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(Huffington Post)   U.S.: We see your referendum on independence and substitute our own   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 109
    More: Followup, United States, Crimean, referendum on independence, Russia, Government of Ukraine, Russians in Ukraine, russian military, intimidation  
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2052 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 Mar 2014 at 12:45 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-17 11:54:21 AM  
How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?
 
2014-03-17 11:59:27 AM  
I'm just imagining what the Crimea referendum would look like if the 24 hour news networks carried it.

"With 3% of precincts reporting, we can safely call the northern Provence in favor of Freedom and Jesus! Let's turn now to our senior political correspondent on these results and see how they will affect the GOP in this year's midterms"
 
2014-03-17 12:06:06 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?


The CIA tends to help with the 'how'. Just ask Iran, Chile, etc.

The question should probably "Why?"
 
2014-03-17 12:09:23 PM  

Aar1012: InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?

The CIA tends to help with the 'how'. Just ask Iran, Chile, etc.

The question should probably "Why?"


Because allowing Russia to chip off parts of neighboring states is bad for world stability.
 
2014-03-17 12:25:25 PM  

EvilEgg: Aar1012: InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?

The CIA tends to help with the 'how'. Just ask Iran, Chile, etc.

The question should probably "Why?"

Because allowing Russia to chip off parts of neighboring states is bad for world stability.


I don't agree with Russia's actions. I'm just saying that the US has acted like this before in the past.

The Cold War was a messed up time
 
2014-03-17 12:29:56 PM  

EvilEgg: Aar1012: InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?

The CIA tends to help with the 'how'. Just ask Iran, Chile, etc.

The question should probably "Why?"

Because allowing Russia to chip off parts of neighboring states is bad for world stability.


One could argue the only reason there is any world instability over Russia nibbling away at neighboring states is because we are getting upset about it. Sounds like the folks getting 'chipped off' are quite pleased with the idea. Some say that voter turnout for the referendum was nearly 80%. When was the last time that voter turnout in the U.S. topped even 50%?
 
2014-03-17 12:35:25 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: EvilEgg: Aar1012: InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?

The CIA tends to help with the 'how'. Just ask Iran, Chile, etc.

The question should probably "Why?"

Because allowing Russia to chip off parts of neighboring states is bad for world stability.

One could argue the only reason there is any world instability over Russia nibbling away at neighboring states is because we are getting upset about it. Sounds like the folks getting 'chipped off' are quite pleased with the idea. Some say that voter turnout for the referendum was nearly 80%. When was the last time that voter turnout in the U.S. topped even 50%?


The Confederate States also voted to leave, you can't just vote to leave like that.  Especially when you have your neighbor's tanks parked in front of the polling places.
 
2014-03-17 12:45:31 PM  

EvilEgg: InterruptingQuirk: EvilEgg: Aar1012: InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?

The CIA tends to help with the 'how'. Just ask Iran, Chile, etc.

The question should probably "Why?"

Because allowing Russia to chip off parts of neighboring states is bad for world stability.

One could argue the only reason there is any world instability over Russia nibbling away at neighboring states is because we are getting upset about it. Sounds like the folks getting 'chipped off' are quite pleased with the idea. Some say that voter turnout for the referendum was nearly 80%. When was the last time that voter turnout in the U.S. topped even 50%?

The Confederate States also voted to leave, you can't just vote to leave like that.  Especially when you have your neighbor's tanks parked in front of the polling places.


Yeah, I know that The Supreme Court determined that the South did not have a legal right to secede, but I still don't get that one either. We have enshrined a right to egress for individuals, yet not for states?

/born and bred Northerner
 
2014-03-17 12:47:54 PM  
Let's just fax them a copy of the Platt Amendment.
 
2014-03-17 12:48:36 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: EvilEgg: Aar1012: InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?

The CIA tends to help with the 'how'. Just ask Iran, Chile, etc.

The question should probably "Why?"

Because allowing Russia to chip off parts of neighboring states is bad for world stability.

