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(Slate)   Yo, dawg, I heard you like jets, so I took your Malaysian jet and put it inside another jet   (slate.com) divider line 133
    More: Strange, Malaysia Flight, Malaysia, Singapore Airlines, flights, test pilots  
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18023 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2014 at 7:01 PM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



133 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-03-17 08:06:36 PM  

Theaetetus: For reference, with a pulse with of 1 microsecond, radar can't detect targets separated by less than 150m... The mandated separation for a heavy plane (777) following another heavy plane is 4 nautical miles due to wake turbulence. Now, you can get closer, but less than 150m? And stay there for an hour while you fly over India?


Nice try, Lao Che
 
2014-03-17 08:07:15 PM  

usafdave: Ivan used to pull that shiat all the time.  At least in the movies.

"Goose, you see a trailer?"
"Negative Merlin... looks like he's a single."

/sneaky farking Russians


starsmedia.ign.com

Wrong, make that five!
There's five, sir.


/Negative Ghost Rider, the pattern is full
 
2014-03-17 08:16:04 PM  
i1207.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-17 08:16:54 PM  
Why don't they just check the black box on this thing and be done with it???

/Ducks
//Covers
///Runs away giggling
 
2014-03-17 08:17:53 PM  
The NTSB concludes that future plane-following-plane hijinks can be prevented by the use of side mirrors.
 
2014-03-17 08:27:32 PM  
So it's like that one scene in Down Periscope?
 
2014-03-17 08:35:18 PM  

exboyracer: What if the other plane was a bizjet flown by someone you knew - he flies a flight plan you go dark you join in formation over the ocean and fly across India to one of the 'stan countries.

Or hey I am betting you can reconfigure the transponder with a tail number say from a G5 in south america or one that is being painted or in for maint.  You file a flight plan inflight as BillyBob's G5 leaving the Andaman islands across India to one of the 'stans. If the tail number can't be changed from the transponder interface, you buy one like Boeing is using.  Config the transponder with the new tail number and swap the bogus transponder at the proper time.  I believe that most avionics are serviceable from the front side so a swap should not take long.  There you go now you are BillyBobs G5 - it is night - you are only a blip and a voice.  Certainly there is an abandoned strip - it would only have to be 5000' or so long. There are all kinds of sources for used avionics, Trade-A-Plan even Ebay and Amazon (free shippin)

Then it could be aliens.


FYI .. the transponder is set by the pilot or copilot with a 4 digit code that ATC gives you, it's not in any way tied to the specific aircraft.
 
2014-03-17 08:39:43 PM  
You know what? I give up on this thing. Malaysia isn't helping at all. More stupid theory comes out every day. I quit! I'll wait until something concrete comes out about this. Hopefully it will be within the next 20 years or so.
 
2014-03-17 08:46:14 PM  
They did something like this in Reamde.
 
2014-03-17 08:47:05 PM  

fenian-: [www.theforce.net image 850x476]


Best theory yet.
 
2014-03-17 08:47:48 PM  

Theaetetus: As I said, it's theoretically possible for a few radar sweeps, from a single radar station. But for two hours while it flies over India towards Afghanistan or something, with lots of different radar stations at different angles to the flight path, including high resolution military radar as you get close to the Pakistani border? Not unless the planes were just about physically touching at that point.


Primary radar, even military primary radar, has lots of noise in the signal.  Two blips from a known transponder shown on the secondary radar isn't going to be noticed.

Flying a loose formation at 150m is not hard, even in a big jet.  Match the power settings of the lead jet, and you can sit behind him all day.  Fly just slightly above the lead jet and the wake turbulence isn't an issue.  Once you match power settings and are in position, it isn't too tough to fly a loose formation.  And yes, even in a big jet, 150m is a loose formation.

I fly formation in dis-similar aircraft.  The hardest part is the join up and not running over the lead when I was in the faster plane and flying slot.  Given that MH370 supposedly shadowed another 777, the speeds would match so the join up is the only challenge, and its a big one given that the planes were on completely different flight paths.  When I've flown formation, we've all left the same airport together, and still catching the lead plane often requires them to fly slowly while the last planes catch up.
 
2014-03-17 08:48:06 PM  
This would explain climbing above the service ceiling of the 777 to 45,000'   This extra altitude could be traded for speed to catch up with the SIA68 flight in just a few minutes as opposed to changing relative mach which would take some time to possible catch the SIA flight.
 
