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(Sun Sentinel)   City announce$ it will retain red light camera$ in order to gather "$ignificant cra$h data," a$$ure re$ident$ it i$n't about ticket revenue; it'$ all about $afety fir$t   (sun-sentinel.com) divider line 54
    More: Florida, Fir, red light cameras, Hallandale Beach, Margate, city  
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3066 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Mar 2014 at 12:07 PM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-16 08:50:16 AM  
Red light cameras are fine, provided they don't fark with parameters of the intersection to increase revenue.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-03-16 09:09:47 AM  
Also from Florida, St. Petersburg was quite open about the revenue motive. They voted to take down cameras as soon as they started losing money. tbo.com

The main way you find out whether they care about safety is to look at the kind of ticket generated. Most U.S. jurisdictions promise camera tickets won't go on your record if you pay the ticket. Run all the red lights you want, ignore the speed limit, but you have to pay for the privilege. Florida tickets are, by law, revenue tickets. After courts ruled that camera tickets have to be real tickets with points, the Missouri House just voted to authorize revenue-only tickets.

If the tickets are real you have to look at how the city thinks about revenue. California tickets are ordinary moving violations. Prosecutors must prove the violation and the driver's identity. The fine is $500, but split so many ways that cities don't get enough to cover costs if the defendant pleads not guilty. Some cities are dropping cameras as money losers. The legislature tried to bail them out by exempting cameras from rules of evidence. Time will tell.
 
2014-03-16 09:57:48 AM  
That pesky little rule about being able to face your accuser in a court of law is making cameras unprofitable in some jurisdictions.

Here's hoping it spreads.
 
2014-03-16 11:29:34 AM  
In 2012, the town had 116 crashes at intersections with cameras, including 77 rear-end collisions. Last year, the town logged 152 crashes at those intersections, with 133 rear-end collisions but fewer T-bone accidents.

Brilliant.
 
2014-03-16 12:13:06 PM  
The cameras are the cause of the rear end collisions.
 
2014-03-16 12:15:10 PM  
Solution: Mandate that all ticket revenue is surrendered to the US Treasury to go towards paying down the national debt, or some collection of charities.

Because it's all about safety, right?
 
2014-03-16 12:21:56 PM  

oryx: The cameras are the cause of the rear end collisions.


This has been suggested. Only the 'appropriate' data is being published.
 
2014-03-16 12:23:53 PM  

BMFPitt: Solution: Mandate that all ticket revenue is surrendered to the US Treasury to go towards paying down the national debt, or some collection of charities.

Because it's all about safety, right?


What are you, some kind of troublemaker?
 
2014-03-16 12:24:56 PM  
Does 'appropriate data'  include how much money that can make?
 
2014-03-16 12:31:48 PM  
Collecting crash data does not require collecting cash.
 
2014-03-16 12:31:56 PM  
Everyone is offended that they claim safety as the reason for red light and speed cameras. Why don't they just explicitly say they are to raise revenue from people who break the traffic laws, kind of like a "speed tax"? Put them all over the place, and stop pretending they're about safety. That just confuses the debate. The debate should instead focus on whether people would rather revenue be generated by the traffic cameras or some other form of tax.
 
2014-03-16 12:35:32 PM  

ammaro: Everyone is offended that they claim safety as the reason for red light and speed cameras. Why don't they just explicitly say they are to raise revenue from people who break the traffic laws, kind of like a "speed tax"? Put them all over the place, and stop pretending they're about safety. That just confuses the debate. The debate should instead focus on whether people would rather revenue be generated by the traffic cameras or some other form of tax.


Indianapolis city and Indiana state cops like ticketing out of state plates on 465 on Colts games and the Indianapolis 500 weekends. You know... for safety.
 
2014-03-16 12:39:28 PM  

EvilEgg: Red light cameras are fine, provided they don't fark with parameters of the intersection to increase revenue.


Even without changing the parameters of the intersection, all the signage indicating red-light cameras causes people to be more likely to slam on their brakes at a yellow light, increasing the accident rate and needlessly causing a danger to the public.
 
2014-03-16 12:41:38 PM  

oryx: The cameras are the cause of the rear end collisions.


