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(Carl Sagan Portal)   The "Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey Episode" Discussion Thread and Drinking Game. 9PM eastern, Fox   (carlsagan.com) divider line 485
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2014-03-17 05:45:40 PM

tudorgurl: farkingismybusiness: I think he might be on to something about us being related to trees. Everyday I wake up with morning wood.

SCIENCE!


1.bp.blogspot.com

It's poetry in motion.
 
2014-03-17 05:55:52 PM

Bawdy George: Waldo Pepper: As a Christian I can look at the science and understand  speculate with absolutely no evidence that this is the universe that God created and the rules and actions that have been put in place to allow the universe to function.

FTFY


sorry to see that you are so closed minded. I'm not asking or demanding that you agree with me or my beliefs as I don't expect you to ask or demand that I believe with your beliefs. I was just joining in the discussion.
 
2014-03-17 05:59:27 PM

Waldo Pepper: you have summed this show up nicely.  I'm Christian and I believe in Creation. I had the show on in the background and was listening to it. It struck me as a chance to bash religion and very little "fact" based information.

Everything

in "Cosmos" is fact-based information. The problem with episode 1 of "Cosmos" is it presents its fact as a given, rather than backing them up. Even a "learn more at..." URL in the corner of the screen would have been sufficient. Now that I think about it, they really should have done that. A corresponding website could include citations, statement by statement, for everything in the show.
 
2014-03-17 06:09:27 PM

Waldo Pepper: sorry to see that you are so closed minded


Alright, then. according to you:

Open to all possibilities, yet requiring evidence = closed-minded
Pretending to know something you don't know, with zero evidence = open minded?

I appreciate that you aren't demanding anything, and you seem reasonable for the most part, but let's not pretend your beliefs have any mooring in reality.
 
2014-03-17 06:10:56 PM

doyner: Jesterling: An ad for a Noah's arc movie during Cosmos.  It's the end of the empire, folks.

Advertising companies know there are evangelicals out there watching Cosmos in order to get angry.


I remember the day I first understood that some people really, really, WANT to be angry.  It was quite the epiphany.
 
2014-03-17 06:22:30 PM

Bawdy George: Waldo Pepper: sorry to see that you are so closed minded

Alright, then. according to you:

Open to all possibilities, yet requiring evidence = closed-minded
Pretending to know something you don't know, with zero evidence = open minded?

I appreciate that you aren't demanding anything, and you seem reasonable for the most part, but let's not pretend your beliefs have any mooring in reality.


closed minded was a bit sarcastic humor since you ruled out God. ;-)

my beliefs have moorings in reality. There is a written history that goes back thousands of years. You may not accept those writings are accurate but I do and there has been some scientific and historic backing to events in the that are in those writing. 

Let us be honest. for the majority of people the actual details of how the Cosmos (to use the show's term) began or advanced have no bearing on our life. I think it is awesome that there are folks out there who have made their life's work trying to figure out how everything happened and I am thankful for the advances that have been made due their studies/work. Now for a great majority of people having a belief and faith in a higher being plays a much greater role in their life and a much more positive impact. 

Don't confuse my faith and belief in God/Christ with the corruption and negative impact organized religion has had on the world.
 
2014-03-17 06:25:26 PM

Froonium: The Lone Gunman: So, basically, we're the retarded offspring of five monkeys having butt sex with a mutant fish-squirrel.

Nah, that's just you.


My ancestors came over on Golgafrincham Ark B, personally.
 
2014-03-17 06:27:56 PM

Waldo Pepper: my beliefs have moorings in reality. There is a written history that goes back thousands of years. You may not accept those writings are accurate but I do and there has been some scientific and historic backing to events in the that are in those writing.


Such as?
 
2014-03-17 06:30:47 PM

100 Watt Walrus: Waldo Pepper: you have summed this show up nicely.  I'm Christian and I believe in Creation. I had the show on in the background and was listening to it. It struck me as a chance to bash religion and very little "fact" based information.

