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(Guardian)   NASA study: We're screwed   (theguardian.com ) divider line
    More: Scary, NASA, resource extraction, technological change  
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24911 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Mar 2014 at 10:42 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



256 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2014-03-16 08:38:53 AM  
Too bad the "wealthy elite"/Republican response will be TL;DR, or write this off as Obammaunist commissioned class warfare tripe.

The word Romanovs comes to mind.
 
2014-03-16 09:46:23 AM  
Wait 'til they find out what happens when the Earth is no longer in the habitable zone in a billion years.
 
2014-03-16 10:43:42 AM  
Go home NASA, you're drunk
 
2014-03-16 10:45:23 AM  
Great.. another study using faulty premise and data.. just like.. ummm.. what was that thing?

/It'll come to me
 
2014-03-16 10:47:42 AM  
Needs Obvious tag.
 
2014-03-16 10:48:06 AM  
What's the mother of invention?  I can't remember..
 
2014-03-16 10:48:38 AM  
deadwildroses.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-03-16 10:49:31 AM  
community.us.playstation.com
 
2014-03-16 10:50:14 AM  
FTA:  "... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels...the Elites eventually consume too much, resulting in a famine among Commoners that eventually causes the collapse of society  "

Dang, there's gonna be a lot of WHARGARBL on Fox when they hear about this study.
 
2014-03-16 10:52:03 AM  
Come on Earth, just hold your shiat together for another 40 years!
 
2014-03-16 10:53:56 AM  

Gunther: Elites eventually consume too much


see...that right there is one of the arguments i have against this study. Wealthy do not consume too much. They consume too little as a percentage of income and wealth.
 
2014-03-16 10:54:24 AM  
FTFA:  "A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution."

Time to defund NASA.  Seems they've completely forgotten what their mission is supposed to be.
 
2014-03-16 10:54:48 AM  
NASA used to be about space.  If it's going to turn in to (or has already become) yet another PC entity doing uninteresting stuff that others could do, then how about closing it down.  I'll miss it, but seeing it wither away into a global political mission is nauseating.
 
2014-03-16 10:55:00 AM  
Why is NASA studying economics and social psychology?

And spell civilization like a real 'murican or your argument is invalid.
 
2014-03-16 10:55:53 AM  
yeah, NASA says a lot of things
 
2014-03-16 10:56:02 AM  

Loucifer: Come on Earth, just hold your shiat together for another 40 years!


buddy...in 40 years the shiat will be hitting the fan so hard everybody will be covered.
/actually expecting it to start in 35yrs
 
2014-03-16 10:56:41 AM  

CruJones: Why is NASA studying economics and social psychology?


hahahaha...really?
 
2014-03-16 10:57:15 AM  
As I've said repeatedly, whether you believe or not in climate change, or wealth inequity, or social justice, just doesn't matter - the window of opportunity in which we could've slowed or stopped the upcoming events passed some time ago. It's simply too late. The only question is "how long will it take?" I'm looking at about 30-50 years, for my WAG, with the current decline speeding up in about 10 years or so. Rising water levels, decreasing resources, increasing wealth inequity, means that, sooner or later, the have nots are going to die to keep the haves in kibble and curtains. 

Nightjars: What's the mother of invention?  I can't remember..


Must've missed the part in the article where NASA reminds folks that "technological change can raise the efficiency of resource use, but it also tends to raise both per capita resource consumption and the scale of resource extraction, so that, absent policy effects, the increases in consumption often compensate for the increased efficiency of resource use."

In other words, this isn't a problem out of which you can simply invent your way. Oddly enough, less, not more, is the solution here, but no one wants to hear that, not in a culture that values materialism and conspicuous consumption as its cornerstone.
 
2014-03-16 10:58:30 AM  
Go home, Nasa, you're drunk...
 
2014-03-16 10:59:00 AM  
They named the model...  HANDY?  It's HANDY that's telling us this?
 
2014-03-16 10:59:12 AM  

Click Click D'oh: FTFA:  "A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution."

Time to defund NASA.  Seems they've completely forgotten what their mission is supposed to be.


*sticks fingers in years, shouts "LALALALALALALA" to drown out scary things...*
 
2014-03-16 10:59:36 AM  
Guess now we'll see republicans trying to reverse Obamacare AND Nasa.

The cynical part of me thinks the wealthy elite have totally figured this out already and are skimming the wealth and resources in order to hunker down their families for the next few generations of resource wars.

I'm regretting having kids now, for their sake, not mine.
 
2014-03-16 11:01:34 AM  
http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2012/05/30/whats-really-behind - europes-decline-its-the-birth-rates-stupid/

This is the main problem.
/remember capitalism only works with continuous growth.
 
2014-03-16 11:01:38 AM  
But don't worry - NASA have also recorded a series of cryptic messages that we can open at various stages of the collapse to help guide us through various crises and thus shorten the period of darkness and chaos.
 
2014-03-16 11:01:59 AM  
The Sun will come up tomorrow,
 
2014-03-16 11:02:25 AM  

CruJones: Why is NASA studying economics and social psychology?


Why did NASA invent the non-stick frying pan? And Tang and velcro? And adult diapers that keep fresh for a week?
 
2014-03-16 11:03:40 AM  

FormlessOne: *sticks fingers in years, shouts "LALALALALALALA" to drown out scary things...*


Where did I say such things shouldn't be studied?  I didn't, so go light your strawman on fire.

NASAs mandate is to shoot people and things into space in the name of science and conduct kick arse atmospheric research, not sociology and economics. We've got other people for that.  If NASA doesn't want to do it's job, it's time to defund them.
 
2014-03-16 11:04:27 AM  
We're screwed...who didn't already know this???
 
2014-03-16 11:06:26 AM  

Nightjars: What's the mother of invention?  I can't remember..


You can't drive a truck off a cliff and expect to invent a hang glider on the way down.
 
2014-03-16 11:06:46 AM  

Click Click D'oh: FormlessOne: *sticks fingers in years, shouts "LALALALALALALA" to drown out scary things...*

Where did I say such things shouldn't be studied?  I didn't, so go light your strawman on fire.

NASAs mandate is to shoot people and things into space in the name of science and conduct kick arse atmospheric research, not sociology and economics. We've got other people for that.  If NASA doesn't want to do it's job, it's time to defund them.


ever consider that living and working in space might...just might...have economic and sociology implications and in order to properly model them ya kindda need a reference model?
 
2014-03-16 11:07:11 AM  
I wonder how many great civilizations were warned decades in advance of their impending doom, and the wealthy elites laughed it off and kept on drinking and partying and irrevocably farking things up.

All of them, I suspect.
 
2014-03-16 11:07:43 AM  
Exxon's scientists will soon de-bunk this.
 
2014-03-16 11:08:07 AM  

Gunther: FTA:  "... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels...the Elites eventually consume too much, resulting in a famine among Commoners that eventually causes the collapse of society  "

Dang, there's gonna be a lot of WHARGARBL on Fox when they hear about this study.



I think Republicans who want to cut food stamps, etc... are break dancing on a razor's edge. "Entitlements" are the only thing holding this country together, and the minute cuts to entitlements hit the breaking point, a lot of innocent people are going to flip their shiat and start rioting with a lot of collateral damage.

The only solution is to make the people that benefit from these entitlements (Wal-Mart, etc), to start paying in their fair share.  Wal-Mart doesn't wanna pay a living wage? They have to pay the government back for every employee that they have who is eligible for food stamps, Medicaid, etc.  Wal-Mart is not going anywhere. They aren't gonna walk away from BILLIONS in profits because they have to start paying the true cost of operating a business. So make them pay the true cost of operating their business. If it is cheaper for them to just give their workers a raise or give them health care, they will do it; it might be cheaper for them to just pay the government to do it. Give them a choice, but make them pay for it either way.

I am SICK of subsidizing big corporations, and I am SICK of having my tax dollars paying to keep Wal-Mart (and all of those other horrible places) open. Those are the real welfare queens sucking on the government teet.

Occupy Arkansas.
 
2014-03-16 11:08:15 AM  

Pharmdawg: and the wealthy elites laughed it off and kept on drinking and partying and irrevocably farking things up.


none...they prepared for it. It was the general masses that didn't
 
2014-03-16 11:09:44 AM  
And then NASA said in a loud voice, "Get off my lawn".
 
2014-03-16 11:10:46 AM  

zeroman987: I am SICK of subsidizing big corporations, and I am SICK of having my tax dollars paying to keep Wal-Mart (and all of those other horrible places) open. Those are the real welfare queens sucking on the government teet.


while i agree with you, even implementing these type of changes won't stop (nor even slow down) the coming crash of the world.
 
2014-03-16 11:11:49 AM  
NASA funded? Um, no. Some idiots doing a study based on a NASA model.
Society didn't collapse after the fall of Rome; it just changed. And it will again.

/but if everyone gets a handy, I'm ok with it.
 
2014-03-16 11:11:51 AM  

Gunther: FTA:  "... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels...the Elites eventually consume too much, resulting in a famine among Commoners that eventually causes the collapse of society  "

Dang, there's gonna be a lot of WHARGARBL on Fox when they hear about this study.


Probably not. They will just ignore it.

Scholars have known the pattern of typical collapse described in the NASA study for years. "The end of nations or empires need not be due to dramatic events, to invading hordes or conquering armies." Example is the Hittites. A search for serious strains in Hittite society is easy to find in their written history. Disunity, excessive control of wealth by the top stratum of Hittite society, political disintegration and famine suffered by common workers. (It's well known how to match archeological findings with famine.) The battle for control of copper mines with Assyria just finished off a weakened nation. (Collapse of the Bronze Age, Robbins)

As Jared Diamond puts it, during collapses the elites starve last.
 
2014-03-16 11:12:04 AM  

mr lawson: ever consider that living and working in space might...just might...have economic and sociology implications and in order to properly model them ya kindda need a reference model?


Stretch Armstrong is proud of you.
 
2014-03-16 11:12:09 AM  
All the fellows in this thread saying that NASA should be defunded because it's lost the plot might want to consider the way that this NASA study is a meta example of the HANDY model described in the article.

So there's justification either way for disbanding NASA for losing its original purpose.
 
2014-03-16 11:12:50 AM  

mr lawson: Loucifer: Come on Earth, just hold your shiat together for another 40 years!

buddy...in 40 years the shiat will be hitting the fan so hard everybody will be covered.
/actually expecting it to start in 35yrs


And 35+ years ago, people were saying the same thing - except it was during the Cold War era which was also supersrsbsns that people thought couldn't be avoided. For decades now, we've supposedly been on the brink of some catastrophe or another caused by  something.

World's still turning and civilization's still intact.

Doomsaying has never done anything except profit the doomsayers - either tangibly with money or otherwise with attention to projects  they want done. In some cases, this can be a good thing (see: emphasis and money put into renewable and cleaner energy sources,) but in others it can be the foundation of a scam (see: 'carbon credits.')

In regards to global climate change, one thing that is going to determine a lot of the future is how currently industrializing countries regulate themselves. If they have the same sort of regulation as the Industrial Revolution had (i.e. none,) we might be in for a rough time. It's really not a matter of 'are things changing?' It's more a matter of 'where is the breaking point?' The reality seems to be that the people studying it don't really know. They can make some good, educated guesses as well as predict what will happen as a result of hitting that breaking point, but right now, all they can say is 'the breaking point exists and hitting it will be bad.' That is pretty much the summary of TFA. How the up-and-coming countries handle themselves and what they pump into the environment will definitely determine whether we see that point sooner or later.
 
2014-03-16 11:14:41 AM  
It is impossible to predict economic collapses. If it were possible, NASA would be able to invest their money accordingly and wouldn't need to worry about getting their budget increased.

And why is NASA studying that, anyway?
 
2014-03-16 11:15:43 AM  

patagoniantoothfish: But don't worry - NASA have also recorded a series of cryptic messages that we can open at various stages of the collapse to help guide us through various crises and thus shorten the period of darkness and chaos.


Ya, but it all breaks down when the unpredictable psychic shows up.
 
2014-03-16 11:16:18 AM  

Click Click D'oh: FormlessOne: *sticks fingers in years, shouts "LALALALALALALA" to drown out scary things...*

Where did I say such things shouldn't be studied?  I didn't, so go light your strawman on fire.

NASAs mandate is to shoot people and things into space in the name of science and conduct kick arse atmospheric research, not sociology and economics. We've got other people for that.  If NASA doesn't want to do it's job, it's time to defund them.


NASA is supposed to estimate their own socio-economic impacts; this study probably came out of something related to that. Although somehow I doubt the original intent was to claim that civilization will inevitably collapse. That seems like the scientists decided to go off on a tangent.
 
2014-03-16 11:16:29 AM  
I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.
 
2014-03-16 11:16:53 AM  
This article is too long to read.  Can someone just read it and let me know if I need to buy lots of homebrewing supplies to help me survive the "Collapse?"
 
2014-03-16 11:17:28 AM  
Whelp, time to get the bug out gear ready and a cabin in the Appalachians.

I got experience raising chickens and horses, all I need is someone with more agrarian skills. Any volunteers?
 
2014-03-16 11:18:44 AM  

lorosammy: This article is too long to read.  Can someone just read it and let me know if I need to buy lots of homebrewing supplies to help me survive the "Collapse?"


If these figures are correct, you should be able to barter the resulting hooch for women.
 
2014-03-16 11:21:17 AM  

Gone In 26 Minutes: And 35+ years ago, people were saying the same thing - except it was during the Cold War era which was also supersrsbsns that people thought couldn't be avoided. For decades now, we've supposedly been on the brink of some catastrophe or another caused by  something.


oh i get that. Trust me. I get it. Even as I type this and everyday I wake up, I critically wonder to myself, "'Am I right? Did I miss something in the data? The world has been spinning for thousands of years and just by miracle it is going to fall apart when I am alive? Occam's razor."
And yet it seems to be the case.
 
2014-03-16 11:21:24 AM  
Or maybe their calculations are wrong because they used metric dollars.
 
2014-03-16 11:21:35 AM  

Pharmdawg: I wonder how many great civilizations were warned decades in advance of their impending doom, and the wealthy elites laughed it off and kept on drinking and partying and irrevocably farking things up.

All of them, I suspect.


Everything works until it doesn't. Doomsday predictors are often kooks

/the end is nigh
 
2014-03-16 11:22:15 AM  
More libtard propaganda.  The truth is we can grow as much as we want, consume as much as we want, pollute as much as we want, and there are no consequences. Because... job creators... Jesus... America!

/Conservative logic
 
2014-03-16 11:22:45 AM  
Although the study is largely theoretical

No reference to Bashir's analysis that the Federation can't win the war with the Dominion?  Fark, I am disappoint.
 
2014-03-16 11:22:50 AM  

mr lawson: see...that right there is one of the arguments i have against this study. Wealthy do not consume too much. They consume too little as a percentage of income and wealth.


Way to not comprehend the article at all.  It clearly says that they consume/hoard too much relative to the people doing the actual production.  Not that they simply use too much.
 
2014-03-16 11:24:12 AM  

GungFu: CruJones: Why is NASA studying economics and social psychology?

Why did NASA invent the non-stick frying pan? And Tang and velcro? And adult diapers that keep fresh for a week?


Not sure if serious but NASA did not invent teflon or velcro. I don't know about the adult diapers

And anyway, it's not like the Earth was going to last forever anyway. It is a finite resource
 
2014-03-16 11:24:27 AM  

TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.


Big Macs are part of the problem. "60% of the world's agricultural land is used for beef production, yet beef accounts for less than 2% of the calories that are consumed throughout the world." FAO UN
 
2014-03-16 11:25:17 AM  
If we could only cook up a nice pandemic.  Take out about 75% of the population on the planet.  Things wouldn't be so bad then.

Somebody get George Orr on the phone and let him take a nap.  Whisper sweet nothings in his ear....

i1.ytimg.com

/Lathe Of Heaven
 
2014-03-16 11:25:22 AM  

Alonjar: Way to not comprehend the article at all.  It clearly says that they consume/hoard too much relative to the people doing the actual production


you assume I read the article. Sorry If i gave that impression. I just scanned the comments here and made a quick judgement call on it from these comments.
 
