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(Washington Post)   Pro-Russian forces peacefully request control of Ukrainian naval base. Just kidding, they ram a vehicle through the gate and take it by force   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 13
    More: Followup, Ukrainian, Russians, Russian forces, naval base, Prime Minister of Ukraine, Sevastopol, Black Sea Fleet, Russian flag  
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2750 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Mar 2014 at 2:33 PM (30 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-19 03:00:49 PM  
3 votes:

Fark_Guy_Rob: Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.  Might makes right.  In none of these cases did the entire population agree.  In none of these cases were there not a complex political system with all sorts of interested parties standing to win or lose depending on the outcome.  The South lost the war, so we celebrate that they were denied independence.  In the other cases, freedom won out, so we celebrate that too.  Whoever wins throws a party and writes the history books.

As far as Russia is concerned, it is removing unwelcome foreign troops.
As far as the Ukraine is concerned, it's an invasion.

Just like the US declaration of independence was a small terrorist uprising fueled by their conspiring enemies - the French.


I believe all people have right to self determination. Including Crimea.

However this wasn't a fair referendum of public opinion. There were armed Russian soldiers at the booths.


42% of population are ethnicities highly opposed to Russia.

Within the 58% Russian ethnic group a large number of the younger generations are pro Ukraine.

There is no way 97% want to join Russia. We don't even know that 50% do. Its probably pretty close 50:50 which way a fair referendum would go.

This isn't Crimea electing to join Russia. It is a group of people in Crimea AND Russia military saying Crimea should join Russia. This may or may not reflect the will of the people.
2014-03-19 02:38:41 PM  
2 votes:
So if an unmarked stealth bomber dropped bombs on Moscow it would be no big deal and reason for retaliation...

... it was after all unmarked and not officially American. No justification to retaliate with unmarked nukes.
2014-03-19 02:35:26 PM  
2 votes:
Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years... Labor and food riots in Poland. Soviet troops invade... Cuba and Nicaragua reach troop strength goals of 500,000. El Salvador and Honduras fall... Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament. Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil... Mexico plunged into revolution... NATO dissolves. United States stands alone.

It begins.
2014-03-19 03:53:29 PM  
1 votes:

btfoom: but, but, the earlier story said that Putin and Russia were losing all over the place in Europe, especially the Ukraine.


Turkey is the real power that controls the Black Sea.
2014-03-19 03:36:48 PM  
1 votes:

smoky2010: Mell of a Hess: Fark_Guy_Rob: Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.

None of those entities had atomic capabilities.

Also, none of them were fed a constant diet of propaganda and BS, full of lines and slander


Not at all.  Propaganda was just as much apart of things back in the day.  In a lot of ways it was easier to spread lies/rumors given how slow communication channels were.
http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/war-for-independence/res ou rces/revolutionary-propaganda-persuasion-and-colonial-suppo

Long before the declaration of independence, a small minority of people started talking of independence.  The overwhelming majority did not.  The colonists viewed themselves as British.  There was a huge public image/propaganda campaign to help sway the locals into gearing up for war.

"In order to encourage support, speeches and letters were published outlining the colonial grievances in pamphlets or broadsides. Through these documents, colonists attempted to create democratic change within their political structure "
2014-03-19 03:27:55 PM  
1 votes:
Unless Russia is going to build a canal to bypass to Bosphorus, their Black Sea fleet is at the mercy of Turkey and NATO.
2014-03-19 03:06:04 PM  
1 votes:

sethen320: Dumb question: What if they did get into a shooting war?  Would it really be WW3 or just another regional squabble?  Thoughts?


As others have said possible, but unlikely.  IF Ukraine and Russia mix it up, the Ukranian army will get curbstomped.  They will do damage, don't get me wrong, but they have no chance and they know it.  Which is why they are trying not to shoot during these incidents.

The rest of the world will condone it and make it hurt Russia economically, but nobody is going to send troops in.  Russia will most likely take the eastern half and have a puppet in the western part so as to provide a buffer between it and NATO.

Putin is gambling that the west won't risk a potential war with him over a piece of land that used to be a part of the USSR, and he's right.  As long as they stay in Crimea I believe the worlds reaction will be mild.  The US wants hard hitting sanctions, but Europe doesn't so as long as Putin stays off the mainland it will be pretty mild.  If Russia moves to the mainland then I personally suspect the EU will change it's mind.

//just my 2 cents
2014-03-19 02:55:55 PM  
1 votes:
Pro-Russian forces peacefully request control of Ukrainian naval base. Just kidding, they ram a vehicle through the gate and take it by force

\ftfm
2014-03-19 02:55:54 PM  
1 votes:
It looks like the Russians grabbed a souvenir when they took the base.
2014-03-19 02:49:19 PM  
1 votes:
Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.  Might makes right.  In none of these cases did the entire population agree.  In none of these cases were there not a complex political system with all sorts of interested parties standing to win or lose depending on the outcome.  The South lost the war, so we celebrate that they were denied independence.  In the other cases, freedom won out, so we celebrate that too.  Whoever wins throws a party and writes the history books.

As far as Russia is concerned, it is removing unwelcome foreign troops.
As far as the Ukraine is concerned, it's an invasion.

Just like the US declaration of independence was a small terrorist uprising fueled by their conspiring enemies - the French.
2014-03-19 02:47:19 PM  
1 votes:

sethen320: Dumb question: What if they did get into a shooting war?  Would it really be WW3 or just another regional squabble?  Thoughts?


It'll be a regional pissing contest. You will never see WW3.
2014-03-19 02:42:05 PM  
1 votes:

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I hope some Ukrainians blow up some LNG pipelines and refineries as they pull out.


The pipelines that lead to Ukraine? Great strategy.
2014-03-19 02:37:43 PM  
1 votes:

SecretAgentWoman: That's a pretty pathetic military base if so easily overwhelmed.


They were probably told not to start a shooting war with Russia.
 
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