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(Yahoo)   Putin begins his liberation of villages neighboring the Crimea from non-Russian control   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 206
    More: Obvious, Crimean, Russians, Ukraine, Russian control, Russian forces, East-West, helicopter gunships, Long-distance track event  
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4526 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Mar 2014 at 6:01 PM (22 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-15 10:48:14 PM
i.imgur.com

Ain't nobody got time for for dat!
 
2014-03-15 10:49:31 PM

udhq: ciberido: Maybe. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe there's all kinds of relevant information I don't have. Maybe I'd plunge the world into World War III, and maybe it's a good thing I'm not in change.

A world war in starting in Crimea right now would be an existential threat to exactly 2 groups of people:  those actually in Crimea, and Russians.  To everybody else, it would be more like Iraq2 than WW2.

In fact, I don't think you could even call it "World War 3", because Russia may not have a single ally in the conflict.


Biggie China.  Had and agreement since day one. What it's worth??  But I gotta say, it would be a nice time for China to grab a few islands
 
2014-03-15 10:49:39 PM

uber humper: It's also why the world didn't end sometime during the cold war.


Well, that and the fact that the USSR couldn't afford to buy bread.  But sure, Reagan.
 
2014-03-15 10:55:24 PM

Mentat: uber humper: It's also why the world didn't end sometime during the cold war.

Well, that and the fact that the USSR couldn't afford to buy bread.  But sure, Reagan.


They had to keep up with the mighty US. That ran them into the ground. The would not have had to spend all that dough on missiles if Obama where prez.Garry Kasparov said the other day he would still be a Soviet citizen if Obama were president instead of Regan.
 
2014-03-15 10:55:55 PM
.find_in_page{background-color:#ffff00 !important;padding:0px;margin:0px;overflow:visible !important;}.findysel{background-color:#ff9632 !important;padding:0px;margin:0px;overflow:visible !important;}Nutsac_Jim:

Ukraine was picking its noise.  Georgia was mid scale military action into  Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same.   Keep saying it, though.  Dubya and Georgia  Dubya and Georgia   Maybe even a few retards will believe it.


So if Canadian separatists seized 20% of Montana and the Montana and ND national guard mobilised to regain control of the territory you believe they deserve a spanking from Canadian forces because...

To be honest, Russia entered Georgia and US did nothing because Sjakasvili was a wee bit of a loon and Georgia is in central asia and noone cares. Ukraine is in Europe but Putin tried the same thing here, bolstered by the non response from Georgia invasion by Bush administration.

What people seem to not get is that Putin has just signed his exit papers, sure Crimea will most likely be Russian from now on but when economic sanctions start the Putin supporters with money in Cyprys, UK, Switzerland etc will turn on Kremlin like milk on a hot day.

Eastern Europe has tried for years to get away from Russian gas dependencies and this will probably get the EU to provide the needed funding to do that. Putin's other dreams of a eastern EU dominated by Russia is also gone, even Kazakstan is not moving away from Russia and that is a huge loss for Putin.

In effect, the best thing for Obama to do is what he is doing, starting sabre rattling like some people want will only provide Putin with the "external threat" he needs to hang on to power.

Kudos to the Ukrainian gov't that is doing everything rigth with non violent resistance and reliance on EU and US moral support.

Obama has done things right so far.
 
2014-03-15 11:00:48 PM

eurotrash: Obama has done things right so far.


That's what Putin said
 
2014-03-15 11:00:53 PM

uber humper: Biggie China. Had and agreement since day one. What it's worth?? But I gotta say, it would be a nice time for China to grab a few islands


Yeah, China is such a good friend to Russia that they abstained from voting against the resolution of condemnation at the UNSC.

There is just not a credible Axis here to take on the rest of the world.
 
2014-03-15 11:02:41 PM

udhq: uber humper: Biggie China. Had and agreement since day one. What it's worth?? But I gotta say, it would be a nice time for China to grab a few islands

Yeah, China is such a good friend to Russia that they abstained from voting against the resolution of condemnation at the UNSC.

