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(BBC-US)   Exit polling in Crimea shows 93% of voters in favor of leaving Ukraine for Russia. Problem solved, right?   (bbc.com) divider line 44
    More: Followup, Ukraine, Crimean, Russia, ethnic Russians, Independence Square, Prime Minister of Ukraine, Donetsk, exit polls  
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6462 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Mar 2014 at 4:00 PM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2014-03-16 04:11:14 PM  
11 votes:
So, is this how it works? Let's see if that works here! Wouldn't that be grand!?

1. Texans move en masse to Mexico, but only to the Chihuahua and Coahuila states.
2. The United States claims that pro-Texas Mexicans are being threatened.
3. The United States marches unmarked troops and equipment across the U.S.-Mexico border into those two states.
4. The United States justifies the occupation by claiming to be there solely to ensure the safety of pro-Texas Mexicans. We lock up Mexican troops in their own bases, and pro-Texas supporters beat the ever-loving crap out of any native Mexican who protests the occupation.
5. When other governing bodies, such as the EU, complain about the clearly illegal occupation, the United States brings up decades of illegal occupations around the world.
6. Meanwhile, U.S. supporters wage a viral war for hearts and minds on the Internet.
7. The pro-Texas Mexicans construct their own interim government, and then hold a "vote" as to whether the Chihuahua & Coahuila states should become part of Texas.
8. The vote, stunningly, is 93% in favor of joining Texas, as most native Mexicans have gotten the hell out of Chihuahua & Coahuila.

That sounds legit!
2014-03-16 03:23:12 PM  
4 votes:
You can't get 90% of a population to agree to ANYTHING without some threat or fiddling with numbers.

They should have aimed for 70something%.  Still an overwhelming mandate without that "dictatorial" feel to it.
2014-03-16 04:14:39 PM  
3 votes:

FormlessOne: So, is this how it works? Let's see if that works here! Wouldn't that be grand!?

1. Texans move en masse to Mexico, but only to the Chihuahua and Coahuila states.
2. The United States claims that pro-Texas Mexicans are being threatened.
3. The United States marches unmarked troops and equipment across the U.S.-Mexico border into those two states.
4. The United States justifies the occupation by claiming to be there solely to ensure the safety of pro-Texas Mexicans. We lock up Mexican troops in their own bases, and pro-Texas supporters beat the ever-loving crap out of any native Mexican who protests the occupation.
5. When other governing bodies, such as the EU, complain about the clearly illegal occupation, the United States brings up decades of illegal occupations around the world.
6. Meanwhile, U.S. supporters wage a viral war for hearts and minds on the Internet.
7. The pro-Texas Mexicans construct their own interim government, and then hold a "vote" as to whether the Chihuahua & Coahuila states should become part of Texas.
8. The vote, stunningly, is 93% in favor of joining Texas, as most native Mexicans have gotten the hell out of Chihuahua & Coahuila.

That sounds legit!


It kinda did work out that what when Texas split from Mexico to become it own country, then joined the US
2014-03-16 04:13:14 PM  
3 votes:

Ambivalence: You can't get 90% of a population to agree to ANYTHING without some threat or fiddling with numbers.

They should have aimed for 70something%.  Still an overwhelming mandate without that "dictatorial" feel to it.


CNN showed footage of people voting twice while the "observers" sat and watched.

Guess Crimea is like Russia after all.
2014-03-16 04:01:45 PM  
3 votes:

hi13760: I wonder what happen to the other 7% ?


