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(Spokesman Review)   Old and busted: politically-correct complaining about Native American sports team nicknames. Kickass solution: Native American sports team nickname in actual native tongue   (spokesman.com) divider line 71
    More: Cool, Spokane Indians, nicknames, mascots, Spokane, short season, baseball uniform, short programs, Rudy Peone  
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2543 clicks; posted to Sports » on 17 Mar 2014 at 9:24 PM (18 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-17 08:08:27 PM
As has been mentioned in these threads before, it's possible to have Native American-themed sports teams without being a racist dick. This looks like a pretty good example of the right way to do it.
 
2014-03-17 08:26:30 PM
The spick nigs?

THE SPICK NIGS!?

You realize they're just farking with us, right?
 
2014-03-17 08:28:43 PM
pbs.twimg.com

Or you could just change your team name,
and get a mascot that looks like Ernest Borgnine
 
2014-03-17 08:28:51 PM
Actually that curly q on the end is a bit ambiguous.

It could be the spick nips, not the spick nigs. Either way....
 
2014-03-17 08:52:56 PM
Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.
 
2014-03-17 08:55:27 PM

bearded clamorer: [pbs.twimg.com image 300x312]

Or you could just change your team name,
and get a mascot that looks like Ernest Borgnine


I don't think they changed the team name, just started using a random mascot that can be construed to be anything BUT racist.  At least it's better than a farking griffin for "Tribe."
 
2014-03-17 09:02:53 PM

bearded clamorer: [pbs.twimg.com image 300x312]

Or you could just change your team name,
and get a mascot that looks like Ernest Borgnine


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-03-17 09:04:49 PM
How would you pronounce that?
 
2014-03-17 09:35:00 PM
they obviously hate vowels.
 
2014-03-17 09:39:29 PM

Chris Ween: bearded clamorer: [pbs.twimg.com image 300x312]

Or you could just change your team name,
and get a mascot that looks like Ernest Borgnine


The Fightin' Borgnine.
 
2014-03-17 09:41:13 PM
As someone from Illinois who was an Indian (elementary), a warrior (middle), an Indian again (high school), an Illini (undergrad) and then a Warrior (grad), this seems like a pretty good idea.  As long as the represented groups are o.k. with it.  I'd be curious to see what all of the team names would look or sound like.

When I was a grad student at Marquette, they went through the process of changing the name from Warriors to something else.  I honestly can't remember what they changed it to, it was so banal.  "Warriors" was pretty generic though and I'm not even sure it referred to any one native group specifically, so changing it was for the best.

At both the U.of Illinois and Marquette, I remember hearing, "Oh no... the wealthy alumni will stop donating if we change our name!"  There comes a point when the school has to say, "O.k. then, we'll fill our coffers from donors who aren't manipulative, racist dick-bags."
 
2014-03-17 09:42:41 PM
I for one would dread playing the Tucson Tohono O'odham.   They always run single file so as to conceal their numbers.

/and now you know what Tohono O'odham means
 
2014-03-17 09:45:10 PM
Looks like a monkey got ahold of a typewriter and they just named their team the first thing that the monkey typed which resembled a word
 
2014-03-17 09:47:02 PM
We need to rename Indiana. It should be Native Americana.
 
2014-03-17 09:52:28 PM
o.onionstatic.com
 
2014-03-17 09:55:26 PM
Please press #3 for Navajo
 
2014-03-17 10:16:01 PM
Spaghettinos?
 
2014-03-17 10:31:01 PM
My team, Old Wasps, finds this amusing.

/now mow my lawn
 
2014-03-17 10:40:35 PM
Cool! We're going to have a team called the Kimosabes?

/ Fun fact: spell check corrected that to the "chemo zombies"
//Oh yeah... that's a band name
 
2014-03-17 10:40:58 PM
what is the benefit to writing the name out in Salish instead of English? are we just trying to make sure that nobody can read it?

that aside, good riddance to the old mascot
 
2014-03-17 10:47:49 PM
"Politically Correct" is just a pejorative for "respectful."
 