One could argue the only reason there is any world instability over Russia nibbling away at neighboring states is because we are getting upset about it. Sounds like the folks getting 'chipped off' are quite pleased with the idea. Some say that voter turnout for the referendum was nearly 80%. When was the last time that voter turnout in the U.S. topped even 50%?


They got an 85% turnout and a 95% yes vote.  The Russian population is only about 55%.
 
2014-03-17 12:48:46 PM  
Here's a question:  SHOULD the US care about whether Crimea joins with Russia or not?  Do we support democracy only when we like the results?
 
2014-03-17 12:57:36 PM  

A Cave Geek: Here's a question:  SHOULD the US care about whether Crimea joins with Russia or not?  Do we support democracy only when we like the results?


Yes. Yes.
 
2014-03-17 12:58:07 PM  
Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?
 
2014-03-17 12:58:09 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?


Because

i3.kym-cdn.com
 
2014-03-17 12:59:34 PM  

CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?


As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.
 
2014-03-17 01:01:43 PM  

EvilEgg: A Cave Geek: Here's a question:  SHOULD the US care about whether Crimea joins with Russia or not?  Do we support democracy only when we like the results?

Yes. Yes.


Why?  and Why?  (Assume I know very little about Crimean politics, but am fairly fluent on geopolitical implications of other issues)
 
2014-03-17 01:04:45 PM  

A Cave Geek: Here's a question:  SHOULD the US care about whether Crimea joins with Russia or not?  Do we support democracy only when we like the results?


Is it democracy to have armed troops of dubious nationality enforcing a hastily set up AND highly biased referendum? If that's the new standard for democracy you can expect "patriotic" Americans exercising their 2nd Amendment right to bear arms right outside polling stations to protect America from "Progressives" in the next 3-5 election cycles.

/somewhat hyperbolic, I'll grant. But not more than a step away from possibility, particularly if Liberals/Progressives get gun control measures on the ballot...
 
2014-03-17 01:05:25 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?

As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.


The rest of Ukraine didn't get a vote.
 
2014-03-17 01:07:33 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?

As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.


Put Texas secession to a vote only on Texas and let me know how that goes.
 
2014-03-17 01:07:40 PM  

A Cave Geek: EvilEgg: A Cave Geek: Here's a question:  SHOULD the US care about whether Crimea joins with Russia or not?  Do we support democracy only when we like the results?

Yes. Yes.

Why?  and Why?  (Assume I know very little about Crimean politics, but am fairly fluent on geopolitical implications of other issues)


Because it is a violation of the Ukraine's Constitution.

Because if you vote for a dictatorship, you can't vote out a dictatorship.
 
2014-03-17 01:08:10 PM  

A Cave Geek: Why? and Why? (Assume I know very little about Crimean politics, but am fairly fluent on geopolitical implications of other issues)


Because Russia more or less told them that they're having a referendum to join Russia while stationing a shiat-ton of troops in and around their border with the assumption that if they didn't vote Russian's way, they'd invade.

It's a fancy way to annex a portion of a country. Granted, Russia has significant interests in the nation, but it's still a douchey way of handling it on Putin's part.
 
2014-03-17 01:09:47 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?

As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.


So did Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Un.
 
2014-03-17 01:14:04 PM  
Is Huffpost video autoplay and broken/unshutoffable for anybody else? Or is it just me?

/been going on for a week or two now
 
2014-03-17 01:14:05 PM  
The problem is that vast majority of people living in Crimea are of Russian descent, not Ukrainian and not Tatar (who used to occupy it in the 1800s and before). Ukraine was given a lot of land after 1991 that wasn't their to begin with and I'm not only talking about Crimea. In the souther part, a lot of the land belonged to Romania prior to WWII thus Moldova has a better claim at that land than Ukraine does.

Of course, the USSR did forced migrations after WWII in order to make sure that the people living in the areas closest to Europe were ethnically russian and not Ukranian, Moldovan, Belarus, etc.

If you hold a vote right now in all those former Russian countries I would not be surprised if all of them voted to go back to Russia. Hell, most of the natural resources that are needed to have an economy (petrol, natural gas, electricity) comes from Russia so any time one of those countries does something Moscow doesn't approve of, the pipeline is turned off.
 
