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(NYPost)   Wells Fargo quite literally wrote the manual on how to evict people from homes for which the bank didn't hold a legal mortgage   (nypost.com) divider line 89
    More: Sick, southern district, federal courts, Wells Fargo, proper authority  
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11293 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Mar 2014 at 5:43 PM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-13 07:42:15 PM  
Doesn't surprise me. I used to work near one of Wells Fargo's really large offices in Wisconsin and based on the way those people act in real life (example: Driving like complete idiots when leaving / coming into work and standing in the middle of the road so they can smoke cigs and NOT move for roadway traffic) This sort of behavior from them is no shock and proves these people are a$$hats both publicly and professionally. What some lowlifes.
 
2014-03-13 07:43:51 PM  
Why'd you buy a house, again?
 
2014-03-13 07:43:56 PM  
You want something other than complaints?

Open notepad.


Buy things you can afford without loans as much as possible.  Skip big ticket items you can't afford unless they are necessary to your survival.  Pay all your credit cards down to nilch and stop using them.   Maintain your home and car out of cash on hand.  Shop locally and spend the extra 2 to 4% to support something other than an 757 hangars full of Chinese crap.  Source locally.  Put your money on the counters where local owners hire local workers.  Get the lowest possible useful insurance premiums.  Stop eating at fast food restaurants.  Avoid any and all loans or credit when possible.  Get your tech, cars, clthing and household items from local resale as much as possible.  Buy gas at indie stations.  Give as littel money to the utility companies as possible.  And don't stop doing it.  When they piss and moan about "shrinking profits", do it more and then sue them class action when the rates go up and the product stays the same.


ta da.
 
2014-03-13 07:46:21 PM  
I completely believe  that before a bank can foreclose they need to present all paper work to a judge and wait  while its independently verified, during this time the party who has the delinquent mortgage must be informed that the process of foreclosure has begun and they must be allowed to present evidence showing that they are up to date on payments or the bank is otherwise in error.

If the bank try to foreclose with bad or falsified papers or the bank is in error  they must  pay the legal fees for the person you tried to foreclose and the mortgage may be rendered void giving the home owner clean title if the paper work is fraudulent.  If a ban tries to foreclose on ahouse the hold no mortgage on they must pay the himeowners the value of the home as restitution for the false foreclosure.

Make this law and  you would see banks getting their shiat together and making sure their paper work meets muster.
 
2014-03-13 07:46:24 PM  

LtDarkstar: Doesn't surprise me. I used to work near one of Wells Fargo's really large offices in Wisconsin and based on the way those people act in real life (example: Driving like complete idiots when leaving / coming into work and standing in the middle of the road so they can smoke cigs and NOT move for roadway traffic) This sort of behavior from them is no shock and proves these people are a$$hats both publicly and professionally. What some lowlifes.


Some of "those people" are you people, but with a name tag and a paycheck they can't cash without being part of the problem.
 
2014-03-13 07:49:38 PM  

Anayalator: Maybe they thought it was a Wachovia mortgage. Remember when they bought Wachovia for $12b after we gave them $50b in TARP funds? Oh man, that was awesome. Instead of "TARP funds" we should have called it "TARP FUN!"


700 billion. Wonder where it all went. Meh. Who cares.
 
2014-03-13 07:54:54 PM  
If you looked at the evictees, would you say that Wells Fargo made their decision based on race or age? Just asking.
 
2014-03-13 07:56:23 PM  
BofA didn't need a manual, they just winged it.
 
2014-03-13 07:59:07 PM  
There's always somebody who would rather eat as a lap dog than starve with the rest of the prisoners.  There's always somebody who never read about Milgram.

Warren Buffet said "There is a class war.  And our class is winning."


So what leverages could we possibly have against multi-billionires?


Stop feeding them 3.99 at a time, every day, every 10 minutes whenever and wherever you can.  Leviathans are filter feeders.  And every nickel you hand them makes them fat.   And ever dollar you don't puts a wrench in their sh*t.  There is no other movement available.  There is no other revolution at hand that wont get us killed.  Vote with your wallets.  That, for now, IS the revolution.  And if it's just a tad too inconvenient, shut the f*ck up and stop whining.
 