Tailgating is the cause of the rear end collisions.

/get off my farking bumper, Speedy Gonzales
 
2014-03-16 12:45:17 PM  

EvilEgg: Red light cameras are fine, provided they don't fark with parameters of the intersection to increase revenue.


I remember reading about a study that concluded that redlight cams actually increase crashes at intersections: not hits in the middle of the box from redlight runners, but rear-ends of people stopping.  They become more averse to entering the intersection out of fear of being redlight-cam'd that they hit the brakes and then get rear-ended.
 
2014-03-16 12:45:20 PM  
But if it saves just one child, isn't it worth it?
 
2014-03-16 12:50:29 PM  
Milwaukie, OR's city council recently voted to continue running their speed traps. And no option for traffic school, unlike just about everywhere else in the state. The Chief of police testified there had been no change in the number or severity of accidents. I'm certain the $2,000,000/year, net, had nothing to do with the vote.
 
2014-03-16 12:52:40 PM  
Ha ha game! You replaced the S with a dollar sign. That's awesome!! How long did it take to gone up either that?
 
2014-03-16 12:53:15 PM  
Personally, I once beat a camera ticket, when I proved that the yellow light had been shortened so that it was impossible to stop at the posted speed limit.
Often, it really is about the money.
 
2014-03-16 01:05:20 PM  

Merry Sunshine: oryx: The cameras are the cause of the rear end collisions.

Tailgating is the cause of the rear end collisions.

/get off my farking bumper, Speedy Gonzales


Slamming your brakes is the primary cause of rear end collisions, get moving Rodriguez.
 
2014-03-16 01:09:02 PM  
All governments exist by dint of Force, Fraud and/or Deceit. Pick your poison, citizen
 
2014-03-16 01:09:46 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: That pesky little rule about being able to face your accuser in a court of law is making cameras unprofitable in some jurisdictions.

Here's hoping it spreads.


The state is your accuser and it'll be there with their evidence if you choose to fight the ticket.

I agree with EvilEgg - so long as the cameras are only recording a vehicle entering an intersection on a red light and the yellow light was displayed long enough for an approaching driver traveling at a reasonable rate of speed to safely avoid entering the intersection on a red light I'm ok with this.

If the case would stand if a human took the photo why should it be a problem if it's an automatic camera?
 
2014-03-16 01:26:10 PM  
Pretty sure the auto industry has it covered with crash data. They don't need you helping out by making more people crash.
 
2014-03-16 01:27:32 PM  

reubendaley: Marcus Aurelius: That pesky little rule about being able to face your accuser in a court of law is making cameras unprofitable in some jurisdictions.

Here's hoping it spreads.

The state is your accuser and it'll be there with their evidence if you choose to fight the ticket.

I agree with EvilEgg - so long as the cameras are only recording a vehicle entering an intersection on a red light and the yellow light was displayed long enough for an approaching driver traveling at a reasonable rate of speed to safely avoid entering the intersection on a red light I'm ok with this.

If the case would stand if a human took the photo why should it be a problem if it's an automatic camera?


The problem is that the cameras are kind of a "black box". It takes a photo, but how do you know if the photo was taken when the light was red? If you get a ticket in the mail 2 weeks later, how the fark are you going to defend yourself when you had no idea you got ticketed and likely don't remember it? When you are stopped by a cop, it was only a minute prior
 
2014-03-16 01:36:28 PM  
I had worked in AV in a past life, working for the City of Chicago as a contractor. Part of the job was running the video wall for presentations etc.
I essentially got to play The Great Oz behind the console.
As such I got to sit in on meetings between city officials and vendors, to include the red light camera vendors. The only lyrics numbers ever mentioned in the meetings were projected revenue. No safety numbers at all.
 
2014-03-16 01:38:10 PM  
I submitted this; never got selected.

Norfolk judge throws out red-light camera tickets after NewsChannel 3 Investigation
 
http://wtkr.com/2014/03/13/newschannel-3-investigation-helps-navy-sa il or-win-red-light-camera-case/

/yes, because or light timing manipulation.
 
2014-03-16 01:38:11 PM  
Not paying attention to what the fark you are doing is a major cause of rear end collisions.
 
