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(Outside Online)   Idaho to 4,000 ravens: Nevermore   (outsideonline.com) divider line 53
    More: Asinine, Idaho, cull, habitat destruction, Endangered Species Act  
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4557 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Mar 2014 at 2:39 AM (22 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-22 12:29:58 AM
"conduct lethal control actions"

Call it what it is: MURDER!
 
2014-03-22 12:45:25 AM
I'd like to know how they plan to do that. Killing very smart birds is not an easy thing to do. They'll learn quickly what you're doing to kill them, and avoid it.
 
2014-03-22 02:43:23 AM
Dark wings; dark words.
 
2014-03-22 02:43:59 AM

fusillade762: "conduct lethal control actions" Call it what it is: MURDER!


Not sure if serious.  Are you anti hunting or something?
 
2014-03-22 02:46:21 AM
ambitstudios.com
Inconsolable.
 
2014-03-22 02:46:25 AM
ts2.mm.bing.net
 
2014-03-22 02:46:31 AM
Nice chesticles!
 
2014-03-22 02:47:34 AM
A murder of crows.
 
2014-03-22 02:51:34 AM

dobro: A murder of crows.


that's what I was thinking, but Farkers run the full spectrum of opinions on this all issues.
 
2014-03-22 03:03:28 AM
Idaho wildlife officials cite human-caused habitat destruction and fragmentation as the greatest threats to the sage-grouse, with predation ranking 12 among 19 factors that contribute to the birds' decline.

People in Idaho just need to kill something so they don't go insane. Only reason they'd bother messing with the 12th contributing factor and ignore the first 11.
 
2014-03-22 03:26:47 AM
I hope they aren't tasking some animal control officer with shooting them. Ravens are going to make that poor saps life hell.

shiatty move Idaho, those ravens are smarter than most of you.
 
2014-03-22 03:29:40 AM
Yeah, f*ck those stupid sage-grouse. Ravens are way cooler and I say let 'em feed on eggs and chicks all they want. People need to stop trying to simultaneously destroy and police nature.
 
2014-03-22 03:33:44 AM

Medic Zero: I hope they aren't tasking some animal control officer with shooting them. Ravens are going to make that poor saps life hell.

shiatty move Idaho, those ravens are smarter than most of you.


The landfill in Anchorage has been battling them forever.

They use non-lethal harassment instead of killing them, but it just proves their intelligence -- The bird control guy can switch clothes, switch trucks... he's tried everything. The ravens always figure out he's coming and just avoid him before he ever gets in range, and know when he's gone to come back and resume the buffet.

The guy who deals with ravens there should write a book about it when he's done. He's an employee of the USDA, and their policy says he's not allowed to talk about the specifics of his daily interactions with them.
 
2014-03-22 03:35:03 AM
I have the answer.

imageshack.com
 
2014-03-22 03:35:03 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: I'd like to know how they plan to do that. Killing very smart birds is not an easy thing to do. They'll learn quickly what you're doing to kill them, and avoid it.


That, or consider it an act of war.

/Don't mess with corvids
//They remember
 
2014-03-22 03:39:23 AM

knbwhite: dobro: A murder of crows.

that's what I was thinking, but Farkers run the full spectrum of opinions on this all issues.


and you were ready to get 'em, weren't you?
 
2014-03-22 03:42:16 AM
The All-Father's gonna be piiiiiiised....
 
2014-03-22 03:48:18 AM
I would totally be okay with crows/ravens overtaking the greater avian population.

I think it'd be a pretty badass world if songbirds and seagulls were replaced with clever crows.
 
2014-03-22 03:50:40 AM
Killing a disgusting scavenger bird to save a stupid game bird.

I'm seeing zero win in either scenario here, really.

Oh, and in re this:

LavenderWolf: I would totally be okay with crows/ravens overtaking the greater avian population.

I think it'd be a pretty badass world if songbirds and seagulls were replaced with clever crows.


No, it really wouldn't. Songbirds mostly eat insects; crows mostly don't. I don't know about you, but I'm not anxious to be overrun with flies and mosquitoes any time soon, thanks.
 
2014-03-22 03:56:11 AM

Gyrfalcon: Killing a disgusting scavenger bird to save a stupid game bird.

I'm seeing zero win in either scenario here, really.

Oh, and in re this: LavenderWolf: I would totally be okay with crows/ravens overtaking the greater avian population.

I think it'd be a pretty badass world if songbirds and seagulls were replaced with clever crows.

No, it really wouldn't. Songbirds mostly eat insects; crows mostly don't. I don't know about you, but I'm not anxious to be overrun with flies and mosquitoes any time soon, thanks.