2014-03-17 01:15:48 PM  

wxboy: InterruptingQuirk: CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?

As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.

The rest of Ukraine didn't get a vote.


If I want to leave, why does someone else get to determine if I may? The vote in Crimea did make a determination for any other part of the Ukraine.
 
2014-03-17 01:17:33 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?


History damns Neville Chamberlain pretty well for letting Germany chip-off portions of neighboring states for the exact same ethnic rationalizations.

/not a Godwin due to being a spot-on comparison
 
2014-03-17 01:18:12 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: wxboy: InterruptingQuirk: CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?

As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.

The rest of Ukraine didn't get a vote.

If I want to leave, why does someone else get to determine if I may? The vote in Crimea did make a determination for any other part of the Ukraine.


Because that is what you agreed to when you joined?
 
2014-03-17 01:18:39 PM  
Voting while being occupied by a foreign power can only work if the foreign power doing the occupying is the US, otherwise the results are invalid and are merely being used as a ploy to establish the legitimacy of the occupier.
 
2014-03-17 01:20:31 PM  

ArkPanda: InterruptingQuirk: EvilEgg: Aar1012: InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?

The CIA tends to help with the 'how'. Just ask Iran, Chile, etc.

The question should probably "Why?"

Because allowing Russia to chip off parts of neighboring states is bad for world stability.

One could argue the only reason there is any world instability over Russia nibbling away at neighboring states is because we are getting upset about it. Sounds like the folks getting 'chipped off' are quite pleased with the idea. Some say that voter turnout for the referendum was nearly 80%. When was the last time that voter turnout in the U.S. topped even 50%?

They got an 85% turnout and a 95% yes vote.  The Russian population is only about 55%.


Why did it take an invasion, or rather a "border tease" depending on who you ask, to make this happen? Why couldn't this vote happen peacefully?
 
2014-03-17 01:21:40 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: wxboy: InterruptingQuirk: CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?

As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.

The rest of Ukraine didn't get a vote.

If I want to leave, why does someone else get to determine if I may? The vote in Crimea did make a determination for any other part of the Ukraine.


Because the Ukrainian constitution says that any important matter that affects all of Ukraine must be voted on by the entire country.

That, and the election was very VERY obviously rigged at worst (no option on the ballot for status quo, soldiers stationed everywhere near the polling places, ballot boxes transparent so you could see who voted what way) and utterly biased at best (propaganda depicting the vote as between literal Nazism and Russian freedom).  There are a lot of very good reasons people are comparing this to the Anschluss.
 
2014-03-17 01:21:56 PM  
*not make
 
2014-03-17 01:23:32 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-03-17 01:24:19 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?


Because it's not Democracy (TM) unless they vote the way we want them to vote.

You should know this, serf.
 
2014-03-17 01:25:27 PM  

EvilEgg: Especially when you have your neighbor's tanks parked in front of the polling places.


If the tanks left, the results of the vote would be the same.
Watchagonndo?
 
2014-03-17 01:26:09 PM  

Triple Oak: ArkPanda: InterruptingQuirk: EvilEgg: Aar1012: InterruptingQuirk: How does the U.S. have a say in the matter?

The CIA tends to help with the 'how'. Just ask Iran, Chile, etc.

The question should probably "Why?"

Because allowing Russia to chip off parts of neighboring states is bad for world stability.

One could argue the only reason there is any world instability over Russia nibbling away at neighboring states is because we are getting upset about it. Sounds like the folks getting 'chipped off' are quite pleased with the idea. Some say that voter turnout for the referendum was nearly 80%. When was the last time that voter turnout in the U.S. topped even 50%?

They got an 85% turnout and a 95% yes vote.  The Russian population is only about 55%.

Why did it take an invasion, or rather a "border tease" depending on who you ask, to make this happen? Why couldn't this vote happen peacefully?


I was trying to point out how ridiculous the numbers were.  For this to happen, every single non-Ukrainian and about half the Ukrainians had to vote to join Russia.
 