2014-03-17 10:54:52 PM
I'll say this, they genuinely seem to be trying their damnedest to do a wrong thing in the rightest possible way.

The thing is, if this professional and for-profit team genuinely wanted to be volunteer ambassadors for Native American culture--putting up signs in Salish, donating to schools, putting out educational materials, whatever--they could do that just as well as the Spokane... whatever. (What's Spokane known for? ...Lilacs? Really? Okay then, the Spokane Lilacs.)

They're only still the "Indians" because they're afraid they'll turn on their AM talk radio the day after they announce the change and hear professional shiat-stirrers call them PC coward wussy girls. So instead, they're  proving that they're cowards, by sticking to the name even as they try to distance themselves from what it means. This is only going to make it harder down the road, when having  any team called the "Indians" would be about as acceptable as a team called the "Negroes," but then cowards aren't known for their long-term strategic thinking.

But like I said, as cowardly PR goes, it's very nice and well-intentioned.
 
2014-03-17 11:13:03 PM

Robin Hoodie: what is the benefit to writing the name out in Salish instead of English? are we just trying to make sure that nobody can read it?


Because the sounds can't be represented in English, and a bastardized version wouldn't send the same message.

scottydoesntknow: How would you pronounce that?


The closest you could probably get without learning how to do the ejective consonants and final glottal stop would be to rhyme it with "picnic" and keep your throat closed on the final /c/.  (Note, though, that that's the word from which "Spokane" is derived.) The [p'], [q'], and [n'] are glottalized ejective consonants that don't really transliterate easily; you have to hear them to learn how to do them.  They're an SOB to do if you're not a native speaker of a language that uses them, although a lot of people use the [k'] to talk to dogs or babies. (Sort of like a "kikikiki" sound.)

doglover: Actually that curly q on the end is a bit ambiguous.


That's the glottal stop--the closed-throat pause between "uh" and "oh" in "uh-oh"  or the apostrophe in "Hawai'i."  Here it's word-final.

Dinobot: they obviously hate vowels.


The Salishan languages are famous for this, having a number of "vowelless" words.  Like (from the Wiki):

xłpxʷłtłpłłskʷc
[xɬpʼχʷɬtʰɬpʰɬːskʷʰtsʼ]
'he had had in his possession a bunchberry plant'

in which the lateral fricative [ɬ], a type of breathy /l/, serves as the syllable nucleus instead of a vowel.  In the case of the Spokane language, they're either using the glottalization of the ejectives or an epenthetic (unwritten, unstressed, and probably devoiced) vowel, probably a schwa ("uh"), as the syllable nuclei.  I'm not a Salishanist (?), so I'm not sure; I've worked with the Athabaskan languages, which have some of the similar characteristics.  I'm sure someone will be able to clear this up.
 
2014-03-17 11:29:32 PM
The first team they should play is the Fighting Whiteys
 
2014-03-17 11:36:52 PM

Smeggy Smurf: The first team they should play is the Fighting Whiteys


I wish I had the t-shirt concession.
 
2014-03-17 11:38:05 PM

GypsyJoker: Robin Hoodie: what is the benefit to writing the name out in Salish instead of English? are we just trying to make sure that nobody can read it?

Because the sounds can't be represented in English, and a bastardized version wouldn't send the same message.

scottydoesntknow: How would you pronounce that?

The closest you could probably get without learning how to do the ejective consonants and final glottal stop would be to rhyme it with "picnic" and keep your throat closed on the final /c/.  (Note, though, that that's the word from which "Spokane" is derived.) The [p'], [q'], and [n'] are glottalized ejective consonants that don't really transliterate easily; you have to hear them to learn how to do them.  They're an SOB to do if you're not a native speaker of a language that uses them, although a lot of people use the [k'] to talk to dogs or babies. (Sort of like a "kikikiki" sound.)

doglover: Actually that curly q on the end is a bit ambiguous.

