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(Washington Post)   Pro-Russian forces peacefully request control of Ukrainian naval base. Just kidding, they ram a vehicle through the gate and take it by force   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 73
    More: Followup, Ukrainian, Russians, Russian forces, naval base, Prime Minister of Ukraine, Sevastopol, Black Sea Fleet, Russian flag  
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2753 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Mar 2014 at 2:33 PM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



73 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-03-19 01:27:21 PM  
Unmarked uniforms and masks?  This seems legit.
 
2014-03-19 02:26:05 PM  
That's a pretty pathetic military base if so easily overwhelmed.
 
2014-03-19 02:35:02 PM  
Is that soldier holding his gun by placing the butt on the ground and his hands over the barrel?
 
2014-03-19 02:35:26 PM  
Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years... Labor and food riots in Poland. Soviet troops invade... Cuba and Nicaragua reach troop strength goals of 500,000. El Salvador and Honduras fall... Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament. Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil... Mexico plunged into revolution... NATO dissolves. United States stands alone.

It begins.
 
2014-03-19 02:35:32 PM  

EvilEgg: Unmarked uniforms and masks?  This seems legit.


Hasn't that kind of been a thing during this whole affair?  It's always "pro-Russian" forces in most of the stories I've seen.  Maybe I'm just clicking the wrong links.
 
2014-03-19 02:37:39 PM  
That's just rude.  And,

"Listen, shug ... don't forget to say your prayers."
optimalprediction.com
 
2014-03-19 02:37:43 PM  

SecretAgentWoman: That's a pretty pathetic military base if so easily overwhelmed.


They were probably told not to start a shooting war with Russia.
 
2014-03-19 02:37:51 PM  

netweavr: Is that soldier holding his gun by placing the butt on the ground and his hands over the barrel?


The bulk of the Russian army is 12-month conscripts. I'm not sure experience and discipline are necessarily their strongpoints.
 
2014-03-19 02:38:38 PM  
Might not be that hard to do against the Russians either.

Red Dawn - Raid of Reeducation Camp/Drive In Movie Theater

/WOLVERINES!
 
2014-03-19 02:38:41 PM  
So if an unmarked stealth bomber dropped bombs on Moscow it would be no big deal and reason for retaliation...

... it was after all unmarked and not officially American. No justification to retaliate with unmarked nukes.
 
2014-03-19 02:38:55 PM  

SecretAgentWoman: That's a pretty pathetic military base if so easily overwhelmed.


they have probably been ordered not to open fire.... maybe even if fired upon. I think Russia is actually hoping to get some casualties on their side to further justify their actions. Not sure why.... they seem to be doing just fine without that. It would have made sense during the opening moves of this play but not as much anymore.
 
2014-03-19 02:39:58 PM  
I hope some Ukrainians blow up some LNG pipelines and refineries as they pull out.
 
2014-03-19 02:40:08 PM  
Criminy!
 
2014-03-19 02:42:05 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I hope some Ukrainians blow up some LNG pipelines and refineries as they pull out.


The pipelines that lead to Ukraine? Great strategy.
 
2014-03-19 02:43:11 PM  
Dumb question: What if they did get into a shooting war?  Would it really be WW3 or just another regional squabble?  Thoughts?
 
2014-03-19 02:44:55 PM  
but, but, the earlier story said that Putin and Russia were losing all over the place in Europe, especially the Ukraine.
 
2014-03-19 02:45:27 PM  
Subby what the fark!? You don't even have the decency to post the Russian dash cam footage

/I would like to see it
 
2014-03-19 02:46:03 PM  

SecretAgentWoman: That's a pretty pathetic military base if so easily overwhelmed.


They say that the Ukrainians are not fighting back on purpose. They are taking the high road, supposedly, waiting for a political solution.

I think it's time for them to start fighting back. Although it is really a lost cause as the Russians have better weapons, training, and numbers than the Ukrainians.
 
2014-03-19 02:46:42 PM  
RuSSiA  sTrong!!11!
 