2014-03-17 08:48:12 PM  
As unlikely as the scenario is, the captain was a military instructor pilot.  If anyone could pull it off, he's the guy.
 
2014-03-17 08:49:08 PM  
Yeah, nice try. It's a novel by Steve Martini.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Rule-Nine-Madriani-Novels-ebook/dp/B003M69 KZ K/ref=pd_sim_kstore_12?ie=UTF8&refRID=04AHY1NDYX6WDW6JR0EB

In the story, a terrorist hijacks a plane just this exact way to drop a hyperbaric bomb on the Supreme Court.

Try to be at least original with your conspiracy theories.
 
2014-03-17 08:50:55 PM  

big pig peaches: Why are the pilots even able to turn off the transponders?


Because that is how the system is designed.
You do

exboyracer: Or hey I am betting you can reconfigure the transponder with a tail number say from a G5 in south america or one that is being painted or in for maint.  You file a flight plan inflight as BillyBob's G5 leaving the Andaman islands across India to one of the 'stans. If the tail number can't be changed from the transponder interface, you buy one like Boeing is using.  Config the transponder with the new tail number and swap the bogus transponder at the proper time.  I believe that most avionics are serviceable from the front side so a swap should not take long.  There you go now you are BillyBobs G5 - it is night - you are only a blip and a voice.  Certainly there is an abandoned strip - it would only have to be 5000' or so long. There are all kinds of sources for used avionics, Trade-A-Plan even Ebay and Amazon (free shippin)


Wow, don't have a clue how the system works eh Bucky?
 
2014-03-17 08:51:46 PM  
Gee this would be a bad time for Photoshoppers to find hiding places.
 
2014-03-17 08:51:55 PM  

petec: exboyracer: What if the other plane was a bizjet flown by someone you knew - he flies a flight plan you go dark you join in formation over the ocean and fly across India to one of the 'stan countries.

Or hey I am betting you can reconfigure the transponder with a tail number say from a G5 in south america or one that is being painted or in for maint.  You file a flight plan inflight as BillyBob's G5 leaving the Andaman islands across India to one of the 'stans. If the tail number can't be changed from the transponder interface, you buy one like Boeing is using.  Config the transponder with the new tail number and swap the bogus transponder at the proper time.  I believe that most avionics are serviceable from the front side so a swap should not take long.  There you go now you are BillyBobs G5 - it is night - you are only a blip and a voice.  Certainly there is an abandoned strip - it would only have to be 5000' or so long. There are all kinds of sources for used avionics, Trade-A-Plan even Ebay and Amazon (free shippin)

Then it could be aliens.

FYI .. the transponder is set by the pilot or copilot with a 4 digit code that ATC gives you, it's not in any way tied to the specific aircraft.


Mode S has an individual code per aircraft that is sent in addition to the 4-digit code dialed in by the pilot.  But Mode S codes can be changed by any avionics technician since they are assigned to an aircraft and if the transponder needs to be replaced, they need to be able to program the code for that aircraft into the new transponder,
 
2014-03-17 08:52:56 PM  

Zazie_in_SFO: This would explain climbing above the service ceiling of the 777 to 45,000'   This extra altitude could be traded for speed to catch up with the SIA68 flight in just a few minutes as opposed to changing relative mach which would take some time to possible catch the SIA flight.


It doesn't work that way.  The speed lost in the climb would put it further behind.
 
2014-03-17 08:53:29 PM  
img15.imageshack.us
 
2014-03-17 08:54:46 PM  
Screw it.  Time to drop a couple of these babies in the Indian Ocean and achieve maximum trolling status...

images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-03-17 09:06:06 PM  
That's the key to all our stealth technology, no transponders!

/the facepalm, it burns
 
2014-03-17 09:16:36 PM  

Zazie_in_SFO: This extra altitude could be traded for speed to catch up with the SIA68 flight


clear_prop: Zazie_in_SFO:  It doesn't work that way.  The speed lost in the climb would put it further behind.


Beautiful.
 
2014-03-17 09:18:32 PM  

calbert: that's definitely the dumbest headline for the linked-to story.

story makes no such claims as to "putting a jet inside another jet"


www.freakingnews.com
 
2014-03-17 09:19:36 PM  
www.wearysloth.com

Not if you stay in his baffles, Sea-man Beaumont, not if you stay in his baffles.  Come up right behind his propeller engines and he'll be as deaf as a post.
 
