Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Time)   ADHD does not exist   (time.com) divider line 218
    More: Obvious, ADHD, iron deficiency, stimulants, DSM  
•       •       •

20377 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2014 at 4:37 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



218 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-03-16 10:48:01 PM  
Ok, that may be true, but there are few people I know first hand who are dazzled by shiny objects.
 
2014-03-16 10:50:16 PM  
What were we talking about?
 
2014-03-16 10:51:37 PM  
Well, this sounds like something I won't be able to stay focused on. Enjoy your thoughtful, well-reasoned discussion, kids.
 
2014-03-16 10:51:39 PM  
tl;drb

(too long; didn't ride bikes)
 
2014-03-16 10:54:45 PM  
Drugs to treat it certainly does exist.
 
2014-03-16 10:56:14 PM  
I learned to hyper-caffeinate myself when I need to slow down and concentrate. I took Adderal for a little while, but stopped that shiat after I found myself doing lesson plans for 3-4 hours at a time, and not even realizing how much time had passed.
 
2014-03-16 11:08:04 PM  
I agree.
 
2014-03-16 11:24:42 PM  
this should be good.
 
2014-03-16 11:26:40 PM  
I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
2014-03-16 11:40:06 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: What were we talking about?


Something about attention def--- SQUIRREL!
 
2014-03-17 12:11:38 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


This person knows what's up.

/former overmedicated child
//occasional tutor of kids who really do need the pills
 
2014-03-17 12:44:36 AM  
This thread will go well.
 
2014-03-17 12:54:50 AM  

FishyFred: AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This person knows what's up.

/former overmedicated child
//occasional tutor of kids who really do need the pills


The biggest problem is if your child requires any extra help in school they must have a medical diagnosis
 
2014-03-17 12:56:35 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them


Their parents?
 
2014-03-17 01:06:57 AM  

FishyFred: AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This person knows what's up.

/former overmedicated child
//occasional tutor of kids who really do need the pills


Whether a person actually has extreme behavioral issues or a person simply wants to improve behavioral traits, the means (ie the drugs) should be available to them without requirement.  But due to our drug hysteria in America we must make people justify the use with medical and government agencies.  Therefor ADHD diagnosis was created to facilitate the distribution.  Without ADHD drugs like Adderall would never make it out of laboratories.
 
2014-03-17 01:09:43 AM  

SilentStrider: This thread will go well.


Focus, people!
 
2014-03-17 01:16:35 AM  
For those with ADHD, he doesn't say that the behaviors & symptoms don't exist, he says something something you're reading the next post now anyway so whatever.
 
2014-03-17 01:18:21 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


This, of course, is the rub. Where do you draw the line on what is, fundamentally, a spectrum of behaviors with no available lab tests to diagnose a disease?
 
2014-03-17 01:22:13 AM  
Whar grafs?
 
2014-03-17 01:31:02 AM  
I agree, ADHD is not a real BIRD!
 
2014-03-17 01:34:49 AM  
Why don't you farkers just self medicate like we all used to
 
2014-03-17 01:56:45 AM  
so drugs are being used to treat symptoms, rather than tests being done to determine if there is some sort of underlying condition and then treating that condition?

COLOR ME SHOCKED
Especially given the terrible health care in the US.


CSB
I had undiagnosed hashimoto's (hypothyroidism) for probably 10 years.
ooo depression? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep problems? lets put you on meds
ooo weight gain? well you are just lazy
ooo hypertension? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep apnea? lets put you on a machine or something

Even after being put on hormone replacement, the doctor was under dosing me, because they are TERRIFIED of going over. LOL

FFS, once I FINALLY was properly treated, oh LOOK, my sleep problems went away, my depression went away, my weight improved, my hypertension improved.

All at the cost of a generic pill and proper testing.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

TL;DR - be in charge of your own medical health, because no one else is
/csb
 
2014-03-17 02:14:59 AM  
for anyone interested in the subject, check out a Louis Theroux doco called  America's Medicated Kids. here's a promo. and  another one. it used to be up on YouTube in full but now i can only find part 4/4. i'm sure if you hunt for it you could find it. well worth a watch.

i definitely think ADHD is a thing, but i doubt it's anywhere near as rampant and widespread as it seems to have become in recent years. i think there are a  lot of otherwise healthy kids out there having labels slapped on them and pills shoved down their throats as an alternative to responsible parenting.

it's gotta be easier and less guilt-inducing to say your kid has a disorder than to take responsibility for the impact of your own shiatty parenting on their behaviour.
 
2014-03-17 02:36:19 AM  
But if you stop prescribing kids ADHD medications, where am I going to find cheap amphetamines?
 
2014-03-17 02:52:30 AM  

Angela Lansbury's Merkin: But if you stop prescribing kids ADHD medications, where am I going to find cheap amphetamines?


Really?
img.fark.net
 
2014-03-17 03:46:10 AM  
I definitely have an attention daydreaming disorder. Why did they put the H in ADD? *snaps fingers in my own face* dammit you snappy hands, I was staring through the computer monitor thinking about something, might have been important. Anyway, yeah, maybe I just get bored too easily. I wish I could actually see the galaxy when I'm off in space.
 
2014-03-17 04:19:15 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Angela Lansbury's Merkin: But if you stop prescribing kids ADHD medications, where am I going to find cheap amphetamines?

Really?
[img.fark.net image 512x288]


I need something buffered for slow release.  Enough pep to get me through a shift, without turning me into a toothless pimpled zombie.
 
2014-03-17 04:42:44 AM  
Lost interest halfway through the first paragraph. I'm hungry
 
2014-03-17 04:44:27 AM  
I disagree.
 
2014-03-17 04:44:37 AM  
A good arse spanking do
 
2014-03-17 04:47:15 AM  
Talk about a misleading and stupid headline. The doctor ACTUALLY said something like, "ADHD doesn't exist; it's being used as a catch-all and the reality is much more complicated." Basically, lamenting how absolutely terrible the options for mental health care are right now, thanks to the farking bluehairs that don't believe in any psychiatric conditions besides let's-throw-them-in-an-asylum-to-die-or-be-experimented-on-crazy.
 
2014-03-17 04:48:11 AM  

Frederick: Drugs to treat it certainly does exist.


Except that those drugs have identical effects on people who clearly do not fit the criteria.
 
2014-03-17 04:48:39 AM  
Bullshiat. Yes it exists, but yes it's probably over diagnosed. Lots of parents out there doctor shopping for their legal cocaine. Can't say I blame them..thinking about having kids soon....

i15.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-17 04:51:59 AM  
ADD and DHD definitely exist. I've seen it. ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) also exists. But psychiatrists are over prescribing pills, and it is leading to a horrifyingly over-medicated society. There are pills to make you pay attention, make you pee, make you not pee, make you crap, make you crap less water, make you sleep, make you stop thinking about the disembodied voices, make you happy, make you sad. And somewhere there's a pill to make you do all that at once.

But we're just too happy to accept a medical explanation for why the little farker can't sit still than understand that maybe he's just a F*CKING kid.

What is also over-diagnosed? Easy--food allergies.
 
2014-03-17 04:52:40 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.


Out of all the kids I've met who have had diagnoses of ADD or ADHD only one of them actually acted like they had something wrong with them and it was farking obvious. This kid was bouncing off the walls from sun up to sunset. Just nonstop. She would have been better had her parents actually gave her the meds instead of snorting them. The rest? Nope they don't act like she did. Just bratty kids with parents too high to give a fark. One of them was actually re-diagnosed as having Oppositional Defiance Disorder,basically the kiddy version of Anti Social personality disorder. Her mom took her to a different doctor cause she didn't like that diagnosis,IE she wanted those pills they'd give the kid if they said she had adhd. I mean it wasn't like a majority of these kids were actually getting the meds they were prescribed but still.
 
2014-03-17 04:55:19 AM  
Well, it does seem that every attention deficient kid can find endless amounts for something engaging like a videogame, which must be hyperactivity.

I was a horrible student who never did his homework and aced tests. It took until college to find homework interesting enough to do. I've played Half-Life games straight through. I don't touch WoW or other things like that because I know I'd lose months. I played Candy Crush to level 215, which I think is the last level because it's a total fark you.

I've done a six hour exam and finished early. I've done a twelve hour day in a VFR air traffic control tower. But I live in a sty because I can't focus on cleaning for an hour.
 
2014-03-17 04:58:43 AM  

Generation_D: Why don't you farkers just self medicate like we all used to


Used to?
 
2014-03-17 04:59:05 AM  
Diagnosing yourself with ADHD is much less true than calling yourself an asshole.  Which is much more likely ;)
 
2014-03-17 04:59:39 AM  
The guy is biatching that the prescribed stimulants can cause "severe weight loss due to appetite suppression", the only problem I can see with that side effect is that the drugs are not being made available to more people, given we supposedly have an obesity epidemic.
 
2014-03-17 04:59:50 AM  
I clicked to make a comment and forgot what thread I was in.

CRIMEA RIVER?!
 
2014-03-17 05:01:11 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


THIS.

I was very skeptical about the prevalence of ADHD until I started working with elementary school aged children. I was raised old school and figure what these kids needed most was an ass whuppin'.

I'm sure that over medication of kids and young adults does happen but I've personally seen dozens of kids who have had their ability to concentrate AND LEARN aided by medication...
 
2014-03-17 05:01:33 AM  
Subby, those are fighting words.
 
2014-03-17 05:02:32 AM  
Just a reminder, at least half the US is on one or more prescription meds and the number may be as high as 70%. From memory the next highest nation checks at 30% but I can't find numbers to back that up.
 
2014-03-17 05:06:59 AM  

Angela Lansbury's Merkin: But if you stop prescribing kids ADHD medications, where am I going to find cheap amphetamines?


This.

When I was in college, we used to have to hang out at the truck stops to find speed for cramming and finals. Now these kids these days just go to the doc and say they have a little problem concentrating.

/lawn, off, you know how it is.
 
2014-03-17 05:07:16 AM  
Well yeah it exists. That's why there's a word for it. If there's a word for it it exists. If it didn't exist there wouldn't be a word for it. Duh. Work it out brain guy. You think people are busy making words for things that don't exist? Then how would they be able to make a word for something which could not be described? "Hey come up for a word for this thing that isn't real." You can't. I tried it. You can't make a word that doesn't have meaning. That means it's just noise. That's the definition of the word word brain guy. Look it up. Words can't not mean something. So what you're saying brain guy is that the word ADHD isn't a word. It's not that what is defined by ADHD doesn't exist, it's that the very word ADHD doesn't exist. Are you prepared for this brain guy? Are you prepared to tell American this?
 
2014-03-17 05:10:17 AM  
Way back when, the principal of my school prescribed me Ritalin.  Okay, what she really did was tell my parents that if I didn't get put on Ritalin I would be kicked out of school.  Same farking thing.

It was wrong and I really didn't notice any effects either good or bad from taking that drug.

I was initially labeled as "hyperactive", but there does seem to be some attention deficit in there somewhere.  What's interesting is if I'm really interested i something I can give it my full attention, but a lot of other stuff I lose interest in about 15 seconds.

I even have trouble watching TV shows sometimes.  Sometimes I watch something for 2 minutes and hit pause and watch another 2 minutes before I'm bored again and have to hit pause again.

It's an affliction and it's not so simple as being distracted by a squirrel.    Some things really grab my attention and I can focus in on them, but a lot of other shiat.....well, my mind just tunes out.
 
2014-03-17 05:11:33 AM  
I keep trying to post this link, but every time I do, it pops up as a link not found. Wtf, feds?
 
2014-03-17 05:11:39 AM  

wildcardjack: Well, it does seem that every attention deficient kid can find endless amounts for something engaging like a videogame, which must be hyperactivity.

I was a horrible student who never did his homework and aced tests. It took until college to find homework interesting enough to do. I've played Half-Life games straight through. I don't touch WoW or other things like that because I know I'd lose months. I played Candy Crush to level 215, which I think is the last level because it's a total fark you.

I've done a six hour exam and finished early. I've done a twelve hour day in a VFR air traffic control tower. But I live in a sty because I can't focus on cleaning for an hour.


"Hyperfocus," actually.
 
2014-03-17 05:15:55 AM  
I have the feeling the good doctor did not come to his conclusion based on the scientific method.
 
2014-03-17 05:16:34 AM  

Polyhazard: wildcardjack: Well, it does seem that every attention deficient kid can find endless amounts for something engaging like a videogame, which must be hyperactivity.

I was a horrible student who never did his homework and aced tests. It took until college to find homework interesting enough to do. I've played Half-Life games straight through. I don't touch WoW or other things like that because I know I'd lose months. I played Candy Crush to level 215, which I think is the last level because it's a total fark you.

I've done a six hour exam and finished early. I've done a twelve hour day in a VFR air traffic control tower. But I live in a sty because I can't focus on cleaning for an hour.

"Hyperfocus," actually.


I keep trying to post this link, but every time I do, it pops up as a link not found. Wtf, feds?
 
2014-03-17 05:17:44 AM  
Dr. Richard Saul is a Behavioral Neurologist practicing in the Chicago area. His book,ADHD Does Not Exist, is published by HarperCollins


aaaaand I was right. It's just a book advertisement.
 
2014-03-17 05:19:15 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: I learned to hyper-caffeinate myself when I need to slow down and concentrate. I took Adderal for a little while, but stopped that shiat after I found myself doing lesson plans for 3-4 hours at a time, and not even realizing how much time had passed.


Really? I can't do more than 2 cups of tea or it will make me hyper; the doc recommends not using caffeine at all, but it became necessary in the morning once I passed 50 (I'm 58).
Just goes to show how there's a spectrum of the ADD and ADHD disorders.
I was a chef most of my life - a perfect job for that disorder. I didn't need to medicate it until later in life - there are many ways to teach yourself to rein in some of the symptoms. Was kind of funny when after 3yrs of my being on meds my mom (who is out of state, see her in summers) read an article on ADHD and wanted to see me to tell me I had it lol. I'm sure that made her feel vindicated for the frustration I caused her as a child.

