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(TampaBay.com (St. Petersburg Tim)   Church of Scientology leader David Miscavige meets with Clearwater leaders to complain about the local newspaper and discuss how best to continue taking over the city   (tampabay.com) divider line 176
    More: Florida, David Miscavige, Church of Scientology, Clearwater, Church of Scientology leader, Scientology, height restrictions  
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5936 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Mar 2014 at 9:26 AM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-22 11:42:15 AM  

teenage mutant ninja rapist: MFK: Relatively Obscure: Not many people look more like some fictional villain than that guy.


How weird is it that he really is a villain?

came in here to post the exact same thing.

If i were a city leader, i would try to keep this scary asshole as far away from my town as possible.

If I was a city leader I would have had my local police goons burn these farks out of town by now.


Quite sure the present supply of goons is spoken for.
 
2014-03-22 11:42:38 AM  

Mirandized: Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.

I always thought  it boiled down to: we are a religion but they are a cult. I think someone upthread did have a point--generally cults try to isolate you so that you are dependent on them.


That makes more sense to me, though there are plenty of "real religions" that do that, too, in varying ways.
 
2014-03-22 11:43:56 AM  

Without Fail: Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

The creator of Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard) said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion" during an Eastern Science Fiction Association meeting on November 11, 1948.


Do you really think that, of all the sects of all the "real religions" in the world, none of them was created equally cynically?
 
2014-03-22 11:44:00 AM  

elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.


Even Christianity was looked upon as a cult in it's early days.
 
2014-03-22 11:44:08 AM  

PawisBetlog: Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.

I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

the issue is not their beliefs, they're no more crazy than magic underwear or statues crying blood tears.  What people take issue with is their methods and practices.  It is here where they zoom so far away from the line of their religious peers that A) they can't even see the line, and B) they've come into and possibly crossed ANOTHER line, that of organized crime operations.


To illustrate this point let me say this. About 10 years ago I walked into a church of scientology to see what all the fuss was about. Bought a copy of dianetics and got about 100 pages into it. I wanted space aliens to self help dime store psychology.

that did not stop them from phoning me for 6 months trying to hussle me into spending lots of money on these dumb ass classes and courses they put on.

I never once had a priest call me at 10 pm demanding me a collection from me.

the last conversation I had with them went like this. They said to me "we just dont think you're very serious about this"
to which I replied " I am not. And I never was"
 
2014-03-22 11:47:42 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Tyrone Slothrop: Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.

Voluntary sex vs rape. It's only a matter of degree.
A tap on the shoulder vs stabbing. It's only a matter of degree,
Lighting a fire to keep warm vs burning a building down. It's only a matter of degree.
 
LOL, no.  All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents.  Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".


Yar matey ya be dealing with a troll. And not a very good one at that. She blows!
 
2014-03-22 11:48:16 AM  

SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.


I haven't read much about the church since maybe last June, so thank you for the link. Miscavige is a midget with a huge temper and acts like an entitled ass. I am hoping that Mrs. Rathbun cleans him out.
 
2014-03-22 11:50:12 AM  

Mirandized: Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.

I always thought  it boiled down to: we are a religion but they are a cult. I think someone upthread did have a point--generally cults try to isolate you so that you are dependent on them.


So when my youth pastor told us all that we were sheep without a shepherd, but that he could *totally* lead us because *reasons,* what exactly was he trying to do there?
 
2014-03-22 11:56:46 AM  
If any of you young 'uns are baffled by all the hubbub (ha) over Scientology. you may want to take a look over here.
 
2014-03-22 11:58:38 AM  
Well let us not overlook a HUGE difference between Scientology and most standard religions:

Scientology requires you to spend many hours in courses that are designed to brainwash and hypnotize you. I used to own one of L. Ron's course original course manuals from his early courses, and that stuff is like LSD.

Scientology is designed to redesign the person's entire way of thinking and even their vocabulary. L. Ron ripped off a lot of early hypnosis and psychology theories, but he did manage to make it work incredibly well.

