humans" does kind of tip the credibility scales in favor of pretty much every major religion (including several I haven't discussed--Buddhism, Hinduism, etc--because I'm not well versed enough in them to be able to discuss them intelligently) over Scientology.
 
2014-03-22 02:26:59 PM

Aigoo: :words:


That's all well and good dude, but who wrote the history books? Why does anything have to be true? It still doesn't explain it enough for him. You're gonna have put him through a course in critical thinking first, then eventually baby-step him into it.
 
2014-03-22 02:28:51 PM
Being able to prove that real people and places actually existed on earth and "I act like a jerk because I'm human and sometimes humans are complete jerks" versus "I do bad things because volcano aliens possess humans" does kind of tip the credibility scales in favor of pretty much every major religion (including several I haven't discussed--Buddhism, Hinduism, etc--because I'm not well versed enough in them to be able to discuss them intelligently) over Scientology.

Perhaps I'll never get it.  Because "An alien was exiled, lives in a volcano, and populates humanity with his bad aliens that make human beings do bad things and only answering deeply personal questions, starting at age 6 while holding round cylinders hooked up to some sort of an electronic device, giving all your money and possessions away, severing all connections with all those who disagree with the doctrines of the "church", and generally recruiting new followers aggressively while aggressively pursuing to the point of stalking and harassing those who leave the church can make these bad aliens go away and induce a state of rightness of mind" is no more far-fetched to me than "A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."
 
2014-03-22 02:46:48 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.


With older religions, the origins are long enough in the past that you can give them a little benefit of the doubt that maybe some amazing miracles really happened back at the dawn of history, like angels and burning bushes, or maybe it was something weird that ancient peoples misinterpreted like alien visitation or something like that. With Scientology and Mormonism, we KNOW the founders were scam artists making shiat up, so we can dismiss both religions out of hand much easier than more established religions.
 
2014-03-22 02:47:32 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Being able to prove that real people and places actually existed on earth and "I act like a jerk because I'm human and sometimes humans are complete jerks" versus "I do bad things because volcano aliens possess humans" does kind of tip the credibility scales in favor of pretty much every major religion (including several I haven't discussed--Buddhism, Hinduism, etc--because I'm not well versed enough in them to be able to discuss them intelligently) over Scientology.

Perhaps I'll never get it.  Because "An alien was exiled, lives in a volcano, and populates humanity with his bad aliens that make human beings do bad things and only answering deeply personal questions, starting at age 6 while holding round cylinders hooked up to some sort of an electronic device, giving all your money and possessions away, severing all connections with all those who disagree with the doctrines of the "church", and generally recruiting new followers aggressively while aggressively pursuing to the point of stalking and harassing those who leave the church can make these bad aliens go away and induce a state of rightness of mind" is no more far-fetched to me than "A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."


Dude I stopped believing in God before I stopped believing in Santa Claus. Again, it's not about the belief, it's about the structure built around that belief.
 
2014-03-22 03:41:39 PM

PC LOAD LETTER: "Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"


"I shall name you...Darth Miscavige."

img3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-03-22 03:43:52 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for mone


Other churches ask for money.  Some very aggressively.  Scientology requires you to give them money.
 
2014-03-22 03:51:03 PM

psychicdeath99: Some people have faces that just beg to be punched. This guy is one of them.

[img.fark.net image 702x498]


Interestingly, his leadership style appears to involve having staff beat the shiat out of each other.
 
2014-03-22 03:51:11 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.


In a book debating whether the ancient druidic tradition was "cultic" or "religious" it came down to the difference between the presence of a group of full time religious specialists. Professional religious specialists were the defining characteristic of a religion, cults do not have a professional class like that.

Now that was based on European anthropological traditions which vary significantly sometimes from American anthropological perspectives.

From an academic point of view I would suggest that more important than that is the relative openness of the faith. Religions are classed according to whether they are proselytizing or not. Many faiths such as Judaism, Shinto and many Native American belief systems are closed. Only those born into the faith should practice it, often because of a belief that each person is born into a particular family for a reason. To switch to another is to risk insulting both those one abandons and those one decides to worship. Generally they hold views like "many paths lead to the same place" or "Just as God gave us five fingers, so he gave us many ways to approach him." That is not always the case but most do not question the validity of other faiths for other people in other places.

