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(BBC-US)   Good news: your house is on land the church owned 500 years ago. Now pay up   (bbc.com) divider line 80
    More: Fail, chancel repair liability, legal case, repairs  
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11278 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Mar 2014 at 1:23 PM (18 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-15 01:26:28 PM
Does nobody read the terms and conditions when they agree to these things?
 
2014-03-15 01:31:02 PM
It looks like a lot of the people are less concerned about the potential cost but are more concerned about the fact that 1) it isn't always disclosed that the property is liable and 2) it's affecting the property values once the churches exercise that right.

If this law is on the books I've got to imagine that there is some equally obscure law to get around it as well.  Something like donating a sheep to the local reverend or some farcical aquatic ceremony where a watery tart hands you a sword.
 
2014-03-15 01:31:51 PM
In Britain, the church is the state, and the inhabitants are subjects, not citizens.

How do you like the old woman on the money now, my cousins?

Also, I speak Brit, but I have never heard the term "advice surgery", which I can only guess is some sort of public meeting, or as the Americans in the northeast call it, a "town hall".
 
2014-03-15 01:34:57 PM

Makh: Does nobody read the terms and conditions when they agree to these things?


Does nobody RTFA?
 
2014-03-15 01:34:59 PM

Makh: Does nobody read the terms and conditions when they agree to these things?


A law dating back to Henry VIII, and whether or not the church has registered your property doesn't always show up on your deed of title?

Yeah, a clear case of the buyers not doing due diligence...
 
2014-03-15 01:36:56 PM
Title insurance must be a real biatch in Ye Olde England.
 
2014-03-15 01:37:14 PM
i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-03-15 01:41:58 PM
Getting together with your neighbours and hiring an arsonist to take care of the crumbling churches would be a cheaper option.
 
2014-03-15 01:43:14 PM

Jebdiahbob: It looks like a lot of the people are less concerned about the potential cost but are more concerned about the fact that 1) it isn't always disclosed that the property is liable and 2) it's affecting the property values once the churches exercise that right.

If this law is on the books I've got to imagine that there is some equally obscure law to get around it as well.  Something like donating a sheep to the local reverend or some farcical aquatic ceremony where a watery tart hands you a sword.


Look, supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses. If I went round, saying I was an emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me; they'd put me away!
 
2014-03-15 01:44:53 PM
Old nation problems.
 
2014-03-15 01:45:26 PM
We should leave England and start our own country!
 
2014-03-15 01:45:55 PM

iheartscotch: Jebdiahbob: It looks like a lot of the people are less concerned about the potential cost but are more concerned about the fact that 1) it isn't always disclosed that the property is liable and 2) it's affecting the property values once the churches exercise that right.

If this law is on the books I've got to imagine that there is some equally obscure law to get around it as well.  Something like donating a sheep to the local reverend or some farcical aquatic ceremony where a watery tart hands you a sword.

Look, supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses. If I went round, saying I was an emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me; they'd put me away!


Bloody peasant
 
2014-03-15 01:46:50 PM
Seems like a simple problem to fix.  It is a 500 year old law, repeal it!  Its not like the Church or England is a political powerhouse anymore.  You have representation in parliament, If they can't get a law repealed which benefits one small group at the expense of a larger group vote them out and try again.
 
2014-03-15 01:47:31 PM

Cheesehead_Dave: Old nation problems.


this.
 
2014-03-15 01:50:11 PM

skankboy: We should leave England and start our own country!


Nah...it'd never work.
 
2014-03-15 01:52:39 PM
HK-MP5-SD:  You have representation in parliament, If they can't get a law repealed which benefits one small group at the expense of a larger group vote them out and try again.

Y'mean like we do in the States?
 
2014-03-15 01:55:04 PM
This does not help the accusations churches are only in it for the money.  Hold a bake sale or something; twisting people's arms with medieval laws does not help the gospel of Christ.
 
2014-03-15 01:55:29 PM
This is why I'd like to see:  1) all laws expire after a specified time; or 2) require Congress to eliminate an old law for every new law enacted.  Preferably both.

If they want to pass some new law, they'll have to decide which old law will cause the least harm once it's eliminated.  It would be the legal equivalent of "survival of the fittest", and, IMHO, that would make for a much better body of laws.

