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(Washington Post)   Labor union protesting outside of a car dealership makes the critical error of underestimating a car dealer's lack of shame and eagerness for publicity   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 149
    More: Amusing, Forever Knight, Eugene Volokh, First Amendment Amicus Brief Clinic, movie franchise, unions, Kozinski, UCLA School of Law, zeal  
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16719 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2014 at 12:30 PM (19 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-17 02:07:01 PM

jso2897: IrishBlunder: Latinwolf: Gulper Eel: I'm waiting for the union that brings the ten-foot-tall inflatable rat to its protests to be greeted by a chamber-of-commerce group with a fifty-foot-tall inflatable cat.

Isn't that like a NYC only thing or do they use similar rats elsewhere?

Philadelphia.
And they also have a big-ass "fat-cat" too.  Looks kinda like the top-hat Monopoly guy only with diamond rings on his paws.

Unions are, generally speaking, a good thing.
Union bosses OTOH, are usually self-serving (failed) politicians and lawyers that manipulate its members into voting for whomever the biggest payoffs (not necessarily cash - civil contracts, political favors, etc.) come from.  Can't much speak to organized crime and the like, but don't much see how labor unions would be any more immune to it than any other organization that handles large amounts of cash.  Seeing as keeping corruption out of politics is nigh impossible, don't see how unions would be expected to maintain a higher standard.

You're right - but that isn't the point. there are bad unions, and sometimes unions suck. but not nearlty as much as this country would suck for working people without them. People get caught up in fashionable attitudes that they don't really think about the implications of. None of the assholes you see in here bashing unions would have shiat if they had never existed.


The covered wagon was useful at one point in time. Doesn't mean we still need it
 
2014-03-17 02:08:56 PM
Watched this again a couple weeks ago.

img.fark.net

Not sure how relevant it is here, but just thought I'd mention it.

Fun movie. Very 80s.
 
2014-03-17 02:10:44 PM

mbillips: That Guy Jeff: ifky: mbillips: What labor union covers workers at car dealerships? Is there a mechanic's union? Maybe the cleaning company is unionized?

Looks like the building in the back is being built or remodeled. I'm guessing they used a non union contractor to do the work.

What an incredible travesty, someone actually hiring whoever they want to do perform work instead of going through a specific organization, like they live in a free country or something.

(there's a reason everyone hates unions now)

Scab!

/Only thing I hate about unions is that they don't have open membership. In states with closed shops, you have to know a guy to get a union card, and without a union card you can't get hired in a closed shop. Union membership should be automatic, not a prerequisite.
//A lot of unions are more concerned with preserving their members' high pay than expanding. I worked in newspapers for 10 years, and never heard of a single Newspaper Guild attempt at organizing a paper that wasn't already organized.
///The only way for workers to get anything close to a fair shake from jerb creators is to organize. There's just too much power on the employer's side for it to be a fair contract otherwise.


This. When I was having my house redone, I made sure to hire a non-union shop even though it was a little more expensive just as a fark-you to their closed-shop cronyism.
 
2014-03-17 02:12:15 PM

AgentPothead: Unions aren't ever the problem. The problem, and this is pretty much a 100% of the time given, is people. People have ruined every single thing they've ever touched. And yet you keep reproducing like bacteria.


So kill yourself.
 
2014-03-17 02:15:33 PM
Heh...we had some of those protestors out by my old work once. Same type,size,color of sign and everything. The building was getting renovated so they were protesting that but they were out front of our little store. My boss went out to talk to them one day. Yep hired guns. They had no idea what they were protesting or why but were just doing what they were told. They were nice so we didn't mind as long as they didn't block our entrance. And then as soon as the construction was over they packed up and moved on to the next location.
 
2014-03-17 02:19:20 PM

PIP_the_TROLL: Watched this again a couple weeks ago.

[img.fark.net image 500x758]

Not sure how relevant it is here, but just thought I'd mention it.

Fun movie. Very 80s.


Yeah, it's amusing. I hope you followed it up with Mr. Mom. Those two movies make for a great Michael Keaton double feature.
 
2014-03-17 02:19:32 PM

PIP_the_TROLL: Watched this again a couple weeks ago.

[img.fark.net image 500x758]

Not sure how relevant it is here, but just thought I'd mention it.

Fun movie. Very 80s.


"We piss for accuracy."
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-03-17 02:33:28 PM
mbillips

There have been attempts to unionize car salesmen. I remember reading a court case that followed such an attempt. Salesmen didn't want to work Sundays. Union came in and said, vote to join us and you'll never have to work Sundays again. Before the vote the dealer gave them Sundays off. Unionization vote failed. Dealer got hit with an unfair labor practice charge for giving employees what they wanted.
 