2014-03-17 01:28:42 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: wxboy: InterruptingQuirk: CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?

As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.

The rest of Ukraine didn't get a vote.

If I want to leave, why does someone else get to determine if I may? The vote in Crimea did make a determination for any other part of the Ukraine.


If you want to leave go ahead. There's lots of space in Russia. That's not the issue.
 
2014-03-17 01:28:53 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: EvilEgg: Especially when you have your neighbor's tanks parked in front of the polling places.

If the tanks left, the results of the vote would be the same.
Watchagonndo?


So you are honestly trying to say that this referendum was straight and on the level?  Despite literally EVERYONE but Russia saying otherwise?
 
2014-03-17 01:28:56 PM  

somedude210: A Cave Geek: Why? and Why? (Assume I know very little about Crimean politics, but am fairly fluent on geopolitical implications of other issues)

Because Russia more or less told them that they're having a referendum to join Russia while stationing a shiat-ton of troops in and around their border with the assumption that if they didn't vote Russian's way, they'd invade.

It's a fancy way to annex a portion of a country. Granted, Russia has significant interests in the nation, but it's still a douchey way of handling it on Putin's part.


And they have a fairly RECENT history of slaughtering everybody, once a new government comes into power, who has ever so much as whispered against that government.  Now they have voting proof.

I would vote for it if I was an American on vacation over there right now just to save my ass.
 
2014-03-17 01:29:13 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: EvilEgg: Especially when you have your neighbor's tanks parked in front of the polling places.

If the tanks left, the results of the vote would be the same.
Watchagonndo?


Then why did this vote not happen until all the tanks were in place.  The timing is a little suspicious.
 
2014-03-17 01:31:38 PM  

NEDM: InterruptingQuirk: wxboy: InterruptingQuirk: CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?

As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.

The rest of Ukraine didn't get a vote.

If I want to leave, why does someone else get to determine if I may? The vote in Crimea did make a determination for any other part of the Ukraine.

Because the Ukrainian constitution says that any important matter that affects all of Ukraine must be voted on by the entire country.

That, and the election was very VERY obviously rigged at worst (no option on the ballot for status quo, soldiers stationed everywhere near the polling places, ballot boxes transparent so you could see who voted what way) and utterly biased at best (propaganda depicting the vote as between literal Nazism and Russian freedom).  There are a lot of very good reasons people are comparing this to the Anschluss.


Yes the Ukrainian constitution is paramount. Russia and NATO should come together and roll in the tanks to restore Ukraine's constitutionally elected government by force.
 
2014-03-17 01:38:34 PM  

NEDM: So you are honestly trying to say that this referendum was straight and on the level?  Despite literally EVERYONE but Russia saying otherwise?


This referendum was hasty, with limited options and certainly with some violations, but unlikely to the point where it would change the result.

International observers did not find serious violations; now, of course, you may declare all those observers Putin's lapdogs, but isn't it a bit of no true Scotsman?

Considering the history of Crimea's decades of trying to get independence from Kiev and Ukraine, is it that hard to believe that they do want separate from hated Kiev?

As for the threat of Russian tanks, that was a threat to the rest of Ukraine, not to Crimeans. Crimeans consider themselves Russians, in their majority; even those formally Ukrainian in Crimea speak Russian as a native language. Crimean politicians were pro-Russian nationalists for decades. Crimea wasn't afraid of Russian army when they were voting.
 
2014-03-17 01:38:42 PM  
Also, for those of you trying to argue that the vote is justified.  A country is not just a big homogenous geography, where taking off sections is akin to cutting up a piece of cake.  A country is formed off of a huge number of circumstances, and more important than culture is resources.  In other words, the sum is greater than the parts.

Removing Crimea is way more than just losing a certain geography.  It would be like cutting off a hand and expecting not to bleed to death.
 
2014-03-17 01:42:09 PM  

EvilEgg: Then why did this vote not happen until all the tanks were in place.  The timing is a little suspicious.


The vote for independence for Crimea was already taken a number of times before. In 1992, for example, Crimea voted for independence from Ukraine, had their own constitution and president. Ukraine refused to let them go. The whole thing about "not leaving Ukraine without the vote of the whole country" was written in specifically to keep Crimea in.