2014-03-19 02:47:19 PM  

sethen320: Dumb question: What if they did get into a shooting war?  Would it really be WW3 or just another regional squabble?  Thoughts?


It'll be a regional pissing contest. You will never see WW3.
 
2014-03-19 02:47:32 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I hope some Ukrainians blow up some LNG pipelines and refineries as they pull out.


i don't think any of the really important lines go through Crimea. (I could be wrong). But for a while now I've been thinking that Ukraine should hold both the EU and Russia hostage by threatening to blow up all those pipes. It would be a desperate, dangerous gambit... but it would make for an interesting conflict. IDK that actually blowing up the lines is a good idea... but the threat of it seems to have a lot of potential. It needs to be more of a hostage situation and not so much of a reckless of a scorch the earth deal

* It could antagonize the EU into letting Russia do what it wants... or shame them into enacting actual sanctions against Russia. (It also removes the ability of Russia to intimidate Europe with cutting off the gas, since the gas would have been cut off already).

* It could scare the Russians or provoke them into taking more of Ukraine

* And then there's the fact that Ukraine also gets its own gas from those pipes.

.
 
2014-03-19 02:48:58 PM  

sethen320: Dumb question: What if they did get into a shooting war?  Would it really be WW3 or just another regional squabble?  Though

dukeblue219: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I hope some Ukrainians blow up some LNG pipelines and refineries as they pull out.

The pipelines that lead to Ukraine? Great strategy.


As I said in a previous thread, that could be the next phase by Russia.  Stage a small attack on the pipeline by special forces leaving behind incriminating evidence of Ukraine (that can be easily fixed so as not to disrupt the sales too much) blaming Ukrainian forces/rebels.  In order to secure the pipeline and protect a strategic asset both for Russia and the rest of Europe, the Russians move into neighboring territory to protect the pipeline.  It just so happens that this territory is also Pro Russian and can be incorporated into a greater Crimea/Eastern Ukraine after a similar voting process we saw in Crimea directing Russia to annex them..
 
2014-03-19 02:49:18 PM  

dukeblue219: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I hope some Ukrainians blow up some LNG pipelines and refineries as they pull out.

The pipelines that lead to Ukraine? Great strategy.


if you want to make an omelette, you gotta break a few eggs. Then again... if you don't have gas for your stove, you ain't making an omelette.
 
2014-03-19 02:49:19 PM  
Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.  Might makes right.  In none of these cases did the entire population agree.  In none of these cases were there not a complex political system with all sorts of interested parties standing to win or lose depending on the outcome.  The South lost the war, so we celebrate that they were denied independence.  In the other cases, freedom won out, so we celebrate that too.  Whoever wins throws a party and writes the history books.

As far as Russia is concerned, it is removing unwelcome foreign troops.
As far as the Ukraine is concerned, it's an invasion.

Just like the US declaration of independence was a small terrorist uprising fueled by their conspiring enemies - the French.
 
2014-03-19 02:49:21 PM  

smoky2010: SecretAgentWoman: That's a pretty pathetic military base if so easily overwhelmed.

They say that the Ukrainians are not fighting back on purpose. They are taking the high road, supposedly, waiting for a political solution.

I think it's time for them to start fighting back. Although it is really a lost cause as the Russians have better weapons, training, and numbers than the Ukrainians.


I think the time for that has come and gone.
 
2014-03-19 02:51:12 PM  
So Russia, for all these years, has had bases in Ukraine after losing that territory at the breakup of the USSR, but now they won't let Ukraine keep a base in Russia after Ukraine lost the territory back?
 
2014-03-19 02:51:21 PM  

sethen320: Dumb question: What if they did get into a shooting war?  Would it really be WW3 or just another regional squabble?  Thoughts?


Any thoughts would be, at best, uneducated guesses.  But I could fill in the blanks with metric ton of BS, derp, saber rattling and Obama bla....hold on
yes, this is Bird.  Fox News?  Sorry, I'm busy taking a dump.  I would be happy to send it to you for use as content.
 
2014-03-19 02:55:54 PM  
It looks like the Russians grabbed a souvenir when they took the base.
 
