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(Yahoo)   Putin begins his liberation of villages neighboring the Crimea from non-Russian control   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 206
    More: Obvious, Crimean, Russians, Ukraine, Russian control, Russian forces, East-West, helicopter gunships, Long-distance track event  
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4526 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Mar 2014 at 6:01 PM (22 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-15 06:47:47 PM
One demonstrator held up a plate of salo - cured pork fat that is a staple of Ukrainian cuisine and adored by many Russians - along with a poster that read: "Make salo, not war!"

I think I'd rather watch war than Salo
 
2014-03-15 06:48:51 PM

icemanwol: Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.



Why don't we just send them a bunch of unicorns and rainbows since we're talking crazy.
 
2014-03-15 06:49:09 PM

Cajnik: Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied

I haven't been reading these threads on Fark and I am honestly surprised by this thread. Why the fark should Obama even get involved? It's not America's problem, and there's a reason the Cold War never got hot.


If he gets involved, the right wing nuts will criticize him for that.
If he doesn't get involved, the right wing nuts will criticize him for that.
They are mentally ill, you can't use logic with them.
 
2014-03-15 06:52:05 PM

Begoggle: Cajnik: Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied

I haven't been reading these threads on Fark and I am honestly surprised by this thread. Why the fark should Obama even get involved? It's not America's problem, and there's a reason the Cold War never got hot.

If he gets involved, the right wing nuts will criticize him for that.
If he doesn't get involved, the right wing nuts will criticize him for that.
They are mentally ill, you can't use logic with them.


Libya is the perfect example of him getting involved and watching them lost their shiat. They have no opinion on anything until he acts
 
2014-03-15 06:53:02 PM

shower_in_my_socks: We don't really give a fark about Ukraine, we just don't like it that Russia is doing something. It's farking childish.


I agree with you on the first part (about Ukraine) in being the harsh truth of the matter, but I don't necessarily think it's "childish". Unchecked Russian ambition -does- erode the US international standing, so there has to be at least a show of resisting their efforts short of bullets.

I'm by no means a "Obama can do no wrong" person, but we've been playing this as best we can given the circumstances, really.
 
2014-03-15 06:54:20 PM

Peter von Nostrand: Libya is the perfect example of him getting involved and watching them lost their shiat. They have no opinion on anything until he acts



To this day, I still don't know if the GOP was for or against US military action in Libya.

And considering that CPAC backed the isolationist, anti-neocon Rand Paul, I suspect that they don't know either.
 
2014-03-15 06:56:12 PM
This isn't a US problem-- we are not going to start a war that close to the borders of our European allies unilaterally.  If NATO wants to get involved (at the request of Europe) then we'll support it, otherwise it's basically sanctions and then we're washing our hands of the matter.

This isn't Afghanistan or Iraq where the nearby US allies (India, Israel and the Sauds) either don't give a shiat or are actively in favor of us blowing shiat up.  It's a matter of the Europeans dealing with their neighbors until they actually ask for help.

// I'm not really sure why some people find this going over their heads.  This isn't some deep, complex and nuanced section of politics, this is 101-level shiat.
 
2014-03-15 06:56:37 PM
Will I get called a neocon. Again for saying Putin invading Ukraine is bad? Cause last time I got called a neocon.

/am I not a neocon if I'm sippin' that Putinaide?
//Putinborsche?
 
2014-03-15 06:56:56 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


Turn tail and run.... back to my testosterone free lifestyle  ?
 
2014-03-15 07:00:03 PM

Cajnik: Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied

I haven't been reading these threads on Fark and I am honestly surprised by this thread. Why the fark should Obama even get involved? It's not America's problem, and there's a reason the Cold War never got hot.


The Soviet Union also didn't begin invading it's western neighbors...

That said, I don't know what the hell we can or should do on this.  Russia may stop, they may not, and if they don't we eventually have to do *something*, but I think faulting the president for not immediately nuking Russia is a bit retarded to put it politely.
 
2014-03-15 07:00:52 PM
oh you're a charmer. just turned three months old too. such a cute little troll
 
2014-03-15 07:03:02 PM
So now we see the crowning victory, I mean utter and complete failure, of 5 years of Clinton/Obama policy.