/if the meds make you speed, either your taking too much, or don't have a disorder
//not judging wanting to speed
 
2014-03-17 05:24:35 AM  

namatad: so drugs are being used to treat symptoms, rather than tests being done to determine if there is some sort of underlying condition and then treating that condition?

COLOR ME SHOCKED
Especially given the terrible health care in the US.


CSB
I had undiagnosed hashimoto's (hypothyroidism) for probably 10 years.
ooo depression? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep problems? lets put you on meds
ooo weight gain? well you are just lazy
ooo hypertension? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep apnea? lets put you on a machine or something

Even after being put on hormone replacement, the doctor was under dosing me, because they are TERRIFIED of going over. LOL

FFS, once I FINALLY was properly treated, oh LOOK, my sleep problems went away, my depression went away, my weight improved, my hypertension improved.

All at the cost of a generic pill and proper testing.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

TL;DR - be in charge of your own medical health, because no one else is
/csb


Non-specific symptoms are non-specific.
 
2014-03-17 05:26:34 AM  
How else am I supposed to get my feel-good pills legally?
 It's not surprising that more young adults are being diagnosed with ADHD, anxiety,insomnia etc.

That's how you get the good drugs.
 
2014-03-17 05:31:40 AM  
"Kids are different today," I hear every mother say.
Junior needs something today to calm him down.
And though he's not really ill, there's a little yellow pill.
She goes running for the shelter
Of her mother's little helper,
And it helps her on her way.
Gets her through her busy day.
 
2014-03-17 05:36:53 AM  
Back in my day...

[Kid]: I don't wanna do homework let's ride bikes no wait I want to watch TV let's gogeticecream--

Adult soundly and vigorously beats the kid until he can't sit down for a week without screaming.

[Kid, wiping tears away]: Know what? Think I'll finish that homework now.

Nowadays...

[Kid]: I wanna play XBox, no I'm bored Imma play Minecraft now I need to update my facebook I'm goingtogowatchTV--

[Adult]: Oh, poor Ashleigh. Here, mommy will write a note to your teacher telling her you simply can't do any homework. Sit right down and play this new video game I bought you and I'll go make you some gluten-free vegan snacks. And don't forget to take your happy pills.

Now get off my lawn!
 
2014-03-17 05:38:43 AM  
I was diagnosed as ADHD-primarily inattentive a few months ago. I didn't even know it existed. Still afraid to try the drugs because a new article like this comes out every few months.
 
2014-03-17 05:43:02 AM  

ajax6677: I was diagnosed as ADHD-primarily inattentive a few months ago. I didn't even know it existed. Still afraid to try the drugs because a new article like this comes out every few months.


If a doctor prescribed you something and it doesn't feel right then go to another doctor. Preferably a specialist who can tell you beyond a shadow of doubt what is going on.
 
2014-03-17 05:46:14 AM  
What's worse is all the adults running around claiming to have Adult ADD just because they don't like to be bored and have constant access to shiat on their phones.

No one likes to be bored, get over yourselves.
 
2014-03-17 05:47:21 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Back in my day...

[Kid]: I don't wanna do homework let's ride bikes no wait I want to watch TV let's gogeticecream--

Adult soundly and vigorously beats the kid until he can't sit down for a week without screaming.

[Kid, wiping tears away]: Know what? Think I'll finish that homework now.

Nowadays...

[Kid]: I wanna play XBox, no I'm bored Imma play Minecraft now I need to update my facebook I'm goingtogowatchTV--

[Adult]: Oh, poor Ashleigh. Here, mommy will write a note to your teacher telling her you simply can't do any homework. Sit right down and play this new video game I bought you and I'll go make you some gluten-free vegan snacks. And don't forget to take your happy pills.

Now get off my lawn!


Yeah, back in the day, we'd just blame the kids for being lazy.  It's much better to blame people for their illnesses.  Like with "alcoholism."

Stupid drunks.  Stupid lazy kids.  They all just need to be scared straight through trauma.
 
2014-03-17 05:47:44 AM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Angela Lansbury's Merkin: But if you stop prescribing kids ADHD medications, where am I going to find cheap amphetamines?

This.

When I was in college, we used to have to hang out at the truck stops to find speed for cramming and finals. Now these kids these days just go to the doc and say they have a little problem concentrating.

/lawn, off, you know how it is.



Never trolled the truck stops, but I do remember mini-thins were very popular on campus during finals weeks.
 
2014-03-17 05:50:48 AM  

ajax6677: I was diagnosed as ADHD-primarily inattentive a few months ago. I didn't even know it existed. Still afraid to try the drugs because a new article like this comes out every few months.


That's just another, newer way to say "ADD."
 
2014-03-17 06:00:13 AM  
Not only do I have ADHD. but I also have celiac disease. WebMD says so!
 
2014-03-17 06:01:45 AM  
When my son was in 4th grade, his dad and I were called in for a conference with his teacher. She told us that he was suffering from ADHD (didn't realize she was a doctor) and that his behaviors were holding him and her class back. My son was an A & B student, so I was flabbergasted.

She explained that this 'behavior' of his was him being 'chatty' in class.

Chatty.

She then went on to insist that we see a doctor about a prescription for him. As you can imagine, his father and I were stunned. Naturally, we refused to comply and asked that our son be put in someone else's class. When we got home, he got the talking to, the stink-eye and grounded for a week because of his distracting behavior in class. Wasn't a problem after that.

Do these conditions exist? I won't even argue that. Believe what you wish. But, there is no denying that the drugs to deal with said conditions are overprescribed like mad.

I almost think it's laziness on the part of adults. These are very serious medications and probably shouldn't be tossed out there like beads at a parade.
 
2014-03-17 06:02:55 AM  
I've taught 1000's of high school students -- and I can definitely say there's a few that exhibited some easily identifiable brain disorder.  If you tried to talk to them 1-on-1, you could actually see their minds wander to just about any and everything.  I've actually wondered if they possessed a mild form of Autism.

Having said that, about 98% of the students diagnosed with ADHD were just dis-tractable with minds that would mature normally if given time (or better parents).  I always felt like these were the most tragic cases.  Their brains were obviously underdeveloped, but the students were drugged into submission -- stunting the growth of their minds (or at least slowing is considerably).

The give-away is if the students _can_ focus on some things, but not school.  For example, I recall a parent telling me their child was ADHD so could not focus on math for more then 10 minutes, and then 30 seconds later telling me their child plays video games for 8-10 hours straight at home.  That's not a focusing issue -- that's a motivation issue.  To be blunt, it's bad parenting.

The weirdest outcome of the ADHD epidemic is how some people have decided that it's actually a gift.  They'll brag about how their ADHD minds are superior to "normal" people because they're better multi-taskers or some bizarre bullshiat.  It's complete an utter nonsense.  Look, if you have ADHD, you're mind is underdeveloped -- you're not the next incarnation of the x-men.
 
2014-03-17 06:06:02 AM  

log_jammin: Dr. Richard Saul is a Behavioral Neurologist practicing in the Chicago area. His book,ADHD Does Not Exist, is published by HarperCollins


aaaaand I was right. It's just a book advertisement.


Came here to say THIS.
 
2014-03-17 06:06:46 AM  
s/you're/your/p
 
2014-03-17 06:07:47 AM  

ajax6677: I was diagnosed as ADHD-primarily inattentive a few months ago. I didn't even know it existed. Still afraid to try the drugs because a new article like this comes out every few months.


This guy is selling a book.

http://www.amazon.com/ADHD-Does-Exist-Richard-Saul/dp/006226673X

In the book he does NOT say ADHD doesn't exist, you just gives it a new name.

People who write articles like these are out to sell you something and make a name for themselves, and they do it by making you afraid of "main stream medicine".
 
2014-03-17 06:10:13 AM  

Blink: I've taught 1000's of high school students -- and I can definitely say there's a few that exhibited some easily identifiable brain disorder.  If you tried to talk to them 1-on-1, you could actually see their minds wander to just about any and everything.  I've actually wondered if they possessed a mild form of Autism.

Having said that, about 98% of the students diagnosed with ADHD were just dis-tractable with minds that would mature normally if given time (or better parents).  I always felt like these were the most tragic cases.  Their brains were obviously underdeveloped, but the students were drugged into submission -- stunting the growth of their minds (or at least slowing is considerably).

The give-away is if the students _can_ focus on some things, but not school.  For example, I recall a parent telling me their child was ADHD so could not focus on math for more then 10 minutes, and then 30 seconds later telling me their child plays video games for 8-10 hours straight at home.  That's not a focusing issue -- that's a motivation issue.  To be blunt, it's bad parenting.

The weirdest outcome of the ADHD epidemic is how some people have decided that it's actually a gift.  They'll brag about how their ADHD minds are superior to "normal" people because they're better multi-taskers or some bizarre bullshiat.  It's complete an utter nonsense.  Look, if you have ADHD, you're mind is underdeveloped -- you're not the next incarnation of the x-men.


That "giveaway" is like one of major symptoms. Supposedly it's a coping mechanism for dopamine deficiency. It helps to override the constant brain chatter.
 
2014-03-17 06:23:13 AM  
As we all know, science is determined by a single doctor making claims in a non-peer-reviewed venue. Oh, and that doctor reaches his conclusions based on anecdotal experiences. Yep, this guy's definitely the last word on ADHD...
 
2014-03-17 06:23:36 AM  

sendtodave: Prank Call of Cthulhu: Back in my day...

[Kid]: I don't wanna do homework let's ride bikes no wait I want to watch TV let's gogeticecream--

Adult soundly and vigorously beats the kid until he can't sit down for a week without screaming.

[Kid, wiping tears away]: Know what? Think I'll finish that homework now.

Nowadays...

[Kid]: I wanna play XBox, no I'm bored Imma play Minecraft now I need to update my facebook I'm goingtogowatchTV--

[Adult]: Oh, poor Ashleigh. Here, mommy will write a note to your teacher telling her you simply can't do any homework. Sit right down and play this new video game I bought you and I'll go make you some gluten-free vegan snacks. And don't forget to take your happy pills.

Now get off my lawn!

Yeah, back in the day, we'd just blame the kids for being lazy.  It's much better to blame people for their illnesses.  Like with "alcoholism."

Stupid drunks.  Stupid lazy kids.  They all just need to be scared straight through trauma.



Yet amazingly, this "epidemic" didn't rear it's ugly head until the late 80s- early 90s, when drug companies needed to push their Flinstones Chewable Crank.

For every 1 child that actually needs ritalin, there are at least 30 who don't and are prescribed it anyway because parents have given up on being parents and are looking for a magic pill solution.
 
2014-03-17 06:26:25 AM  
How dare this charlatan question the pharmaceutical industry's revenue stre-, uh...
How dare this charlatan question the disorder that effects the lives of millions of Americans?
 
2014-03-17 06:26:35 AM  

log_jammin: ajax6677: I was diagnosed as ADHD-primarily inattentive a few months ago. I didn't even know it existed. Still afraid to try the drugs because a new article like this comes out every few months.

This guy is selling a book.

http://www.amazon.com/ADHD-Does-Exist-Richard-Saul/dp/006226673X

In the book he does NOT say ADHD doesn't exist, you just gives it a new name.

People who write articles like these are out to sell you something and make a name for themselves, and they do it by making you afraid of "main stream medicine".


What sucks is that it works. I adore science. I love reading about it, even though I'm just enjoying it on a layman's terms. But this fear mongering garbage really throws the doubt in there. For example, I *know* that the vaccine - autism link is bunk, but dammit if I wasn't terrified for my little boy every time he gets a shot. If I can get ruffled knowing it's false, it's not surprising that the typical incurious American eats it up without even a question.


My ADHD-PI diagnosis is very recent so I'm trying to do my own reading so I can be comfortable before trying these kinds of meds. I want to find a happy medium between blind trust and blatant paranoia. For my own sanity I need to stick to scientific papers instead of the daily rag.
 
2014-03-17 06:26:51 AM  
Hmm I thought It was 1 soma for a break, 2 soma for a vacation... Damn how did that go...

Yeah it's a load of crap. Sugar sugar sugar caffeine!!!!
 
2014-03-17 06:28:28 AM  

namatad: so drugs are being used to treat symptoms, rather than tests being done to determine if there is some sort of underlying condition and then treating that condition?

COLOR ME SHOCKED
Especially given the terrible health care in the US.


CSB
I had undiagnosed hashimoto's (hypothyroidism) for probably 10 years.
ooo depression? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep problems? lets put you on meds
ooo weight gain? well you are just lazy
ooo hypertension? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep apnea? lets put you on a machine or something

Even after being put on hormone replacement, the doctor was under dosing me, because they are TERRIFIED of going over. LOL

FFS, once I FINALLY was properly treated, oh LOOK, my sleep problems went away, my depression went away, my weight improved, my hypertension improved.

All at the cost of a generic pill and proper testing.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

TL;DR - be in charge of your own medical health, because no one else is
/csb


I have very bad depression (major depression disorder) and when i went back to the psychiatrist after 5 years of meds (because it was getting worse) the first thing he tested was my thyriod. Which turned out to be ok.i might live in a little backwater country, but it seems to me our medical staff/professionals are ok.
 
2014-03-17 06:31:40 AM  
Oh god, another "I think I'm smarter than scientific consensus because I am more curmudgeony than you" author.

I remember when Time was respected...
 
2014-03-17 06:32:59 AM  

JerkyMeat: Ok, that may be true, but there are few people I know first hand who are dazzled by shiny objects.


He went to Jared!
 
2014-03-17 06:33:53 AM  
It was amazing how ADHD symptoms went away when my nieces and nephews went a day without soda, Kool-Aid, candy, etc.  Maybe people should try that.  Oh wait, that is effort, and refraining from knuckling under to every demand rfom the child.  Can't be having with that.

And the FDA has approved Red 40, can't possibly be that toxic muck, either.
 
2014-03-17 06:35:02 AM  

Laobaojun: How dare this charlatan question the pharmaceutical industry's revenue stre-, uh...
How dare this charlatan question the disorder that effects the lives of millions of Americans?


It...  causes the lives of millions of Americans?

Or did you, in your eminently precise fashion, mean "affects"?
 