2014-03-16 11:25:28 AM  
 
2014-03-16 11:29:23 AM  

mr lawson: you assume I read the article. Sorry If i gave that impression. I just scanned the comments here and made a quick judgement call on it from these comments.


Ah.. well to TL;DR for you... it says that when the Elites hoard all of the produced resources and only give the producers enough to barely subsist on, the producers stop producing.. because "fark it."
 
2014-03-16 11:29:43 AM  
NASA: More space ships, less economic guesses. FOCUS.
 
2014-03-16 11:29:51 AM  
These types of studies are simultaneous important and hard to take seriously.

People have been screaming about the impending collapse of civilization forever, and western model civilization since at least Mathus. Yes, current resource exploitation and wealth distribution has some serious problems, but its the most efficient model we have come up with. Hell, Globalization is actually retarding any collapse by wounding the top end economies to bleed manufacturing of all things into poorer, marginal economies and raising their standards of living. As a long term "civilization" protection strategy it was an amazing feat of social engineering to sell it to those who would be hurt by it in the short term.

This isn't to say that we don't have some *serious* points of weakness. "Just in Time" manufacturing is really "Just wanting for a large enough disaster to take us out". Our capacity to rebuild critical infrastructure in the event of a wide spread global scale disaster is fairly non-existent. Companies and nations just don't keep large stockpiles of parts and materials on hand anymore. Wealth stratification is also kicking us in the pants, but that something that can be reversed easily any number of ways if the will / fear can be gathered in the elites to provide more then bread and circuses. In any case, half our problem (in the western world) is that we are approaching a efficiency level that simply cannot employ everyone . Enough goods are produced, food grown, and resourced gotten with a minimal amount of labor that the "Everyone needs and should work to survive" model is starting to crack.
 
2014-03-16 11:32:03 AM  
We are 1000 times inefficient throughout the whole process of modern life, because we value money and control over all else.

we use 1 Billion short tons of coal a year to produce 37% of the electricity in modern US society, when we could use 1 million tons of coal to form 15,000 miles of conduit to house a superconductive loop that would allow us to immediately remove 20% of our electrical needs due to savings in heat.

66,000 7.5 MW/hour turbines could power the US every hour on the hour.
150 square miles of Gallium Arsinide solar cells could power the US for 16 hours a day.
900 square miles of conventional solar cells could power the US for 16 hours a day

E. Coli developed in South Korea in 2010 could directly produce diesel, and in 2013, could directly produce gasoline

In Europe there is a car engine and frame that can go 261 miles per imperial gallon
BMW's I8 high performance sport's car gets 94 miles per standard US gallon and goes from 0-60 mph in 4.4 seconds

We could take a million long distance tractor trailers off the roads a year if we could remove the need to send 12,000 train cars worth of coal to be burned every day, and another 4,000 oil tanker cars off the rails everyday.

We could do a thousand things in 10 years from upgrading buildings and building more efficient infrastructure to food production that would solve all of this and allow us to get a grip, on the 8-9 Billion people we will peak out at at 2065, but we have to stop thinking about political power and money as the things humanity seems to value over all else.

It seems so paradoxical that people are inventing things to solve problems and then no one in power wants to implement them. Why has the US private and public invested 400 Billion dollars over the past 30 years alone, not including Europe and Asia's, 500 Billion combined, and then we just let it sit on the shelf unused and unimplemented. There isn't even a plan to seriously study the possible and achievable solutions today.
 
2014-03-16 11:32:51 AM  

Gone In 26 Minutes: And 35+ years ago, people were saying the same thing - except it was during the Cold War era which was also supersrsbsns that people thought couldn't be avoided. For decades now, we've supposedly been on the brink of some catastrophe or another caused by something.


Um, you realize we wer really, REALLY close to basically nuking most human life off the earth *SEVERAL* times in the cold war, right?

And there were a few instances where it seems like *sheer chance* (Guy that was not supposed to be there that day making the call not to launch, etc) kept the world from being radically altered by nuclear warfare?
 
2014-03-16 11:33:09 AM  
immortalmusic.net
 
2014-03-16 11:33:29 AM  

mark12A: Go home, Nasa, you're drunk...


Lot of derp in this thread.
 
2014-03-16 11:34:09 AM  
Failure due to too few resources, when the asteroids have more resources than we have on Earth? If only there were some organization which could study how to use them.
 
2014-03-16 11:34:43 AM  

patagoniantoothfish: But don't worry - NASA have also recorded a series of cryptic messages that we can open at various stages of the collapse to help guide us through various crises and thus shorten the period of darkness and chaos.


By one life's coincidences I'm actually revisiting my old old classics in audiobook form and this is one I'm going through now. Unfortunately for us, it doesn't appear that we have a long-lived, telepathic robot to secretly guide us through the upcoming collapse and rebirth.
 
2014-03-16 11:35:18 AM  
While I do love my Apocalypse porn, studies like this, and the zombie/asteroid/alien/event zeitgeist in general, just serve to perpetuate the MYTH that actually fixing the problems we have (addressing inequality, food/water security, pollution) would be (or in this case, require) the END OF THE WORLD.

OTOH If society does collapse and it *isn't* a zombie apocalypse, a good reading of the Zombie Survival Guide will still stand you in good stead. It's basically a survivalism + thinly veiled xenophobic guerrilla warfare manual anyway.
 
2014-03-16 11:36:48 AM  

mr lawson: Gone In 26 Minutes: And 35+ years ago, people were saying the same thing - except it was during the Cold War era which was also supersrsbsns that people thought couldn't be avoided. For decades now, we've supposedly been on the brink of some catastrophe or another caused by  something.

oh i get that. Trust me. I get it. Even as I type this and everyday I wake up, I critically wonder to myself, "'Am I right? Did I miss something in the data? The world has been spinning for thousands of years and just by miracle it is going to fall apart when I am alive? Occam's razor."
And yet it seems to be the case.


The world does not equal industrialized civilization. If you think industrial and post industrial life styles are sustainable then your sir, are a grade a moron.
 
2014-03-16 11:37:06 AM  
Moms coming round to put it back the way it outta be.
 
2014-03-16 11:37:47 AM  

Fano: Pharmdawg: I wonder how many great civilizations were warned decades in advance of their impending doom, and the wealthy elites laughed it off and kept on drinking and partying and irrevocably farking things up.

All of them, I suspect.

Everything works until it doesn't. Doomsday predictors are often kooks

/the end is nigh


Hardly a Doomsday prediction. Unless you somehow think that industrial and post industrial societies are the overwhelming norm?
 
2014-03-16 11:39:15 AM  

Felgraf: Gone In 26 Minutes: And 35+ years ago, people were saying the same thing - except it was during the Cold War era which was also supersrsbsns that people thought couldn't be avoided. For decades now, we've supposedly been on the brink of some catastrophe or another caused by something.

Um, you realize we wer really, REALLY close to basically nuking most human life off the earth *SEVERAL* times in the cold war, right?

And there were a few instances where it seems like *sheer chance* (Guy that was not supposed to be there that day making the call not to launch, etc) kept the world from being radically altered by nuclear warfare?


I'm well aware. That's part of my point. Somehow, even when it seemed impossible, something prevented us from killing ourselves with our own stupidity and hubris. I think people need less faith in Jesus and more faith in each other specifically because of those lucky events. Human beings make the best miracles; whose to say our future will be any different?
 
2014-03-16 11:39:27 AM  

Rozotorical: The world does not equal industrialized civilization. If you think industrial and post industrial life styles are sustainable then your sir, are a grade a moron.


please expand on your thesis. examples would be great.
 
2014-03-16 11:40:16 AM  

Gone In 26 Minutes:  ...whose who's to say our future will be any different?


FTFM
 
2014-03-16 11:40:40 AM  

Acravius: We are 1000 times inefficient throughout the whole process of modern life, because we value money and control over all else.

we use 1 Billion short tons of coal a year to produce 37% of the electricity in modern US society, when we could use 1 million tons of coal to form 15,000 miles of conduit to house a superconductive loop that would allow us to immediately remove 20% of our electrical needs due to savings in heat.

66,000 7.5 MW/hour turbines could power the US every hour on the hour.
150 square miles of Gallium Arsinide solar cells could power the US for 16 hours a day.
900 square miles of conventional solar cells could power the US for 16 hours a day

E. Coli developed in South Korea in 2010 could directly produce diesel, and in 2013, could directly produce gasoline

In Europe there is a car engine and frame that can go 261 miles per imperial gallon
BMW's I8 high performance sport's car gets 94 miles per standard US gallon and goes from 0-60 mph in 4.4 seconds

We could take a million long distance tractor trailers off the roads a year if we could remove the need to send 12,000 train cars worth of coal to be burned every day, and another 4,000 oil tanker cars off the rails everyday.

We could do a thousand things in 10 years from upgrading buildings and building more efficient infrastructure to food production that would solve all of this and allow us to get a grip, on the 8-9 Billion people we will peak out at at 2065, but we have to stop thinking about political power and money as the things humanity seems to value over all else.

It seems so paradoxical that people are inventing things to solve problems and then no one in power wants to implement them. Why has the US private and public invested 400 Billion dollars over the past 30 years alone, not including Europe and Asia's, 500 Billion combined, and then we just let it sit on the shelf unused and unimplemented. There isn't even a plan to seriously study the possible and achievable solutions today.


Money talks, and science walks. There's a reason that the United States, the country that brought you the Internet, can't seem to get our speeds above what the average North Korean enjoys - there's no financial incentive to do so, not with the laws in place guaranteeing the business and the lack of competition and the captive market forced to use whatever is put in front of them. There's a reason that state governments, seeing gas tax income drop like a stunned sparrow when hybrids & electrics came out, started taxing the hell out of hybrids & electrics (especially given that the taxes were meant as a direct offset to the federal subsidies provided for those vehicle purchases.) There's a reason that we're still fighting to prevent massive oil & gas pipelines across the country, and massive coal shipyards here in Washington.

Money is all that matters now. Our well-being, our very survival, bizarrely takes a back seat to greed. In the last three decades or so, we've gone insane. My fear is that it's going to take a true catastrophe - something that affects the entire country - before we manage to shake off that insanity.
 
2014-03-16 11:41:05 AM  

SheltemDragon: Mathus


In many ways western society has collapsed several times since Mathus. They doesn't mean societies stays collapsed and doesn't rebuild itself.
 
2014-03-16 11:41:39 AM  
Amazingly a SFW oglaf that sums up the whole situation, including the text over.

http://oglaf.com/illusionist/

text box: "Money's an illusion."

Other content on oglaf is generally not safe for work, but this one page cartoon is free of nudity or sexual innuendo.
 
2014-03-16 11:42:08 AM  
Time to poll the scientific community regarding Human Change.

If 80% or more of the scientific community agrees that the collapse of civilization is inevitable in the next century due to Human Change, as certified by NASA(TM), then you better get you cyanide pills ready. Who wants to be alive to witness such a thing.
 
2014-03-16 11:42:27 AM  
Humans are a two-second scene in the evolutionary slide show.

/NASA isn't busy enough with human space flight anymore, so they sit around producing this alarmist crap?
 
2014-03-16 11:42:54 AM  

mr lawson: Rozotorical: The world does not equal industrialized civilization. If you think industrial and post industrial life styles are sustainable then your sir, are a grade a moron.

please expand on your thesis. examples would be great.


Explain that industrialized society or the post industrialized society we mostly live in the west is not the planet earth?

fark where do I begin.
 
2014-03-16 11:44:37 AM  

Rozotorical: mr lawson: Gone In 26 Minutes: And 35+ years ago, people were saying the same thing - except it was during the Cold War era which was also supersrsbsns that people thought couldn't be avoided. For decades now, we've supposedly been on the brink of some catastrophe or another caused by  something.

oh i get that. Trust me. I get it. Even as I type this and everyday I wake up, I critically wonder to myself, "'Am I right? Did I miss something in the data? The world has been spinning for thousands of years and just by miracle it is going to fall apart when I am alive? Occam's razor."
And yet it seems to be the case.

The world does not equal industrialized civilization. If you think industrial and post industrial life styles are sustainable then your sir, are a grade a moron.


How do you figure? Industrialization is a very new thing in our species' history so it's hard to say either way. If we rely on a finite resource, then no, it isn't sustainable - but that's been the case throughout history for every animal. What industrialization has done is make the process faster and more efficient. The idea is taking what we've learned and applying it to the same sort of rapid renewal and/or rapid reproduction of the things we need. See also: modern agriculture. It's really amazing what kind of shiat you can do with a few hundred years worth of technology that just keeps growing more sophisticated.
 
2014-03-16 11:46:23 AM  
So when can I pencil in cannibalism on the ol' Outlook calendar?
 
2014-03-16 11:46:43 AM  

mr lawson: Rozotorical: The world does not equal industrialized civilization. If you think industrial and post industrial life styles are sustainable then your sir, are a grade a moron.

please expand on your thesis. examples would be great.


Examples of the effect of industrialized society,

http://webecoist.momtastic.com/2010/04/15/ghost-towns-places-abandon ed -due-to-disasters-pics/

This is a silly web list, you get the idea. Areas of former industrialized areas of civilization are already uninhabitable.
 
2014-03-16 11:48:00 AM  
1-media-cdn.foolz.us
 
2014-03-16 11:48:02 AM  

mr lawson: Click Click D'oh: FormlessOne: *sticks fingers in years, shouts "LALALALALALALA" to drown out scary things...*

Where did I say such things shouldn't be studied?  I didn't, so go light your strawman on fire.

NASAs mandate is to shoot people and things into space in the name of science and conduct kick arse atmospheric research, not sociology and economics. We've got other people for that.  If NASA doesn't want to do it's job, it's time to defund them.

ever consider that living and working in space might...just might...have economic and sociology implications and in order to properly model them ya kindda need a reference model?

and what would earthly problems have to do with that? do you even read what you write?
 
2014-03-16 11:48:13 AM  

Rozotorical: Explain that industrialized society or the post industrialized society we mostly live in the west is not the planet earth?

fark where do I begin.


ahhh...WESTERN society. You left out that little bit. In that aspect then, you are correct.
However, keep in mind what changes will happen to those societies that are not ind/post-ind currently(esp Africa) in the next 40 years. What are they shooting for? A western style society, no?
 
2014-03-16 11:48:25 AM  

Gone In 26 Minutes: Rozotorical: mr lawson: Gone In 26 Minutes: And 35+ years ago, people were saying the same thing - except it was during the Cold War era which was also supersrsbsns that people thought couldn't be avoided. For decades now, we've supposedly been on the brink of some catastrophe or another caused by  something.

oh i get that. Trust me. I get it. Even as I type this and everyday I wake up, I critically wonder to myself, "'Am I right? Did I miss something in the data? The world has been spinning for thousands of years and just by miracle it is going to fall apart when I am alive? Occam's razor."
And yet it seems to be the case.

The world does not equal industrialized civilization. If you think industrial and post industrial life styles are sustainable then your sir, are a grade a moron.

How do you figure? Industrialization is a very new thing in our species' history so it's hard to say either way. If we rely on a finite resource, then no, it isn't sustainable - but that's been the case throughout history for every animal. What industrialization has done is make the process faster and more efficient. The idea is taking what we've learned and applying it to the same sort of rapid renewal and/or rapid reproduction of the things we need. See also: modern agriculture. It's really amazing what kind of shiat you can do with a few hundred years worth of technology that just keeps growing more sophisticated.


So, your idea is that we will create a wonder to fix the already existing disasters that are currently largely ignored?
 
2014-03-16 11:49:04 AM  

Delay: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

Big Macs are part of the problem. "60% of the world's agricultural land is used for beef production, yet beef accounts for less than 2% of the calories that are consumed throughout the world." FAO UN


And again, we should have already been extinct twenty years ago if these Doctor Downers were right.
 
2014-03-16 11:49:23 AM  

mr lawson: Gunther: Elites eventually consume too much

see...that right there is one of the arguments i have against this study. Wealthy do not consume too much. They consume too little as a percentage of income and wealth.


I think you're equating the term "Elites" as used in this study with the idea of the "1-percenters" currently being used in the US to describe wealth distribution.

In this study, you, as a middle-class (or higher) American, are an Elite. The guy in Mumbai who sweeps the floor of the factory where they make your shoes - getting the equivalent of $2 a day - is a "Commoner."
 
