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(National Journal)   National Geographic, Wikipedia surrender Crimea to Russia   (nationaljournal.com) divider line 68
    More: Obvious, Wikipedians, Crimean, Russia, Russians, Internet forum, English Wikipedia  
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5014 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Mar 2014 at 7:27 PM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-19 05:50:55 PM  
I think it should be polka-dotted to represent a disputed status that isn't the same as other annexations for subtle reasons that shall be discussed below.
 
2014-03-19 06:29:11 PM  
Putin did this because he doesn't respect Wikipedia.  If the editors had slapped a "Citation Needed" on Russia like Reagan did, Putin would have retreated.
 
2014-03-19 06:29:54 PM  

Tr0mBoNe: I think it should be polka-dotted to represent a disputed status that isn't the same as other annexations for subtle reasons that shall be discussed below.


Don't they do that for "the West Bank?" Why the double standard?
 
2014-03-19 06:46:18 PM  
National Geographic, Wikipedia surrender Crimea to Russia

WADR, they were actually just behind Obama and the Farklibs in doing this.
 
2014-03-19 06:53:08 PM  

IamKaiserSoze!!!: National Geographic, Wikipedia surrender Crimea to Russia

WADR, they were actually just behind Obama and the Farklibs in doing this.


Hey man, I was giving Crimea to Russia before it was cool.
 
2014-03-19 07:00:58 PM  

fusillade762: IamKaiserSoze!!!: National Geographic, Wikipedia surrender Crimea to Russia

WADR, they were actually just behind Obama and the Farklibs in doing this.

Hey man, I was giving Crimea to Russia before it was cool.


Pffffffft!

I never took them away
 
2014-03-19 07:19:08 PM  
I just checked Wikipedia, and the map of Ukraine still includes Crimea.
 
2014-03-19 07:29:32 PM  
So now the NSA can claim Wikipedia and National Geographic are traitors and part of the Rebel Alliance.
 
2014-03-19 07:30:54 PM  
I know we shouldn't be making comparisons, but I seem to remember another incident in history where they merely wanted to reunite a people who spoke the same language but were in territory that shifted under treaty. And I'm not talking about the French reunion of Quebec.
 
2014-03-19 07:32:47 PM  
Save us, Turkey-wan Kenobi, you're our only hope.
 
2014-03-19 07:33:10 PM  

DamnYankees: I just checked Wikipedia, and the map of Ukraine still includes Crimea.


Gimme a minute then re-check.  brb
 
2014-03-19 07:33:31 PM  
Ukraine is withdrawing their troops, so there's that.
 
2014-03-19 07:37:43 PM  

Tr0mBoNe: polka-dot


i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-03-19 07:41:35 PM  
consortiumnews.com

expect incidents against russian minorities in kazakhstan in 3....2....

I guess that was the smart part about stalin's population transfers, wasn't it?  got them dern russkies everywhere and they can always go calling on moscow for help.
 
2014-03-19 07:41:37 PM  

The Southern Dandy: Ukraine is withdrawing their troops, so there's that.


Well if the country that was trying to keep it withdraws troops that is pretty much admitting defeat.
 
2014-03-19 07:42:55 PM  

wildcardjack: I know we shouldn't be making comparisons, but I seem to remember another incident in history where they merely wanted to reunite a people who spoke the same language but were in territory that shifted under treaty. And I'm not talking about the French reunion of Quebec.


Gran Colombia?
 
2014-03-19 07:50:51 PM  
Sudetenland!
President Peace Prize flummoxed!

The west stands by, paralyzed, as another dictator makes his move!
 
2014-03-19 07:56:07 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Sudetenland!
President Peace Prize flummoxed!

The west stands by, paralyzed, as another dictator makes his move!


So Obama instead should've done...
 
2014-03-19 07:57:35 PM  
Crimea has been mostly ethnic Russian for quite some time... and it was rather surprising that Yeltsin allowed the Crimea to become part of Ukraine when the Soviet Union officially broke up, rather than incorporate it into Russia. Does this excuse Pooty-Poot's stormtroopers moving in? No. Does it explain it? Yes.
 
2014-03-19 07:58:59 PM  

DamnYankees: I just checked Wikipedia, and the map of Ukraine still includes Crimea.


The only thing which can stop a bad guy with Wikipedia editing privileges is a good guy with Wikipedia editing privileges.
 
2014-03-19 07:59:55 PM  

Oldiron_79: The Southern Dandy: Ukraine is withdrawing their troops, so there's that.

Well if the country that was trying to keep it withdraws troops that is pretty much admitting defeat.