Sure you could argue all religions involve a bit of brainwashing and whatnot, but L. Ron wrote out detailed instructions. You either make that ashtray levitate or spend another few thousand trying again next time.
 
2014-03-22 11:58:58 AM  

otviiisgrrr8.files.wordpress.comjonathanturley.files.wordpress.comSecretAgentWoman: Meanwhile in Texas, he's fighting tooth and nail not to have to testify in a Scientology harassment case against the wife of Miscavige's former right hand.



That right hand man was the 'enforcer' responsible for more than a few deaths. When two evil people get into an argument, there is no good side.
 
2014-03-22 12:00:59 PM  
Confession is kind of weird. But the Catholic Church does not record your confessions so that they could later be used as blackmail. Like Scientology or the NSA.

/not that Scientology would ever attempt to infiltrate a government agency.
 
2014-03-22 12:08:16 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.


Other religions demand cash for progress through a system of levels ?
Do they promise you special powers if you pay them lots of money ?
Are they based on esoteric nonsense by a convicted scam artist ?
Do they hide their scripture and only let you look at it for payment ? by the way, anyone notices a common theme to all of thi$ ?
Do they also keep folders of potential blackmail material on their followers ?

And i'm not getting into classic cult stuff here like forced slavery, family disconnection, brainwashing etc.
 
2014-03-22 12:10:46 PM  

Without Fail: Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

The creator of Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard) said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion" during an Eastern Science Fiction Association meeting on November 11, 1948.


Boom. Nailed it. And Benevolent Misanthrope is now tagged 'Secret Scientologist'.
 
2014-03-22 12:12:27 PM  

SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.


Never forget these are the people who infiltrated the IRS and made Clinton force the IRS to grant them dispensation as a 'religion' ..

Tom Cruise can kill you with his mind.
 
2014-03-22 12:16:39 PM  
Does Scientology make peoples' lives better? Let's ask Lisa McPherson!
 
2014-03-22 12:16:46 PM  
www.tampabay.com
Doesn't look evil at all.
 
2014-03-22 12:17:52 PM  

SoupJohnB: I knew a guy in high school who was very intelligent.  Acted normally enough, in terms of HS students.  Ran into him a few years later and he told me that he'd joined that particular "church."  I was speaking with the same physical human, but his brain was making wharb-garble come out of his mouth.  Found out a few years later that he'd committed suicide.

/not-so-cool story, bro'


The one guy I knew who got involved had a similar outcome.  Started talking about things being "very animated" and "point a to point b", and eventually started pushing a grocery cart around containing his earthly belongings.  Haven't seen him for a number of years.
 
2014-03-22 12:18:54 PM  
meh, at least the scientologists are up front about the money thing.  they don't wrap it up in nice sounding words like "tithes".   their honesty in scamming people is almost refreshing.
feed the poor, read our book, and do everything that we tell you and think everything that we tell you and you'll live forever in a magic garden with talking bushes and dudes who have bears murder kids who make fun of bald people.
 
2014-03-22 12:21:08 PM  

stuffy: [www.tampabay.com image 702x498]
Doesn't look evil at all.


The orbital interphasic Maser control panel and targeting system are in the next room. This was taken just prior to his overriding the TV band to address the United Nations with his ultimatum.
 
2014-03-22 12:23:27 PM  

stuffy: [www.tampabay.com image 702x498]
Doesn't look evil at all.


What?
They cut the legs off of a perfectly good desk?
 
2014-03-22 12:23:34 PM  

Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.


He has never really been known to be that bright or intellectually honest on Fark.
 
2014-03-22 12:30:11 PM  

The_Hound: Without Fail: Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

The creator of Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard) said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion" during an Eastern Science Fiction Association meeting on November 11, 1948.

Boom. Nailed it. And Benevolent Misanthrope is now tagged 'Secret Scientologist'.


Now that's comedy.
 
2014-03-22 12:41:54 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.


EVERYTHING is only just a matter of degrees.  You are being obtuse because you want to be the anti-religious cool guy leaning against the side of the school with the pack of smokes rolled up in your sleeve. If you can't see the difference between the two, then I hope you dont have a job that requires critical thinking or sharp objects.
 