Everything in "Cosmos" is fact-based information. The problem with episode 1 of "Cosmos" is it presents its fact as a given, rather than backing them up. Even a "learn more at..." URL in the corner of the screen would have been sufficient. Now that I think about it, they really should have done that. A corresponding website could include citations, statement by statement, for everything in the show.


BTW, I don't see any of the content in "Cosmos" as "a chance to bash religion." The cartoon villainy of the Inquisition is, if anything, mild compared to the real villainy of the Inquisition. But to literally draw the characters so broad makes the point less salient.

And don't let your detractors in this thread get you down. It's possible to believe god is responsible for all the discoveries we make about the universe through science, as long as you acknowledge it is a belief, as there is no testable evidence for the existence of god. Faith is faith, and there's nothing wrong with faith as long as it doesn't blind you to fact.

There exists only anecdotal, wholly untestable evidence for reincarnation, but I believe in that because of my own experiences. I can't back it up with anything scientific.

/atheist
 
2014-03-17 06:35:19 PM

Ishkur: Waldo Pepper: my beliefs have moorings in reality. There is a written history that goes back thousands of years. You may not accept those writings are accurate but I do and there has been some scientific and historic backing to events in the that are in those writing.

Such as?


you have google or bing feel free to do a search.
 
2014-03-17 06:35:56 PM

Waldo Pepper: Don't confuse my faith and belief in God/Christ with the corruption and negative impact organized religion has had on the world.


Well, on that we can agree. We cool ;)
 
2014-03-17 06:37:06 PM

Ishkur: Waldo Pepper: my beliefs have moorings in reality. There is a written history that goes back thousands of years. You may not accept those writings are accurate but I do and there has been some scientific and historic backing to events in the that are in those writing.

Such as?


I'd like to hear the answer to this too.
 
2014-03-17 06:38:12 PM

Waldo Pepper: Ishkur: Waldo Pepper: my beliefs have moorings in reality. There is a written history that goes back thousands of years. You may not accept those writings are accurate but I do and there has been some scientific and historic backing to events in the that are in those writing.

Such as?

you have google or bing feel free to do a search.


You're losing me Waldo.

img341.imageshack.us
 
2014-03-17 06:44:49 PM

Waldo Pepper: I guess if you base your views of Christians on a high percent of commentators I will admit you are correct. Might I suggest not viewing Christians thru the eyes of the media/hollywood.


I was merely pointing to that as a convenient source of examples. While my own circle of acquaintance is also hardly a representative sample, its also one of the arguments I've more frequently encountered in person, and in various apologetics literature in theology journals.
 
2014-03-17 06:44:52 PM

100 Watt Walrus: 100 Watt Walrus: Waldo Pepper: you have summed this show up nicely.  I'm Christian and I believe in Creation. I had the show on in the background and was listening to it. It struck me as a chance to bash religion and very little "fact" based information.

Everything in "Cosmos" is fact-based information. The problem with episode 1 of "Cosmos" is it presents its fact as a given, rather than backing them up. Even a "learn more at..." URL in the corner of the screen would have been sufficient. Now that I think about it, they really should have done that. A corresponding website could include citations, statement by statement, for everything in the show.

BTW, I don't see any of the content in "Cosmos" as "a chance to bash religion." The cartoon villainy of the Inquisition is, if anything, mild compared to the real villainy of the Inquisition. But to literally draw the characters so broad makes the point less salient.

And don't let your detractors in this thread get you down. It's possible to believe god is responsible for all the discoveries we make about the universe through science, as long as you acknowledge it is a belief, as there is no testable evidence for the existence of god. Faith is faith, and there's nothing wrong with faith as long as it doesn't blind you to fact.

There exists only anecdotal, wholly untestable evidence for reincarnation, but I believe in that because of my own experiences. I can't back it up with anything scientific.

/atheist


appreciate your kind words. none of this gets me down. I also realize that by my faith that all of this is to be expected as the end times gets closer.    I actually love these fark discussions except for some of the lame "sky wizard" or "people who believe are stupid" type comments. My faith will never been shaken or tested by anything said in a comment section. But I will add that in some areas I have listen (read) and revisited what I have been taught and learned and have adjusted my viewpoints on some areas.   These adjustments have always reinforced my belief in God and have opened my eyes to the greed/power of those who are Christian in name only CINO's as i believe one farker has labeled folks and quite an accurate label.
 