Imagine the quandary that would put some lawmakers in: having to go on record to renew something like the '64 Civil Rights Act when they're closet racists and/or "small government" diehards!  Vote no and you'd lose or enrage a large population of voters.  Either way, they'd use that vote to challenge you in the next election, and a suddenly disenfranchised population just might finally vote your ass out of office!
 
2014-03-15 02:01:41 PM

HK-MP5-SD: Seems like a simple problem to fix.  It is a 500 year old law, repeal it!  Its not like the Church or England is a political powerhouse anymore.  You have representation in parliament, If they can't get a law repealed which benefits one small group at the expense of a larger group vote them out and try again.


No bills of attainder have been passed since 1820 in the UK.
 
2014-03-15 02:04:08 PM

indy_kid: This is why I'd like to see:  1) all laws expire after a specified time; or 2) require Congress to eliminate an old law for every new law enacted.  Preferably both.


I always thought this was a good idea. How can ignorance of the law NOT be an excuse when there is no possible way to learn millions of laws?
 
2014-03-15 02:04:34 PM

indy_kid: This is why I'd like to see:  1) all laws expire after a specified time; or 2) require Congress to eliminate an old law for every new law enacted.  Preferably both.

If they want to pass some new law, they'll have to decide which old law will cause the least harm once it's eliminated.  It would be the legal equivalent of "survival of the fittest", and, IMHO, that would make for a much better body of laws.

Imagine the quandary that would put some lawmakers in: having to go on record to renew something like the '64 Civil Rights Act when they're closet racists and/or "small government" diehards!  Vote no and you'd lose or enrage a large population of voters.  Either way, they'd use that vote to challenge you in the next election, and a suddenly disenfranchised population just might finally vote your ass out of office!


That is fine until Ted Cruz filibusters the law to make rape illegal since Obama is against rape.
 
2014-03-15 02:07:12 PM

skankboy: We should leave England and start our own country!


Take the assholes with you. There's a precedent to show they'll thrive, but still be assholes!
 
2014-03-15 02:08:09 PM
"And for each and every propety by which ye live upon, which is property owned in the present or at one time by the house of the Lord my father, maker of all lands and all that is known, ye shall pay inordinate sums of thine earthly profits to the registrant ecclesiastical owners of thine property, for thy holy upkeep and general wear-and-tear."

ACCOUNTANTS 2:16
 
2014-03-15 02:08:45 PM

GoldDude: Getting together with your neighbours and hiring an arsonist to take care of the crumbling churches would be a cheaper option.


Too bad these guys are dead or in jail:

www.anus.com

(bonus: hotlinked from "anus.com")
 
2014-03-15 02:10:38 PM
 GoldDude: Getting together with your neighbours and hiring an arsonist to take care of the crumbling churches would be a cheaper option.

So go from owing them for fairly minor repairs to owing them to rebuild an entire church?  Great idea Batman.

/well, unless you were advocating the burning of *The* Church rather than *a* church
 
2014-03-15 02:10:45 PM
Is Adverse Possession a legal principle in the UK?
 
2014-03-15 02:14:12 PM
Quick question: In the time that this was passed, was it expected that EVERYONE would pay this (noble and peasant) or just the nobility? If the former then you can't hold a single household responsible for what everyone in the area should be paying. If the latter, then whomever is the local Duke, Barron, or Earl should be paying (and not the homeowner unless they hold the title to the nobility that should be paying).
 
2014-03-15 02:15:31 PM

Seraphym: "And for each and every propety by which ye live upon, which is property owned in the present or at one time by the house of the Lord my father, maker of all lands and all that is known, ye shall pay inordinate sums of thine earthly profits to the registrant ecclesiastical owners of thine property, for thy holy upkeep and general wear-and-tear."

ACCOUNTANTS 2:16


I have a very real urge to print that out in old style script on parchment-like paper and hang it in my office.
 
2014-03-15 02:17:44 PM

HK-MP5-SD: Seems like a simple problem to fix.  It is a 500 year old law, repeal it!  Its not like the Church or England is a political powerhouse anymore.  You have representation in parliament, If they can't get a law repealed which benefits one small group at the expense of a larger group vote them out and try again.


Actually one couple ended up losing their case against the church on this because of the house of lords. Which are appointed and can't be voted out.
 
2014-03-15 02:19:59 PM

Jebdiahbob: It looks like a lot of the people are less concerned about the potential cost but are more concerned about the fact that 1) it isn't always disclosed that the property is liable and 2) it's affecting the property values once the churches exercise that right.


