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(Yahoo)   Putin begins his liberation of villages neighboring the Crimea from non-Russian control   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 206
    More: Obvious, Crimean, Russians, Ukraine, Russian control, Russian forces, East-West, helicopter gunships, Long-distance track event  
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4525 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Mar 2014 at 6:01 PM (18 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



206 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-03-15 06:04:04 PM
Dobby's going Full Stalin now!
 
2014-03-15 06:05:47 PM
Society has evolved. Nicholas I invaded the Crimea to save Orthodox Russians from the Muslims. Now we just call these things what they are: hanging on to empires.
 
2014-03-15 06:06:01 PM
There's going to be serious consequences!  We mean it guys!  You better stop!
 
2014-03-15 06:08:11 PM
img.fark.net

"I'm ordering our bombers back to fail-safe; we might have to go through this thing after all."
 
2014-03-15 06:08:41 PM
Strongly worded letter in the near future.... again.
 
2014-03-15 06:08:57 PM
Funny... Just finished session of Civilization Revolution before reading this.DEFEND!! Whoa choppers and tanks against- awe shiat, never mind.
 
2014-03-15 06:09:17 PM
We need to begin massive nuclear strikes against Moscow NOW! Why is Obama delaying?
 
2014-03-15 06:09:45 PM
inB4 crimeariver.jpg
 
2014-03-15 06:11:45 PM
I'm not saying go to war, but maybe park a carrier group in the Black Sea and have the Air Force bases in Turkey and German do a few extra exercises just to see if Putin thinks things over.
 
2014-03-15 06:13:32 PM
If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter
 
2014-03-15 06:13:46 PM

bsharitt: I'm not saying go to war, but maybe park a carrier group in the Black Sea and have the Air Force bases in Turkey and German do a few extra exercises just to see if Putin thinks things over.


Putin has the west by the short hairs and he knows it.
 
2014-03-15 06:14:03 PM
Can we call this "The War of Eastern Aggression"?
 
2014-03-15 06:14:18 PM
Shut off the oil and gas. Freeze the RusMafia accounts. Sure, it'll be a bit brisk in Europe for about four weeks, but it'll be just like old times. I hear they like old times there.

Seriously, nothing else short of smoking craters will work. Putin's power base is greased by a steady stream of dirty money.
 
2014-03-15 06:14:22 PM

A simulation of what could happen if those Pinko Commies take control of the Ukraine:


thunderbird37.com

 
2014-03-15 06:15:32 PM
So which will it be: The Day After, Threads, or Testament?
 
2014-03-15 06:15:38 PM
www.powerlineblog.com
 
2014-03-15 06:18:15 PM
www.powerlineblog.com
 
2014-03-15 06:20:14 PM

jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter


So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?
 
2014-03-15 06:21:01 PM

Hector Remarkable: We need to begin massive nuclear strikes against Moscow NOW! Why is Obama delaying?


Because he's Putin's biatch.
 
2014-03-15 06:21:48 PM
It's funny because the internet loves Russia.
 
2014-03-15 06:22:27 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


Go golfing again.
 
2014-03-15 06:23:21 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


Keep mouth shut instead of continuing to make an ass out of one's self.
 
2014-03-15 06:23:59 PM
Keep going Putin, I'm sure this will pay off in the long run.
 
2014-03-15 06:25:06 PM
Russia invades a Russian village?

EVERYONE PANIC
 
2014-03-15 06:25:26 PM

bim1154: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Keep mouth shut instead of continuing to make an ass out of one's self.


Now THAT'S effective foreign policy.

Do nothing.
 
2014-03-15 06:26:23 PM

jnapier: [www.powerlineblog.com image 543x540]


Ask Georgia.
 
2014-03-15 06:27:38 PM
Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied
 
2014-03-15 06:29:49 PM
Not a single right wing retard in any of these Obama-bashing threads has offered up a single solution that goes beyond sanctions without starting WWIII. I guess the talking points from Rush and Breitbart didn't get to the part where they tell you what to think about actual actions we should be taking. This shiat is getting old, so put up or STFU.

And, no, "training exercises" and a carrier group in the region aren't going to do shiat. Dubya didn't start WWIII over Georgia, and we aren't starting WWIII over Ukraine. It does not matter who is in the White House, that is the American position. You're either with us or against us, right?
 
2014-03-15 06:29:56 PM

Almost Everybody Poops: bim1154: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Keep mouth shut instead of continuing to make an ass out of one's self.

Now THAT'S effective foreign policy.

Do nothing.


And stop throwing a baseball like a sissy Obama.  Reagan would have brushed back Putin with a high-and-inside fastball.
 
2014-03-15 06:30:08 PM

oukewldave: There's going to be serious consequences!  We mean it guys!  You better stop!


With all the help that Ukraine is getting from the west they may as well ask Putin if they can go back to square one and let bygones be bygones .
 
2014-03-15 06:30:22 PM

Almost Everybody Poops: bim1154: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Keep mouth shut instead of continuing to make an ass out of one's self.

Now THAT'S effective foreign policy.

Do nothing.


Soo..pretty much continue what we're doing, minus the planned sanctions.

What is this guy, an appeaser?
 
2014-03-15 06:31:02 PM

Almost Everybody Poops: Now THAT'S effective foreign policy.

Do nothing.



Actually, we and our European Allies are going to begin sanctions on Monday. There really is no excuse for being this willfully ignorant.
 
2014-03-15 06:31:09 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?



Write a paper advocating disarming the west at the peak of the cold war?
 
2014-03-15 06:34:22 PM

bsharitt: I'm not saying go to war, but maybe park a carrier group in the Black Sea and have the Air Force bases in Turkey and German do a few extra exercises just to see if Putin thinks things over.


The GHW Bush is in the Mediterranean on standby and Polish forces are on Ukraine's western border.

BigNumber12: Russia invades a Russian village?

EVERYONE PANIC


It's a village in -Ukraine- and if true, this marks the first Russian movement in non-Crimean Ukraine.
 
2014-03-15 06:34:33 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


Go on TV and deny 'The Wimp label' the media has tagged him with ?
 
2014-03-15 06:35:23 PM

toadist: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


Write a paper advocating disarming the west at the peak of the cold war?


A paper? Oh my god. The horror! The. Horror. It's a miracle we all lived through it
 
2014-03-15 06:35:55 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Not a single right wing retard in any of these Obama-bashing threads has offered up a single solution that goes beyond sanctions without starting WWIII. I guess the talking points from Rush and Breitbart didn't get to the part where they tell you what to think about actual actions we should be taking. This shiat is getting old, so put up or STFU.

And, no, "training exercises" and a carrier group in the region aren't going to do shiat. Dubya didn't start WWIII over Georgia, and we aren't starting WWIII over Ukraine. It does not matter who is in the White House, that is the American position. You're either with us or against us, right?


Most of the solutions they offer do nothing in the short term.

- Restart the missile shield program (while ignoring that Putin invaded Georgia while the missile shield program was active)
- Send natural gas to Europe (while ignoring the massive logistical and economic issues that make it difficult to do that)

I think a lot of the criticism aimed at Obama should more rightfully be aimed at Western Europe, who has perfected the carrot-and-carrot approach to foreign policy.  With Germany addicted to Russian oil and Britain addicted to Russian cash and all of them still traumatized by two world wars, they tend to act as a limiter (for better or for worse) on what Obama can actually do.   Certainly, the US and Europe will need to make some long-term changes in energy policy and such after this, but I'm really not sure what can be done in the short term except for sanctions.  Parking a carrier group within range of Russian naval bases (and their associated defense systems) might not have the effect the bear-wrestlers are anticipating.
 
2014-03-15 06:36:14 PM
Also, there was a UNSC vote this morning denouncing the Crimea referendum. It predictably failed due to Russian veto, but the vote was otherwise 13-0, with China abstaining.
 
2014-03-15 06:36:51 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Almost Everybody Poops: Now THAT'S effective foreign policy.

Do nothing.


Actually, we and our European Allies are going to begin sanctions on Monday. There really is no excuse for being this willfully ignorant.


Oh I'm aware of that, I was simply mocking the person I was responding to.
 
2014-03-15 06:36:53 PM

Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied


I haven't been reading these threads on Fark and I am honestly surprised by this thread. Why the fark should Obama even get involved? It's not America's problem, and there's a reason the Cold War never got hot.
 
2014-03-15 06:37:37 PM
Clearly, any sitting president that doesn't launch nukes to defend some villages we don't actually give a fark about is a pussy.
 
2014-03-15 06:40:23 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.
 
2014-03-15 06:41:14 PM

The Bestest: bsharitt: I'm not saying go to war, but maybe park a carrier group in the Black Sea and have the Air Force bases in Turkey and German do a few extra exercises just to see if Putin thinks things over.

The GHW Bush is in the Mediterranean on standby and Polish forces are on Ukraine's western border.

BigNumber12: Russia invades a Russian village?

EVERYONE PANIC

It's a village in -Ukraine- and if true, this marks the first Russian movement in non-Crimean Ukraine.


Whoops - snark retracted. Kids make it difficult to properly focus on my Fark duties.
 
2014-03-15 06:42:37 PM

icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.


Alright.. let's say someone gets drunk/triggerhappy/clumsy and someone.. either side, gets shot. Now what?
 
2014-03-15 06:43:11 PM

Cajnik: Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied

I haven't been reading these threads on Fark and I am honestly surprised by this thread. Why the fark should Obama even get involved? It's not America's problem, and there's a reason the Cold War never got hot.


Because the US treats the world the same as it treats it's citizens.  Get most of them reliant on US government handouts, and act helpless when something happens and begs the US government to come help them.  Then the government helps by giving money and/or food and in turn gets the ones supported by the government to do whatever the US tells them to.
 
2014-03-15 06:43:25 PM
President Peace Prize is flummoxed and paralyzed with fear.
 
2014-03-15 06:43:59 PM

Cajnik: I haven't been reading these threads on Fark and I am honestly surprised by this thread. Why the fark should Obama even get involved? It's not America's problem, and there's a reason the Cold War never got hot.



There is still a strong neocon thread running through this country that has a lot of people convinced that every single thing that happens in the world should warrant US involvement. We don't really give a fark about Ukraine, we just don't like it that Russia is doing something. It's farking childish. Our hands have been tied, anyway, by the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation that still exists, and by Europe's reliance on Russian natural resources and banking money. That has fark all to do with who is in the White House.

