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(UPI)   Russia vetoes UN Security Council resolution on Ukraine because of course they farking did, did anyone at the UN with more than two brain cells think anything else would happen?   (upi.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, U.N. Security Council, Security Council resolutions, Russia, Ukraine, Russia vetoes, brain cells, territorial integrity, vetoes  
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512 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Mar 2014 at 11:59 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-16 08:45:11 AM  
I've seen bowls of plain pasta with more power than the UN.
 
2014-03-16 09:33:33 AM  
That's it, let's bomb them. That's the only logical action left
 
2014-03-16 09:44:32 AM  
Even China didn't vote against the resolution.
 
2014-03-16 09:48:08 AM  
The UN Security Council is useless by design.
 
2014-03-16 09:51:21 AM  
What a surprise, a vote was taken on something not expected to pass simply to make a point.
 
2014-03-16 10:02:49 AM  

RussianPooper: What a surprise, a vote was taken on something not expected to pass simply to make a point.


Where have I seen this sort of thing before?  Hmmm...
 
2014-03-16 10:07:26 AM  
is there any mechanism to expel a "permanent" member from the security council?
 
2014-03-16 10:22:28 AM  

FlashHarry: is there any mechanism to expel a "permanent" member from the security council?


No. Nor should there be. The entire reason the UN works (to any degree at all) is because the nations powerful enough to upset the apple cart are given ways to keep from resorting to it.
 
2014-03-16 10:24:34 AM  

FlashHarry: is there any mechanism to expel a "permanent" member from the security council?


I'm sure a sternly worded letter will be dispatched imediately
 
2014-03-16 10:29:47 AM  

ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: The UN Security Council is useless by design.


I feel like any nation with veto power should - by force of rule - be barred from exercising said veto power when resolutions would affect them.
 
2014-03-16 10:37:30 AM  

Gecko Gingrich: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: The UN Security Council is useless by design.

I feel like any nation with veto power should - by force of rule - be barred from exercising said veto power when resolutions would affect them.


They didn't do that because the League of Nations failed. Powerful countries have to be involved or the UN would just fall apart. Powerful countries won't participate without this kind of protection. It's dysfunctional, of course, but at the same time, it's not completely useless like the League of Nations.

The veto power isn't making it useless. It's the thing making the UN have any use whatsoever.
 
2014-03-16 11:09:41 AM  

Ricardo Klement: They didn't do that because the League of Nations failed. Powerful countries have to be involved or the UN would just fall apart. Powerful countries won't participate without this kind of protection. It's dysfunctional, of course, but at the same time, it's not completely useless like the League of Nations.

The veto power isn't making it useless. It's the thing making the UN have any use whatsoever.


OK, let's vote on whether Bob is being a dick....oh, Bob's saying we can't do that? Alrighty, then let's go get lunch.
 
2014-03-16 11:37:29 AM  
And now Putin is telling Merkel that he's concerned about the violence his people are causing in Eastern Ukraine.  Oh, and "pro-Russian" units are seizing buildings in Donetsk.
 
2014-03-16 12:02:42 PM  

RussianPooper: What a surprise, a vote was taken on something not expected to pass simply to make a point.


That's the entire goal of the UN.
 
2014-03-16 12:05:14 PM  
UN has to go through due process before the rest of the civilized world can go apeshiat on Russia.
 
2014-03-16 12:08:09 PM  

Mentat: And now Putin is telling Merkel that he's concerned about the violence his people are causing in Eastern Ukraine.  Oh, and "pro-Russian" units are seizing buildings in Donetsk.


At this point I can't figure out whether Putin thinks anybody believes him, just doesn't care, or is simply completely delusional.
 
2014-03-16 12:10:09 PM  
Dog and pony show, but the forms must be obeyed for what comes next.
 
2014-03-16 12:12:13 PM  

Ricardo Klement: FlashHarry: is there any mechanism to expel a "permanent" member from the security council?

No. Nor should there be. The entire reason the UN works (to any degree at all) is because the nations powerful enough to upset the apple cart are given ways to keep from resorting to it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolut io n_2758
Removed "Republic of China" (Taiwan) from the U.N., replaced with "People's Republic of China", as well as its permanent seat on the Security Council.
 