There is just not a credible Axis here to take on the rest of the world.


Would it have benefit anyone if they had voted against the resolution or was it moot?
 
2014-03-15 11:05:46 PM
2.bp.blogspot.com

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.
 
2014-03-15 11:06:18 PM

uber humper: They had to keep up with the mighty US. That ran them into the ground. The would not have had to spend all that dough on missiles if Obama where prez.Garry Kasparov said the other day he would still be a Soviet citizen if Obama were president instead of Regan.


The USSR could have matched US military spending, even at double Reagan's Star Wars rates had Saudi Arabia not chosen to go after their share of the global petroleum market.
 
2014-03-15 11:06:44 PM

eurotrash: So if Canadian separatists seized 20% of Montana and the Montana and ND national guard mobilised to regain control of the territory you believe they deserve a spanking from Canadian forces because...


There are Canadian Separatists in Montana?  How many... two?
 
2014-03-15 11:12:58 PM

real_headhoncho: eurotrash: So if Canadian separatists seized 20% of Montana and the Montana and ND national guard mobilised to regain control of the territory you believe they deserve a spanking from Canadian forces because...

There are Canadian Separatists in Montana?  How many... two?


well since it's Montana it would probably only take one, but hey way to miss the point!
 
2014-03-15 11:14:23 PM

eurotrash: real_headhoncho: eurotrash: So if Canadian separatists seized 20% of Montana and the Montana and ND national guard mobilised to regain control of the territory you believe they deserve a spanking from Canadian forces because...

There are Canadian Separatists in Montana?  How many... two?

well since it's Montana it would probably only take one, but hey way to miss the point!


Why the hell would Canada want Montana?
 
2014-03-15 11:16:44 PM

uber humper: eurotrash: Obama has done things right so far.

That's what Putin said


just out of curiosity, what do you think US should have done that hasn't been done, I'll camp here for the response.
 
2014-03-15 11:18:26 PM

uber humper: Would it have benefit anyone if they had voted against the resolution or was it moot?


Like you keep insisting, appearances do matter.
 
2014-03-15 11:19:43 PM

udhq: uber humper: They had to keep up with the mighty US. That ran them into the ground. The would not have had to spend all that dough on missiles if Obama where prez.Garry Kasparov said the other day he would still be a Soviet citizen if Obama were president instead of Regan.

The USSR could have matched US military spending, even at double Reagan's Star Wars rates had Saudi Arabia not chosen to go after their share of the global petroleum market.


really? Their economy always sucked. Soviets never broke 40% of US GDP. Shortages in everything since Lenin

akarlin.com
 
2014-03-15 11:22:29 PM

udhq: uber humper: Would it have benefit anyone if they had voted against the resolution or was it moot?

Like you keep insisting, appearances do matter.


Tell them we will bomb airbases if they invade. But that wouldn't work for Obama, he wouldn't be believed so it would start a war. If a strong man were to say that, Putin would fold because he cannot survive an attack. They don't compare to us in the least, technology wise.  Chutzpah, they have.
 
2014-03-15 11:27:57 PM

eurotrash: uber humper: eurotrash: Obama has done things right so far.

That's what Putin said

just out of curiosity, what do you think US should have done that hasn't been done, I'll camp here for the response.



Sorry for the repeat, replied to the wrong message

Tell them we will bomb airbases if they invade. But that wouldn't work for Obama, he wouldn't be believed so it would start a war. If a strong man were to say that, Putin would fold because he cannot survive an attack. They don't compare to us in the least, technology wise.  Chutzpah, they have.
 
2014-03-15 11:28:23 PM

uber humper: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 554x730]

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.


Do you write bumper stickers for a living, dude?
 
2014-03-15 11:29:29 PM

uber humper: Tell them we will bomb airbases if they invade. But that wouldn't work for Obama, he wouldn't be believed so it would start a war. If a strong man were to say that, Putin would fold because he cannot survive an attack. They don't compare to us in the least, technology wise. Chutzpah, they have.