2014-03-22 12:47:49 PM  

Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

Cause a Bible is free and there are even people who put them in hotel rooms. If you want to know what's in Scientology, pull out your wallet.

That's a rather large difference to me.


/you sound small walleted :)
 
2014-03-22 12:52:45 PM  

The Billdozer: Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.

EVERYTHING is only just a matter of degrees.  You are being obtuse because you want to be the anti-religious cool guy leaning against the side of the school with the pack of smokes rolled up in your sleeve. If you can't see the difference between the two, then I hope you dont have a job that requires critical thinking or sharp objects.


And we're now back to insults.  No one seems to think about this.  Kind of sad, really.
 
2014-03-22 12:56:17 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: And we're now back to insults. No one seems to think about this. Kind of sad, really.


No, what's kinda sad you profess not to be able to see any difference yourself, in order to attract attention to yourself on an internet message board.
 
2014-03-22 12:57:08 PM  

Confabulat: You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.


Being a mystery cult doesn't mean it's not a religion.  That's how Catholicism worked for about 1000 years when they were intentionally and explicitly suppressing literacy to avoid having anyone but priests read the scripture, and it's still how a solid fraction of protestant denominations and a good chunk of Buddhist and Hindu sects work, meaning the behavior occurs in every major religion at times except Islam.

It is the reason we're significantly less hesitant to just arrest the biatches for their bullshiat, though, yes.
 
2014-03-22 01:04:33 PM  

FnkyTwn: Scientology is the North Korea of religions.


This.
 
2014-03-22 01:05:40 PM  

stuffy: [www.tampabay.com image 702x498]
Doesn't look evil at all.


i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-03-22 01:06:18 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.

I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?


L Ron Hubbard is on record saying to Robert Heinlein that he wanted to create a fake religion for profit.
 
2014-03-22 01:09:26 PM  

indy_kid: PC LOAD LETTER: "Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"

Whenever I see that name, I always read it as "Miscarriage"!


img.fark.net
 
2014-03-22 01:10:39 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: LOL, no. All of these things are comparisons of acts which have entirely different motivations and intents. Scientology does not differ in motivation or intent from "real religions".

False.

The motivations of most traditional religions are (gen) well meaning but misguided. The motivations of scientology are cynical and exploitative. The beliefs themselves are irrelevant, the actions of the 'church' are the only relevant part.

But you know this, and have just chosen to troll, so good luck to you.

Wow, are you naïve.

Scientology - just like every other religion - is indeed cynically exploitative.  Its adherents - just like every other religion - are well-meaning but misguided.

Man, even atheists become religion apologists when confronted with the question, "where is the line between religion and cult?".  Very interesting.  Insults, "because I said so", ignoring similarities, false comparisons... but no one willing to really think about this and decide where the line is or even if it exists.

I'm still debating the question myself, by the way.  Which is why I always ask the question in these "IT'S A CULT!" threads, and why I keep dismissing spurious arguments.


As a sociological query the matter is far from settled. Though it is an interesting aspect of the sociology of religion.

If you want to read about the topic here are some good people to start with:

Max Weber

Rodney Stark

Paul Schnabel (He applies Stark's cult typology to the Scientology movement as a whole.)

Though the whole argument of cult vs. religion can be boiled down to this straight forward and completely useful pic:

upload.wikimedia.org

Which is from here.
 
2014-03-22 01:11:37 PM  

Gothnet: Benevolent Misanthrope: And we're now back to insults. No one seems to think about this. Kind of sad, really.

No, what's kinda sad you profess not to be able to see any difference yourself, in order to attract attention to yourself on an internet message board.


Honestly - once we strip away the excuses, at the heart of it, I don't.  Where is the line?  I don't know.  I know that there's a continuum, I know that people very clearly think there's a difference between religion and cult, but I can't for the life of me quantify the differences beyond a few oddities that are applicable to both in several cases anyway.  For example:

Cults have a single leader to whom people are loyal.  So did the Catholic Church, though the pope is not nearly so influential now as he was in the Middle Ages.  And religious orders (I am in a unique position to understand this) absolutely admit internally that they are cultish, and so what.