Sorry, it would have been better to include that in this world the crows evolve to fill the niches they displace.

/It's my fantasy, damnit.
 
2014-03-22 04:08:26 AM

LavenderWolf: Gyrfalcon: Killing a disgusting scavenger bird to save a stupid game bird.

I'm seeing zero win in either scenario here, really.

Oh, and in re this: LavenderWolf: I would totally be okay with crows/ravens overtaking the greater avian population.

I think it'd be a pretty badass world if songbirds and seagulls were replaced with clever crows.

No, it really wouldn't. Songbirds mostly eat insects; crows mostly don't. I don't know about you, but I'm not anxious to be overrun with flies and mosquitoes any time soon, thanks.

Sorry, it would have been better to include that in this world the crows evolve to fill the niches they displace.

/It's my fantasy, damnit.


OK, that's fine. I can handle smart fly-eating crows.
 
2014-03-22 04:08:38 AM

Canton: /Don't mess with corvids
//They remember


Well, not all of them are smart -- Jays and magpies are crafty, maybe, but not like crows and ravens.

However, I've spent a lot of time with both -- Ravens throughout Alaska, and crows in Oregon -- and there's no comparison between the two. Ravens are much, much smarter.
 
2014-03-22 04:08:48 AM

Gyrfalcon: Killing a disgusting scavenger bird to save a stupid game bird.

I'm seeing zero win in either scenario here, really.


I usually agree with you on stuff but in this case not so much. Ravens are scary smart; frankly I feel like we need to join forces with them somehow. Crows aren't quite as intelligent but they're still up there. Plus without scavengers we'd be subject to far more time of carcasses rotting, boating, and asploding on the side of the road. Erm... "One dead raccoon in a campground, bloated to rival a beach ball", and fur standing straight up... No thanks.
 
2014-03-22 04:13:35 AM

AgentPothead: Idaho wildlife officials cite human-caused habitat destruction and fragmentation as the greatest threats to the sage-grouse, with predation ranking 12 among 19 factors that contribute to the birds' decline.

People in Idaho just need to kill something so they don't go insane. Only reason they'd bother messing with the 12th contributing factor and ignore the first 11.


This is probably the only factor that doesn't effect campaign contributers. Stopping habitat destruction would also stop developers from donating to reelection efforts. This raven cull gives the impression that the state is doing "something".

Species protection is mostly a joke without habitat protection. In San fransisco it is illegal to move the endangered sf gartersnake off the road to stop cars from running it over, but perfectly fine to chop them up with lawn mowers if you are the city and want to put in a golf course. Politicians play golf. Same thing goes for many other threatened species, this was just one that came to mind.
 
2014-03-22 04:32:27 AM

AmbassadorBooze: AgentPothead: Idaho wildlife officials cite human-caused habitat destruction and fragmentation as the greatest threats to the sage-grouse, with predation ranking 12 among 19 factors that contribute to the birds' decline.

People in Idaho just need to kill something so they don't go insane. Only reason they'd bother messing with the 12th contributing factor and ignore the first 11.

This is probably the only factor that doesn't effect campaign contributers. Stopping habitat destruction would also stop developers from donating to reelection efforts. This raven cull gives the impression that the state is doing "something".

Species protection is mostly a joke without habitat protection. In San fransisco it is illegal to move the endangered sf gartersnake off the road to stop cars from running it over, but perfectly fine to chop them up with lawn mowers if you are the city and want to put in a golf course. Politicians play golf. Same thing goes for many other threatened species, this was just one that came to mind.


I am a consultant that deals with ESA compliance. First, at least one city in the bay area has been successfully sued for destroying occupied habitat of SF gartersnake for a golf course. Second, while you might technically be braking the law USFWS has made it clear that the ESA is not there to kill the species and if an individual protected under the law is in eminent danger, normally a roadway is the specific example, you get that animal out of the road.
 
2014-03-22 04:35:11 AM
Not a day goes by that I do not see at least two of the crow sisters outside my window cracking seeds against the rocks.
Last autumn, a few hundred met on the mall lot after the circus left to clean up.
After about ten minutes a truck drove through the murder with horn blaring scattering the girls north.

/off to see what to call a group of ravens
 
2014-03-22 04:48:26 AM
An unkindness of ravens

/conspiracy
 
2014-03-22 04:55:23 AM

Torion!: Not a day goes by that I do not see at least two of the crow sisters outside my window cracking seeds against the rocks.
Last autumn, a few hundred met on the mall lot after the circus left to clean up.
After about ten minutes a truck drove through the murder with horn blaring scattering the girls north.

/off to see what to call a group of ravens


We have three walnut trees in the neighborhood. Each fall, the crows gorge themselves on them.

