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(TampaBay.com (St. Petersburg Tim)   Church of Scientology leader David Miscavige meets with Clearwater leaders to complain about the local newspaper and discuss how best to continue taking over the city   (tampabay.com) divider line 176
    More: Florida, David Miscavige, Church of Scientology, Clearwater, Church of Scientology leader, Scientology, height restrictions  
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5936 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Mar 2014 at 9:26 AM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-22 03:43:52 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for mone


Other churches ask for money.  Some very aggressively.  Scientology requires you to give them money.
 
2014-03-22 03:51:03 PM  

psychicdeath99: Some people have faces that just beg to be punched. This guy is one of them.

[img.fark.net image 702x498]


Interestingly, his leadership style appears to involve having staff beat the shiat out of each other.
 
2014-03-22 03:51:11 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.


In a book debating whether the ancient druidic tradition was "cultic" or "religious" it came down to the difference between the presence of a group of full time religious specialists. Professional religious specialists were the defining characteristic of a religion, cults do not have a professional class like that.

Now that was based on European anthropological traditions which vary significantly sometimes from American anthropological perspectives.

From an academic point of view I would suggest that more important than that is the relative openness of the faith. Religions are classed according to whether they are proselytizing or not. Many faiths such as Judaism, Shinto and many Native American belief systems are closed. Only those born into the faith should practice it, often because of a belief that each person is born into a particular family for a reason. To switch to another is to risk insulting both those one abandons and those one decides to worship. Generally they hold views like "many paths lead to the same place" or "Just as God gave us five fingers, so he gave us many ways to approach him." That is not always the case but most do not question the validity of other faiths for other people in other places.

Proselytizing faiths tend to be more of an asshole. They claim exclusiveness. They are the Christians, Muslims, etc. Some such as the Baha'i are chill about the whole thing but still claim ultimate authority.

Now, there have always been those deemed "cults" and often they claimed that teem for themselves, like the Greek mystery cults like those built up around Pythagoras and Epicurus.

The thing about cults is that they are closed. They are "proselytizing" but very carefully control access to what is really going on. They hide details even from their own members, requiring acts of loyalty, tests and so on before the "next level" is revealed. And they tend to seek retribution against those who reveal their mysteries.

I couldn't even tell you if CoS counts as a religion by the definition of professional specialist class devoted to ritual, because despite being prosetylizing they don't let enough knowledge get out to answer that question. It is this secrecy combined with levels of mysteric knowledge and reputation for retribution that marks them as a cult.

The attempted infiltration and overthrow of the US government makes them idiot subversive cultists. Their hunting down and allegedly killing apostates made them idiotic, subversive and dangerous cultists.
 
2014-03-22 04:30:03 PM  

taliesinwi: Wait, they opened the Flag Building?  Now what will they use as a continual "target" for their fundraising?  And how long before we see members who can phase through walls and revive the dead?

(The building was originally estimated to cost something like $25 million, and later $50.  It was later found out they had raised something close to $150 million for its construction, yet the building still wasn't finished for over ten years - raising the likelihood that that was the plan all along, and it was only designed as a cash cow.)


So Putin secretly used Scientology staff and accounting techniques to build the venues for the Sochi Winter Olympics then?
 
2014-03-22 04:30:58 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Being able to prove that real people and places actually existed on earth and "I act like a jerk because I'm human and sometimes humans are complete jerks" versus "I do bad things because volcano aliens possess humans" does kind of tip the credibility scales in favor of pretty much every major religion (including several I haven't discussed--Buddhism, Hinduism, etc--because I'm not well versed enough in them to be able to discuss them intelligently) over Scientology.

Perhaps I'll never get it.  Because "An alien was exiled, lives in a volcano, and populates humanity with his bad aliens that make human beings do bad things and only answering deeply personal questions, starting at age 6 while holding round cylinders hooked up to some sort of an electronic device, giving all your money and possessions away, severing all connections with all those who disagree with the doctrines of the "church", and generally recruiting new followers aggressively while aggressively pursuing to the point of stalking and harassing those who leave the church can make these bad aliens go away and induce a state of rightness of mind" is no more far-fetched to me than "A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."



Well, for starters, Christ was never a zombie.

But that's OK. You can go and tell your masters you derailed a discussion on Fark. Maybe they'll let you out of Sea Org this time.
 
2014-03-22 04:31:34 PM  

Turfshoe: They met face to face?

Was Miscavige standing on a box? Guy is like 5 feet tall.


Why do you think he keeps Tom Cruise around?
 
2014-03-22 04:35:25 PM  

snocone: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder

I see you enjoy raping babies.

Only your mom's

It's a Co$ thing.

I dont own any t-shirts with logos on  them

What I'm saying is that this is a Co$ tactic.  It's something they are trained to do when presented with critics or other opposition -- a ridiculous and extreme non sequitur.  They commonly use the "raping babies" thing.