2014-03-17 06:49:18 PM

Waldo Pepper: you have google or bing feel free to do a search.


No, it's your bold assertion, so YOU have to back it up: Give me an example of scientific evidence for the existence of God.
 
2014-03-17 06:53:46 PM

Ishkur: Waldo Pepper: you have google or bing feel free to do a search.

No, it's your bold assertion, so YOU have to back it up: Give me an example of scientific evidence for the existence of God.


It is his assertion and his responsibility to back it up, but you're deliberately and badly misrepresenting his claim, which was "my beliefs have moorings in reality. There is a written history that goes back thousands of years."

Not one thing Waldo has written has even approached asserting there is scientific evidence of god.
 
2014-03-17 06:54:35 PM

Waldo Pepper: as the end times gets closer


Yes, the end times are getting closer - every day is closer to the estimated 1.2 billion years from now when the sun enters the red giant phase. Were you claiming something sooner?
 
2014-03-17 07:00:46 PM

Bawdy George: Waldo Pepper: as the end times gets closer

Yes, the end times are getting closer - every day is closer to the estimated 1.2 billion years from now when the sun enters the red giant phase. Were you claiming something sooner?


I find this statement from Waldo preposterous as well, but let's stick to the topic. A belief that the "end times" are in any way near (or in any way real) goes with the territory of Waldo's brand of faith. Further threadjacking is pointless and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
 
2014-03-17 07:10:54 PM

Bawdy George: Waldo Pepper: as the end times gets closer

Yes, the end times are getting closer - every day is closer to the estimated 1.2 billion years from now when the sun enters the red giant phase. Were you claiming something sooner?


Since this is Fark....so you agree we are closer to the end times then we were yesterday. ;-)
 
2014-03-17 07:20:06 PM

abb3w: Waldo Pepper: I guess if you base your views of Christians on a high percent of commentators I will admit you are correct. Might I suggest not viewing Christians thru the eyes of the media/hollywood.

I was merely pointing to that as a convenient source of examples. While my own circle of acquaintance is also hardly a representative sample, its also one of the arguments I've more frequently encountered in person, and in various apologetics literature in theology journals.


Okay I'll give you that example.  Of course in those type of journals and the same goes for the opposite side, one will always hear the same type of arguments "you can't prove God exist" "what about the gaps in the fossil record", "BANANAS!!!" "Why does God allow evil things to happen to good people/kids".  

It was good to hear the host say "we don't have all the answers" and it's the same thing I say about the Bible it doesn't supply all the details on every little thing. At times I wish it did supply all the answers but then i realize how boring life would be if we had them.
 
2014-03-17 07:22:23 PM

100 Watt Walrus: Not one thing Waldo has written has even approached asserting there is scientific evidence of god.


He's asserting Biblical certainty, and he's asserting that there is scientific evidence of its validity. You CAN NOT have Biblical certainty without presupposing the existence of God. He's dressing it in soft word usage (ie: Intelligent Design or Pantheism as placeholders for Creationism) to dance around the point but that is essentially what he wants to affirm.

I have no interest in such weasel language. Let's get to the point and say what we mean.
 
2014-03-17 07:26:52 PM

Waldo Pepper: It was good to hear the host say "we don't have all the answers" and it's the same thing I say about the Bible it doesn't supply all the details on every little thing. At times I wish it did supply all the answers but then i realize how boring life would be if we had them.


I notice that the only answers the Bible provides are on subjects that science hasn't fully investigated yet.

I also notice that those answers are becoming less and less as time goes on.
 
2014-03-17 07:37:00 PM

Ishkur: 100 Watt Walrus: Not one thing Waldo has written has even approached asserting there is scientific evidence of god.