2014-03-16 11:49:35 AM  
They would have gotten more mileage from the study if the title was...

The Final Countdown...
 
2014-03-16 11:53:09 AM  

stirfrybry: and what would earthly problems have to do with that? do you even read what you write?


well..ok..let's say somebody builds a large spacestation. self-sustaining but with finite resources.
How will it govern itself? What will be the method of allocation of scarce resource between the people be?
 
2014-03-16 11:53:17 AM  

mr lawson: Rozotorical: Explain that industrialized society or the post industrialized society we mostly live in the west is not the planet earth?

fark where do I begin.

ahhh...WESTERN society. You left out that little bit. In that aspect then, you are correct.
However, keep in mind what changes will happen to those societies that are not ind/post-ind currently(esp Africa) in the next 40 years. What are they shooting for? A western style society, no?


Currently industrializing societies rely 100% on post industrial society. If you some how think that saying Africa, the continent that has huge range of technology from post industrial to tribal, is not heavenly influenced by post industrial societies, western and Asian then you just being silly.

  If you think acts of resource waste and incredibly dangerous pollutions are not rampant in any industrial society then you are being even sillier.
 
2014-03-16 11:53:31 AM  

Felgraf: Gone In 26 Minutes: And 35+ years ago, people were saying the same thing - except it was during the Cold War era which was also supersrsbsns that people thought couldn't be avoided. For decades now, we've supposedly been on the brink of some catastrophe or another caused by something.

Um, you realize we wer really, REALLY close to basically nuking most human life off the earth *SEVERAL* times in the cold war, right?

And there were a few instances where it seems like *sheer chance* (Guy that was not supposed to be there that day making the call not to launch, etc) kept the world from being radically altered by nuclear warfare?


So you agree with him. It didn't happen.
 
2014-03-16 11:53:51 AM  

patagoniantoothfish: But don't worry - NASA have also recorded a series of cryptic messages that we can open at various stages of the collapse to help guide us through various crises and thus shorten the period of darkness and chaos.


You're saying the Foundation of our Empire isn't going to necessarily crumble?
 
2014-03-16 11:54:03 AM  

TV's Vinnie: Delay: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

Big Macs are part of the problem. "60% of the world's agricultural land is used for beef production, yet beef accounts for less than 2% of the calories that are consumed throughout the world." FAO UN

And again, we should have already been extinct twenty years ago if these Doctor Downers were right.


Society collapse doesn't equal extinction.
 
2014-03-16 11:54:23 AM  

Rozotorical: Gone In 26 Minutes: Rozotorical: mr lawson: Gone In 26 Minutes: And 35+ years ago, people were saying the same thing - except it was during the Cold War era which was also supersrsbsns that people thought couldn't be avoided. For decades now, we've supposedly been on the brink of some catastrophe or another caused by  something.

oh i get that. Trust me. I get it. Even as I type this and everyday I wake up, I critically wonder to myself, "'Am I right? Did I miss something in the data? The world has been spinning for thousands of years and just by miracle it is going to fall apart when I am alive? Occam's razor."
And yet it seems to be the case.

The world does not equal industrialized civilization. If you think industrial and post industrial life styles are sustainable then your sir, are a grade a moron.

How do you figure? Industrialization is a very new thing in our species' history so it's hard to say either way. If we rely on a finite resource, then no, it isn't sustainable - but that's been the case throughout history for every animal. What industrialization has done is make the process faster and more efficient. The idea is taking what we've learned and applying it to the same sort of rapid renewal and/or rapid reproduction of the things we need. See also: modern agriculture. It's really amazing what kind of shiat you can do with a few hundred years worth of technology that just keeps growing more sophisticated.

So, your idea is that we will create a wonder to fix the already existing disasters that are currently largely ignored?


Why not? We've been creating wonders for a while now. You just take them for granted while simultaneously trying to play the role of a Luddite... on the internet. Also, your list has only three examples of environmental hazards created by humans in the western world. The rest are Soviet-era projects that had no oversight and no regulation, the result of war or were caused by natural disasters without human input. I already established industrialization without regulation is hazardous - Soviet-era Russia being a prime example of that. Perhaps India and China in the current age reflect this as well.
 
2014-03-16 11:55:46 AM  
Just an interesting point of fact.

If you release a study that says, don't worry guys it's cool, you don't get paid to do follow up studies on ways to fix anything.
 
2014-03-16 11:56:55 AM  
If you want to understand who the Elite (over-consumers) are, go look in your garbage cans and fridge for any food that's spoiled, uneaten, and the amount of plastic and other materials that are going to a landfill. Also check around your house for redundant "luxury" items, like "old" cell phones, multiple TVs, George Foreman grills, etc.

Consider that if you randomly picked a human being on Earth, the would be barely getting enough calories in a day, and maybe, just maybe have flip-phone.
 
2014-03-16 11:57:11 AM  

mr lawson: Rozotorical: Explain that industrialized society or the post industrialized society we mostly live in the west is not the planet earth?

fark where do I begin.

ahhh...WESTERN society. You left out that little bit. In that aspect then, you are correct.
However, keep in mind what changes will happen to those societies that are not ind/post-ind currently(esp Africa) in the next 40 years. What are they shooting for? A western style society, no?


Also you seem to have leached unto the word western society.  You ignored the larger group post industrial societies. Western society are not the only post industrial societies ffs.
 
2014-03-16 11:57:24 AM  

RandyRick: More libtard propaganda.  The truth is we can grow as much as we want, consume as much as we want, pollute as much as we want, and there are no consequences. Because... job creators... Jesus... America!

/Conservative logic


More Libtard smearing of conservative logic. Youd be surprised how many conservatives are conservationists and support alternative energy. The issue is how you get there and what to do about the rest of the world.
 
2014-03-16 11:58:08 AM  

jaybeezey: Just an interesting point of fact.

If you release a study that says, don't worry guys it's cool, you don't get paid to do follow up studies on ways to fix anything.


...because, clearly, the motive here is for these folks to obtain more funding. Sheesh.
 
2014-03-16 11:58:21 AM  

jaybeezey: Just an interesting point of fact.

If you release a study that says, don't worry guys it's cool, you don't get paid to do follow up studies on ways to fix anything.


Yes, that's very interesting. It's a great argument for rolling your eyes at these kinds of studies and getting back to checking the sports scores.
 
2014-03-16 11:58:57 AM  

Rozotorical: Currently industrializing societies rely 100% on post industrial society. If you some how think that saying Africa, the continent that has huge range of technology from post industrial to tribal, is not heavenly influenced by post industrial societies, western and Asian then you just being silly.

  If you think acts of resource waste and incredibly dangerous pollutions are not rampant in any industrial society then you are being even sillier.


I have a feeling we are actually on the same side here. I might be wrong as I have not slept for over 36 hours, but if you think that the way we are living is a bad thing for earth and for any hopes of any where close to a "normal" life style, then we agree.
 
2014-03-16 12:01:08 PM  

jaybeezey: Just an interesting point of fact.

If you release a study that says, don't worry guys it's cool, you don't get paid to do follow up studies on ways to fix anything.


Yes and if the conclusion is more shocking, it draws more attention.

The biggest problems are in India and China. Half the world's population is in those two places, and they are adopting our consumer culture, and they resent any attempts to impose our values. When you figure out that problem, there may be a chance to fix the bigger problem.
 
2014-03-16 12:02:53 PM  

Gone In 26 Minutes: Rozotorical: Gone In 26 Minutes: Rozotorical: mr lawson: Gone In 26 Minutes: And 35+ years ago, people were saying the same thing - except it was during the Cold War era which was also supersrsbsns that people thought couldn't be avoided. For decades now, we've supposedly been on the brink of some catastrophe or another caused by  something.

oh i get that. Trust me. I get it. Even as I type this and everyday I wake up, I critically wonder to myself, "'Am I right? Did I miss something in the data? The world has been spinning for thousands of years and just by miracle it is going to fall apart when I am alive? Occam's razor."
And yet it seems to be the case.

The world does not equal industrialized civilization. If you think industrial and post industrial life styles are sustainable then your sir, are a grade a moron.

How do you figure? Industrialization is a very new thing in our species' history so it's hard to say either way. If we rely on a finite resource, then no, it isn't sustainable - but that's been the case throughout history for every animal. What industrialization has done is make the process faster and more efficient. The idea is taking what we've learned and applying it to the same sort of rapid renewal and/or rapid reproduction of the things we need. See also: modern agriculture. It's really amazing what kind of shiat you can do with a few hundred years worth of technology that just keeps growing more sophisticated.

So, your idea is that we will create a wonder to fix the already existing disasters that are currently largely ignored?

Why not? We've been creating wonders for a while now. You just take them for granted while simultaneously trying to play the role of a Luddite... on the internet. Also, your list has only three examples of environmental hazards created by humans in the western world. The rest are Soviet-era projects that had no oversight and no regulation, the result of war or were caused by natural disasters without human input. I alre ...


Because they simply are not wonders. They are farking tools created in the natural world off of available finite resources. THERE IS NO MAGIC! The problems that currently exist are not just the rate we currently use available resources to order our civilization and create our different societies. It is the growing demand and frequency of demand for more diverse harder to find elements with a rapidly exploding uncontrolled population. Every creature that has ever walked swam, crawled, floated, or inches across this planet have faced the same constrains. We are amazing tool builders, but we still face the same constraints.

Waste is no farking secret we are literally buried in it.

The human race does not depend on post industrial society or industrialized society to survive.
 
2014-03-16 12:06:25 PM  

mr lawson: Rozotorical: Currently industrializing societies rely 100% on post industrial society. If you some how think that saying Africa, the continent that has huge range of technology from post industrial to tribal, is not heavenly influenced by post industrial societies, western and Asian then you just being silly.

  If you think acts of resource waste and incredibly dangerous pollutions are not rampant in any industrial society then you are being even sillier.

I have a feeling we are actually on the same side here. I might be wrong as I have not slept for over 36 hours, but if you think that the way we are living is a bad thing for earth and for any hopes of any where close to a "normal" life style, then we agree.


My entire point is that collapse is not the end of humanity. It is not even the end of industry. Collapse is inevitable and we are a hell of a lot closer then we like to pretend.  It is a real threat and currently breathing down our collective necks. A magic invention will not save the world. The issue is how we currently order our race and resource allotment depends on conflict and control.
 
2014-03-16 12:07:06 PM  

hardinparamedic: Too bad the "wealthy elite"/Republican response will be TL;DR, or write this off as Obammaunist commissioned class warfare tripe.

The word Romanovs comes to mind.


Too bad the Democrat response will be to create a new tax and waste the money in their slush fund.
 
2014-03-16 12:09:09 PM  
Question the source...isn't that what we are told by Fark when a study reports findings that are not aligned with the prediposed and immutable opinions of Farkites?

SESYNC has an agenda all its own.  Admittedly one that a lot of people are pleased to hang their hat on, but an agenda nonetheless.

Explain how a "green-funded" study outlining a scenario for gloom and doom, is different than an "oil-funded" study explaining how anthropomorphic "climate change" (or the current catch-phrase consistent with weather events) is bunk?
 
2014-03-16 12:10:04 PM  

Gunther: FTA:  "... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels...the Elites eventually consume too much, resulting in a famine among Commoners that eventually causes the collapse of society  "

Dang, there's gonna be a lot of WHARGARBL on Fox when they hear about this study.


'Elites' like Al Gore and George Soros or the other kind?
 
2014-03-16 12:12:41 PM  

Rozotorical: The issue is how we currently order our race and resource allotment depends on conflict and control.


See! We do agree!
lol...been working on this problem for a few years now.
Yes I think I have an answer, but not ready to publish it just yet.
/I think the problem we had in communication was all on my end.
//i need sleep
///also, since I have been knee deep with this type of data for years now, certain terms have very specific meaning to me.
////Economist
 
2014-03-16 12:13:44 PM  

FormlessOne: In other words, this isn't a problem out of which you can simply invent your way. Oddly enough, less, not more, is the solution here, but no one wants to hear that, not in a culture that values materialism and conspicuous consumption as its cornerstone.


That's because invention has not been motivated by the need to reduce consumption.  If reducing consumption is the primary motivation, you would see different products being developed.

While I agree with your main point, I do not see it as a black-and-white situation.  In my opinion, the solution will pull from various sources - both technological, and a re-definition of what people consider a successful life.  Clearly, obsessing over "things" that mostly serve as proof of one's ability to acquire physical wealth and resources is unsustainable.
 
2014-03-16 12:14:28 PM  

MrGMan: Question the source...isn't that what we are told by Fark when a study reports findings that are not aligned with the prediposed and immutable opinions of Farkites?

SESYNC has an agenda all its own.  Admittedly one that a lot of people are pleased to hang their hat on, but an agenda nonetheless.

Explain how a "green-funded" study outlining a scenario for gloom and doom, is different than an "oil-funded" study explaining how anthropomorphic "climate change" (or the current catch-phrase consistent with weather events) is bunk?


follow the money?
/i'm going to bed..agggg
 
2014-03-16 12:15:08 PM  
Cut through the bullshiat and it boils down to this:

We will not avoid the crisis because both sides are pointing the finger at the other while they struggle to get into 'Looting Position' or in charge. And all of us a tricked into being part of the scam. It has always been this way, we don't know any better.
 
2014-03-16 12:18:06 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Delay: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

Big Macs are part of the problem. "60% of the world's agricultural land is used for beef production, yet beef accounts for less than 2% of the calories that are consumed throughout the world." FAO UN

And again, we should have already been extinct twenty years ago if these Doctor Downers were right.


These rats never give up. The atomic doomsday clock used to be five minutes till midnight.... until the cold war ended. Then they moved it back to five minutes when they decided that India/Pakistan/china would somehow exterminate all life on earth. And global warming. Yeah, the atomic scientists have now put that on the doomsday clock.

One day, of course, we'll all be dead. And all the prudent Polly's that were predicting the end of the Hittites, the Victorians, the steampunkers and the knobgobblers will also be dead too. But at least they made their best scrunched up frowny faces and some of them wore literal hair shirts.
 
2014-03-16 12:18:58 PM  
Space X is doing fine, others will come. If NASA is to be another mouthpiece for the government effort to move the wealth into their own pockets, we don't need them.

Move along, nothing to see here. De-fund them.
 
2014-03-16 12:24:34 PM  
Is this where people living comfy lives come in to scoff at any study saying comfy life can't go on forever?
 
2014-03-16 12:28:31 PM  

FormlessOne: jaybeezey: Just an interesting point of fact.

If you release a study that says, don't worry guys it's cool, you don't get paid to do follow up studies on ways to fix anything.

...because, clearly, the motive here is for these folks to obtain more funding. Sheesh.


Pay doesn't just come in dollars. Do-gooders get a sense of self satisfaction from collecting Making A Difference points. MaD dollars are what fixed the hole in the ozone layer and saved the whales
 
2014-03-16 12:32:07 PM  
Solving the WORLD's electrical energy needs:

Solution 1: ~150,000 7.5 MW wind turbines
Solution 2: ~1,000 square miles of Gallium Arsinide 42% efficient solar panels
Solution 3: ~15,000 square miles of 17% conventional solar panels

Solving the WORLD's Chemical energy needs:

5000 Thermal depolymerization plants
5000 biofuel/waste treatment facilities
5000 fuel refineries

Solving the WORLD's global consumption of seafood in all forms

21.7 miles of Deep Blue fishing technology to produce the 90,000,000 tons of fish and
coastal farming of the 30,000,000 tons of sea plant life we take from the ocean every year.

Solving the WORLD's global consumption of land based agriculture.

50,000 10 acre 10 story Vertical Farming facilities
(1 facility in Singapore currently is getting 10 times efficiency per unit of normal agriculture and the cost of the electricity to run it is ~3 Singapore dollars a month or around $2.20 US)

Solving the WORLD's water consumption issues

All of the above could help mitigate around 30% of the water consumption currently taking place.
Add 5000 water recycling facilities to the 5000 facilities for chemical energy production and you can take the efficiency up to 90%

Solving electrical energy storage  issues

Superconductive grid can store energy up to baud transmission capacities
Using electrolysis of water to create stores of hydrogen and oxygen then burn in steam turbines could also be used for storage purposes at 61% efficiency.