2014-03-16 01:40:36 PM  
My objection to red0light cameras is that they heavily punish the one red-light violation not really associated with loss of life or property damage, rolling right turns on red.

So, where's the safety benefit?
 
2014-03-16 02:00:54 PM  
Because a ticket camera cannot dictate common sense. If I have a heavy vehicle , I have much more perpetual motion than a small car, and it makes more sense safely going throw the yellow light as it's turning red than slamming on the brakes and drifting into the intersection. A police officer would understand that and not issue a ticket. A greedy politician would see this act of self preservation as a way to bleed money out of the public.
 
2014-03-16 02:02:54 PM  
Davie?

I guessed Juno Beach or Tequesta.
 
2014-03-16 02:08:31 PM  

Lsherm: In 2012, the town had 116 crashes at intersections with cameras, including 77 rear-end collisions. Last year, the town logged 152 crashes at those intersections, with 133 rear-end collisions but fewer T-bone accidents.

Brilliant.


People speed up to beat the yellow, but the car in front of them DOESN'T!!  Oops!

/Was a joke in an issue of Mad magazine back in the late 70's or so.
 
2014-03-16 02:13:08 PM  

dandude28: If I have a heavy vehicle , I have much more perpetual motion than a small car...


And how do I know that you don't know jack about physics???

Yes, a truck has more momentum and kinetic energy than a small car when both are traveling at the same speed.  However, a competent truck driver knows this and drives accordingly.
 
2014-03-16 02:26:27 PM  

indy_kid: dandude28: If I have a heavy vehicle , I have much more perpetual motion than a small car...

And how do I know that you don't know jack about physics???

Yes, a truck has more momentum and kinetic energy than a small car when both are traveling at the same speed.  However, a competent truck driver knows this and drives accordingly.


You know what I mean buddy, you can drive accordingly or not, however, the light system still is not designed for it .
 
2014-03-16 02:29:19 PM  

wambu: My objection to red0light cameras is that they heavily punish the one red-light violation not really associated with loss of life or property damage, rolling right turns on red.

So, where's the safety benefit?


There isn't one.  But don't tell the trolls in this thread who continually push for them.
 
2014-03-16 02:35:00 PM  
From some of these post it would seem some Fark ProgressivesTM are against government obtaining more revenue.

FIned for running a red light? Just think of it as a tax just like the fine for not having health insurance under Obamacare is now a tax.


4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-03-16 02:49:16 PM  

EvilEgg: Red light cameras are fine

I still can't agree with that. People on Fark tend to use the phrase "don't run red lights, a-hole!" but the fact is that cameras cannot capture circumstances that may be exculpatory. Maybe your brakes failed. Maybe you were being chased. Maybe you were rushing someone to the hospital. Maybe you were in medical distress and could not react.

I once (only once) received a red light ticket because I was distracted by someone almost hitting me, and then was blinded by the sun in my face. Had a police officer witnessed the incident, I don't believe I would have received a ticket. But by the perspective of the camera, I just looked like a selfish a-hole. I was stuck with a $500+ ticket because the a-hole was the guy who didn't yield to me when he should have.
 
2014-03-16 02:52:53 PM  

indy_kid: dandude28: If I have a heavy vehicle...

...However, a competent truck driver knows this and drives accordingly.


Yes, with the flow of traffic. Often I see situations where there is so much variance in the timing of traffic control lights that the same preference of stopping sooner versus driving through an intersection doesn't really translate easily from one situation to the next, depending upon how the surrounding vehicles are behaving in the system.

Obviously, a driver should know that the vehicle that is being driven has to be adapted to, making potentially drastic changes in such factors as following/stopping distance and the tightness of turns that can be safely attempted, among others.

That said, traffic under normal (read real-world, where density and speed of traffic are not constants) conditions, is a fragile system where one minor miscalculation, even a slight over- or under- correction, on the part of anyone involved, can really make it nearly impossible for anyone nearby to safely compensate. That includes both the people driving too slow and bogging down traffic when a safe exit through an intersection (or avoiding high density of traffic so as not to interfere with it) is the best option, as well as the person who is tailgating, even if that person who is in a hurry would get nowhere sooner by virtue of being so impatient, due to all of the other binds in the flow of traffic.