2014-03-13 08:34:42 PM  

d23: Many, many, many people were thrown out of their homes in an illegal way and, if they were lucky, were only paid back a few pennies on the dollar.


I call BS on this claim.

As Loren points out, there are just two cases in this thread where a bank foreclosed when the homeowner was not delinquent.   Two cases out of how many foreclosures?

Yes, you can claim that mortgages were sold and resold and securitized into tranches until the paper trail was murky and it was difficult to demonstrate that the particular bank doing the foreclosure was the "true owner" of the debt.    But was there a debt, and out of the "many many people" who were thrown out, all but two of them missed multiple mortgage payments.

If you  borrow money with a house as collateral then fail to make payments, why act shocked when you are evicted?   You can try to make this about bad paperwork, but in the end, with two exceptions, everybody in foreclosure admittedly borrowed a huge sum of money and stopped making payments.
 
2014-03-13 08:35:13 PM  

d23: Magorn: Don;t be so Sure. There is a reason that Well et al cut that $25 billion settlement check to the State attorneys general over this behavior. And I have no doubt that Wells will seek dismissal of this suit precisely on the grounds that they settlement check covered this naughtiness as well.

Pennies on the dollar.  No one even NEAR to being made whole.  Corporate larceny done right under the nose of politicians paid off by campaign cash.  And, to top it all off, the CEOs that so many people worship are Millionaires because of the cash that was made off came from corporate stealing.  And so many people shrug and say "it's only business" and continue to call these criminals "smart" on CNBC.


if it makes you feel any better, thanks to Lizzie Warren,  they got a much bigger  chunk taken out of their hides than they almost did.  They were ready to settle for $5 billion when Liz had her economists at CFPB figure out just how much the baks had saved by cutting all those corners.  The number came back at $20 billion, which is why the settlement jumped to 25 billion
 
2014-03-13 08:47:16 PM  

RanDomino: MechaPyx
I might have a smidgeon of sympathy for the banks if they weren't routinely foreclosing on properties they don't own or have any legal title to. Their shenanigans have cost them any goodwill I might have had. Fark 'em. If they can't get their shiat together then the mortgage should be declared defunct and the current owner given full title clear and free. Attempts to create paperwork retroactively should be regarded as fraud and dealt with accordingly. Those who've been the victim of this sort of bullshiat should be compensated accordingly.

if "would"s and "should"s were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry christmas

what are you doing beside complaining on the internet?

the rest of you can feel free to answer this as well


Well, I don't have a bank account for one thing.

RanDomino: MechaPyx
I might have a smidgeon of sympathy for the banks if they weren't routinely foreclosing on properties they don't own or have any legal title to. Their shenanigans have cost them any goodwill I might have had. Fark 'em. If they can't get their shiat together then the mortgage should be declared defunct and the current owner given full title clear and free. Attempts to create paperwork retroactively should be regarded as fraud and dealt with accordingly. Those who've been the victim of this sort of bullshiat should be compensated accordingly.

if "would"s and "should"s were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry christmas

what are you doing beside complaining on the internet?

the rest of you can feel free to answer this as well


I don't have debt. I don't have credit cards. I don't have a mortgage or even a bank account. I expect at some point in the future I will eventually have a bank account again. Ideally I'd like to not do business with banks at all but that's not realistic so I'll try to find a smaller, local bank to use(if there are any left).
 
pla
2014-03-13 08:47:59 PM  
Look, Wells Fargo et al have attained a level of evil that threatens to depose the very Devil himself.  But TFA ain't the reason.  TFA basically describes them violating a technicality, and not (as TFS makes it sound) Wells Fargo going around evicting random people with no connection to them (spare me the random links to cleanout contractors screwing up - Yes, mistakes happen, get over it).