2014-03-16 12:12:20 PM  
Well, now Russia will experience the full consequences of their actions through the incredible and sea-changing actions of UN shame...

...come on Russia...any day now...or we shall SHAME you some more!!!
 
2014-03-16 12:12:36 PM  

Ricardo Klement: They didn't do that because the League of Nations failed. Powerful countries have to be involved or the UN would just fall apart. Powerful countries won't participate without this kind of protection. It's dysfunctional, of course, but at the same time, it's not completely useless like the League of Nations.


...well, really, yeah it is.
 
2014-03-16 12:14:39 PM  

MrGMan: Well, now Russia will experience the full consequences of their actions through the incredible and sea-changing actions of UN shame...

...come on Russia...any day now...or we shall SHAME you some more!!!


You really don't know what's coming, do you?
 
2014-03-16 12:15:49 PM  

IlGreven: Ricardo Klement: They didn't do that because the League of Nations failed. Powerful countries have to be involved or the UN would just fall apart. Powerful countries won't participate without this kind of protection. It's dysfunctional, of course, but at the same time, it's not completely useless like the League of Nations.

...well, really, yeah it is.


The purpose of the United Nations is to prevent World War III.  That's it.

Until there's a World War III, the UN is not useless.
 
2014-03-16 12:17:18 PM  

Tr0mBoNe: I've seen bowls of plain pasta with more power than the UN.


Colonel Ghadaffi hated pasta.
 
2014-03-16 12:21:46 PM  
Its almost like international relations are more complex and nuanced than "don't do that or war"
 
2014-03-16 12:30:31 PM  
I'm sure Putin will be as effective in blocking the forthcoming NATO resolution as well
 
2014-03-16 12:30:39 PM  

Larry Mahnken: IlGreven: Ricardo Klement: They didn't do that because the League of Nations failed. Powerful countries have to be involved or the UN would just fall apart. Powerful countries won't participate without this kind of protection. It's dysfunctional, of course, but at the same time, it's not completely useless like the League of Nations.

...well, really, yeah it is.

The purpose of the United Nations is to prevent World War III.  That's it.

Until there's a World War III, the UN is not useless.


This.  It's a pressure valve.  If you give people a place to talk, they are less likely to start shooting.
 
2014-03-16 12:34:10 PM  

Summoner101: I'm sure Putin will be as effective in blocking the forthcoming NATO resolution as well


NATO has no obligations over Ukraine.

After Bushy Bush jr pissed away every bit of good will and political capital on a 14 year Afghanistan boondoggle NATO isn't about to start doing jack shiat unless Russia actually attacks a treaty state. Which they won't.
 
2014-03-16 12:35:30 PM  

Summoner101: I'm sure Putin will be as effective in blocking the forthcoming NATO resolution as well


That would be a quite a trick, seeing as Russia's not a member of NATO.
 
2014-03-16 12:40:58 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Its almost like international relations are more complex and nuanced than "don't do that or war"


Your newsletter. I would like to subscribe.
 
2014-03-16 12:42:25 PM  

qorkfiend: Summoner101: I'm sure Putin will be as effective in blocking the forthcoming NATO resolution as well

That would be a quite a trick, seeing as Russia's not a member of NATO.


That's the joke.
 
2014-03-16 12:42:46 PM  

Infernalist: MrGMan: Well, now Russia will experience the full consequences of their actions through the incredible and sea-changing actions of UN shame...

...come on Russia...any day now...or we shall SHAME you some more!!!

You really don't know what's coming, do you?


I do, but I wanted to pile on the UN impotency bandwagon. 😛
 
2014-03-16 12:46:23 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Summoner101: I'm sure Putin will be as effective in blocking the forthcoming NATO resolution as well

NATO has no obligations over Ukraine.

After Bushy Bush jr pissed away every bit of good will and political capital on a 14 year Afghanistan boondoggle NATO isn't about to start doing jack shiat unless Russia actually attacks a treaty state. Which they won't.