Siberia.
2014-03-16 02:31:33 PM  
3 votes:
So pack your sh*t and GTFO. Maybe the rest of Ukraine doesn't want to cede territory to their bully neighbor.
2014-03-16 06:31:41 PM  
2 votes:
There were a lot of independence movements in Mexico following their independence from Spain after 1821.  They got fierce after Santa Anna abrogated the Constitution in 1834.  After containing the one in Yucutan, he turned to the one in Coahuila and the one in Chihuahua, which were quickly handled as well.  The problem with the one in Tejas was that although the territory was very sparsely populated and Santa Anna had an army of about 6,500, there were almost no settlers in Tejas that weren't Engish-speaking immigrants that mostly came from Tennessee or other parts of what was then the United States.  Their trading settlement in what is now Santa Fe, NM was not a factor.  The Tejans raised an army of 2,000 and managed to prevail trough a combination of luck, knowledge of the local territory and loyalty of the settlers, long supply lines for Santa Ana's army, and, of course, innovative and aggressive tactics.

For some, but not enough, of this, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mexico#Political_developments _ in_the_South_and_North

This is NOT what is going on in Crimea; others have addressed the history and numbers there.  I'm sure that Russians in Russia are firmly confident that Russians everywhere would like to be under Russian control; hey, <irony> ask any Russian immigrant in Europe or the USA. </irony>.  Other votes for secession or annexation have been addressed here; I think we can all agree that such votes do not legitimize violations of territory and sovereignty.

"Those who vote decide nothing.  Those who count the votes decide everything."  -Stalin

But history tells us that sovereignty is determined by the reality of control after the fact, not by argument.

Russia has a historical need for buffer territory across the European plains between Moscow and Europe to feel secure.  But the only true security for Moscow is the full normalization of peaceful relations with their immediate neighbors.  By annexing Crimea and possibly part or all of the Ukraine, they are destroying this route to true security for at least a generation, and may just possibly be assuring themselves of yet another European war, eventually.
2014-03-16 05:13:20 PM  
2 votes:

brandent: that's an unusually ignorant position even for Fark.  You do realize the ethnic makeup and history of Crimea right?  I knew you did.


-Crimea is majority Russian, but it's not 95% Russian. Closer to 54%.
-the referendum itself was set up in such a way that status quo wasn't even an option. How is that legitimate even if it wasn't illegal to begin with?
-many groups, significantly the Tartars, outright boycotted the vote
-counter-Russian media was severely suppressed. Anti-Russian websites were shut down, TV studios were taken over by troops and the pro-Russian media that remained flat out called the Kyiv gov't Nazis
2014-03-16 04:47:44 PM  
2 votes:

Nemo's Brother: Now Obama can ignore the crossed line he drew in the sand. "This is a good day for democracy" he will say.


Okay Admiral McArchairforce, do tell us what Obama should do and what the future ramafications will be.  Up to and including what the costs in lives, the future financial burdens, and the future stability/instability of the region will be like.

Got no answers?   I thought not.   Now please STFU and sit down.
2014-03-16 04:38:03 PM  
2 votes:

FormlessOne: Actually, China's largely stayed out of this conversation. They did, after all, abstain during the Security Council semaphore. China's more interested to see how this shakes out, especially as they have their own territorial turmoil with which to deal.


If China is playing the long game, they stand to gain since their population is booming while Russia's is declining. There are parts of Russia that are already majority ethnic Chinese. All they have to do is wait for Russia to continue to decline while the Chinese population grows inside Russia's borders.
2014-03-16 04:35:36 PM  
2 votes:
s13.postimg.org
2014-03-16 04:28:08 PM  
2 votes:
Meanwhile at the Ukraine/Russian border (and with 96% of the vote in)

i3.photobucket.com
2014-03-16 04:26:22 PM  
2 votes:

FormlessOne: So, is this how it works? Let's see if that works here! Wouldn't that be grand!?

1. Texans move en masse to Mexico, but only to the Chihuahua and Coahuila states.
2. The United States claims that pro-Texas Mexicans are being threatened.
3. The United States marches unmarked troops and equipment across the U.S.-Mexico border into those two states.
4. The United States justifies the occupation by claiming to be there solely to ensure the safety of pro-Texas Mexicans. We lock up Mexican troops in their own bases, and pro-Texas supporters beat the ever-loving crap out of any native Mexican who protests the occupation.
5. When other governing bodies, such as the EU, complain about the clearly illegal occupation, the United States brings up decades of illegal occupations around the world.
6. Meanwhile, U.S. supporters wage a viral war for hearts and minds on the Internet.
7. The pro-Texas Mexicans construct their own interim government, and then hold a "vote" as to whether the Chihuahua & Coahuila states should become part of Texas.
8. The vote, stunningly, is 93% in favor of joining Texas, as most native Mexicans have gotten the hell out of Chihuahua & Coahuila.