It seems to work. I was taken aback at being called a baby raper

Mehh, I have been called that since 1970.
baby raper, woman killer, you know, deeply intellectual stuff


Baby raper? At least nobody here is being called something far worse- A Republican Party supporter. Now THAT would be an insult you could not walk away from without laying down a serious hardass smackdown on the name caller!
 
2014-03-22 04:50:17 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: SecretAgentWoman: Meanwhile in Texas, he's fighting tooth and nail not to have to testify in a Scientology harassment case against the wife of Miscavige's former right hand.


That right hand man was the 'enforcer' responsible for more than a few deaths. When two evil people get into an argument, there is no good side.


I'm curious to know what Shorty did to earn all those ribbons...
 
2014-03-22 04:57:17 PM  

stuffy: [www.tampabay.com image 702x498]
Doesn't look evil at all.


It looks like the dark spots on the map is where they have a presence. He has a long way to go for world domination. I wish him luck in that. Eventually he will step on the wrong toes.
 
2014-03-22 06:35:58 PM  
Cars are the same as vans. They are both vehicles with wheels and such.

Why can anyone not tell me the difference? I just can't see it. It is just a matter of degree.
 
2014-03-22 07:15:58 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.


I'm still not sure if you are trolling or not, but I'll take a shot.

Scientology is more concerned with recruiting people who have money and are wiling to pay for their services/enlightenment. They tend to hook people with "personality tests", and from there, they hope the new recruits will bring in friends, family, and so on. Of course, the personality tests will indicate that they have some sort of flaw, and oh-my-goodness we happen to have a course that will help you to overcome that flaw! It's only $xx! The amounts are small at first, but over time, each new book, their "truth machines", their religious doctrines, all require more and more money to progress along their road to salvation. These salvation levels are referred to as Thetans, with the current highest being 7. There are rumors of a level 9, but I have only found reference to that in one or two sources, so I'll stick to 7 for now.

Now, lets pretend that Suzy Smith, who took that free personality test, finds herself another Scilon and they have kids. Well, of course they are going to want to raise Bobby Jr in the church, so they enroll him in Scientology-based schools that teach their own curriculum and helps to insulate the children from outside influences. Then there is the Billion-Year Contract that they push on kids, sometimes as young as 6. But for argument's sake, lets say that Bobby Jr was 12 when he signed, and his parents, devoted Scions that they are, agreed to let him travel around the world as a member of Sea Org, their priesthood. Bobby is then relegated to hard menial labor for little or no pay. Scions have their own language and terminology, and they do well to keep their "crew" insulated from outside negative influences... so by having their own society, hierarchy, lingo, and teaching Scions to buy the newest book or two donate money for another building (Sea Org members get it all for free... except if they leave the church then they are billed outrageous amounts of money for those training materials).

People who were raised in Scientology, when they leave, they often cannot function within society. Permission for everything that most of us would consider a basic right, such as carrying a driver's license, is only granted if you have a legitimate need to operate a vehicle, and oftentimes they take all forms of identification from members and lock it in the office safe. Thus, even if they wanted to leave, Scientology has their paperwork and will require them to take long, deeply personal "sec checks" before they can leave. Sometimes these last for hours, other times, days. Then from there, once they are free, many times their friends and family are forced to cut off contact with them, since they are now an outcast.

While I could explain more, like I said, I am still not sure if you are trolling or not, but this is the reader's digest version of their operations. Whether or not their religious doctrine is right, I cannot say. But I can state that the isolationist and operational ethics match those of many cults, and most people who defect from Scientology often refer to the brainwashing tactics.
 
2014-03-22 07:18:02 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".


Easy. Pope Francis believes that Jesus was the son of God, died and rise again. Ayatollah Khamenei believes that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. The Dalai Lama believes in reincarnation. Does anybody seriously think that Mr Hubbard or Mr Miscavige believe(d) a word of the Xenu stuff?
 
2014-03-22 07:55:15 PM  

Turfshoe: They met face to face?

Was Miscavige standing on a box? Guy is like 5 feet tall.


giggle

He IS a lil'fella ill give you that
 
2014-03-22 10:34:11 PM  

Gothnet: Mock26: So what if jesus and mohammad and Buddha all lived? The idea of their being divine beings is no more far-fetched than that of the idea of Xenu.

This part of the conversation is pretty much irrelevant.

The beliefs are not the issue, it's the actions of the 'church' that are so objectionable. If you're not sure what those actions are, a quick google will inform you.


All "churches" out there have actions that are objectionable.  The church of scientology is no worse than, for example, the catcholic church.  It is just a different shade of objectionable actions.
 
2014-03-22 11:35:01 PM  

badhatharry: Confession is kind of weird. But the Catholic Church does not record your confessions so that they could later be used as blackmail. Like Scientology or the NSA.

/not that Scientology would ever attempt to infiltrate a government agency.


shiat. Thanks for the nightmares.
 
2014-03-22 11:39:27 PM  

LtDarkstar: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Such a positive force in society.

