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(Science 2.0)   Hank Campbell clarifies his stance on Venus' "Greenhouse Effect" saying, "You might as well call the greenhouse effect 'Smurf' and be done with it." OK then   (science20.com) divider line 134
    More: Followup, smurf, greenhouse effect, Alessandra Ambrosio, Universe Today, carbon dioxide  
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3019 clicks; posted to Geek » on 14 Mar 2014 at 2:15 PM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-14 06:03:51 PM  
The problem with the public image of astronomy is that every time something happens that might get people interested in space, exploration, astronomy (e.g.Gravity, Cosmos), some astronomer goes on to pedantically ridicule them for not being exactly 100% accurate, despite that accuracy being beyond the scope of its purpose.

If they wanted to create a totally show that accurately displayed the likelihood of happening across recognizable matter (asteroids, comets, planets, stars, whatever), they may as well just broadcast a blank screen 24/7 now until oblivion.

/best NdGT impression
//billions and billions of nothing
///still nothing
////nothing yet
/*10^25 I'm sure we'll see something soon.
 
2014-03-14 06:05:26 PM  

sprawl15: what ever happened to that nuclear winter, too.


We didn't have a nuclear war do my recollection but I was pretty much drunk and stoned through much of the 80's.
 
2014-03-14 06:05:29 PM  
In space, no one can hear you derp.
 
2014-03-14 06:11:12 PM  

THE GREAT NAME: Climate change alarmists accuse skeptics of being anti-science for much the same reasons corrupt pharmaceutical companies do. Except being on the left, the climatists say "it's OK when we do it, because we're the good guys". Actually believing this circular argument is pretty much the definition of left wing politics.


Did you just accuse someone of using circular arguments with a circular argument spinning around a strawman?
 
2014-03-14 06:13:27 PM  
Science 2.0: It is the 4Chan of Science but not as smart.
 
2014-03-14 06:29:06 PM  
Venus clearly doesn't have a GREENHOUSE effect, because there are no plants on Venus!

King me.
 
2014-03-14 06:34:17 PM  

lockers: Essentially Venus is really really dry, which is not like the earth.


You actually bolded the less-derpy part of that:

Without liquid water to dissolve the CO2 from things like volcanoes - as it does on Earth - CO2 went crazy and boosted the heat even more. But the CO2 was the effect, not the cause.

... So CO2 warms things up but isn't the reason things are warm.  Gotcha.
 
2014-03-14 06:35:04 PM  

sprawl15: Regardless, CO2 did not cause the poisonous conditions on Venus; instead, CO2 is an effect of the poisonous conditions on Venus. Invoking the greenhouse effect when talking about Venus is like blaming ocean liners for inventing barnacles.


This: Plus the fact that Venus has an atmosphere 90 times denser than Earth. If Earth's atmosphere were to magically become 90 times denser it would mean the end of life on Earth even with ZERO CO2 in the atmosphere. It's not the composition, it's the density.
 
2014-03-14 06:36:09 PM  
The multiverse idea is usually currently formulated in branal theories, where D-brane intersections can describe the spacetime of a universe of interactions.  These are actually testable models.  For one, they imply that there may be observations of deeper intersections.  Or there may be remnants from the big bang of previous intersections.  In fact, some fingerprints in the cosmic background have been interpreted in this way.

Check one.

The greenhouse effect did cause the rise in temperature on Venus.  That is clear.  Causes of causes does not invalidate the first causal relationship.  No one says (except maybe this waste): "The rocky material in the solar system was not caused by a previous sun's nucleosynthesis that was dispersed after it's subsequent supernova because that sun was caused by there being an excess of hydrogen that gravitationally collapsed.  So that nucleosynthesis was an effect of the excess hydrogen and not a cause of our rocky material."  Causation doesn't work like that.  You would think someone who desperately wants to argue the first cause pseudo argument would not bite themselves in the knee so easily.

Check.

Giordano Bruno's story has been central to the cause of science for a long time.  The point is that Galileo was indeed intimidated from pursuing his research and recanted precisely because of the example of Bruno.  Railing against fundamentalism-by-intimidation by discussing Bruno is perhaps the most relevant way to do this, though clearly there was Darwin and other cases later.  But they were later.

And Hermeticism is nothing as described.  Yes, it is belief in magic, but that last sentence is about the only real truth there.  Hermes in Hermeticism is Hermes Trismegistus, not the god, and the Thoth connection has a lot more gnostic appreciation for appearances and emanations of magical ritual and much less to do with Egyptian mythology.  This part is horribly painful.

Check.

And if you want to argue against literalism, then do so.  Grow a pair.  Say how silly creationism is to your mostly creationist audience and stand up for something.  Afraid of being burned at the stake?

Goose.
 
2014-03-14 07:08:56 PM  

kronicfeld: THE GREAT NAME: Climate change alarmists accuse skeptics of being anti-science for much the same reasons corrupt pharmaceutical companies do. Except being on the left, the climatists say "it's OK when we do it, because we're the good guys". Actually believing this circular argument is pretty much the definition of left wing politics.