Strategically, let Russia get embroiled in a civil war and occupation in Ukraine. It falls under the old "never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake" saying. Russia stood by and smiled when we launched our decade-long trillion dollar boondoggle money pit in Afghanistan. Give the Ukrainians money and let them drive the Russian economy into a ditch with a nice little proxy war from the good old days. Putin seems to not understand that the Soviet Union fell apart for a reason, and that getting into a spending war with the West hasn't worked out so well for them in the past, either.
 
2014-03-15 06:44:21 PM

The Bestest: icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.

Alright.. let's say someone gets drunk/triggerhappy/clumsy and someone.. either side, gets shot. Now what?


They'll bury it like they did the Benghazi incident.
 
2014-03-15 06:45:37 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


Throw on my favorite Mom Jeans..... eat a nice light watercress salad with a nice homemade raspberry vinegarette and then make an appearance on "The View"    ??
 
2014-03-15 06:45:58 PM

Cajnik: Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied

I haven't been reading these threads on Fark and I am honestly surprised by this thread. Why the fark should Obama even get involved? It's not America's problem, and there's a reason the Cold War never got hot.


They don't want us involved anymore than we needed to be involved in Georgia. They hate Obama so much that they will cheer for putin or anything that makes their President look bad. They nearly cratered the economy than work with him. Is truly sad
 
2014-03-15 06:47:47 PM
One demonstrator held up a plate of salo - cured pork fat that is a staple of Ukrainian cuisine and adored by many Russians - along with a poster that read: "Make salo, not war!"

I think I'd rather watch war than Salo
 
2014-03-15 06:48:51 PM

icemanwol: Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.



Why don't we just send them a bunch of unicorns and rainbows since we're talking crazy.
 
2014-03-15 06:49:09 PM

Cajnik: Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied

I haven't been reading these threads on Fark and I am honestly surprised by this thread. Why the fark should Obama even get involved? It's not America's problem, and there's a reason the Cold War never got hot.


If he gets involved, the right wing nuts will criticize him for that.
If he doesn't get involved, the right wing nuts will criticize him for that.
They are mentally ill, you can't use logic with them.
 
2014-03-15 06:52:05 PM

Begoggle: Cajnik: Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied

I haven't been reading these threads on Fark and I am honestly surprised by this thread. Why the fark should Obama even get involved? It's not America's problem, and there's a reason the Cold War never got hot.

If he gets involved, the right wing nuts will criticize him for that.
If he doesn't get involved, the right wing nuts will criticize him for that.
They are mentally ill, you can't use logic with them.


Libya is the perfect example of him getting involved and watching them lost their shiat. They have no opinion on anything until he acts
 
2014-03-15 06:53:02 PM

shower_in_my_socks: We don't really give a fark about Ukraine, we just don't like it that Russia is doing something. It's farking childish.


I agree with you on the first part (about Ukraine) in being the harsh truth of the matter, but I don't necessarily think it's "childish". Unchecked Russian ambition -does- erode the US international standing, so there has to be at least a show of resisting their efforts short of bullets.

I'm by no means a "Obama can do no wrong" person, but we've been playing this as best we can given the circumstances, really.
 
2014-03-15 06:54:20 PM

Peter von Nostrand: Libya is the perfect example of him getting involved and watching them lost their shiat. They have no opinion on anything until he acts



To this day, I still don't know if the GOP was for or against US military action in Libya.

And considering that CPAC backed the isolationist, anti-neocon Rand Paul, I suspect that they don't know either.
 
2014-03-15 06:56:12 PM
This isn't a US problem-- we are not going to start a war that close to the borders of our European allies unilaterally.  If NATO wants to get involved (at the request of Europe) then we'll support it, otherwise it's basically sanctions and then we're washing our hands of the matter.

This isn't Afghanistan or Iraq where the nearby US allies (India, Israel and the Sauds) either don't give a shiat or are actively in favor of us blowing shiat up.  It's a matter of the Europeans dealing with their neighbors until they actually ask for help.

// I'm not really sure why some people find this going over their heads.  This isn't some deep, complex and nuanced section of politics, this is 101-level shiat.
 
2014-03-15 06:56:37 PM
Will I get called a neocon. Again for saying Putin invading Ukraine is bad? Cause last time I got called a neocon.

/am I not a neocon if I'm sippin' that Putinaide?
//Putinborsche?
 
2014-03-15 06:56:56 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


Turn tail and run.... back to my testosterone free lifestyle  ?
 
2014-03-15 07:00:03 PM

Cajnik: Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied

I haven't been reading these threads on Fark and I am honestly surprised by this thread. Why the fark should Obama even get involved? It's not America's problem, and there's a reason the Cold War never got hot.


The Soviet Union also didn't begin invading it's western neighbors...

That said, I don't know what the hell we can or should do on this.  Russia may stop, they may not, and if they don't we eventually have to do *something*, but I think faulting the president for not immediately nuking Russia is a bit retarded to put it politely.
 
2014-03-15 07:00:52 PM
oh you're a charmer. just turned three months old too. such a cute little troll
 
2014-03-15 07:03:02 PM
So now we see the crowning victory, I mean utter and complete failure, of 5 years of Clinton/Obama policy.

It would be fair to say that Bush's handling was awkward and misguided at times. But he understood what Putin is and how you communicate with such a creature.

Obama policy is to make threats and do nothing. This is so clear now that he has no cards in his hand, and with no cards we are more likely to wind up in a major global conflict just as we are extricating ourselves from Afghanistan.

When you take no action and back away, things get more out of control, which in turn leads to bigger conflicts later. We can't jump into a war but we need to recognize that failing to act after issuing threats and ultimatums comes with a price. Obama is not big on foreign policy and he needs somebody better than nimrods like Kerry and Rice advising him.
 
2014-03-15 07:06:01 PM

Animatronik: So now we see the crowning victory, I mean utter and complete failure, of 5 years of Clinton/Obama policy.

It would be fair to say that Bush's handling was awkward and misguided at times. But he understood what Putin is and how you communicate with such a creature.

Obama policy is to make threats and do nothing. This is so clear now that he has no cards in his hand, and with no cards we are more likely to wind up in a major global conflict just as we are extricating ourselves from Afghanistan.

When you take no action and back away, things get more out of control, which in turn leads to bigger conflicts later. We can't jump into a war but we need to recognize that failing to act after issuing threats and ultimatums comes with a price. Obama is not big on foreign policy and he needs somebody better than nimrods like Kerry and Rice advising him.


..are you really THAT bummed that we're not at war in Syria right now?
 
2014-03-15 07:07:29 PM

Treize26: The Soviet Union also didn't begin invading it's western neighbors...


Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956
Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia

Oh, you mean Western neighbors with a capital W? Those were members of NATO, which Ukraine is not.
 
2014-03-15 07:08:21 PM

icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.


Why would it send such a message? Would we actually intend to use them?

Would *you* be willing to use them if Putin didn't "get the message"?

Shows of strength only work if you are actually willing to BACK THEM UP. Would you be willing to start WWIII?
 
2014-03-15 07:11:14 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


harmoniaphilosophica.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-03-15 07:11:25 PM

Animatronik: When you take no action and back away, things get more out of control, which in turn leads to bigger conflicts later. We can't jump into a war but we need to recognize that failing to act after issuing threats and ultimatums comes with a price.


We can't jump into a war, so charge ahead with a war?
 
2014-03-15 07:12:11 PM
And to think, this is only happening because the president emboldened Putin by wearing mom jeans.....
 
2014-03-15 07:15:55 PM

bim1154: Benghazi


DRINK!
 
2014-03-15 07:19:37 PM

Felgraf: icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.

Why would it send such a message? Would we actually intend to use them?

Would *you* be willing to use them if Putin didn't "get the message"?

Shows of strength only work if you are actually willing to BACK THEM UP. Would you be willing to start WWIII?


We may need to do more than sanctions but that the problem you're going to have with any "solution" that goes beyond sanctions. People want Obama to be more an empty suit but all other alternatives leads us on to a path were we're risking WW3. There's no middle ground.

If sanctions don't work, we are going to have to do something that risks WW3. We can only hope that we don't actually get WW3.
 
2014-03-15 07:21:18 PM

Animatronik: So now we see the crowning victory, I mean utter and complete failure, of 5 years of Clinton/Obama policy.

It would be fair to say that Bush's handling was awkward and misguided at times. But he understood what Putin is and how you communicate with such a creature.

Obama policy is to make threats and do nothing. This is so clear now that he has no cards in his hand, and with no cards we are more likely to wind up in a major global conflict just as we are extricating ourselves from Afghanistan.

When you take no action and back away, things get more out of control, which in turn leads to bigger conflicts later. We can't jump into a war but we need to recognize that failing to act after issuing threats and ultimatums comes with a price. Obama is not big on foreign policy and he needs somebody better than nimrods like Kerry and Rice advising him.


You do understand that Russia is the most internationally isolated that it's ever been, and that it's economy is EXTREMELY vulnerable right now, don't you?

The only winning move for them here was not to play, and they blew it, and now they're back to their original post-Soviet irrelevance.

Face it, when Obama took office, we were moving in the direction of a multi-polar world, with the US sharing global hegemony with the EU and China.  But now, 1 economic meltdown later, the US is back as the undisputed sole-superpower of the world.

And that just Drives.  You.  Crazy.
 
2014-03-15 07:24:34 PM
Has the Ukrainian government asked for western milItary intervention?

I'm just wondering because I can see some of the new Govt wondering if Russia taking over one of the poorest areas of the country that is almost entirely filled with ethnic Russians might not be the worst thing in the world - they lose a bunch of poor people and increase the proportion of the population who are Ukrainian, which would greatly reduce the chance of another pro-Russian government getting elected.
 
2014-03-15 07:27:57 PM

Target Builder: Has the Ukrainian government asked for western milItary intervention?

I'm just wondering because I can see some of the new Govt wondering if Russia taking over one of the poorest areas of the country that is almost entirely filled with ethnic Russians might not be the worst thing in the world - they lose a bunch of poor people and increase the proportion of the population who are Ukrainian, which would greatly reduce the chance of another pro-Russian government getting elected.


Assuming when all is said and done that it's just Crimea, then yes, the Kyiv gov't going forward will be -decidedly- more Western leaning, not only from losing all those pro-Russia votes that were in Crimea, but I imagine general attitude towards Russia among the general populace would have soured a bit as well.

That's a big IF though (Russia stopping at Crimea).
 
2014-03-15 07:30:12 PM
I reject the whole Obama has a Wimp Factor thing.

But who knows what Putin thinks.
 
2014-03-15 07:30:52 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Almost Everybody Poops: Now THAT'S effective foreign policy.