Oh, so Obama makes a threat and then Putin folds?  You mean EXACTLY what happened in Syria?
 
2014-03-15 11:31:30 PM

Keith Dudemeister: uber humper: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 554x730]

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.

Do you write bumper stickers for a living, dude?


No, but I could put that on cafepress.

Don't think I would have any orders from the DC area, though.
 
2014-03-15 11:31:39 PM
Can someone please explain why we cannot extend temporary "trial" or "probationary" status to the government of Ukraine? Have their parliament apply for a temporary evaluation membership with temporary protection through Article 5 on a limited 3 month term renewable contract as long as their military agrees to coordinate with NATO advisers as far as their actions? Write the contract where NATO is allowed temporary access to Ukraininan territory on a council reviewed basis. Give NATO the option to intervene legally for the protection of Ukrainian sovereignty during this trial period.
 
2014-03-15 11:35:45 PM

udhq: uber humper: Tell them we will bomb airbases if they invade. But that wouldn't work for Obama, he wouldn't be believed so it would start a war. If a strong man were to say that, Putin would fold because he cannot survive an attack. They don't compare to us in the least, technology wise. Chutzpah, they have.

Oh, so Obama makes a threat and then Putin folds?  You mean EXACTLY what happened in Syria?


You're confused, holmes. Putin said for America not to get involved, and America didn't.

Putin's op-ed http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from - russia-on-syria.html?smid=fb-share&_r=1&;

I gotta get to bed. Have a good evening.
 
2014-03-15 11:39:00 PM

uber humper: You're confused, holmes. Putin said for America not to get involved, and America didn't.


Except for when Obama shot an angry look, and Putin's client state unilaterally disarmed, with the only condition being "Please, Mr. Obama, don't hurt us."

Night, man.
 
2014-03-15 11:40:35 PM

Nutsac_Jim: flexflint: Nutsac_Jim: Mentat: Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.

Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.

Enlighten us into how Putin tricked Georgia into invading Tskhinvali.

You're saying Georgia invaded Russia unprovoked?

Is  Tskhinvali  Russia?


No. Just like Crimea, South Ossetia was wanting to separate from Georgia and possibly join Russia. However unlike Ukraine which sat idilly by, Georgia sent in their military which resulted in Georgia sending in theirs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War

So the two are very similar except with one difference. Ukraine didn't blink like Georgia did.
 
2014-03-15 11:43:52 PM

uber humper: Regan or Maggie? Putin would probably would back down. Those guys would lay down the law, make unequivocal statements that they would stand behind.


I know people like to think that these two made any difference but they really didn't. The USSR dissolved due to internal issues moreso than anything these two pinheads said.
 
2014-03-15 11:44:29 PM

Nutsac_Jim: flexflint: Nutsac_Jim: Mentat: Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.

Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.

Enlighten us into how Putin tricked Georgia into invading Tskhinvali.

You're saying Georgia invaded Russia unprovoked?

Is  Tskhinvali  Russia?


Crimea isn't either, but it almost was. Weeks ago, Putin started sending in guys to give everyone Russian passports. The same thing happened in South-Ossetia.
 
2014-03-15 11:46:40 PM

flexflint: Nutsac_Jim: flexflint: Nutsac_Jim: Mentat: Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.

Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.

Enlighten us into how Putin tricked Georgia into invading Tskhinvali.

You're saying Georgia invaded Russia unprovoked?

Is  Tskhinvali  Russia?

Crimea isn't either, but it almost was. Weeks ago, Putin started sending in guys to give everyone Russian passports. The same thing happened in South-Ossetia.


But South Ossetia was different because reasons and furthermore...
 
2014-03-15 11:47:57 PM

udhq: uber humper: You're confused, holmes. Putin said for America not to get involved, and America didn't.

Except for when Obama shot an angry look, and Putin's client state unilaterally disarmed, with the only condition being "Please, Mr. Obama, don't hurt us."