 These evictions remove people deep under water from overpriced houses with a mortgage they never should have gotten.  If you don't pay Rent-A-Center for your couch, they take it away.  If you don't pay Chrysler your monthly car payment, they take it away.  And if you don't pay your mortgage... Can anyone spot the pattern here?  Right: They take it away.

 The sheer scale of this problem makes it a borderline atrocity, but lets spare all the feelgood BS...The very Boobies in this thread already nailed it: Banks evict deadbeats.  Simple as that.  The entire situation has no moral high-ground.  Bank sucks, mortgage brokers suck, deadbeat "owners" suck, and bailing the banks out instead of lining their CEOs up against a wall sucks.  But no one deserves the least bit of sympathy (much less righteous indignation) in all that.
 
2014-03-13 08:49:12 PM  
Meh. Farked that one up. My kingdom for an edit feature.
 
2014-03-13 08:52:08 PM  

ChicagoKev: d23: Many, many, many people were thrown out of their homes in an illegal way and, if they were lucky, were only paid back a few pennies on the dollar.

I call BS on this claim.

As Loren points out, there are just two cases in this thread where a bank foreclosed when the homeowner was not delinquent.   Two cases out of how many foreclosures?

Yes, you can claim that mortgages were sold and resold and securitized into tranches until the paper trail was murky and it was difficult to demonstrate that the particular bank doing the foreclosure was the "true owner" of the debt.    But was there a debt, and out of the "many many people" who were thrown out, all but two of them missed multiple mortgage payments.

If you  borrow money with a house as collateral then fail to make payments, why act shocked when you are evicted?   You can try to make this about bad paperwork, but in the end, with two exceptions, everybody in foreclosure admittedly borrowed a huge sum of money and stopped making payments.


What's your point? Foreclosure is basically using the other party for not fulfilling contract terms. There are specific laws and procedures for foreclosing on someone. You have to have all your t's crossed and your ducks in a row. We're the foreclosed owners wrong for not paying. Absolutely. But the bank has to go through the proper channels to foreclose. Should they be able to go to the judge without proper paperwork? "Just trust us. We don't have the proper paperwork, but we can legally take the property." Just because the debtors are deadbeats, doesn't mean you don't have to show proper cause for foreclosure. The ends don't justify the means.
 
2014-03-13 08:55:09 PM  

Delay: If you looked at the evictees, would you say that Wells Fargo made their decision based on race or age? Just asking.


Did Satan or Obama make them do it?

Just asking.
 
2014-03-13 09:09:06 PM  
I know somebody whom WF is trying to screw over related to mortgage payments. "Tried" is the operative word because it may not be quite legal, and since the law is being waved in WF's faces, they may concede the point.

reminds me of an apartment i lived in over summer in college - the daughter of our crazy old landlady barged in and said she was having painters coming in 2 days. "I hope you're flexible because I'm not," she said, all snotty-like, probably thinking us young college kids were all weak-willed dumbasses who wouldn't do anything.

One of my roommates, a gadfly type, looked it up in some renter's rights handbook, and told her that what she was doing was against the law. The landlady's daughter backed down real quick.

\this particular landlady's daughter not to be confused with the landlord's daughter in Wicker Man
 
2014-03-13 09:15:11 PM  

bunner: MassAsster: I'm still amazed how how many people continue to give these banks business. If you want change, stop using them!

So, if you stop feeding rabid animals, they starve?  Whooda thunk.,


Are you suggesting that the banks are trying to give me...
Fever
Headache
Nausea
Vomiting
Agitation
Anxiety
Confusion
Hyperactivity
Difficulty swallowing
Excessive salivation
Fear of water (hydrophobia) because of the difficulty in swallowing
Hallucinations
Insomnia
Partial paralysis?

I
 
2014-03-13 09:23:29 PM  

bunner: There's always somebody who would rather eat as a lap dog than starve with the rest of the prisoners.  There's always somebody who never read about Milgram.

Warren Buffet said "There is a class war.  And our class is winning."


So what leverages could we possibly have against multi-billionires?