He's asserting Biblical certainty, and he's asserting that there is scientific evidence of its validity. You CAN NOT have Biblical certainty without presupposing the existence of God. He's dressing it in soft word usage (ie: Intelligent Design or Pantheism as placeholders for Creationism) to dance around the point but that is essentially what he wants to affirm.

I have no interest in such weasel language. Let's get to the point and say what we mean.


I have never denied that I believe in Creationism, I can take the science that we have today and measure it with the Bible and see how it applies.  

Now can one read the Bible and learn about the history of the figures in the Bible with presupposing the existence of God?

Did King David exist and can one learn about him in the Bible and still be an Atheist?
 
2014-03-17 08:02:05 PM

Waldo Pepper: I have never denied that I believe in Creationism, I can take the science that we have today and measure it with the Bible and see how it applies.


And what has science taught you about the Bible?

Waldo Pepper: Now can one read the Bible and learn about the history of the figures in the Bible with presupposing the existence of God?


Conveniently, only the ones that don't exist.

Waldo Pepper: Did King David exist and can one learn about him in the Bible and still be an Atheist?


No, don't start with David. Start at the beginning. You can't can't skip 33 generations and 9 whole books in the Bible and assert that because one easy example may have existed, therefore the whole thing is true.

The Bible does have some true stuff in it. No one has ever disputed that. But having some true things is a far cry from Biblical certainty -- that everything in it is true.
 
2014-03-17 08:10:04 PM

Ishkur: Waldo Pepper: I have never denied that I believe in Creationism, I can take the science that we have today and measure it with the Bible and see how it applies.

And what has science taught you about the Bible?

Waldo Pepper: Now can one read the Bible and learn about the history of the figures in the Bible with presupposing the existence of God?

Conveniently, only the ones that don't exist.

Waldo Pepper: Did King David exist and can one learn about him in the Bible and still be an Atheist?

No, don't start with David. Start at the beginning. You can't can't skip 33 generations and 9 whole books in the Bible and assert that because one easy example may have existed, therefore the whole thing is true.

The Bible does have some true stuff in it. No one has ever disputed that. But having some true things is a far cry from Biblical certainty -- that everything in it is true.


You: You CAN NOT have Biblical certainty without presupposing the existence of God. 

i'm simply proving that a person can have Bible certainty without presupposing the existence of God.  From an historical view there is quite a bit of the Bible that can be proven to have existed without presupposing God.  From a scientific standpoint. I'm willing to bet that some of the advice on farming, where to build one's house, what is clean to eat (during time period) are all quite accurate and hold up to today's science. 

Why are you so eager to try and prove my belief in God is wrong?
 
2014-03-17 08:43:44 PM

Waldo Pepper: i'm simply proving that a person can have Bible certainty without presupposing the existence of God.


How?

Waldo Pepper: From an historical view there is quite a bit of the Bible that can be proven to have existed without presupposing God. From a scientific standpoint


Okay, Genesis chapters 1-20. Without presupposing God. Go.

Waldo Pepper: I'm willing to bet that some of the advice on farming, where to build one's house, what is clean to eat (during time period) are all quite accurate and hold up to today's science.


They hold up about as well as their claims that bats were birds (Leviticus 11:13-19), insects had four legs (Leviticus 11:20), rabbits chew cud (Leviticus 11:6), doctors can't cure people as well as God (2 Chronicles 16:12-13), the number Pi is 3 (1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chronicles 4:2), ostriches didn't take care of their eggs (Job 39:13-16), stars were smaller than the Earth (Revelation 8:10), the moon has its own light source (Isaiah 13:10), the Earth existed before the sun (Genesis 1:1), and they got absolutely everything wrong about female physiology (Deuteronomy 22:13-16).

They also thought the heart, not the brain, was the center of thought, emotion and moral understanding (dozens of references including John 14:1, Matthew 5:28, Luke 6:45, Ephesians 5:19, Isaiah 6:10 and Romans 10:10). There is also some 60 references, give or take, to the Earth being a flat circular disk, a flat square, fixed, supported by pillars or a foundation of some sort, surrounded by water, unmoving, unchanging or at the center of the solar system. Whenever they describe the dimensions of the Earth, there is never any mention of it being a sphere, circling the sun, or rotating on an axis.