Realizing vertical efficiency for city scapes

Reduce the sprawl of the cities into small 1, 2 or 3 square mile 500, 2000, and 9000 respectively vertical 30 to 50 story buildings and you could reduce signal transmission costs, electrical grid costs, Internet accessability costs, water pipe infrastructure, sewage system infrastructure, roads, mass transit infrastructure and individual transportation, vehicle time and travel costs by 70%.

These are all available with today's technology. We don't have to go down the dismal spiral projected before us.
 
2014-03-16 12:33:42 PM  

FunkOut: Is this where people living comfy lives come in to scoff at any study saying comfy life can't go on forever?


In part. Although I am shocked, shocked, that so many have come in to blame NASA for receiving funding for the study.

humphreybogartclauderains.jpg
 
2014-03-16 12:34:42 PM  

Whatchoo Talkinbout: Space X is doing fine, others will come. If NASA is to be another mouthpiece for the government effort to move the wealth into their own pockets, we don't need them.

Move along, nothing to see here. De-fund them.


The Air Force seems to be getting where they want w/o NASA.
In secret. No problems in Houston.
For YOUR OWN GOOD, GDISM!
 
2014-03-16 12:36:49 PM  

capt.hollister: By one life's coincidences I'm actually revisiting my old old classics in audiobook form and this is one I'm going through now. Unfortunately for us, it doesn't appear that we have a long-lived, telepathic robot to secretly guide us through the upcoming collapse and rebirth.


Well, the secret is safe here.
 
2014-03-16 12:37:29 PM  
I'd trust the study more if the could've come up with a better name than HANDY.
 
2014-03-16 12:39:03 PM  

Capo Del Bandito: Whelp, time to get the bug out gear ready and a cabin in the Appalachians.

I got experience raising chickens and horses, all I need is someone with more agrarian skills. Any volunteers?


As long as an acre or two can be reserved for weed, I'm in.
 
2014-03-16 12:39:14 PM  
Well, DUH.

Civilization is built on imagination, and it can be broken by disasters both real and imaginary. The only thing that keeps any civilization going is whether enough people think it's still worth the effort to maintain the infrastructure properly. We have come to expect too much of imaginary constructs, and so we find civilization failing to meet our impossible expectations again and again. Soon it will be torn down by the ungrateful, and only after it's gone will anyone realize how much it did for them.
 
2014-03-16 12:44:35 PM  

big pig peaches: NASA funded? Um, no. Some idiots doing a study based on a NASA model.
Society didn't collapse after the fall of Rome; it just changed. And it will again.

/but if everyone gets a handy, I'm ok with it.


According to one study it took the average Briton a thousand years to reach the same standard of living they had under Rome.

/yeah, yeah, "Who are the Britons?"
 
2014-03-16 12:45:16 PM  
ts1.mm.bing.net
 
2014-03-16 12:45:52 PM  
So, the industrial civilization gave us the computers and satellites that now allow NASA to predict our doom.

/ Fascinating...
 
2014-03-16 12:47:25 PM  
Just curious, how many people here who are behind the results of this study laugh and scoff at "preppers"?
 
2014-03-16 12:50:10 PM  

Whatchoo Talkinbout: We will not avoid the crisis because both sides are pointing the finger at the other while they struggle to get into 'Looting Position' or in charge. And all of us a tricked into being part of the scam. It has always been this way, we don't know any better.


We will not fix the crisis because people like you care more about getting robbed than about fixing problems.

/it's a legitimate concern, of course
//mostly because your inability to separate fantasy from reality results in you falling for any con artists that tell you what you want to hear
///and also makes you viciously reject anyone that dares tell you what you actually need to hear
 
2014-03-16 12:51:03 PM  

mr lawson: Pharmdawg: and the wealthy elites laughed it off and kept on drinking and partying and irrevocably farking things up.

none...they prepared for it. It was the general masses that didn't


It is incumbent upon those with wealth, power, and strength to shepherd the weak, poor and powerless, to make careful, honorable decisions that help the entire society move forward.

Otherwise French Revolution.jpeg
 
2014-03-16 12:53:25 PM  
Last I thought, NASA stood for National Aeronautics and Space Administration.  This has little if anything to do with their purpose of space exploration.  How about directing some of the funds for this study to further that pursuit and bring back a manned space flight system?  After all, we're relying on the Russians to supply the ISS, take up and bring down people, etc. and considering the situation in the Crimea, that's not a good thing.

As for the report itself, there is a grain of truth to what it says.  There is also some other key things they leave out, like say technological advances that might occur in resource recycling and any possible developments in propulsion technology that might potentially allow humanity to extract resources from off in space and developments in materials technology that would allow resource extraction off shore.  The other problem is that this report is so clearly a piece of propaganda that's attempted to be cloaked in the veil of science to justify what the wacko leftists really want: power.   That's what it's all about.  It's a good way to divide a nation, too.  Which is exactly what they're going to get.
 
2014-03-16 12:54:20 PM  
I'm not sure if it would help stop an industrial collapse but I'm pretty sure stopping the fake money presses would help reel in government agency's and corral them back in to their jurisdictions...

bring jobs back.
 
2014-03-16 12:55:08 PM  
@cantsleep
The study shows what could happen if "large scale" change doesn't occur on a "world wide" basis.
The numbers I present to mitigate all of the doom and gloom are not "large" nor even are needed to be "world wide".

"Preppers" who think that their year's supply of food, in a basement/cave and their collection of guns and "insert large number" of rounds of ammo are going to get them through a society destroying event are simply self-medicating their fears. It isn't laughable, it is just a sad reflection of the fear that is being propogated by all media sources at some level on a constant basis.
 
2014-03-16 12:55:43 PM  

cantsleep: Just curious, how many people here who are behind the results of this study laugh and scoff at "preppers"?


I do. The reason I skoff at preppers is something called "The Sixth Extinction." There is a book by Richard Leaky and a newer one with the same title by Elizabeth Kolbert that explains the situation. The damage humans are causing is not something like the collapse of the Easter Islanders, Greenland Norse etc. We are taking out whole genera of worms, amphibians, plants, corals and fish. Stocking up on ammo from Walmart is not really the answer.
 
2014-03-16 01:04:47 PM  
@bobthemagnificent

NASA is trying to point out that if change doesn't occur, then we won't have a very livable planet, and in the next 40 years, we won't be in a position to get off this one to go somewhere else. That is what makes this NASA's purvue. We won't be ready to explore space if Earth is a climactic, political warring wasteland over resources, money, and political power. It is just one more source of information telling humanity collectively that we should try to get our world in order, so that we can continue to grow and survive as a species, perhaps somewhere other than this one blue ball.
 
2014-03-16 01:08:53 PM  
Any decent psychohistorian could tell that we are approaching a Seldon Crisis.
 
2014-03-16 01:08:54 PM  

Tatterdemalian: Whatchoo Talkinbout: We will not avoid the crisis because both sides are pointing the finger at the other while they struggle to get into 'Looting Position' or in charge. And all of us a tricked into being part of the scam. It has always been this way, we don't know any better.

We will not fix the crisis because people like you care more about getting robbed than about fixing problems.

/it's a legitimate concern, of course
//mostly because your inability to separate fantasy from reality results in you falling for any con artists that tell you what you want to hear
///and also makes you viciously reject anyone that dares tell you what you actually need to hear


Clearly you're projecting you internal issues on others. I listen, I hear, but I also have an active BS meter, your post triggered, as does nearly every politician that runs for office. Also as clear as day, you don't 'get' sarcasm nor read English well.
 
2014-03-16 01:08:58 PM  
A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution.

LOL Next up, let's go ask some economists to plot us a trajectory to Mars.
 
2014-03-16 01:11:00 PM  
I'll do just fine
 
2014-03-16 01:20:17 PM  

Acravius: @bobthemagnificent

NASA is trying to point out that if change doesn't occur, then we won't have a very livable planet, and in the next 40 years, we won't be in a position to get off this one to go somewhere else. That is what makes this NASA's purvue. We won't be ready to explore space if Earth is a climactic, political warring wasteland over resources, money, and political power. It is just one more source of information telling humanity collectively that we should try to get our world in order, so that we can continue to grow and survive as a species, perhaps somewhere other than this one blue ball.


That's one good way to look at. Although, I like to think that there were a whole bunch of bright men and women who would be unemployed after the space shuttle unless they could be turned loose on planetary issues.

Our extinction qualifies. This collapse is different from the demise of the Soviet Union etc. This is a "Sixth Extinction" because of the damage caused. Too many genera are projected to die out. When this happened in the past, every land animal over 100 lbs vanished.

Also, we can't move to another blue ball. We are stuck here.
 
2014-03-16 01:20:50 PM  

cantsleep: Just curious, how many people here who are behind the results of this study laugh and scoff at "preppers"?


I've seen people scoff and laugh at suggestions to keep a first aid kit and 3 day supply kit in an earthquake zone.
 
2014-03-16 01:21:20 PM  
Just stick to your fake landing sets.
 
2014-03-16 01:21:23 PM  
Human civilization mimics life. It was born, it will grow and it will die. To carry on we have to reproduce a new better version and adapt. Industrialaztion was spring, technological innovation was summer, but fall and winter are coming and we have many mouths to feed. Do we have enough cattle feed to last until next spring? I predict a North Korea Soviet Detroit style civilization for about 50 years if we don't. Dress warm.
 
2014-03-16 01:24:46 PM  
I will just add this to the towering stack of alarmist catastrophe prediction articles that have failed to come true for the last 40+ years...
 
2014-03-16 01:24:55 PM  
"in association with a team of natural and social scientists"

Stopped reading at that point.
 
2014-03-16 01:27:12 PM  

StokeyBob: I'm not sure if it would help stop an industrial collapse but I'm pretty sure stopping the fake money presses would help reel in government agency's and corral them back in to their jurisdictions...

bring jobs back.


All money is inherently fake, even when it's based on useless lumps of yellow metal. It's as real as we universally agree it is.It's not a problem unless you get a bunch of uneducated idiots elected to government that don't understand world economies and do everything they can to undermine our countries good credit. All because they think world governments run like personal checking accounts.
Unfortunately, one of the core functions of capitalism is to destroy jobs and lower purchasing power in it's eternal motive to reduce costs. It's inherently self destructive.
 
2014-03-16 01:37:02 PM  

Delay: cantsleep: Just curious, how many people here who are behind the results of this study laugh and scoff at "preppers"?

I do. The reason I skoff at preppers is something called "The Sixth Extinction." There is a book by Richard Leaky and a newer one with the same title by Elizabeth Kolbert that explains the situation. The damage humans are causing is not something like the collapse of the Easter Islanders, Greenland Norse etc. We are taking out whole genera of worms, amphibians, plants, corals and fish. Stocking up on ammo from Walmart is not really the answer.


Still no reason to scoff, IMO. One of mankinds base urges is to protect yourself and your family. I see these people as doing what they feel they can to do just that.
/ not a prepper
 
2014-03-16 01:41:57 PM  
If we could work together for as long each year that we spend trying to kill each other on Call of Duty, most of these issues would already be fixed.

Between 2010 and 2013, humanity spent a collective 213 million years playing Call of Duty in it's many variations. I am not singling out COD, I am sure that millions of years of collective time was spent commuting to and from work, talking on the internet, and playing other video games during those three years.

I'm not saying that the time wasn't time well spent, because real people weren't being hurt, it's just that we seem to have a lot of human resources that aren't being valued very well if it was more utilitarian to shoot at avatars for all that time, than go out and do the very small (in comparison) steps it would take to stop hurting our world's ecosystem.
 
2014-03-16 01:45:40 PM  
"the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history." Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to "precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common."

sooopp...not irreversible?
 
2014-03-16 01:47:27 PM  

cantsleep: Still no reason to scoff, IMO. One of mankinds base urges is to protect yourself and your family. I see these people as doing what they feel they can to do just that.
/ not a prepper


Fair enough. But what separates mankind from other large animals that also want to protect themselves and their family? Here is the answer, and it is not just my opinion, it is our human capacity to "know thyself" hence our species name Homo sapiens.

The deniers who want you to ignore very obvious paths that would avoid collapse may be very bad people. There, I said it.
 
2014-03-16 01:48:44 PM  

Acravius: If we could work together for as long each year that we spend trying to kill each other on Call of Duty, most of these issues would already be fixed.

Between 2010 and 2013, humanity spent a collective 213 million years playing Call of Duty in it's many variations. I am not singling out COD, I am sure that millions of years of collective time was spent commuting to and from work, talking on the internet, and playing other video games during those three years.

I'm not saying that the time wasn't time well spent, because real people weren't being hurt, it's just that we seem to have a lot of human resources that aren't being valued very well if it was more utilitarian to shoot at avatars for all that time, than go out and do the very small (in comparison) steps it would take to stop hurting our world's ecosystem.

img.fark.net
hmm those numbers seem low.
 
2014-03-16 01:54:31 PM  

Cuchulane: StokeyBob: I'm not sure if it would help stop an industrial collapse but I'm pretty sure stopping the fake money presses would help reel in government agency's and corral them back in to their jurisdictions...

bring jobs back.

All money is inherently fake, even when it's based on useless lumps of yellow metal. It's as real as we universally agree it is.It's not a problem unless you get a bunch of uneducated idiots elected to government that don't understand world economies and do everything they can to undermine our countries good credit. All because they think world governments run like personal checking accounts.
Unfortunately, one of the core functions of capitalism is to destroy jobs and lower purchasing power in it's eternal motive to reduce costs. It's inherently self destructive.


Capitalism shouldn't be sold out to socialism by those that have no money, borrowing from those that have none, and transferring the debt over to an unsuspecting public through inflation and bonded servitude.
 
2014-03-16 01:57:14 PM  
Sometimes, I think that we should just burn down the world for the insurance money and start over. But, it doesn't matter, because; we're all doooooomed.
 
2014-03-16 02:03:29 PM  

Acravius: Superconductive grid can store energy up to baud transmission capacities


Er... what? The superconductors we have right now require liquid-nitrogen-ish temperatures and have limited current-carrying capacities. Building even a mile-long transmission line and keeping it at 138K (highest claimed critical temp as of a tiny net search, roughly -211 F) would be insanely expensive. And there are hundreds of thousands of miles of transmission lines in just the USA. (And what did you mean by that last bit? "Level transitions per second transmission capacities" doesn't make much sense.)

Reduce the sprawl of the cities into small 1, 2 or 3 square mile 500, 2000, and 9000 respectively vertical 30 to 50 story buildings

Telling everybody that they have to move into a small apartment in an arcology will go over really well. The only way that people would do this willingly would be if living in this hypothetical mega-apartment was a lot better than living in a 3-bedroom house in a suburb. This is possible--it'd just be difficult to do.

Vertical farming, more solar plants, and more wind turbines sound like good ideas though.
 
2014-03-16 02:06:53 PM  

steveGswine: They named the model...  HANDY?  It's HANDY that's telling us this?


I expected all the Fark comments to be about this seeming like a HANDY-job or a job for Handi-Man.
 
2014-03-16 02:08:05 PM  

Hickory-smoked: Nightjars: What's the mother of invention?  I can't remember..

You can't drive a truck off a cliff and expect to invent a hang glider on the way down.


This gets the rare "smart" and "funny" double-vote.
 
2014-03-16 02:08:06 PM  

FormlessOne: In other words, this isn't a problem out of which you can simply invent your way. Oddly enough, less, not more, is the solution here, but no one wants to hear that, not in a culture that values materialism and conspicuous consumption as its cornerstone.


It's not just a set of popular cultural values that drives this, it's the very nature of a capitalist economy - the increasing profit that drives growth requires expanding markets, increased resource exploitation, and improved efficiency. Shockingly, this is not sustainable.
 
2014-03-16 02:09:14 PM  

Click Click D'oh: FormlessOne: *sticks fingers in years, shouts "LALALALALALALA" to drown out scary things...*

Where did I say such things shouldn't be studied?  I didn't, so go light your strawman on fire.

NASAs mandate is to shoot people and things into space in the name of science and conduct kick arse atmospheric research, not sociology and economics. We've got other people for that.  If NASA doesn't want to do it's job, it's time to defund them.