They've learned if they fly a block away, there's a driveway that crosses the sidewalk under a powerline, and that powerline is *just* the right height to drop and crack the walnuts without shattering them. They use this strategy on lazy days.

Last fall, we had a wind storm that knocked hundreds and hundreds of walnuts off the tree in one night. I watched a dozen or so of them rolling the nuts (still in the apple) out into the street where cars would run over them to both break them and remove the apple. After each car passed, they'd vie for position in the road -- there wasn't enough room for them all to eat. The ones that weren't eating would roll until the next car passed, then they'd all vie for position again. The losers would roll, the winners would eat. This went on for hours.
 
2014-03-22 05:08:11 AM

Thorny: AmbassadorBooze: AgentPothead: Idaho wildlife officials cite human-caused habitat destruction and fragmentation as the greatest threats to the sage-grouse, with predation ranking 12 among 19 factors that contribute to the birds' decline.

People in Idaho just need to kill something so they don't go insane. Only reason they'd bother messing with the 12th contributing factor and ignore the first 11.

This is probably the only factor that doesn't effect campaign contributers. Stopping habitat destruction would also stop developers from donating to reelection efforts. This raven cull gives the impression that the state is doing "something".

Species protection is mostly a joke without habitat protection. In San fransisco it is illegal to move the endangered sf gartersnake off the road to stop cars from running it over, but perfectly fine to chop them up with lawn mowers if you are the city and want to put in a golf course. Politicians play golf. Same thing goes for many other threatened species, this was just one that came to mind.

I am a consultant that deals with ESA compliance. First, at least one city in the bay area has been successfully sued for destroying occupied habitat of SF gartersnake for a golf course. Second, while you might technically be braking the law USFWS has made it clear that the ESA is not there to kill the species and if an individual protected under the law is in eminent danger, normally a roadway is the specific example, you get that animal out of the road.


You are correct. I was just trying to keep my reply short-ish. Sure the golf course is being sued. I think the judge was saying the couse had to pay $10k per estimated snake they mowed. But that isn't really habitat protection. Maybe my example was slightly off, but my point remains. Habitat protection would be best for the birds (and snake) but that isn't going to work (for whatever political reason). By culling the ravens (and paying the mowing fine) the government is doing "something".

I'm not a militant treehugger, but if the point is to protect species do that. Or if the point is to pretend to do something it would be more cost effective to just do nothing. And golf courses are useless.

Its late and I shouldn't be farking anyways, so don't take this as me attacking you. We probably are more or less on the same side of this topic. Thanks for replying.
 
2014-03-22 06:10:10 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Canton: /Don't mess with corvids
//They remember

Well, not all of them are smart -- Jays and magpies are crafty, maybe, but not like crows and ravens.

However, I've spent a lot of time with both -- Ravens throughout Alaska, and crows in Oregon -- and there's no comparison between the two. Ravens are much, much smarter.


I'm starting to think the jays may be nearly as smart as crows. The Stellar Jays at our new place seem to have figured out what time I get home from work in the morning and are waiting for me on that side of the house, just a few days after I started feeding them peanuts. I have to wonder if jays can recognize faces as well.
 
2014-03-22 06:48:51 AM
"Idaho wildlife officials cite human-caused habitat destruction and fragmentation as the greatest threats to the sage-grouse, with predation ranking 12 among 19 factors that contribute to the birds' decline."

Hmm, so... cull the humans?

img4.wikia.nocookie.net

YES!
 
2014-03-22 07:07:11 AM

knbwhite: Not sure if serious. Are you anti hunting or something?


I eat meat, and I have no problem calling it what it is.  Some cow was murdered for my hamburger.  It's ok, it's what we do.
 
2014-03-22 08:17:56 AM
First: Ravens are not crows.

Second: Fark the grouse AND the ravens. We were on vacation in West Yellowstone, and a raven hopped up on the outdoor table and squawked at us throughout the meal. We couldn't shoo it away, and refused to feed it.

Third: Ravens are NOT crows. I guess all black birds look alike to you...

thatsracist.jpg
 
2014-03-22 08:18:59 AM
Unavailable for comment:
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-03-22 08:34:36 AM

zackthebass: Unavailable for comment:
[1.bp.blogspot.com image 298x300]


Rule #1: Don't piss off Ray.
Rule #2: See rule 1
Rule #3: Go Ravens!
 
2014-03-22 08:53:03 AM

Gyrfalcon: Killing a disgusting scavenger bird to save a stupid game bird.

I'm seeing zero win in either scenario here, really.

Oh, and in re this: LavenderWolf: I would totally be okay with crows/ravens overtaking the greater avian population.