It would be fair to say that Bush's handling was awkward and misguided at times. But he understood what Putin is and how you communicate with such a creature.

Obama policy is to make threats and do nothing. This is so clear now that he has no cards in his hand, and with no cards we are more likely to wind up in a major global conflict just as we are extricating ourselves from Afghanistan.

When you take no action and back away, things get more out of control, which in turn leads to bigger conflicts later. We can't jump into a war but we need to recognize that failing to act after issuing threats and ultimatums comes with a price. Obama is not big on foreign policy and he needs somebody better than nimrods like Kerry and Rice advising him.
 
2014-03-15 07:06:01 PM

Animatronik: So now we see the crowning victory, I mean utter and complete failure, of 5 years of Clinton/Obama policy.

It would be fair to say that Bush's handling was awkward and misguided at times. But he understood what Putin is and how you communicate with such a creature.

Obama policy is to make threats and do nothing. This is so clear now that he has no cards in his hand, and with no cards we are more likely to wind up in a major global conflict just as we are extricating ourselves from Afghanistan.

When you take no action and back away, things get more out of control, which in turn leads to bigger conflicts later. We can't jump into a war but we need to recognize that failing to act after issuing threats and ultimatums comes with a price. Obama is not big on foreign policy and he needs somebody better than nimrods like Kerry and Rice advising him.


..are you really THAT bummed that we're not at war in Syria right now?
 
2014-03-15 07:07:29 PM

Treize26: The Soviet Union also didn't begin invading it's western neighbors...


Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956
Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia

Oh, you mean Western neighbors with a capital W? Those were members of NATO, which Ukraine is not.
 
2014-03-15 07:08:21 PM

icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.


Why would it send such a message? Would we actually intend to use them?

Would *you* be willing to use them if Putin didn't "get the message"?

Shows of strength only work if you are actually willing to BACK THEM UP. Would you be willing to start WWIII?
 
2014-03-15 07:11:14 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


harmoniaphilosophica.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-03-15 07:11:25 PM

Animatronik: When you take no action and back away, things get more out of control, which in turn leads to bigger conflicts later. We can't jump into a war but we need to recognize that failing to act after issuing threats and ultimatums comes with a price.


We can't jump into a war, so charge ahead with a war?
 
2014-03-15 07:12:11 PM
And to think, this is only happening because the president emboldened Putin by wearing mom jeans.....
 
2014-03-15 07:15:55 PM

bim1154: Benghazi


DRINK!
 
2014-03-15 07:19:37 PM

Felgraf: icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.

Why would it send such a message? Would we actually intend to use them?

Would *you* be willing to use them if Putin didn't "get the message"?

Shows of strength only work if you are actually willing to BACK THEM UP. Would you be willing to start WWIII?


We may need to do more than sanctions but that the problem you're going to have with any "solution" that goes beyond sanctions. People want Obama to be more an empty suit but all other alternatives leads us on to a path were we're risking WW3. There's no middle ground.

If sanctions don't work, we are going to have to do something that risks WW3. We can only hope that we don't actually get WW3.
 
2014-03-15 07:21:18 PM

Animatronik: So now we see the crowning victory, I mean utter and complete failure, of 5 years of Clinton/Obama policy.

It would be fair to say that Bush's handling was awkward and misguided at times. But he understood what Putin is and how you communicate with such a creature.

Obama policy is to make threats and do nothing. This is so clear now that he has no cards in his hand, and with no cards we are more likely to wind up in a major global conflict just as we are extricating ourselves from Afghanistan.

When you take no action and back away, things get more out of control, which in turn leads to bigger conflicts later. We can't jump into a war but we need to recognize that failing to act after issuing threats and ultimatums comes with a price. Obama is not big on foreign policy and he needs somebody better than nimrods like Kerry and Rice advising him.


You do understand that Russia is the most internationally isolated that it's ever been, and that it's economy is EXTREMELY vulnerable right now, don't you?

The only winning move for them here was not to play, and they blew it, and now they're back to their original post-Soviet irrelevance.

Face it, when Obama took office, we were moving in the direction of a multi-polar world, with the US sharing global hegemony with the EU and China.  But now, 1 economic meltdown later, the US is back as the undisputed sole-superpower of the world.