2014-03-19 02:55:55 PM  
Pro-Russian forces peacefully request control of Ukrainian naval base. Just kidding, they ram a vehicle through the gate and take it by force

\ftfm
 
2014-03-19 02:56:17 PM  
The Ukrainians can't really fight back.    They have a vintage force that would be wiped in few days.
I'm not knocking anyone with family in Ukraine.   They may be brave etc, etc...  but thier 1970's forces would be no match whatsoever.

Politics is thier only hope.   And they are playing politics with Russia.   They will lose at that game too.
 
2014-03-19 02:59:18 PM  

toadist: The Ukrainians can't really fight back.    They have a vintage force that would be wiped in few days.
I'm not knocking anyone with family in Ukraine.   They may be brave etc, etc...  but thier 1970's forces would be no match whatsoever.

Politics is thier only hope.   And they are playing politics with Russia.   They will lose at that game too.

they all know that the governments of the last 20 years stole all the money that was supposed to go to the military. It was one of the first assets they raided.

 
2014-03-19 03:00:49 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.  Might makes right.  In none of these cases did the entire population agree.  In none of these cases were there not a complex political system with all sorts of interested parties standing to win or lose depending on the outcome.  The South lost the war, so we celebrate that they were denied independence.  In the other cases, freedom won out, so we celebrate that too.  Whoever wins throws a party and writes the history books.

As far as Russia is concerned, it is removing unwelcome foreign troops.
As far as the Ukraine is concerned, it's an invasion.

Just like the US declaration of independence was a small terrorist uprising fueled by their conspiring enemies - the French.


I believe all people have right to self determination. Including Crimea.

However this wasn't a fair referendum of public opinion. There were armed Russian soldiers at the booths.


42% of population are ethnicities highly opposed to Russia.

Within the 58% Russian ethnic group a large number of the younger generations are pro Ukraine.

There is no way 97% want to join Russia. We don't even know that 50% do. Its probably pretty close 50:50 which way a fair referendum would go.

This isn't Crimea electing to join Russia. It is a group of people in Crimea AND Russia military saying Crimea should join Russia. This may or may not reflect the will of the people.
 
2014-03-19 03:01:00 PM  

btfoom: but, but, the earlier story said that Putin and Russia were losing all over the place in Europe, especially the Ukraine.


Strategy vs. Tactics, Macro vs. Micro.

Taking one base doesn't really change or rebut anything in the previous article.
 
2014-03-19 03:03:46 PM  
Can you imagine if in 2014, The United States just too Vancouver because it felt like it?
 
2014-03-19 03:04:30 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.  Might makes right.  In none of these cases did the entire population agree.  In none of these cases were there not a complex political system with all sorts of interested parties standing to win or lose depending on the outcome.  The South lost the war, so we celebrate that they were denied independence.  In the other cases, freedom won out, so we celebrate that too.  Whoever wins throws a party and writes the history books.

As far as Russia is concerned, it is removing unwelcome foreign troops.
As far as the Ukraine is concerned, it's an invasion.

Just like the US declaration of independence was a small terrorist uprising fueled by their conspiring enemies - the French.


That is all true, unfortunately we also promised Ukraine that we would protect them from Russia when they gave up their nukes. We aren't..
 
2014-03-19 03:05:51 PM  
It feels like junior high.  The big bully Russia is taking Ukraine's lunch money.  We're all standing around watching scrawny little Ukraine lose something and knowing they can't do anything to prevent it.  Some of us speak up and say something to the bully, but not so much that we actually piss him off, because even though we could totally take him we might get our shirt dirty.  Meanwhile a lot of people are starting to crowd around yelling "fight, fight!", and there's not a single teacher anywhere to be found.
 
2014-03-19 03:06:04 PM  

sethen320: Dumb question: What if they did get into a shooting war?  Would it really be WW3 or just another regional squabble?  Thoughts?


As others have said possible, but unlikely.  IF Ukraine and Russia mix it up, the Ukranian army will get curbstomped.  They will do damage, don't get me wrong, but they have no chance and they know it.  Which is why they are trying not to shoot during these incidents.