That sounds legit!


You realize this is how we got Texas?
2014-03-16 04:19:45 PM  
2 votes:
So I'm sure any time there's a vote for a Russian territory to secede, Moscow just hands them a gift basket and says "good luck."
2014-03-16 04:19:14 PM  
2 votes:
thebacklot.mtvnimages.com

"Hey Ukraine, you just got PUTOWN'D!!!"

/But seriously, this man is a James Bond villain.
2014-03-16 04:14:29 PM  
2 votes:
Doesn't matter what Crimea wants.  it only matters what 'merica wants.
2014-03-16 03:46:20 PM  
2 votes:
That's a very russian result.
2014-03-16 03:10:06 PM  
2 votes:
encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
/hot, hot image
It's pretty sad when Kim Jong Un's election results are more of a surprise than this one. Other dictatorships at least attempt to appear legitimate, as laughable as they seem.

Well, Putin. You got your mandate with an election you staged. Annex away!
2014-03-16 02:21:44 PM  
2 votes:
i1182.photobucket.com
2014-03-17 12:18:56 AM  
1 votes:

greentea1985: That's actually pretty close to how the US got Texas and Hawaii. In the case of Texas, Mexico invited immigrants from the fledgling US, who came in droves. Mexico felt over-whelmed, stopped immigration, and tried to strip away rights from the new arrivals, who kept on coming. The Texans rebelled and got their own country, then chose to join the US. In the case of Hawaii, US citizens started moving there in order to start plantations for a variety of products including sugarcane. The planters forced the King of Hawaii to sign an unfair constitution, then overthrew his successor when she tried to reduce the strength of the planters. The planters petitioned the US to make Hawaii a US territority and Hawaii eventually became a state.



Thank you for remembering how Hawaii came to be part of the US.  It was one of the most blatant abuses of an independent people in the service of "manifest destiny".

www.abebooks.com

^ "Unfamiliar Fishes" is a great book, by the way.
2014-03-16 09:19:26 PM  
1 votes:
Exit polling in Crimea shows 93% of voters in favor of leaving Ukraine for Russia.

Then by all means, they should move to Russia as soon as possible.
2014-03-16 09:14:31 PM  
1 votes:
biatch, whine, make sarcastic comments and complain.

Either NATO gets involved or it tosses Ukraine under the bus -- what it boils down to is a European problem.  Secession and becoming part of another confederation has happened through history, but usually those trying to secede get a good stomping from those they are trying to secede from.  No shiat Putin had his hand up to his elbow in this, but the fact is a chunk of the Ukraine's population wanted to buddy up with their cultural brethren, and there was a whole lot of shiat that was going down before this that would have contributed to this. (The democratically elected leader was OUSTED by a coup, remember?)

Do you want to go to war over this?  You.  Parked in front of your computer playing pundit or armchair general.  This wouldn't be Crimea War 2, but World War 3.  Brush up on your history, namely the devastation caused by Allied bombings in Europe during the last World War, and the atomic bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima in Japan.  Just because you are across the Atlantic doesn't mean an ICBM can't make your day the worst one in your life.  Or what would be the last few seconds of it,

I've still got some contacts in the military and government agencies, and what I've gleaned from them means the next six months are going to be ones of massive sphincter tightening,  But their are plans in motion to deal with this situation.  You may not get the instant gratification of a video game, but Putin is going to feel the squeeze like he has never felt it before,  Sanctions, rearming of every country and state around Russia, no more slap and tickle international policy but the good old-fashioned "we are going to fark you over at every opportunity" strategy they used during the last cold war.  Putin was left alone because he was the only one who could keep that corrupt mess that Russia turned into together without it turning into a totally destabilized mess with nuclear weapons, but now he's going to get the time-out of his life.