In reality, poor implementation of traffic control devices arguably contributes significantly to the already inherent dangers presented by humans being allowed to drive vehicles near one another. Note though that it's a multiple fault system, not a direct one-to-one cause and effect relationship, where everyone is responsible for helping not get everyone killed. (or worse)

All that said, I've been guilty of both, as well as various other atrocities, behind the wheel. It's a learning process, though the stakes are high. One of the best things we can do is to have good (honest, open, sensible) dialogue with those learning to drive, as well as those who have driven for years but are still not good drivers, before they have made the same mistakes many of us have, not continually preach the sermon on /whatever day is your shabbat, hell Sunday, this is a figure of speech anyway/ and practice all seven deadly sins throughout the week.
 
2014-03-16 02:57:48 PM  
If red light cameras aren't about revenue, then why does every town that uses them have shorter yellow lights.
 
2014-03-16 02:58:56 PM  
My foremost complaint is actually of the lights, not the cameras, where they actually need calibrated and adjusted in order to regulate traffic safely, and in many places they are just as far off as Jack Nicholson in The Shining. It's a system supposedly designed to smoothly regulate the flow of traffic. That's what it should generally do. As for the cameras, providing revenue should be less important if a priority at all, and as ImpendingCynic mentions, the context of the situation is often misrepresented if it is given notice and creedence at all.
 
2014-03-16 03:00:12 PM  

macdaddy357: If red light cameras aren't about revenue, then why does every town that uses them have shorter yellow lights.


Good question.
 
2014-03-16 03:35:16 PM  
I've never had a problem with red light cameras because you should be able to stop before the light turns red. However, reading this thread it seems like red light cameras in the US go off when the light turns red. Is that right? Not for entering the intersection on red?
 
2014-03-16 03:42:25 PM  
Woh, was Ke$ha there too?

img.fark.net
 
2014-03-16 03:54:59 PM  

nikku88: I've never had a problem with red light cameras because you should be able to stop before the light turns red. However, reading this thread it seems like red light cameras in the US go off when the light turns red. Is that right? Not for entering the intersection on red?


It's really that the cameras are indiscriminate about context and that the lights don't behave as expected (short green, very short yellow lights, long or stuck red lights) and catch drivers at a disadvantage.
 
2014-03-16 05:55:07 PM  

machoprogrammer: reubendaley: Marcus Aurelius: That pesky little rule about being able to face your accuser in a court of law is making cameras unprofitable in some jurisdictions.

Here's hoping it spreads.

The state is your accuser and it'll be there with their evidence if you choose to fight the ticket.

I agree with EvilEgg - so long as the cameras are only recording a vehicle entering an intersection on a red light and the yellow light was displayed long enough for an approaching driver traveling at a reasonable rate of speed to safely avoid entering the intersection on a red light I'm ok with this.

If the case would stand if a human took the photo why should it be a problem if it's an automatic camera?

The problem is that the cameras are kind of a "black box". It takes a photo, but how do you know if the photo was taken when the light was red? If you get a ticket in the mail 2 weeks later, how the fark are you going to defend yourself when you had no idea you got ticketed and likely don't remember it? When you are stopped by a cop, it was only a minute prior


You'd understand if you'd ever seen a red light camera ticket. A device detects movement towards an intersection that occurs after the light turns red. Several cameras takes a series - important to know - a series of photos from different angles depicting the vehicle outside of the intersection, at least one view of which has the red light displayed in the photo, The photos are time stamped and taken together they leave no doubt that the offense occurred and in some cases, no doubt who was at the wheel. I really don't know what all the butthurt is about - you ran a red light you got caught. There's a fine designed in part to defray the cost of enforcement and in part to discourage breaking the law. Other than fiddling with the yellow light times RLCs are a legitimate extension of law enforcement (which makes it abhorrent to the basement dwelling lefties here) and they're here to stay.

Honestly if RLC citations were ruled unlawful the logical step would be to put a human at a console with a real-time feed to the troublesome intersections and let them monitor and cull the images needed to charge / obtain a conviction.