Night, man.


image.b4in.net

Sweet dreams

/supposedly, Putin in woman's underwear. Other is definitely  Medvedev
 
2014-03-15 11:58:47 PM

uber humper: udhq: uber humper: You're confused, holmes. Putin said for America not to get involved, and America didn't.

Except for when Obama shot an angry look, and Putin's client state unilaterally disarmed, with the only condition being "Please, Mr. Obama, don't hurt us."

Night, man.

[image.b4in.net image 213x320]

Sweet dreams

/supposedly, Putin in woman's underwear. Other is definitely  Medvedev


Goodbye erections, see you in 2 years.....
 
2014-03-16 12:02:00 AM

uber humper: eurotrash: uber humper: eurotrash: Obama has done things right so far.

That's what Putin said

just out of curiosity, what do you think US should have done that hasn't been done, I'll camp here for the response.


Sorry for the repeat, replied to the wrong message

Tell them we will bomb airbases if they invade. But that wouldn't work for Obama, he wouldn't be believed so it would start a war. If a strong man were to say that, Putin would fold because he cannot survive an attack. They don't compare to us in the least, technology wise.  Chutzpah, they have.


i am happy you are not in a position of power, start to bomb airbases in Russia is exactly the wrong thing to do. Aggressive behaviour like that would strengthen Putin's position and could possibly provoke China in to action regarding spratly islands.

I think you severly underestimate Russias ability regarding conventional strength, especially if you play in their backyard. Threatening that kind of action is pointless as everyone knows nothing would happen, no matter who is in the whitehouse.

US ability to project power with their carrier groups is also limited, moving into the black sea as someone said is just stupid, they'd be sitting ducks there, also how do you get a carrier group in through straits of Isthmus?

Although would get the russians opportunity to try out the shkval torpedo.

Best course of action now is what Obama is doing, any sabre rattling would be counterproductive, better to use Ukraine as proxy and prod Poland, baltics, Kazakstan to action.
 
2014-03-16 12:06:50 AM

BravadoGT: Felgraf: icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.

Why would it send such a message? Would we actually intend to use them?

Would *you* be willing to use them if Putin didn't "get the message"?

Shows of strength only work if you are actually willing to BACK THEM UP. Would you be willing to start WWIII?

Obama gave up missile defense in eastern Europe without getting anything from Putin in exchange.  Maybe he should reconsider that decision.


Obama didn't give up missile defense in Europe. he just postponed it by a few years. by 2018 there will be a range of defenses in Poland & Romania for short & medium distance missiles instead of long range.

basically, eastern Europe will get a system that would be geared against an attack by Russia rather than Iran.
 
2014-03-16 12:11:21 AM

thehobbes: Can someone please explain why we cannot extend temporary "trial" or "probationary" status to the government of Ukraine? Have their parliament apply for a temporary evaluation membership with temporary protection through Article 5 on a limited 3 month term renewable contract as long as their military agrees to coordinate with NATO advisers as far as their actions? Write the contract where NATO is allowed temporary access to Ukraininan territory on a council reviewed basis. Give NATO the option to intervene legally for the protection of Ukrainian sovereignty during this trial period.


There is no need to get Ukraine in NATO, the Budapest memorandum is enough of a casus belli if US and UK would want it to be. Ukraine actually has a good international legal case against Russia on this alone.

Getting Ukraine into NATO now is just stupid and blustering from politicians that just want to make re election points, no one with actual responsibility would agree to that kind of stupid course of action.

Solution here is to give Putin enough rope to hang himself with
 
2014-03-16 12:15:55 AM

eurotrash: also how do you get a carrier group in through straits of Isthmus?


You were doing pretty well until this point.
 
2014-03-16 12:16:42 AM

netcentric: I reject the whole Obama has a Wimp Factor thing.


Fortunately, it's just something the US right wing has talked itself into.  I doubt any other world leader thinks of Obama as a pushover.
 
2014-03-16 12:16:42 AM

Keith Dudemeister: uber humper: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 554x730]

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.