Stop feeding them 3.99 at a time, every day, every 10 minutes whenever and wherever you can.  Leviathans are filter feeders.  And every nickel you hand them makes them fat.   And ever dollar you don't puts a wrench in their sh*t.  There is no other movement available.  There is no other revolution at hand that wont get us killed.  Vote with your wallets.  That, for now, IS the revolution.  And if it's just a tad too inconvenient, shut the f*ck up and stop whining.


Nice if they can be avoided.  Goldman, JPMC & friends, continue to work the money as product angle whenever & wherever they can.  My most recent favorite was their slipping through the regulatory needle's eye on Bank Holding Companies.  They became the silent, controlling partners of the London Metals Exchange (outside of U.S. reg. control) and, though the LEM only had a hold on 5% of the can aluminum market, were able to gouge the manufacturers that required can aluminum (soda & beer CO.s for instance) by holding up the physical product already purchased through contract (warehoused & only released if a premium was ponied up) and, when the manufacturers attempted to buy directly from aluminium metal producers, they discovered the the LEM was already offering those entities more than the can manufacturers already owed on their LEM contracts (including the premium for `storage'), an interesting hearing. the testimony of Tim Weiner, the Global Risk Manager of Commodities and Metals for MillerCoors  is a good place to start:   http://www.banking.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View& F ileStore_id=9b58c670-f002-42a9-b673-54e4e05e876e
Do everything to avoid their machinations - then sit back, put up your feet, pop open a cold one and they'll still be nicking you on that beer...

Gramm, Leach, Bliley gets an Enron loophole & Gramm's wife becomes an exec. at Enron.  Rep. Billy Tauzin, R LA, steered Medicare Part D through the House (no discount for you, Uncle Sam).  So, Dallas Fed. estimates that Part D added 17 trillion onto long term debt, which is 3 trillion more than unfunded portion of Social Security will be owed over the next 75yrs.  Tauzin took a million a year job as boss of big pharma's primary lobbying org., Greenspan was encouraged to invoke the 1994 HOEPA, which would have shut down the unregulated mortgage originators' and the subsequent repackaging of the rotted spawn, upstream, but Greenspan was the `sophisticate's' tool, etc.

Only way to disrupt the game is to grass root (for) a Constitutional Amendment that requires Public Only financing of all elections, and Requires absolute transparency of all lobbying of elected/appointed officials (no meetings/trans of info that isn't posted up within 24hrs of mtg./receipt of `suggested' legislation) with mandatory 5 yr. minimum for any `lack of clarity'.
 
2014-03-13 09:31:48 PM  
Oh yeah, once again...

imageshack.com

If the law applied to them they would not need to die. Arrrrrrrh.

/My NSA profile must look really bad right now as if I would be patriotic or something.
 
2014-03-13 09:51:31 PM  

Crazy Lee: bunner: There's always somebody who would rather eat as a lap dog than starve with the rest of the prisoners.  There's always somebody who never read about Milgram.

Warren Buffet said "There is a class war.  And our class is winning."


So what leverages could we possibly have against multi-billionires?


Stop feeding them 3.99 at a time, every day, every 10 minutes whenever and wherever you can.  Leviathans are filter feeders.  And every nickel you hand them makes them fat.   And ever dollar you don't puts a wrench in their sh*t.  There is no other movement available.  There is no other revolution at hand that wont get us killed.  Vote with your wallets.  That, for now, IS the revolution.  And if it's just a tad too inconvenient, shut the f*ck up and stop whining.

Nice if they can be avoided.  Goldman, JPMC & friends, continue to work the money as product angle whenever & wherever they can.  My most recent favorite was their slipping through the regulatory needle's eye on Bank Holding Companies.  They became the silent, controlling partners of the London Metals Exchange (outside of U.S. reg. control) and, though the LEM only had a hold on 5% of the can aluminum market, were able to gouge the manufacturers that required can aluminum (soda & beer CO.s for instance) by holding up the physical product already purchased through contract (warehoused & only released if a premium was ponied up) and, when the manufacturers attempted to buy directly from aluminium metal producers, they discovered the the LEM was already offering those entities more than the can manufacturers already owed on their LEM contracts (including the premium for `storage'), an interesting hearing. the testimony of Tim Weiner, the Global Risk Manager of Commodities and Metals for MillerCoors  is a good place to start:   http://www.banking.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View& F ileStore_id=9b58c670-f002-42a9-b673-54e4e05e876e
Do everything to avoid their machinations - then sit back, pu ...