Ukraine has done all that they reasonably could. Crimea's fate was sealed the moment Yanukovych was deposed, as that gave Russia all the justification it needed in their eyes. Shooting would have only imperiled the rest of Ukraine and quite frankly would have been a slaughter.

It really sucks for the pro-Ukraine people living in Crimea that are now faced with the prospect of pulling up everything and leaving or being forced to live in what is now Russia.
 
2014-03-19 08:00:27 PM  

ADHD Librarian: DamnYankees: I just checked Wikipedia, and the map of Ukraine still includes Crimea.

The only thing which can stop a bad guy with Wikipedia editing privileges is a good guy with Wikipedia editing privileges.


Ahhh, spoken like a true librarian.
 
2014-03-19 08:05:21 PM  

Mrtraveler01: HotIgneous Intruder: Sudetenland!
President Peace Prize flummoxed!

The west stands by, paralyzed, as another dictator makes his move!

So Obama instead should've done...


Send a couple of unmarked Airborne divisions, supported by every operational A-10 Warthog in the U.S. inventory to Ukraine.
 
2014-03-19 08:06:34 PM  
So which side is the good guys again?
 
2014-03-19 08:07:25 PM  

Mrtraveler01: HotIgneous Intruder: Sudetenland!
President Peace Prize flummoxed!

The west stands by, paralyzed, as another dictator makes his move!

So Obama Chamberlain instead should've done...


What do you think ol' Neville should have done back in the day?  I'm curious.
 
2014-03-19 08:07:32 PM  

Mrtraveler01: HotIgneous Intruder: Sudetenland!
President Peace Prize flummoxed!

The west stands by, paralyzed, as another dictator makes his move!

So Obama instead should've done...


Called in Bush
 
2014-03-19 08:09:58 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Send a couple of unmarked Airborne divisions, supported by every operational A-10 Warthog in the U.S. inventory to Ukraine.


Why do you believe Crimea is worth sacrificing American lives over?
 
2014-03-19 08:15:32 PM  

OlderGuy: Mrtraveler01: HotIgneous Intruder: Sudetenland!
President Peace Prize flummoxed!

The west stands by, paralyzed, as another dictator makes his move!

So Obama instead should've done...

Called in Bush


So Obama can do the opposite?
 
2014-03-19 08:16:02 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Mrtraveler01: HotIgneous Intruder: Sudetenland!
President Peace Prize flummoxed!

The west stands by, paralyzed, as another dictator makes his move!

So Obama instead should've done...

Send a couple of unmarked Airborne divisions, supported by every operational A-10 Warthog in the U.S. inventory to Ukraine.


But who's gonna fly it, kid?  U(kraine)?
 
2014-03-19 08:16:15 PM  
The Bestest

He said UNMARKED...seems to be working for Russia...or is it, I'm confused...because there aren't any Russian soldiers in Crimea...just like the jets wouldn't be American if they were unmarked?
 
2014-03-19 08:16:27 PM  

lamecomedian: Mrtraveler01: HotIgneous Intruder: Sudetenland!
President Peace Prize flummoxed!

The west stands by, paralyzed, as another dictator makes his move!

So Obama Chamberlain instead should've done...

What do you think ol' Neville should have done back in the day?  I'm curious.


Way to dodge the question there.
 
2014-03-19 08:16:51 PM  

Omahawg: [consortiumnews.com image 303x218]

expect incidents against russian minorities in kazakhstan in 3....2....

I guess that was the smart part about stalin's population transfers, wasn't it?  got them dern russkies everywhere and they can always go calling on moscow for help.


So, you wanna have a war, then?

Yup, we'll just march right in there and the troops will be home by Christmas.
 
2014-03-19 08:21:30 PM  
global3.memecdn.com

/Putin cashed in and now his going to get 7 armies per turn.
Damn.
 
2014-03-19 08:22:12 PM  

Mrtraveler01: lamecomedian: Mrtraveler01: HotIgneous Intruder: Sudetenland!
President Peace Prize flummoxed!

The west stands by, paralyzed, as another dictator makes his move!

So Obama Chamberlain instead should've done...

What do you think ol' Neville should have done back in the day?  I'm curious.

Way to dodge the question there.


No, no, I'm being serious.  You are posing a valid question - i.e. "What options do we have?" with the implied follow up, "Are any of them better than what we are doing right now?"  What I'm interested in here is how we can use history as a guide for current events, since they seem to parallel so closely here.  You seem to be implying that taking a different approach (some kind of military deployment, immediate sanctions, etc.) would have unacceptable consequences, and that may well be true.  However, I'm curious as to whether you think the situation in Europe back in the 30s/40s would have been improved in Chamberlain et al had taken a different approach with Hitler.
 