Do you write bumper stickers for a living, dude?


Not to mention that man damn nearly started World War 3 in the Korean War. He wanted to drop 40 goddamn nukes on North Korea and actually tried to circumvent the President to do so.
 
2014-03-16 12:23:51 AM
uber humper: If there were a stronger man (or woman) as commander and chief, it could be different. ... Regan or Maggie? Putin would probably would back down.

Like Reagan persevered in Lebanon?  Seems like backing down to me.
 
2014-03-16 12:30:17 AM

uber humper: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 554x730]

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.


Of all the Manly Men you could have chosen, you picked him?  Ok.
 
2014-03-16 01:01:58 AM
Do we not have any former NBA players who can intervene?
 
2014-03-16 01:12:05 AM

eurotrash: There is no need to get Ukraine in NATO, the Budapest memorandum is enough of a casus belli if US and UK would want it to be. Ukraine actually has a good international legal case against Russia on this alone.


I'm not saying we have to accept them as full members, just allow NATO observers in country/joint exercises. Show of force all to prevent a war. Make Putin slow his expansion and give sanctions and the UN time to put more pressure on Russia. Dissidents and protesters are picking up steam in the Russian homeland. Do it  under the pretense of an evaluation period for the new government and make it get it to be at their request.

Ukraine has a legal case against Russia but any legal ramifications are going to take time. Let Brussels offer protection to a possible future member for an evaluation period and drag out the actual decision to add them as a member but give NATO a chance to slow military incursions. Having Turkey on board would bottle up the Black Sea fleet and make it useless. Let the public outcry grow about the situation, not let it seem like it is just the US/UK vs Russia.  Buy time, let the sanctions work, shore up the Ukrainian military.

Russia was spinning the narrative that the current Ukrainian administration is illegal and fascist. Show international military support. Russia is violating Ukrainian air space currently and they are waiting for the world to act. While it is of little concern to the average US citizen, the Poles are taking this as an extremely serious threat. Sanctions may back Putin into a corner and he has no problem harassing the Ukrainian military alone I doubt any Russian troop would disregard a NATO backed force as they have the Ukrainians so far 

As FARK scholars have pointed out, the Budapest memorandum doesn't specify the punishment for any aggression against Ukraine, only pledges we will not violate Ukraine sovereignty... which Russia has violated with no consequence as of yet. 

What is the consequence of allowing NATO into the country and allow an application period? Antagonizing the president who is attempting to annex the country that just overthrew his puppet?

In no way do I want to see World War 3. I hope this passes without violence, but I do think that forcing the Ukrainians to give up parts of their country as Putin sees fit. I can't imagine anyone in Europe wants to see the former Soviet states reunited by force.
 
2014-03-16 01:14:37 AM
you know the more i think about this entire mess, and how repubs are using it to bash Obama , i am willing to bet even if he wanted a declaration of war the house would probably vote against out it of fear a victory would make Obama look good.
 
2014-03-16 01:20:47 AM

uber humper: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 554x730]

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.


So by men, you mean "batshiat bugfark crazy motherfarkers". That man was like a relic of a bygone era even when he was contemporary.
 
2014-03-16 02:09:54 AM

grimlock1972: you know the more i think about this entire mess, and how repubs are using it to bash Obama , i am willing to bet even if he wanted a declaration of war the house would probably vote against out it of fear a victory would make Obama look good.


The House tried to attach IRS reform to the Ukraine aid bill.  Even McCain stood up and called them assholes.
 
2014-03-16 02:43:31 AM

BigNumber12: eurotrash: also how do you get a carrier group in through straits of Isthmus?

You were doing pretty well until this point.


Meant Bosphorus, however why would you want to trap a carrier group in the black sea is beyond me.
Sending destroyers or a battleship group perhaps but it wouldn't be a wise thing to do.
 
2014-03-16 02:48:41 AM

BigNumber12: Russia invades a Russian village?