Proselytizing faiths tend to be more of an asshole. They claim exclusiveness. They are the Christians, Muslims, etc. Some such as the Baha'i are chill about the whole thing but still claim ultimate authority.

Now, there have always been those deemed "cults" and often they claimed that teem for themselves, like the Greek mystery cults like those built up around Pythagoras and Epicurus.

The thing about cults is that they are closed. They are "proselytizing" but very carefully control access to what is really going on. They hide details even from their own members, requiring acts of loyalty, tests and so on before the "next level" is revealed. And they tend to seek retribution against those who reveal their mysteries.

I couldn't even tell you if CoS counts as a religion by the definition of professional specialist class devoted to ritual, because despite being prosetylizing they don't let enough knowledge get out to answer that question. It is this secrecy combined with levels of mysteric knowledge and reputation for retribution that marks them as a cult.

The attempted infiltration and overthrow of the US government makes them idiot subversive cultists. Their hunting down and allegedly killing apostates made them idiotic, subversive and dangerous cultists.
 
2014-03-22 04:30:03 PM

taliesinwi: Wait, they opened the Flag Building?  Now what will they use as a continual "target" for their fundraising?  And how long before we see members who can phase through walls and revive the dead?

(The building was originally estimated to cost something like $25 million, and later $50.  It was later found out they had raised something close to $150 million for its construction, yet the building still wasn't finished for over ten years - raising the likelihood that that was the plan all along, and it was only designed as a cash cow.)


So Putin secretly used Scientology staff and accounting techniques to build the venues for the Sochi Winter Olympics then?
 
2014-03-22 04:30:58 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Being able to prove that real people and places actually existed on earth and "I act like a jerk because I'm human and sometimes humans are complete jerks" versus "I do bad things because volcano aliens possess humans" does kind of tip the credibility scales in favor of pretty much every major religion (including several I haven't discussed--Buddhism, Hinduism, etc--because I'm not well versed enough in them to be able to discuss them intelligently) over Scientology.

Perhaps I'll never get it.  Because "An alien was exiled, lives in a volcano, and populates humanity with his bad aliens that make human beings do bad things and only answering deeply personal questions, starting at age 6 while holding round cylinders hooked up to some sort of an electronic device, giving all your money and possessions away, severing all connections with all those who disagree with the doctrines of the "church", and generally recruiting new followers aggressively while aggressively pursuing to the point of stalking and harassing those who leave the church can make these bad aliens go away and induce a state of rightness of mind" is no more far-fetched to me than "A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."



Well, for starters, Christ was never a zombie.

But that's OK. You can go and tell your masters you derailed a discussion on Fark. Maybe they'll let you out of Sea Org this time.
 
2014-03-22 04:31:34 PM

Turfshoe: They met face to face?

Was Miscavige standing on a box? Guy is like 5 feet tall.


Why do you think he keeps Tom Cruise around?
 
2014-03-22 04:35:25 PM

snocone: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder

I see you enjoy raping babies.

Only your mom's

It's a Co$ thing.

I dont own any t-shirts with logos on  them

What I'm saying is that this is a Co$ tactic.  It's something they are trained to do when presented with critics or other opposition -- a ridiculous and extreme non sequitur.  They commonly use the "raping babies" thing.

It seems to work. I was taken aback at being called a baby raper

Mehh, I have been called that since 1970.
baby raper, woman killer, you know, deeply intellectual stuff


Baby raper? At least nobody here is being called something far worse- A Republican Party supporter. Now THAT would be an insult you could not walk away from without laying down a serious hardass smackdown on the name caller!
 
2014-03-22 04:50:17 PM

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: SecretAgentWoman: Meanwhile in Texas, he's fighting tooth and nail not to have to testify in a Scientology harassment case against the wife of Miscavige's former right hand.


That right hand man was the 'enforcer' responsible for more than a few deaths. When two evil people get into an argument, there is no good side.


I'm curious to know what Shorty did to earn all those ribbons...
 
2014-03-22 04:57:17 PM

stuffy: [www.tampabay.com image 702x498]
Doesn't look evil at all.


It looks like the dark spots on the map is where they have a presence. He has a long way to go for world domination. I wish him luck in that. Eventually he will step on the wrong toes.
 
2014-03-22 06:35:58 PM
Cars are the same as vans. They are both vehicles with wheels and such.

Why can anyone not tell me the difference? I just can't see it. It is just a matter of degree.
 