2014-03-17 06:35:03 AM  

Natsumi: namatad: so drugs are being used to treat symptoms, rather than tests being done to determine if there is some sort of underlying condition and then treating that condition?

COLOR ME SHOCKED
Especially given the terrible health care in the US.


CSB
I had undiagnosed hashimoto's (hypothyroidism) for probably 10 years.
ooo depression? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep problems? lets put you on meds
ooo weight gain? well you are just lazy
ooo hypertension? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep apnea? lets put you on a machine or something

Even after being put on hormone replacement, the doctor was under dosing me, because they are TERRIFIED of going over. LOL

FFS, once I FINALLY was properly treated, oh LOOK, my sleep problems went away, my depression went away, my weight improved, my hypertension improved.

All at the cost of a generic pill and proper testing.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

TL;DR - be in charge of your own medical health, because no one else is
/csb

I have very bad depression (major depression disorder) and when i went back to the psychiatrist after 5 years of meds (because it was getting worse) the first thing he tested was my thyriod. Which turned out to be ok.i might live in a little backwater country, but it seems to me our medical staff/professionals are ok.


Did they test anything else? I feel like there are two sides. You either get the doc that throws ALL THE MEDS!! at you to see what sticks, or you get the lazy doc that won't do anything without pulling teeth. Neither of them spend more than ten minutes with you. The doc that actually works with you for a real solution is like the holy fricken grail.
 
2014-03-17 06:35:49 AM  

Laobaojun: It was amazing how ADHD symptoms went away when my nieces and nephews went a day without soda, Kool-Aid, candy, etc.  Maybe people should try that.  Oh wait, that is effort, and refraining from knuckling under to every demand rfom the child.  Can't be having with that.

And the FDA has approved Red 40, can't possibly be that toxic muck, either.


Sugar causes drowsiness, not hyperactivity.

Damn, but you're an idiot.
 
2014-03-17 06:36:47 AM  

JerkyMeat: Ok, that may be true, but there are few people I know first hand who are dazzled


I call those people "management"
 
2014-03-17 06:37:30 AM  

JerkyMeat: Ok, that may be true, but there are few people I know first hand who are dazzled by shiny objects.


I call those people "management"
 
2014-03-17 06:40:15 AM  

ajax6677: That "giveaway" is like one of major symptoms. Supposedly it's a coping mechanism for dopamine deficiency. It helps to override the constant brain chatter.


Exactly.  If you make a symptom that can fit any person, then you've essentially met the requirements of a fortune teller:  "I see love in your future.  And disappointment."  etc.  If you can focus on 3-4 things, you can _learn_ to focus on more.  It's the inability to focus on anything that's the true issue.  Kids that can play 8 straight hours of a game aren't lacking in the ability to focus.  They can only focus on something that gives them an easy reward.  Given time, they can grow beyond this -- without medication.
 
2014-03-17 06:44:14 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: I learned to hyper-caffeinate myself when I need to slow down and concentrate. I took Adderal for a little while, but stopped that shiat after I found myself doing lesson plans for 3-4 hours at a time, and not even realizing how much time had passed.


Coffee works but the effects linger and the sleep interruption causes its own concentration problems the following day.  This is not such a problem with pills because when they wear off you can actually sleep.  The best results with pills are when you have a task that needs hours of uninterrupted attention with minimal task switching.  For me it was best to swallow the pill and begin working on your task immediately before it goes into effect because I tended to get into "The Zone" on whatever I was working on when the meds started to take effect.  If I was goofing around or task switching when the meds hit then it would be difficult to achieve the desired effect for the rest of the day.  I went back to caffeine and just suffer the sleep consequences.
 
2014-03-17 06:44:53 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Yep, a kid with actual ADD is bouncing off the walls farking constantly.
 
2014-03-17 06:47:37 AM  
CSB: Undiagnosed ADHD my whole life. Teachers recommended it to my mom when I was a kid, but she wasn't into the mumbo-jumbo of the day. Flash forward to my late 30s and my neighbor ends up being a child psychologist who refers me to a colleague to get "tested". Long story short, taking the minimal dose of generic methylphenidate extended-release now and it has completely changed my life.

So these days when I'm having basic conversations with people my mind isn't busy matching up songs with every other word they say, while also constantly finishing their sentences and subbing words I think would have worked better. I was probably the biggest skeptic until this thing actually worked for me. Now I see a shrink every 6 months and he writes me massive scripts that last that long.

My work and home desks have gone from being plastered in tiny post-it notes to looking like a normal persons. I've learned to "manage" over the years, but goddamn do these pills make my day and life sooooo much easier. If I would have been on this stuff in school I probably would have been able to accomplish a lot more in life, or at least it wouldn't have been a constant and endless Secret Life of Walter Mitty struggle.
 
2014-03-17 06:51:42 AM  
I needed Ritalin to get through High School. I do not think I could have gotten through High School without it, because of the sheer amount of simple memorization and repetition that could not hold my attention. The moment I graduated and started college I no longer needed the drugs; not because I had suddenly changed but because college was structured differently and I could pursue my interests instead of having my interests dictated to me.
 
2014-03-17 06:51:59 AM  

maram500: ADD and DHD definitely exist. I've seen it. ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) also exists.


The OOD, however, do not exist...

static2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-03-17 06:57:38 AM  

JoelWhy: As we all know, science is determined by a single doctor making claims in a non-peer-reviewed venue. Oh, and that doctor reaches his conclusions based on anecdotal experiences. Yep, this guy's definitely the last word on ADHD...



Search "peer reviewed falsified data" in google scholar and you'll find significant of evidence that peer reviewed venues are a lot more dangerous than arguing from admitted anecdata.  Some research indicates that 60% or more of published journal articles contain some form of falsified or fraudulent data or analysis, and that this is higher in psychological and biological sciences.

One example you can do yourself is to just find 100 journal articles and plot the reported p values of their statistics.  You'll find a strange and noteworthy bump over expected value of p values just UNDER .05 (or .10, depending on the field and the standard used).  Meaning when a result is statistically significant, it is more likely than it should be that it JUST MANAGES to get under the bar.  People are fudging data to get this result.

There are more sophisticated measures of finding falsification and other fraudulence.  To say nothing of publication biases, funding biases, or anonymous survey data which indicates significant known fraudulence.

Point is, be careful what "peer reviewed venues" you trust.  Really, don't trust any.  If you haven't read the paper and examined the argumentation AND the reported results far more carefully than is generally done, the odds aren't good that it's reliable.
 
2014-03-17 07:00:13 AM  
They put my oldest on Ritalin when he was a young boy.  I wish to God I had never let them do it.  It caused (and I have no scientific proof) lots of problems for him later in life IMHO.  I think autism is over diagnosed too.  I'll probably catch flack for that comment.
 
2014-03-17 07:02:48 AM  

ajax6677: I was diagnosed as ADHD-primarily inattentive a few months ago. I didn't even know it existed. Still afraid to try the drugs because a new article like this comes out every few months.


If you have symptoms and you can find a class, your insurance should pay for dialectical behavior therapy - commonly called DBT. It's mostly about training yourself to be mindful, living in the moment. It is really based on Eastern philosophies (think zen). It takes a while, but you can handle symptoms better than you might imagine, tho we all have good and bad days. Use it all the time and it will be ingrained.

It helps a lot.
 
2014-03-17 07:03:07 AM  

ajax6677: My ADHD-PI diagnosis is very recent so I'm trying to do my own reading so I can be comfortable before trying these kinds of meds.


why not just get some other doctors opinions?

I mean, If you want to know if your mechanic knows what he's talking about you would talk to other mechanics and not read up on alternators on your own.

I'm not saying the following as an attack against you, it's just an general statement about people as a whole. But these days people seem to have a real hard time listening to the experts in their field, and instead think that we can read a few few articles, or ask a question on a message board, and that's just as good as the opinion of someone who has a degree in medicine(or whatever field that relates to  the subject), and years of experience.

Personally speaking, I'd feel much more comfortable with the opinions of 2-3 doctors, than I would with my own research. Hell. I make enough mistakes on topics I know a lot about. Myself doubt in researching whether or not to take certain meds would be overpowering for me.
 
2014-03-17 07:06:50 AM  

aharown: Search "peer reviewed falsified data" in google scholar and you'll find significant of evidence that peer reviewed venues are a lot more dangerous than arguing from admitted anecdata.   Some research indicates that 60% or more of published journal articles contain some form of falsified or fraudulent data or analysis, and that this is higher in psychological and biological sciences.


where was that research published, and why did you choose to believe it?

also getting published doesn't mean it is fact or completely correct. That's is where the "peer review" comes into play.
 
2014-03-17 07:07:03 AM  

Enigmamf: Oh god, another "I think I'm smarter than scientific consensus because I am more curmudgeony than you" author.

I remember when Time was respected...


In hindsight I think it is fair to say that Time was respected because sources of more accurate information required an expensive subscription or a trip to the library.  The Internet changed everything.
 
2014-03-17 07:10:04 AM  
i57.tinypic.com
 
2014-03-17 07:12:50 AM  
Everyone knows it was invented by the drug companies and the whiny liberals.
 
2014-03-17 07:14:45 AM  
i59.tinypic.com
 
2014-03-17 07:17:30 AM  

williesleg: Everyone knows it was invented by the drug companies and the whiny liberals.


because if there are two groups who get along really really well, it's drug companies and the whiny liberals.
 
2014-03-17 07:19:43 AM  
So you're telling me it's on the "spaz" spectrum?
 
2014-03-17 07:23:56 AM  

FnkyTwn: CSB: Undiagnosed ADHD my whole life. Teachers recommended it to my mom when I was a kid, but she wasn't into the mumbo-jumbo of the day. Flash forward to my late 30s and my neighbor ends up being a child psychologist who refers me to a colleague to get "tested". Long story short, taking the minimal dose of generic methylphenidate extended-release now and it has completely changed my life.

So these days when I'm having basic conversations with people my mind isn't busy matching up songs with every other word they say, while also constantly finishing their sentences and subbing words I think would have worked better. I was probably the biggest skeptic until this thing actually worked for me. Now I see a shrink every 6 months and he writes me massive scripts that last that long.

My work and home desks have gone from being plastered in tiny post-it notes to looking like a normal persons. I've learned to "manage" over the years, but goddamn do these pills make my day and life sooooo much easier. If I would have been on this stuff in school I probably would have been able to accomplish a lot more in life, or at least it wouldn't have been a constant and endless Secret Life of Walter Mitty struggle.


I know EXACTLY what you mean.

I'm glad you're getting to expirience real life now. Glad I am too.
 
2014-03-17 07:36:46 AM  
I blame editing.  No, seriously, watch a TV show from the 1950s or 1960s (except  H.R. Pufnstuf) and then watch one from the 1990s or 2000s, and compare the number of edits.  Watch a music video from the 1990s or later and count the number of times there is an edit.  The minds of young children are being conditioned to "information" being presented to them quickly and in smaller doses.  And when the get older their minds have a hard time hadling anything different.   That is my personal theory, based solely on beer.
 
2014-03-17 07:43:23 AM  

Stoj: For those with ADHD, he doesn't say that the behaviors & symptoms don't exist, he says something something you're reading the next post now anyway so whatever.


That was good for my first laugh today, but I can't remember why it was funny.
 
2014-03-17 07:44:15 AM  

JerkyMeat: Ok, that may be true, but there are few people I know first hand who are dazzled by shiny objects.


And the latest "news" about the Kardashians?

/analogous
//insert own joke here
 
2014-03-17 07:48:30 AM  
A serious question about these drugs: what if your kids is an above average student without the drugs, but closer to exceptional when he takes them?

Are there cases, especially with boys, where the drugs are a substitute for behavior modification that could achieve the same result? Should an improvement in school performance be seen as proof that the drug is appropriate therapy?
 
2014-03-17 07:49:27 AM  
Really? You think that? Then go publish a proper paper full of proper research on the subject so it can be properly peer-reviewed by other people with the proper credentials.

Oh, wait. That's not going to sell your book like informal Time magazine write-ups and call-ins to "Rover's Morning Glory".

Scumbag.
 
2014-03-17 07:53:05 AM  

Animatronik: Are there cases, especially with boys, where the drugs are a substitute for behavior modification that could achieve the same result? Should an improvement in school performance be seen as proof that the drug is appropriate therapy?


That's true of every drug that has ever existed. Some people endlessly take pain killers when they should be going to physical therapy instead. There are tons of people on cholesterol and blood pressure medications who wouldn't need it if they just exercised regularly and stopped eating so much crap. Same goes for people on diabetes treatments that could manage their disease with a proper diet but just don't.

ADHD drugs aren't magically immune to the problem of lazy people taking shortcuts with them, of course there are people who are using them as quick alternatives to a more "correct" and permanent solution.
 
2014-03-17 07:55:06 AM  

skozlaw: Really? You think that? Then go publish a proper paper full of proper research on the subject so it can be properly peer-reviewed by other people with the proper credentials.

Oh, wait. That's not going to sell your book like informal Time magazine write-ups and call-ins to "Rover's Morning Glory".

Scumbag.


Well it proves that the credentials are not always to be trusted.  I wonder if he actually treats patients.
 
2014-03-17 07:56:07 AM  

sendtodave: namatad: so drugs are being used to treat symptoms, rather than tests being done to determine if there is some sort of underlying condition and then treating that condition?

COLOR ME SHOCKED
Especially given the terrible health care in the US.


CSB
I had undiagnosed hashimoto's (hypothyroidism) for probably 10 years.
ooo depression? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep problems? lets put you on meds
ooo weight gain? well you are just lazy
ooo hypertension? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep apnea? lets put you on a machine or something

Even after being put on hormone replacement, the doctor was under dosing me, because they are TERRIFIED of going over. LOL

FFS, once I FINALLY was properly treated, oh LOOK, my sleep problems went away, my depression went away, my weight improved, my hypertension improved.

All at the cost of a generic pill and proper testing.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

TL;DR - be in charge of your own medical health, because no one else is
/csb

Non-specific symptoms are non-specific.