That's the glottal stop--the closed-throat pause between "uh" and "oh" in "uh-oh"  or the apostrophe in "Hawai'i."  Here it's word-final.

Dinobot: they obviously hate vowels.

The Salishan languages are famous for this, having a number of "vowelless" words.  Like (from the Wiki):

xłpxʷłtłpłłskʷc
[xɬpʼχʷɬtʰɬpʰɬːskʷʰtsʼ]
'he had had in his possession a bunchberry plant'

in which the lateral fricative [ɬ], a type of breathy /l/, serves as the syllable nucleus instead of a vowel.  In the case of the Spokane language, they're either using the glottalization of the ejectives or an epenthetic (unwritten, unstressed, and probably devoiced) vowel, probably a schwa ("uh"), as the syllable nuclei.  I'm not a Salishanist (?), so I'm not sure; I've worked with the Athabaskan languages, which have some of the similar characteristics.  I'm sure someone will be able to clear this up.


Noam?
 
2014-03-17 11:44:48 PM
Even a word in a native language can be used pejoratively. The word for Polish man in Polish is polak.
 
2014-03-17 11:47:58 PM

Di Atribe: "Politically Correct" is just a pejorative for "respectful."


neutrality isn't respect
 
2014-03-17 11:57:24 PM
Por que tan serioso:  Noam?

Gaahh!

Hot potato, off his drawers, pluck to make amends!

/speaketh not that name in this house
 
2014-03-18 12:06:32 AM

desertmouse: At both the U.of Illinois and Marquette, I remember hearing, "Oh no... the wealthy alumni will stop donating if we change our name!" There comes a point when the school has to say, "O.k. then, we'll fill our coffers from donors who aren't manipulative, racist dick-bags."


Chief Illiniwek's outfit was made by local indigenous Americans - not Illini, because they all died.  Didn't stop the dick-bags board from getting rid of the Chief.
 
2014-03-18 12:09:56 AM

bhcompy: Di Atribe: "Politically Correct" is just a pejorative for "respectful."

neutrality isn't respect


Beats being disrespectful, though.
 
2014-03-18 12:33:31 AM

scottydoesntknow: How would you pronounce that?


My guess would be remarkably similar to Spokane.
 
2014-03-18 12:36:38 AM

2wolves: Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.


There's nothing wrong with intergration.
 
rka
2014-03-18 12:41:09 AM

Cagey B: As has been mentioned in these threads before, it's possible to have Native American-themed sports teams without being a racist dick. This looks like a pretty good example of the right way to do it.


It's possible, but when a sizable portion of the very people you claim to be honoring go "eh, that honoring thing, thanks but no thanks" then maybe you should think about going in another direction.

The world will not end if you're no longer allowed to "honor" an entire people by plastering their likeness and name on T-Shirts and 32oz plastic beer cups.
 
2014-03-18 01:12:23 AM
The hell it's a glottal stop, it's a p or a g, or possibly the "and" sign.
 
2014-03-18 01:20:59 AM

rka: Cagey B: As has been mentioned in these threads before, it's possible to have Native American-themed sports teams without being a racist dick. This looks like a pretty good example of the right way to do it.

It's possible, but when a sizable portion of the very people you claim to be honoring go "eh, that honoring thing, thanks but no thanks" then maybe you should think about going in another direction.

The world will not end if you're no longer allowed to "honor" an entire people by plastering their likeness and name on T-Shirts and 32oz plastic beer cups.


So what if the Greeks decide to be offended by all the Spartans and Trojans out there?  Or the Polish and Germans decide to not wish honor on the Lancers?
 
2014-03-18 01:24:48 AM

Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.

There's nothing wrong with intergration.


Genocide is now integration?
 
2014-03-18 01:43:29 AM
Posher l'Kesach

/TANNENBAUM!!
 