2014-03-17 09:26:28 PM  

iron_city_ap: That's the key to all our stealth technology, no transponders!

/the facepalm, it burns


If i was a betting man, I'd guess 40-year-old broken-down soviet-era equipment, poor operator training, ineffective procedures, and a grossly inept command chain probably had something to do with it as well.
 
2014-03-17 09:29:18 PM  

ongbok: Agatha Crispy: ongbok:  And before you say that is ridiculous, look at how incompetent this whole thing has been handled by the Malaysians so far. There have been a few times that some official has run to the cameras to declare some new development and it turned out to be completely wrong or some information that the investigators later deny. And if this happened with the radar blip, I think they are to embarrassed to admit it was a mistake.

Really wish you teabaggers would let Benghazi drop already

What the hell does that have to do with Benghazi?


Sorry - I read how you said how incompetently the situation was being handled, how officials were running to cameras to declare untruths, and how they were too embarrassed to admit it was a mistake and missed the Malaysian part.
 
2014-03-17 09:38:40 PM  

clear_prop: I fly formation in dis-similar aircraft.  The hardest part is the join up and not running over the lead when I was in the faster plane and flying slot.  Given that MH370 supposedly shadowed another 777, the speeds would match so the join up is the only challenge, and its a big one given that the planes were on completely different flight paths.  When I've flown formation, we've all left the same airport together, and still catching the lead plane often requires them to fly slowly while the last planes catch up.


All my experience in formation flying has been in the same type of aircraft as my lead or wing, but I think an airliner in cruise doing pretty much the worst thing (straight, level and fast) a lead could do for the wing to join up short of actually maneuvering to avoid him. Without a bunch of excess speed available, that's going to be a long, slow process.

That said, if you could get there this becomes a more plausible hypothesis than some others floating around.
 
2014-03-17 09:49:24 PM  

fusillade762: Gecko Gingrich: Scooby Doo and The Spooky Case of the Grand Prix Race or Moonraker fan?

My mind went to Bond, too. Different movie, though.

[iansadler.files.wordpress.com image 850x426]


Yeah my mind went to bond to, but an even different movie..

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-03-17 09:51:12 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Gecko Gingrich: Scooby Doo and The Spooky Case of the Grand Prix Race or Moonraker fan?

I thought of "You Only Live Twice"

[www.bigflax.com image 600x342]


Curses!
 
2014-03-17 09:51:43 PM  

StopLurkListen: What's an "aviation enthusiast"?

Someone who buys aviations?


[citadellegin.com image 850x214]
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 850x1064]
[farm4.staticflickr.com image 850x1136]


What's an outdoor enthusiast?

Someone who buys outdoors?

i141.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-17 09:58:27 PM  

trappedspirit: StopLurkListen: What's an "aviation enthusiast"?

Someone who buys aviations?


[citadellegin.com image 850x214]
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 850x1064]
[farm4.staticflickr.com image 850x1136]

What's an outdoor enthusiast?

Someone who buys outdoors?

[i141.photobucket.com image 599x491]


It's a whale
 
2014-03-17 10:00:26 PM  
When a Farker suggested it days ago, I said it was the stupidest theory ever.

If you could get close enough behind to hide on radar, you'd be riding in a wake of low pressure air. It causes planes to fall right out of the sky.

Why don't the people who suggest this suggest flying above or below the other plane? No dangerous turbulence, and you don't show up on radar? (Well I'm not sure about newer radar)
 
2014-03-17 10:00:42 PM  

trappedspirit: StopLurkListen: What's an "aviation enthusiast"?

Someone who buys aviations?


[citadellegin.com image 850x214]
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 850x1064]
[farm4.staticflickr.com image 850x1136]

What's an outdoor enthusiast?

Someone who buys outdoors?

[i141.photobucket.com image 599x491]


trappedspirit: StopLurkListen: What's an "aviation enthusiast"?

Someone who buys aviations?


[citadellegin.com image 850x214]
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 850x1064]
[farm4.staticflickr.com image 850x1136]

What's an outdoor enthusiast?

Someone who buys outdoors?

[i141.photobucket.com image 599x491]


Your plane is over 700 feet long.
 