Uh, I really wouldn't classify Scientology as a religion. It's a nutjob CULT hiding under the tax-benefits of a religion. Trust me, real religions wouldn't touch their actions or beliefs with a twenty foot cattle prod.


How you feel about scientology is how some of us feel about all religions.
 
2014-03-22 11:51:04 PM  

orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".

Easy. Pope Francis believes that Jesus was the son of God, died and rise again. Ayatollah Khamenei believes that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. The Dalai Lama believes in reincarnation. Does anybody seriously think that Mr Hubbard or Mr Miscavige believe(d) a word of the Xenu stuff?


So the problem is its too new and people still know it's a lie.

But in a few centuries the leaders of scientology will believe the lie like those you mentioned for Christianity and Islam do.
 
2014-03-23 12:26:48 AM  

Gothnet: No, what's kinda sad you profess not to be able to see any difference yourself, in order to attract attention to yourself on an internet message board.


Internet message board?  You sound bulletin board service savvy!

/i may have dialed a few
 
2014-03-23 01:20:54 AM  
My mother and father were married by the Church of Scientology, my father was a memeber.  When his mental illness was developing, on their advice he avoided medication and treatment.  Let me say that I did not have a happy childhood.

Now as a man, they call me and solicit donations.   Sharing the same name as my father I understand the mistake and asked them to remove my name from their lists.  On the second call, I explained the pain and suffering I endured as a boy partially due to them and asked again to remove my name from their lists and to cease calling me.

Finally, today they called.  Od it was this morning....well I explained again all that i had before.  I also added in the fact that if they call me again that I will find their call center, fly to it's city, go their on it's busiest day and chain it's doors shut.  Then i will burn the building down with all of them inside.   I farking hate these guys.
 
2014-03-23 01:35:02 AM  

bromah: My mother and father were married by the Church of Scientology, my father was a memeber.  When his mental illness was developing, on their advice he avoided medication and treatment.  Let me say that I did not have a happy childhood.

Now as a man, they call me and solicit donations.   Sharing the same name as my father I understand the mistake and asked them to remove my name from their lists.  On the second call, I explained the pain and suffering I endured as a boy partially due to them and asked again to remove my name from their lists and to cease calling me.

Finally, today they called.  Od it was this morning....well I explained again all that i had before.  I also added in the fact that if they call me again that I will find their call center, fly to it's city, go their on it's busiest day and chain it's doors shut.  Then i will burn the building down with all of them inside.   I farking hate these guys.



CSB
 
2014-03-23 01:51:43 AM  
Ya ever get the feeling when you hear "but all religions are bad" in a Scientology thread that it's some sort of twisted Scientology "talking point?" In one way or another, it does put them in the same field as other religious entities.

I mean, as opposed to purely being a money making scam masquerading as a church.
 
2014-03-23 04:11:47 AM  
Scientology is to religion as Fox News is to journalism
 
2014-03-23 07:29:56 AM  

gwenners: Ya ever get the feeling when you hear "but all religions are bad" in a Scientology thread that it's some sort of twisted Scientology "talking point?" In one way or another, it does put them in the same field as other religious entities.

I mean, as opposed to purely being a money making scam masquerading as a church.


Pretty much. That's what scientologists want, to be thought of as just the same as other religions.
 
2014-03-23 08:43:10 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.

It's a bad point. Scientology is a business like Herbalife. Do people make money off Christianity? Well, duh. of course they do. But NO ONE is allowed to teach or make money off Scientology EXCEPT for the Church of Scientology, because they own all the copyrights and trademarks. There is a sort of Luther-ian offshoot of Scientology these days that doesn't recognize Miscavige's church, but they are continually being sued for trying to use L. Ron Hubbard's rather insane lessons without proper legal ability.

It's like if Disney owned the Bible.

A matter of degrees? Of course. So what? It's a ton of degrees away from any free religion.

<shrug>  Okay, there's no good reason then.


He's just a troll with a TF subscription. Quit feeding him. If he doesn't understand the difference then let him live in blissful unawareness.
 
2014-03-23 09:51:43 AM  
Scientology don't pay tax! Real religion!
 
2014-03-23 10:14:16 AM  

Do you know the way to Mordor: snocone: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: Diogenes: BluVeinThrobber: badhatharry: No comment. I have nothing negative to say about Scientology.

You should try a little  harder

I see you enjoy raping babies.

Only your mom's

It's a Co$ thing.

I dont own any t-shirts with logos on  them

What I'm saying is that this is a Co$ tactic.  It's something they are trained to do when presented with critics or other opposition -- a ridiculous and extreme non sequitur.  They commonly use the "raping babies" thing.

It seems to work. I was taken aback at being called a baby raper

Mehh, I have been called that since 1970.
baby raper, woman killer, you know, deeply intellectual stuff

Baby raper? At least nobody here is being called something far worse- A Republican Party supporter. Now THAT would be an insult you could not walk away from without laying down a serious hardass smackdown on the name caller!


I am certainly glad that the VC in the wire did not know that insult.
 
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