The rest of the world will condone it and make it hurt Russia economically, but nobody is going to send troops in.  Russia will most likely take the eastern half and have a puppet in the western part so as to provide a buffer between it and NATO.

Putin is gambling that the west won't risk a potential war with him over a piece of land that used to be a part of the USSR, and he's right.  As long as they stay in Crimea I believe the worlds reaction will be mild.  The US wants hard hitting sanctions, but Europe doesn't so as long as Putin stays off the mainland it will be pretty mild.  If Russia moves to the mainland then I personally suspect the EU will change it's mind.

//just my 2 cents
 
2014-03-19 03:10:35 PM  

sethen320: Dumb question: What if they did get into a shooting war?  Would it really be WW3 or just another regional squabble?  Thoughts?


squabble. However, a shooting a war there with the right public support might get them US and EU support via material and currency. Though it would probably be done quietly. We'd obviously still trade with Russia though, but our only winnable strategy would be to make it a repeat of the Russian occupation of Afghanistan or our Vietnam. Unfortunately the people of Ukraine have yet to show us the resolve it would take for us to prop up a bloody multi decade insurgency that would claim far too many of their people and frankly and sadly it comes down to money right now, trade with russia is more important that trade with ukraine.

The great hope for the 21st century was that we'd reach a level of inter-connectivity where war would seem silly because everyone was your trade partner. Unfortunately, especially when economic systems are fragile like they still are, you can muscle your way to territory and wars as long as those in the world forum would be financially hurt without you.

I'm certainly not onboard the nutjob neo-con ideology but in a lot of ways they were accurate about forecasting what could be accomplished back in the nineties when they started rearing up. We could march to the antartic and no one in europe/asia would really fark with us over it.
 
2014-03-19 03:12:06 PM  

MindStalker: Fark_Guy_Rob: Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.  Might makes right.  In none of these cases did the entire population agree.  In none of these cases were there not a complex political system with all sorts of interested parties standing to win or lose depending on the outcome.  The South lost the war, so we celebrate that they were denied independence.  In the other cases, freedom won out, so we celebrate that too.  Whoever wins throws a party and writes the history books.

As far as Russia is concerned, it is removing unwelcome foreign troops.
As far as the Ukraine is concerned, it's an invasion.

Just like the US declaration of independence was a small terrorist uprising fueled by their conspiring enemies - the French.

That is all true, unfortunately we also promised Ukraine that we would protect them from Russia when they gave up their nukes. We aren't..


Agreed - it's like the contract you sign when you buy a used car.  I mean, sure, you've got this piece of paper, but good luck enforcing it :)
 
2014-03-19 03:12:45 PM  

abominare: sethen320: Dumb question: What if they did get into a shooting war?  Would it really be WW3 or just another regional squabble?  Thoughts?

squabble. However, a shooting a war there with the right public support might get them US and EU support via material and currency. Though it would probably be done quietly. We'd obviously still trade with Russia though, but our only winnable strategy would be to make it a repeat of the Russian occupation of Afghanistan or our Vietnam. Unfortunately the people of Ukraine have yet to show us the resolve it would take for us to prop up a bloody multi decade insurgency that would claim far too many of their people and frankly and sadly it comes down to money right now, trade with russia is more important that trade with ukraine.

The great hope for the 21st century was that we'd reach a level of inter-connectivity where war would seem silly because everyone was your trade partner. Unfortunately, especially when economic systems are fragile like they still are, you can muscle your way to territory and wars as long as those in the world forum would be financially hurt without you.

I'm certainly not onboard the nutjob neo-con ideology but in a lot of ways they were accurate about forecasting what could be accomplished back in the nineties when they started rearing up. We could march to the antartic and no one in europe/asia would really fark with us over it.


Everyone has had some interesting thoughts on this.  I am in the "squabble" camp, but I can see the potential for things to get ugly if emotion takes over.
 
2014-03-19 03:13:09 PM  

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I hope some Ukrainians blow up some LNG pipelines and refineries as they pull out.


Sweet! Give Putin some proof of "terrorism"!!
 