Sup, Hank?


Nice.
 
2014-03-14 07:09:13 PM  
Put her in your blog.

dkue3ufa3e1f8.cloudfront.net

She still aint gonna let you put it in her, pencil-dick.
 
2014-03-14 07:13:46 PM  

HighZoolander: THE GREAT NAME: HighZoolander: THE GREAT NAME: Climate change alarmists accuse skeptics of being anti-science for much the same reasons corrupt pharmaceutical companies do. Except being on the left, the climatists say "it's OK when we do it, because we're the good guys". Actually believing this circular argument is pretty much the definition of left wing politics.


Actually believing what you just typed is the definition of hurr durr derp.


Nice in-depth rebuttal there. Ah, but you think you're one of the good guys, so reason and logic are strictly optional, right?

I'm confident that I gave it the appropriate amount of depth.


Thisthreaddelivers.bat
 
2014-03-14 07:18:41 PM  
On the subject of Giordano Bruno, does anyone remember the reference to him in the original Cosmos? Giordano Bruno crater on the moon was likely made by an asteroid impact  ~800 years ago, witnessed by the Canterbury Monks, and their observations were meticulously recorded. Also as Carl Sagan pointed out, it's not just religion that tries to silence views it disagrees with, scientists themselves have been guilty of it.

"Science is a self-correcting process. To be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny."
"The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science."

Carl Sagan, Cosmos episode 4 - Heaven and Hell.
 
2014-03-14 08:08:27 PM  
From the comments:

I want to thank you for some soberness in your review, What these multiverse disciples seem to miss, is this; if an infinite multiverse exist then every conceivable god, from TFSM right to Jesus exist with absolute certainty. Multiverse theory makes ALL gods an absolute guarantee.....

Um yeah, no. Just because there would be infinite universes doesn't mean that everything imaginable is possible somewhere. What if there are infinite empty universes and one with stuff?
 
2014-03-14 08:33:20 PM  

skozlaw: echo '127.0.0.1 www.science20.com' >> /etc/hosts
/etc/init.d/networking restart

[memecrunch.com image 552x414]


wtf Posix OS needs to restart networking for a new /etc/hosts entry to work?  You have some sort of DNS cache active?
 
2014-03-14 08:34:12 PM  
Multiverse theory is a mathematical construct originated as an "easy way" to explain delocalization and entropy at the same time, and to give an analogous physical context to certain interactions.  It's not a literal, physical thing (by definition, since different 'universes' are by definition non-interacting) but it is nonetheless a legitimate way to look at a few of the big physics phenomena.
 
2014-03-14 08:37:58 PM  
"To go on this journey, we need to be "free from the shackles of space and time", Tyson tells us. And apparently all of the other laws of physics. Why can we hear his spaceship when he is exploring the cosmos?"

Look dude, if you can hear Tyson, you should be able to hear anything he can hear, like the engine noise of any ship he's riding in physically conducted through the body of the spaceship.

Radio!

Duh!
 
2014-03-14 09:28:48 PM  
Smurf this guy, smurf him up his smurf.
 
2014-03-14 09:57:57 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Multiverse theory is a mathematical construct originated as an "easy way" to explain delocalization and entropy at the same time, and to give an analogous physical context to certain interactions.  It's not a literal, physical thing (by definition, since different 'universes' are by definition non-interacting) but it is nonetheless a legitimate way to look at a few of the big physics phenomena.


Someone should probably tell this to Brian Greene, because when he was discussing it on NPR he *absolutely* discussed it as if it were a literal, physical thing.
 
2014-03-14 10:01:44 PM  

give me doughnuts: kronicfeld: This guy is a whiny c*nt. I must have missed the first article, but of his complaints, the only one that really has any traction is "3. There Is No Sound In Space." I can't imagine that NDT had any hand in or editorial control over the post-production effects, though.

It's rare to see spacecraft on television or in the movies where the ships don't make noise. "2001" and "Firefly" spring to mind.

Can anyone else think of some examples?


You know noise in a real spacecraft consists of fans running, various machinery noises, gurgling plumbing, and your colleagues farting and incessantly huMMIING THAT DAMN SONG!
 
2014-03-14 10:07:38 PM  

jigger: From the comments:

I want to thank you for some soberness in your review, What these multiverse disciples seem to miss, is this; if an infinite multiverse exist then every conceivable god, from TFSM right to Jesus exist with absolute certainty. Multiverse theory makes ALL gods an absolute guarantee.....

Um yeah, no. Just because there would be infinite universes doesn't mean that everything imaginable is possible somewhere. What if there are infinite empty universes and one with stuff?


This has always been a problem with people having limited understanding of mathematics. If you have any quality that can be expressed in infinite varieties (color, position, etc), you can have an infinite number of universes where not only has everything not happened, but only one trivial quality of one object has been changed.
 