When NASA detects a high potential of extreme weather emergencies caused by climate change--which, thanks to their research on other planets, they  have experience studying--they are entirely within their jurisdiction to find the root cause and propose solutions. That was the entire point of the article--we're going to kill ourselves via climate change because of how our society is set up, with a list of potential catastrophes. TFA just dramatized the stuff about the root cause.
 
2014-03-16 02:09:49 PM  

iheartscotch: Sometimes, I think that we should just burn down the world for the insurance money and start over. But, it doesn't matter, because; we're all doooooomed.


Earth missing in flight. More after this word. This is CNN.
 
2014-03-16 02:10:59 PM  
What I don't understand is why any of you greenies are using a computer for recration purposes? You are being beyond wasteful and selfish and should cease doing so immediately. GTFO
 
2014-03-16 02:12:36 PM  

StokeyBob: Cuchulane: StokeyBob: I'm not sure if it would help stop an industrial collapse but I'm pretty sure stopping the fake money presses would help reel in government agency's and corral them back in to their jurisdictions...

bring jobs back.

All money is inherently fake, even when it's based on useless lumps of yellow metal. It's as real as we universally agree it is.It's not a problem unless you get a bunch of uneducated idiots elected to government that don't understand world economies and do everything they can to undermine our countries good credit. All because they think world governments run like personal checking accounts.
Unfortunately, one of the core functions of capitalism is to destroy jobs and lower purchasing power in it's eternal motive to reduce costs. It's inherently self destructive.

Capitalism shouldn't be sold out to socialism by those that have no money, borrowing from those that have none, and transferring the debt over to an unsuspecting public through inflation and bonded servitude.


Exactly, public services should be privatized and consumers forced to pay for what they use, and if they need to borrow against assets (or against their future income) to do so, that's just market forces about to work at making people into rational calculators of cost and benefit. That way you and I won't have to fork over our hard earned money in taxes to support those that refuse to need less, and those that continue to live beyond their means can reasonably and justifiably wind up as debt-slaves, just like it used to be in the good old days.
 
2014-03-16 02:14:11 PM  
Almost all finite resources we currently use have current or near future renewable replacements, except for a very few like helium. Almost everything we do can be done for the next 100 million years. Over-population is the only reasonable mechanism that might cause problems, but we can solve that One Child per Family style.

The sky is not falling.
 
2014-03-16 02:15:40 PM  

Destructor: NASA: More space ships, less economic guesses. FOCUS.


Right.  Because to badly paraphrase Farker lawson's comment: it'll be great when the distant colony we establish at the cost of trillions of dollars collapses because the colonists fight over the proper cost of a Mars Bar.

/get it?  Mars Bar?
//NASA thinks of freaking everything in their planning
///except O-rings and missing chunks of tiling apparently
////even NASA is human
 
2014-03-16 02:20:04 PM  
Which NASA?

This one

writingjunkie.net

or this one?

www.nasa.gov
 
2014-03-16 02:23:17 PM  
Dances with Crows
The 15,000 mile superconductive loop would connect along the major highways all of 300 major cities in America.
 According to these companies they have the technology to make Superconductive wires at liquid nitrogen temperatures, and the technology to keep componentry at those temperatures for long periods of time in realtime electrical transmission.

http://www.suptech.com/locations_austin.php

http://www.hypres.com/

http://www.c-wst.com/English/zdxm.asp?atype=Superconducting%20missio n& classtype=Major%20project

The apartments that I am talking about in those 30-50 story buildings would be 100ft x100ft for a total of 10,000 square foot of living space, with secured entry, only 10 floors of shared elevator including 1st and 2nd story commercial/retail space and underground parking, personal space for gardening and localized entertainment available for blocks of housing units.

As to the last statement, I don't know, it appears you may have combined some of my sentances, as I was looking and trying to utilize the trannsmission and storage capacity of a superconductive wire, as becoming the same, because there is no heat to dissipate energy, so if all of the energy is not transmitted it remains "stored" in the superconductive loop. There was a charge stored for 8 years at the Teledyne Wah Chang facility near Albany OR, from 1988 to 1996, by sending it around and around the loop without loss during all that time.

I hope that clarifies my posts. Sorry for the confusion.
 
2014-03-16 02:32:59 PM  
humanity is farked?  oh, big surprise.

now go gang-rape an innocent girl or invade a neighboring country, stop bothering me.
 
2014-03-16 02:33:38 PM  

Acravius: @bobthemagnificent

NASA is trying to point out that if change doesn't occur, then we won't have a very livable planet, and in the next 40 years, we won't be in a position to get off this one to go somewhere else. That is what makes this NASA's purvue. We won't be ready to explore space if Earth is a climactic, political warring wasteland over resources, money, and political power. It is just one more source of information telling humanity collectively that we should try to get our world in order, so that we can continue to grow and survive as a species, perhaps somewhere other than this one blue ball.


Okay, I can see that point of view.  That still leaves the question of what to do about it..  We need industrialization to survive and grow and sustain our economy, same with the natural resources that are required to sustain our current economy.  How do you go about solving the problem without causing a potential economic collapse and 2nd American Civil War?
 
2014-03-16 02:36:12 PM  

Animatronik: RandyRick: More libtard propaganda.  The truth is we can grow as much as we want, consume as much as we want, pollute as much as we want, and there are no consequences. Because... job creators... Jesus... America!

/Conservative logic

More Libtard smearing of conservative logic. Youd be surprised how many conservatives are conservationists and support alternative energy. The issue is how you get there and what to do about the rest of the world.


Don't bother.  Logic and liberalism are 2 things that don't go in the same sentence.  Liberals are still hung up on the 80s image of a conservative being a bible thumping redneck.  They can't seem to understand what a conservative really believes because of their own excellent smear campaign.
 
2014-03-16 02:37:29 PM  
Well just going by how long my Dad and his Dad lasted, I'm not banking on more than another Decade for myself at best give or take a few years. Never had kids so this DNA strand ends with me, I'm OK with that too so as far as I'm concerned, well, I'm Not! Good luck to the rest of Ya'll!
 
2014-03-16 02:44:55 PM  

brimed03: Destructor: NASA: More space ships, less economic guesses. FOCUS.

Right.  Because to badly paraphrase Farker lawson's comment: it'll be great when the distant colony we establish at the cost of trillions of dollars collapses because the colonists fight over the proper cost of a Mars Bar.


I'm simply excited at the prospect of reviewing the Department of Health and Human Services plan for a comet rendezvous and return mission. Maybe the Department of Justice can pitch in, you know, to make sure all the engines fire fairly. It seems the FCC has too much time on its hands, maybe they can pitch in... :-)
 
2014-03-16 02:50:13 PM  
For a Nasa study, it sounds like some freshmen college paper after their first intro to politics class, mixed with a little green eco-nut brainwashing: the solution to everything is communism, and living in the dirt in caves with primitive agricultural methods, after eliminating 'excess' population because wealth is evil.
 
2014-03-16 02:57:50 PM  

StokeyBob: Cuchulane: StokeyBob: I'm not sure if it would help stop an industrial collapse but I'm pretty sure stopping the fake money presses would help reel in government agency's and corral them back in to their jurisdictions...

bring jobs back.

All money is inherently fake, even when it's based on useless lumps of yellow metal. It's as real as we universally agree it is.It's not a problem unless you get a bunch of uneducated idiots elected to government that don't understand world economies and do everything they can to undermine our countries good credit. All because they think world governments run like personal checking accounts.
Unfortunately, one of the core functions of capitalism is to destroy jobs and lower purchasing power in it's eternal motive to reduce costs. It's inherently self destructive.

Capitalism shouldn't be sold out to socialism by those that have no money, borrowing from those that have none, and transferring the debt over to an unsuspecting public through inflation and bonded servitude.


It's a mistake to think that it can only be one it the other. History shows the inevitable circle of unchecked capitalism destroying the very customer base that supports it, leading to rampant income inequality, followed by revolution and imposed over reaching socialism that destroys new growth, that leads to unchecked capitalism, and so on, and so on...
Long term sustainability has always been the result of a marriage of the two in check and balance. When capitalism destroys one segment through innovation, cost cutting, or manipulation, socialism kicks in to hold things together until capitalism can create a replacement segment. At some point the balance leaves some segments solely to the purview of socialism where there is no recognition of the types of short term profits that capitalism thrives on, but also cannot be sustained in the long term without.
Unfortunately, our current capitalist economy is being largely sustained by a very large socialist endeavor - our military, which is after all a government program. Because left to its own, the last thing a good capitalist wants to do is create jobs. Jobs cut into profits.
 
2014-03-16 03:01:39 PM  

Sidecrab: Almost all finite resources we currently use have current or near future renewable replacements, except for a very few like helium. Almost everything we do can be done for the next 100 million years. Over-population is the only reasonable mechanism that might cause problems, but we can solve that One Child per Family style.

The sky is not falling.


Planet-bound thinking detected.
 
2014-03-16 03:02:05 PM  

Acravius: Solving the WORLD's global consumption of seafood in all forms

21.7 miles of Deep Blue fishing technology to produce the 90,000,000 tons of fish and
coastal farming of the 30,000,000 tons of sea plant life we take from the ocean every year.


I'm not familiar with Deep Blue, but won't acidification make any kind of sea farming rather difficult?


These are all available with today's technology. We don't have to go down the d ...

Don't have to, but it still seems like a probable outcome.
 
2014-03-16 03:06:34 PM  

incrdbil: For a Nasa study, it sounds like some freshmen college paper after their first intro to politics class, mixed with a little green eco-nut brainwashing: the solution to everything is communism, and living in the dirt in caves with primitive agricultural methods, after eliminating 'excess' population because wealth is evil.


Are you reading the same article we are? Because a lot of what you just said sounds like fabricated strawmen.
 
2014-03-16 03:11:18 PM  

lostcat: If you want to understand who the Elite (over-consumers) are, go look in your garbage cans and fridge for any food that's spoiled, uneaten, and the amount of plastic and other materials that are going to a landfill. Also check around your house for redundant "luxury" items, like "old" cell phones, multiple TVs, George Foreman grills, etc.

Consider that if you randomly picked a human being on Earth, the would be barely getting enough calories in a day, and maybe, just maybe have flip-phone.


Exactly.

If you are reading this, you are likely in the global 1% that people like the person who wrote this article is talking about taking down a notch or two for the sake of humanity. If you are still OK with this, you need to start with the man in the mirror. Lead by example. Take yourself down to a global median lifestyle before you try to force it on the rest of us.
 
2014-03-16 03:14:26 PM  
came for GrumpyCatGood, leaving satisfied.

/collapse, you farker!
 
2014-03-16 03:20:01 PM  

Geordles: yeah, NASA says a lot of things


Wher is my goddamned flying car?
 
2014-03-16 03:23:15 PM  

Cuchulane: StokeyBob: I'm not sure if it would help stop an industrial collapse but I'm pretty sure stopping the fake money presses would help reel in government agency's and corral them back in to their jurisdictions...

bring jobs back.

All money is inherently fake, even when it's based on useless lumps of yellow metal. It's as real as we universally agree it is.It's not a problem unless you get a bunch of uneducated idiots elected to government that don't understand world economies and do everything they can to undermine our countries good credit. All because they think world governments run like personal checking accounts.
Unfortunately, one of the core functions of capitalism is to destroy jobs and lower purchasing power in it's eternal motive to reduce costs. It's inherently self destructive.


Well, if you don't have somebody centrally managing the economy, and in the process magnifying all their human failings to the point that every failed prediction and foiled mind-reading attempt causes economic ruin to thousands of innocent people, you will get what you have defined as runaway, unregulated capitalism. There is no solution to this "problem," either someone runs the economy, or "the invisible hand" runs the economy.

/we used to let it have as much freedom to grow as could be allowed without causing harm
//but that wasn't good enough, and now we demand it do things an economic system should never be expected to do
///small wonder it's still failing
 
2014-03-16 03:27:58 PM  

FormlessOne: Must've missed the part in the article where NASA reminds folks that "technological change can raise the efficiency of resource use, but it also tends to raise both per capita resource consumption and the scale of resource extraction, so that, absent policy effects, the increases in consumption often compensate for the increased efficiency of resource use."

In other words, this isn't a problem out of which you can simply invent your way. Oddly enough, less, not more, is the solution here, but no one wants to hear that, not in a culture that values materialism and conspicuous consumption as its cornerstone.


I disagree.  Less will push out the day of reckoning but it won't avoid it.  The only path that avoids it is sufficient inventing.  Whether that path is possible is uncertain but it is certain that no other path leads to a desirable future.

We are probably looking at the cause of Fermi's Paradox--and if so doom is virtually certain.

Gone In 26 Minutes: Doomsaying has never done anything except profit the doomsayers - either tangibly with money or otherwise with attention to projects they want done. In some cases, this can be a good thing (see: emphasis and money put into renewable and cleaner energy sources,) but in others it can be the foundation of a scam (see: 'carbon credits.')


Except when we act in time to avert the doom.  Consider, for example, Y2K.  Had we ignored this there would have been a *LOT* of problems.

Rozotorical: The world does not equal industrialized civilization. If you think industrial and post industrial life styles are sustainable then your sir, are a grade a moron.


The alternative is basically stone-age existence.  Who decides what 99.99% of the world's population dies?

Gone In 26 Minutes: I'm well aware. That's part of my point. Somehow, even when it seemed impossible, something prevented us from killing ourselves with our own stupidity and hubris. I think people need less faith in Jesus and more faith in each other specifically because of those lucky events. Human beings make the best miracles; whose to say our future will be any different?


The cultures that destroyed themselves aren't around to be noticed other than by archeologists.
 
2014-03-16 03:45:02 PM  
@ Hickory Smoked

I got the company name wrong, but here is the technology and process I was referring to.

http://www.openblue.com/open-ocean-raised/our-process/

They produced 1 million lbs of fish delivered to market in both 2012 and 2013 from their small 1500 square foot deep water net production facilities.

If we don't do the other things to mitigate the CO2 absorbtion by the sea, then yes we could have a big problem with the soda pop ocean and resulting PH problems, but if we did everything as a big 10 year package, then things would start to revert back over the next 30 years (from 2025 to 2055) and we could have the 1980's climate (without the Ozone layer holes) that most of us liked quite a bit. It would just be approximately twice as populated as it was in the 80's, but with better cities, it wouldn't have to feel too crowded (See Singapore's growth over the past 30 years).
 
2014-03-16 03:45:38 PM  
Verwirrung (Chaos)

Zweitracht (Discord)

Unordnung (Confusion)

Beamtenherrschaft (Bureaucracy)

Grummet (Aftermath)
 
2014-03-16 03:47:54 PM  
Thanks, Obama.
 
2014-03-16 03:58:53 PM  

Rozotorical: TV's Vinnie: Delay: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

Big Macs are part of the problem. "60% of the world's agricultural land is used for beef production, yet beef accounts for less than 2% of the calories that are consumed throughout the world." FAO UN

And again, we should have already been extinct twenty years ago if these Doctor Downers were right.

Society collapse doesn't equal extinction.


True. My son's best friend is Mayan
 
2014-03-16 04:02:04 PM  
Past reactions to climate change is to kill the guys next door.  Usually both suffer.
 
2014-03-16 04:07:31 PM  

Back Alley Proctologist: lostcat: If you want to understand who the Elite (over-consumers) are, go look in your garbage cans and fridge for any food that's spoiled, uneaten, and the amount of plastic and other materials that are going to a landfill. Also check around your house for redundant "luxury" items, like "old" cell phones, multiple TVs, George Foreman grills, etc.

Consider that if you randomly picked a human being on Earth, the would be barely getting enough calories in a day, and maybe, just maybe have flip-phone.

Exactly.

If you are reading this, you are likely in the global 1% that people like the person who wrote this article is talking about taking down a notch or two for the sake of humanity. If you are still OK with this, you need to start with the man in the mirror. Lead by example. Take yourself down to a global median lifestyle before you try to force it on the rest of us.


tu quoque. -- doesn't work. We're apes more than angels.
 
2014-03-16 04:12:25 PM  

Acravius: Dances with Crows


FWIW, putting spaces in usernames where they don't exist b0rks Fark's "notify user when replies are posted" function. That's why it took so long for me to reply....