Is that the kind of science you're talking about?

Waldo Pepper: Why are you so eager to try and prove my belief in God is wrong?


I'm not eager to try and prove your belief in God is wrong. I want to understand why you think your belief in God is right.
 
2014-03-17 08:54:45 PM

Ishkur: Waldo Pepper: i'm simply proving that a person can have Bible certainty without presupposing the existence of God.

How?

Waldo Pepper: From an historical view there is quite a bit of the Bible that can be proven to have existed without presupposing God. From a scientific standpoint

Okay, Genesis chapters 1-20. Without presupposing God. Go.

Waldo Pepper: I'm willing to bet that some of the advice on farming, where to build one's house, what is clean to eat (during time period) are all quite accurate and hold up to today's science.

They hold up about as well as their claims that bats were birds (Leviticus 11:13-19), insects had four legs (Leviticus 11:20), rabbits chew cud (Leviticus 11:6), doctors can't cure people as well as God (2 Chronicles 16:12-13), the number Pi is 3 (1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chronicles 4:2), ostriches didn't take care of their eggs (Job 39:13-16), stars were smaller than the Earth (Revelation 8:10), the moon has its own light source (Isaiah 13:10), the Earth existed before the sun (Genesis 1:1), and they got absolutely everything wrong about female physiology (Deuteronomy 22:13-16).

They also thought the heart, not the brain, was the center of thought, emotion and moral understanding (dozens of references including John 14:1, Matthew 5:28, Luke 6:45, Ephesians 5:19, Isaiah 6:10 and Romans 10:10). There is also some 60 references, give or take, to the Earth being a flat circular disk, a flat square, fixed, supported by pillars or a foundation of some sort, surrounded by water, unmoving, unchanging or at the center of the solar system. Whenever they describe the dimensions of the Earth, there is never any mention of it being a sphere, circling the sun, or rotating on an axis.

Is that the kind of science you're talking about?

Waldo Pepper: Why are you so eager to try and prove my belief in God is wrong?

I'm not eager to try and prove your belief in God is wrong. I want to understand why you think your belief in God is right.


My answer was in response to this part of the thread and no where did I say everything was proven scientifically in the Bible
I appreciate that you aren't demanding anything, and you seem reasonable for the most part, but let's not pretend your beliefs have any mooring in reality.


my beliefs have moorings in reality. There is a written history that goes back thousands of years. You may not accept those writings are accurate but I do and there has been some scientific and historic backing to events in the that are in those writing.

 

so instead of understanding what I wrote about being able to gain knowledge from the Bible without believing in God you decide to play the old game of "what about this and that verse."   Sorry I don't play that game.
 
2014-03-17 09:19:57 PM
Ishkur, I'm all for being able to intelligently quote the absurdities of the bible to thumpers and literalists, but Waldo is quite clearly neither. He's in this thread because he doesn't have a problem reconciling scientific fact with his christianity.

Save your gotchas and interrogations for brick-headed, hypocritical, anti-science nitwits who see the world in black-and-white, and be glad there exist in the world some people of faith who think for themselves instead of letting someone behind a pulpit do it for them.
 
2014-03-17 09:20:35 PM
Oops. Formatting fail. Not shouting at ya, Ishkur.
 
2014-03-17 09:30:44 PM

Waldo Pepper: so instead of understanding what I wrote about being able to gain knowledge from the Bible without believing in God you decide to play the old game of "what about this and that verse." Sorry I don't play that game.


WHAT KNOWLEDGE CAN BE GAINED FROM THE BIBLE WITHOUT BELIEVING IN GOD? Be specific. Answer just one of my questions, please.

I am asking you, ONE LAST TIME, how Biblical certainty is scientifically verified and you have YET to provide me with a single shred of evidence. You've already conceded that not all of it is, which means Biblical certainty is anything but. So now we're just working on the details.

If you are either unwilling or unable to do this, then don't assert things you don't intend to back up and which you aren't even sure are true.
 