Part 1) is essentially what the government dealt with in 1993(ish) - they basically gave the churches that have these rights a decade to investigate and register them if they wished, at which point if the church in question wanted to maintain their rights they would be added to the title deed of the properties in question, I think that period is either over or finishes soon, so buyers will know whether they have such liabilities when they buy, and will have the details and risks explained to them by their solicitor (and probably it will just lead to affected properties having a small amount extra added to their insurance for most people affected).


It is affecting certain property values far more than it should due to confusion and uncertainty, which in theory should be resolved now or in the near future (when the registration period ends).


One thing people should note, is that as far as I am aware the only church that has used this law did so on a property that had the liability spelled out in their title deed, and the property had been bought for half the price of other nearby similar properties from what I remember.


Some church lawyer also wrote about the case and said it was probably a misunderstanding anyway - the church is question applied for a grant for the repairs from some charity/agency that funds such things, and one of their terms is that you must have exhausted all other options to fund before they would step in - and presumably whoever was dealing with it at the church was away of the Chancel Repair liability available to the church so they pursued it, when the more standard advice would be that pursuing such liabilities on properties that had not regularly contributed to the church maintenance in the past would not be needed to satisfy the terms of the grant in question.


Of course the church councils have been left with the option of either investigating and registering properties (and pissing off the owners), or letting it lapse (which potentially could make them liable personally if it was considered a dereliction of the fiduciary responsibilities to the church in basically giving away an asset).
 
2014-03-15 02:22:08 PM
Valiente:
Also, I speak Brit, but I have never heard the term "advice surgery", which I can only guess is some sort of public meeting, or as the Americans in the northeast call it, a "town hall".

That is a new one.  In America, I think it would refer to an invasive procedure to correct a case of cranio-rectal inversion.

"Does Bob still have his head up his arse?"
"Not anymore, Joe and I performed some field advice surgery."
"Good man.  Field conditions, huh?  Did you have enough whiskey for the anaesthetic and sterilization bits?"
"For Joe and I, yeah.  For Bob, not so much."
"Right-o.  So who is next on your advice surgery schedule...giving Paul his much overdue metatarsal-rectal graft?"
"My foot up his arse?  Pencil it in for next week."
 
2014-03-15 02:22:19 PM
"It is medieval madness," said the 41-year-old,

wrong.  img.fark.net
 
2014-03-15 02:28:21 PM

beverly8: "It is medieval madness," said the 41-year-old,

wrong.  [img.fark.net image 230x300]


Yeah, if that guy had bothered to look, he'd have seen it was clearly "KISS".
 
2014-03-15 02:31:24 PM

indy_kid: This is why I'd like to see:  1) all laws expire after a specified time;


That would great in the US with Republicans in Congress. The law for murder expires on such a such a date, and unless billionaires get a tax cut then murder will become legal.
 
2014-03-15 02:33:41 PM

Ishidan: Valiente:
Also, I speak Brit, but I have never heard the term "advice surgery", which I can only guess is some sort of public meeting, or as the Americans in the northeast call it, a "town hall".

That is a new one.  In America, I think it would refer to an invasive procedure to correct a case of cranio-rectal inversion.

"Does Bob still have his head up his arse?"
"Not anymore, Joe and I performed some field advice surgery."
"Good man.  Field conditions, huh?  Did you have enough whiskey for the anaesthetic and sterilization bits?"
"For Joe and I, yeah.  For Bob, not so much."
"Right-o.  So who is next on your advice surgery schedule...giving Paul his much overdue metatarsal-rectal graft?"
"My foot up his arse?  Pencil it in for next week."


Pencilling in an arse-footing is a good way to snap off the tip.
 
2014-03-15 02:42:17 PM

hitlersbrain: How can ignorance of the law NOT be an excuse when there is no possible way to learn millions of laws?


If you think the government wants you to be informed, try rattling off a section of the motor vehicle code to a cop who just pulled you over by mistake. But you might want to bring a bandage to wrap up the crack he'll put in your skull.
 
2014-03-15 02:46:22 PM

Seraphym: "And for each and every propety by which ye live upon, which is property owned in the present or at one time by the house of the Lord my father, maker of all lands and all that is known, ye shall pay inordinate sums of thine earthly profits to the registrant ecclesiastical owners of thine property, for thy holy upkeep and general wear-and-tear."