Cults make you dependent on them.  But I grew up in a church that required money and separating ourselves from "the world", not as obviously as the Moonies, but I couldn't socialize outside our church as a child, for example, because it was our teaching.  My single parent did not attend the church, but I did (grandparents) - and the church worked hard to drive a wedge between myself and my caregiver.

I look at sites that say what the differences are - but I see examples of those "cult" behaviors in religions every day.  It's as if people are so attached to the idea of "Religion = Good" that they can't take an honest look at it.  And so when I try to - even among such a contentious group as Farkers, who shouldn't be so interested in the status quo - I get insults, circular logic, presentation of opinion as fact... but no further in understanding the issue.

I should give it up.  But I'd really like to know.
 
2014-03-22 01:25:24 PM  
Some people have faces that just beg to be punched. This guy is one of them.

img.fark.net
 
2014-03-22 01:43:05 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: "Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"


Yes, and look at the pic in the article. He even looks like a cartoon villain.
 
2014-03-22 01:46:58 PM  

farkinglizardking: Benevolent Misanthrope: starsrift: Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.

They don't even make sense to people who believe in those other religions.

I'm sure Catholic beliefs make no sense to Scientologists, either.

Anyone want to tell me how Scientology's beliefs are less credible than other religions'?

L Ron Hubbard is on record saying to Robert Heinlein that he wanted to create a fake religion for profit.


It started as a joke and side bet between novelists.
This is back in snail mail and fanzine days, hard to really cite now.
You kinda had to be there.
 
2014-03-22 01:56:27 PM  
Are they planning on building another big-ass building in downtown Clearwater?

I do like the Tampa Bay Times though. They're run by a journalism school and the quality of the stories in the paper would indicate such.

If the Scientologists are upset at them. They mist be doing their job.
 
2014-03-22 02:02:11 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Cults have a single leader to whom people are loyal. So did the Catholic Church, though the pope is not nearly so influential now as he was in the Middle Ages.


That's not really an accurate comparison. Cults tend to form around a single charismatic leader - one specific person (Elron, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, etc.).  Catholics look to the pope for leadership, but they're respecting the position, not one man in particular.

Of course, I suppose one could extend it out further and refer to Christianity, Islam, and perhaps Buddhism as "cults" by that definition.  Judaism and Hinduism wouldn't really qualify, though.
 
2014-03-22 02:05:54 PM  

cgremlin: Benevolent Misanthrope: Cults have a single leader to whom people are loyal. So did the Catholic Church, though the pope is not nearly so influential now as he was in the Middle Ages.

That's not really an accurate comparison. Cults tend to form around a single charismatic leader - one specific person (Elron, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, etc.).  Catholics look to the pope for leadership, but they're respecting the position, not one man in particular.

Of course, I suppose one could extend it out further and refer to Christianity, Islam, and perhaps Buddhism as "cults" by that definition.  Judaism and Hinduism wouldn't really qualify, though.


Every band needs a FRONT MAN.
 
2014-03-22 02:06:00 PM  
After months of discord between his church and the city, Church of Scientology leader David Miscavige reached out this week to Clearwater leaders, arranging a sit-down in the church's Fort Harrison Hotel to iron out their differences.

The church owns the hotel.  I just thought this needed to be emphasized.
 
2014-03-22 02:07:13 PM  

psychicdeath99: Some people have faces that just beg to be punched. This guy is one of them.

[img.fark.net image 702x498]


Is that a tiny kitten waving from that chair?
 
2014-03-22 02:12:05 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Billdozer: Benevolent Misanthrope: Confabulat: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lots of things are free.  I don't think being in a hotel room is a great indicator of the credibility of anything.  And are you really going to pretend that other churches don't ask for money?

Anyone else?

By the way, this is so childish to have to explain to an adult, but I guess you are all "all religions are dopey and I am smart and I can't tell the difference from one to the other because I'm too smart to understand how to do that," but it's not WHAT Scientology believes that makes them a cult.