2014-03-17 02:33:35 PM

mbillips: /Only thing I hate about unions is that they don't have open membership. In states with closed shops, you have to know a guy to get a union card, and without a union card you can't get hired in a closed shop


Ah, so Unions are like Guilds:  an unnecessary farce creating a drain on the economy by rent-seeking behavior to the detriment of the general consumer, shrinking the number of available jobs but making those jobs more lucrative.
 
2014-03-17 02:40:49 PM

bluefoxicy: mbillips: /Only thing I hate about unions is that they don't have open membership. In states with closed shops, you have to know a guy to get a union card, and without a union card you can't get hired in a closed shop

Ah, so Unions are like Guilds:  an unnecessary farce creating a drain on the economy by rent-seeking behavior to the detriment of the general consumer, shrinking the number of available jobs but making those jobs more lucrative.


Talk about an old talking point.  Closed union shops have been illegal in the US since 1947.
 
2014-03-17 02:48:37 PM

Satanic_Hamster: Heh, that's awesome.   Like how they matched up the font and colors.


The sign maker's union got to use up the leftover material and make money on another sale.  Double win.
 
2014-03-17 02:54:24 PM
Some men are born marketing geniuses...

bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com
 
2014-03-17 02:55:17 PM

ReverendJynxed: Some men are born marketing geniuses...

[bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com image 300x282]


Tell you what:  if nobody comes down and buys a car from me in the next fifteen minutes, I'm gonna club this baby seal!!!
 
2014-03-17 03:01:33 PM

rkiller1: mongbiohazard: currently nearly unchecked power of business

There are several local, state and federal agencies publishing thousands of pages of regulations that disagree with you.


l2.yimg.com
 
2014-03-17 03:33:13 PM

ReverendJynxed: Some men are born marketing geniuses...

[bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com image 300x282]


As amusing as his commercials were, the fine-print of the ads was horrifying.

"You can have this brand new Dodge Durango for just $119 a month!"
"$14000 due at signing, remainder financed over 96 months."
 
2014-03-17 03:40:12 PM

jso2897: IrishBlunder: Latinwolf: Gulper Eel: I'm waiting for the union that brings the ten-foot-tall inflatable rat to its protests to be greeted by a chamber-of-commerce group with a fifty-foot-tall inflatable cat.

Isn't that like a NYC only thing or do they use similar rats elsewhere?

Philadelphia.
And they also have a big-ass "fat-cat" too.  Looks kinda like the top-hat Monopoly guy only with diamond rings on his paws.

Unions are, generally speaking, a good thing.
Union bosses OTOH, are usually self-serving (failed) politicians and lawyers that manipulate its members into voting for whomever the biggest payoffs (not necessarily cash - civil contracts, political favors, etc.) come from.  Can't much speak to organized crime and the like, but don't much see how labor unions would be any more immune to it than any other organization that handles large amounts of cash.  Seeing as keeping corruption out of politics is nigh impossible, don't see how unions would be expected to maintain a higher standard.

You're right - but that isn't the point. there are bad unions, and sometimes unions suck. but not nearlty as much as this country would suck for working people without them.


Hence my axiomatic "Unions are a good thing".  I'm a dues-paying member of one myself.

People get caught up in fashionable attitudes that they don't really think about the implications of. None of the assholes you see in here bashing unions would have shiat if they had never existed.

Oh, dunno about that.  There has to be at least a *few* farkers of aristocratic origin.
One might even say that were it not for unions, the aristocratic farkers would probably be the only ones.  Making oh-so insensitive headlines like "Uppity laborers light owner of sweat shop on fire - just kidding, the police shot all the workers LOL".

Here's the thing - oftentimes, calling "shenanigans" on one union will get you a (perhaps undeserved) reputation as a "union basher" whether or not the accusation is justified.  The Ironworkers local here just got hosed by a federal indictment - for some of the selfsame reasons folks are bemoaning in this thread.   Having nothing to do with anything, when Islamic terrorists blow shiat up I hear folks cry out "Where are the 'religion of peace' Islamists condemning this action!?"  As pretty much the entire officer staff of the Ironworkers got trundled off to court, I can say I hear precious little from the politicians and other labor union members here in Philly.  That sort of level intimidation is something that even I find unacceptable.

So yes, history makes unions a good thing.   Current events...not so much.  Unions have their flaws (..as does pretty much any human endeavor) so don't let's put that shining halo on them - criticism will hopefully, in time, bring positive change.
 