Do nothing.


Actually, we and our European Allies are going to begin sanctions on Monday. There really is no excuse for being this willfully ignorant.


Will you own that on Monday if it doesn't happen?
 
2014-03-15 07:33:00 PM

Cathedralmaster: Felgraf: icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.

Why would it send such a message? Would we actually intend to use them?

Would *you* be willing to use them if Putin didn't "get the message"?

Shows of strength only work if you are actually willing to BACK THEM UP. Would you be willing to start WWIII?

We may need to do more than sanctions but that the problem you're going to have with any "solution" that goes beyond sanctions. People want Obama to be more an empty suit but all other alternatives leads us on to a path were we're risking WW3. There's no middle ground.

If sanctions don't work, we are going to have to do something that risks WW3. We can only hope that we don't actually get WW3.


Dammit. I mean "more than an empty suit"...
 
2014-03-15 07:35:09 PM

netcentric: I reject the whole Obama has a Wimp Factor thing.

But who knows what Putin thinks.


He think like a life-long government bureaucrat who mysteriously holds a net worth of $70 billion, i.e. like a criminal.
 
2014-03-15 07:36:20 PM
He lives up to the legends.  Stalin, Lenin.  Tempting to call him an evil fascist dictator, however awesome he is.  But, review the region's culture.  It seems to be their way.  While it's not what we do, perhaps it's how they prefer it.  A dangerous situation, nonetheless.
 
2014-03-15 07:37:30 PM
Obama fiddled while Kiev burned.
 
2014-03-15 07:40:41 PM
Cathedralmaster:
If sanctions don't work, we...

I don't quite understand this thought. What scenario are you expecting here?
I wouldn't form strategies on how to fight someone that just lose their head to a mortar.
 
2014-03-15 07:40:52 PM

Animatronik: So now we see the crowning victory, I mean utter and complete failure, of 5 years of Clinton/Obama policy.

It would be fair to say that Bush's handling was awkward and misguided at times. But he understood what Putin is and how you communicate with such a creature.



"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul." - George W. Bush speaking about Putin in 2001

And then, after 8 years in the White House, Dubya sat there and did jack shiat while Putin invaded Georgia. There's your f*cking precedent set by an American president. So I can see why the GOP apologists want to downplay that bullshiat and point fingers in every other direction. The Bush years were such a culsterf*ck for this country and the rest of the world that you guys can't even admit that they happened. You just point the finger at the Dems who came before and after him without any justification purely to save face. What a farking embarrassment.
 
2014-03-15 07:41:32 PM

GoldSpider: Will you own that on Monday if it doesn't happen?



As much as you will if it does.
 
2014-03-15 07:59:45 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Not a single right wing retard in any of these Obama-bashing threads has offered up a single solution that goes beyond sanctions without starting WWIII. I guess the talking points from Rush and Breitbart didn't get to the part where they tell you what to think about actual actions we should be taking. This shiat is getting old, so put up or STFU.

And, no, "training exercises" and a carrier group in the region aren't going to do shiat. Dubya didn't start WWIII over Georgia, and we aren't starting WWIII over Ukraine. It does not matter who is in the White House, that is the American position. You're either with us or against us, right?


Convince Ukraine to shut off all power and water to Crimea, with the ultimatum that all Ukrainian infrastructure that delivers water and power to Crimea will be destroyed in one week.

Doesn't involve sending in troops or wetting your pants whilst drafting a strongly worded letter.

/have fun stretching water, power and NG lines across the Strait of Kerch, Boris
 
2014-03-15 08:03:22 PM
swamp_of_dumb:

Convince Ukraine to shut off all power and water to Crimea, with the ultimatum that all Ukrainian infrastructure that delivers water and power to Crimea will be destroyed in one week.

Doesn't involve sending in troops or wetting your pants whilst drafting a strongly worded letter.

/have fun stretching water, power and NG lines across the Strait of Kerch, Boris


That would almost certainly be viewed by Russia as an act of aggression and collective punishment against ethnic Russians in Crimea and would very likely be used as a pretense to invade more of Eastern Ukraine.
 
2014-03-15 08:07:38 PM

Begoggle: One demonstrator held up a plate of salo - cured pork fat that is a staple of Ukrainian cuisine and adored by many Russians - along with a poster that read: "Make salo, not war!"

I think I'd rather watch war than Salo


I hope you never find out where bacon comes from.

/salo and Hungarian Chile sandwiches are super delicious
 
2014-03-15 08:10:16 PM

swamp_of_dumb: shower_in_my_socks: Convince Ukraine to shut off all power and water to Crimea


The Ukrainian interim president has said this week that they will do no such thing. You would also hurt the ethnic Ukrainians and the Tatars.

And oh: it appears the Russians have seized a gas tower at Kerson .... that's North of Crimea, *inside* Ukraine.
 
2014-03-15 08:11:03 PM

TheGregiss: Will I get called a neocon. Again for saying Putin invading Ukraine is bad? Cause last time I got called a neocon.

/am I not a neocon if I'm sippin' that Putinaide?
//Putinborsche?


It's bad and wrong, but it's not our shiat sandwich. Ukraine, Russia, and the EU are the ones who need to take a juicy bite.
 
2014-03-15 08:27:30 PM

Almost Everybody Poops: bim1154: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Keep mouth shut instead of continuing to make an ass out of one's self.

Now THAT'S effective foreign policy.

Do nothing.


Better than drawing redlines that are gong to be ignored makign you look even weaker .  Better than making a meaningless gesture of giving the Ukranians MREs.  Those  things are all worse than doing nothing because they make you look weak and ineffective.  This has all the earmarks fo a bunch fo handwinging "but we have to do something" but to afraid to really do anything.

Like it or not folks Cold War II started years before this.  Russian has developed a deployed a new ICBM, New SLBM and new SSBN. It is refurbishing old bombers (granted not in great numbers) and is now doing the old game of overflights of US /NATO forces and incursions into our airspace.  There was the invasion of Georgia, the assistance to Syria and helping Iran with its Nuclear program and the sale of Weapons to Hugo Chavez.


As I have posted earlier  Time to start pushing back
 

Obviously not but you remember when Obama tried to reset the US Russian relationship by giving into Russian concerns about things like missile defense? Well you reverse course plus.
You start up Missile Defense in Poland and the Czech Republic again.

Plus:
You put an Expeditionary Air Wing in Poland on a 6 month rotation basis. (cheaper than the whole station personal over there for two to four years with their families nonsense). You do the same with an Army Armor or Mech. Brigade in the Czech Republic.

Also on rotation you put a Marine Air Ground Task Force in one of the Baltic states and form a Baltic Sea Squadron with some Arleigh Burke ABM capable Destroyers. You stick a Special Force training Team and Patriot battery in Georgia

To this I add    A Patriot battery and Military training teams in Kiev to protect equipment sent to and  help train Ukrainian forces in its use. We have thousands of APCs, IFVs tanks and.artillery not to mentions small arms much of it obsolete for our use but still serviceable.  Better still Some of our newer NATO allies have a lot stuff from their days as Soviet Union slaves that they would be happy to get rid of because it is not to NATO standard but the Ukrainians would already now how to use them


You pay for at least part of it by further reducing forces if not eliminating those in Germany Spain Italy etc.
You could ask our NATO "allies" to share the load but since most of them would get their panties in a wad don't count on it except the former Soviet slave states.
Of course this means rethinking your defense cuts and instead of cutting trigger pullers and equipment you start cutting back on civil servants, DoD and Service vice, deputy, assistant and under secretaries, Flag officers and all their staffs, Stateside DoD dependent schools etc, etc, etc, etc.
This would not even impact or pivot toward the Pacific that much if done right.
 
2014-03-15 08:32:46 PM
www.rbrides.com

livedoor.blogimg.jp

www.rbrides.com

4.bp.blogspot.com

www.struga.net
 
2014-03-15 08:34:50 PM

Peter von Nostrand: Stopped in for the right wingers fawning over putin because it makes Obama look bad, in their opinion. Leaving satisfied


We dont need Putin for that.  We have Obama for that.
 
2014-03-15 08:37:30 PM

bim1154: Strongly worded letter in the near future.... again.


No... massive economic sanctions that will hit Putin's kleptocrat political allies right in the wallet.
 
2014-03-15 08:40:54 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Not a single right wing retard in any of these Obama-bashing threads has offered up a single solution that goes beyond sanctions without starting WWIII. I guess the talking points from Rush and Breitbart didn't get to the part where they tell you what to think about actual actions we should be taking. This shiat is getting old, so put up or STFU.

And, no, "training exercises" and a carrier group in the region aren't going to do shiat. Dubya didn't start WWIII over Georgia, and we aren't starting WWIII over Ukraine. It does not matter who is in the White House, that is the American position. You're either with us or against us, right?


Ukraine was picking its noise.  Georgia was mid scale military action into  Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same.   Keep saying it, though.  Dubya and Georgia  Dubya and Georgia   Maybe even a few retards will believe it.
 
2014-03-15 08:42:22 PM

jnapier: [www.powerlineblog.com image 634x356]


What I see.

noweevil.com
 
2014-03-15 08:43:02 PM
So, where this is going is that, as more and more countries pursue nuclear weapons, we'll try to talk them out of doing so, and they'll justifiably tell us to fark right off.

What a world I'm bringing kids into.
 
2014-03-15 08:43:44 PM
GODDAMMIT, OBAMA, STOP EATING THOSE FARKING CRACKERS!!
 
2014-03-15 08:53:51 PM

BigNumber12: So, where this is going is that, as more and more countries pursue nuclear weapons, we'll try to talk them out of doing so, and they'll justifiably tell us to fark right off.

What a world I'm bringing kids into.


Nukes are completely out of the bag, man.  The technology is nearly 70 years old, maybe older than your Granny.
 
2014-03-15 08:53:59 PM
I was under the impression that the world would love and respect us if we elected Mr Hope & Change.

I want my money back.

I guess Denmark and Sweden like us a little more, but I still want my money back
 
2014-03-15 08:54:08 PM

The Bestest: Also, there was a UNSC vote this morning denouncing the Crimea referendum. It predictably failed due to Russian veto, but the vote was otherwise 13-0, with China abstaining.


I suppose it's unlikely that Russia knows or cares how pathetic they look by vetoing it.
 
2014-03-15 08:54:23 PM

BigNumber12: So, where this is going is that, as more and more countries pursue nuclear weapons, we'll try to talk them out of doing so, and they'll justifiably tell us to fark right off.

What a world I'm bringing kids into.