2014-03-19 08:22:34 PM  

Hoblit: The Bestest

He said UNMARKED...seems to be working for Russia...or is it, I'm confused...because there aren't any Russian soldiers in Crimea...just like the jets wouldn't be American if they were unmarked?


Considering that no other nation to my knowledge uses the A-10...
 
2014-03-19 08:26:53 PM  

Omahawg: expect incidents against russian minorities in kazakhstan in 3....2....

I guess that was the smart part about stalin's population transfers, wasn't it?  got them dern russkies everywhere and they can always go calling on moscow for help.


Putin's spokesman was on the BBC earlier today, and was making references to incidents involving Russians in the eastern Ukraine.
 
2014-03-19 08:35:52 PM  
Regardless, the page will say "this article needs clean up..."
 
2014-03-19 08:40:20 PM  
Book it. Done. Not worth WWIII.
 
2014-03-19 08:41:54 PM  

lamecomedian: Mrtraveler01: lamecomedian: Mrtraveler01: HotIgneous Intruder: Sudetenland!
President Peace Prize flummoxed!

The west stands by, paralyzed, as another dictator makes his move!

So Obama Chamberlain instead should've done...

What do you think ol' Neville should have done back in the day?  I'm curious.

Way to dodge the question there.

No, no, I'm being serious.  You are posing a valid question - i.e. "What options do we have?" with the implied follow up, "Are any of them better than what we are doing right now?"  What I'm interested in here is how we can use history as a guide for current events, since they seem to parallel so closely here.  You seem to be implying that taking a different approach (some kind of military deployment, immediate sanctions, etc.) would have unacceptable consequences, and that may well be true.  However, I'm curious as to whether you think the situation in Europe back in the 30s/40s would have been improved in Chamberlain et al had taken a different approach with Hitler.


Popcorn.bat
 
2014-03-19 08:44:22 PM  

The Bestest: It really sucks for the pro-Ukraine people living in Crimea that are now faced with the prospect of pulling up everything and leaving or being forced to live in what is now Russia.


All depends how the Russians treat them. Russia may want to ensure the Crimea is economically successful in which case they may be better off economically in Russia. So, will Russia try to integrate them or drive them out? Can Russia keep a lid on their extremists?
 
2014-03-19 08:44:50 PM  

Oldiron_79: The Southern Dandy: Ukraine is withdrawing their troops, so there's that.

Well if the country that was trying to keep it withdraws troops that is pretty much admitting defeat.


Exactly.  So this is the thread where I say again Putin was not only right, he would win and we would no (and could not) do anything about it.  Everything he did was well within international laws and treaties by a giant margin.

1. The US backed an illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government in the Ukraine.
2.  The Russian people of Crimea constitute well over 90% of the population.
3. Russia has a Navy base in Crimea and is well within its rights within the agreement with Crimea and the
Ukraine and international law to protect that base.  Troop movements are common in this region
3.  For hundreds of years with the exception of the cold war it was part of Russia.
4.  Since the Soviet breakup a tentative settlement of a semi-autonomous region had been established.
5.  The government of Crimea duly got rid of their prime minister through a parliamentary vote that is well within their powers granted by law and completely common in other parliamentary driven countries.
6.  The newly elected government of Crimea asked for Russia's assistance.  Russia responded.
7. We threw a fit.  Did not seek a security council vote in the UN.  Russia of course holds veto power and for good reason in the same way we hold that power.
8.  The new government of Crimea called for an election.  Russia asked for international observers.  This request was ignored.
9.  Without any evidence of poorly run election, Crimea voted to join Russia where one choice was annexation.  The other choice was to follow the already established law of 1992 which had been violated by Ukraine.  Such election results are highly possible and plausible given the history, ethnic makeup, and political makeup of Crimea.  We again threw a fit.
10.  Crimea officially asked to join Russia.
11.  Russia agreed.
12.  We have no ability or desire to stop said actions.
13.  Europe is hostage to Russia for its natural resources.  Any sort of embargo would crush the world economy due to the escalated oil and natural gas prices.  Even though we do not use much Russian oil and no Russian natural gas, they do and so do many of their customers.  Loss of this resource in the international markets would cause complete chaos and drive the world into a deep deep recession and possibly topple the governments of most of our allies in Europe.  By topple, I mean they would be removed by their respective parliaments in the same way the Crimean prime minister was removed and the way countless prime ministers across the globe and across time have been removed.


Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we are right or can do anything about it.  When this is no longer news in 12 months our leaders will pretend it never happened.  The end.
 
2014-03-19 08:48:46 PM  
SUBBY: National Geographic, Wikipedia surrender Crimea to Russia

TFA Headline: Should Wikipedia Put Crimea on the Russian Map?  The world's largest source of human knowledge cedes Crimea to Russia on the map, but the debate is far from over.