2014-03-17 03:45:34 PM

IrishBlunder: jso2897: IrishBlunder: Latinwolf: Gulper Eel: I'm waiting for the union that brings the ten-foot-tall inflatable rat to its protests to be greeted by a chamber-of-commerce group with a fifty-foot-tall inflatable cat.

Isn't that like a NYC only thing or do they use similar rats elsewhere?

Philadelphia.
And they also have a big-ass "fat-cat" too.  Looks kinda like the top-hat Monopoly guy only with diamond rings on his paws.

Unions are, generally speaking, a good thing.
Union bosses OTOH, are usually self-serving (failed) politicians and lawyers that manipulate its members into voting for whomever the biggest payoffs (not necessarily cash - civil contracts, political favors, etc.) come from.  Can't much speak to organized crime and the like, but don't much see how labor unions would be any more immune to it than any other organization that handles large amounts of cash.  Seeing as keeping corruption out of politics is nigh impossible, don't see how unions would be expected to maintain a higher standard.

You're right - but that isn't the point. there are bad unions, and sometimes unions suck. but not nearlty as much as this country would suck for working people without them.

Hence my axiomatic "Unions are a good thing".  I'm a dues-paying member of one myself.

People get caught up in fashionable attitudes that they don't really think about the implications of. None of the assholes you see in here bashing unions would have shiat if they had never existed.

Oh, dunno about that.  There has to be at least a *few* farkers of aristocratic origin.
One might even say that were it not for unions, the aristocratic farkers would probably be the only ones.  Making oh-so insensitive headlines like "Uppity laborers light owner of sweat shop on fire - just kidding, the police shot all the workers LOL".

Here's the thing - oftentimes, calling "shenanigans" on one union will get you a (perhaps undeserved) reputation as a "union basher" whether or not the accusation is justified. ...


Do you support the change to the Pennsylvania harassment law so unions have to follow the same rules as everybody else?
 
2014-03-17 03:56:36 PM

bluefoxicy: ReverendJynxed: Some men are born marketing geniuses...

[bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com image 300x282]

Tell you what:  if nobody comes down and buys a car from me in the next fifteen minutes, I'm gonna club this baby seal!!!


i.imgur.com
 
2014-03-17 04:28:37 PM
I think the biggest problem I have with unions is the ones that have people in high positions that have never done what the union represents. But with the way things are going organized labor could make a comeback if they get their shiat together.

I used to work at a printing plant it was a small company that was a mom and pop operation that grew to about 500 people. This one idiot that was on the verge of being fired was trying to get a union in there to save him. It didnt work and he got fired for being drunk on the job.
 
2014-03-17 04:30:09 PM
csb:

My dad is a union labour representative.  He took me out to take pictures while he picketed with what I believe were employees involved in the assembly of BMW cars, but we picketed in front of a BMW dealership (because the public wouldn't see us at a BMW factory).  After a few minutes, the manager came out, and at the end of a heated argument, he said to my dad; "And who's the knob with the camera?"  To which my dad calmly replied, "That, sir, is my son".
 
2014-03-17 04:32:41 PM
But as much respect as I have for unions, my own father, a union rep for over 30 years, has been unable to answer one question for me:  Why can't we have a union without union dues?  If the only legitimate argument against unions is that some of them might just want nothing but to take your hard earned money for union dues, then why don't we show them that we can run a union without dues?  After all, weren't the first unions just a collection of people that said "If you're going to treat us like pack mules and pay us the least you can get away with, then we're going to show you how essential we are to your business by striking"?
 
2014-03-17 04:37:36 PM

moeburn: But as much respect as I have for unions, my own father, a union rep for over 30 years, has been unable to answer one question for me:  Why can't we have a union without union dues?  If the only legitimate argument against unions is that some of them might just want nothing but to take your hard earned money for union dues, then why don't we show them that we can run a union without dues?  After all, weren't the first unions just a collection of people that said "If you're going to treat us like pack mules and pay us the least you can get away with, then we're going to show you how essential we are to your business by striking"?


Isn't the union dues supposed to be like condo fees? Where it builds up your warchest, and covers some basic maintenance expenses?

The union positions should be volunteer though (I assume currently there are salary amounts attached?)
 
2014-03-17 04:50:19 PM

Caeldan: moeburn: 
Isn't the union dues supposed to be like condo fees? Where it builds up your warchest, and covers some basic maintenance expenses?

The union positions should be volunteer though (I assume currently there are salary amounts attached?)


Yes, that's exactly what union dues are supposed to be for, as well as a reserve fund to be paid back to the employees to sustain them and their families in the event of a strike.  But there are some paid positions, and they are really worth the money (after all, how good is the average person at writing a collective bargaining agreement and negotiating labour contracts?), but I just want somebody to show the nay-sayers that it can be done without collecting union dues.  It hasn't been done in nearly a hundred years.  I want someone to show them that if a labour force really did think things were that bad, they could fix it themselves, without hiring a union representative firm like CEP or NABET.
 