That's probably the one thing we'll mainly actually do things about, if not militarily.
Any threat of a new actor coming into nuclear weapons is generally met with the heaviest of sanctions and cyberattacks.
 
2014-03-15 08:56:17 PM

Bonzo_1116: Nukes are completely out of the bag, man.  The technology is nearly 70 years old, maybe older than your Granny.


Technology and means are completely separate animals.
 
2014-03-15 09:00:46 PM
How about we immediately admit the Ukraine into NATO, (or at least sign a defense treaty that is binding) and put a tripwire force into the Ukraine (if they want us) then offer to extend the offer to Georgia in if they aren't pulling out of Crimea in a week.  After that, we (the U.S. and the European Union) pledge a billion a day in additional spending to help wean our European allies off Russian fuel dependency.  If they are still there in a month we promise to recognize any portions of Russia that declare independence.

In the meanwhile, start shipping blankets to Europe.  It could be a cold rest of the winter.
 
2014-03-15 09:01:19 PM

Nutsac_Jim: shower_in_my_socks: Not a single right wing retard in any of these Obama-bashing threads has offered up a single solution that goes beyond sanctions without starting WWIII. I guess the talking points from Rush and Breitbart didn't get to the part where they tell you what to think about actual actions we should be taking. This shiat is getting old, so put up or STFU.

And, no, "training exercises" and a carrier group in the region aren't going to do shiat. Dubya didn't start WWIII over Georgia, and we aren't starting WWIII over Ukraine. It does not matter who is in the White House, that is the American position. You're either with us or against us, right?

Ukraine was picking its noise.  Georgia was mid scale military action into  Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same.   Keep saying it, though.  Dubya and Georgia  Dubya and Georgia   Maybe even a few retards will believe it.


Unless they hear it from the three Ms - Maddow, Matthews or Maher, to a liberal, it's not true.
 
2014-03-15 09:01:39 PM

icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.


Personally I would do something like that, along with insisting an full UN involvement in the coming election.  I'm ok with Crimea breaking away from the Ukraine and/or joining the Soviet Russia, so long as it really is the will of the Crimean people.  My main worry is the the election will be a farce.
 
2014-03-15 09:01:59 PM
Kill us Obama. Kill us all.
 
2014-03-15 09:04:05 PM

HoratioGates: How about we immediately admit the Ukraine into NATO, (or at least sign a defense treaty that is binding) and put a tripwire force into the Ukraine (if they want us) then offer to extend the offer to Georgia in if they aren't pulling out of Crimea in a week.  After that, we (the U.S. and the European Union) pledge a billion a day in additional spending to help wean our European allies off Russian fuel dependency.  If they are still there in a month we promise to recognize any portions of Russia that declare independence.

In the meanwhile, start shipping blankets to Europe.  It could be a cold rest of the winter.



static.comicvine.com

\sees what you did there.
 
2014-03-15 09:07:08 PM

ciberido: Personally I would do something like that


That's the equivalent of setting the can of kerosene next to the space heater.


along with insisting an full UN involvement in the coming election

That WAS insisted on, and summarily rejected by Russia.


I'm ok with Crimea breaking away from the Ukraine and/or joining the Soviet Russia, so long as it really is the will of the Crimean people.

It's a bit of a stretch, but would you be OK with California holding a referendum to join Mexico?
 
2014-03-15 09:14:41 PM
Seriously people Obama is doing all he can to force Putin to back the hell out of the Ukraine while trying avoid touching off what could devolve into The Third World war.

now for the UN security Council there needs to be either some manner of over turning a veto or if one of the permanent members is having sanctions against them voted on that they must abstain  from the vote automatically so as to prevent an abuse of their veto powers.
 
2014-03-15 09:19:01 PM
SithLord: Unless they hear it from the three Ms - Maddow, Matthews or Maher, to a liberal, it's not true. I interact with figments of my imagination because it's so much easier than dealing with real people.

FTFY
 
2014-03-15 09:24:10 PM

Animatronik: It would be fair to say that Bush's handling was awkward and misguided at times. But he understood what Putin is and how you communicate with such a creature.


By looking at how Bush stood by while Putin did something similar in Georgia?
 
2014-03-15 09:24:26 PM
Powerful strongman Obama will save us all!
 
2014-03-15 09:27:11 PM

HoratioGates: In the meanwhile, start shipping blankets to Europe.  It could be a cold rest of the winter.


Luckily it's been unseasonably warm over there this winter. Guess that's where all the Global Warming went.
 
2014-03-15 09:29:40 PM

Felgraf: icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.

Why would it send such a message? Would we actually intend to use them?

Would *you* be willing to use them if Putin didn't "get the message"?

Shows of strength only work if you are actually willing to BACK THEM UP. Would you be willing to start WWIII?


Obama gave up missile defense in eastern Europe without getting anything from Putin in exchange.  Maybe he should reconsider that decision.
 
2014-03-15 09:33:38 PM

Mrtraveler01: HoratioGates: In the meanwhile, start shipping blankets to Europe.  It could be a cold rest of the winter.

Luckily it's been unseasonably warm over there this winter. Guess that's where all the Global Warming went.


Last year, it suddenly started snowing on March 11th; we're not out of the woods yet.

But personally, I could get by, I'll happily wear a sweater or two, just to support the Ukrainians. I say let Putin close the taps, we'll see how fast he starts missing the cash.
 
2014-03-15 09:36:05 PM

flexflint: Mrtraveler01: HoratioGates: In the meanwhile, start shipping blankets to Europe.  It could be a cold rest of the winter.

Luckily it's been unseasonably warm over there this winter. Guess that's where all the Global Warming went.

Last year, it suddenly started snowing on March 11th; we're not out of the woods yet.

But personally, I could get by, I'll happily wear a sweater or two, just to support the Ukrainians. I say let Putin close the taps, we'll see how fast he starts missing the cash.


I wonder how long it will be before Russia starts missing Ukrainian agricultural products.  The frozen tundra is a shiat place to grow tasty things like food.
 
2014-03-15 09:41:23 PM

Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.


Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.
 
2014-03-15 09:44:08 PM

bsharitt: I'm not saying go to war, but maybe park a carrier group in the Black Sea and have the Air Force bases in Turkey and German do a few extra exercises just to see if Putin thinks things over.


Who cares? Why do you care? They dont care. Jesus. So farking what.
 
2014-03-15 09:44:47 PM

grimlock1972: Seriously people Obama is doing all he can to force Putin to back the hell out of the Ukraine while trying avoid touching off what could devolve into The Third World war.

now for the UN security Council there needs to be either some manner of over turning a veto or if one of the permanent members is having sanctions against them voted on that they must abstain  from the vote automatically so as to prevent an abuse of their veto powers.


I'd like to see them expand to 7, 9 or 11 members, replace the individual veto with a supermajority rule, and give each continent a representative.  Maybe EU, USA, Canada, Japan, Russia, China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Australia and someone else.  It will never happen, but at least it would make the Security Council somewhat useful.
 
2014-03-15 09:45:05 PM
I figured out how Obama can handle this.

He can run for office in Russia!

1. Gets Obama out of the US
2. polarize the citizens.
3. Will weaken their military
4. Will destroy their healthcare system
5. Lose respect of foreign countries, they'll see Russia as a pushover
6. Will get Russia deeply in debt
7. Make the rich, richer. Keeping the kleptocracy alive

And that's just the top 7. There really is no downside


sanderspoli323.files.wordpress.com
Come on Guys, we got him elected here, we can do it in Russia, then on to Iran, then North Korea, then The Netherlands
 
2014-03-15 09:46:44 PM

Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?


Farking nothing! Who cares??? Baltic people problems bro.
 
2014-03-15 09:49:40 PM

Por que tan serioso: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Farking nothing! Who cares??? Baltic people problems bro.


Euxine problems
 
2014-03-15 09:51:42 PM

The Bestest: icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.

Alright.. let's say someone gets drunk/triggerhappy/clumsy and someone.. either side, gets shot. Now what?


A bunch of poors 5000 miles away from anything I give a shiat about settle it like men and life as we know it goes on exactly like before.
 
2014-03-15 09:51:54 PM

Por que tan serioso: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Farking nothing! Who cares??? Baltic people problems bro.


Much funnier if you said "Caucus problems". Just leave it to the caucasians
 
2014-03-15 09:53:05 PM

Mrtraveler01: Animatronik: It would be fair to say that Bush's handling was awkward and misguided at times. But he understood what Putin is and how you communicate with such a creature.

By looking at how Bush stood by while Putin did something similar in Georgia?


It is similar in that it is Putin.  Everything else is different.      Georgia and Dubya.. Georgia and Dubya..  Georgia and Dubya.

Keep smoking the dope.
 
2014-03-15 09:55:03 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Peter von Nostrand: Libya is the perfect example of him getting involved and watching them lost their shiat. They have no opinion on anything until he acts


To this day, I still don't know if the GOP was for or against US military action in Libya.

And considering that CPAC backed the isolationist, anti-neocon Rand Paul, I suspect that they don't know either.


To this day the old lady trys to jam random household objects up my crack while yelling "Gaddafi!!!!" In sum, I dont know how I feel about it either.
 
2014-03-15 09:55:29 PM

Mentat: Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.

Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.


Enlighten us into how Putin tricked Georgia into invading Tskhinvali.
 
2014-03-15 09:58:19 PM
static5.therichestimages.com

I've got this.
 
2014-03-15 09:58:38 PM

BravadoGT: Obama gave up missile defense in eastern Europe without getting anything from Putin in exchange. Maybe he should reconsider that decision.


Yes, and in doing so he sent the message to them that we no longer view them as a credible counterweight to our global power, which has driven them absolutely crazy.

Seriously, you're underestimating what a head-case post-Soviet Russia is.
 
2014-03-15 10:02:29 PM

Bonzo_1116: BigNumber12: So, where this is going is that, as more and more countries pursue nuclear weapons, we'll try to talk them out of doing so, and they'll justifiably tell us to fark right off.

What a world I'm bringing kids into.

Nukes are completely out of the bag, man.  The technology is nearly 70 years old, maybe older than your Granny.



They're both dead - thanks for the reminder, though!

And yet, if you actually look at the world, nukes aren't completely out of the bag. 9 nuclear powers out of a total of 206 nations?! You're full of it. There are plenty of countries who would prefer not to go through the expense of building and maintaining a nuke collection. What Ukraine tells them is that they can never count on the West to actually back up promises of Defense if the aggressor is Russia or China. Quite a few countries in the neighborhood are going to reexamine their external reliance in light of Ukraine. Saudi Arabia is already heading that direction. Look for more if Russia and China get more and more enthusiastic about disrespecting the sovereignty of their neighbors.
 