2014-03-22 07:15:58 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.


I'm still not sure if you are trolling or not, but I'll take a shot.

Scientology is more concerned with recruiting people who have money and are wiling to pay for their services/enlightenment. They tend to hook people with "personality tests", and from there, they hope the new recruits will bring in friends, family, and so on. Of course, the personality tests will indicate that they have some sort of flaw, and oh-my-goodness we happen to have a course that will help you to overcome that flaw! It's only $xx! The amounts are small at first, but over time, each new book, their "truth machines", their religious doctrines, all require more and more money to progress along their road to salvation. These salvation levels are referred to as Thetans, with the current highest being 7. There are rumors of a level 9, but I have only found reference to that in one or two sources, so I'll stick to 7 for now.

Now, lets pretend that Suzy Smith, who took that free personality test, finds herself another Scilon and they have kids. Well, of course they are going to want to raise Bobby Jr in the church, so they enroll him in Scientology-based schools that teach their own curriculum and helps to insulate the children from outside influences. Then there is the Billion-Year Contract that they push on kids, sometimes as young as 6. But for argument's sake, lets say that Bobby Jr was 12 when he signed, and his parents, devoted Scions that they are, agreed to let him travel around the world as a member of Sea Org, their priesthood. Bobby is then relegated to hard menial labor for little or no pay. Scions have their own language and terminology, and they do well to keep their "crew" insulated from outside negative influences... so by having their own society, hierarchy, lingo, and teaching Scions to buy the newest book or two donate money for another building (Sea Org members get it all for free... except if they leave the church then they are billed outrageous amounts of money for those training materials).

People who were raised in Scientology, when they leave, they often cannot function within society. Permission for everything that most of us would consider a basic right, such as carrying a driver's license, is only granted if you have a legitimate need to operate a vehicle, and oftentimes they take all forms of identification from members and lock it in the office safe. Thus, even if they wanted to leave, Scientology has their paperwork and will require them to take long, deeply personal "sec checks" before they can leave. Sometimes these last for hours, other times, days. Then from there, once they are free, many times their friends and family are forced to cut off contact with them, since they are now an outcast.

While I could explain more, like I said, I am still not sure if you are trolling or not, but this is the reader's digest version of their operations. Whether or not their religious doctrine is right, I cannot say. But I can state that the isolationist and operational ethics match those of many cults, and most people who defect from Scientology often refer to the brainwashing tactics.
 
2014-03-22 07:18:02 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".


Easy. Pope Francis believes that Jesus was the son of God, died and rise again. Ayatollah Khamenei believes that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. The Dalai Lama believes in reincarnation. Does anybody seriously think that Mr Hubbard or Mr Miscavige believe(d) a word of the Xenu stuff?
 
2014-03-22 07:55:15 PM

Turfshoe: They met face to face?

Was Miscavige standing on a box? Guy is like 5 feet tall.


giggle

He IS a lil'fella ill give you that
 
2014-03-22 10:34:11 PM

Gothnet: Mock26: So what if jesus and mohammad and Buddha all lived? The idea of their being divine beings is no more far-fetched than that of the idea of Xenu.

This part of the conversation is pretty much irrelevant.

The beliefs are not the issue, it's the actions of the 'church' that are so objectionable. If you're not sure what those actions are, a quick google will inform you.


All "churches" out there have actions that are objectionable.  The church of scientology is no worse than, for example, the catcholic church.  It is just a different shade of objectionable actions.
 
2014-03-22 11:35:01 PM

badhatharry: Confession is kind of weird. But the Catholic Church does not record your confessions so that they could later be used as blackmail. Like Scientology or the NSA.

/not that Scientology would ever attempt to infiltrate a government agency.


shiat. Thanks for the nightmares.
 
2014-03-22 11:39:27 PM

LtDarkstar: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Such a positive force in society.

Uh, I really wouldn't classify Scientology as a religion. It's a nutjob CULT hiding under the tax-benefits of a religion. Trust me, real religions wouldn't touch their actions or beliefs with a twenty foot cattle prod.


How you feel about scientology is how some of us feel about all religions.
 
2014-03-22 11:51:04 PM

orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".

Easy. Pope Francis believes that Jesus was the son of God, died and rise again. Ayatollah Khamenei believes that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. The Dalai Lama believes in reincarnation. Does anybody seriously think that Mr Hubbard or Mr Miscavige believe(d) a word of the Xenu stuff?