2014-03-17 05:25:08 PM
That's hilarious.

There have been people standing in front of a dealership I drive past on my way to work holding one of those Shame On signs for months. I never had any idea what they're shaming them for and it doesn't seem to be affecting business.

The day I buy a brand new car though is the day I've for more money than I know what to do with. I've been driving my $1500 car for 14 years, still looks pretty good too. Cars last a long time if you take care of them. I was happy to let someone else take the $26k depreciation hit.
 
2014-03-17 05:29:14 PM

No Such Agency: Misconduc: This was ripped off from Publix, the Tomato pickers in south florida demand 1 cent raise on every tomato picked, they put a "Shame on Publix" sign in which someone put up a sign saying "For having lower prices than Winn-Dixie or Walmart!".

A cent?! Who the hell do they think they are? I hope the Job Creators had them all deported to Chad.


It's a cent per tomato picked. I don't know what that works out to on average, but if it's "just a cent" maybe you can pay me a cent for every *insert action here*, because hey, it's just a cent.
 
2014-03-17 05:33:30 PM

AgentPothead: Unions aren't ever the problem. The problem, and this is pretty much a 100% of the time given, is people. People have ruined every single thing they've ever touched. And yet you keep reproducing like bacteria.


patdollard.com

Agreed, but Unions are a virus while bacteria etc etc
 
2014-03-17 05:34:04 PM

Orgasmatron138: That Guy Jeff: ifky: mbillips: What labor union covers workers at car dealerships? Is there a mechanic's union? Maybe the cleaning company is unionized?

Looks like the building in the back is being built or remodeled. I'm guessing they used a non union contractor to do the work.

What an incredible travesty, someone actually hiring whoever they want to do perform work instead of going through a specific organization, like they live in a free country or something.

(there's a reason everyone hates unions now)

Sure you have to take the bad with the good, but do you honestly think that life would be better if the unions hadn't existed?


Hadn't ever, or don't now? There's a difference.

Actually I rather like the idea of unions. What I don't like is the greedy messes most of them have become in the present day. Also I don't like the way most things are determined by seniority rather than merit. The thing that gets me the worst is the extremely arrogant attitude so many union members have. As if the only thing that enables quality workmanship is to belong to their union.
 
2014-03-17 05:41:10 PM

moeburn: Caeldan: moeburn: 
Isn't the union dues supposed to be like condo fees? Where it builds up your warchest, and covers some basic maintenance expenses?

The union positions should be volunteer though (I assume currently there are salary amounts attached?)

Yes, that's exactly what union dues are supposed to be for, as well as a reserve fund to be paid back to the employees to sustain them and their families in the event of a strike.  But there are some paid positions, and they are really worth the money (after all, how good is the average person at writing a collective bargaining agreement and negotiating labour contracts?), but I just want somebody to show the nay-sayers that it can be done without collecting union dues.  It hasn't been done in nearly a hundred years.  I want someone to show them that if a labour force really did think things were that bad, they could fix it themselves, without hiring a union representative firm like CEP or NABET.


Some union dues are even more useless when the contract forbids the right to strike.  Police and DPW workers can't strike, but they pay some high dues.  Lately, the unions haven't done any good in protecting the worker's pay and benefits.  If the unions didn't protect the police from us, they would cease to function altogether for the police.  The unions sure are losing a lot of respect these days.
 
2014-03-17 05:46:39 PM
lack of warmth:

Some union dues are even more useless when the contract forbids the right to strike.  Police and DPW workers can't strike, but they pay some high dues.  Lately, the unions haven't done any good in protecting the worker's pay and benefits.  If the unions didn't protect the police from us, they would cease to function altogether for the police.  The unions sure are losing a lot of respect these days.

Yeah, that's a good point.  But when I try and bring up a point like this to my dad, all I get is "That's just propaganda perpetuated by the conservative right".  I asked him "but don't you think that there might be just one union rep who really doesn't care about the people he/she is representing, and is only in it for the money, because sometimes, humans are assholes.  Don't you think that maybe a few of these people exist, and instead of pretending like they don't, we should be fighting them as hard as we fight the anti-union people?"  to which he responded, "No."
 