2014-03-18 01:44:24 AM
GypsyJoker:
in which the lateral fricative [ɬ], a type of breathy /l/, serves as the syllable nucleus instead of a vowel.  In the case of the Spokane language, they're either using the glottalization of the ejectives or an epenthetic (unwritten, unstressed, and probably devoiced) vowel, probably a schwa ("uh"), as the syllable nuclei.  I'm not a Salishanist (?), so I'm not sure; I've worked with the Athabaskan languages, which have some of the similar characteristics.  I'm sure someone will be able to clear this up.

Hey!  Hang around Fark long enough, and everyone gets to trot out their obscure expertise. Someone that knows Athabaskan languages?  I Dene see that coming. Tsá!

/I only know 'That buffalo is eating my pemmican!'
 
rka
2014-03-18 01:47:49 AM

bhcompy: rka: Cagey B: As has been mentioned in these threads before, it's possible to have Native American-themed sports teams without being a racist dick. This looks like a pretty good example of the right way to do it.

It's possible, but when a sizable portion of the very people you claim to be honoring go "eh, that honoring thing, thanks but no thanks" then maybe you should think about going in another direction.

The world will not end if you're no longer allowed to "honor" an entire people by plastering their likeness and name on T-Shirts and 32oz plastic beer cups.

So what if the Greeks decide to be offended by all the Spartans and Trojans out there?  Or the Polish and Germans decide to not wish honor on the Lancers?


I don't know, what of it?  Are you arguing against setting some sort of precedent?

"We can't stop offending one group of people because what happens if everyone wants to not be treated like a cartoon character!"

Yeah, that's a dangerously slippery slope we're treading here. Can't give those minorities an inch.
 
2014-03-18 02:05:08 AM

2wolves: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.

There's nothing wrong with intergration.

Genocide is now integration?


A language fading away and genocide are not the same thing.
What happened to the American Indians was not genocide. It was a series of unfortunate events. Genocide is a intentional wiping out of people
 
2014-03-18 02:10:37 AM

Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.

There's nothing wrong with intergration.

Genocide is now integration?

A language fading away and genocide are not the same thing.
What happened to the American Indians was not genocide. It was a series of unfortunate events. Genocide is a intentional wiping out of people



So all those Army guys just tripped and fell and their rifles went off in the Indians' faces? You been getting into the firewater?
 
2014-03-18 02:16:03 AM

Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.

There's nothing wrong with intergration.

Genocide is now integration?

A language fading away and genocide are not the same thing.
What happened to the American Indians was not genocide. It was a series of unfortunate events. Genocide is a intentional wiping out of people


Here, take this blanket, I made it just for you!
 
2014-03-18 02:16:40 AM

stoli n coke: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.

There's nothing wrong with intergration.

Genocide is now integration?

A language fading away and genocide are not the same thing.
What happened to the American Indians was not genocide. It was a series of unfortunate events. Genocide is a intentional wiping out of people


So all those Army guys just tripped and fell and their rifles went off in the Indians' faces? You been getting into the firewater?


Most of the Natives were dead long before Jamestown. Bacteria and virsuses are the true villans. Pick up 1491 or Guns,Germs and Steel. They really kill off the noble savage myth.
 
2014-03-18 02:20:41 AM

Mid_mo_mad_man: stoli n coke: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.

There's nothing wrong with intergration.

Genocide is now integration?

A language fading away and genocide are not the same thing.
What happened to the American Indians was not genocide. It was a series of unfortunate events. Genocide is a intentional wiping out of people


So all those Army guys just tripped and fell and their rifles went off in the Indians' faces? You been getting into the firewater?

Most of the Natives were dead long before Jamestown. Bacteria and virsuses are the true villans. Pick up 1491 or Guns,Germs and Steel. They really kill off the noble savage myth.



So the Indian wars of the 1800s didn't happen because bacteria and viruses already made a dent in it? Guess I really got hoodwinked going to that Trail of Tears memorial. I'd ask for my money back, but, well, you know.
 
2014-03-18 03:06:51 AM

stoli n coke: Mid_mo_mad_man: stoli n coke: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.

There's nothing wrong with intergration.

Genocide is now integration?