2014-03-15 10:04:03 PM

studebaker hoch: [static5.therichestimages.com image 728x383]

I've got this.


It is fashion week in the Ukraine http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-fashion-week-shows-unbroken-spirit-war- l ooms-004839117.html;_ylt=AwrBJR6Q.CRT3FAA90rQtDMD

l1.yimg.com
 
2014-03-15 10:05:47 PM

udhq: BravadoGT: Obama gave up missile defense in eastern Europe without getting anything from Putin in exchange. Maybe he should reconsider that decision.

Yes, and in doing so he sent the message to them that we no longer view them as a credible counterweight to our global power, which has driven them absolutely crazy.

Seriously, you're underestimating what a head-case post-Soviet Russia is.


This would be happening if McCain had been elected in 2008, or Romney in 2012.  This has nothing to do with America, or Putin showing up Obama.  It has to do with Putin realizing that he's losing Russia's former allies in Eastern Europe, that they all want to bolt to the West if they can, and he wants to try to scare them into staying.  Nothing any President could have said would have stopped him from doing this, because he knows what we do: no one is gonna start WW III over this.

Maybe the Republicans will eventually figure out other countries act in what they view as their own self-interest (though is such a stupid play on Putin's part in so many ways), and it's not all about 'Murica.
 
2014-03-15 10:07:36 PM

BigNumber12: Bonzo_1116: BigNumber12: So, where this is going is that, as more and more countries pursue nuclear weapons, we'll try to talk them out of doing so, and they'll justifiably tell us to fark right off.

What a world I'm bringing kids into.

Nukes are completely out of the bag, man.  The technology is nearly 70 years old, maybe older than your Granny.


They're both dead - thanks for the reminder, though!

And yet, if you actually look at the world, nukes aren't completely out of the bag. 9 nuclear powers out of a total of 206 nations?! You're full of it. There are plenty of countries who would prefer not to go through the expense of building and maintaining a nuke collection. What Ukraine tells them is that they can never count on the West to actually back up promises of Defense if the aggressor is Russia or China. Quite a few countries in the neighborhood are going to reexamine their external reliance in light of Ukraine. Saudi Arabia is already heading that direction. Look for more if Russia and China get more and more enthusiastic about disrespecting the sovereignty of their neighbors.


That is exactly right.

That gushing sound is the power vacuum

Not to be confused with the sucking sound which is Obama
 
2014-03-15 10:08:43 PM

Nutsac_Jim: Mentat: Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.

Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.

Enlighten us into how Putin tricked Georgia into invading Tskhinvali.


You're saying Georgia invaded Russia unprovoked?
 
2014-03-15 10:09:15 PM

The Bestest: Any threat of a new actor coming into nuclear weapons is generally met with the heaviest of sanctions and cyberattacks.


And that's all we'll have at our disposal, even against "non-enemies" like Ukraine - people we'd prefer to be friends with - now that our promises are in danger of looking hollow.

Arrangements like Budapest are the "smart diplomacy" that people like to trot out as the solution to the world's international problems. It is very much in our best interest to show nations that are friendly to us that our word actually means something - the outcome of the Ukraine situation will be a very visible signal to similar countries about what alliance with the U.S. is actually worth.
 
2014-03-15 10:10:00 PM
l.yimg.com
 
2014-03-15 10:13:42 PM

BigNumber12: Bonzo_1116: BigNumber12: So, where this is going is that, as more and more countries pursue nuclear weapons, we'll try to talk them out of doing so, and they'll justifiably tell us to fark right off.

What a world I'm bringing kids into.

Nukes are completely out of the bag, man.  The technology is nearly 70 years old, maybe older than your Granny.


They're both dead - thanks for the reminder, though!

And yet, if you actually look at the world, nukes aren't completely out of the bag. 9 nuclear powers out of a total of 206 nations?! You're full of it. There are plenty of countries who would prefer not to go through the expense of building and maintaining a nuke collection. What Ukraine tells them is that they can never count on the West to actually back up promises of Defense if the aggressor is Russia or China. Quite a few countries in the neighborhood are going to reexamine their external reliance in light of Ukraine. Saudi Arabia is already heading that direction. Look for more if Russia and China get more and more enthusiastic about disrespecting the sovereignty of their neighbors.


Since with nukes it's more about the expense, and the fact that plenty more countries out there have nuke reactors for power, I'd say it is out of the bag.  Hellish power available to the highest bidder.

Pakistan is dirt poor and they have nukes, simply because they were willing to pay up and put their scientists and engineers to work on it and buy them the shiat they needed.  The info to make the damn things is available and understandable to third year undergrads in physics.

Delivery systems are a way harder tech challenge at this point, and with the rise of UAVs even that might be workable for those on a budget.
 
2014-03-15 10:15:09 PM

uber humper: Not to be confused with the sucking sound which is Obama


Don't do that. This is bigger than Obama. This is on our entire government, no matter which party is at the helm, and on our public to actually care about. We really need our National Word to actually mean something. Things will be much easier for the U.S. if the Ukraines of the world can simply say "we don't need Nukes because the West stands behind us," rather than needing to hack or threaten down every new country that decides to go nuclear because they don't feel they have any other option.
 
2014-03-15 10:22:37 PM

flexflint: Nutsac_Jim: Mentat: Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.

Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.

Enlighten us into how Putin tricked Georgia into invading Tskhinvali.

You're saying Georgia invaded Russia unprovoked?


Is  Tskhinvali  Russia?
 
2014-03-15 10:23:36 PM

Bonzo_1116: Since with nukes it's more about the expense, and the fact that plenty more countries out there have nuke reactors for power, I'd say it is out of the bag. Hellish power available to the highest bidder.

Pakistan is dirt poor and they have nukes, simply because they were willing to pay up and put their scientists and engineers to work on it and buy them the shiat they needed. The info to make the damn things is available and understandable to third year undergrads in physics.

Delivery systems are a way harder tech challenge at this point, and with the rise of UAVs even that might be workable for those on a budget.


We're converging on a sort of agreement. Nuclear weapons can absolutely be procured, arrangements entered into - though going nuclear on the cheap usually entails procuring pre-constructed weapons that will then age away and be maintained and guarded with far less attention than such weapons deserve. Not a good situation for anyone, particularly if the public sees government money being funneled into the military to the great detrement of public welfare. Total revolution in a third-world nuclear power would be a nightmare scenario.

But my point continues to be - the list of Declared (& Suspected) Nuclear Powers remains very small, despite that availability, due in large part to the expectation that the West, and the U.S. in particular, does not tend to tolerate one Nation's invading another. If that assurance becomes increasingly suspect, we will see more Saudi Arabias who decide to go their own way and become tin-pot nuclear powers. That happening is not in our best interest.
 
2014-03-15 10:23:45 PM

udhq: BravadoGT: Obama gave up missile defense in eastern Europe without getting anything from Putin in exchange. Maybe he should reconsider that decision.

Yes, and in doing so he sent the message to them that we no longer view them as a credible counterweight to our global power, which has driven them absolutely crazy.

Seriously, you're underestimating what a head-case post-Soviet Russia is.


My wife is post-Soviet Russian.  I have a pretty good idea.
 
2014-03-15 10:23:52 PM

BigNumber12: uber humper: Not to be confused with the sucking sound which is Obama

Don't do that. This is bigger than Obama. This is on our entire government, no matter which party is at the helm, and on our public to actually care about. We really need our National Word to actually mean something. Things will be much easier for the U.S. if the Ukraines of the world can simply say "we don't need Nukes because the West stands behind us," rather than needing to hack or threaten down every new country that decides to go nuclear because they don't feel they have any other option.


If there were a stronger man (or woman) as commander and chief, it could be different. Romney? Probably, not.  Regan or Maggie? Putin would probably would back down. Those guys would lay down the law, make unequivocal statements that they would stand behind. Putin's game is built around people folding, not people standing up. This is not how you deal with bullies. They will just be harder to deal with the future.  You have to be direct, crystal clear, and follow though. Not mud -- opaque and pliable.

Weakness is dangerous. It will lead to an overreaction. LEADERS ARE NEEDED. PLEASE APPLY!
 
2014-03-15 10:24:08 PM

The Bestest: ciberido: Personally I would do something like that

That's the equivalent of setting the can of kerosene next to the space heater.


along with insisting an full UN involvement in the coming election

That WAS insisted on, and summarily rejected by Russia.


Then it's an invasion, pure and simple, and military force should be used to stop Russia.  The ONLY excuse Russia has is "This is what the Crimean people want," and unless they can PROVE that with fair and free elections, there's no justification whatsoever.


The Bestest: ciberidoI'm ok with Crimea breaking away from the Ukraine and/or joining the Soviet Russia, so long as it really is the will of the Crimean people.

It's a bit of a stretch, but would you be OK with California holding a referendum to join Mexico?


Yes, at least in principle.  I wouldn't be thrilled about it, but if that was what they really, really wanted, I wouldn't send in tanks to stop it.
 
2014-03-15 10:28:17 PM

BravadoGT: My wife is post-Soviet Russian. I have a pretty good idea.


Congrats/Condolences.
 
2014-03-15 10:29:43 PM
BigNumber12:

But my point continues to be - the list of Declared (& Suspected) Nuclear Powers remains very small, despite that availability, due in large part to the expectation that the West, and the U.S. in particular, does not tend to tolerate one Nation's invading another. If that assurance becomes increasingly suspect, we will see more Saudi Arabias who decide to go their own way and become tin-pot nuclear powers. That happening is not in our best interest.

The sticking point is what precisely our disapproval consists of.  US Marines in Donetsk itching for a fight with Ivan?  Or is it the IMF freezing all banking transactions with Russian players?

And frankly, the US has been pretty loose on its interpretation on what sins rate an invasion in the last fifteen years.
 
2014-03-15 10:30:17 PM

The Bestest: ciberido: Personally I would do something like that

That's the equivalent of setting the can of kerosene next to the space heater.


Maybe.  Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.  Maybe there's all kinds of relevant information I don't have.  Maybe I'd plunge the world into World War III, and maybe it's a good thing I'm not in change.

Honestly, at the moment I'm not even trying to be practical or realistic.  It's more like I'm telling you what I would do if I were Superman or had an army of indestructible robots.  I make no claim that my ideas would really be what would work best in the real world.
 
2014-03-15 10:34:37 PM

ciberido: The Bestest: ciberido: Personally I would do something like that

That's the equivalent of setting the can of kerosene next to the space heater.