And that just Drives.  You.  Crazy.
 
2014-03-15 07:24:34 PM
Has the Ukrainian government asked for western milItary intervention?

I'm just wondering because I can see some of the new Govt wondering if Russia taking over one of the poorest areas of the country that is almost entirely filled with ethnic Russians might not be the worst thing in the world - they lose a bunch of poor people and increase the proportion of the population who are Ukrainian, which would greatly reduce the chance of another pro-Russian government getting elected.
 
2014-03-15 07:27:57 PM

Target Builder: Has the Ukrainian government asked for western milItary intervention?

I'm just wondering because I can see some of the new Govt wondering if Russia taking over one of the poorest areas of the country that is almost entirely filled with ethnic Russians might not be the worst thing in the world - they lose a bunch of poor people and increase the proportion of the population who are Ukrainian, which would greatly reduce the chance of another pro-Russian government getting elected.


Assuming when all is said and done that it's just Crimea, then yes, the Kyiv gov't going forward will be -decidedly- more Western leaning, not only from losing all those pro-Russia votes that were in Crimea, but I imagine general attitude towards Russia among the general populace would have soured a bit as well.

That's a big IF though (Russia stopping at Crimea).
 
2014-03-15 07:30:12 PM
I reject the whole Obama has a Wimp Factor thing.

But who knows what Putin thinks.
 
2014-03-15 07:30:52 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Almost Everybody Poops: Now THAT'S effective foreign policy.

Do nothing.


Actually, we and our European Allies are going to begin sanctions on Monday. There really is no excuse for being this willfully ignorant.


Will you own that on Monday if it doesn't happen?
 
2014-03-15 07:33:00 PM

Cathedralmaster: Felgraf: icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.

Why would it send such a message? Would we actually intend to use them?

Would *you* be willing to use them if Putin didn't "get the message"?

Shows of strength only work if you are actually willing to BACK THEM UP. Would you be willing to start WWIII?

We may need to do more than sanctions but that the problem you're going to have with any "solution" that goes beyond sanctions. People want Obama to be more an empty suit but all other alternatives leads us on to a path were we're risking WW3. There's no middle ground.

If sanctions don't work, we are going to have to do something that risks WW3. We can only hope that we don't actually get WW3.


Dammit. I mean "more than an empty suit"...
 
2014-03-15 07:35:09 PM

netcentric: I reject the whole Obama has a Wimp Factor thing.

But who knows what Putin thinks.


He think like a life-long government bureaucrat who mysteriously holds a net worth of $70 billion, i.e. like a criminal.
 
2014-03-15 07:36:20 PM
He lives up to the legends.  Stalin, Lenin.  Tempting to call him an evil fascist dictator, however awesome he is.  But, review the region's culture.  It seems to be their way.  While it's not what we do, perhaps it's how they prefer it.  A dangerous situation, nonetheless.
 
2014-03-15 07:37:30 PM
Obama fiddled while Kiev burned.
 
2014-03-15 07:40:41 PM
Cathedralmaster:
If sanctions don't work, we...

I don't quite understand this thought. What scenario are you expecting here?
I wouldn't form strategies on how to fight someone that just lose their head to a mortar.
 
2014-03-15 07:40:52 PM

Animatronik: So now we see the crowning victory, I mean utter and complete failure, of 5 years of Clinton/Obama policy.

It would be fair to say that Bush's handling was awkward and misguided at times. But he understood what Putin is and how you communicate with such a creature.



"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul." - George W. Bush speaking about Putin in 2001

And then, after 8 years in the White House, Dubya sat there and did jack shiat while Putin invaded Georgia. There's your f*cking precedent set by an American president. So I can see why the GOP apologists want to downplay that bullshiat and point fingers in every other direction. The Bush years were such a culsterf*ck for this country and the rest of the world that you guys can't even admit that they happened. You just point the finger at the Dems who came before and after him without any justification purely to save face. What a farking embarrassment.
 
2014-03-15 07:41:32 PM

GoldSpider: Will you own that on Monday if it doesn't happen?



As much as you will if it does.
 