It is just going to take time.  That, and Nato and other European and Asian AND Middle-East states need that to get their shiat together just in case someone decides to deviate from the playbook.  Let Russia babysit the Crimea.  Let the Russians there celebrate whatever they think they accomplished.  It will just make it easier to bomb them into submission it if comes to that.

Six months.  It will be one hell of a ride, but just enjoy it instead of blaming everyone that can't do shiat about it and salivating over the idea of MAD.  That is Mutually Assured Destruction, if you forgot the fact that there are still enough nukes to kill off the entire population of the planet several times over.
2014-03-16 08:59:23 PM  
1 votes:

gfid: And another thing.  They keep saying shiat like Crimea is mostly made up of "ethnic Russians".  WTF is an ethnic Russian and why does that even matter?

Somehow, I don't think it's a big deal.  I live in the US, but I could move to Canada where they also speak English (except for the Frenchy parts).  I would blend in very well.  I could maybe even become a Canadian citizen.  Would I think of myself as ethnically American?  No, I'd just be another white guy living in Canada.

These "ethnic Russians" who have been living in Crimea for all of their lives are Crimean now.  It wouldn't matter if their great great grandparents were Lenin or the Czar.  You were born in Crimea or maybe you've lived there for 50+ years..  You're not Russian anymore.

I really don't even see any difference.  It's all former Soviet Union people anyway so I lump them all together as ethnically Soviet.

Racism and bigotry are so simple in the US.  It's all about black vs. white vs. brown, but in places like China and the former Soviet Union and the Middle East and even South America it's much more complicated.  It breaks down on very subtle definitions of ethnicity and religion and it's farking stupid.


To be fair, it's pretty stupid when we do it here too.
2014-03-16 07:30:58 PM  
1 votes:

Saturn5: Ambivalence: You can't get 90% of a population to agree to ANYTHING without some threat or fiddling with numbers.

They should have aimed for 70something%.  Still an overwhelming mandate without that "dictatorial" feel to it.

But 90% of Americans want strict gun control!


The actual stat is 90% of Americans support expanded background checks which I, as a gun owner, support as well. But if you need to justify your opinion by twisting and misstating facts, go right ahead.
2014-03-16 07:05:35 PM  
1 votes:

FormlessOne: uber humper: FormlessOne: So, is this how it works? Let's see if that works here! Wouldn't that be grand!?

1. Texans move en masse to Mexico, but only to the Chihuahua and Coahuila states.
2. The United States claims that pro-Texas Mexicans are being threatened.
3. The United States marches unmarked troops and equipment across the U.S.-Mexico border into those two states.
4. The United States justifies the occupation by claiming to be there solely to ensure the safety of pro-Texas Mexicans. We lock up Mexican troops in their own bases, and pro-Texas supporters beat the ever-loving crap out of any native Mexican who protests the occupation.
5. When other governing bodies, such as the EU, complain about the clearly illegal occupation, the United States brings up decades of illegal occupations around the world.
6. Meanwhile, U.S. supporters wage a viral war for hearts and minds on the Internet.
7. The pro-Texas Mexicans construct their own interim government, and then hold a "vote" as to whether the Chihuahua & Coahuila states should become part of Texas.
8. The vote, stunningly, is 93% in favor of joining Texas, as most native Mexicans have gotten the hell out of Chihuahua & Coahuila.

That sounds legit!

It kinda did work out that what when Texas split from Mexico to become it own country, then joined the US

Point
.
.
.
.
..
..
..
..
...
...
...
...
You

It's why I don't view the Alamo as anything but a symbol of national shame, and why so many folks still remind the United States that, yeah, we used to do this, too.