2014-03-19 03:13:31 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: MindStalker: Fark_Guy_Rob: Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.  Might makes right.  In none of these cases did the entire population agree.  In none of these cases were there not a complex political system with all sorts of interested parties standing to win or lose depending on the outcome.  The South lost the war, so we celebrate that they were denied independence.  In the other cases, freedom won out, so we celebrate that too.  Whoever wins throws a party and writes the history books.

As far as Russia is concerned, it is removing unwelcome foreign troops.
As far as the Ukraine is concerned, it's an invasion.

Just like the US declaration of independence was a small terrorist uprising fueled by their conspiring enemies - the French.

That is all true, unfortunately we also promised Ukraine that we would protect them from Russia when they gave up their nukes. We aren't..

Agreed - it's like the contract you sign when you buy a used car.  I mean, sure, you've got this piece of paper, but good luck enforcing it :)


So you're telling me that the dealer sn't going to provide a free loaner?
 
2014-03-19 03:16:19 PM  
hutchkc:  condemn not  condone
 
2014-03-19 03:18:41 PM  
Everything about this move seems so dumb, and the Ukranians, in not fighting back, make the Russians look more foolish.

Now Russia has to administrate, defend, police, build infrastructure, and take on all of the costs of Crimea.

Before, Russia  could use everything "in kind" (lower prices on Natural Gas and Oil) as a payment for their "Lease" of access to the Black Sea Fleet of rather limited value in the first place as Turkey is a NATO member, and can close the Bosphorous any time it wants, as it now has in reaction to this activity.

Now Russia has to administrate, defend, police, build infrastructure, and take on all of the costs of Crimea.

The cost of this Crimea adventure could be as much as 3 Billion dollars US a year.
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/25015873/what-annexing-crimea-will-c os t-russias-government
The average income of Crimea is $5,000 US equivalent, and most of the people living there are pensioners, who used to be supported by the Ukrainian government, but will now have to supported by the Russian government.
No one from Ukraine will come to Crimea for the Summer, as they used to, and so even less revenue will be coming in to support the Crimean economy.  Then more subsidies will be needed.

The whole thing seems so dumb and dangerous, it is absurd that it is even happening and no visible benefits to Russia come out of the process.
 
2014-03-19 03:19:47 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.


None of those entities had atomic capabilities.
 
2014-03-19 03:22:15 PM  
I just don't understand why the Russians are considered so much better than the Ukrainian military. They couldn't deal with Chechnya the first time, they had to retreat and go in a second time. Their equipment and training is so poor that they warned the world years ago that the only way they could win a war against any half-competent military was to go nuclear-- their conventional forces fared horribly in war games.

All I've heard since then is ongoing decay of their military infrastructure as evidenced by the loss of the Kursk.

If Poland backs Ukraine militarily then I think Russia is in serious trouble. The other Baltic states will follow suit and by their own admission the Russians couldn't defeat them all. Russia would end up not just minus the Crimea but minus Kaliningrad as well. They couldn't invade Russia but they would not have to.

Sure Belarus would join in with Russia but NATO would ensure that the member states were well equipped. If the Ukraine was willing to be a battleground I don't see them losing the war.

The only real question is whether the Ukrainian military believes that hosting a war would be better than living with Putin. If they decide not to fight back, nobody else will think it is worth it either. Putin will consolidate whatever is necessary to empower the Kremlin for another century behind their nuclear curtain.
 
2014-03-19 03:25:02 PM  

smoky2010: They say that the Ukrainians are not fighting back on purpose. They are taking the high road, supposedly, waiting for a political solution.

I think it's time for them to start fighting back. Although it is really a lost cause as the Russians have better weapons, training, and numbers than the Ukrainians.


Except for that whole violent protest to take control of the government instead of elections, even though they were already their own independent nation.
 