Maybe.  Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.  Maybe there's all kinds of relevant information I don't have.  Maybe I'd plunge the world into World War III, and maybe it's a good thing I'm not in change.

Honestly, at the moment I'm not even trying to be practical or realistic.  It's more like I'm telling you what I would do if I were Superman or had an army of indestructible robots.  I make no claim that my ideas would really be what would work best in the real world.


You handle it the way the Cold War was handled for 50 years.  You give the other guy two options: one that he can live with and the other he cannot. Let him make the decision.
 
2014-03-15 10:36:10 PM

Nutsac_Jim: Mentat: Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.

Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.

Enlighten us into how Putin tricked Georgia into invading Tskhinvali.


You identify populations within your target population that are ripe for exploitation.  Maybe it's a Russophone group.  You give them Russian passports, remind them how the central government doesn't appreciate them.  Maybe it's a separatist group that you arm and fund.  When the central government pushes back, Russia rushes in to protect the separatist population.  It's what Russia did in Moldova, Abkhazia and Georgia and it's what they're doing in Ukraine.
 
2014-03-15 10:38:00 PM
 
2014-03-15 10:40:09 PM

uber humper: If there were a stronger man (or woman) as commander and chief, it could be different. Romney? Probably, not. Regan or Maggie? Putin would probably would back down. Those guys would lay down the law, make unequivocal statements that they would stand behind. Putin's game is built around people folding, not people standing up. This is not how you deal with bullies. They will just be harder to deal with the future. You have to be direct, crystal clear, and follow though. Not mud -- opaque and pliable.

Weakness is dangerous. It will lead to an overreaction. LEADERS ARE NEEDED. PLEASE APPLY!


Damn right.  That's why we haven't heard a peep out of those Grenadan bastards.
 
2014-03-15 10:44:41 PM

Mentat: uber humper: If there were a stronger man (or woman) as commander and chief, it could be different. Romney? Probably, not. Regan or Maggie? Putin would probably would back down. Those guys would lay down the law, make unequivocal statements that they would stand behind. Putin's game is built around people folding, not people standing up. This is not how you deal with bullies. They will just be harder to deal with the future. You have to be direct, crystal clear, and follow though. Not mud -- opaque and pliable.

Weakness is dangerous. It will lead to an overreaction. LEADERS ARE NEEDED. PLEASE APPLY!

Damn right.  That's why we haven't heard a peep out of those Grenadan bastards.


Haha

It's also why the world didn't end sometime during the cold war.

I said weakness is dangerous. So it being unclear. Misunderstandings kill people.
 
2014-03-15 10:45:39 PM

ciberido: Maybe. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe there's all kinds of relevant information I don't have. Maybe I'd plunge the world into World War III, and maybe it's a good thing I'm not in change.


A world war in starting in Crimea right now would be an existential threat to exactly 2 groups of people:  those actually in Crimea, and Russians.  To everybody else, it would be more like Iraq2 than WW2.

In fact, I don't think you could even call it "World War 3", because Russia may not have a single ally in the conflict.
 
2014-03-15 10:48:14 PM
i.imgur.com

Ain't nobody got time for for dat!
 
2014-03-15 10:49:31 PM

udhq: ciberido: Maybe. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe there's all kinds of relevant information I don't have. Maybe I'd plunge the world into World War III, and maybe it's a good thing I'm not in change.

A world war in starting in Crimea right now would be an existential threat to exactly 2 groups of people:  those actually in Crimea, and Russians.  To everybody else, it would be more like Iraq2 than WW2.

In fact, I don't think you could even call it "World War 3", because Russia may not have a single ally in the conflict.


Biggie China.  Had and agreement since day one. What it's worth??  But I gotta say, it would be a nice time for China to grab a few islands
 
2014-03-15 10:49:39 PM

uber humper: It's also why the world didn't end sometime during the cold war.


Well, that and the fact that the USSR couldn't afford to buy bread.  But sure, Reagan.
 
2014-03-15 10:55:24 PM

Mentat: uber humper: It's also why the world didn't end sometime during the cold war.

Well, that and the fact that the USSR couldn't afford to buy bread.  But sure, Reagan.


They had to keep up with the mighty US. That ran them into the ground. The would not have had to spend all that dough on missiles if Obama where prez.Garry Kasparov said the other day he would still be a Soviet citizen if Obama were president instead of Regan.
 
2014-03-15 10:55:55 PM
.find_in_page{background-color:#ffff00 !important;padding:0px;margin:0px;overflow:visible !important;}.findysel{background-color:#ff9632 !important;padding:0px;margin:0px;overflow:visible !important;}Nutsac_Jim:

Ukraine was picking its noise.  Georgia was mid scale military action into  Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same.   Keep saying it, though.  Dubya and Georgia  Dubya and Georgia   Maybe even a few retards will believe it.


So if Canadian separatists seized 20% of Montana and the Montana and ND national guard mobilised to regain control of the territory you believe they deserve a spanking from Canadian forces because...

To be honest, Russia entered Georgia and US did nothing because Sjakasvili was a wee bit of a loon and Georgia is in central asia and noone cares. Ukraine is in Europe but Putin tried the same thing here, bolstered by the non response from Georgia invasion by Bush administration.

What people seem to not get is that Putin has just signed his exit papers, sure Crimea will most likely be Russian from now on but when economic sanctions start the Putin supporters with money in Cyprys, UK, Switzerland etc will turn on Kremlin like milk on a hot day.

Eastern Europe has tried for years to get away from Russian gas dependencies and this will probably get the EU to provide the needed funding to do that. Putin's other dreams of a eastern EU dominated by Russia is also gone, even Kazakstan is not moving away from Russia and that is a huge loss for Putin.

In effect, the best thing for Obama to do is what he is doing, starting sabre rattling like some people want will only provide Putin with the "external threat" he needs to hang on to power.

Kudos to the Ukrainian gov't that is doing everything rigth with non violent resistance and reliance on EU and US moral support.

Obama has done things right so far.
 
2014-03-15 11:00:48 PM

eurotrash: Obama has done things right so far.


That's what Putin said
 
2014-03-15 11:00:53 PM

uber humper: Biggie China. Had and agreement since day one. What it's worth?? But I gotta say, it would be a nice time for China to grab a few islands


Yeah, China is such a good friend to Russia that they abstained from voting against the resolution of condemnation at the UNSC.

There is just not a credible Axis here to take on the rest of the world.
 
2014-03-15 11:02:41 PM

udhq: uber humper: Biggie China. Had and agreement since day one. What it's worth?? But I gotta say, it would be a nice time for China to grab a few islands

Yeah, China is such a good friend to Russia that they abstained from voting against the resolution of condemnation at the UNSC.

There is just not a credible Axis here to take on the rest of the world.


Would it have benefit anyone if they had voted against the resolution or was it moot?
 
2014-03-15 11:05:46 PM
2.bp.blogspot.com

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.
 
2014-03-15 11:06:18 PM

uber humper: They had to keep up with the mighty US. That ran them into the ground. The would not have had to spend all that dough on missiles if Obama where prez.Garry Kasparov said the other day he would still be a Soviet citizen if Obama were president instead of Regan.


The USSR could have matched US military spending, even at double Reagan's Star Wars rates had Saudi Arabia not chosen to go after their share of the global petroleum market.
 
2014-03-15 11:06:44 PM

eurotrash: So if Canadian separatists seized 20% of Montana and the Montana and ND national guard mobilised to regain control of the territory you believe they deserve a spanking from Canadian forces because...


There are Canadian Separatists in Montana?  How many... two?
 
2014-03-15 11:12:58 PM

real_headhoncho: eurotrash: So if Canadian separatists seized 20% of Montana and the Montana and ND national guard mobilised to regain control of the territory you believe they deserve a spanking from Canadian forces because...

There are Canadian Separatists in Montana?  How many... two?


well since it's Montana it would probably only take one, but hey way to miss the point!
 
2014-03-15 11:14:23 PM

eurotrash: real_headhoncho: eurotrash: So if Canadian separatists seized 20% of Montana and the Montana and ND national guard mobilised to regain control of the territory you believe they deserve a spanking from Canadian forces because...

There are Canadian Separatists in Montana?  How many... two?

well since it's Montana it would probably only take one, but hey way to miss the point!


Why the hell would Canada want Montana?
 
2014-03-15 11:16:44 PM

uber humper: eurotrash: Obama has done things right so far.

That's what Putin said


just out of curiosity, what do you think US should have done that hasn't been done, I'll camp here for the response.
 
2014-03-15 11:18:26 PM

uber humper: Would it have benefit anyone if they had voted against the resolution or was it moot?


Like you keep insisting, appearances do matter.
 
2014-03-15 11:19:43 PM

udhq: uber humper: They had to keep up with the mighty US. That ran them into the ground. The would not have had to spend all that dough on missiles if Obama where prez.Garry Kasparov said the other day he would still be a Soviet citizen if Obama were president instead of Regan.

The USSR could have matched US military spending, even at double Reagan's Star Wars rates had Saudi Arabia not chosen to go after their share of the global petroleum market.


really? Their economy always sucked. Soviets never broke 40% of US GDP. Shortages in everything since Lenin

akarlin.com
 
2014-03-15 11:22:29 PM

udhq: uber humper: Would it have benefit anyone if they had voted against the resolution or was it moot?

Like you keep insisting, appearances do matter.


Tell them we will bomb airbases if they invade. But that wouldn't work for Obama, he wouldn't be believed so it would start a war. If a strong man were to say that, Putin would fold because he cannot survive an attack. They don't compare to us in the least, technology wise.  Chutzpah, they have.
 
2014-03-15 11:27:57 PM

eurotrash: uber humper: eurotrash: Obama has done things right so far.

That's what Putin said

just out of curiosity, what do you think US should have done that hasn't been done, I'll camp here for the response.



Sorry for the repeat, replied to the wrong message

Tell them we will bomb airbases if they invade. But that wouldn't work for Obama, he wouldn't be believed so it would start a war. If a strong man were to say that, Putin would fold because he cannot survive an attack. They don't compare to us in the least, technology wise.  Chutzpah, they have.
 
2014-03-15 11:28:23 PM

uber humper: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 554x730]

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.


Do you write bumper stickers for a living, dude?
 
2014-03-15 11:29:29 PM

uber humper: Tell them we will bomb airbases if they invade. But that wouldn't work for Obama, he wouldn't be believed so it would start a war. If a strong man were to say that, Putin would fold because he cannot survive an attack. They don't compare to us in the least, technology wise. Chutzpah, they have.