I'm not the biggest fan of LE but I'm glad these cameras are in use because people who run red suck and they aren't usually in a position to pick up the pieces of the lives they shatter.
 
2014-03-16 06:30:02 PM  
Moved to Albuquerque in 2007, red light cameras were all over the place. I promptly nagged a couple of cam tickets early on and never bothered to pay 'em. Funny thing, no one else was paying theirs either. The city wasn't seeing the promised profit$ and the cameras got taken down a couple of years ago.

Far as I'm concerned, make the officer write the ticket and give me a day in court.
 
2014-03-16 07:53:37 PM  
Huhuhuhuhuh. Not about revenue. Huhuhuhuhu. All about traffic safety. Hehehehehehehe.
 
2014-03-16 08:00:37 PM  
reubendaley: You'd understand if you'd ever seen a red light camera ticket. A device detects movement towards an intersection that occurs after the light turns red. Several cameras takes a series - important to know - a series of photos from different angles depicting the vehicle outside of the intersection, at least one view of which has the red light displayed in the photo, The photos are time stamped and taken together they leave no doubt that the offense occurred and in some cases, no doubt who was at the wheel. I really don't know what all the butthurt is about - you ran a red light you got caught. There's a fine designed in part to defray the cost of enforcement and in part to discourage breaking the law. Other than fiddling with the yellow light times RLCs are a legitimate extension of law enforcement (which makes it abhorrent to the basement dwelling lefties here) and they're here to stay.

Honestly if RLC citations were ruled unlawful the logical step would be to put a human at a console with a real-time feed to the troublesome intersections and let them monitor and cull the images needed to charge / obtain a conviction.

I'm not the biggest fan of LE but I'm glad these cameras are in use because people who run red suck and they aren't usually in a position to pick up the pieces of the lives they shatter.

Move along, Citizen, don't mind the cameras. If you've done nothing wrong, then you've nothing to fear.

FTFY
 
2014-03-16 08:10:52 PM  

elbows_deep_silent_queef: macdaddy357: If red light cameras aren't about revenue, then why does every town that uses them have shorter yellow lights.

Good question.


Gotcha! How Red-Light Cameras are catching more drivers with shorter yellow lights
 http://wtkr.com/2014/01/30/gotcha-how-red-light-cameras-are-catchin g-m ore-drivers-with-shorter-yellow-lights/


Which led to Norfolk changing their timing again (back to sane) and a Norfolk judge invalidating all red-light camera tickets.
 
2014-03-16 08:42:15 PM  

loaba: reubendaley: You'd understand if you'd ever seen a red light camera ticket. A device detects movement towards an intersection that occurs after the light turns red. Several cameras takes a series - important to know - a series of photos from different angles depicting the vehicle outside of the intersection, at least one view of which has the red light displayed in the photo, The photos are time stamped and taken together they leave no doubt that the offense occurred and in some cases, no doubt who was at the wheel. I really don't know what all the butthurt is about - you ran a red light you got caught. There's a fine designed in part to defray the cost of enforcement and in part to discourage breaking the law. Other than fiddling with the yellow light times RLCs are a legitimate extension of law enforcement (which makes it abhorrent to the basement dwelling lefties here) and they're here to stay.

Honestly if RLC citations were ruled unlawful the logical step would be to put a human at a console with a real-time feed to the troublesome intersections and let them monitor and cull the images needed to charge / obtain a conviction.

I'm not the biggest fan of LE but I'm glad these cameras are in use because people who run red suck and they aren't usually in a position to pick up the pieces of the lives they shatter.
Move along, Citizen, don't mind the cameras. If you've done nothing wrong, then you've nothing to fear.

FTFY


Perhaps you think you fixed something.
As far as I'm concerned it wasn't broken.
Really, I'd prefer if you not "fix" my posts for me.
A lot of people here do seem to do that.
Not that that's any excuse.
One might expect that type of behavior here.
I have one request, though.
Don't do it again.
 
2014-03-16 09:13:49 PM  
I'm fine with the cameras, if we follow the logical result. Since the police are no longer necessary since the cameras are doing their job, fire some of the lazy ass cops. Then, you can reduce my taxes since the lazy ass cops no longer deserve a salary.
 
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