It's the HOW. And the WAY.

You can grab that Gideons' Bible from a hotel room and go walk off to the woods with it and be the best Christian ever.

You cannot do that with Scientology. It is more like a college curriculum, and those credit hours are EXPENSIVE.

But you can't be a good Catholic that way.  Are you telling me Catholicism isn't a religion?

Get over your snarky little self.  I'm making a point, which is that it's really only a matter of degrees.  Enough people start to believe Scientology, it will be socially acceptable and be thought of as a religion instead of a cult.

EVERYTHING is only just a matter of degrees.  You are being obtuse because you want to be the anti-religious cool guy leaning against the side of the school with the pack of smokes rolled up in your sleeve. If you can't see the difference between the two, then I hope you dont have a job that requires critical thinking or sharp objects.

And we're now back to insults.  No one seems to think about this.  Kind of sad, really.



You're the only one here who's not thinking dude. Your debate style was probably awesome in 6th grade, but on a forum, with other people, you're falling short. 3 pages of people telling you what sets Scientology apart from other religions so far, and you're still not getting it, AND you seem unable to read anything else on the internet about to subject.

I'm just going to assume you're just trolling at this point.

1/10
 
2014-03-22 02:14:33 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.


From a humanitarian point of view, most religions are a socializing influence; they teach love, tolerance, forgiveness, working together, right from wrong, and so on (though most don't follow those teachings well). Scientology on the other hand is distinctly anti-social; get what you can, take down those that oppose you in any way you can get away with, hoard knowledge and don't share unless you get something for it, ties should be broken if your beliefs differ, anyone not with us is an enemy, and so on. I'm an atheist, but I can clearly see the disconnect between what should be considered a religion and what should be considered a cult. Religions go hand in hand with society. Cults separate, fight, and try to subsume or substitute themselves for society.
 
2014-03-22 02:15:09 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.


There's actual historical evidence for the existence of some people mentioned in Judaism, Chrisitanity, and Islam. Whether one ascribes to those beliefs or not is another matter--there is some historical evidence that some people and all nations and cultures (Egypt & the Pharoahs, Babylon  & Nebuchadnezzar, Persia & Xerxes, Greece, Rome & Herod, the Caesars, Muhammad, Syria...to name a few) mentioned by name in the books that those religions espouse as holy actually did exist on earth at one time. One does not have to agree with the spiritualism or dogma associated with any of those religions to acknowledge the historical and archaeological evidence of the existence of several of those people and places as being real people who lived and real places that existed (or in some cases, still exist). One may choose to associate with whom they will, one may choose to give money or not (and the max that is asked of Christians by GOD, not by man, is 10%), one may choose to disagree with the doctrines taught--and still remain a part of the church with no hard feelings, according to what the holy text says (note: this does not apply to how men teach or interpret the text; this only applies to what the text actually says). Further, in Christianity, the text says that Christians are only to hold other Christians accountable for "sin," that we have no right to hold non-Christians accountable to live a life which they have not agreed to live (yeah, so many Christians gloss that one over). You'll note that most Jewish practitioners don't act like Christians--even Messianic Jews. Ask yourself why that is. Christians who actually follow the text of the bible are not to aggressively fight anyone who speaks negatively of them, or of their beliefs.

Scientology, if I understand it correctly, posits that an alien was exiled, lives in a volcano, and populates humanity with his bad aliens that make human beings do bad things and only answering deeply personal questions, starting at age 6 while holding round cylinders hooked up to some sort of an electronic device, giving all your money and possessions away, severing all connections with all those who disagree with the doctrines of the "church", and generally recruiting new followers aggressively while aggressively pursuing to the point of stalking and harassing those who leave the church can make these bad aliens go away and induce a state of rightness of mind. Aggressively fighting/arguing with anyone who says anything negative at all about their organization or disagrees with the organization's stance "proves" this rightness of mind. Tucking people away in forced labor, akin to concentration camp like conditions, by all accounts, for having "sinned" against the organization is meant to produce rightness of mind and purge one of the aliens inhabiting the mind and body, forcing one to commit terrible acts against the organization that they wouldn't commit if not for the volcano aliens inhabiting them.