If only there was a profession that employed the thorough gathering of data and proper testing and analysis instead of rushing to dispense meds and get to the next cash cow patient.
 
2014-03-17 07:58:34 AM  
disapproves
www.mytinyphone.com
 
2014-03-17 08:01:59 AM  
Yes there is ADHD and ADD and Autism, no one is denying that. What this MD is saying is NOT EVERYONE HAS IT. Too many people are diagnosed with it. My neighbor told me that someone at school told her that her kids need medication. Her kids don't need medicine they need 1) better parents and 2) an ass whooping!

The pharmaceutical industry is vicious. I know. I have a legitimate neurological disorder (seizures) and I've been on anti-seizure meds since 1987. I also had to have major surgery. My short term memory loss isn't ADHD related, but I bet there is a neurologist out there that would say it is.

Parents need to learn how to say NO! They need to learn that reading is FUNdamental not TV. Music is relaxing, not a pill.
 
2014-03-17 08:10:09 AM  
Cut out the sugar and the problem goes away.

The more you know....
 
2014-03-17 08:16:26 AM  

allylloyd: Her kids don't need medicine they need 1) better parents and 2) an ass whooping!


Oh hey! It seems your mini-strokes/seizures have managed to stick your mind back in the 80s! Welcome to 2014! Spanking is not only frowned upon, it's also borderline illegal. Also, as a person who got plenty of spankings in the 70s and 80s (I broke a paddle with my ass in the 2nd grade, but that was mostly because my dad had drilled too many air holes in it to cut down on wind resistance), I know it's about as effective as throwing somebody in jail without a way to better yourself. It only tends to make sneaky behavior more sneaky.

Would ADHD meds have cut down on my parents frustration level with me as a child? Who's really to say, but surely it would have been worth a try seeing as how months of restriction and regular beatings spankings managed to only make me a smarter criminal.

/I have yet to spank my own kids
 
2014-03-17 08:17:36 AM  
So, according to a legion of Fark medical experts, over-diagnosed and over-medicated = it doesn't exist. At all. All righty then.

Of course, patients and/or their parents should try behavioral modification, cognitive therapy, good ol' fashioned discipline, and running around outside.  But some people have a biochemical issue that requires medication to compensate.  You shouldn't medicate just because a kid's parents and teachers are sick of dealing with his sh*t and are too lazy to try working it out with him, but if you've tried everything else and the kid still has impaired function, you're not going to change neurochemistry by more yelling and spanking.

An analogy: If your cholesterol is still high after you've tried modifying your diet and exercising, you might need medication.  The medication is not a substitute for the other measures, and it is not universally or equally beneficial to all patients.
 
2014-03-17 08:20:57 AM  

JoieD'Zen: sendtodave: namatad: so drugs are being used to treat symptoms, rather than tests being done to determine if there is some sort of underlying condition and then treating that condition?

COLOR ME SHOCKED
Especially given the terrible health care in the US.


CSB
I had undiagnosed hashimoto's (hypothyroidism) for probably 10 years.
ooo depression? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep problems? lets put you on meds
ooo weight gain? well you are just lazy
ooo hypertension? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep apnea? lets put you on a machine or something

Even after being put on hormone replacement, the doctor was under dosing me, because they are TERRIFIED of going over. LOL

FFS, once I FINALLY was properly treated, oh LOOK, my sleep problems went away, my depression went away, my weight improved, my hypertension improved.

All at the cost of a generic pill and proper testing.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

TL;DR - be in charge of your own medical health, because no one else is
/csb

Non-specific symptoms are non-specific.

If only there was a profession that employed the thorough gathering of data and proper testing and analysis instead of rushing to dispense meds and get to the next cash cow patient.


My wife and one of my daughters have Hashimoto's.  Your CSB is exactly what they went through as well.  The problem is that there is not a single blood test to detect it coupled with a cool drug to "cure" it.

Along with Armour Thyroid (not synthroid!!!) and Gluten Free they both are mostly normal.  Well, as normal as can be expected...let's face it, my wife CHOSE me...my daughter is stuck with me for a few more years, then she can ignore me for real.

/I am ADHD and would be getting a kick out of these comments if I could manage to finish any of them
//Did finish TFA and actually agree with the neurologist
 
2014-03-17 08:29:38 AM  
I am not convinced it entirely doesn't exist, but I certainly believe it is highly over-diagnosed for anything outside of the normal. It's treated as a catch-all for abnormal behavior of most types and they just throw drugs at the problem instead of looking at possible parenting or other issues.
 
2014-03-17 08:31:19 AM  
Is this where we meet up to discuss one doctor's opinion versus hundreds of thousands of the opposite opinion?
 
2014-03-17 08:36:10 AM  

Cerebral Ballsy: Is this where we meet up to discuss one doctor's opinion versus hundreds of thousands paid to have the opposite opinion?


FTFY.  Hate to sound like one of those anti-vaccine nuts, but it's a pretty established practice in the last few decades to create syndromes and disorders to fit a drug.  Of course, my memory's a bit hazy because I was up all night with restless leg syndrome and No 24 Hour disorder.
 
2014-03-17 08:36:33 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


DING DING DING!

We have teh winnar!

ADHD is overdiagnosed. Some of it is lazy parents, some of it is lazy teachers, lots of it is all sorts of other conditions, both physical and mental. And careful, thorough review of each patient's symptoms and circumstances SHOULD be done to find out what is really going on there, but rarely is it actually done. However, don't try telling those of us who actually have to deal with the condition, including as adults, that it's made up. It sure as hell isn't.

/has ADHD
//actually went through all sorts of testing and examination as a kid before they finally made it a definite diagnosis
 
2014-03-17 08:37:40 AM  

allylloyd: What this MD is saying is NOT EVERYONE HAS IT.


Then what do they have?  And, if whatever they have is treatable with speed, why not do so?

If it walks like a duck and something something.

Even for behavior modification, sure.  Because, in case people missed the memo, we can't beat children into compliance anymore.  So, uh, what else motivates kids?

If it's dope them up, or let them fail?  Fark it, dope them up.
 
2014-03-17 08:38:15 AM  

sendtodave: Prank Call of Cthulhu: Back in my day...

[Kid]: I don't wanna do homework let's ride bikes no wait I want to watch TV let's gogeticecream--

Adult soundly and vigorously beats the kid until he can't sit down for a week without screaming.

[Kid, wiping tears away]: Know what? Think I'll finish that homework now.

Nowadays...

[Kid]: I wanna play XBox, no I'm bored Imma play Minecraft now I need to update my facebook I'm goingtogowatchTV--

[Adult]: Oh, poor Ashleigh. Here, mommy will write a note to your teacher telling her you simply can't do any homework. Sit right down and play this new video game I bought you and I'll go make you some gluten-free vegan snacks. And don't forget to take your happy pills.

Now get off my lawn!

Yeah, back in the day, we'd just blame the kids for being lazy.  It's much better to blame people for their illnesses.  Like with "alcoholism."

Stupid drunks.  Stupid lazy kids.  They all just need to be scared straight through trauma.


I like the cut of your jib. It's very Homer-esque. Homer Simpson, that is. It carries a simple truth that everyone can relate to.

Stupid druggies, they need to just stop using drugs.

Lazy kids need to do their work.

Poor people need to stop being poor.

Stupid sexy Flanders.
 
2014-03-17 08:41:58 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Angela Lansbury's Merkin: But if you stop prescribing kids ADHD medications, where am I going to find cheap amphetamines?

Really?
[img.fark.net image 512x288]


img.fark.net

That's a pic from the scene where he's making ricin, not meth.


/wonder if that's a sign of ADHD?
 
2014-03-17 08:41:58 AM  
I wonder how much great art is being suppressed with pharmaceuticals.  Van Gogh, Edgar Allen Poe, Hemingway, Dickinson - they'd all be drugged up today and wouldn't have put out jack shiat creatively.

Of course, of the four people I mentioned, two killed themselves, one died drunk in a gutter, and the fourth cut part of his ear off, but.... damn it I love The Raven.
 
2014-03-17 08:45:28 AM  
Pay no attention. Your farked up kid trumps all expert opinion on the subject.
 
2014-03-17 08:45:54 AM  

kokomo61: ecmoRandomNumbers: Angela Lansbury's Merkin: But if you stop prescribing kids ADHD medications, where am I going to find cheap amphetamines?

Really?
[img.fark.net image 512x288]

[img.fark.net image 512x288]

That's a pic from the scene where he's making ricin, not meth.


/wonder if that's a sign of ADHD?


Ricin would also help keep these kids from bouncing off the walls.  And it's single dose.
 
2014-03-17 08:47:12 AM  

plushpuppy: FishyFred: AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This person knows what's up.

/former overmedicated child
//occasional tutor of kids who really do need the pills

The biggest problem is if your child requires any extra help in school they must have a medical diagnosis


Or if your kid requires an amount of attentive parenting you find annoying. To be fair though, in many places you can't (or people find it socially unacceptable) to lock your kid out of the house until dinner time. You're also not supposed to let them ride bikes unattended, hit each other with sticks, fall out of trees, catch snakes, run around screaming like maniacs etc like kids used to do to burn off energy without you having to budget time to drive them some place and back, sit there watching them the whole time, pay for the gas, activity cost, etc, so I think in some ways parenting has gotten more difficult for people.
 
2014-03-17 08:48:11 AM  
I *DO* Suspect that ADHD, as we call it, is actually a spectrum of *different causes* that create simillar symptoms, and we really need to get at the root of figuring out what's actually going on so we can better help people.

This would explain why it seems to 'manifest' differently in different people. For instance, the best way I can describe my ADHD is not "Lol bored can't pay attention gonna daydream." It's not tuning out imporant things, it's the opposite. I *cannot* easily tune out external stimuli. Whatsoever. Which DOES give me the benefit of being a lot more aware of my environment, of being very good at finding lost objects, and a number of skills that would be of use in, say, a hunter-gatherer society.

This is not terribly useful in a typical classroom environment. Or, say, on a bus. (Pick out a conversation I'd rather not hear? TOO BAD CAN'T STOP HEARING IT. At a big party surrounded by white noise and thousands of conversation? BRAIN STARTS FREAKING OUT, TOO MUCH STIMULUS)

Thankfully, it does seem to be somewhat useful in a research environment...

(Which is why I think the variant I have may stem from genetic factors: After I got diagnosed*, we eventually came to realize that my mother, and the *entire side of my mother's family*, were ADHD.)

Prank

*(a diagnosis which involved a battery of tests and then a *multi week* double-blind trial where I would take a pill from a labeled bottle each day, and then my parents, teachers, and myself would fill out a survery on how I did. After about three weeks, they went back, looked at the days I did best and worst etc etc, and mapped them to which days I got varying doses of ritalin, and which days I got sugar pills)


Call of Cthulhu: [i59.tinypic.com image 519x699]


A) Ritalin is a stimulant. It's not farking thorazine.

B) While I agree a number of parents overmedicate, a lot try to medicate as a last resort. We basically tried an insane host of coping strategies (a number of which DO help me as an adult.)
 
2014-03-17 08:48:54 AM  
I wonder how many ADHD kids grow up and get diagnosed with fibromyalgia.
 
2014-03-17 08:49:57 AM  
Whoa, that formatting got screwed up.
 
2014-03-17 08:50:42 AM  

Persnickety: I wonder how many ADHD kids grow up and get diagnosed with fibromyalgia.


I wonder how many people that feel ADHD's a sham think Alzheimer's patients are just old people that aren't trying hard enough to remember stuff.

Stupid farking lazy old people.
 
2014-03-17 08:52:34 AM  

Persnickety: I wonder how many ADHD kids grow up and get diagnosed with fibromyalgia.


Ha ha!  because they're just hypochondriacs!

I guess what they really need years of therapy to attempt function correctly in society as opposed to pills.  Even as kids.

Because they're not really sick, just crazy!
 
2014-03-17 08:52:41 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


So you've met my youngest son!
 
2014-03-17 08:55:09 AM  

FnkyTwn: allylloyd: Her kids don't need medicine they need 1) better parents and 2) an ass whooping!

Oh hey! It seems your mini-strokes/seizures have managed to stick your mind back in the 80s! Welcome to 2014! Spanking is not only frowned upon, it's also borderline illegal. Also, as a person who got plenty of spankings in the 70s and 80s (I broke a paddle with my ass in the 2nd grade, but that was mostly because my dad had drilled too many air holes in it to cut down on wind resistance), I know it's about as effective as throwing somebody in jail without a way to better yourself. It only tends to make sneaky behavior more sneaky.

Would ADHD meds have cut down on my parents frustration level with me as a child? Who's really to say, but surely it would have been worth a try seeing as how months of restriction and regular beatings spankings managed to only make me a smarter criminal.

/I have yet to spank my own kids


These kids don't need medication! They are on their way to a juvenile detention center. Why? THEY HAVE A BAD PARENT! NOTICE I SAID THAT FIRST! Case in point, one day I asked them not to throw snowballs at my windows (broken windows suck!), I asked them to throw them at the house. The 5 year old girl said, "F You". I stepped outside and told her it's not nice to curse. Her mother ran out and punched me in the face. I had to call the police! These kids got this way from their MOTHER! Medication isn't going to cure bad parenting! Neither is sitting in a corner. But not being able to SIT DOWN in a corner, well, that's something else.

// My parents never hit me.
At a young age, I learned that a wooden spoon could be used for more than cooking!
 
2014-03-17 09:00:20 AM  
Wut?
 
2014-03-17 09:04:58 AM  
What America needs is to ends its practice of pharmacological Calvinism. If someone performs better on Ritalin or adderall they should be able to get it without needing to have a disease.
 
2014-03-17 09:06:35 AM  
who needs pills? ADHD is nothing 5 across the eyes wont fix,
 
2014-03-17 09:06:51 AM  
It doesn't exist? It's about farking time someone finally said that!

I've always more or less thought that everyone has ADHD. So it should just be called "normal"
 
2014-03-17 09:11:57 AM  

El Rollo Gigante: who needs pills? ADHD is nothing 5 across the eyes wont fix,


Do you come from another country, or just another decade?