According to these companies they have the technology to make superconductive wires

Neat trick if they can do it. The superconductors that have Tc above 77K are all ceramics (perovskite-like structure), which don't respond well to metal-forming techniques. Wikipedia says: "American Superconductor Corporation (AMSC)[11] is producing Amperium wire [which] exhibits conductivity approximately 200 times that of copper wire of similar dimensions." Nice, but not superconductive.

and the technology to keep componentry at those temperatures for long periods of time in realtime electrical transmission.

This is something that I'd have to see to believe. Maintaining a 216K temperature differential across a gigantic volume[0] seems like it'd require enormous amounts of energy. Maintaining a 14K temperature differential (110 F outside, 85 F inside) in my condo in high summer takes about 8 KWh/day--and that's only 197 cubic meters with not much direct sunlight.

The apartments that I am talking about in those 30-50 story buildings would be 100ft x100ft for a total of 10,000 square foot of living space...

This doesn't sound terrible[1], but there are a large number of people who have an emotional connection to their land/houses and will not give them up. There are also a large number of people who want to live where the nearest neighbors are at least a mile away, not 100 feet away. How will you deal with these things? <SARCASM>Having men with guns say "move to Place N or we send you to the re-education camps" has worked out really well in the past.</SARCASM>

As to the last statement, I don't know, it appears you may have combined some of my sentances

Nope, direct quote from what you posted at 2014-03-16 12:32:07 PM. Also, this hypothetical superconducting thing would have to be a web, not a loop, or severing it at any point would kill everyone's electricity. Hello, additional costs!

There was a charge stored for 8 years at the Teledyne Wah Chang facility near Albany OR, from 1988 to 1996

I believe that. How large was this charge? And have they solved the current density problem for polycrystals described in this Pickyweedia article about a representative liquid-N2 superconductor? If you stuff too many amps into a superconductor, it stops being a superconductor, and that makes everything stop working. "Too many amps" is depressingly low (not enough amps to power a vacuum cleaner) for the high-temp superconductors that I could find with a brief search.

TL;DR: I don't think the technology for long-distance superconductive power transmission is available yet, and the physicists will need another 10-20 years of research to get it there.

[0] 15000 miles = 2.414*10^9 cm, multiply by conduit cross-sectional area, say 7.62 cm circle for 45.603 cm^2 and you get ... about half a Sears Tower, not a trivial amount.
[1] I like living in apartments/condos/dense housing/urban areas though, and not everyone does.
 
2014-03-16 04:29:09 PM  
FTA
"These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: "the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity"; and

"the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or "Commoners") [poor]" These social phenomena have played "a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse," in all such cases over "the last five thousand years."

I wonder how many of these collapses were accelerated by complaints to the Almighty?
I think, most of them.
What they gonna do?
Nuke the Almighty?
It will happen just the opposite:

Bear in mind that the solar disc that we see is actually the "Garment" that shields earth from infernal, deadly radiation. A sunspot is a hole in that "garment"
Look at closeups of sunspots... looks like a pit, right?

The part of the sun we use to describe its size is the outermost cloud top, like a mantle on a lantern, that is what translates the deadly radioactive emissions into visible light, that can sustain life, etc
The actual sun is physically very small, but it warps its own space time, so our concepts of space/time/mass fail to describe what is under those 'Garments"

One day, the entire "garment" will be rent asunder, and the 'sunspot' will cover the entire disc of the sun, for about 3 days...
Earth, and the works of man will be fully exposed to the wrathful monster that hides beneath the Garment of Light.

Also, a simple change in a certain quantum level relationship can render all nuclear reactions impossible. Another change, slightly higher up, can render electricity and its rules as we know it today... impossible.

A quantum change in a particular molecular relationship, brought Noah's flood, shrunk the earth & wrinkled it, brought down the immense clear water vapor shield that encircled the earth, made ice that expands & floats, and rainbows a new property of water.

Quantum climate change can propagate thru the universe from other places, and this is why life became possible on earth, why Einstein suddenly had a key that worked...
Ancients could have done what we have done, but the quantum climate was unfavorable...

Funny thing is, humans think it cant happen here, again; thus, all the more shocking when it does.


Quantum climate change...
 
2014-03-16 04:29:25 PM  
American Superconductor Corporation (AMSC)[11] is producing Amperium wire [which] exhibits conductivity approximately 200 times that of copper wire of similar dimensions."

@#$%. BSCCO wires 4mm wide and 0.2mm thick have a 200A critical current density at 77K, but the process for making those tapes/wires uses silver. Silver is a heck of a lot more expensive than copper/aluminum/many metals. A 15000-mile-long strand of wire that's 1" in diameter would be ... 6.131 * 10^9 cm^3 or 6.432 * 10^7 kg of silver, which is ... er, about 1/3 of global silver production in 2011 assuming I haven't borked a decimal place somewhere. This'd be a seriously expensive project.
 
2014-03-16 04:29:35 PM  

bobothemagnificent: Animatronik: RandyRick: More libtard propaganda.  The truth is we can grow as much as we want, consume as much as we want, pollute as much as we want, and there are no consequences. Because... job creators... Jesus... America!

/Conservative logic

More Libtard smearing of conservative logic. Youd be surprised how many conservatives are conservationists and support alternative energy. The issue is how you get there and what to do about the rest of the world.

Don't bother.  Logic and liberalism are 2 things that don't go in the same sentence.  Liberals are still hung up on the 80s image of a conservative being a bible thumping redneck.  They can't seem to understand what a conservative really believes because of their own excellent smear campaign.


Hmmm....I think I have a pretty good grasp of what 'real' (caveat: Southern) American conservatives believe considering I've lived in Alabama my entire life:

Free Market Capitalism is the spiritually designed product Evangelical Dominionist Christianity, therefore, all other economic systems are blasphemous. Poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough, and rich people are rich because they have been blessed by God.
 
2014-03-16 04:34:42 PM  
Elite wealth monopolies mean that they are buffered from the most "detrimental effects of the environmental collapse until much later than the Commoners", allowing them to "continue 'business as usual' despite the impending catastrophe."

Precisely why we can't let The Free Market decide when we need to do things like switch away from fossil fuels.
I don't care how efficient it is, The Free Market has no idea what we should do, or what we need to do.  It responds only to money.
The Free Market will happily drive us off the edge of a cliff simply because it is the most efficient way to get to the bottom of the mountain.
 
2014-03-16 04:41:14 PM  

bobothemagnificent: They can't seem to understand what a conservative really believes because of their own excellent smear campaign.


More like Fox's smear campaign.  They do an excellent job of making conservatives look like complete idiots.  Frankly I've seen more compelling conservative arguments on MSNBC than Fox; I happen to disagree with them, but at least they seem coherent half the time.  I understand what non-derpy conservatives think, I just don't agree with their reasoning.
 
2014-03-16 04:45:25 PM  
Scary tag? Was the OBVIOUS tag taking a vacation? No shiat our pathetic society is doomed. It's being run into the ground by idiots.
 
2014-03-16 04:51:20 PM  

Acravius: Amazingly a SFW oglaf that sums up the whole situation, including the text over.

http://oglaf.com/illusionist/

text box: "Money's an illusion."

Other content on oglaf is generally not safe for work, but this one page cartoon is free of nudity or sexual innuendo.


Looking around, I think I can see the influence of a delusionist here and there, as well.
 
2014-03-16 04:58:57 PM  
Project Pitchfork -"Terra Incognita"

he says - imagine a planet whose inhabitants have only two sexes
she says - imagine a planet whose inhabitants oppress themselves
it says - imagine a planet whose inhabitants exploit the weak
they look at the stars and laugh
on this planet. he says - imagine beings poisoning their oceans
she says - imagine these beings destroying their environment
it says - imagine these beings polluting their air
they shake their heads . and think how funny
on this world . he says - imagine a race who say they're the most intelligent
she says - imagine this race annihilating the other species
it says - imagine this race annihilating themselves
such suicidal stupidity can only be fiction - they finally say
 
2014-03-16 05:02:54 PM  
Obvious tag broken?
 
2014-03-16 05:03:37 PM  
This is the product of the current line of environmental science propaganda being taught to the last few generations of college students. It's the end, wave your arms.
Be afraid. Panic. Send money.

Feh.
 
2014-03-16 05:09:12 PM  
Nobody on the right complains that much regarding the 10s of Trillions of dollars spent on international military projects that are no less of a boogeyman than climate change.
 
2014-03-16 05:31:08 PM  
danceswithcrows

The budget for the superconductive loop project would be about $50 Billion, or ~$3.1 million per mile, but it would save ~$65 billion in coal costs per year, so in one year it would pay for itself in energy and raw materials costs. Also it is would be distributed via all of the major highway routes.

North to South you go I-5, 1-15, 1-25, I-35, I-55, I-75 and I-95
East to West you go  I-90, 1-84, I-80, I-70, I-40, I-15 and I-10

At each of the 300 cities, you would have a 1/7 of an Olympic Size Swimming pool for electrolysis, and a storage facility of Oxygen/Hydrogen, and a steam power plant, that would be feuled by the Hydrogen and Oxygen while boiling the water for power for local distribution. The back up power would only be 61% efficient, but it would allow for rerouting and repair, without loss of service to the area of the failure.

As to the people moving into the 10,000 square foot apartments, I am sure there are plenty of people who would like to go from their 1200 square foot loft to a 10K square foot loft for a $300,000 price tag, get their own floor, and have only the ceiling and floor to worry about in terms of noise. With modern sound dampening, almost all that noise could be silenced rather well and if not, you could get those sound dampening head phones.

I know that some people would like to live in random small town name Alladin, South Dakota (population 11) and places like that. We still need small towns for a lot of reasons. If we made city living less low rise, and all high rise, and removed most of the sprawl, a lot less crime would take place, and a lot less government services would be needed, along with all of that need to drive everywhere in traffic jams, because more businesses could be located on levels 1 and 2 of each of the buildings, and a lot faster internet could be had for everyone at much lower prices.

Chatanooga, Tennessee, already has 1 Gigabit internet, and it doesn't quite know what to do with it. Imagine if a rebuilt highrise newyork had that. I doubt that many people would leave their apartments except to answer the door to get food/drinks.

I can't explain the sentence, I must have been trying to fit too much information into one sentence or I combined two sentences by accident.
 
2014-03-16 05:48:57 PM  
The end of the world has been coming since it formed.
 
2014-03-16 06:11:00 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: This is the product of the current line of environmental science propaganda being taught to the last few generations of college students. It's the end, wave your arms.
Be afraid. Panic. Send money.

Feh.


Is it still propaganda if ocean acidification is actually happening?
 
2014-03-16 06:16:14 PM  
This is my shocked face: -_-

We happen to live in an age where there are 7+ billion of us on earth. It hasn't always been this way. In fact, for almost all of earth's history this hasn't been the case. Anyone who thinks it's some sort of permanent status quo just isn't paying attention.
 
2014-03-16 06:19:05 PM  

Gawdzila: Precisely why we can't let The Free Market decide when we need to do things like switch away from fossil fuels.
I don't care how efficient it is, The Free Market has no idea what we should do, or what we need to do. It responds only to money.
The Free Market will happily drive us off the edge of a cliff simply because it is the most efficient way to get to the bottom of the mountain.


For better or worse, the government is its co-pilot... A government run by politicians not as interested in the best solutions as they are with getting re-elected, we're not much better off.

I don't think wind/solar are practical. (Go nuclear.) But it doesn't matter what I think; it depends on where our politicians take us. At the end of the day, when all is said and done... It's our fault, collectively. Those that are wise, didn't try hard enough. Those that are unwise, were convinced they knew better. Plenty of blame. And it won't matter at all. I hate ending on a downer, so here's a glint of hope: Or, maybe we'll get lucky like we did with the Green Revolution and technology will come to the rescue.
 
2014-03-16 06:44:13 PM  
Destructor

Nuclear has been subsidized by so many sources it's hard to tell whether it is inexpensive or not.

For example, since 1993, 10% of our total power and 50% of our nuclear power has come from Russia, in the form of enriched nuclear material.
We bought, this power at around 850million dollars/year for the equivalent of 20,000 nuclear warheads worth of materals over that 20 year period

Putin called off the deal in December and the last shipment arrived in January.
So this arrangement survived the Georgian incident, but apparently had to be stopped prior to this Crimean situation.

Anyway, if we were to increase nuclear power to 100% of energy, the rebuild and future constrution would take 25 to 35 years and under today's dollars would be close to 3 Trillion in cost, not inclusive of the fact that we would have to mine, refine, ship etc from Uzbekistan, Afghanistan/Pakistan as Canada and Australia would be running out in less than 25 years at 100% US demand or 50 years with full reprocessing.

A full Wind/Solar/Superconductive double back up solution would cost around 550 Billion, or to put that into perspecive, the entire advertised 2011 impact to the US economy of the Natural Gas/Petroleum and Coal companies combined.

Centralized power systems just don't fit efficient distribution compared to distributive network grid with diffuse but efficient technology available to us today.
 
2014-03-16 06:45:18 PM  
Cuchulane: Snip...
Unfortunately, our current capitalist economy is being largely sustained by a very large socialist endeavor - our military, which is after all a government program. snip...

I've been watching a backdoor stealth socialist economy grow and sap the strength out of the capital capitalism needs to function. You can't run a business while counterfeiters are tapping the till at eight percent a year for very long.

We didn't even get fifty years after going off of the gold standard and allowing socialism to flourish. It is so out of hand that it feels it needs to jump in a rescue businesses that had functioned through all of time.

The sad/funny thing is so many think the failure is Capitalism while they worship their stealth socialism, blind to the repercussions...

blind to the socialism itself.
 
2014-03-16 06:45:44 PM  

EdNortonsTwin: The end of the world has been coming since it formed.


The world isn't at stake. Just humanity living in any comfort.
 
2014-03-16 06:58:30 PM  

Acravius: Nuclear has been subsidized by so many sources it's hard to tell whether it is inexpensive or not.


Long story short, you can find good arguments for and against. What follows is simply MHO: If we insist on growing our population and are worried about unknowns, we have to consider arable land removed from food production, and the consequences of removing energy out of the environment (wind/solar) will have on weather. (We add 0.0001% CO2 and the climate is doomed... But extracting gigawatts of power from wind and ground heating? What possible ill effect can that have...? Interesting that that gets ZERO interest from government/media. Politics? unpossible....)

Nuclear has a much smaller footprint, and used in conjunction with reprocessing, efficient from a material point of view and is a zero carbon emitter. Cost is due in large part to NIMBY, legal, and regulatory considerations--which could be reduced/eliminated with political will. While its true, nuclear has been subsidized (partial compensation for factors mentioned), solar and wind are even more hilariously over-subsidized.
 
2014-03-16 07:17:27 PM  
Destructor

The total ground coverage of 42% efficient Gallium Arsinide solar cells is only ~150 square miles. If spread across the US in the ways that I described it would with the Superconductive loop, the width of the panelling parallel to the highways would be approximately 10 and 15ft wide, and would power the US for 16 hours a day.

The total ground coverage for the 66,000 7.5 MW turbines, while being spread in lots of 100, 660 times throughout the windiest areas in the Central United states would take up a total of around 660 square miles.

I am not against nuclear, and if it were to remain supplying base level 20% of our power today, I don't see it being a hinderance, in fact it would cut the cost of the other projects by 100-150 Billion total, down to just 400-450 Billion.
 I am just pointing out full nuclear at this point is very much less desirable in terms of implementation under today's available technology.

I also don't think that Geothermal has that much of catching on, as people in Iceland have seen blowout after blowout and minor earthquakes after seveal ambitious large scale geothermal projects have been attempted over the past 5 years.

Plus wouldn't you like to have your local energy provider be able to serve up your chemical and electrical energy as well as your clean water, and your local vertical farm's fertiliser all from a relatively small facility located within 10 miles of your town/city/metropolitan area?

These diffuse systems allow more independence from national grids, even though the grid is designed to deliver nationally, as you can start storing power locally in backup systems, which the current grid system doesn't efficiently allow for.
 
2014-03-16 07:23:09 PM  

CruJones: Why is NASA studying economics and social psychology?

And spell civilization like a real 'murican or your argument is invalid.


Isn't that the NOAA's job? Maybe the IRS, but certainly not NASA.

Mission creep is a terrible thing.
 