Oh, so Obama makes a threat and then Putin folds?  You mean EXACTLY what happened in Syria?
 
2014-03-15 11:31:30 PM

Keith Dudemeister: uber humper: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 554x730]

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.

Do you write bumper stickers for a living, dude?


No, but I could put that on cafepress.

Don't think I would have any orders from the DC area, though.
 
2014-03-15 11:31:39 PM
Can someone please explain why we cannot extend temporary "trial" or "probationary" status to the government of Ukraine? Have their parliament apply for a temporary evaluation membership with temporary protection through Article 5 on a limited 3 month term renewable contract as long as their military agrees to coordinate with NATO advisers as far as their actions? Write the contract where NATO is allowed temporary access to Ukraininan territory on a council reviewed basis. Give NATO the option to intervene legally for the protection of Ukrainian sovereignty during this trial period.
 
2014-03-15 11:35:45 PM

udhq: uber humper: Tell them we will bomb airbases if they invade. But that wouldn't work for Obama, he wouldn't be believed so it would start a war. If a strong man were to say that, Putin would fold because he cannot survive an attack. They don't compare to us in the least, technology wise. Chutzpah, they have.

Oh, so Obama makes a threat and then Putin folds?  You mean EXACTLY what happened in Syria?


You're confused, holmes. Putin said for America not to get involved, and America didn't.

Putin's op-ed http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from - russia-on-syria.html?smid=fb-share&_r=1&;

I gotta get to bed. Have a good evening.
 
2014-03-15 11:39:00 PM

uber humper: You're confused, holmes. Putin said for America not to get involved, and America didn't.


Except for when Obama shot an angry look, and Putin's client state unilaterally disarmed, with the only condition being "Please, Mr. Obama, don't hurt us."

Night, man.
 
2014-03-15 11:40:35 PM

Nutsac_Jim: flexflint: Nutsac_Jim: Mentat: Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.

Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.

Enlighten us into how Putin tricked Georgia into invading Tskhinvali.

You're saying Georgia invaded Russia unprovoked?

Is  Tskhinvali  Russia?


No. Just like Crimea, South Ossetia was wanting to separate from Georgia and possibly join Russia. However unlike Ukraine which sat idilly by, Georgia sent in their military which resulted in Georgia sending in theirs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War

So the two are very similar except with one difference. Ukraine didn't blink like Georgia did.
 
2014-03-15 11:43:52 PM

uber humper: Regan or Maggie? Putin would probably would back down. Those guys would lay down the law, make unequivocal statements that they would stand behind.


I know people like to think that these two made any difference but they really didn't. The USSR dissolved due to internal issues moreso than anything these two pinheads said.
 
2014-03-15 11:44:29 PM

Nutsac_Jim: flexflint: Nutsac_Jim: Mentat: Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.

Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.

Enlighten us into how Putin tricked Georgia into invading Tskhinvali.

You're saying Georgia invaded Russia unprovoked?

Is  Tskhinvali  Russia?


Crimea isn't either, but it almost was. Weeks ago, Putin started sending in guys to give everyone Russian passports. The same thing happened in South-Ossetia.
 
2014-03-15 11:46:40 PM

flexflint: Nutsac_Jim: flexflint: Nutsac_Jim: Mentat: Nutsac_Jim: Ukraine was picking its noise. Georgia was mid scale military action into Ossetian and they deserved a beating.

You are right, they are exactly the same. Keep saying it, though. Dubya and Georgia Dubya and Georgia Maybe even a few retards will believe it.

Putin provoked the conflict with Georgia.  He tried to do the same with Ukraine, but they didn't bite which is why he's left with Crimea.

Enlighten us into how Putin tricked Georgia into invading Tskhinvali.

You're saying Georgia invaded Russia unprovoked?

Is  Tskhinvali  Russia?

Crimea isn't either, but it almost was. Weeks ago, Putin started sending in guys to give everyone Russian passports. The same thing happened in South-Ossetia.


But South Ossetia was different because reasons and furthermore...
 
2014-03-15 11:47:57 PM

udhq: uber humper: You're confused, holmes. Putin said for America not to get involved, and America didn't.

Except for when Obama shot an angry look, and Putin's client state unilaterally disarmed, with the only condition being "Please, Mr. Obama, don't hurt us."

Night, man.


image.b4in.net

Sweet dreams

/supposedly, Putin in woman's underwear. Other is definitely  Medvedev
 
2014-03-15 11:58:47 PM

uber humper: udhq: uber humper: You're confused, holmes. Putin said for America not to get involved, and America didn't.

Except for when Obama shot an angry look, and Putin's client state unilaterally disarmed, with the only condition being "Please, Mr. Obama, don't hurt us."

Night, man.

[image.b4in.net image 213x320]

Sweet dreams

/supposedly, Putin in woman's underwear. Other is definitely  Medvedev


Goodbye erections, see you in 2 years.....
 
2014-03-16 12:02:00 AM

uber humper: eurotrash: uber humper: eurotrash: Obama has done things right so far.

That's what Putin said

just out of curiosity, what do you think US should have done that hasn't been done, I'll camp here for the response.


Sorry for the repeat, replied to the wrong message

Tell them we will bomb airbases if they invade. But that wouldn't work for Obama, he wouldn't be believed so it would start a war. If a strong man were to say that, Putin would fold because he cannot survive an attack. They don't compare to us in the least, technology wise.  Chutzpah, they have.


i am happy you are not in a position of power, start to bomb airbases in Russia is exactly the wrong thing to do. Aggressive behaviour like that would strengthen Putin's position and could possibly provoke China in to action regarding spratly islands.

I think you severly underestimate Russias ability regarding conventional strength, especially if you play in their backyard. Threatening that kind of action is pointless as everyone knows nothing would happen, no matter who is in the whitehouse.

US ability to project power with their carrier groups is also limited, moving into the black sea as someone said is just stupid, they'd be sitting ducks there, also how do you get a carrier group in through straits of Isthmus?

Although would get the russians opportunity to try out the shkval torpedo.

Best course of action now is what Obama is doing, any sabre rattling would be counterproductive, better to use Ukraine as proxy and prod Poland, baltics, Kazakstan to action.
 
2014-03-16 12:06:50 AM

BravadoGT: Felgraf: icemanwol: Sinbox: jnapier: If you he doesnt stop we are going to have our community organizer send a strongly worded letter

So, you're in Obama's shoes right now. What would YOU do?

Consult with the new government of Ukraine and work out some sort of deal to ship 20,000 troops to Kiev for a "Training exercise" with the Ukrainian military.  It would send a pretty strong message to Putin to buzz off.

Why would it send such a message? Would we actually intend to use them?

Would *you* be willing to use them if Putin didn't "get the message"?

Shows of strength only work if you are actually willing to BACK THEM UP. Would you be willing to start WWIII?

Obama gave up missile defense in eastern Europe without getting anything from Putin in exchange.  Maybe he should reconsider that decision.


Obama didn't give up missile defense in Europe. he just postponed it by a few years. by 2018 there will be a range of defenses in Poland & Romania for short & medium distance missiles instead of long range.

basically, eastern Europe will get a system that would be geared against an attack by Russia rather than Iran.
 
2014-03-16 12:11:21 AM

thehobbes: Can someone please explain why we cannot extend temporary "trial" or "probationary" status to the government of Ukraine? Have their parliament apply for a temporary evaluation membership with temporary protection through Article 5 on a limited 3 month term renewable contract as long as their military agrees to coordinate with NATO advisers as far as their actions? Write the contract where NATO is allowed temporary access to Ukraininan territory on a council reviewed basis. Give NATO the option to intervene legally for the protection of Ukrainian sovereignty during this trial period.


There is no need to get Ukraine in NATO, the Budapest memorandum is enough of a casus belli if US and UK would want it to be. Ukraine actually has a good international legal case against Russia on this alone.

Getting Ukraine into NATO now is just stupid and blustering from politicians that just want to make re election points, no one with actual responsibility would agree to that kind of stupid course of action.

Solution here is to give Putin enough rope to hang himself with
 
2014-03-16 12:15:55 AM

eurotrash: also how do you get a carrier group in through straits of Isthmus?


You were doing pretty well until this point.
 
2014-03-16 12:16:42 AM

netcentric: I reject the whole Obama has a Wimp Factor thing.


Fortunately, it's just something the US right wing has talked itself into.  I doubt any other world leader thinks of Obama as a pushover.
 
2014-03-16 12:16:42 AM

Keith Dudemeister: uber humper: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 554x730]

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.

Do you write bumper stickers for a living, dude?


Not to mention that man damn nearly started World War 3 in the Korean War. He wanted to drop 40 goddamn nukes on North Korea and actually tried to circumvent the President to do so.
 
2014-03-16 12:23:51 AM
uber humper: If there were a stronger man (or woman) as commander and chief, it could be different. ... Regan or Maggie? Putin would probably would back down.

Like Reagan persevered in Lebanon?  Seems like backing down to me.
 
2014-03-16 12:30:17 AM

uber humper: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 554x730]

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.


Of all the Manly Men you could have chosen, you picked him?  Ok.
 
2014-03-16 01:01:58 AM
Do we not have any former NBA players who can intervene?
 
2014-03-16 01:12:05 AM

eurotrash: There is no need to get Ukraine in NATO, the Budapest memorandum is enough of a casus belli if US and UK would want it to be. Ukraine actually has a good international legal case against Russia on this alone.


I'm not saying we have to accept them as full members, just allow NATO observers in country/joint exercises. Show of force all to prevent a war. Make Putin slow his expansion and give sanctions and the UN time to put more pressure on Russia. Dissidents and protesters are picking up steam in the Russian homeland. Do it  under the pretense of an evaluation period for the new government and make it get it to be at their request.

Ukraine has a legal case against Russia but any legal ramifications are going to take time. Let Brussels offer protection to a possible future member for an evaluation period and drag out the actual decision to add them as a member but give NATO a chance to slow military incursions. Having Turkey on board would bottle up the Black Sea fleet and make it useless. Let the public outcry grow about the situation, not let it seem like it is just the US/UK vs Russia.  Buy time, let the sanctions work, shore up the Ukrainian military.

Russia was spinning the narrative that the current Ukrainian administration is illegal and fascist. Show international military support. Russia is violating Ukrainian air space currently and they are waiting for the world to act. While it is of little concern to the average US citizen, the Poles are taking this as an extremely serious threat. Sanctions may back Putin into a corner and he has no problem harassing the Ukrainian military alone I doubt any Russian troop would disregard a NATO backed force as they have the Ukrainians so far 

As FARK scholars have pointed out, the Budapest memorandum doesn't specify the punishment for any aggression against Ukraine, only pledges we will not violate Ukraine sovereignty... which Russia has violated with no consequence as of yet. 