Because in the US, slapping another person is considered battery.

Threatening to slap them is only considered assault.
 
2014-03-17 09:13:28 AM  
What about those of use with 17 of 18 symptoms? If we don't have ADHD, what do we have?
 
2014-03-17 09:14:24 AM  

ambercat: plushpuppy: FishyFred: AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This person knows what's up.

/former overmedicated child
//occasional tutor of kids who really do need the pills

The biggest problem is if your child requires any extra help in school they must have a medical diagnosis

Or if your kid requires an amount of attentive parenting you find annoying. To be fair though, in many places you can't (or people find it socially unacceptable) to lock your kid out of the house until dinner time. You're also not supposed to let them ride bikes unattended, hit each other with sticks, fall out of trees, catch snakes, run around screaming like maniacs etc like kids used to do to burn off energy without you having to budget time to drive them some place and back, sit there watching them the whole time, pay for the gas, activity cost, etc, so I think in some ways parenting has gotten more difficult for people.


This idealized vision of childhood (playing stickball, going on adventures, etc.) really only existed for around 40-50 years in the mid 20th century, and then mostly in suburban areas.  Before that, kids worked on the farm or in factories or at home cooking and cleaning and watching younger siblings.  The notion that parents of this supposedly wondrous era were both A) being wisely attentive to their kids while at the same time B) letting them go off for hours at a time unsupervised not only doesn't pass the goofy test, it wasn't even generally true.  There were lots of rotten parents and shiatty kids back in the day.  What we didn't have back then is the internet and 24 hour "news" channels desperate to find click-bait stories, although the "kids these days" and "good old days" memes have always existed.
 
2014-03-17 09:15:11 AM  
I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 23. It fit, I was flighty, forgetful, couldn't concentrate, etc.

I'm 44 and had my gallbladder out last month.  As it was done in the afternoon they kept me overnight. When the nurse was checking on me she would say, "Huh, your oxygen level drops down to 84 (and 82) when you're sleeping, but pops right back up as soon as you wake up." She didn't seem overly concerned, but that struck me as pretty damn low.

Told my doctor at my follow up and he said, "Of COURSE your oxygen popped right back up, it does for anyone with apnea when they wake up." He is sending me for a sleep study.  Both he and the sleep doctor seem pertty certain I have sleep apnea, even though I don't snore, snort and haven't been observed stopping breathing when I sleep.

It might be the mild form, Hypopnea, where I either breathe too shallowly or too slowly. Symptoms may include "depression, forgetfulness, mood or behavior changes, trouble concentrating, loss of energy, nervousness, and morning headaches".

So although I have always been an "Of course ADHD exists" person, now my mind is a little blown.

/CSS
 
2014-03-17 09:16:44 AM  

sendtodave: Persnickety: I wonder how many ADHD kids grow up and get diagnosed with fibromyalgia.

Ha ha!  because they're just hypochondriacs!

I guess what they really need years of therapy to attempt function correctly in society as opposed to pills.  Even as kids.

Because they're not really sick, just crazy!


Because some kids legitimately have ADD, there are no hypochondriacs.  Got it.
 
2014-03-17 09:19:47 AM  

Persnickety: sendtodave: Persnickety: I wonder how many ADHD kids grow up and get diagnosed with fibromyalgia.

Ha ha!  because they're just hypochondriacs!

I guess what they really need years of therapy to attempt function correctly in society as opposed to pills.  Even as kids.

Because they're not really sick, just crazy!

Because some kids legitimately have ADD, there are no hypochondriacs.  Got it.


Your initial post implied *all*  ADHD kids were hypochondriacs.

You are now pissed that someone has called you out on it, and are instead claiming something they, in fact, never said-

You're really bad at this, aren't you?
 
2014-03-17 09:21:43 AM  
static.fjcdn.com

/usually works
 
2014-03-17 09:22:12 AM  

plushpuppy: The biggest problem is if your child requires any extra help in school they must have a medical diagnosis


That is an unavoidable feature of government-run schooling.  All government-run enterprises devolve into mindless bureaucracies, and for the same basic reasons.

It's like civil service employees -- they get promotions based on "education" and seniority, not performance (since performance and competition are anathema to governments).  So, naturally, a whole industry has sprouted up to offer "education" credentials to bureaucrats.  The "education" they get is essentially meaningless -- it exists solely to satisfy some institutional checklist, not to be something that anyone actually wants to buy.

It's like the "Master's Degrees" that a lot of teachers are supposed to get, but the degrees really amount to a few extra hours of Community College.  It's not much better than the driving school they make you take to get out of a speeding ticket.  But it looks good on paper.

Schools can't decide which kids need special attention, or how to give it, or what to pay to give it, since schools get paid whether they give special attention the right way or not.  School administrators can make dumbass decision after dumbass decision, and yet the tax money keeps rolling in anyway.  There's no feedback loop to help them distinguish the dumbass decisions from the good ones.  So, the dumbass decisions pile up. After a while, the whole operation is just a big pile of hot garbage.
 
2014-03-17 09:22:29 AM  

Persnickety: sendtodave: Persnickety: I wonder how many ADHD kids grow up and get diagnosed with fibromyalgia.

Ha ha!  because they're just hypochondriacs!

I guess what they really need years of therapy to attempt function correctly in society as opposed to pills.  Even as kids.

Because they're not really sick, just crazy!

Because some kids legitimately have ADD, there are no hypochondriacs.  Got it.


I'm not sure you do get it.

What is your solution for all these hypochondriacs?

It seems to me that giving them crank helps them function.  You'd prefer that they were drug-free and non-functional?

Because "they should stop being lazy," "they should stop being crazy," and/or "their parents should be better at parenting" aren't solutions. They're not even fixes.

Drugs are, at least, a fix.
 
2014-03-17 09:25:09 AM  
i62.tinypic.com
 
2014-03-17 09:33:15 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: [i62.tinypic.com image 634x574]


I love how you ignore previous responses to you (Pointing out your LOL ADHD MEDS MEK ZOMBIES LOL comic seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what ADHD drugs even ARE... )
 
2014-03-17 09:33:19 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


He's not saying it's a made-up disorder.  He's saying that "ADHD" is actually just a symptom of various other disorders and thus the proper treatment is to address those other disorders.  While I don't know about his 100% claim I'm pretty darn sure that he's at least partially correct.
 
2014-03-17 09:35:19 AM  
Thats_the_joke.jpg
 
2014-03-17 09:36:46 AM  
Neither does Ass Burgers. The people who claim Ass Burgers are just Ass Holes.
 
2014-03-17 09:37:31 AM  
Aww now how are those precious snowflakes going to get disability payments for their psychological disorders?
 
2014-03-17 09:42:02 AM  

Slaves2Darkness: Aww now how are those precious snowflakes going to get disability payments for their psychological disorders?


Maybe the 20 or so underlying conditions that the doctor in the article is claiming as the cause?
 
2014-03-17 09:43:24 AM  
My ex's 5 year old boy was a strong candidate for ADHD. He had the attention span of a 2 year old and ate like several grown men. I knew the kid was really, really hyper, but how do you measure hyper? Remember every kid that get's evaluated for ADHD has parents bringing him in saying the kid is hyper. I finally cracked it when I realized that the kid ate more than me while being a typical skinny kid.

I kept food logs of everything the kid ate for a week straight. I totaled the calories of everything for each and every day. This kid, this skinny kid was eating in excess of 5-6000 calories a day when he was 5 years old. In other words this kid was so active that he was burning that many calories every single day. I gave the food logs to the specialist doctors at the Children's Hospital he was brought too. They asked if that was what he ate last week. I explained that was what he ate yesterday. I then showed them the log for the day before that, and so on.

Luckily we were able to avoid ritalin which is horrible and get him on another medication. ADHD is certainly real, and if a kid has it you can measure it and get a fair idea. Don't let it be an excuse to be a bad parent and let the kid get away with bad behavior. Don't turn away from the kid either thinking that they can't control their behavior and are beyond salvage. The medication should never take the place of parenting, just give them lots of extra attention and they can turn out just fine.
 
2014-03-17 09:48:57 AM  
Who has time to go through a series of tests and treatment for other underlying conditions when someone is ready to sell me a bottle of pills right now?
 
2014-03-17 09:59:41 AM  
I worry that a generation of Americans won't be able to concentrate without this medication; big pharma is understandably not as concerned.

 www.tasteofcinema.com

Remember to take your pills, citizen.
 
2014-03-17 10:05:04 AM  

Mouser: I worry that a generation of Americans won't be able to concentrate without this medication; big pharma is understandably not as concerned.


I'm assuming that previous generations weren't able to concentrate without medication, either, but they lived in in times where they could get away with that.

These days, you need to be able to sit down, stare at a screen and not move for hours, while not losing your concentration, to be a productive member of society.

Or, you can just say that you're "good at multitasking" like most people who should be medicated say.
 
2014-03-17 10:10:25 AM  
What's that subby? Vaccinations cause Autism too?
 
2014-03-17 10:15:14 AM  

Foxxinnia: Words can't not mean something.


What about "meaningless"?
 
2014-03-17 10:28:38 AM  

fredmcmurray: Foxxinnia: Words can't not mean something.

What about "meaningless"?


Meaningless means something.  It means a word that doesn't mean som... OH SHI--

/0
 
2014-03-17 10:46:38 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


I don't often agree with you, but:

This.

My son is profoundly ADHD and without medication he would be pretty much unable to function. So many people are such pricks about it, thinking that we're just medicating our kid, when we spent literally years trying to find a way to help him without medication- we didn't want to have him on stimulants. But in the end, it has helped. And while it's not perfect, it's so much better than it was.

The thing is, that these kids with these disorders have to function in our society someday. Medication isn't going to fix them, but it can  help them find ways to cope. And as they grow up they typically don't have to be on the medication as much or even at all.

I'm tired of ignorant assholes telling me that my son's behavior is just normal for kids. No, you stupid sack of shiat, it's not. Regardless of the cause, it's a problem, and your half-informed invective about parenting when you have kids without such troubles are just annoying.
 
2014-03-17 10:51:47 AM  

Cyclometh: Regardless of the cause, it's a problem, and your half-informed invective about parenting when you have kids without such troubles are just annoying.


The fact that their kids don't have these problems is proof that you are a bad parent.

Alcoholism is a disease that you get yelled at for having.

ADHD is a disease that you get yelled at for your kids having.
 
2014-03-17 10:52:16 AM  

Felgraf: I *DO* Suspect that ADHD, as we call it, is actually a spectrum of *different causes* that create simillar symptoms, and we really need to get at the root of figuring out what's actually going on so we can better help people.

This would explain why it seems to 'manifest' differently in different people. For instance, the best way I can describe my ADHD is not "Lol bored can't pay attention gonna daydream." It's not tuning out imporant things, it's the opposite. I *cannot* easily tune out external stimuli. Whatsoever. Which DOES give me the benefit of being a lot more aware of my environment, of being very good at finding lost objects, and a number of skills that would be of use in, say, a hunter-gatherer society.

This is not terribly useful in a typical classroom environment. Or, say, on a bus. (Pick out a conversation I'd rather not hear? TOO BAD CAN'T STOP HEARING IT. At a big party surrounded by white noise and thousands of conversation? BRAIN STARTS FREAKING OUT, TOO MUCH STIMULUS)

Thankfully, it does seem to be somewhat useful in a research environment...

(Which is why I think the variant I have may stem from genetic factors: After I got diagnosed*, we eventually came to realize that my mother, and the *entire side of my mother's family*, were ADHD.)Prank

*(a diagnosis which involved a battery of tests and then a *multi week* double-blind trial where I would take a pill from a labeled bottle each day, and then my parents, teachers, and myself would fill out a survery on how I did. After about three weeks, they went back, looked at the days I did best and worst etc etc, and mapped them to which days I got varying doses of ritalin, and which days I got sugar pills)


Call of Cthulhu: [i59.tinypic.com image 519x699]

A) Ritalin is a stimulant. It's not farking thorazine.

B) While I agree a number of parents overmedicate, a lot try to medicate as a last resort. We basically tried an insane host of coping strategies (a number of which DO help me as an adult.)


You may want to look into Central Auditory Processing Disorder, my brother has it (along with Autism and a whole host of other issues).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_processing_disorder

I've often wondered that a lot of people with "ADHD: inattentive, non-hyper" is actually CAPD.

Invest in good sound-cancelling headphones that drown out all other noise, buy an iPod or use your smartphone to pipe in calming music, a podcast, or an audiobook. It really helps.
 
2014-03-17 10:56:14 AM  

aharown: Some research indicates that 60% or more of published journal articles contain some form of falsified or fraudulent data or analysis, and that this is higher in psychological and biological sciences.


That's a pretty outrageous claim.

aharown: JoelWhy: As we all know, science is determined by a single doctor making claims in a non-peer-reviewed venue. Oh, and that doctor reaches his conclusions based on anecdotal experiences. Yep, this guy's definitely the last word on ADHD...


Search "peer reviewed falsified data" in google scholar and you'll find significant of evidence that peer reviewed venues are a lot more dangerous than arguing from admitted anecdata.  Some research indicates that 60% or more of published journal articles contain some form of falsified or fraudulent data or analysis, and that this is higher in psychological and biological sciences.

One example you can do yourself is to just find 100 journal articles and plot the reported p values of their statistics.  You'll find a strange and noteworthy bump over expected value of p values just UNDER .05 (or .10, depending on the field and the standard used).  Meaning when a result is statistically significant, it is more likely than it should be that it JUST MANAGES to get under the bar.  People are fudging data to get this result.

There are more sophisticated measures of finding falsification and other fraudulence.  To say nothing of publication biases, funding biases, or anonymous survey data which indicates significant known fraudulence.

Point is, be careful what "peer reviewed venues" you trust.  Really, don't trust any.  If you haven't read the paper and examined the argumentation AND the reported results far more carefully than is generally done, the odds aren't good that it's reliable.


First of all, the fact that there are serious problems in the peer-review process does not make anecdotal accounts a better means of reaching scientific conclusions.