2014-03-17 05:53:35 PM

FilmBELOH20: I think calling drywall hangers "carpenter craftsmen" is a bit of a stretch.  I watched some guys redo my living room, then when it came time to redo my kitchen, I bought the tools and did it myself - including replacing parts of the ceiling, doing all of the taping, mudding and texture.  This included filling in a doorway, placing recessed lights where none had existed, and a bunch of other finish work.  I'm now redoing my basement by myself as well.  As long as contractors are following IBC to the letter, it shouldn't matter whether a company or an individual uses union or non-union labor.  Maybe in the case with plumbers and electricians - but it doesn't take a ton of skill to do the rest of the things involved with building - especially interior work.

/video nerd with no education involving carpentry
//oh, and non-union video nerd at that


Same here, only I've done a couple of bathrooms. I'm actually better at electrical and plumbing. I can do the drywall and finishing but I'm slow.

None o this stuff is rocket science if you know how to read a book or watch some videos. With any of it though, if in doubt, hire someone who knows what they're doing. I have seen some horrible hack job wiring and plumbing. Previous owner of my house knew just enough to be dangerous. You can tell at a glance what work was done by him and what was original.
 
2014-03-17 05:55:36 PM

James10952001: Orgasmatron138: That Guy Jeff: ifky: mbillips: What labor union covers workers at car dealerships? Is there a mechanic's union? Maybe the cleaning company is unionized?

Looks like the building in the back is being built or remodeled. I'm guessing they used a non union contractor to do the work.

What an incredible travesty, someone actually hiring whoever they want to do perform work instead of going through a specific organization, like they live in a free country or something.

(there's a reason everyone hates unions now)

Sure you have to take the bad with the good, but do you honestly think that life would be better if the unions hadn't existed?

Hadn't ever, or don't now? There's a difference.

Actually I rather like the idea of unions. What I don't like is the greedy messes most of them have become in the present day. Also I don't like the way most things are determined by seniority rather than merit. The thing that gets me the worst is the extremely arrogant attitude so many union members have. As if the only thing that enables quality workmanship is to belong to their union.


Who determines merit?  If it's your boss, all the young, cheap employees will have the lion's share of it. If it's the union, well, that's pretty much where we are today.  Assuming we're talking about actual physical labor, the young will generally be more capable, meaning the union would only be representative of them.  Older workers need a place in the workforce too.
 
2014-03-17 05:56:05 PM

RadiomanATL: OscarTamerz: The UAW in Detroit unionized all of the car dealership employees and in a unique union approach to productivity mandated that no car dealer could be open on weekends.  Every so often a car dealership would try and dispute that and the union would drop by and bust 20 or so windshields.  If the dealer didn't take the hint then they'd Molotov cocktail the whole lot.  It was kind of convenient for the dealer because any time they were going under they'd have big ad campaigns saying how they were opening on weekends, sell all the cars they could and the rest the UAW and their insurance company took care of.

Backwards. The dealerships colluded with each other to stay closed on the weekends. One reason they did this is to persuade their employees to not unionize. They basically offered it as a benefit to keep the employees happy.

From an article  when the FTC filed an antitrust complaint against the Detroit dealerships in 1985:


http://articles.latimes.com/1985-01-20/business/fi-10631_1_car-deale rs

Both McInerney and Hayes also claim that most of the pressure on dealers to remain closed on Saturdays comes from their employees, who see such closings as something of a fringe benefit. One local salesman, David Michels of Highland Park, Mich., recently wrote to the Detroit News to say that he had moved from San Diego to the Detroit area "because, as an automobile salesman, this is the only place in America where I may have a normal life and enjoy some of life's pleasures that the average working person takes for granted."

McInerney says dealers have restricted their hours in order to keep their employees from joining unions, and he complains that the FTC's action has sparked an organizing drive among local sales people by the Teamsters union, which scheduled a meeting with angry sales people last week.


How about they give them Mondays or Fridays off and work Saturday or Sunday? As long as I get a consecutive two day weekend every week, I wouldn't care which days it was on.
 
2014-03-17 06:11:24 PM

Persnickety: James10952001: Orgasmatron138: That Guy Jeff: ifky: mbillips: What labor union covers workers at car dealerships? Is there a mechanic's union? Maybe the cleaning company is unionized?

Looks like the building in the back is being built or remodeled. I'm guessing they used a non union contractor to do the work.

What an incredible travesty, someone actually hiring whoever they want to do perform work instead of going through a specific organization, like they live in a free country or something.

(there's a reason everyone hates unions now)

Sure you have to take the bad with the good, but do you honestly think that life would be better if the unions hadn't existed?

Hadn't ever, or don't now? There's a difference.

Actually I rather like the idea of unions. What I don't like is the greedy messes most of them have become in the present day. Also I don't like the way most things are determined by seniority rather than merit. The thing that gets me the worst is the extremely arrogant attitude so many union members have. As if the only thing that enables quality workmanship is to belong to their union.