2014-03-15 07:59:45 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Not a single right wing retard in any of these Obama-bashing threads has offered up a single solution that goes beyond sanctions without starting WWIII. I guess the talking points from Rush and Breitbart didn't get to the part where they tell you what to think about actual actions we should be taking. This shiat is getting old, so put up or STFU.

And, no, "training exercises" and a carrier group in the region aren't going to do shiat. Dubya didn't start WWIII over Georgia, and we aren't starting WWIII over Ukraine. It does not matter who is in the White House, that is the American position. You're either with us or against us, right?


Convince Ukraine to shut off all power and water to Crimea, with the ultimatum that all Ukrainian infrastructure that delivers water and power to Crimea will be destroyed in one week.

Doesn't involve sending in troops or wetting your pants whilst drafting a strongly worded letter.

/have fun stretching water, power and NG lines across the Strait of Kerch, Boris
 
2014-03-15 08:03:22 PM
swamp_of_dumb:

Convince Ukraine to shut off all power and water to Crimea, with the ultimatum that all Ukrainian infrastructure that delivers water and power to Crimea will be destroyed in one week.

Doesn't involve sending in troops or wetting your pants whilst drafting a strongly worded letter.

/have fun stretching water, power and NG lines across the Strait of Kerch, Boris


That would almost certainly be viewed by Russia as an act of aggression and collective punishment against ethnic Russians in Crimea and would very likely be used as a pretense to invade more of Eastern Ukraine.
 
2014-03-15 08:07:38 PM

Begoggle: One demonstrator held up a plate of salo - cured pork fat that is a staple of Ukrainian cuisine and adored by many Russians - along with a poster that read: "Make salo, not war!"

I think I'd rather watch war than Salo


I hope you never find out where bacon comes from.

/salo and Hungarian Chile sandwiches are super delicious
 
2014-03-15 08:10:16 PM

swamp_of_dumb: shower_in_my_socks: Convince Ukraine to shut off all power and water to Crimea


The Ukrainian interim president has said this week that they will do no such thing. You would also hurt the ethnic Ukrainians and the Tatars.

And oh: it appears the Russians have seized a gas tower at Kerson .... that's North of Crimea, *inside* Ukraine.
 
2014-03-15 08:11:03 PM

TheGregiss: Will I get called a neocon. Again for saying Putin invading Ukraine is bad? Cause last time I got called a neocon.

/am I not a neocon if I'm sippin' that Putinaide?
//Putinborsche?


It's bad and wrong, but it's not our shiat sandwich. Ukraine, Russia, and the EU are the ones who need to take a juicy bite.
 
2014-03-15 08:27:30 PM

Almost Everybody Poops: bim1154: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Keep mouth shut instead of continuing to make an ass out of one's self.

Now THAT'S effective foreign policy.

Do nothing.


Better than drawing redlines that are gong to be ignored makign you look even weaker .  Better than making a meaningless gesture of giving the Ukranians MREs.  Those  things are all worse than doing nothing because they make you look weak and ineffective.  This has all the earmarks fo a bunch fo handwinging "but we have to do something" but to afraid to really do anything.

Like it or not folks Cold War II started years before this.  Russian has developed a deployed a new ICBM, New SLBM and new SSBN. It is refurbishing old bombers (granted not in great numbers) and is now doing the old game of overflights of US /NATO forces and incursions into our airspace.  There was the invasion of Georgia, the assistance to Syria and helping Iran with its Nuclear program and the sale of Weapons to Hugo Chavez.


As I have posted earlier  Time to start pushing back
 

Obviously not but you remember when Obama tried to reset the US Russian relationship by giving into Russian concerns about things like missile defense? Well you reverse course plus.
You start up Missile Defense in Poland and the Czech Republic again.

Plus:
You put an Expeditionary Air Wing in Poland on a 6 month rotation basis. (cheaper than the whole station personal over there for two to four years with their families nonsense). You do the same with an Army Armor or Mech. Brigade in the Czech Republic.