2014-03-19 03:25:45 PM  

kbronsito: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: I hope some Ukrainians blow up some LNG pipelines and refineries as they pull out.

i don't think any of the really important lines go through Crimea. (I could be wrong). But for a while now I've been thinking that Ukraine should hold both the EU and Russia hostage by threatening to blow up all those pipes. It would be a desperate, dangerous gambit... but it would make for an interesting conflict. IDK that actually blowing up the lines is a good idea... but the threat of it seems to have a lot of potential. It needs to be more of a hostage situation and not so much of a reckless of a scorch the earth deal

* It could antagonize the EU into letting Russia do what it wants... or shame them into enacting actual sanctions against Russia. (It also removes the ability of Russia to intimidate Europe with cutting off the gas, since the gas would have been cut off already).

* It could scare the Russians or provoke them into taking more of Ukraine

* And then there's the fact that Ukraine also gets its own gas from those pipes.



img2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-03-19 03:26:13 PM  

Mell of a Hess: Fark_Guy_Rob: Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.

None of those entities had atomic capabilities.


Also, none of them were fed a constant diet of propaganda and BS, full of lines and slander
 
2014-03-19 03:27:55 PM  
Unless Russia is going to build a canal to bypass to Bosphorus, their Black Sea fleet is at the mercy of Turkey and NATO.
 
2014-03-19 03:33:12 PM  

BolloxReader: I just don't understand why the Russians are considered so much better than the Ukrainian military. They couldn't deal with Chechnya the first time, they had to retreat and go in a second time. Their equipment and training is so poor that they warned the world years ago that the only way they could win a war against any half-competent military was to go nuclear-- their conventional forces fared horribly in war games.



The Russians have been spending money upgrading training/equipment since they took that beating.  From I'm reading the hardware would be roughly equal in quality as both aren't that whoopie.  The Ukranians are supposedly better trained and that will give them a leg up.  The Russian advantage comes down to sheer numbers as they have more of everything and a lot more.  The general consensus seems to be Russia will Zerg rush if it goes to a shooting war.
 
2014-03-19 03:34:16 PM  

Acravius: Everything about this move seems so dumb, and the Ukranians, in not fighting back, make the Russians look more foolish.

Now Russia has to administrate, defend, police, build infrastructure, and take on all of the costs of Crimea.

Before, Russia  could use everything "in kind" (lower prices on Natural Gas and Oil) as a payment for their "Lease" of access to the Black Sea Fleet of rather limited value in the first place as Turkey is a NATO member, and can close the Bosphorous any time it wants, as it now has in reaction to this activity.

Now Russia has to administrate, defend, police, build infrastructure, and take on all of the costs of Crimea.

The cost of this Crimea adventure could be as much as 3 Billion dollars US a year.
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/25015873/what-annexing-crimea-will-c os t-russias-government
The average income of Crimea is $5,000 US equivalent, and most of the people living there are pensioners, who used to be supported by the Ukrainian government, but will now have to supported by the Russian government.
No one from Ukraine will come to Crimea for the Summer, as they used to, and so even less revenue will be coming in to support the Crimean economy.  Then more subsidies will be needed.

The whole thing seems so dumb and dangerous, it is absurd that it is even happening and no visible benefits to Russia come out of the process.


They also want the Russian citizens.   Russia is circling the demographic drain.  Their people are not having any children and many of the young are leaving for the west. The population is in decline so adding 2m more Russians can help stem the tide a little. The larger the base population, the greater the hope that they can stabilize the population at least at replacement levels instead of a steady decline.
 
2014-03-19 03:36:44 PM  
Did they bring a flag?
 
2014-03-19 03:36:48 PM  

smoky2010: Mell of a Hess: Fark_Guy_Rob: Crimea declared independence.

Just like Texas did from Mexico.
Just like the US did from England.
Just like the South did from the North.

I don't see much difference.

None of those entities had atomic capabilities.

Also, none of them were fed a constant diet of propaganda and BS, full of lines and slander


Not at all.  Propaganda was just as much apart of things back in the day.  In a lot of ways it was easier to spread lies/rumors given how slow communication channels were.
http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/war-for-independence/res ou rces/revolutionary-propaganda-persuasion-and-colonial-suppo

Long before the declaration of independence, a small minority of people started talking of independence.  The overwhelming majority did not.  The colonists viewed themselves as British.  There was a huge public image/propaganda campaign to help sway the locals into gearing up for war.