Who determines merit?  If it's your boss, all the young, cheap employees will have the lion's share of it. If it's the union, well, that's pretty much where we are today.  Assuming we're talking about actual physical labor, the young will generally be more capable, meaning the union would only be representative of them.  Older workers need a place in the workforce too.


Plenty of union jobs don't require hard physical labor. In most trades there is great value in experience, all those time saving and results improving tricks that one learns and develops over time.

IMO the boss ought to determine merit, he's the guy paying me. I do good work and have a good professional relationship with my boss, and I'm compensated fairly for it.
 
2014-03-17 06:45:54 PM

No Such Agency: Misconduc: This was ripped off from Publix, the Tomato pickers in south florida demand 1 cent raise on every tomato picked, they put a "Shame on Publix" sign in which someone put up a sign saying "For having lower prices than Winn-Dixie or Walmart!".

A cent?! Who the hell do they think they are? I hope the Job Creators had them all deported to Chad.


You do realize that even at the pokey rate of one every 5 seconds, that's a raise of over $7 an hour, right?
 
2014-03-17 06:51:32 PM

James10952001: RadiomanATL: OscarTamerz: The UAW in Detroit unionized all of the car dealership employees and in a unique union approach to productivity mandated that no car dealer could be open on weekends.  Every so often a car dealership would try and dispute that and the union would drop by and bust 20 or so windshields.  If the dealer didn't take the hint then they'd Molotov cocktail the whole lot.  It was kind of convenient for the dealer because any time they were going under they'd have big ad campaigns saying how they were opening on weekends, sell all the cars they could and the rest the UAW and their insurance company took care of.

Backwards. The dealerships colluded with each other to stay closed on the weekends. One reason they did this is to persuade their employees to not unionize. They basically offered it as a benefit to keep the employees happy.

From an article  when the FTC filed an antitrust complaint against the Detroit dealerships in 1985:


http://articles.latimes.com/1985-01-20/business/fi-10631_1_car-deale rs

Both McInerney and Hayes also claim that most of the pressure on dealers to remain closed on Saturdays comes from their employees, who see such closings as something of a fringe benefit. One local salesman, David Michels of Highland Park, Mich., recently wrote to the Detroit News to say that he had moved from San Diego to the Detroit area "because, as an automobile salesman, this is the only place in America where I may have a normal life and enjoy some of life's pleasures that the average working person takes for granted."

McInerney says dealers have restricted their hours in order to keep their employees from joining unions, and he complains that the FTC's action has sparked an organizing drive among local sales people by the Teamsters union, which scheduled a meeting with angry sales people last week.

How about they give them Mondays or Fridays off and work Saturday or Sunday? As long as I get a consecutive two day weekend every week, I wouldn't care which days it was on.


Doesn't matter to me. Just pointing out it wasn't the unions on that one.
 
2014-03-17 07:05:09 PM

AngryDragon: No Such Agency: Misconduc: This was ripped off from Publix, the Tomato pickers in south florida demand 1 cent raise on every tomato picked, they put a "Shame on Publix" sign in which someone put up a sign saying "For having lower prices than Winn-Dixie or Walmart!".

A cent?! Who the hell do they think they are? I hope the Job Creators had them all deported to Chad.

You do realize that even at the pokey rate of one every 5 seconds, that's a raise of over $7 an hour, right?


Anybody picking that many farking tomatoes is working their ass off; working harder than most of us, that's for sure.
 
2014-03-17 07:15:35 PM

moeburn: lack of warmth:

Some union dues are even more useless when the contract forbids the right to strike.  Police and DPW workers can't strike, but they pay some high dues.  Lately, the unions haven't done any good in protecting the worker's pay and benefits.  If the unions didn't protect the police from us, they would cease to function altogether for the police.  The unions sure are losing a lot of respect these days.

Yeah, that's a good point.  But when I try and bring up a point like this to my dad, all I get is "That's just propaganda perpetuated by the conservative right".  I asked him "but don't you think that there might be just one union rep who really doesn't care about the people he/she is representing, and is only in it for the money, because sometimes, humans are assholes.  Don't you think that maybe a few of these people exist, and instead of pretending like they don't, we should be fighting them as hard as we fight the anti-union people?"  to which he responded, "No."


Unions don't persist as the result of recruiting the most open-minded people.
 
2014-03-17 07:26:27 PM

No Such Agency: AngryDragon: No Such Agency: Misconduc: This was ripped off from Publix, the Tomato pickers in south florida demand 1 cent raise on every tomato picked, they put a "Shame on Publix" sign in which someone put up a sign saying "For having lower prices than Winn-Dixie or Walmart!".