That's not to say that all Christians--even myself, because I can be a royal jackass at times--live up to what we are supposed to be, or that all Jews or Muslims do, either. Nor is it to say that all Scientologists are like Tom Cruise or David Miscavige (I know a couple who are really nice people and who you wouldn't know were Scientologists until they told you because they actually seem very sane and well-balanced, very normal). But you asked about credibility. Being able to prove that real people and places actually existed on earth and "I act like a jerk because I'm human and sometimes humans are complete jerks" versus "I do bad things because volcano aliens possess humans" does kind of tip the credibility scales in favor of pretty much every major religion (including several I haven't discussed--Buddhism, Hinduism, etc--because I'm not well versed enough in them to be able to discuss them intelligently) over Scientology.
 
2014-03-22 02:26:59 PM  

Aigoo: :words:


That's all well and good dude, but who wrote the history books? Why does anything have to be true? It still doesn't explain it enough for him. You're gonna have put him through a course in critical thinking first, then eventually baby-step him into it.
 
2014-03-22 02:28:51 PM  
Being able to prove that real people and places actually existed on earth and "I act like a jerk because I'm human and sometimes humans are complete jerks" versus "I do bad things because volcano aliens possess humans" does kind of tip the credibility scales in favor of pretty much every major religion (including several I haven't discussed--Buddhism, Hinduism, etc--because I'm not well versed enough in them to be able to discuss them intelligently) over Scientology.

Perhaps I'll never get it.  Because "An alien was exiled, lives in a volcano, and populates humanity with his bad aliens that make human beings do bad things and only answering deeply personal questions, starting at age 6 while holding round cylinders hooked up to some sort of an electronic device, giving all your money and possessions away, severing all connections with all those who disagree with the doctrines of the "church", and generally recruiting new followers aggressively while aggressively pursuing to the point of stalking and harassing those who leave the church can make these bad aliens go away and induce a state of rightness of mind" is no more far-fetched to me than "A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."
 
2014-03-22 02:46:48 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: elvisaintdead: Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Dammit...link.

Religion.  Crazy-ass cult. Such a positive force in society.

fify.
I'm no god-squadder by any means, but $cientology is a religion as much as a rancid hot dog is a hot off the grill T-bone steak with all the fixins.

Explain for me, please, how Scientology's beliefs are any less credible than other religions'.


With older religions, the origins are long enough in the past that you can give them a little benefit of the doubt that maybe some amazing miracles really happened back at the dawn of history, like angels and burning bushes, or maybe it was something weird that ancient peoples misinterpreted like alien visitation or something like that. With Scientology and Mormonism, we KNOW the founders were scam artists making shiat up, so we can dismiss both religions out of hand much easier than more established religions.
 
2014-03-22 02:47:32 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Being able to prove that real people and places actually existed on earth and "I act like a jerk because I'm human and sometimes humans are complete jerks" versus "I do bad things because volcano aliens possess humans" does kind of tip the credibility scales in favor of pretty much every major religion (including several I haven't discussed--Buddhism, Hinduism, etc--because I'm not well versed enough in them to be able to discuss them intelligently) over Scientology.

Perhaps I'll never get it.  Because "An alien was exiled, lives in a volcano, and populates humanity with his bad aliens that make human beings do bad things and only answering deeply personal questions, starting at age 6 while holding round cylinders hooked up to some sort of an electronic device, giving all your money and possessions away, severing all connections with all those who disagree with the doctrines of the "church", and generally recruiting new followers aggressively while aggressively pursuing to the point of stalking and harassing those who leave the church can make these bad aliens go away and induce a state of rightness of mind" is no more far-fetched to me than "A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."


Dude I stopped believing in God before I stopped believing in Santa Claus. Again, it's not about the belief, it's about the structure built around that belief.
 
2014-03-22 03:41:39 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: "Miscavige" is practically a fictional evil name, leveraging "mis" as in "misanthropy"


"I shall name you...Darth Miscavige."

img3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
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