"In order to encourage support, speeches and letters were published outlining the colonial grievances in pamphlets or broadsides. Through these documents, colonists attempted to create democratic change within their political structure "
 
2014-03-19 03:36:52 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-03-19 03:38:05 PM  

Acravius: Everything about this move seems so dumb, and the Ukranians, in not fighting back, make the Russians look more foolish.

Now Russia has to administrate, defend, police, build infrastructure, and take on all of the costs of Crimea.

Before, Russia could use everything "in kind" (lower prices on Natural Gas and Oil) as a payment for their "Lease" of access to the Black Sea Fleet of rather limited value in the first place as Turkey is a NATO member, and can close the Bosphorous any time it wants, as it now has in reaction to this activity.

Now Russia has to administrate, defend, police, build infrastructure, and take on all of the costs of Crimea.

The cost of this Crimea adventure could be as much as 3 Billion dollars US a year.
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/25015873/what-annexing-crimea-will-c os t-russias-government
The average income of Crimea is $5,000 US equivalent, and most of the people living there are pensioners, who used to be supported by the Ukrainian government, but will now have to supported by the Russian government.
No one from Ukraine will come to Crimea for the Summer, as they used to, and so even less revenue will be coming in to support the Crimean economy. Then more subsidies will be needed.

The whole thing seems so dumb and dangerous, it is absurd that it is even happening and no visible benefits to Russia come out of the process.


Better to be Debt slave to European Central Bank?  Hope they enjoy their austerity measures and unpayable loans.
 
2014-03-19 03:44:43 PM  

OnlyM3: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x306]


Commie.
 
2014-03-19 03:46:42 PM  
I thought Russia had a Naval Base in Ukraine, is this a seperate Ukrainian facility?
 
2014-03-19 03:48:00 PM  
FTFA:
"Russia thinks Ukraine is weak," Filipchuk said. "Russia thinks the world is weak and frightened."


Uh oh!
images.yuku.com
 
2014-03-19 03:53:29 PM  

btfoom: but, but, the earlier story said that Putin and Russia were losing all over the place in Europe, especially the Ukraine.


Turkey is the real power that controls the Black Sea.
 
2014-03-19 04:13:41 PM  
The Ukraine is weak.
 
2014-03-19 04:28:06 PM  

flynn80: I thought Russia had a Naval Base in Ukraine, is this a seperate Ukrainian facility?


Yes.  When the Soviet Union broke up, since the Black Sea Fleet was located in Ukraine, Russia and Ukraine agreed to split the fleet and Ukraine agreed to offer Russia a 30 year lease on the port in Crimea for basing purposes in addition to allowing Russian forces associated with the fleet to remain in the Ukraine (that decision is biting them in the ass).  Ukraine actually received two Russian aircraft carriers which they had no use for and sold to China (one of which is the present carrier they are operating their first naval air forces with).  So the area have Russian naval bases and then the Ukrainian naval bases with their portion of the Black Sea fleet.  Presently several Ukrainian naval ships are being blockaded and ordered to surrender, but they haven't agreed to yet.
 
2014-03-19 04:44:44 PM  
@Flynn

It would have been better if the Yanakovitch government hadn't embezzled 70 Billion from Ukraine
It would have been better if Yanakovitch hadn't negotiated an agreement with both sides of the Ukranian government and uprising, and then run off to Russia the day after.

It would have been better for Russia, not to have to expend 170 Billion in currency reserves to stabilize the Ruble.
It would have been better for Russia, not to have their borrowing rate go from 5% to 7% in the international markets upon taking these actions/measures.

Ukraine is poor and needs IMF "help". (Yes I know that the IMF is not a helpful agency, its more of an Stick and bigger stick enforcement agency.)