A cent?! Who the hell do they think they are? I hope the Job Creators had them all deported to Chad.

You do realize that even at the pokey rate of one every 5 seconds, that's a raise of over $7 an hour, right?

Anybody picking that many farking tomatoes is working their ass off; working harder than most of us, that's for sure.


I agree that it's hard work. If it paid an extra $7 an hour it would likely attract some real talent relatively speaking. Only the most productive pickers would still have a job.
 
2014-03-17 07:34:23 PM

Orgasmatron138: That Guy Jeff: ifky: mbillips: What labor union covers workers at car dealerships? Is there a mechanic's union? Maybe the cleaning company is unionized?

Looks like the building in the back is being built or remodeled. I'm guessing they used a non union contractor to do the work.

What an incredible travesty, someone actually hiring whoever they want to do perform work instead of going through a specific organization, like they live in a free country or something.

(there's a reason everyone hates unions now)

Sure you have to take the bad with the good, but do you honestly think that life would be better if the unions hadn't existed?


They were successful and they're done now.
 
2014-03-17 08:14:15 PM
img2-1.timeinc.net

"You know, kid, usually when someone pulls shiat like that my first reaction is I wanna punch his farkin' lights out but you know something? You're all right!"
 
2014-03-17 10:38:50 PM

ThighsofGlory: Orgasmatron138: That Guy Jeff: ifky: mbillips: What labor union covers workers at car dealerships? Is there a mechanic's union? Maybe the cleaning company is unionized?

Looks like the building in the back is being built or remodeled. I'm guessing they used a non union contractor to do the work.

What an incredible travesty, someone actually hiring whoever they want to do perform work instead of going through a specific organization, like they live in a free country or something.

(there's a reason everyone hates unions now)

Sure you have to take the bad with the good, but do you honestly think that life would be better if the unions hadn't existed?

They were successful and they're done now.


That's really the problem, isn't it.  Unions should behave more like revolutions/wars.  Things get intolerable, unionize, get things (including laws, if need be) changed, then just end it.  Most of them today have long outlived their usefulness and do much more harm than good.  When they're fighting against right to work, and for card check, they've gone off the rails.

Simple things like putting a company booth at a convention, taking it down again, and even plugging in an extension cord got me lectures and "hey, you can't do that!"'s from the union lackeys.  Not that I listened to them, but it was still annoying.
 
2014-03-17 10:56:24 PM

drop: ThighsofGlory: Orgasmatron138: That Guy Jeff: ifky: mbillips: What labor union covers workers at car dealerships? Is there a mechanic's union? Maybe the cleaning company is unionized?

Looks like the building in the back is being built or remodeled. I'm guessing they used a non union contractor to do the work.

What an incredible travesty, someone actually hiring whoever they want to do perform work instead of going through a specific organization, like they live in a free country or something.

(there's a reason everyone hates unions now)

Sure you have to take the bad with the good, but do you honestly think that life would be better if the unions hadn't existed?

They were successful and they're done now.

That's really the problem, isn't it.  Unions should behave more like revolutions/wars.  Things get intolerable, unionize, get things (including laws, if need be) changed, then just end it.  Most of them today have long outlived their usefulness and do much more harm than good.  When they're fighting against right to work, and for card check, they've gone off the rails.

Simple things like putting a company booth at a convention, taking it down again, and even plugging in an extension cord got me lectures and "hey, you can't do that!"'s from the union lackeys.  Not that I listened to them, but it was still annoying.


Organizations never just go away after achieving their stated goals, just look at the breast cancer awareness thing. Everyone is well aware of breast cancer but we still have massive fundraising corporations.

It's the petty rules like you mention that first put me off about unions. I can't stand just twiddling my thumbs because the guy who's job it is to do something trivial I'm fully capable of doing myself is busy. Drives me nuts, am I really going to put some guy out of a job because I unload a 10 pound object off the truck or unpack a crate?
 
2014-03-18 02:13:02 AM

The_Original_Roxtar: found a flyer with the union's beef spelled out on it
[thisistwitchy.files.wordpress.com image 850x1100]

so yeah... they hired a non-union carpenter and the union got all pissy that they weren't getting their cut.


In Wisconsin the exact same thing happened. Must be part of the same carpenter's union. They were handing out the same flyers and the sign was manned by 2-3 people all day. Turns out the people manning the sign were actually paid protester and not union members but they were being paid a fair wage. This went on for over a year. Gym owner had an article about how he hadn't even done the hiring for the work, the building he was in did. 

I'm all for unions, organization and all that.. but if you're just hiring for a contract job I'm interested in who can do a good job at the best rate. Presumably they'd have enough work at the lower rate to make up the difference. That being said, protests just because someone went with a lower bidder is silly. Show them what they're missing in your other projects with other clients.
 