2014-03-17 10:01:05 PM  

petec: exboyracer: What if the other plane was a bizjet flown by someone you knew - he flies a flight plan you go dark you join in formation over the ocean and fly across India to one of the 'stan countries.

Or hey I am betting you can reconfigure the transponder with a tail number say from a G5 in south america or one that is being painted or in for maint.  You file a flight plan inflight as BillyBob's G5 leaving the Andaman islands across India to one of the 'stans. If the tail number can't be changed from the transponder interface, you buy one like Boeing is using.  Config the transponder with the new tail number and swap the bogus transponder at the proper time.  I believe that most avionics are serviceable from the front side so a swap should not take long.  There you go now you are BillyBobs G5 - it is night - you are only a blip and a voice.  Certainly there is an abandoned strip - it would only have to be 5000' or so long. There are all kinds of sources for used avionics, Trade-A-Plan even Ebay and Amazon (free shippin)

Then it could be aliens.

FYI .. the transponder is set by the pilot or copilot with a 4 digit code that ATC gives you, it's not in any way tied to the specific aircraft.


That is a code that atc asks you to squawk -- My 1969 c-150 did only that - newer Mode S transponders transmit call sign.

FYI
 
2014-03-17 10:08:09 PM  

trappedspirit: StopLurkListen: What's an "aviation enthusiast"?

Someone who buys aviations?


[citadellegin.com image 850x214]
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 850x1064]
[farm4.staticflickr.com image 850x1136]

What's an outdoor enthusiast?

Someone who buys outdoors?


I can answer this: those of us who would rather be outside enjoying nature are called "outdoor enthusiasts", while those who prefer air conditioning and couches and TV are considered "normal".
 
2014-03-17 10:10:18 PM  

trappedspirit: StopLurkListen: What's an "aviation enthusiast"?

Someone who buys aviations?


[citadellegin.com image 850x214]
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 850x1064]
[farm4.staticflickr.com image 850x1136]

What's an outdoor enthusiast?

Someone who buys outdoors?


I just noticed the underwater plane in your picture, lol. What is circles in red? Can't see anything.
 
2014-03-17 10:11:04 PM  

nekom: It's not the dumbest theory I've heard.


The only dumber one I've heard is that the plane was hit by a meteor.
 
2014-03-17 10:15:35 PM  
They also did something like this with fighter jets in Debt of Honor by Tom Clancy.

Although, the Boeing 777-200ER has a wingspan of 199 ft. 11 in. and a length of 209 ft. 1 in. For comparison, a B-52 Stratofortress heavy strategic bomber has a wingspan of 185 ft. 0 in., and a length of 159 ft. 4 in. A Tupolev Tu-160 Blackjack heavy strategic bomber has a wingspan of 189 ft. 9 in. (20 deg. sweep), and a length of 177 ft. 6 in.

Point being, the 777 is the size of aircraft that nuclear-armed states such as India and Pakistan would probably be twitchy about if one should suddenly show up on their radar screens without a broadcasting transponder.
 
2014-03-17 10:19:21 PM  
I'm thinking one of the pilots incapacitated the other one something in his drink maybe i don't know.  He then turned the plane flew across Malaysia avoiding radar turned north to avoid Indonesian radar.  he then turned it south flew out to the middle of the Indian Ocean and crashed the plane, pilot suicide.  He can explain the the changes of direction by saying we got turbulence up ahead have to make some flight plan adjustments or whatever, I mean is anyone really going to question the captain.  Also it was the middle of the night so not like people could see much outside the window if they were even awake.  By the time anyone noticed anything was up when the sun can up and they were in the middle of the ocean they cant call anyone because I doubt that there is much cell service in the middle of the Indian Ocean.  As for why he wouldn't just crash on the normal flight path, if they cant find the plane they can't prove that he crashed the thing.
 
2014-03-17 10:35:01 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-03-17 10:37:28 PM  

slykens1: Theaetetus: For reference, with a pulse with of 1 microsecond, radar can't detect targets separated by less than 150m... The mandated separation for a heavy plane (777) following another heavy plane is 4 nautical miles due to wake turbulence. Now, you can get closer, but less than 150m? And stay there for an hour while you fly over India?

Let's pretend for a moment that MH370 was 500 feet below and 500 feet behind - a total of about 215 m away tail to nose. This should be far enough below to be out of wake turbulence at that range and far enough behind to maintain track visually through the cockpit windows (together with knowing the filed flight plan and listening to ATC conversation).