Also on rotation you put a Marine Air Ground Task Force in one of the Baltic states and form a Baltic Sea Squadron with some Arleigh Burke ABM capable Destroyers. You stick a Special Force training Team and Patriot battery in Georgia

To this I add    A Patriot battery and Military training teams in Kiev to protect equipment sent to and  help train Ukrainian forces in its use. We have thousands of APCs, IFVs tanks and.artillery not to mentions small arms much of it obsolete for our use but still serviceable.  Better still Some of our newer NATO allies have a lot stuff from their days as Soviet Union slaves that they would be happy to get rid of because it is not to NATO standard but the Ukrainians would already now how to use them


You pay for at least part of it by further reducing forces if not eliminating those in Germany Spain Italy etc.
You could ask our NATO "allies" to share the load but since most of them would get their panties in a wad don't count on it except the former Soviet slave states.
Of course this means rethinking your defense cuts and instead of cutting trigger pullers and equipment you start cutting back on civil servants, DoD and Service vice, deputy, assistant and under secretaries, Flag officers and all their staffs, Stateside DoD dependent schools etc, etc, etc, etc.
This would not even impact or pivot toward the Pacific that much if done right.
 
2014-03-15 08:32:46 PM
www.rbrides.com

livedoor.blogimg.jp

www.rbrides.com

4.bp.blogspot.com

www.struga.net
 
2014-03-15 08:34:50 PM

Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied


We dont need Putin for that.  We have Obama for that.
 
2014-03-15 08:37:30 PM

bim1154: Strongly worded letter in the near future.... again.


No... massive economic sanctions that will hit Putin's kleptocrat political allies right in the wallet.
 
2014-03-15 08:40:54 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Not a single right wing retard in any of these Obama-bashing threads has offered up a single solution that goes beyond sanctions without starting WWIII. I guess the talking points from Rush and Breitbart didn't get to the part where they tell you what to think about actual actions we should be taking. This shiat is getting old, so put up or STFU.

And, no, "training exercises" and a carrier group in the region aren't going to do shiat. Dubya didn't start WWIII over Georgia, and we aren't starting WWIII over Ukraine. It does not matter who is in the White House, that is the American position. You're either with us or against us, right?


Ukraine was picking its noise.  Georgia was mid scale military action into  Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same.   Keep saying it, though.  Dubya and Georgia  Dubya and Georgia   Maybe even a few retards will believe it.
 
2014-03-15 08:42:22 PM

jnapier: [www.powerlineblog.com image 634x356]


What I see.

noweevil.com
 
2014-03-15 08:43:02 PM
So, where this is going is that, as more and more countries pursue nuclear weapons, we'll try to talk them out of doing so, and they'll justifiably tell us to fark right off.

What a world I'm bringing kids into.
 
2014-03-15 08:43:44 PM
GODDAMMIT, OBAMA, STOP EATING THOSE FARKING CRACKERS!!
 
2014-03-15 08:53:51 PM

BigNumber12: So, where this is going is that, as more and more countries pursue nuclear weapons, we'll try to talk them out of doing so, and they'll justifiably tell us to fark right off.

What a world I'm bringing kids into.


Nukes are completely out of the bag, man.  The technology is nearly 70 years old, maybe older than your Granny.
 
2014-03-15 08:53:59 PM
I was under the impression that the world would love and respect us if we elected Mr Hope & Change.

I want my money back.

I guess Denmark and Sweden like us a little more, but I still want my money back
 
2014-03-15 08:54:08 PM

The Bestest: Also, there was a UNSC vote this morning denouncing the Crimea referendum. It predictably failed due to Russian veto, but the vote was otherwise 13-0, with China abstaining.


I suppose it's unlikely that Russia knows or cares how pathetic they look by vetoing it.
 
2014-03-15 08:54:23 PM

BigNumber12: So, where this is going is that, as more and more countries pursue nuclear weapons, we'll try to talk them out of doing so, and they'll justifiably tell us to fark right off.

What a world I'm bringing kids into.


That's probably the one thing we'll mainly actually do things about, if not militarily.
Any threat of a new actor coming into nuclear weapons is generally met with the heaviest of sanctions and cyberattacks.
 
2014-03-15 08:56:17 PM

Bonzo_1116: Nukes are completely out of the bag, man.  The technology is nearly 70 years old, maybe older than your Granny.


Technology and means are completely separate animals.
 
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