TFA itself: National Geographic and Wikipedia have acknowledged a difficult situation and each has created special markings on its maps to recognize that the area is currently disputed.

YOUR SOURCE IS TROLLY, SUBBY, AND YOU SHOULD FEEL TROLLY TOO.
 
2014-03-19 09:13:15 PM  

brandent: Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we are right or can do anything about it. When this is no longer news in 12 months our leaders will pretend it never happened. The end.


Well said. All the neocon/republican chickenhawks saying this is such a terrible thing and will lead to Russia taking over eastern Europe are either willfully ignorant or partisan shills that look for anything to attack the administration over.
 
2014-03-19 09:15:12 PM  

brandent: Oldiron_79: The Southern Dandy: Ukraine is withdrawing their troops, so there's that.

Well if the country that was trying to keep it withdraws troops that is pretty much admitting defeat.

Exactly.  So this is the thread where I say again Putin was not only right, he would win and we would no (and could not) do anything about it.  Everything he did was well within international laws and treaties by a giant margin.

1. The US backed an illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government in the Ukraine.
2.  The Russian people of Crimea constitute well over 90% of the population.
3. Russia has a Navy base in Crimea and is well within its rights within the agreement with Crimea and theUkraine and international law to protect that base.  Troop movements are common in this region
3.  For hundreds of years with the exception of the cold war it was part of Russia.
4.  Since the Soviet breakup a tentative settlement of a semi-autonomous region had been established.
5.  The government of Crimea duly got rid of their prime minister through a parliamentary vote that is well within their powers granted by law and completely common in other parliamentary driven countries.
6.  The newly elected government of Crimea asked for Russia's assistance.  Russia responded.
7. We threw a fit.  Did not seek a security council vote in the UN.  Russia of course holds veto power and for good reason in the same way we hold that power.
8.  The new government of Crimea called for an election.  Russia asked for international observers.  This request was ignored.
9.  Without any evidence of poorly run election, Crimea voted to join Russia where one choice was annexation.  The other choice was to follow the already established law of 1992 which had been violated by Ukraine.  Such election results are highly possible and plausible given the history, ethnic makeup, and political makeup of Crimea.  We again threw a fit.
10.  Crimea officially asked to join Russia.
11.  Russia agreed.
12.  We have no ability or desire to stop said actions.
13.  Europe is hostage to Russia for its natural resources.  Any sort of embargo would crush the world economy due to the escalated oil and natural gas prices.  Even though we do not use much Russian oil and no Russian natural gas, they do and so do many of their customers.  Loss of this resource in the international markets would cause complete chaos and drive the world into a deep deep recession and possibly topple the governments of most of our allies in Europe.  By topple, I mean they would be removed by their respective parliaments in the same way the Crimean prime minister was removed and the way countless prime ministers across the globe and across time have been removed.


Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we are right or can do anything about it.  When this is no longer news in 12 months our leaders will pretend it never happened.  The end.


You've dumped a crock of steaming poop here. You really should clean it up instead of staring at it.

I think Putin thinks that after South Ossetia got him a reset button, Crimea will be forgotten. That's a mistake, because it won't. He invaded another country.
 
2014-03-19 09:24:14 PM  
Crimea is not 90% Russian, not even close.
 
2014-03-19 09:26:41 PM  

Animatronik: You've dumped a crock of steaming poop here. You really should clean it up instead of staring at it.

I think Putin thinks that after South Ossetia got him a reset button, Crimea will be forgotten. That's a mistake, because it won't. He invaded another country.


What exactly do you imagine someone will do to stop him?
 
2014-03-19 09:33:08 PM  

TheJoe03: Crimea is not 90% Russian, not even close.


Closer to 60%, but 77% claim Russian as their native language.


Ethnic Russians are far and away the largest single ethnic group in Crimea.
 
2014-03-19 09:38:51 PM  

Dinki: TheJoe03: Crimea is not 90% Russian, not even close.

Closer to 60%, but 77% claim Russian as their native language.


Ethnic Russians are far and away the largest single ethnic group in Crimea.


Okay, but 58% is still far from "well over 90%". That being his second point made me think he had a strong bias toward the Russian side and I didn't take the rest of the post seriously.
 
2014-03-19 09:45:23 PM  

brimed03: YOU SHOULD FEEL TROLLY TOO.


I feel like a shopping cart, myself.


/ Obscure?
 
2014-03-19 09:46:49 PM  

brandent: Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we are right or can do anything about it.  When this is no longer news in 12 months our leaders will pretend it never happened.


People in the GOP will whine about this for some time, I think ( even though GWB would have behaved no differently than Obama if this happened during his Presidency)
 
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