2014-03-16 07:37:12 PM  

incrdbil: For a Nasa study, it sounds like some freshmen college paper after their first intro to politics class, mixed with a little green eco-nut brainwashing: the solution to everything is communism, and living in the dirt in caves with primitive agricultural methods, after eliminating 'excess' population because wealth is evil.


The amount of sensationalism in the article and the actual published study:  http://www.atmos.umd.edu/~ekalnay/pubs/handy-paper-for-submission-2.p d f

would make Stalin's PR department jealous.  What's hilarious is that the fark libtard brigade eats this shiat up like candy.

1.  The study had absolutely nothing to do with NASA.  NASA issues grants to foster research.  One of the groups they issued a grant to is SESYNC (University of Maryland organization).
2. Just from visiting SESYNC's website you can tell they're pretty eco extremist.  They argue dams are killing everything (which may or may not be true).
3.  The main author of the study has published zero things prior to this study.  He's a no-name.
4. The paper's introduction is 3 pages long and arrives at its hypothesis as a conclusion before doing any real analysis.
5.  The study uses a basic predator/prey model and asserts human civilization between rich and poor classes would follow a same sine-wave predator/prey model.
6. The study's biggest flaw is that he uses no historical data to generate the model.  He essentially generates equations for how he thinks society should work with a handful of diffEQs with the variables and constraints he wants and calls it a day.  He doesn't run the model with data from the French Revolution or Roman Empire collapse or etc.

In short, it's amateur hour.
 
2014-03-16 07:44:00 PM  

Acravius: The budget for the superconductive loop project would be about $50 Billion, or ~$3.1 million per mile, but it would save ~$65 billion in coal costs per year


This is all in theory. I would like to see a pilot-plant project; something like "the University of Michigan built a superconducting loop connecting 50 university buildings and saved $BLAH in electrical generation costs" before committing to spending $LOTS on something that's pretty pie-in-the-sky.

At each of the 300 cities, you would have a 1/7 of an Olympic Size Swimming pool for electrolysis

Electrolysing water to generate hydrogen? WHAT? That only makes sense if you have a huge fark-ton of spare electricity from somewhere--which you never said anything about. It's far more efficient to do the water-gas reaction (H2O + CH4 -> CO + 3H2) if you need hydrogen. If you just need electricity, why are you involving hydrogen at all? H2 is a pain to store since it leaks through ordinary metal tanks, palladium-hydride storage is too expensive, and so forth. Keep the energy in pumped storage or batteries or hydrocarbons or something that isn't hydrogen; it'll work better that way.

I am sure there are plenty of people who would like to go from their 1200 square foot loft to a 10K square foot loft for a $300,000 price tag, get their own floor, and have only the ceiling and floor to worry about in terms of noise.

A 10,000 ft^2 apartment would have a really huge utility bill to go with it. Bias: I live in Tempe, AZ, where for 6 months/year, you need AC to keep the interior temperature at a human-tolerable level. I spent most of the rest of my life in MI, where for 6 months/year, you need a serious gas/oil/electric heater to keep the interior temperatures at a human-tolerable level.

If we made city living less low rise, and all high rise, and removed most of the sprawl, a lot less crime would take place

Citation needed. I am not a criminologist, but I'd guess that most crime happens because the criminals think they can get away with it, not because of population density. ICBW.

Chatanooga, Tennessee, already has 1 Gigabit internet, and it doesn't quite know what to do with it.

Pr0n? :-) People can find all kinds of uses for bandwidth, it's just that not all of them fit the definition of "productive". People hosting their own images or text content on their own servers would probably be a win though.
 
2014-03-16 07:48:56 PM  

Click Click D'oh: NASAs mandate is to shoot people and things into space in the name of science and conduct kick arse atmospheric research, not sociology and economics. We've got other people for that.  If NASA doesn't want to do it's job, it's time to defund them.


The government has already defunded them.  We've don't have a space program anymore, remember?  So they're taking what little money they have left, along with their scientists and computers, and finding other productive things to do with them.  Like, oh I dunno, study global impacts disaster evens, such as asteroid collisions, freak weather changes, and now - new to the list - myopic economic policies.
 
2014-03-16 08:06:34 PM  

Acravius: Destructor

The total ground coverage of 42% efficient Gallium Arsinide solar cells is only ~150 square miles. If spread across the US in the ways that I described it would with the Superconductive loop, the width of the panelling parallel to the highways would be approximately 10 and 15ft wide, and would power the US for 16 hours a day.

The total ground coverage for the 66,000 7.5 MW turbines, while being spread in lots of 100, 660 times throughout the windiest areas in the Central United states would take up a total of around 660 square miles.


I know what nuclear is. But I don't know what wind and solar are. I am very skeptical especially about cost. So much of the cost of these things is calculated in terms of credits and tax incentives (which in terms of societal cost, are illusionary). Consider, land use, inevitable cost of Ga As cost increases, cleanup (in the Western world) of pollution from mining/refining. Cleanup of Rare earths necessary for turbines. Durability/replacement of both in severe weather, unforeseen environmental factors (mentioned earlier). Peaker/deficit issues... Plus, your introducing extra unknowns like the Superconductive loop (can it cost effectively handle the current load? Would it quench if there was a large CME? And that's just off the top of my head). Don't get me wrong. I'm sure Top Men have thought about this sort of thing. But that is much different from being proven in the field. Nuclear is a known. The other stuff? To some extent, sure. But not with a trial by fire.
 
2014-03-16 08:07:52 PM  

RedVentrue: CruJones: Why is NASA studying economics and social psychology?

And spell civilization like a real 'murican or your argument is invalid.

Isn't that the NOAA's job? Maybe the IRS, but certainly not NASA.

Mission creep is a terrible thing.


It was posited up-thread that it's not actually NASA's study, but something that some other group extrapolated from NASA's actual work.

Article says NASA funded it, which could have been a relatively small amount.

FTA:
A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center...
[...]
The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists.


Basically, it's a bunch of fuzzy "sciences" using their benefactor to sound more legitimate.  It is kind of amazing what you can convince people to spend money for you to "research".

I don't mean to make it sound like bullshiat, but it is, in a way.  I mean, it's more than somewhat obvious, as many posters have mentioned.  Didn't really need much of a study or research.

patagoniantoothfish: But don't worry - NASA have also recorded a series of cryptic messages that we can open at various stages of the collapse to help guide us through various crises and thus shorten the period of darkness and chaos.


The foundation books were a decent read, if ludicrous in principle.
 
2014-03-16 08:33:19 PM  

nickerj1: 2. Just from visiting SESYNC's website you can tell they're pretty eco extremist.  They argue dams are killing everything (which may or may not be true).


Wait a sec... all accusation of amateurism aside, you're saying that their criticism of dam systems "may or may not be true," but allows you to dismiss them as extremists in either case. How does that work?
 
2014-03-16 08:36:18 PM  
Not that we shouldn't be doing more to combat inequality and climate change, but mathematical models that take sociological, economic, and planetary environmental changes into account are, individually, very difficult to do or produce even remotely accurate predictions.  All of these together AND forecasting forward half a century...I'll just take this with a Hope Diamond sized grain of salt.
 
2014-03-16 08:42:07 PM  

Cuchulane: StokeyBob: Cuchulane: StokeyBob: I'm not sure if it would help stop an industrial collapse but I'm pretty sure stopping the fake money presses would help reel in government agency's and corral them back in to their jurisdictions...

bring jobs back.

All money is inherently fake, even when it's based on useless lumps of yellow metal. It's as real as we universally agree it is.It's not a problem unless you get a bunch of uneducated idiots elected to government that don't understand world economies and do everything they can to undermine our countries good credit. All because they think world governments run like personal checking accounts.
Unfortunately, one of the core functions of capitalism is to destroy jobs and lower purchasing power in it's eternal motive to reduce costs. It's inherently self destructive.

Capitalism shouldn't be sold out to socialism by those that have no money, borrowing from those that have none, and transferring the debt over to an unsuspecting public through inflation and bonded servitude.

It's a mistake to think that it can only be one it the other. History shows the inevitable circle of unchecked capitalism destroying the very customer base that supports it, leading to rampant income inequality, followed by revolution and imposed over reaching socialism that destroys new growth, that leads to unchecked capitalism, and so on, and so on...
Long term sustainability has always been the result of a marriage of the two in check and balance. When capitalism destroys one segment through innovation, cost cutting, or manipulation, socialism kicks in to hold things together until capitalism can create a replacement segment. At some point the balance leaves some segments solely to the purview of socialism where there is no recognition of the types of short term profits that capitalism thrives on, but also cannot be sustained in the long term without.
Unfortunately, our current capitalist economy is being largely sustained by a very large socialist ...


www.political-humor.org
 
2014-03-16 08:45:27 PM  

TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.


http://nassimtaleb.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/turkey.png
 
2014-03-16 08:55:24 PM  
Coming from NASA's Goddard means about as much these days as the Nobel Peace Prize has bearing on peace.
 
2014-03-16 09:15:30 PM  

BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

http://nassimtaleb.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/turkey.png


Feel free to spend your days fretting the sh*t out of yourself while waiting for the End of the World then, putz. I've been around long enough to see the same old song & dance from these Chicken Littles, most of whom have an agenda to make money or fame from their bullsh*t.
 
2014-03-16 09:31:56 PM  

Acravius: A full Wind/Solar/Superconductive double back up solution would cost around 550 Billion, or to put that into perspecive, the entire advertised 2011 impact to the US economy of the Natural Gas/Petroleum and Coal companies combined.


Also known as 13% of the cost of the Iraq war....
 
2014-03-16 09:35:34 PM  

Chronomorte: NASA used to be about space.  If it's going to turn in to (or has already become) yet another PC entity doing uninteresting stuff that others could do, then how about closing it down.  I'll miss it, but seeing it wither away into a global political mission is nauseating.


Right, because this one study (did you even bother to look into why Goddard helped fund it?) and providing scientific information about the global climate that's actually part of its core mission are clear indications that NASA is a "PC entity doing uninteresting stuff that others could do."

Your intellect is remarkable.
 
2014-03-16 10:35:22 PM  
mr lawson: wealthy do not consume too much. They consume too little as a percentage of income and wealth.

Which is why they're dying out.  Won't someone help the wealthy?
 
2014-03-16 10:37:35 PM  

TV's Vinnie: BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

http://nassimtaleb.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/turkey.png

Feel free to spend your days fretting the sh*t out of yourself while waiting for the End of the World then, putz. I've been around long enough to see the same old song & dance from these Chicken Littles, most of whom have an agenda to make money or fame from their bullsh*t.


Yeah, I'm sure lower-level NASA scientists do it for the fame.

We'll see if you're a Vinnie-style tough guy when society crumbles.  People said they didn't see the World Wars coming either, but even those events didn't threaten to turn civilization back to subsistence farming.
 
2014-03-16 10:38:41 PM  

big pig peaches: NASA funded? Um, no. Some idiots doing a study based on a NASA model.
Society didn't collapse after the fall of Rome; it just changed. And it will again.


And it keeps getting funnier and FUNNIER every time you say that.
 
2014-03-16 10:39:47 PM  

BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

http://nassimtaleb.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/turkey.png


I hope to never eat a 1001 day old turkey.
 
2014-03-16 10:43:28 PM  

StokeyBob: blind to the socialism itself.


Just for grins, name the 5 largest socialist countries.
 
2014-03-16 10:51:34 PM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: If we could only cook up a nice pandemic.  Take out about 75% of the population on the planet.  Things wouldn't be so bad then.

Somebody get George Orr on the phone and let him take a nap.  Whisper sweet nothings in his ear....

[i1.ytimg.com image 480x360]

/Lathe Of Heaven


Bless you and Oliver Plunkett!  I've been trying to remember the name of that book-and particularly the film-for months.  Perhaps now I'll get a decent nights sleep.
 
2014-03-16 10:56:25 PM  

BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

http://nassimtaleb.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/turkey.png

Feel free to spend your days fretting the sh*t out of yourself while waiting for the End of the World then, putz. I've been around long enough to see the same old song & dance from these Chicken Littles, most of whom have an agenda to make money or fame from their bullsh*t.

Yeah, I'm sure lower-level NASA scientists do it for the fame.

We'll see if you're a Vinnie-style tough guy when society crumbles.  People said they didn't see the World Wars coming either, but even those events didn't threaten to turn civilization back to subsistence farming.


I think it's going to be far more likely we'll both be in our 90's and crapping our Depends, while I smirk at you from across the bingo hall.
 
2014-03-16 11:08:22 PM  

mr lawson: Gunther: Elites eventually consume too much

see...that right there is one of the arguments i have against this study. Wealthy do not consume too much. They consume too little as a percentage of income and wealth.


Yes, there are reasons why other societies have collapsed, and there are reasons why various societies today might collapse, but this is not one of them.

the Elites eventually consume too much, resulting in a famine among Commoners that eventually causes the collapse of society.

We're not in a "Type-L" collapse because we don't have a true global economy. It's possible that America could suffer as a result of other nations collapsing; but overall within our own borders, we don't have a Type-L structure yet.
 
2014-03-16 11:11:05 PM  

upload.wikimedia.org
The man who pretty much single-handedly made the destruction of civilization inevitable?


He certainly affected the entire atmosphere of the planet (for the worse) more than any organism ever to exist on said planet.

 
2014-03-16 11:14:18 PM  
Destructor

The 7.5 MW turbines cost 13 million Euros each, no tax credits, no waivers, no nothing.
They do not use rare-earth magnets, they simply use induction coils.
There is no gearing or oil crank boxes like the GE 1.5S to burn out or catch on fire.
They weigh 13,500 tons, and can continue to generate electricity up to 100 miles per hour, and can survive EF 4 and EF5 tornadic and Category 4 Hurricane sustained winds without damage. They have been recorded to overproduce up to 9 MW without damage to the coils.

These exist today, and 15 have been installed since 2010, and orders of another 135 have been made, for Australia and Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon_E-126
http://www.enercon.de/en-en/66.htm


Here is the most recent information on Ga Arsenide thin films

http://www.gizmag.com/stacked-solar-cell-gallium-arsenide-film/29006 /

danceswithwolves

There really is no need for studies, since we know that 20+% of energy is lost due to heat in long distance transmission lines today, and it is significantly higher in high heat settings, so in the summer heat loss could be as high as 40%, but let's keep it simple at 22.5%
http://electricalnotes.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/total-losses-in-powe r- distribution-transmission-lines-part-1/

Yes the entire plan described is a double capacity system that does 100% wind and 150% solar connected to the superconductive grid.

If hydrogen is too hard to handle, then perhaps localized loops at each distribution node could hold excess capacity in case the local grid section goes down for whatever reason.

Today's internal heating and cooling systems, plus insulation with Aerogel or similar products and electro based tinting/light diffusion/window shading and the fact that there is no roof to heat/cool on the 29-49 floors depending on height can really help maintain temperature. In addition conduit piping going all the way from the basement to the top floor can help to radiate 60 degree air up through the building passively to keep the building much cooler/warmer than the ambient temperature of the outside air, essentially everything starts at 60 degrees, and can be cooled/heated from that point. Think of an indoor swimming pool building, which at most locations are roughly 30,000 cubic feet. However heating the building to 77 degrees with a good H-Vac system and Huge Ass Fans TM, can keep that enviroment very stable with heat run times as low as 5 minutes per hour.
In UAE they built a 50 story South Facing continuous stone facade that reflects heat, and cuts energy usage by 70% compared to other buildings, so yes there is a great deal of good building insulation and design that can keep the building from being a heat trap/icebox.
Finally what could be described as the ugliest building ever, but also the greenest building in the world as of 2012, which tried to be everything self-sufficient including a bio-fuel reactor in the basement, and full water recycling in the same facilty is Pixel
http://www.gbca.org.au/green-star/green-building-case-studies/pixel/

I don't want every building to be as efficient, because it doesn't really have to be, but if 20% of all building concepts are incorporated into the rebuild of work and living space, and the other infrastructure's mentioned in my other posts, were to be implemented, cities would be fantastically low emission points and people would get a great deal more enjoyment out of their work and living spaces in the high rise environment.