2014-03-17 09:33:29 PM

100 Watt Walrus: Ishkur, I'm all for being able to intelligently quote the absurdities of the bible to thumpers and literalists, but Waldo is quite clearly neither. He's in this thread because he doesn't have a problem reconciling scientific fact with his christianity.


I know exactly what he's doing. He's been doing this for years. He's Fark's most considerate religious concern troll.

But at least he's not annoying (like He Who Shall Not Be Named or even the other He Who Shall Not Be Named).
 
2014-03-17 09:56:12 PM

Ishkur: Waldo Pepper: so instead of understanding what I wrote about being able to gain knowledge from the Bible without believing in God you decide to play the old game of "what about this and that verse." Sorry I don't play that game.

WHAT KNOWLEDGE CAN BE GAINED FROM THE BIBLE WITHOUT BELIEVING IN GOD? Be specific. Answer just one of my questions, please.


There is a lot of wonderful advice in the book of proverbs, in the Psalms one can learn how to write poetry.  The song of Solomon one can gain some sexual knowledge.   1 Corinthians offers great advice on love. Great advice on how to deal with people and even some outstanding lessons on how to be a leader.

In Jonah 2:5-6 he mentions mountains at the bottom of the ocean which I doubt anyone was able to go that deep on their own

The Earth being round Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
 
2014-03-18 12:21:46 AM

Waldo Pepper: There is a lot of wonderful advice in the book of proverbs, in the Psalms one can learn how to write poetry. The song of Solomon one can gain some sexual knowledge. 1 Corinthians offers great advice on love. Great advice on how to deal with people and even some outstanding lessons on how to be a leader.
In Jonah 2:5-6 he mentions mountains at the bottom of the ocean which I doubt anyone was able to go that deep on their own


None of these are scientific evidence.

Waldo Pepper: The Earth being round Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,


You cheater, you didn't quote the whole passage: "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

How do you stretch the Heavens around a sphere like a tent? Tents are stretched out over flat surfaces. He's talking about a disc.

A circle is not a sphere. There are many references of it being a flat disc because the sun and moon are flat discs. And there are many references to the sea encircling all the land, and the sky being upheld by pillars. This was the common view throughout the entire Ancient near east, so it's not something the Hebrews invented.
 
2014-03-18 07:40:34 AM

Ishkur: Waldo Pepper: There is a lot of wonderful advice in the book of proverbs, in the Psalms one can learn how to write poetry. The song of Solomon one can gain some sexual knowledge. 1 Corinthians offers great advice on love. Great advice on how to deal with people and even some outstanding lessons on how to be a leader.
In Jonah 2:5-6 he mentions mountains at the bottom of the ocean which I doubt anyone was able to go that deep on their own

None of these are scientific evidence.

Waldo Pepper: The Earth being round Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,

You cheater, you didn't quote the whole passage: "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

How do you stretch the Heavens around a sphere like a tent? Tents are stretched out over flat surfaces. He's talking about a disc.

A circle is not a sphere. There are many references of it being a flat disc because the sun and moon are flat discs. And there are many references to the sea encircling all the land, and the sky being upheld by pillars. This was the common view throughout the entire Ancient near east, so it's not something the Hebrews invented.


This is your questions and being in caps I assume it was the most important point
WHAT KNOWLEDGE CAN BE GAINED FROM THE BIBLE WITHOUT BELIEVING IN GOD?

I cited you quite a bit of knowledge in the Bible that is useful without believing in God, you choose to ignore your own question and then shift the goalposts to my answer not being of science.

I could argue these are social sciences, but then you would claim that really isn't science and then I would argue "who gave you the power to claim what is a science" and we would go round and round on that one.


but it is evidence that has been proven by science. What do you expect me to find  a passage that is a scientific study. It is the Bible and not a science book.  Wow you limit tents to what you know and not what is possible.

just admit you hate Christians and your only reasons for asking these questions is that you have memorized set arguments that you others have invented that you feel makes you look smart.  

Oh and sometime to think about, in our discussion I made you look up verses in the Bible a book that you despise. game, set and match. 

Thanks for playing.
 
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