Let's then also pretend you're a bored radar operator in a third world country in the middle of the night. Do you think you'd really care (or even be able to notice, depending on age of the equipment) that the radar return from a flight that is *supposed* to be there is twice the size it should be - a return accompanied by a transponder response tied to a large aircraft to begin with?

The Malaysians apparently didn't care at the time that MH370 flew back across the country and it *wasn't* supposed to be there. If this is what happened I doubt anyone in the region could either detect the separate aircraft or care if they did at the time they did.

This theory is as good as any other at this point. The only theories I don't put much into are the ones where the plane just drops out of the sky - and that's probably my bias based on the 777's illustrious history.


The 777 does indeed have an excellent safety record, but it's getting on a bit now. Could MH370 be the first incident related to this warning?

Months before Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 mysteriously vanished, US regulators warned of a "cracking and corrosion" problem on Boeing 777s that could lead to a mid-air break-up and drastic drop in cabin pressure.

The revelation comes amid a desperate search for traces of the plane with 239 people on board, which lost contact with air traffic control early on Saturday, about an hour after take-off from Kuala Lumpur en route to Beijing.

"We are issuing this AD (Airworthiness Directive) to detect and correct cracking and corrosion in the fuselage skin, which could lead to rapid decompression and loss of structural integrity of the airplane," the Federal Aviation Administration said.

From here:http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/03/13/us-regulators-warn ed-pro blems-777s
 
2014-03-17 10:46:35 PM  

Theaetetus: I was talking about the difficulty of following the other plane at less than 150m with your stick shaking all over the place because of jetwash.


RIP Goose.
 
2014-03-17 11:09:33 PM  

Theaetetus: For reference, with a pulse with of 1 microsecond, radar can't detect targets separated by less than 150m... The mandated separation for a heavy plane (777) following another heavy plane is 4 nautical miles due to wake turbulence. Now, you can get closer, but less than 150m? And stay there for an hour while you fly over India?


You could avoid wake turbulence by flying slightly higher nose to vstab top or similar. The wake vortices tend to trail downward
 
2014-03-17 11:10:43 PM  

big pig peaches: Why are the pilots even able to turn off the transponders?


So Mikael Baryshnikov can sneak in?
 
2014-03-17 11:11:14 PM  
Is there a comprehensive list of the passenger/crew list bios all in one location? For whatever reason, I could find stuff on pretty much everyone but the Ukranians.
 
2014-03-17 11:16:51 PM  
As I have very little knowledge of aviation, I am uniquely qualified to propose a possible explanation..

I'm not saying it was aliens... but...

cache.spreadshirt.com
 
2014-03-17 11:22:02 PM  

clear_prop: Zazie_in_SFO: This would explain climbing above the service ceiling of the 777 to 45,000'   This extra altitude could be traded for speed to catch up with the SIA68 flight in just a few minutes as opposed to changing relative mach which would take some time to possible catch the SIA flight.

It doesn't work that way.  The speed lost in the climb would put it further behind.


Just to be argumentative, what if you knew that there would be  some plane on that flight path that you want to intercept, but you're not sure when? Then you might take the extra altitude and wait until you spot your target, then dive to catch up.
 
2014-03-17 11:27:30 PM  

C18H27NO3: Your plane is over 700 feet long.


Actually, that scale is probably only good for sea level.  Since this is clearly submerged that would mean leon is even larger.
 
2014-03-17 11:40:20 PM  

JPINFV: So it's like that one scene in Down Periscope?


galeri5.uludagsozluk.com

This one?
 
2014-03-17 11:47:14 PM  

Theaetetus: Just to be argumentative, what if you knew that there would be  some plane on that flight path that you want to intercept, but you're not sure when? Then you might take the extra altitude and wait until you spot your target, then dive to catch up.


The problem is that you can't slow down much altitude to wait for a plane to come by because of the coffin corner.  Slow down and stall, or keep your speed and you are going about the same speed as the plane you are waiting for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_corner_(aviation)

You could do S-turns across the airway waiting for the other plane to catch up, but even then, if you are aiming the wrong way as the plane comes by, good luck catching them.  Fighter jets can intercept because they have thrust/speed to spare.  Commercial jets not so much.
 
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