Considering how many of the European members are showing alarm at Russia's actions, I'm not quite as sure as you that NATO has no interest in Russia's actions in Ukraine.  This especially holds true if Ukraine gets it's act together and applies for membership which, if I recall correctly, has been assumed to be part of Putin's reasoning for this whole debacle in addition to just Ukraine becoming more economically connected to the West.
 
2014-03-16 12:48:17 PM  
 
2014-03-16 12:50:25 PM  

StopLurkListen: Ricardo Klement: FlashHarry: is there any mechanism to expel a "permanent" member from the security council?

No. Nor should there be. The entire reason the UN works (to any degree at all) is because the nations powerful enough to upset the apple cart are given ways to keep from resorting to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolut io n_2758
Removed "Republic of China" (Taiwan) from the U.N., replaced with "People's Republic of China", as well as its permanent seat on the Security Council.


Care to guess why the switch was made?
 
2014-03-16 12:58:46 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-03-16 01:10:26 PM  
 
2014-03-16 01:11:13 PM  

Ricardo Klement: StopLurkListen: Ricardo Klement: FlashHarry: is there any mechanism to expel a "permanent" member from the security council?

No. Nor should there be. The entire reason the UN works (to any degree at all) is because the nations powerful enough to upset the apple cart are given ways to keep from resorting to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolut io n_2758
Removed "Republic of China" (Taiwan) from the U.N., replaced with "People's Republic of China", as well as its permanent seat on the Security Council.

Care to guess why the switch was made?


You answered "no" in that there is no mechanism, and that is incorrect. There is a mechanism for removing a permanent member from the Security Council: a permanent member of the Security Council may be removed if the member is ejected from the United Nations.
 
2014-03-16 01:16:58 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Summoner101: I'm sure Putin will be as effective in blocking the forthcoming NATO resolution as well

NATO has no obligations over Ukraine.

After Bushy Bush jr pissed away every bit of good will and political capital on a 14 year Afghanistan boondoggle NATO isn't about to start doing jack shiat unless Russia actually attacks a treaty state. Which they won't.


Yeah, it is all Bush's fault. His stealth 6 years in office must be to blame.

He continues to direct drone attacks that kill both citizens and civilians. He continues to spy on our allies and tap their phones from his ranch in Texas. He continues to lead bombing assaults in Libya and provides arms to Syrian rebels on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Apparently while Obama plays with his time machine and weather machine, Bush is still driving foreign policy 6 years out of office.
 
2014-03-16 01:19:24 PM  

MrGMan: Doktor_Zhivago: Summoner101: I'm sure Putin will be as effective in blocking the forthcoming NATO resolution as well

NATO has no obligations over Ukraine.

After Bushy Bush jr pissed away every bit of good will and political capital on a 14 year Afghanistan boondoggle NATO isn't about to start doing jack shiat unless Russia actually attacks a treaty state. Which they won't.

Yeah, it is all Bush's fault. His stealth 6 years in office must be to blame.

He continues to direct drone attacks that kill both citizens and civilians. He continues to spy on our allies and tap their phones from his ranch in Texas. He continues to lead bombing assaults in Libya and provides arms to Syrian rebels on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Apparently while Obama plays with his time machine and weather machine, Bush is still driving foreign policy 6 years out of office.


You seem upset.
 
2014-03-16 01:20:34 PM  
Doktor_Zhivago: Its almost like international relations are more complex and nuanced than "don't do that or war"

QFT
 
2014-03-16 01:32:19 PM  
I think it's pretty obvious. With the way Russia has deployed it's forces, they are going to probe the eastern portions of Ukraine (this week) and be greeted with open arms in some towns in the initial stages.

I think all that really remains to find out is how hard the Ukrainian forces will try to push back, if they do at all. Going to be an interesting week.

Or, Putin could just let his forces sit there and let the internal forces do all of the work for him. Seems like once Crimea falls to him, other more pro-Russian towns/regions are clamoring for the same kind of "relationship".

Dunno how we play it, sanctions are nice for a bit, but if Russia decides to use their oil weapon to retaliate, the damage to the world economy and markets will be felt instantly with major indicies bleeding red in arterial spray.

Either way, I don't see any kind of major war breaking out. Ukraine could not stand up to a frontal assault, and they would not get any outside help aside from money.
 