2014-03-14 10:22:51 PM  

Khellendros: jigger: From the comments:

I want to thank you for some soberness in your review, What these multiverse disciples seem to miss, is this; if an infinite multiverse exist then every conceivable god, from TFSM right to Jesus exist with absolute certainty. Multiverse theory makes ALL gods an absolute guarantee.....

Um yeah, no. Just because there would be infinite universes doesn't mean that everything imaginable is possible somewhere. What if there are infinite empty universes and one with stuff?

This has always been a problem with people having limited understanding of mathematics. If you have any quality that can be expressed in infinite varieties (color, position, etc), you can have an infinite number of universes where not only has everything not happened, but only one trivial quality of one object has been changed.


I saw this episode of Futurama
 
2014-03-14 10:49:58 PM  

Khellendros: jigger: From the comments:

I want to thank you for some soberness in your review, What these multiverse disciples seem to miss, is this; if an infinite multiverse exist then every conceivable god, from TFSM right to Jesus exist with absolute certainty. Multiverse theory makes ALL gods an absolute guarantee.....

Um yeah, no. Just because there would be infinite universes doesn't mean that everything imaginable is possible somewhere. What if there are infinite empty universes and one with stuff?

This has always been a problem with people having limited understanding of mathematics. If you have any quality that can be expressed in infinite varieties (color, position, etc), you can have an infinite number of universes where not only has everything not happened, but only one trivial quality of one object has been changed.


The best way I can describe this to people is "There are an infinite number of numbers between 1 and 2. None of those numbers is three."
 
2014-03-14 11:46:01 PM  
The Venus greenhouse effect argument made is spurious because he's inferring that Venus was a cool world that became what it is because of CO2. Cosmos stated that CO2 is why Venus is so hot, which is true.

The rest of the arguments against Cosmos are pedantry run riot. Whiny isn't even the start of it.

Hank Campbell sounds like a kid unhappy that his mother took him off the tit when he hit puberty.
 
2014-03-14 11:58:30 PM  
Two Hank Campbell greenlights almost in a row is two Hank Campbell greenlights too many.

/shut the fark up, Hank Campbell
 
2014-03-15 12:42:16 AM  

TheOther: Put her in your blog.

[dkue3ufa3e1f8.cloudfront.net image 356x404]

She still aint gonna let you put it in her, pencil-dick.


Ah...can I get some of that to go?  Yeah, I'll eat it when I get home.
 
2014-03-15 12:58:43 AM  
Basically, Venus is now hot because, in the early part of its history, it did not have enough water.
If it had more water in the beginning, it would not be the hell hole it is now.
Water acts as both a heat sink and a CO2 sequestering sink (in both dissolving directly and as a needed component for life which acts as a temporary sink). Without the necessary amount of water, What little it did have, evaporated into space and the CO2 amounts kept increasing leading to the high pressure, and thus, extreme high temps we see today.
 
2014-03-15 02:18:48 AM  

All2morrowsparTs: Science 2.0: It is the 4Chan of Science but not as smart.


Or more like the Bleacher Report for science.
 
2014-03-15 02:20:06 AM  
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
 
2014-03-15 03:09:18 AM  

hamdinger: [i.imgur.com image 425x317]
[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 447x286]


took me a sec to get it.
d.d.o.p.
/now I'm hungry
 
2014-03-15 04:18:56 AM  

lockers: misanthropologist: His ocean liners and barnacles comparison in the other article is a flawed metaphor for the argument he's trying to make.

I think the part where he said global warming is the same thing as saying greenhouse effect is where the where the wheels fell off of his argument.


You're right, no intelligent person would think the greenhouse effect has anything to do with any measurable change in the Earth's overall climate. The problem is, a lot of absolute morons keep making that exact claim because that's what idiots at cable news networks keep saying.
 
2014-03-15 08:05:29 AM  
what you silly monkeys fail to realize it is that whether or not I believe in global warming, if I live long enough for it to make this planet uninhabitable I'll have probably moved on through the cosmos to find another planet to consume.
 
2014-03-15 09:42:54 AM  

stonelotus: if I live long enough for it to make this planet uninhabitable I'll have probably moved on through the cosmos to find another planet to consume.


We're around .9C of warming. The chief real scientist of the deniers is actually a luke-warmer. (Lindzen) He's predicting 1.5C of warming. (That's per doubling of CO2 at short time scales. Not total warming.) The same year Russia and Australia lost their crops to drought, Pakistan lost theirs to flood. That was (IIRC) 3-4 years ago. Two summers ago, temps in Kansas killed corn in the field.

Moral of the story. Unless denialist think we're vacating the planet around 2025, they're going to live to see the damage. (Sea level rise is window dressing. Agriculture has always been where the threat lay.) Me? I favor Nuremberg-like trials to make it official.
 
2014-03-15 12:08:49 PM  

zimbomba63: TheOther: Put her in your blog.

[dkue3ufa3e1f8.cloudfront.net image 356x404]

She still aint gonna let you put it in her, pencil-dick.

Ah...can I get some of that to go?  Yeah, I'll eat it when I get home.


I don't know myself, but I hear pencil dick leftovers are nowhere near as good as fresh.
 
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