ACCOUNTANTS 2:16


/ I will profit from this
// with your permission of course
/// land surveyor
 
2014-03-15 02:49:27 PM

Jebdiahbob: It looks like a lot of the people are less concerned about the potential cost but are more concerned about the fact that 1) it isn't always disclosed that the property is liable and 2) it's affecting the property values once the churches exercise that right.

If this law is on the books I've got to imagine that there is some equally obscure law to get around it as well.  Something like donating a sheep to the local reverend or some farcical aquatic ceremony where a watery tart hands you a sword.


A waiver from the King.
 
2014-03-15 02:50:45 PM

Valiente: In Britain, the church is the state, and the inhabitants are subjects, not citizens.

How do you like the old woman on the money now, my cousins?

Also, I speak Brit, but I have never heard the term "advice surgery", which I can only guess is some sort of public meeting, or as the Americans in the northeast call it, a "town hall".


Was thinking that too.  I'm assuming that they are using surgery in a similar fashion to how surgery is used to refer to a doctors office, and not just the actual practice of surgery.
 
2014-03-15 02:54:01 PM

DigitalCoffee: Quick question: In the time that this was passed, was it expected that EVERYONE would pay this (noble and peasant) or just the nobility? If the former then you can't hold a single household responsible for what everyone in the area should be paying. If the latter, then whomever is the local Duke, Barron, or Earl should be paying (and not the homeowner unless they hold the title to the nobility that should be paying).


Most likely the laws simple states Landowner.  Which at the time would have been a Noble, as commoners did not own land.  But now that commoners can be land owners, they are subject to the same laws.  Yay?
 
2014-03-15 02:56:00 PM
Just ask the government to refund all of the property tax you & your ancestors were paying on the churches land for the last 500 years. Donate what the church is asking for from that and write it off as a tax receipt.
 
2014-03-15 02:56:20 PM
Geez, just ask people who live in housing developments where the land's mineral rights are owned by someone else and improvements in technology have now allowed that oil deep in the ground under the development can now be drilled for, what it's like to get screwed.  Some developers fail to tell potential homeowners about the "mineral rights thing", so I guess it's kind of a shock when a company starts putting up pumps throughout the development.
 
2014-03-15 02:57:38 PM
"No, we don't have to pay your charges.  We spoke to God, and we've got an understanding.  You may want to contact Him."
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-03-15 02:57:40 PM
It's basically like living in a tax overlay district. We have them in America for schools, water plants, sewers, etc. In England they have them for local churches.

The huge fee in the article is the legal fee for somebody trying to sue for the right not to pay taxes. In England, the loser pays.
 
2014-03-15 03:01:16 PM

xria: indy_kid: This is why I'd like to see:  1) all laws expire after a specified time;

That would great in the US with Republicans in Congress. The law for murder expires on such a such a date, and unless billionaires get a tax cut then murder will become legal.


There is no Federal law regarding murder.  That's a state thing.
 
2014-03-15 03:01:24 PM

hitlersbrain: indy_kid: This is why I'd like to see:  1) all laws expire after a specified time; or 2) require Congress to eliminate an old law for every new law enacted.  Preferably both.

I always thought this was a good idea. How can ignorance of the law NOT be an excuse when there is no possible way to learn millions of laws?


Whew, glad you guys aren't part of any legislative body.
 
2014-03-15 03:03:12 PM

boinkingbill: Geez, just ask people who live in housing developments where the land's mineral rights are owned by someone else and improvements in technology have now allowed that oil deep in the ground under the development can now be drilled for, what it's like to get screwed.  Some developers fail to tell potential homeowners about the "mineral rights thing", so I guess it's kind of a shock when a company starts putting up pumps throughout the development.


Did you post in the wrong thread?  How is this even remotely related?
 
2014-03-15 03:12:22 PM

GoldDude: Getting together with your neighbours and hiring an arsonist to take care of the crumbling churches would be a cheaper option.


I was thinking exactly this. I suspect the church would back down if every time they sent a notice someone put a rock through a $10000 stained-glass window.
 
2014-03-15 03:13:01 PM
I think that's just how they do business in Stottesdon.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-03-15 03:27:34 PM

Makh: Does nobody read the terms and conditions when they agree to these things?


When you have to scroll through 40 pages of text?
 
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