A language fading away and genocide are not the same thing.
What happened to the American Indians was not genocide. It was a series of unfortunate events. Genocide is a intentional wiping out of people


So all those Army guys just tripped and fell and their rifles went off in the Indians' faces? You been getting into the firewater?

Most of the Natives were dead long before Jamestown. Bacteria and virsuses are the true villans. Pick up 1491 or Guns,Germs and Steel. They really kill off the noble savage myth.


So the Indian wars of the 1800s didn't happen because bacteria and viruses already made a dent in it? Guess I really got hoodwinked going to that Trail of Tears memorial. I'd ask for my money back, but, well, you know.


With the Trail of Tears you did. Jackson was actually to save them by reducing chance for conflict .
 
2014-03-18 03:11:33 AM
i102.photobucket.com
/this thread heap big laugh
//heap crybabies
///heap
 
2014-03-18 04:58:10 AM
Speaking of native American tongues, I wonder what hers is like

www.iamsahar.com
 
2014-03-18 05:41:54 AM

Mid_mo_mad_man: stoli n coke: Mid_mo_mad_man: stoli n coke: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.

There's nothing wrong with intergration.

Genocide is now integration?

A language fading away and genocide are not the same thing.
What happened to the American Indians was not genocide. It was a series of unfortunate events. Genocide is a intentional wiping out of people


So all those Army guys just tripped and fell and their rifles went off in the Indians' faces? You been getting into the firewater?

Most of the Natives were dead long before Jamestown. Bacteria and virsuses are the true villans. Pick up 1491 or Guns,Germs and Steel. They really kill off the noble savage myth.


So the Indian wars of the 1800s didn't happen because bacteria and viruses already made a dent in it? Guess I really got hoodwinked going to that Trail of Tears memorial. I'd ask for my money back, but, well, you know.

With the Trail of Tears you did. Jackson was actually to save them by reducing chance for conflict .


He could have saved them by ensuring that their treaty was honored and calling out the soldiers to protect the borders of their land.  Remember, once it went to the supreme court, John Marshall ruled in favor of the cherokee maintaining their 53,000 acres.  However Andrew Jackson refused stating "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it."  He should have been impeached and thrown out of office for refusing to do his job.  He was an evil tyrannical man and a butcher, and the 20 dollar bill should be a constant reminder of our nation's occasional moral short-fallings.
 
2014-03-18 06:00:20 AM

ltr77: Mid_mo_mad_man: stoli n coke: Mid_mo_mad_man: stoli n coke: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Mid_mo_mad_man: 2wolves: Now consider for a moment all the languages lost because it was made illegal to teach them.

There's nothing wrong with intergration.

Genocide is now integration?

A language fading away and genocide are not the same thing.
What happened to the American Indians was not genocide. It was a series of unfortunate events. Genocide is a intentional wiping out of people


So all those Army guys just tripped and fell and their rifles went off in the Indians' faces? You been getting into the firewater?

Most of the Natives were dead long before Jamestown. Bacteria and virsuses are the true villans. Pick up 1491 or Guns,Germs and Steel. They really kill off the noble savage myth.


So the Indian wars of the 1800s didn't happen because bacteria and viruses already made a dent in it? Guess I really got hoodwinked going to that Trail of Tears memorial. I'd ask for my money back, but, well, you know.

With the Trail of Tears you did. Jackson was actually to save them by reducing chance for conflict .

He could have saved them by ensuring that their treaty was honored and calling out the soldiers to protect the borders of their land.  Remember, once it went to the supreme court, John Marshall ruled in favor of the cherokee maintaining their 53,000 acres.  However Andrew Jackson refused stating "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it."  He should have been impeached and thrown out of office for refusing to do his job.  He was an evil tyrannical man and a butcher, and the 20 dollar bill should be a constant reminder of our nation's occasional moral short-fallings.


The Cherokee had no right to sue the USA in US court. Marhsall's ruling was unconstitutional. So fark him. Jackson's job was to defend the country not apease natives.
 
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