2014-03-18 04:45:09 AM
It seems like I see those "Shame On ___" signs at least once a day when I go out. Are there really that many union protests going around? Even a church had one although I have no idea why. Somehow I think the only ones coming out ahead are the sign makers.
 
2014-03-18 09:06:24 AM
No one becomnes really involved with their union because they are good at what they are do.  Lousy, lazy, incompetent, corrupt employees benefit the most from union protection, so guess who tends to become the most active members?
 
2014-03-18 09:58:03 AM
I lol'ed at TFA.

Kansas is a right to work state (meaning even if you work a unionized position at a unionized organization, you do not have to be a part of the union or pay union dues, but you still get the same pay, benifits, and union representation as someone who does). Keeping this in mind, unions still have a lot of pull even in this super-Republican state.

I have talked with many Tea Party-esque Republican union members about why they are so die-hard union members when their political affiliations show quite the contrary and they usually say somethign on the line of not wanting to be screwed by "the company" and point out how the non-union positions in the organizationg work more hours for what works out to less pay per hour than the union worker despite the positions themselves requiring higher skill, more education, or more responsibility. They also compare our pay and benifits to workers in other similar organizations throughout the country and show that we get paid a little less or about the same as the organiziations that have no unions, so they conclude that "the company" is corrupt and out to suck as much work for as little money as possible from us and the onty thing stopping them is the union.

While i agree they have a point concerning the non-union workers, they neglect to take into account the difference in cost-of-living between out organization and others in more desirable locations (Kansas is about as undesirable as it gets for people who haven't lived here), so money goes farther here. Also, i have seen too many people pull out the union contract during an argument on whether a discussion before work counts as overtime or to count a death in the family as "Vacation", "Sick", or "Other", and even one guy get 6 months paid time off for having sleep apnea which "got better" as soon as the union contract's stated sick allotment ran out. The next year, when it reset, he suddenly started having relapses, but they were keeping a paper trail on the guy and got him fired before he could take any major time off (still got about a month off). I have seen offences that would normally get someone thrown in federal prison get covered up by the union and considered a "temporary lapse in judgement" and get someone their job back after a couple months suspension. On the other end, i am tired of the non-union supervisors constantly thumping the union contract when harder workers complain about getting treated the same as lazy union workers and not being able to take longer than a 15 minute break regardless of what work they had been doing previously (working in 100+ degree weather vice working in an office).

I am not saying that unions are bad, they are just there to try to counteract companies taking advantage of workers. I just don't like people, union or not, who try to take advantage of the situation ruining it for everyone else. Unions would not be here if it werent for companies doing it and unions wouldn't be hated so much if it werent for union members/leaders doing it.
 
2014-03-18 11:07:57 AM

Misconduc: This was ripped off from Publix, the Tomato pickers in south florida demand 1 cent raise on every tomato picked, they put a "Shame on Publix" sign in which someone put up a sign saying "For having lower prices than Winn-Dixie or Walmart!".


So, whats your point?
 
2014-03-18 02:10:32 PM

Eskaminagaga: I lol'ed at TFA.

I am not saying that unions are bad, they are just there to try to counteract companies taking advantage of workers. I just don't like people, union or not, who try to take advantage of the situation ruining it for everyone else. Unions would not be here if it werent for companies doing it and unions wouldn't be hated so much if it werent for union members/leaders doing it.


The problem isn't that the counteract abuses by the company -- that's good, it's the reason they get organized to start with.  The problem is that when the issues are handled, they don't disband.  They keep collecting dues, and eventually start actively seeking out anything the company does that they can even mildly construe as abuse.

Eventually it gets to the point that employees are 'abusing' their employer via union strong-arming.

I'm a die-hard libertarian and the fact is, unions are a huge sticking point for any "real" libertarian because despite our hatred for them, we recognize the right of a company to enter any contract it wants to with it's employees -- including closed-shop agreements.  This directly conflicts with support for right-to-work, which I also support.  Lesser of two evils I guess.

Most libertarians I've met are intellectually dishonest about that last bit, and support right to work with no regard for the employer/employee right to enter into a closed-shop agreement.
 
2014-03-18 02:29:04 PM

l3yteme: It seems like I see those "Shame On ___" signs at least once a day when I go out. Are there really that many union protests going around? Even a church had one although I have no idea why. Somehow I think the only ones coming out ahead are the sign makers.


Probably had some remodeling going on at the church. I think there's a good reason why those signs don't have any real information.

A good friend of mine worked for Chrysler for a number of years. He described union dues as a tax he paid to prevent his car from being keyed.
 
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