Like term limits, who the fark is going to back that?

Career politicians need to go.
 
2014-03-13 10:56:14 PM  

Tommy Moo: The article's content doesn't even justify its own headline, let alone subby's. This is nothing more than Wells Fargo documenting a method of preventing delinquent homeowners from avoiding foreclosure via a legal loophole.


Proving you actually own the mortgage before throwing someone out on the street is a legal loophole?
 
2014-03-13 10:58:11 PM  
bunner
You want something other than complaints?

Quiet, I already have you favorite'd.


pla
Look, Wells Fargo et al have attained a level of evil that threatens to depose the very Devil himself. ... But no one deserves the least bit of sympathy (much less righteous indignation) in all that.

So we end up with millions of homeless people and millions of peopleless homes.


StoPPeRmobile
Career politicians need to go.

Okay, so what's the plan to make this a reality, beside posting on the Internet
 
2014-03-13 11:42:43 PM  
If I had a button, and every time I pressed the button a banker died painfully, I would never stop pushing that button.
 
2014-03-14 01:25:09 AM  

pla: Look, Wells Fargo et al have attained a level of evil that threatens to depose the very Devil himself.  But TFA ain't the reason.  TFA basically describes them violating a technicality, and not (as TFS makes it sound) Wells Fargo going around evicting random people with no connection to them (spare me the random links to cleanout contractors screwing up La la la I can't hear you - Yes, mistakes happen, get over it).


Carrying water for billion dollar criminals is not going to get Paris Hilton to sleep with you.  Mistakes do not "happen".  Mistakes are made.  And when mistakes are made, the ones who made them should pay.  No, not just the convenient fly-by-night "contractors" whom the big banks employ to take the blame for their screwups and then fold up shop and reappear in another state.  They should pay, but once they're stripped of all assets down to the last paperclip, the banks should pay too.  If the banks don't like paying for their farkups, they should take responsibility for their own actions.  You know -- that personal responsibility that you right wing loons are always prattling about.

 The sheer scale of this problem makes it a borderline atrocity, but lets spare all the feelgood BS...The very Boobies in this thread already nailed it: Banks evict deadbeats.  Simple as that.  The entire situation has no moral high-ground.  Bank sucks, mortgage brokers suck, deadbeat "owners" suck, and bailing the banks out instead of lining their CEOs up against a wall sucks.  But no one deserves the least bit of sympathy (much less righteous indignation) in all that.

How about whatever person or corporation does, in fact, hold the mortgage?  Who does in fact have the right to foreclose, and to decide whether or not it is in their best interest to foreclose or cut the borrower some slack?  Who then finds their property stolen out from under them by some organized crime syndicate with a charter?  Did you useful idiots for billion dollar gansters ever think about that?
 
2014-03-14 07:36:41 AM  

Magorn: DonZAZ: Nothing in the article says Wells Fargo was doing anything worse than throwing out deadbeats. It is consistent with the bank acting on primarily based on MERS records and checking paperwork only when paperwork is requested. The big banks can afford lawyers who know better than to create an actually incriminating document, as opposed to one that reporters can imagine is incriminating.

I have mentioned before some corporate antitrust training I had to go through. It taught us how to avoid creating evidence that would look bad in court. It had nothing to do with avoiding antitrust violations. Any anticompetitive policies were defined and implemented by top management, not ordinary cubicle occupants. I'm sure there is a similar division in Wells Fargo. You have the people who decide whether the company is evil, and you have other people who make sure all the paperwork describes a company that stays on the right side of the law.

Don;t be so Sure.   There is a reason that Well et al cut that $25 billion settlement check to the State attorneys general over this behavior.  And I have no doubt that Wells will seek dismissal of this suit precisely on the grounds that they settlement check covered this naughtiness as well.