Secondly, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that "60% or more of published journal articles contain some form of falsified or fraudulent data or analysis." Citation needed, please.

Finally, the scientist who wrote this article is acting completely irresponsibly. There is ample evidence to support the conclusion that ADHD exists. As with much of psychiatry, the symptoms are difficult to nail down, and you're dealing with a spectrum disorder. There's clearly a great deal of over-diagnosis (especially since so many of these diagnosis are made by physicians with insufficient training in this field.) But, to claim the illness doesn't exist based on...well, based on virtually nothing; I'm sorry to see the media pick up on the story.
 
2014-03-17 10:57:14 AM  
Oh look, a PHD in "Being an Asshole" who got his degree from a diploma mill who's trying to drum up controversy so he can sell a book...
 
2014-03-17 11:02:47 AM  
It exists for me. 

Tip, I'm not going to say what I look like. Because I'm not as good a driver as people think. Driving several hours is excessively boring even with music. Unless I've got a full blown sci-fi story going on in my imagination.
 
2014-03-17 11:07:06 AM  

vharshyde: Oh look, a PHD in "Being an Asshole"


Wait, is that a thing? Can you get an honorary degree in that?
 
2014-03-17 11:07:35 AM  

cwolf20: It exists for me. 

Tip, I'm not going to say what I look like. Because I'm not as good a driver as people think. Driving several hours is excessively boring even with music. Unless I've got a full blown sci-fi story going on in my imagination.


I enjoy my drive to work, because even though it's an hour each way, it takes no time at all.

I never even remember it!
 
2014-03-17 11:08:08 AM  

allylloyd: Yes there is ADHD and ADD and Autism, no one is denying that.


Except all the time. Did you even READ this thread?
 
2014-03-17 11:11:10 AM  

Cyclometh: allylloyd: Yes there is ADHD and ADD and Autism, no one is denying that.

Except all the time. Did you even READ this thread?


Welcome to Fark.

Most people are totally farking wrong in their premises and assumptions, but that's OK, because no one reads what they write anyway.

Unless they're just here to get angried up.
 
2014-03-17 11:40:12 AM  
 
2014-03-17 11:42:37 AM  
I always thought attention deficit leads to hypo activity.
 
2014-03-17 11:43:33 AM  
What we should do it make it mandatory to see a psychologist first before getting prescribed medications. Primary care doctors often only have 15-30 minutes and they can't diagnose a mental health problem accurately in that time especially since they aren't experts. Go to a psychologist, talk for an hour, get diagnosed correctly and be given treatment options other than medicine. Insurance should definitely cover all this since it would likely be cheaper in the long run for people to get accurately diagnosed and get the correct treatment instead of paying for drugs month after month that may not work.
 
2014-03-17 11:55:39 AM  

phenn: When my son was in 4th grade, his dad and I were called in for a conference with his teacher. She told us that he was suffering from ADHD (didn't realize she was a doctor) and that his behaviors were holding him and her class back. My son was an A & B student, so I was flabbergasted.

She explained that this 'behavior' of his was him being 'chatty' in class.

Chatty.

She then went on to insist that we see a doctor about a prescription for him. As you can imagine, his father and I were stunned. Naturally, we refused to comply and asked that our son be put in someone else's class. When we got home, he got the talking to, the stink-eye and grounded for a week because of his distracting behavior in class. Wasn't a problem after that.

Do these conditions exist? I won't even argue that. Believe what you wish. But, there is no denying that the drugs to deal with said conditions are overprescribed like mad.

I almost think it's laziness on the part of adults. These are very serious medications and probably shouldn't be tossed out there like beads at a parade.


We had a similar teacher conference, except instead of chatty, ours was distracted. The teacher insisted that I was (in barely nicer words) a bad mother who was denying my child the ability to reach her full academic potential by refusing to medicate. I told her, "Tell you what. Before I medicate her, I'm going to come to school with her. Every day. I'm going to sit right next to her, and you bet your ass she'll pay attention then." The teacher mumbled something about not recommending that, but she dropped the medication crap pretty quick.

Then I went home and said the same thing to my kid, except not mentioning meds and instead starting with "If you don't start paying attention in class, or at least faking it better..."

Turns out she does have ADHD, doctor diagnosed and everything. She is not medicated. She's learned coping skills to manage it and succeed academically despite it. She's fighting for the top spot in her class, so she's doing something right.

Some (a FEW) children do need to be medicated. But that should happen when and only when you've tried everything else and the child is still in distress. (The CHILD, not the n00b teacher with poor classroom management skills) If you get the diagnosis and the scrip in the same office visit, you're doing it wrong.
 
2014-03-17 12:02:17 PM  

stoli n coke: sendtodave: Prank Call of Cthulhu: Back in my day...

[Kid]: I don't wanna do homework let's ride bikes no wait I want to watch TV let's gogeticecream--

Adult soundly and vigorously beats the kid until he can't sit down for a week without screaming.

[Kid, wiping tears away]: Know what? Think I'll finish that homework now.

Nowadays...

[Kid]: I wanna play XBox, no I'm bored Imma play Minecraft now I need to update my facebook I'm goingtogowatchTV--

[Adult]: Oh, poor Ashleigh. Here, mommy will write a note to your teacher telling her you simply can't do any homework. Sit right down and play this new video game I bought you and I'll go make you some gluten-free vegan snacks. And don't forget to take your happy pills.

Now get off my lawn!

Yeah, back in the day, we'd just blame the kids for being lazy.  It's much better to blame people for their illnesses.  Like with "alcoholism."

Stupid drunks.  Stupid lazy kids.  They all just need to be scared straight through trauma.


Yet amazingly, this "epidemic" didn't rear it's ugly head until the late 80s- early 90s, when drug companies needed to push their Flinstones Chewable Crank.

For every 1 child that actually needs ritalin, there are at least 30 who don't and are prescribed it anyway because parents have given up on being parents and are looking for a magic pill solution.


I was diagnosed with ADD as a child. Easily bored, easily distracted once bored, etc. But I could sit down with the World Book Encyclopedia and read it and never notice the time.The stimulus of learning something new was enough to overcome my focus issues. My folks bought into the Ritalin thing. I hated it. It was like living in my head, but being caged away from the controls. I could sometimes squeeze an arm through the bars and fiddle at the levers, but as nothing more. As soon as I put 2 & 2 together I stopped taking it (but led my folks on for a while to make sure I could control it with other methods).

I learned other coping mechanisms. Learning new things is still my favorite, but at work or while maintaining the household it's really not ideal. So I set small goals, work to them. I say "This square foot will be clean." I clean it. Oftentimes, once I'm in the 'work' mindset I'll go on to clean additional square feet. Sometimes I won't. But I've cleaned the small task I've assigned myself, and now I can assign myself another small task, perhaps 'make sure all the hinges in the house are oiled" or "replace the air filter", and come back to a cleaning task later.

Do I have ADD? Yes. Do the drugs work for me? No. Do they work for my son? Yes, but he doesn't use Ritalin, he uses another. (I sat down with him before he started meds, and described my problems, and how I felt on the meds. I asked him to be completely honest with me when he tried them and tell me if he felt uncomfortable or anything while on them. So far? Success.)

I've been tempted to ask my doctor to diagnose and see if his meds would help me, but I think I'm doing okay with my methods now. Do I have weekends where I don't know where the time went, and the house is still a wreck? Yes. Do I worry about it anymore? No.
 
2014-03-17 12:07:53 PM  

Grandiloquent Grapefruit: What we should do it make it mandatory to see a psychologist first before getting prescribed medications. Primary care doctors often only have 15-30 minutes and they can't diagnose a mental health problem accurately in that time especially since they aren't experts. Go to a psychologist, talk for an hour, get diagnosed correctly and be given treatment options other than medicine. Insurance should definitely cover all this since it would likely be cheaper in the long run for people to get accurately diagnosed and get the correct treatment instead of paying for drugs month after month that may not work.


This, so much this.  Psychiatrists spend 15 minutes at most on a patient and then prescribe these drugs.   Medical doctors have pretty much zero business diagnosing and prescribing things.   A psychologist, however, can do a proper screen, they are the only people with enough specific training to actually diagnose mental health issues.  Sadly, because they spent all that time actually learning about the mind, they didn't get the education necessary to prescribe.   I think Psychiatry should be dissolved into some kind of PA/NP program designed to work symbiotically with Psychologists.  The current system is very broken.
 
2014-03-17 12:08:27 PM  
I believe that the reason why so many kids (and now adults) are so farking amped up is because of the total overload of stimulants in our culture. Think about it. Caffiene, sugar, video games, TV, movies, music,  artificial light. Huge amounts of all of that coming at all of us all the time. Biologically, we can't handle that. It's pretty glaringly obvious the combination of those things are the cause when you compare levels of ADHD in North America to levels in less developed countries.
 
2014-03-17 12:09:01 PM  
"Medical doctors have pretty much zero business diagnosing and prescribing things."

I meant mental health disorders.  They are absolutely the right person to do normal diagnosing and prescribing.   Just not for mental health.
 
2014-03-17 12:09:28 PM  

Enigmamf: Laobaojun: It was amazing how ADHD symptoms went away when my nieces and nephews went a day without soda, Kool-Aid, candy, etc.  Maybe people should try that.  Oh wait, that is effort, and refraining from knuckling under to every demand rfom the child.  Can't be having with that.

And the FDA has approved Red 40, can't possibly be that toxic muck, either.

Sugar causes drowsiness, not hyperactivity.

Damn, but you're an idiot.


And a shill for the pharmaceutical industry self-identifies.  White knight all you want, kid, they won't sleep with you.

/or the junk food industry.  Whatever.
 
2014-03-17 12:31:48 PM  

Laobaojun: Enigmamf: Laobaojun: It was amazing how ADHD symptoms went away when my nieces and nephews went a day without soda, Kool-Aid, candy, etc.  Maybe people should try that.  Oh wait, that is effort, and refraining from knuckling under to every demand rfom the child.  Can't be having with that.

And the FDA has approved Red 40, can't possibly be that toxic muck, either.

Sugar causes drowsiness, not hyperactivity.

Damn, but you're an idiot.

And a shill for the pharmaceutical industry self-identifies.  White knight all you want, kid, they won't sleep with you.

/or the junk food industry.  Whatever.


http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=52516

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/features/busting-sugar-hyperactivity- my th
 
2014-03-17 12:48:02 PM  

namatad: so drugs are being used to treat symptoms, rather than tests being done to determine if there is some sort of underlying condition and then treating that condition?

COLOR ME SHOCKED
Especially given the terrible health care in the US.


CSB
I had undiagnosed hashimoto's (hypothyroidism) for probably 10 years.
ooo depression? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep problems? lets put you on meds
ooo weight gain? well you are just lazy
ooo hypertension? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep apnea? lets put you on a machine or something

Even after being put on hormone replacement, the doctor was under dosing me, because they are TERRIFIED of going over. LOL

FFS, once I FINALLY was properly treated, oh LOOK, my sleep problems went away, my depression went away, my weight improved, my hypertension improved.

All at the cost of a generic pill and proper testing.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

TL;DR - be in charge of your own medical health, because no one else is
/csb


Good post and right on point. William Osler, the father of modern medicine said "listen to your patient, they are telling you the diagnoses". The implication being that listening and reasoning skills are the most important thing a Dr. could have. Hes rolling over in his grave if he could see the state of modern medicine.
 
2014-03-17 12:58:28 PM  

skozlaw: Really? You think that? Then go publish a proper paper full of proper research on the subject so it can be properly peer-reviewed by other people with the proper credentials.

Oh, wait. That's not going to sell your book like informal Time magazine write-ups and call-ins to "Rover's Morning Glory".

Scumbag.


Just curious. Those committing ad hominem attacks... is your assertion that a pro ADHD scientist has never written a book?
 
2014-03-17 01:08:33 PM  
I don't think this guy is completely off his nut (for example, PTSD in children can have symptoms very similar to ADHD and could easily be mistaken for it) but he lost credibility with me as soon as he used the phrase "Big Pharma."

Anyone who uses that term instead of "pharmaceutical industry" is not to be taken seriously.
 
2014-03-17 01:12:29 PM  

JoelWhy: Finally, the scientist who wrote this article is acting completely irresponsibly. There is ample evidence to support the conclusion that ADHD exists. As with much of psychiatry, the symptoms are difficult to nail down, and you're dealing with a spectrum disorder. There's clearly a great deal of over-diagnosis (especially since so many of these diagnosis are made by physicians with insufficient training in this field.) But, to claim the illness doesn't exist based on...well, based on virtually nothing; I'm sorry to see the media pick up on the story.


He really isn't. If there is ample evidence to support the conclusion that ADHD exists then why is it effectively diagnosed by a scan-tron filled out by parents and teachers (bad picture, but that's the form)? Further more if the parents are divorced all parties to not have to agree on the child's behavior. 1/3 with high risk for ADHD and 1/3 with medium risk is more than enough, even if the last party has no problem that they find abnormal. Heck even 2/3 with medium risk and 1/3 with no risk can and will start the drugs. On top of that the scan-tron is as subjective as it gets "Do you think your child is hyper 1-10" "Does your child have trouble paying attention to normal activities 1-10".

There is a reason that it is so often mocked as "children just need a spanking to fix ADHD" and that reason basically relates to "Does your 6 year old think boring sh*t is boring? Yes, well then ADHD!"