Yeah I remember when the Alamo happened and then the US Army invaded Texas in response and conquered it too. Oh wait that didn't happen.
2014-03-16 06:39:48 PM  
1 votes:

mhd: lucksi: Great, now Bavaria wants to be their own country as well....

Scotland is next in line.

/And Texas will secede before Bavarian "independence" has any bite beyond drunk arguments by people wearing silly hats.


The trouble with Scotland is its full of scots.
2014-03-16 05:49:45 PM  
1 votes:

iron de havilland: Techhell: There are only two things that may stop Russia. 1) Bombs. 2) The EU turning off the gas.

You know that Russia supplies gas to the EU, right?

Your statement reads like you think that the EU supplies gas to Russia.

But that's a major factor in why the EU hasn't been all over Putin.


The cash Russia gets from said gas is a -major- part of their economy.
2014-03-16 05:17:43 PM  
1 votes:
really, who farking cares, indeed?

i'm sure it's all one big shiathole
2014-03-16 05:04:40 PM  
1 votes:
The only options available on the Crimean secession vote were the following:

"Do you support joining Crimea with the Russian Federation as a citizen of the Russian Federation?"'
"Do you support restoration of 1992 Crimean Constitution and Crimea's status as a part of Ukraine?"

There was no vote option to remain a non-autonomous section of Ukraine, and as such, anyone that wasn't supporting some form of independence boycotted and stayed home.
2014-03-16 04:41:34 PM  
1 votes:
Now Obama can ignore the crossed line he drew in the sand. "This is a good day for democracy" he will say.
2014-03-16 04:40:45 PM  
1 votes:

EngineerAU: FormlessOne: Actually, China's largely stayed out of this conversation. They did, after all, abstain during the Security Council semaphore. China's more interested to see how this shakes out, especially as they have their own territorial turmoil with which to deal.

If China is playing the long game, they stand to gain since their population is booming while Russia's is declining. There are parts of Russia that are already majority ethnic Chinese. All they have to do is wait for Russia to continue to decline while the Chinese population grows inside Russia's borders.


China is facing a population bomb.  With the one child law for a couple/few generations they are reaching a point where there will be less than 2 workers per retiree in less than 20 years
2014-03-16 04:38:29 PM  
1 votes:
So they are going to have one of these secession votes in Chechnya soon, right?
2014-03-16 04:33:02 PM  
1 votes:

Fark_Guy_Rob: drjekel_mrhyde: Why do we even care? About a million people will die in Africa, South America and Asia this year from insects, but we can give one shiat about that.

It's mostly about money.  The Ukraine and Russia supply natural resources to the rest of the EU.  Competition means lower prices and the EU has better relations with the Ukraine than with Russia.  Russia gaining control of Crimea and potentially the Ukraine, or just having more political influence means they can jack up the prices.  Kinda like how the oil rich countries in the middle east can all agree to raise prices when it is in their own best interests.

The US doesn't care too much about it, but the EU does.  And the US is an EU ally - so we're going to side with the EU.  China is a Russian ally and, shockingly, they support Russia's position.  The US cares more about keeping Russia from gaining power.  More land, more resources, more citizens == more power.  It's the same reason we didn't let the South leave the US - because money, resources, and power.


Actually, China's largely stayed out of this conversation. They did, after all, abstain during the Security Council semaphore. China's more interested to see how this shakes out, especially as they have their own territorial turmoil with which to deal.
2014-03-16 04:32:29 PM  
1 votes:

Oldiron_79: Well Crimea voted to secede, Im assuming the Ukraine will consider seceding Crimea as legit as the US considered the CSA.


Any state in the US can secede if they do so in accordance with the Constitution. Currently, as was the case in the 1860s, there was no method spelled out in the Constitution on how this should happen. But it does allow for amendments. If any state wants to leave, all they need to do is have an amendment added that either explicitly removes them from the United States or lays out the procedure for a state to do so. Canada for example has an explicit process spelled out in the Clarity Act for provinces to secede. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that Ukraine has the same law as Canada, just that every country is different and you can't use the Confederacy as a legal argument for Crimea.