2014-03-16 01:34:17 PM  
This vote was an important measure of who will be with us in imposing sanctions and economic retaliation. Even getting China to abstain is a pretty big deal.
 
2014-03-16 01:35:18 PM  
I always like these "The UN has brought about world peace, therefore it is useless" threads.
 
2014-03-16 01:36:22 PM  

xria: I always like these "The UN hasn't brought about world peace, therefore it is useless" threads.


FTFM
 
2014-03-16 01:39:43 PM  
The UN security counsel is just rubbish.  The rules should be changed and spiced up a bit.  If a member of the counsel is deemed the aggressor, then that member must win a round of 7-card Texas hold em to retain its vote.  Okay, maybe a different game, that one has a 2003 stench about it.  Gin rummy. With gin martinis.  If, by chance, the aggressor makes it through the card round, another member of the counsel may challenge the aggressor with best of 7 beer pong.  Obviously, this round favors the Europeans, but, with a little forethought, the US could stack this deck by appointing an appropriate ambassador to the UN, perhaps a recruit from the University of Kentucky.  For any members still standing, sitting, or remaining in the chamber, a final round of marbles would determine the fate of an aggressor nation.  Obviously, it's been pre-determined that the rules of marbles would be moot at this point, after the epic beer pong round, so the game would be played until the last member passes out, or the marbles are lost, whichever comes first.
 
2014-03-16 01:42:37 PM  

hammettman: Gin rummy.


Russia selects their nominee to play for them...

i61.tinypic.com
 
2014-03-16 01:47:31 PM  
The whole point of the vote was to get Russia on record as voting against it.  It diminishes their future ability to claim any moral high ground.
 
2014-03-16 01:54:13 PM  

MrGMan: Apparently while Obama plays with his time machine and weather machine, Bush is still driving foreign policy 6 years out of office.


Who invaded Afghanistan and set up the open ended NATO commitment?

Hey I'm sure all those countries that really had no desire to be involved and got suckered into it in order to keep suckling the US defense budget teat are grateful that we got bin laden 10 years later in a different country.

The US subsidizes the defense of western europe to such an extent they'll go along with pretty much whatever we say but they're not gonna go out and find things to volunteer to do.
 
2014-03-16 01:55:41 PM  

StopLurkListen: Ricardo Klement: StopLurkListen: Ricardo Klement: FlashHarry: is there any mechanism to expel a "permanent" member from the security council?

No. Nor should there be. The entire reason the UN works (to any degree at all) is because the nations powerful enough to upset the apple cart are given ways to keep from resorting to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolut io n_2758
Removed "Republic of China" (Taiwan) from the U.N., replaced with "People's Republic of China", as well as its permanent seat on the Security Council.

Care to guess why the switch was made?

You answered "no" in that there is no mechanism, and that is incorrect. There is a mechanism for removing a permanent member from the Security Council: a permanent member of the Security Council may be removed if the member is ejected from the United Nations.


Yes, well, obviously there's got to be a mechanism when you change governments as to who you recognize. If the US split up, there'd probably be a vote to see which polity got the seat. And ROC and PRC both agree there's only one China and Taiwan is part of it - they just disagree on who the government is.

Simply removing a member is, however, unprecedented and without formal mechanism. To some degree, there's always a mechanism for anything.
 
2014-03-16 02:07:49 PM  

czetie: Mentat: And now Putin is telling Merkel that he's concerned about the violence his people are causing in Eastern Ukraine.  Oh, and "pro-Russian" units are seizing buildings in Donetsk.

At this point I can't figure out whether Putin thinks anybody believes him, just doesn't care, or is simply completely delusional.


Welp, the independence of the Ukraine is pretty much gone. And here I thought Putin would stop this current push with the Crimea - not that he would ignore the rest of the Ukraine, just that they would move much more slowly with the rest of the Ukraine where there isn't nearly the same potential support that he would have in the Crimea. Wow do I seem to be wrong about that.

And not in the good way. Sigh. Why couldn't I have been wrong about European resolve, or American resolve, or heck, Ukrainian resolve? Ah well. Maybe there's still time?
 
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