In 1992 Russia did not have power, will and desire to help Crimeans. Now it had.

The tanks were not a threat to Crimeans; Crimeans see Russian army as "their own". They were the threat to the rest of Ukraine.
 
2014-03-17 01:42:59 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: EvilEgg: Especially when you have your neighbor's tanks parked in front of the polling places.

If the tanks left, the results of the vote would be the same.
Watchagonndo?


Follow the Constitution, as Ukraine requested?

Have a ballot measure that had an actual choice to not change things?
 
2014-03-17 01:44:04 PM  

Communist_Manifesto: Voting while being occupied by a foreign power can only work if the foreign power doing the occupying is the US, otherwise the results are invalid and are merely being used as a ploy to establish the legitimacy of the occupier.


I get the implication that you feel it's wrong for the US to do that. If this is so, then surely it is also wrong for Russia to do it.
 
2014-03-17 01:44:13 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: wxboy: InterruptingQuirk: CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?

As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.

The rest of Ukraine didn't get a vote.

If I want to leave, why does someone else get to determine if I may? The vote in Crimea did make a determination for any other part of the Ukraine.


That depends: do you simply want to leave, or do you want the land you are standing on to come with you?

You' should be free to leave any country (this is one of the universal human rights recognized by the UN,) but secession isn't "leaving."  There are good reasons why other citizens should have some say in whether you can take part of the country and transfer it to another state.
 
2014-03-17 01:45:07 PM  

Grahor: International observers did not find serious violations; now, of course, you may declare all those observers Putin's lapdogs, but isn't it a bit of no true Scotsman?


I find that very hard to believe since the White House specifically brought up Russia's refusal to let observers in as a reason why they rejected the referendum's validity.
 
2014-03-17 01:48:05 PM  

madgonad: History damns Neville Chamberlain pretty well for letting Germany chip-off portions of neighboring states for the exact same ethnic rationalizations.


No, history damns Chamberlain for his inability to see into the future, where what have started as perfectly legal and reasonable, by the international law (the right of self-determination of people), have turned into outright captures of foreign territory without any such justification.
 
2014-03-17 01:58:06 PM  

Grahor: madgonad: History damns Neville Chamberlain pretty well for letting Germany chip-off portions of neighboring states for the exact same ethnic rationalizations.

No, history damns Chamberlain for his inability to see into the future, where what have started as perfectly legal and reasonable, by the international law (the right of self-determination of people), have turned into outright captures of foreign territory without any such justification.


Self determination does not equal the right to determine the sovereignty of the government over the land that you are living on.

Think of it this way.  A pissed off teenager cannot "vote" and thereby declare that their bedroom is their own separate house, right?  The parents own the house, they own the bedroom.  A vote has no meaning.  Same exact thing here.  The country is sovereign over the land.  And the only way to impact a country's direction is for the entire country to agree based on their constitutional voting requirements.
 
2014-03-17 01:59:25 PM  

Xcott: InterruptingQuirk: wxboy: InterruptingQuirk: CPennypacker: Uh, if this is really a democracy concern then shouldn't the entire country vote if they can leave?

As was pointed out here. They got a larger turnout response then we are likely to ever see in the U.S. on any issue.

The rest of Ukraine didn't get a vote.

If I want to leave, why does someone else get to determine if I may? The vote in Crimea did make a determination for any other part of the Ukraine.

That depends: do you simply want to leave, or do you want the land you are standing on to come with you?

You' should be free to leave any country (this is one of the universal human rights recognized by the UN,) but secession isn't "leaving."  There are good reasons why other citizens should have some say in whether you can take part of the country and transfer it to another state.


Do people not have any rights to the things they own when they leave to travel or move to another place, e.g.  cars, money, furniture, appliances, boats, houses, planes, paintings? Do I not own the land that the deeds I have in my possession say that I own? If an entire region of landowners decide to leave an association with another region of landowners, they must forfeit their land property to the other region which does not own it?
 
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