Russia is also diminished in many economic aspects, Putin looks to be the foolish jerk, and now the Russian government has a new area where only 58% of the Crimean population, maybe, wanted to sort of go back to Russia, but it's probably really about 35-40% who really wanted to go back. This could go from Russian "control" to a new "Area of Resistance" as soon as those thousands of Russian troops are withdrawn. Finally, Russia now has to build all the infrastructure and subsidize Aeroflot's prices to get tourism back to Crimea in time to support what was already a moderate to poor situation in the first place.

Where is the winning in this series of events for anyone? It is just so dumb, at every level.
 
2014-03-19 04:52:16 PM  
Just a little bit of added information.

That "58% Russians" is from a census of 2001. A lot of Russians, while having Ukrainian ethnic roots, are still Russians in spirit and mentality, but self-identify as Ukrainian because it's kind of trendy, to trace down your ethnic roots. So of course they would call themselves "Ukrainians" for census; doesn't mean they are actually Ukrainians.

Same census determined 78% naming their native language Russian, 10% Ukrainian and 11% Tatars. Since 2001 demographics have changed - Russian percentage have grown through immigration (a lot of Russian military and fleet retire in Crimea), so we don't know actual present numbers.
 
2014-03-19 04:57:39 PM  
Now Turkey is claiming that since Crimea declared independence, by treaty is legally must revert to Turkish control, and they will blockade Russian access to the Strait of Bosporus.  There goes Russia's access to the Mediterranean .

I just can't see how they can possibly expect to come out of this thing ahead.
 
2014-03-19 05:08:32 PM  
I guess the strongly worded letters failed.
 
2014-03-19 05:22:14 PM  

udhq: Now Turkey is claiming that since Crimea declared independence, by treaty is legally must revert to Turkish control, and they will blockade Russian access to the Strait of Bosporus.  There goes Russia's access to the Mediterranean .

I just can't see how they can possibly expect to come out of this thing ahead.


I can't find jack shiat about it closing to Russia.
 
2014-03-19 06:10:22 PM  

Intrepid00: I can't find jack shiat about it closing to Russia.


There is a rumor from one of Turkish newspapers that if Russia will mistreat Tatars in Crimea, under Russian rule, then Turkey may even close the Bosphorus to Russian military and commercial ships.

It's just a rumor from one of newspapers, and only if Russia mistreats Tatars, not just captures Crimea or does anything in the rest of the Ukraine.
 
2014-03-19 07:54:20 PM  
Looks like the Ukrainians are ready to accept defeat in Crimea.
 
2014-03-19 07:56:12 PM  
So the Ukranian plan for handling this is to just surrender peacefully every time Russia makes a move.

Why even bother with the rhetoric?  Pull out and go home if you arent going to do your jobs, you giant farking pussies.
 
2014-03-19 09:08:38 PM  

smoky2010: SecretAgentWoman: That's a pretty pathetic military base if so easily overwhelmed.

They say that the Ukrainians are not fighting back on purpose. They are taking the high road, supposedly, waiting for a political solution.

I think it's time for them to start fighting back. Although it is really a lost cause as the Russians have better weapons, training, and numbers than the Ukrainians.


The Ukrainian military is actually pretty strong.

Their army is far better trained than Russia's. The size of their military is smaller than Russia's, but still significant..... especially when you consider that Russia's military is spread out, and can't be entirely consolidated, and that Ukraine's military would be defending their own territory.

If this turns into a full shooting war, Ukraine will get financial and material support from the West..... And that should be enough.

Russia is just not that strong anymore. Their military is mostly poorly trained conscripted soldiers.
 
2014-03-19 09:30:03 PM  

sethen320: Dumb question: What if they did get into a shooting war?  Would it really be WW3 or just another regional squabble?  Thoughts?


I would think that WW3 would not happen unless Russia started knocking over whole Governments with military force (Which would be awfully difficult if the West is propping up the Government they are attacking), or if the West invaded Russia..... which will never happen, they nave nukes.

I imagine that even if Russia continues to take over pieces of land, they will eventually wind up starting a shooting war.... And though that will be a huge headache for the West, I doubt that the West will need to go straight to WW3 in order to stop them there.
 
2014-03-20 05:23:30 AM  
Am I the only one that is wondering what the hell is going to happen with Chernobyl?
 
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