Most crimes are of convenience or situational. If all living quarters began on the third floor, and there were only one way in, and two ways out with secured and monitored entrance/exit ways convenience would be decreased, and if most of the areas depressed were now removed and everyone was accommodated with good separated housing, with ground level and second level foot traffic monitored and security personnel within a block or 2 at the farthest, situational conditions would also be greatly reduced.
So literally crime would be reduced to very targeted activity in very personal situations. i.e Singapore in 2012 - 29 murders in a city of 5.2 Million. 4 of them by the state, 2 drug traffickers and 2 Murderers

http://www.justice.govt.nz/justice-sector/drivers-of-crime/publicati on s-and-background-information/documents/spb-theories-on-the-causes-of-c rime

As to Chatanooga, it's the city that installed it as part of a grant project from the TARP money in 2008, and so that is question they are asking, and they are trying to attract businesses that use data transmission to set up shop. The problem is that the infrastructure outside of Chatanooga is 1/100th the speed so anything going out runs into that limitation. So Los Alamos and Chatanooga are tied for the fastest Internet in the US.
 
2014-03-16 11:20:13 PM  

TV's Vinnie: BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

http://nassimtaleb.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/turkey.png

Feel free to spend your days fretting the sh*t out of yourself while waiting for the End of the World then, putz. I've been around long enough to see the same old song & dance from these Chicken Littles, most of whom have an agenda to make money or fame from their bullsh*t.

Yeah, I'm sure lower-level NASA scientists do it for the fame.

We'll see if you're a Vinnie-style tough guy when society crumbles.  People said they didn't see the World Wars coming either, but even those events didn't threaten to turn civilization back to subsistence farming.

I think it's going to be far more likely we'll both be in our 90's and crapping our Depends, while I smirk at you from across the bingo hall.


People always underestimate the speed with which crises expand. I'm a bore about this but Pakistan has nukes and has been one of the countries already hard hit by climate change. They also have a large, organized Islamist opposition. The general line about climate change is to look at the weather it will produce or the sea level changes. Yes, bad, but terrible sea level change is a couple of hundred years away (unless you're Bangladesh.) What we need to to worry about are the political stresses: climate change breeds mass migrations.
 
2014-03-16 11:21:42 PM  

COMALite J: [upload.wikimedia.org image 220x343]
The man who pretty much single-handedly made the destruction of civilization inevitable?


That isn't Thomas Newcomen.
 
2014-03-16 11:35:04 PM  

yakmans_dad: StokeyBob: blind to the socialism itself.

Just for grins, name the 5 largest socialist countries.


I Googled up a list of 10 for you.

China
Denmark
Finland
Netherlands
Canada
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
New Zealand
Belgium


The only one that really concerns me at the moment is the United States of America.

The central bank we have has slowly, like a frog in a pot of boiling water, shifted all of our capitalist enterprise and other government agencies over to a socialist system.

Banking is broken in both directions. Not only does it not pay enough to keep up with inflation trying to save in one, if you had a lot of real hard earned money you couldn't compete with the central banks and their loaning what they don't have. You would lose your real assets. They, if the made a bad loan, would bail themselves out and stiff you and your friends with the bill for it all.

Student loans have been taken over.

Home loans taken over.

Heath-care. I think we all know where that is going.

The military may not be the defensive military we all seem to pride ourselves of having. It seems to have been co-opted by the central banks to install new central banks networked to the global system. I heard once that there were only seven countries without a central bank tied in with the global network. The list had Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya on it then. Now I think it is down to Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and Cuba.

The auto industry was big at one time. It too needed help under all of the pressure of the back door stealth socialism.

Then while we are on your list, how many of the countries on it have been given loans from our central bank, behind our back, shifting more inflation our way and sucking the capital out of the capital, capitalism needs to operate?
 
2014-03-16 11:55:15 PM  
No mater what, you can always eat people.
 
2014-03-17 12:16:06 AM  
1) technology growth and population growth are incompatible, at least in a capitalist system.  As the efficiency of technology grows, the number of workers required decreases.  Thus there becomes less demand for workers over time.  If population continues growing at a comparable rate to technology, the diminished demand coupled with increased supply of potential workers will result in lower wages, less employment, and overall discontent amongst the perpetually growing lower class.  Eventually the poor will make up for in numbers and emotion what the wealthy have in materials/fiat currency and the system will be toppled and need to start over.  An optimist might consider it 2 steps forward and 1 step back where we eventually learn from our mistakes.

2) resources are finite. For a given average quality of life, there is a set amount of physical resources required.  This changes as a function of the technology set of a given civilization.  For instance the technology at the time of the ancient Greeks would never be able to support the present modern world population of 7+ billion.  Regardless of technology, however, at some point we are limited by sheer raw material availability and energy flux from the sun.  Supposing 100% efficiency, there would still be some upper bound on the human population for a given quality of life (and supposing some minimal ethical quality of life).
 
2014-03-17 01:47:00 AM  

SheltemDragon: These types of studies are simultaneous important and hard to take seriously.

People have been screaming about the impending collapse of civilization forever, and western model civilization since at least Mathus. Yes, current resource exploitation and wealth distribution has some serious problems, but its the most efficient model we have come up with. Hell, Globalization is actually retarding any collapse by wounding the top end economies to bleed manufacturing of all things into poorer, marginal economies and raising their standards of living. As a long term "civilization" protection strategy it was an amazing feat of social engineering to sell it to those who would be hurt by it in the short term.

This isn't to say that we don't have some *serious* points of weakness. "Just in Time" manufacturing is really "Just wanting for a large enough disaster to take us out". Our capacity to rebuild critical infrastructure in the event of a wide spread global scale disaster is fairly non-existent. Companies and nations just don't keep large stockpiles of parts and materials on hand anymore. Wealth stratification is also kicking us in the pants, but that something that can be reversed easily any number of ways if the will / fear can be gathered in the elites to provide more then bread and circuses. In any case, half our problem (in the western world) is that we are approaching a efficiency level that simply cannot employ everyone . Enough goods are produced, food grown, and resourced gotten with a minimal amount of labor that the "Everyone needs and should work to survive" model is starting to crack.


Hence why its about time we had a Utopia.  Why when a few of us can make cool machines should EVERYONE HAVE to work to survive?  Maybe its time we perfected the system - allow all people to work for a living wage, but make that work only 25 hours a week.  The rest of the time we could be leisure time - the original "good life."  Continuing with an unsustainable system is silly, why wait until it breaks when instead we can remodel it along more egalitarian/utopian lines?
 
2014-03-17 02:35:07 AM  
I've been stockpiling bottlecaps and ammo, so screw you guys.
 
2014-03-17 02:51:14 AM  

Nemo's Brother: What I don't understand is why any of you greenies are using a computer for recration purposes? You are being beyond wasteful and selfish and should cease doing so immediately. GTFO


I gotta wonder what is the opposite of greenies (even though I know you are being sarcastic/trollie) - is it suicidies, or maybe blowupies.  How can anyone be anti-green?  We live on this beautiful Earth/Gaia/Tosev3, how could anyone be stupid enough not to respect HER?!
 
2014-03-17 06:37:59 AM  

CruJones: Why is NASA studying economics and social psychology?

And spell civilization like a real 'murican or your argument is invalid.


That's what I want to know also. NASA has no more business studying economics than the CDC does studying gun violence.
 
2014-03-17 08:48:12 AM  

StokeyBob: yakmans_dad: StokeyBob: blind to the socialism itself.

Just for grins, name the 5 largest socialist countries.

I Googled up a list of 10 for you.

China
Denmark
Finland
Netherlands
Canada
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
New Zealand
Belgium


The only one that really concerns me at the moment is the United States of America


And so you're worried about socialism? Because when I think of Finland, Sweden, and Denmark ,.. I  sure imagine the frightened hordes of Finns, Swedes, and Danes yearning  to breathe free. Yup.
 
2014-03-17 10:44:26 AM  
b.thumbs.redditmedia.com
 
2014-03-17 10:46:04 AM  

yakmans_dad: StokeyBob: blind to the socialism itself.

Just for grins, name the 5 largest socialist countries.


In terms of land area? Or in terms of "most socialist"?
 
2014-03-17 11:07:12 AM  

Ricardo Klement: yakmans_dad: StokeyBob: blind to the socialism itself.

Just for grins, name the 5 largest socialist countries.

In terms of land area? Or in terms of "most socialist"?


I was thinking ... nothing really. Just expecting Sweden to pop up. And -- ta da -- all the Scandinavians showed. Rain on the desert.
 
2014-03-17 11:13:59 AM  

yakmans_dad: StokeyBob: yakmans_dad: StokeyBob: blind to the socialism itself.

Just for grins, name the 5 largest socialist countries.

I Googled up a list of 10 for you.

China
Denmark
Finland
Netherlands
Canada
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
New Zealand
Belgium


The only one that really concerns me at the moment is the United States of America

And so you're worried about socialism? Because when I think of Finland, Sweden, and Denmark ,.. I  sure imagine the frightened hordes of Finns, Swedes, and Danes yearning  to breathe free. Yup.


Their breathing is just fine, they have good healthcare.
USA, not so much.
 
2014-03-17 11:17:14 AM  

yakmans_dad: TV's Vinnie: BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

http://nassimtaleb.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/turkey.png

Feel free to spend your days fretting the sh*t out of yourself while waiting for the End of the World then, putz. I've been around long enough to see the same old song & dance from these Chicken Littles, most of whom have an agenda to make money or fame from their bullsh*t.

Yeah, I'm sure lower-level NASA scientists do it for the fame.

We'll see if you're a Vinnie-style tough guy when society crumbles.  People said they didn't see the World Wars coming either, but even those events didn't threaten to turn civilization back to subsistence farming.

I think it's going to be far more likely we'll both be in our 90's and crapping our Depends, while I smirk at you from across the bingo hall.

People always underestimate the speed with which crises expand. I'm a bore about this but Pakistan has nukes and has been one of the countries already hard hit by climate change. They also have a large, organized Islamist opposition. The general line about climate change is to look at the weather it will produce or the sea level changes. Yes, bad, but terrible sea level change is a couple of hundred years away (unless you're Bangladesh.) What we need to to worry about are the political stresses: climate change breeds mass migrations.


I am willing to bet the "nukes" do not work all that well.
Maintenance is a miserable biatch and horribly expensive.
 
2014-03-17 11:33:20 AM  

Cuchulane: StokeyBob: Cuchulane: StokeyBob: I'm not sure if it would help stop an industrial collapse but I'm pretty sure stopping the fake money presses would help reel in government agency's and corral them back in to their jurisdictions...

bring jobs back.

All money is inherently fake, even when it's based on useless lumps of yellow metal. It's as real as we universally agree it is.It's not a problem unless you get a bunch of uneducated idiots elected to government that don't understand world economies and do everything they can to undermine our countries good credit. All because they think world governments run like personal checking accounts.
Unfortunately, one of the core functions of capitalism is to destroy jobs and lower purchasing power in it's eternal motive to reduce costs. It's inherently self destructive.

Capitalism shouldn't be sold out to socialism by those that have no money, borrowing from those that have none, and transferring the debt over to an unsuspecting public through inflation and bonded servitude.

It's a mistake to think that it can only be one it the other. History shows the inevitable circle of unchecked capitalism destroying the very customer base that supports it, leading to rampant income inequality, followed by revolution and imposed over reaching socialism that destroys new growth, that leads to unchecked capitalism, and so on, and so on...
Long term sustainability has always been the result of a marriage of the two in check and balance. When capitalism destroys one segment through innovation, cost cutting, or manipulation, socialism kicks in to hold things together until capitalism can create a replacement segment. At some point the balance leaves some segments solely to the purview of socialism where there is no recognition of the types of short term profits that capitalism thrives on, but also cannot be sustained in the long term without.
Unfortunately, our current capitalist economy is being largely sustained by a very large socialist endeavor - our military, which is after all a government program. Because left to its own, the last thing a good capitalist wants to do is create jobs. Jobs cut into profits.


History shows that unchecked communism collapses in mere decades once they run out of rich people to shoot and intellectuals to work to death in gulags, and the proles decide "this better way" isn't as good as having shoes that fit.
 
2014-03-17 11:41:31 AM  

Gyrfalcon: We're not in a "Type-L" collapse because we don't have a true global economy. It's possible that America could suffer as a result of other nations collapsing; but overall within our own borders, we don't have a Type-L structure yet.


Maybe not, but we're going to L.

/get it?
//Yes, I should have used the obvious tag.
///subby
 
2014-03-17 11:42:25 AM  

snocone: yakmans_dad: TV's Vinnie: BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: BolshyGreatYarblocks: TV's Vinnie: I've been hearing this doom & gloom since the early 70's, and yet we're still here, and there's still plenty of Big Macs to go around.

http://nassimtaleb.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/turkey.png

Feel free to spend your days fretting the sh*t out of yourself while waiting for the End of the World then, putz. I've been around long enough to see the same old song & dance from these Chicken Littles, most of whom have an agenda to make money or fame from their bullsh*t.

Yeah, I'm sure lower-level NASA scientists do it for the fame.

We'll see if you're a Vinnie-style tough guy when society crumbles.  People said they didn't see the World Wars coming either, but even those events didn't threaten to turn civilization back to subsistence farming.

I think it's going to be far more likely we'll both be in our 90's and crapping our Depends, while I smirk at you from across the bingo hall.

People always underestimate the speed with which crises expand. I'm a bore about this but Pakistan has nukes and has been one of the countries already hard hit by climate change. They also have a large, organized Islamist opposition. The general line about climate change is to look at the weather it will produce or the sea level changes. Yes, bad, but terrible sea level change is a couple of hundred years away (unless you're Bangladesh.) What we need to to worry about are the political stresses: climate change breeds mass migrations.

I am willing to bet the "nukes" do not work all that well.
Maintenance is a miserable biatch and horribly expensive.


Well, you couldn't "pay up" if you lost the bet, so your willingness doesn't mean much. I know you're using a figure of speech for "confidence" but that kind of confidence is as misplaced as it's endemic.
 
2014-03-17 11:47:16 AM  

Langdon_777: Nemo's Brother: What I don't understand is why any of you greenies are using a computer for recration purposes? You are being beyond wasteful and selfish and should cease doing so immediately. GTFO

I gotta wonder what is the opposite of greenies (even though I know you are being sarcastic/trollie) - is it suicidies, or maybe blowupies.  How can anyone be anti-green?  We live on this beautiful Earth/Gaia/Tosev3, how could anyone be stupid enough not to respect HER?!


Ask corazon Santiago or chairman yang about the mindworm boils.
 
2014-03-17 03:31:54 PM  

neversubmit: [b.thumbs.redditmedia.com image 850x531]


Zombie apocalypse, or Machine Head mosh pit?

Only they know for sure...
 
2014-03-17 05:39:15 PM  
So, since the Population Bomb nonsense in the 1970s burned out, and MMGW is burning out, they figure that combining the two scams they can maybe get away with it.  Personally, I think that after presenting him with the Trofim Lysenko award, Paul R. Ehrlich should have been put in prison until his fantasies come to pass.  With his cellmate being James E. Hansen.
 
2014-03-17 08:41:57 PM  

yakmans_dad: StokeyBob: yakmans_dad: StokeyBob: blind to the socialism itself.

Just for grins, name the 5 largest socialist countries.

I Googled up a list of 10 for you.

China
Denmark
Finland
Netherlands
Canada
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
New Zealand
Belgium


The only one that really concerns me at the moment is the United States of America

And so you're worried about socialism? Because when I think of Finland, Sweden, and Denmark ,.. I  sure imagine the frightened hordes of Finns, Swedes, and Danes yearning  to breathe free. Yup.


Our back door stealth socialism isn't bringing their kind of socialism. It is shuffling us all out of our everything.

Lots of people are already out of their homes and jobs.

Some wonder if there is any gold in Fort Knox. Others are wondering, if anything is there, do we still own it.

We are systematically losing control of our natural resources.

We are being shuffled out of our public lands. Roads and places we used to be able to park are disappearing leaving pay lots controlled by private companies.

Even land people own outright are having rules of use placed on them that virtually steals their land.

It is a global problem.

With the central banks set up the way they are, no matter how much hard earned honest money the, We The People, can come up with to build their world the way they want, others, inside and outside of their countries can fire up the fake money presses and print up what ever it takes to get their way.
 
2014-03-17 09:02:11 PM  
A lot of Fark IndependentsTM in this thread.
 
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