FormlessOne: So, is this how it works? Let's see if that works here! Wouldn't that be grand!?

1. Texans move en masse to Mexico, but only to the Chihuahua and Coahuila states.
2. The United States claims that pro-Texas Mexicans are being threatened.
3. The United States marches unmarked troops and equipment across the U.S.-Mexico border into those two states.
4. The United States justifies the occupation by claiming to be there solely to ensure the safety of pro-Texas Mexicans. We lock up Mexican troops in their own bases, and pro-Texas supporters beat the ever-loving crap out of any native Mexican who protests the occupation.
5. When other governing bodies, such as the EU, complain about the clearly illegal occupation, the United States brings up decades of illegal occupations around the world.
6. Meanwhile, U.S. supporters wage a viral war for hearts and minds on the Internet.
7. The pro-Texas Mexicans construct their own interim government, and then hold a "vote" as to whether the Chihuahua & Coahuila states should become part of Texas.
8. The vote, stunningly, is 93% in favor of joining Texas, as most native Mexicans have gotten the hell out of Chihuahua & Coahuila.

That sounds legit!


That's pretty much how quite a bit of the United States came to be.
2014-03-16 04:28:08 PM  
1 votes:
Were these same people asked to pick up a can, too?
2014-03-16 04:23:51 PM  
1 votes:

iron de havilland: violentsalvation: So pack your sh*t and GTFO. Maybe the rest of Ukraine doesn't want to cede territory to their bully neighbor.

Yeah, this.

You want to be Russian? Move to farking Russia.

The real problem is that so many European countries depend on Russian gas and investments. I would dearly love for my government to administer Putin a richly deserved swift punch to the cock. But it won't happen. Eastern European nations that have been farked over by Russia in the past are very edgy at the moment.

I sincerely hope that the civilised world has the balls to tell Putin to fark off. Eject them from the G8. Sink the rouble. Give Russia's security council seat to Ukraine, just for shiats and giggles.


This is actually a problem with leadership across the world.

Occasionally, guys spring up who NEED to be taken out. Putin needed to be taken out before he even made it into office.
2014-03-16 04:21:16 PM  
1 votes:

violentsalvation: So pack your sh*t and GTFO. Maybe the rest of Ukraine doesn't want to cede territory to their bully neighbor.


Yeah, this.

You want to be Russian? Move to farking Russia.

The real problem is that so many European countries depend on Russian gas and investments. I would dearly love for my government to administer Putin a richly deserved swift punch to the cock. But it won't happen. Eastern European nations that have been farked over by Russia in the past are very edgy at the moment.

I sincerely hope that the civilised world has the balls to tell Putin to fark off. Eject them from the G8. Sink the rouble. Give Russia's security council seat to Ukraine, just for shiats and giggles.
2014-03-16 04:17:29 PM  
1 votes:
Great, now Bavaria wants to be their own country as well....

/anyone seen voting photos of something other than guys in camo gear or kids wayyy to young to vote?
2014-03-16 04:12:44 PM  
1 votes:
Why do we even care? About a million people will die in Africa, South America and Asia this year from insects, but we can give one shiat about that.
2014-03-16 04:12:12 PM  
1 votes:

uber humper: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 528x456]


Tool or troll? You decide!
/tool
2014-03-16 04:05:27 PM  
1 votes:
3.bp.blogspot.com
2014-03-16 03:44:31 PM  
1 votes:
Russia has never had a more legitimate claim on anything than this.

So, really, it's like 15% legitimate. Maybe even as high as 20%.
2014-03-16 03:43:23 PM  
1 votes:
I wonder what happen to the other 7% ?
2014-03-16 03:42:07 PM  
1 votes:

Ambivalence: You can't get 90% of a population to agree to ANYTHING without some threat or fiddling with numbers.

They should have aimed for 70something%.  Still an overwhelming mandate without that "dictatorial" feel to it.


Good call. 70% even seems high - just try asking folks around the office what they want for takeout.
 
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