So the problem is its too new and people still know it's a lie.

But in a few centuries the leaders of scientology will believe the lie like those you mentioned for Christianity and Islam do.
 
2014-03-23 12:26:48 AM

Gothnet: No, what's kinda sad you profess not to be able to see any difference yourself, in order to attract attention to yourself on an internet message board.


Internet message board?  You sound bulletin board service savvy!

/i may have dialed a few
 
2014-03-23 01:20:54 AM
My mother and father were married by the Church of Scientology, my father was a memeber.  When his mental illness was developing, on their advice he avoided medication and treatment.  Let me say that I did not have a happy childhood.

Now as a man, they call me and solicit donations.   Sharing the same name as my father I understand the mistake and asked them to remove my name from their lists.  On the second call, I explained the pain and suffering I endured as a boy partially due to them and asked again to remove my name from their lists and to cease calling me.

Finally, today they called.  Od it was this morning....well I explained again all that i had before.  I also added in the fact that if they call me again that I will find their call center, fly to it's city, go their on it's busiest day and chain it's doors shut.  Then i will burn the building down with all of them inside.   I farking hate these guys.
 
2014-03-23 01:35:02 AM

bromah: My mother and father were married by the Church of Scientology, my father was a memeber.  When his mental illness was developing, on their advice he avoided medication and treatment.  Let me say that I did not have a happy childhood.

Now as a man, they call me and solicit donations.   Sharing the same name as my father I understand the mistake and asked them to remove my name from their lists.  On the second call, I explained the pain and suffering I endured as a boy partially due to them and asked again to remove my name from their lists and to cease calling me.

Finally, today they called.  Od it was this morning....well I explained again all that i had before.  I also added in the fact that if they call me again that I will find their call center, fly to it's city, go their on it's busiest day and chain it's doors shut.  Then i will burn the building down with all of them inside.   I farking hate these guys.



CSB
 
2014-03-23 01:51:43 AM
Ya ever get the feeling when you hear "but all religions are bad" in a Scientology thread that it's some sort of twisted Scientology "talking point?" In one way or another, it does put them in the same field as other religious entities.

I mean, as opposed to purely being a money making scam masquerading as a church.
 
2014-03-23 04:11:47 AM
Scientology is to religion as Fox News is to journalism
 
2014-03-23 07:29:56 AM

gwenners: Ya ever get the feeling when you hear "but all religions are bad" in a Scientology thread that it's some sort of twisted Scientology "talking point?" In one way or another, it does put them in the same field as other religious entities.

I mean, as opposed to purely being a money making scam masquerading as a church.


Pretty much. That's what scientologists want, to be thought of as just the same as other religions.
 
2014-03-23 08:43:10 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.

It's a bad point. Scientology is a business like Herbalife. Do people make money off Christianity? Well, duh. of course they do. But NO ONE is allowed to teach or make money off Scientology EXCEPT for the Church of Scientology, because they own all the copyrights and trademarks. There is a sort of Luther-ian offshoot of Scientology these days that doesn't recognize Miscavige's church, but they are continually being sued for trying to use L. Ron Hubbard's rather insane lessons without proper legal ability.

It's like if Disney owned the Bible.

A matter of degrees? Of course. So what? It's a ton of degrees away from any free religion.

<shrug>  Okay, there's no good reason then.


He's just a troll with a TF subscription. Quit feeding him. If he doesn't understand the difference then let him live in blissful unawareness.
 
2014-03-23 09:51:43 AM
Scientology don't pay tax! Real religion!
 
2014-03-23 10:14:16 AM

Do you know the way to Mordor: snocone: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder

I see you enjoy raping babies.

Only your mom's

It's a Co$ thing.

I dont own any t-shirts with logos on  them

What I'm saying is that this is a Co$ tactic.  It's something they are trained to do when presented with critics or other opposition -- a ridiculous and extreme non sequitur.  They commonly use the "raping babies" thing.

It seems to work. I was taken aback at being called a baby raper

Mehh, I have been called that since 1970.
baby raper, woman killer, you know, deeply intellectual stuff

Baby raper? At least nobody here is being called something far worse- A Republican Party supporter. Now THAT would be an insult you could not walk away from without laying down a serious hardass smackdown on the name caller!


I am certainly glad that the VC in the wire did not know that insult.
 
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