What is the consequence of allowing NATO into the country and allow an application period? Antagonizing the president who is attempting to annex the country that just overthrew his puppet?

In no way do I want to see World War 3. I hope this passes without violence, but I do think that forcing the Ukrainians to give up parts of their country as Putin sees fit. I can't imagine anyone in Europe wants to see the former Soviet states reunited by force.
 
2014-03-16 01:14:37 AM
you know the more i think about this entire mess, and how repubs are using it to bash Obama , i am willing to bet even if he wanted a declaration of war the house would probably vote against out it of fear a victory would make Obama look good.
 
2014-03-16 01:20:47 AM

uber humper: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 554x730]

We've purged our country of men.  Obama is the reflection of what we are now

We were something completely different.


So by men, you mean "batshiat bugfark crazy motherfarkers". That man was like a relic of a bygone era even when he was contemporary.
 
2014-03-16 02:09:54 AM

grimlock1972: you know the more i think about this entire mess, and how repubs are using it to bash Obama , i am willing to bet even if he wanted a declaration of war the house would probably vote against out it of fear a victory would make Obama look good.


The House tried to attach IRS reform to the Ukraine aid bill.  Even McCain stood up and called them assholes.
 
2014-03-16 02:43:31 AM

BigNumber12: eurotrash: also how do you get a carrier group in through straits of Isthmus?

You were doing pretty well until this point.


Meant Bosphorus, however why would you want to trap a carrier group in the black sea is beyond me.
Sending destroyers or a battleship group perhaps but it wouldn't be a wise thing to do.
 
2014-03-16 02:48:41 AM

BigNumber12: Russia invades a Russian village?

EVERYONE PANIC


I like it but it's a little nuanced for the Wal-Mart crowd. Can you make it even stupider?
 
2014-03-16 02:57:42 AM
thehobbes: eurotrash: There is no need to get Ukraine in NATO, the Budapest memorandum is enough of a casus belli if US and UK would want it to be. Ukraine actually has a good international legal case against Russia on this alone.

I'm not saying we have to accept them as full members, just allow NATO observers in country/joint exercises. Show of force all to prevent a war. Make Putin slow his expansion and give sanctions and the UN time to put more pressure on Russia. Dissidents and protesters are picking up steam in the Russian homeland. Do it  under the pretense of an evaluation period for the new government and make it get it to be at their request.

No need to involve NATO, send OSCE observers and go for a UN General Assembly vote to put observers in, the Ukraine can go to both Brussels and to the tribunal in Hague to argue cases they will win.
The whole point here is to pile on pressure on Putin so his cleptocratric pals will oust him from Kremlin.

Losing Crimea is not a huge thing for Ukraine, it's a poor area and for Russia to support it with gas, electricity and resources will be a logistical nightmare, there was a reason for Russia to give it to Ukraine before. Let Russia spend millions to get that going, Ukraine can cut support with the blessing of UN and Brussel later, they're doing the right thing now by keeping the support on.

This whole thing will be a decade long "battle", but the biggest mistake by Putin is that he can forget about his eastern alliance, even belarus is quietly pulling away...
 
2014-03-16 07:26:13 AM

eurotrash: Getting Ukraine into NATO now is just stupid and blustering from politicians that just want to make re election points, no one with actual responsibility would agree to that kind of stupid course of action.


Ukraine as a topic in American politics is just a re-election point. But with the US, unfortunately the election system is never ending
 
2014-03-16 09:29:28 AM
Anyone who thinks that Putin is invading Crimea because of Obama, or that he invaded Georgia because of Bush, is a partisan hack who is more interested in "Other side bad!" than the truth.

Here's why Putin did those things.

BECAUSE HE'S A farkING NUTJOB.
 
2014-03-16 11:01:35 AM

on the road: uber humper: If there were a stronger man (or woman) as commander and chief, it could be different. ... Regan or Maggie? Putin would probably would back down.

Like Reagan persevered in Lebanon?  Seems like backing down to me.


Don't confuse him with facts.
 
2014-03-16 11:10:23 AM

shower_in_my_socks: There is still a strong neocon thread running through this country that has a lot of people convinced that every single thing that happens in the world should warrant US involvement.


Blaming neocons for treaties liberals made is bass-ackward. The Budapest Memorandum was signed by President Bill Clinton, was he a "strong neocon"? I don't think he was a "strong neocon".

Where things stand today, the US and Britain have a treaty with Ukraine, so we are involved. This is not a political right or left issue, if anything this is a political left issue. But we are all involved now. There is no question of that. Yes it's true that we can ignore any treaty we like. It's also true this treaty was not voted on by the senate, so that gives us more leeway to ignore it. But keep in mind, the treaty to defend Ukraine's sovereignty was in exchange for them to denuclearize. That was on the liberal agenda that I support. Now Russia is testing our treaty. If the liberals do nothing, they are undermining their previous goals and that voids all the similar treaties we made for countries to denuclearize. That's a huge international problem, small countries making nukes is a problem for US security and we are directly involved.

Acting now with whatever means are necessary to prevent Russian expansion into Ukraine is the most reasonable course of action. I favor taking as limited action as necessary. Economic sanctions and even cutting off gas sales with Russia would be reasonable first steps. And I know that any action is going to be awful economically for the European gas situation and awful for troops if they become involved. The fact is our best choice may be to put troops on the ground. But if we don't take action we will be encouraging every small country to develop nukes because if our treaties are meaningless then that will be their only choice. And chances are some of those small countries will use their nukes from time to time.

President Clinton signed that document. We "liberals" are involved in this situation and there will be global repercussions if we ignore the situation.
 
2014-03-16 11:15:43 AM

steam_cannon: shower_in_my_socks: There is still a strong neocon thread running through this country that has a lot of people convinced that every single thing that happens in the world should warrant US involvement.

Blaming neocons for treaties liberals made is bass-ackward. The Budapest Memorandum was signed by President Bill Clinton, was he a "strong neocon"? I don't think he was a "strong neocon".

Where things stand today, the US and Britain have a treaty with Ukraine, so we are involved. This is not a political right or left issue, if anything this is a political left issue. But we are all involved now. There is no question of that. Yes it's true that we can ignore any treaty we like. It's also true this treaty was not voted on by the senate, so that gives us more leeway to ignore it. But keep in mind, the treaty to defend Ukraine's sovereignty was in exchange for them to denuclearize. That was on the liberal agenda that I support. Now Russia is testing our treaty. If the liberals do nothing, they are undermining their previous goals and that voids all the similar treaties we made for countries to denuclearize. That's a huge international problem, small countries making nukes is a problem for US security and we are directly involved.

Acting now with whatever means are necessary to prevent Russian expansion into Ukraine is the most reasonable course of action. I favor taking as limited action as necessary. Economic sanctions and even cutting off gas sales with Russia would be reasonable first steps. And I know that any action is going to be awful economically for the European gas situation and awful for troops if they become involved. The fact is our best choice may be to put troops on the ground. But if we don't take action we will be encouraging every small country to develop nukes because if our treaties are meaningless then that will be their only choice. And chances are some of those small countries will use their nukes from time to time.

President Clinton signed tha ...


Here's what the treaty has us do.

Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine. 
Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.

Which of these have we violated or not upheld?
 
2014-03-16 11:43:29 AM

eurotrash: thehobbes: eurotrash: There is no need to get Ukraine in NATO, the Budapest memorandum is enough of a casus belli if US and UK would want it to be. Ukraine actually has a good international legal case against Russia on this alone.

I'm not saying we have to accept them as full members, just allow NATO observers in country/joint exercises. Show of force all to prevent a war. Make Putin slow his expansion and give sanctions and the UN time to put more pressure on Russia. Dissidents and protesters are picking up steam in the Russian homeland. Do it  under the pretense of an evaluation period for the new government and make it get it to be at their request.

No need to involve NATO, send OSCE observers and go for a UN General Assembly vote to put observers in, the Ukraine can go to both Brussels and to the tribunal in Hague to argue cases they will win.
The whole point here is to pile on pressure on Putin so his cleptocratric pals will oust him from Kremlin.

Losing Crimea is not a huge thing for Ukraine, it's a poor area and for Russia to support it with gas, electricity and resources will be a logistical nightmare, there was a reason for Russia to give it to Ukraine before. Let Russia spend millions to get that going, Ukraine can cut support with the blessing of UN and Brussel later, they're doing the right thing now by keeping the support on.

This whole thing will be a decade long "battle", but the biggest mistake by Putin is that he can forget about his eastern alliance, even belarus is quietly pulling away...


Great insight to the whole mess- it is appreciated.
 
2014-03-16 12:50:26 PM

eurotrash: Losing Crimea is not a huge thing for Ukraine, it's a poor area and for Russia to support it with gas, electricity and resources will be a logistical nightmare, there was a reason for Russia to give it to Ukraine before. Let Russia spend millions to get that going, Ukraine can cut support with the blessing of UN and Brussel later, they're doing the right thing now by keeping the support on.


Ukraine is going to lose a huge chunk of its Navy and most of it's Black Sea ports.  That's kind of a big deal, especially when you've lost them to a country that considers you a breakaway province.
 
2014-03-16 01:35:32 PM

soseussme: BigNumber12: Russia invades a Russian village?

EVERYONE PANIC

I like it but it's a little nuanced for the Wal-Mart crowd. Can you make it even stupider?


Read explanation above. Attention-demanding 3-year-old, plus twins due tomorrow. I'm not my usual self.
 
2014-03-16 02:05:51 PM

BigNumber12: soseussme: BigNumber12: Russia invades a Russian village?

EVERYONE PANIC

I like it but it's a little nuanced for the Wal-Mart crowd. Can you make it even stupider?

Read explanation above. Attention-demanding 3-year-old, plus twins due tomorrow. I'm not my usual self.


If it's boys you should name them Vlad and Viktor
 
2014-03-16 02:48:47 PM

Bonzo_1116: BigNumber12: soseussme: BigNumber12: Russia invades a Russian village?

EVERYONE PANIC

I like it but it's a little nuanced for the Wal-Mart crowd. Can you make it even stupider?

Read explanation above. Attention-demanding 3-year-old, plus twins due tomorrow. I'm not my usual self.

If it's boys you should name them Vlad and Viktor


I'm already naming them Paddy and Paddy.

/ they do have Russian ancestry, though
// maybe I'll go with your suggestion
/// third slashy
 
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