EVERYONE PANIC


I like it but it's a little nuanced for the Wal-Mart crowd. Can you make it even stupider?
 
2014-03-16 02:57:42 AM
thehobbes: eurotrash: There is no need to get Ukraine in NATO, the Budapest memorandum is enough of a casus belli if US and UK would want it to be. Ukraine actually has a good international legal case against Russia on this alone.

I'm not saying we have to accept them as full members, just allow NATO observers in country/joint exercises. Show of force all to prevent a war. Make Putin slow his expansion and give sanctions and the UN time to put more pressure on Russia. Dissidents and protesters are picking up steam in the Russian homeland. Do it  under the pretense of an evaluation period for the new government and make it get it to be at their request.

No need to involve NATO, send OSCE observers and go for a UN General Assembly vote to put observers in, the Ukraine can go to both Brussels and to the tribunal in Hague to argue cases they will win.
The whole point here is to pile on pressure on Putin so his cleptocratric pals will oust him from Kremlin.

Losing Crimea is not a huge thing for Ukraine, it's a poor area and for Russia to support it with gas, electricity and resources will be a logistical nightmare, there was a reason for Russia to give it to Ukraine before. Let Russia spend millions to get that going, Ukraine can cut support with the blessing of UN and Brussel later, they're doing the right thing now by keeping the support on.

This whole thing will be a decade long "battle", but the biggest mistake by Putin is that he can forget about his eastern alliance, even belarus is quietly pulling away...
 
2014-03-16 07:26:13 AM

eurotrash: Getting Ukraine into NATO now is just stupid and blustering from politicians that just want to make re election points, no one with actual responsibility would agree to that kind of stupid course of action.


Ukraine as a topic in American politics is just a re-election point. But with the US, unfortunately the election system is never ending
 
2014-03-16 09:29:28 AM
Anyone who thinks that Putin is invading Crimea because of Obama, or that he invaded Georgia because of Bush, is a partisan hack who is more interested in "Other side bad!" than the truth.

Here's why Putin did those things.

BECAUSE HE'S A farkING NUTJOB.
 
2014-03-16 11:01:35 AM

on the road: uber humper: If there were a stronger man (or woman) as commander and chief, it could be different. ... Regan or Maggie? Putin would probably would back down.

Like Reagan persevered in Lebanon?  Seems like backing down to me.


Don't confuse him with facts.
 
2014-03-16 11:10:23 AM

shower_in_my_socks: There is still a strong neocon thread running through this country that has a lot of people convinced that every single thing that happens in the world should warrant US involvement.


Blaming neocons for treaties liberals made is bass-ackward. The Budapest Memorandum was signed by President Bill Clinton, was he a "strong neocon"? I don't think he was a "strong neocon".

Where things stand today, the US and Britain have a treaty with Ukraine, so we are involved. This is not a political right or left issue, if anything this is a political left issue. But we are all involved now. There is no question of that. Yes it's true that we can ignore any treaty we like. It's also true this treaty was not voted on by the senate, so that gives us more leeway to ignore it. But keep in mind, the treaty to defend Ukraine's sovereignty was in exchange for them to denuclearize. That was on the liberal agenda that I support. Now Russia is testing our treaty. If the liberals do nothing, they are undermining their previous goals and that voids all the similar treaties we made for countries to denuclearize. That's a huge international problem, small countries making nukes is a problem for US security and we are directly involved.

Acting now with whatever means are necessary to prevent Russian expansion into Ukraine is the most reasonable course of action. I favor taking as limited action as necessary. Economic sanctions and even cutting off gas sales with Russia would be reasonable first steps. And I know that any action is going to be awful economically for the European gas situation and awful for troops if they become involved. The fact is our best choice may be to put troops on the ground. But if we don't take action we will be encouraging every small country to develop nukes because if our treaties are meaningless then that will be their only choice. And chances are some of those small countries will use their nukes from time to time.

President Clinton signed that document. We "liberals" are involved in this situation and there will be global repercussions if we ignore the situation.
 
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