Think I'm kidding/exaggerating?

https://www.msu.edu/course/cep/888/ADHD%20files/DSM-IV.htm

(1) Six (or more) of the following symptoms of inattention have persisted for at least six months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level:

Inattention
(a) often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work or other activities
(b) often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activity
(c) often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly
(d) often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions)
(e) often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities
(f) often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort (such as schoolwork or homework)
(g) often looses things necessary for tasks or activities (e.g., toys, school assignments, pencils, books or tools)
(h) is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli
(i) is often forgetful in daily activities

(2) Six (or more) of the following symptoms of hyperactivity-impulsivity have persisted for at least six months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level:
Hyperactivity
(a) often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat
(b) often leaves seat in classroom or in other situations in which remaining seated is expected
(c) often runs about or climbs excessively in situations in which it is inappropriate (in adolescents or adults, may be limited to subjective feelings of restlessness)
(d) often has difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly
(e) is often "on the go" or often acts as if "driven by a motor"
(f) often talks excessively

Impulsivity
(g) often blurts out answers before questions have been completed
(h) often has difficulty awaiting turn
(i) often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g., butts into conversations or games)
B. Some hyperactive-impulsive or inattentive symptoms must have been present before age 7 years.
C. Some impairment from the symptoms is present in at least two settings (e.g., at school [or work] and at home).
D. There must be clear evidence of interference with developmentally appropriate social, academic or occupational functioning.
E. The disturbance does not occur exclusively during the course of a Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Schizophrenia, or other Psychotic Disorders and is not better accounted for by another mental disorder (e.g., Mood Disorder, Anxiety Disorder, Dissociative Disorder, or a Personality Disorder).

They diagnose this crap on kids as young as 5, see - when they start school. I wonder why your kid is hyperactive before 7?

Asking lazy parents or teachers if kid A is too much trouble to deal with will nearly always yield diagnosis worthy results. I speak from experience as I have a child who had been diagnosed with ADHD based on her mother saying she has it and a teacher who won't put in any effort beyond what is required. The next year in school she had a very interested teacher and suddenly the diagnosis wasn't clear between mother and teacher and I was told "well the drugs worked!" until her mother went back to the doc behind my back and begged for more drugs. Then the drugs hadn't worked ... then all the sudden she really  really needed them because of the original diagnosis paperwork.

I will grant that speaking in superlatives is bad, but the ADHD system as it stands just begs to be torn to pieces by anyone who is near the end of their career (as in the middle they seem to be more interested in prescribing the drugs and making a living than actual patient care).
 
2014-03-17 01:20:46 PM  

Lcpl_Dunno: JoelWhy: Finally, the scientist who wrote this article is acting completely irresponsibly. There is ample evidence to support the conclusion that ADHD exists. As with much of psychiatry, the symptoms are difficult to nail down, and you're dealing with a spectrum disorder. There's clearly a great deal of over-diagnosis (especially since so many of these diagnosis are made by physicians with insufficient training in this field.) But, to claim the illness doesn't exist based on...well, based on virtually nothing; I'm sorry to see the media pick up on the story.

He really isn't. If there is ample evidence to support the conclusion that ADHD exists then why is it effectively diagnosed by a scan-tron filled out by parents and teachers (bad picture, but that's the form)? Further more if the parents are divorced all parties to not have to agree on the child's behavior. 1/3 with high risk for ADHD and 1/3 with medium risk is more than enough, even if the last party has no problem that they find abnormal. Heck even 2/3 with medium risk and 1/3 with no risk can and will start the drugs. On top of that the scan-tron is as subjective as it gets "Do you think your child is hyper 1-10" "Does your child have trouble paying attention to normal activities 1-10".

There is a reason that it is so often mocked as "children just need a spanking to fix ADHD" and that reason basically relates to "Does your 6 year old think boring sh*t is boring? Yes, well then ADHD!"

Think I'm kidding/exaggerating?

https://www.msu.edu/course/cep/888/ADHD%20files/DSM-IV.htm

(1) Six (or more) of the following symptoms of inattention have persisted for at least six months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level:

Inattention
(a) often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work or other activities
(b) often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activity
(c) often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly
(d) ...


Hey, how is PTSD often diagnosed?

It's probably farking fake too.
 
2014-03-17 01:28:23 PM  

Necronic: "Medical doctors have pretty much zero business diagnosing and prescribing things."

I meant mental health disorders.  They are absolutely the right person to do normal diagnosing and prescribing.   Just not for mental health.


A PSYCHIATRIST has MEDICAL DEGREE! This means s/he has attended medical school and did his/her RESIDENCY in psychiatry. A PYSHCOLOGIST has a DOCTORATE in psychology. S/he must write a thesis paper regarding a particular topic regarding psychology.

So are you saying that a pediatrician shouldn't make this diagnosis. Or that ONLY pediatric psychiatrist or psychologist  should?
 
2014-03-17 01:30:17 PM  
I get PTSD it could happen to war vets. But ADHD diagnosis list is so generic that leads to all of us having partial ADHD. Although those meds are the shiat to romp through the school tests. I will get my kids some of those if they turn out dull and dick!sh which I fully understand.
 
2014-03-17 01:48:13 PM  
shortymac: You may want to look into Central Auditory Processing Disorder, my brother has it (along with Autism and a whole host of other issues).   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_processing_disorder

I've often wondered that a lot of people with "ADHD: inattentive, non-hyper" is actually CAPD.

Invest in good sound-cancelling headphones that drown out all other noise, buy an iPod or use your smartphone to pipe in calming music, a podcast, or an audiobook. It really helps.


Winner winner ding ding OMG SHUT UP!!!!

Imagine trying to work in an open office with 4 of the 7 people in the area being the personification of LOUD HOWARD.  Then add in a plotter in the background, a printer that never quits, a love the speakerphone by LOUD HOWARD, noisy keyboards, hard plastic casters on chair mats and people that can't sit still and my favorite, the 36"x48" sheets of paper that are always rustling.

Think that's bad?  Add in 2-3 radios.  One with buttrock lawnmower music, one with showtunes and mine trying to push country through the mix.  Then add in a pair of bosses that don't believe in headphones and a secretary that will let the phones ring in our area if she's on another line. But wait, it gets better!  If you try to concentrate on what you're doing LOUD HOWARD will sneak up and slam a book down next to you.

Try having CAPD in that.  No wonder why I drink
 
2014-03-17 01:51:16 PM  
While it's true that ADHD is over-diagnosed, and stimulants are over-prescribed, this does not mean there is no such thing as ADHD. Medications make an enormous difference for many kids, just not all of them that are diagnosed with a problem.
 
2014-03-17 01:54:06 PM  

namatad: so drugs are being used to treat symptoms, rather than tests being done to determine if there is some sort of underlying condition and then treating that condition?

COLOR ME SHOCKED
Especially given the terrible health care in the US.


CSB
I had undiagnosed hashimoto's (hypothyroidism) for probably 10 years.
ooo depression? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep problems? lets put you on meds
ooo weight gain? well you are just lazy
ooo hypertension? lets put you on meds
ooo sleep apnea? lets put you on a machine or something

Even after being put on hormone replacement, the doctor was under dosing me, because they are TERRIFIED of going over. LOL

FFS, once I FINALLY was properly treated, oh LOOK, my sleep problems went away, my depression went away, my weight improved, my hypertension improved.

All at the cost of a generic pill and proper testing.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

TL;DR - be in charge of your own medical health, because no one else is
/csb




I had to move home after hypothyroidism (probably Hashimoto's, since I had very different symptoms for a few years that shifted to hypo symptoms) joined narcolepsy and ruined my ability to bathe, brush my teeth, and do anything else necessary with any kind of reliability. Took several years to get diagnosed because I wasn't functioning enough to manage seeing my primary care doctor when I was already struggling to see my neurologist.

Anyway, so I had to move home, find new doctors. New sleep doctor insists I just have sleep apnea because I'd gained weight and now I'm fat. While holding a sleep study showing narcolepsy from forever ago, with me saying I'd had all these symptoms since well before I became fat, and that I'd since been diagnosed with and treated for hypothyroidism. Insisted I get another sleep study. I asked why, since she was holding a sleep study in her hand. She said "because we can't titrate CPAP without it."

I obviously didn't go back there. Still haven't been to see another sleep doctor yet.
 
2014-03-17 01:54:11 PM  
Certainly this disorder exists - in a tiny minority of the population.  The perception that this disorder doesn't exist comes from the way it's abused - by pharma companies who are all too eager to get people on subscriptive medication that they're stuck on for life, by parents who are too lazy and timid to stand up to their children and be parents, by teachers who don't want to deal with normal unruly children, and by slackers who want to blame their lack of success in life on some medical condition they don't actually have.

It's no coincidence that EVERY lazy parent I know has kids with "ADHD" now, that EVERY loser I know who blew through their 20s & 30s smoking weed and doing nothing useful has rolled into their 40s blaming their lack of success in life on "having ADHD/Aspergers", that  EVERY boy but 2 in my nephew's 5th grade class of 30 kids has been diagnosed as having this disorder and put on medication.
 
2014-03-17 01:54:40 PM  
Both Time magazine and the submitter didn't bother to read the first sentence of the article.  The doctor says that ADHD is a symptom of at least 20 different conditions, each of which need to be treated differently.
 
2014-03-17 01:59:12 PM  

ksdanj: AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

THIS.

I was very skeptical about the prevalence of ADHD until I started working with elementary school aged children. I was raised old school and figure what these kids needed most was an ass whuppin'.

I'm sure that over medication of kids and young adults does happen but I've personally seen dozens of kids who have had their ability to concentrate AND LEARN aided by medication...


My (now adult) kid was diagnosed with ADHD in the early ninties before most people had ever heard of the disorder. It was generational, as both her father and grandmother had the same symptoms as children. Her grandmother in the forties couldn't sit still in school and was constantly being disciplined to no avail. That was before the Nazi occupation of her country, so when that happened, no one cared anymore and she was allowed to skip school and instead do things like walk up and down the train tracks looking for little pieces of coal to heat their house. Her dad had a hellish time in school and at home, too hyperactive to even sit down and eat let alone try to deal with school and on top of that he had dyslexia. All of that was undiagnosed, but the family was well aware of the issues. When our daughter started having trouble, this time, this generation, we did something about it. She was on dexedrine until she was in high school and began hyper caffeinating on her own. One cup of coffee makes her fall asleep, three or so helps her concentrate. When you can see that things that speed normal people up make these folks calm down, it's not hard to understand that its a wiring issue, especially when other things have been ruled out.

It exists, but a lot of other things mimic and need to be weeded out first. That's the problem.
 
2014-03-17 02:02:44 PM  

Felgraf: Hey, how is PTSD often diagnosed?

It's probably farking fake too.


That's what the army has been saying.  Because if someone is discharged for a thing that happened to them while in the service, in might cost the army money.  Discharging someone for misbehavior, on the other hand, saves them money.
 
2014-03-17 02:04:23 PM  

FnkyTwn: allylloyd: Her kids don't need medicine they need 1) better parents and 2) an ass whooping!

Oh hey! It seems your mini-strokes/seizures have managed to stick your mind back in the 80s! Welcome to 2014! Spanking is not only frowned upon, it's also borderline illegal. Also, as a person who got plenty of spankings in the 70s and 80s (I broke a paddle with my ass in the 2nd grade, but that was mostly because my dad had drilled too many air holes in it to cut down on wind resistance), I know it's about as effective as throwing somebody in jail without a way to better yourself. It only tends to make sneaky behavior more sneaky.

Would ADHD meds have cut down on my parents frustration level with me as a child? Who's really to say, but surely it would have been worth a try seeing as how months of restriction and regular beatings spankings managed to only make me a smarter criminal.

/I have yet to spank my own kids


Notice carefully:
- Whupping your kids = NOT LAZY PARENTING even if it farks up their heads. They should be out of the house and fighting to survive by the time this happens anyway.
- Giving them a pill = LAZY PARENTING even if it calms them down and makes them feel and act human.
 
2014-03-17 02:11:12 PM  

flondrix: Felgraf: Hey, how is PTSD often diagnosed?

It's probably farking fake too.

That's what the army has been saying.  Because if someone is discharged for a thing that happened to them while in the service, in might cost the army money

 make them change their training methods, which are PERFECT, and that will KILL more of our boys in the next war.
 
2014-03-17 02:24:20 PM  

log_jammin: I have the feeling the good doctor did not come to his conclusion based on the scientific method.


I have the feeling the good doctor is a goddamn moran who needs his license reviewed, and possibly his IQ score.

/What the fark part of 'professional' makes you think it's a good idea to go on an opinion piece basically saying you don't believe that a condition exists instead of doing research and publishing a paper?
 
2014-03-17 02:24:45 PM  
There was no such thing as ADHD when I was a kid. If there was, that eraser flying across the classroom that the teacher just chucked and whacked the the kid that wasn't paying attention on the side of the head took care of it. Yep, no such thing in those days. I remember another teacher that would wing a stick of chalk like a fastball and it would make a really big "CRACK" when it hit the side blackboard. Yeah, no such thing.
 
2014-03-17 02:25:57 PM  
Human children are not hard-wired to sit in a chair, listening to lectures for 6 hours a day... I'll go are far as to say, the day-dreamers are the normal ones.
 
2014-03-17 02:39:51 PM  
Any kid, usually boys, who won't sit still in school like a rotting carcass gets pilled up. I doubt that this doctor can change that. Teachers who have read a pamphlet are convinced they know it all, and big pharma wants to pill up everybody.
 
2014-03-17 02:52:18 PM  

silvervial: ksdanj: AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

THIS.

I was very skeptical about the prevalence of ADHD until I started working with elementary school aged children. I was raised old school and figure what these kids needed most was an ass whuppin'.

I'm sure that over medication of kids and young adults does happen but I've personally seen dozens of kids who have had their ability to concentrate AND LEARN aided by medication...

My (now adult) kid was diagnosed with ADHD in the early ninties before most people had ever heard of the disorder. It was generational, as both her father and grandmother had the same symptoms as children. Her grandmother in the forties couldn't sit still in school and was constantly being disciplined to no avail. That was before the Nazi occupation of her country, so when that happened, no one cared anymore and she was allowed to skip school and instead do things like walk up and down the train tracks looking for little pieces of coal to heat their house. Her dad had a hellish time in school and at home, too hyperactive to even sit down and eat let alone try to deal with school and on top of that he had dyslexia. All of that was undiagnosed, but the family was well aware of the issues. When our daughter started having trouble, this time, this generation, we did something about it. Sh ...


THIS

Caffeine or any other stimulant (pseudoephedrine, etc) will help me concentrate and focus... to a point. After I go past a certain amount I start feeling like I've been tranquilized.