I think it'd be a pretty badass world if songbirds and seagulls were replaced with clever crows.

No, it really wouldn't. Songbirds mostly eat insects; crows mostly don't. I don't know about you, but I'm not anxious to be overrun with flies and mosquitoes any time soon, thanks.


they are ot killing a scavanger bird to protect a game bird, they are protecting the game bird so that it doesnt become threatened which would cause a bunch of restrictions to fall down on multple industries and buisnesses.
 
2014-03-22 09:09:13 AM
or... should I say, they are not protecting the grouse from the ravens, they are protecting the land owners from the grouse..
 
2014-03-22 09:18:30 AM
Poe inconsolable. Nevermore
 
2014-03-22 09:48:37 AM

Torion!: Not a day goes by that I do not see at least two of the crow sisters outside my window cracking seeds against the rocks.
Last autumn, a few hundred met on the mall lot after the circus left to clean up.
After about ten minutes a truck drove through the murder with horn blaring scattering the girls north.

/off to see what to call a group of ravens


A single Raven is a "murderer", a group is called a "team".
 
2014-03-22 10:41:55 AM
Are we humans making the ravens eat the other bird eggs and chicks?  Have we created a situation (through habitat destruction, pesticide, etc.) that puts the sage grouse at a serious disadvantage?  If so, then we should fix the problem.  If not then the ravens are just being ravens and this is mother nature's way of saying, "Sucks to be a sage grouse in this part of the world" and we need to mind our own fycking business.
 
2014-03-22 10:49:59 AM

Thorny: occupied habitat of SF gartersnake


Good thing they didn't go for the the SF trousersnake.  They are a slippery bunch.
 
2014-03-22 11:12:37 AM

IronTom: Thorny: occupied habitat of SF gartersnake

Good thing they didn't go for the the SF trousersnake.  They are a slippery bunch.


It's all the KY.
 
2014-03-22 12:09:59 PM
http://www.gravsports-ice.com/icethreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat& N umber=2027&page=1  yes, they are smart and have a sense of humor.....

Had one opening peoples packs and stealing lunches while I was treeplanting near Nelson. Initially almost started a fight or two with people saying,"No f-ing way a bird can open a pack!" The foreman got some video evidence and yes ravens can open and close zippers...
 
2014-03-22 12:20:43 PM
This is GD awful. Corvids are the smartest bids by far, and ... never mind, this convinces me Idaho really is controlled by the Mormon Church
 
2014-03-22 12:36:57 PM
ts3.mm.bing.net
 
2014-03-22 12:42:34 PM

knbwhite: fusillade762: "conduct lethal control actions" Call it what it is: MURDER!

Not sure if serious.  Are you anti hunting or something?


Not sure if serious. Are you unaware of what a group of crows is called or something?
 
2014-03-22 02:53:38 PM

Medic Zero: I hope they aren't tasking some animal control officer with shooting them. Ravens are going to make that poor saps life hell.

shiatty move Idaho, those ravens are smarter than most of you.


This
Ravens are very bright, vindictive and usually pretty bored. They will really get into finding ways to torment the people sent to kill them.

/Ravens: Our #1 defense against the zombie apocalypse.
 
2014-03-22 03:17:30 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: I'd like to know how they plan to do that. Killing very smart birds is not an easy thing to do. They'll learn quickly what you're doing to kill them, and avoid it.


we have been doing a cull at my friends house. He lives near the dump and there are far too many ravens. We can shoot 5 per person per year... none of us have managed to shoot more than one or two. The birds know when you have a gun and they know how far birdshot reaches.. they will sit 60 yards out and squawk at us.  We managed to switch to a .223 and caught a couple that way, but now they taunt us from tree tops since we cant responsibly shoot a single projectile at the tops of trees.  smart little buggers.
 
2014-03-22 04:41:42 PM

Mock26: Are we humans making the ravens eat the other bird eggs and chicks?  Have we created a situation (through habitat destruction, pesticide, etc.) that puts the sage grouse at a serious disadvantage?  If so, then we should fix the problem.  If not then the ravens are just being ravens and this is mother nature's way of saying, "Sucks to be a sage grouse in this part of the world" and we need to mind our own fycking business.


Likely the former. Modern civilization heavily subsidizes raven food (garbage) and nesting sites (transmission lines). So likely the grouse is dealing with far more ravens then they have historically.
 
2014-03-22 07:11:58 PM

burdock: knbwhite: fusillade762: "conduct lethal control actions" Call it what it is: MURDER!

Not sure if serious.  Are you anti hunting or something?

Not sure if serious. Are you unaware of what a group of crows is called or something?


Do you know how I know you didn't read the thread?
 
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