CSB: I have ADHD myself and a friend had given me some caffeinated soap. I was using the bathroom when my girls (4 and 5) snuck upstairs and used the caffeinated soap. They had that stuff lathered past their elbows and it took about 2 hours for them to come down from that. They were little blurs flying around the house. They slept incredibly well that night though. :D

I think part of the problem is that schools have limited numbers of teacher aides and they tend to focus on the children with medical problems. (I'm not blaming the schools... they have to work within their budget). Many parents will take the ADHD diagnosis knowing that, at the very least, their kid will get bumped up the list of "who gets helped" in their school.
 
2014-03-17 02:55:22 PM  

T.rex: Human children are not hard-wired to sit in a chair, listening to lectures for 6 hours a day... I'll go are far as to say, the day-dreamers are the normal ones.


So what you're saying is the teachers suck because they refuse to dedicate the time to help their charges learn?  Hell I knew that in the 1st grade.
 
2014-03-17 03:14:48 PM  

Frederick: Drugs to treat it certainly does exist.


I figured out how to cure it.  As in:  you take this pill, then when you stop taking it the problems don't come back.  This isn't as awesome as you think:  ADHD people have specific issues; when you cure their ADHD, the perception from their end is that HOLY shiat EVERYTHING IS SO EASY TO COMPREHEND!  The perception from everyone else is... minor.

The only ADHD people that get noticed are the annoying ones.  Their affront to authority is considered a disease, and they're branded autistic, and given drugs to manage it.  There are plenty of tolerable people who have trouble focusing, but don't get a diagnosis because they're not annoying second graders.  You can imagine how this also translates to over-diagnosis.

Curing the ADHD leaves a life of living like that as a behavioral template.  Whatever initial state they were in, whatever failure to pick up on social cues (Schizoid Personality Disorder), all of that drives the building of a personality.  When you cure those specific problems, you still have a lot of shiat written to the basal ganglia that you need to undo--and that is really farking hard.
 
2014-03-17 03:17:38 PM  

namegoeshere: Laobaojun: Enigmamf: Laobaojun: It was amazing how ADHD symptoms went away when my nieces and nephews went a day without soda, Kool-Aid, candy, etc.  Maybe people should try that.  Oh wait, that is effort, and refraining from knuckling under to every demand rfom the child.  Can't be having with that.

And the FDA has approved Red 40, can't possibly be that toxic muck, either.

Sugar causes drowsiness, not hyperactivity.

Damn, but you're an idiot.

And a shill for the pharmaceutical industry self-identifies.  White knight all you want, kid, they won't sleep with you.

/or the junk food industry.  Whatever.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=52516

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/features/busting-sugar-hyperactivity- my th


Damn.  The shills are out in force today.  Who said anything about sugar?  The artificial colors and preservatives are enough to send anyone into a fit.

Hey, but if you couldn't maintain the train of thought long enough...
 
2014-03-17 03:30:54 PM  

Laobaojun: namegoeshere: Laobaojun: Enigmamf: Laobaojun: It was amazing how ADHD symptoms went away when my nieces and nephews went a day without soda, Kool-Aid, candy, etc.  Maybe people should try that.  Oh wait, that is effort, and refraining from knuckling under to every demand rfom the child.  Can't be having with that.

And the FDA has approved Red 40, can't possibly be that toxic muck, either.

Sugar causes drowsiness, not hyperactivity.

Damn, but you're an idiot.

And a shill for the pharmaceutical industry self-identifies.  White knight all you want, kid, they won't sleep with you.

/or the junk food industry.  Whatever.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=52516

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/features/busting-sugar-hyperactivity- my th

Damn.  The shills are out in force today.  Who said anything about sugar?  The artificial colors and preservatives are enough to send anyone into a fit.

Hey, but if you couldn't maintain the train of thought long enough...


Yes, anyone who disagrees with someone whose idea of a coherent argument is " LOLS BIG RED PHARMA DYE NOT GOING TO F*CK YOU" is a shill. Sure they are.
 
2014-03-17 03:35:23 PM  
The "doctor" is question actually said that ADHD is actually an umbrella term for 20 different diseases. You know what that means? Different drugs for each one!
 
2014-03-17 04:13:18 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: vharshyde: Oh look, a PHD in "Being an Asshole"

Wait, is that a thing? Can you get an honorary degree in that?


Yes, right here at the University of Fark.
 
2014-03-17 04:21:13 PM  

i upped my meds-up yours: flondrix: Felgraf: Hey, how is PTSD often diagnosed?

It's probably farking fake too.

That's what the army has been saying.  Because if someone is discharged for a thing that happened to them while in the service, in might cost the army money make them change their training methods, which are PERFECT, and that will KILL more of our boys in the next war.


I don't think that PTSD necessarily reflects a failure in training any more than getting an arm or a leg blown off does.  War is hell, and people come back broken.  In the case of PTSD, perhaps we could reduce the occurance by limiting the number of times they are deployed before transferring them to something else (like training the new guys) or discharging them early.
 
2014-03-17 04:22:33 PM  

AgentKGB: silvervial: ksdanj: AverageAmericanGuy: I've met a few kids who definitely had something wrong with them. Hyperactive, inability to concentrate, inappropriate behavior, struggle with authority. These are all normal behaviors of normal kids. But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

Sure, the doctors are probably overprescribing drugs to kids who don't need them because their parents are no longer willing to be parents and would rather just drug kids into compliance, but having spent time with some of kids who are actually having their quality of life destroyed by their uncontrollable behaviors, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

THIS.

I was very skeptical about the prevalence of ADHD until I started working with elementary school aged children. I was raised old school and figure what these kids needed most was an ass whuppin'.

I'm sure that over medication of kids and young adults does happen but I've personally seen dozens of kids who have had their ability to concentrate AND LEARN aided by medication...

My (now adult) kid was diagnosed with ADHD in the early ninties before most people had ever heard of the disorder. It was generational, as both her father and grandmother had the same symptoms as children. Her grandmother in the forties couldn't sit still in school and was constantly being disciplined to no avail. That was before the Nazi occupation of her country, so when that happened, no one cared anymore and she was allowed to skip school and instead do things like walk up and down the train tracks looking for little pieces of coal to heat their house. Her dad had a hellish time in school and at home, too hyperactive to even sit down and eat let alone try to deal with school and on top of that he had dyslexia. All of that was undiagnosed, but the family was well aware of the issues. When our daughter started having trouble, this time, this generation, we did something ...


There is also a dark side to the IEP in schools, basically the school will get extra money per head for every "disabled" student, regardless of what the disability actually is*.

Hence you get situations where teachers and admins "encourage" parents to get hyperactive Timmy medicated: school gets extra cash without much output, teacher gets a quiet kid, and Timmy's parents know their kid gets an edge against other students thanks to time and a half on all tests.

Moreover, labeling a kid with ADHD gets him medicaid and SSI disability, so there's a bunch of parents who rely on their kid "cutting a check" to survive.

/*Your school district might be different and there are grants flouting around for specific disabilities, it's a bit more complex than I've laid out
//Granted, if you have a severe non-easy cookie-cutter problem you can get farked by the system (RE my brother)
 
2014-03-17 04:44:22 PM  
i.imgur.com
Soon.
 
2014-03-17 05:53:04 PM  

JoelWhy: aharown:
First of all, the fact that there are serious problems in the peer-review process does not make anecdotal accounts a better means of reaching scientific conclusions.



I called it more dangerous, because at least anecdata is obviously anecdata, it obviously has a bias.  Peer reviewed journals pretend like Fox News pretends...and can therefore be far more dangerous when wrong.
 
2014-03-17 07:00:49 PM  

AverageAmericanGuy: But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.


The problem is that these problems are likely the result of various "real" conditions that are going undiagnosed because the doctors are just taking the easy way out and labeling the symptoms "ADHD" and tossing pills at people. That's sort of the crux of the article.
 
2014-03-17 07:02:10 PM  

Parthenogenetic: So, according to a legion of Fark medical experts, over-diagnosed and over-medicated = it doesn't exist. At all. All righty then.


And, you know...the doctor who wrote the f*cking article. Try reading it...the rest of your post misses the point.
 
2014-03-18 12:10:02 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: AverageAmericanGuy: But when you meet a kid with the type of behavioral problem that they call ADHD, these are magnified tenfold.

The problem is that these problems are likely the result of various "real" conditions that are going undiagnosed because the doctors are just taking the easy way out and labeling the symptoms "ADHD" and tossing pills at people. That's sort of the crux of the article.


My goodness. After all this time thinking adhd was the only reason why I can only read a novel is by having 10 different spots to sit or stand, it turns out I'm just a hyperactive bastard who's wrecked an average of one time per car due to not having enough attention span to pay attention sometimes.  

Oddly enough, in my toyota 2009 corolla, I've only wrecked on black ice last year. So I'm improving.  That time it was the lady in front who wasn't paying attention.  With a crap ton of events around me preventing me from slowing to a stop effectively or getting out of the lane to avoid hitting her car.

My upcoming roadtrips should be interesting... I wonder where my imagination will randomly lead me for a few seconds when my mind wanders.
 
2014-03-18 08:06:11 AM  

Stoj: For those with ADHD, he doesn't say that the behaviors & symptoms don't exist, he says something something you're reading the next post now anyway so whatever.


It has been my experience that if someone was capable of reading the article, they really don't have ADHD.
 
2014-03-18 09:33:44 AM  

shortymac: There is also a dark side to the IEP in schools, basically the school will get extra money per head for every "disabled" student, regardless of what the disability actually is*.

Hence you get situations where teachers and admins "encourage" parents to get hyperactive Timmy medicated: school gets extra cash without much output, teacher gets a quiet kid, and Timmy's parents know their kid gets an edge against other students thanks to time and a half on all tests.

Moreover, labeling a kid with ADHD gets him medicaid and SSI disability, so there's a bunch of parents who rely on their kid "cutting a check" to survive.

/*Your school district might be different and there are grants flouting around for specific disabilities, it's a bit more complex than I've laid out
//Granted, if you have a severe non-easy cookie-cutter problem you can get farked by the system (RE my brother)


That is also true. I went to a K-12 school in a small town and they didn't have the budget for a teacher's aide... until one of the kindergarteners had learning disabilities. Once the school had a student with medically verified learning disabilities they got enough added to the budget to get a teacher's aide who followed him up the grades as he went.
 
2014-03-18 10:10:10 AM  

AgentKGB: shortymac: There is also a dark side to the IEP in schools, basically the school will get extra money per head for every "disabled" student, regardless of what the disability actually is*.

Hence you get situations where teachers and admins "encourage" parents to get hyperactive Timmy medicated: school gets extra cash without much output, teacher gets a quiet kid, and Timmy's parents know their kid gets an edge against other students thanks to time and a half on all tests.

Moreover, labeling a kid with ADHD gets him medicaid and SSI disability, so there's a bunch of parents who rely on their kid "cutting a check" to survive.

/*Your school district might be different and there are grants flouting around for specific disabilities, it's a bit more complex than I've laid out
//Granted, if you have a severe non-easy cookie-cutter problem you can get farked by the system (RE my brother)

That is also true. I went to a K-12 school in a small town and they didn't have the budget for a teacher's aide... until one of the kindergarteners had learning disabilities. Once the school had a student with medically verified learning disabilities they got enough added to the budget to get a teacher's aide who followed him up the grades as he went.


It is important to note, however, that it is the diagnosis, not the prescription, that gets the services. Any and all medication discussions should be between a parent and the child's doctor ONLY. Unless they have an MD after their name, no school employee is in any way qualified to discuss prescription medication with a parent.

Okay: "These are the behaviors that I am seeing which are concerning. I suggest talking with your doctor about the possibility of an attention disorder."

NOT OKAY: "Your child probably has ADHD and should be on medication."

Educators are not qualified to diagnose or otherwise practice medicine and need to stop trying to do so.
 
2014-03-18 04:00:27 PM  

namegoeshere: AgentKGB: shortymac: There is also a dark side to the IEP in schools, basically the school will get extra money per head for every "disabled" student, regardless of what the disability actually is*.

Hence you get situations where teachers and admins "encourage" parents to get hyperactive Timmy medicated: school gets extra cash without much output, teacher gets a quiet kid, and Timmy's parents know their kid gets an edge against other students thanks to time and a half on all tests.

Moreover, labeling a kid with ADHD gets him medicaid and SSI disability, so there's a bunch of parents who rely on their kid "cutting a check" to survive.

/*Your school district might be different and there are grants flouting around for specific disabilities, it's a bit more complex than I've laid out
//Granted, if you have a severe non-easy cookie-cutter problem you can get farked by the system (RE my brother)

That is also true. I went to a K-12 school in a small town and they didn't have the budget for a teacher's aide... until one of the kindergarteners had learning disabilities. Once the school had a student with medically verified learning disabilities they got enough added to the budget to get a teacher's aide who followed him up the grades as he went.

It is important to note, however, that it is the diagnosis, not the prescription, that gets the services. Any and all medication discussions should be between a parent and the child's doctor ONLY. Unless they have an MD after their name, no school employee is in any way qualified to discuss prescription medication with a parent.

Okay: "These are the behaviors that I am seeing which are concerning. I suggest talking with your doctor about the possibility of an attention disorder."

NOT OKAY: "Your child probably has ADHD and should be on medication."

Educators are not qualified to diagnose or otherwise practice medicine and need to stop trying to do so.


I've been through the IEP system with my brother's disabilities, it's saddening what school admins try to pull to reduce the cost of Special Needs students (while still collecting that sweet government money). Pre-internet it was a lot easier and thankfully my Dad was a doctor so we had a lot of knowledge, my Dad used to go into not introduce himself as "Dr. LastName" in the beginning to catch their bullshiat and throw them off their game.

Hell, my Parents had to go to court with our local school district because they wanted to send my Autistic brother to the ESL class (the school had merged them) instead of a special ed class in another school. WTF! 5 years of court battles over that one and we had pay out of pocket to send my brother to a private school 1.5 hours away because they refused to co-operate with us.

Thank god we had a stay-at-home parent, I don't know how the average family would cope with that situation today.

/I really should write a book about this experience
//I think my parents signed a non-disclosure though
 
Displayed 218 of 218 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report