Having title vested in MERS itself was a violation of the law in nearly every state it was used in


So the state gets 25 billion. Good for them. What about the people who got screwed over? Does the state not care as long as they make a tidy profit?
 
2014-03-14 07:48:27 AM  
"We have one simple business rule and it's focused on one word - courtesy".
 -Henrey Wells
 
2014-03-14 08:03:54 AM  

bunner: Don't worry.  The damage that no heat or cooling or electric power does to these properties easily be ameliorated by whatever sucker buys them to own or flip.  Granite merchants need to eat, too.


My boiler quit working when it was abut 15-20 degrees outside. I called up American Homeshield, and it took them 3 days to find a company to come out. The guy they sent out didn't work on boilers, only modern furnaces, so it farked around with it for an hour and decided he couldn't do it, so they'd have to send someone else from his company out  the next day. That guy worked on it for two hours and then said he needed to order a part, collected the check and left. Day 4 I get a call from AHS saying *that* guy couldn't fix it and they were trying to find another company to come out. Apparently there was only the one company in a 50 mile radius that would still work with them. Day 6 they tell me they still can't find anyone and I could get my own company out there and get (hopefully. I'm still waiting) reembursed. Finally I get someone out, who gets it running in 30 minutes, but we discover that the water pipe to the glassed-in porch had busted a weld underneith.

Soon as AHS hears 'pipe busted' they're like "Yeah, we don't cover stuff that happens due to the weather". I tried to explain that the pipe only froze because of their failure to get someone out to my property to fix the issue for a week. (And that failure was due to everyone hating them due to their business practices). The guy told me "We are under no obligation to provide service in a timely manner" Then what the fark am I paying you for?

They also didn't want to pay for the inital service because 'frozen pipe'. I had to fight with the guy for half an hour trying to explain that turing the heat on in the house was a seperate issue from the porch. Guy says "The house is connected to that pipe, and if the pipe froze, we don't cover that" I told him that the heater guy isolated the porch from the rest of the house with the cut-off vavle. He says "We don't cover pipe isolation" "What? He just pulled a valve handle while he was diagnosing the boiler! There was no big process, just pulling the handle" "Sorry, we don't cover the valve isolation. We will only cover the diagnosis fee" "Um okay...sure." I made sure the guy didn't put "pulled valve handle' on the work sheet.

/end rant
 
2014-03-14 09:04:07 AM  

ZAZ: Nothing in the article says Wells Fargo was doing anything worse than throwing out deadbeats. It is consistent with the bank acting on primarily based on MERS records and checking paperwork only when paperwork is requested. The big banks can afford lawyers who know better than to create an actually incriminating document, as opposed to one that reporters can imagine is incriminating.

I have mentioned before some corporate antitrust training I had to go through. It taught us how to avoid creating evidence that would look bad in court. It had nothing to do with avoiding antitrust violations. Any anticompetitive policies were defined and implemented by top management, not ordinary cubicle occupants. I'm sure there is a similar division in Wells Fargo. You have the people who decide whether the company is evil, and you have other people who make sure all the paperwork describes a company that stays on the right side of the law.


That part I bolded is a HUGE part of the problem.  My understanding is MERS doesn't always meet the legal requirements...and certainly doesn't always meet them in every state, for every mortgage...which is why some banks (not necessarily all of them, all the time) have been making shiat up after the fact.

Yes, some bankers should be in jail.  If you or I did it, it would, rightly, be called fraud.
 
2014-03-14 09:09:07 AM  

Tommy Moo: The article's content doesn't even justify its own headline, let alone subby's. This is nothing more than Wells Fargo documenting a method of preventing delinquent homeowners from avoiding foreclosure via a legal loophole.


Manufacturing the necessary documents after the fact is, I suppose, a loophole...but it's not a LEGAL loophole.
 
2014-03-14 09:13:51 AM  

BMFPitt: BofA didn't need a manual, they just winged it.


BofA, for all their other sins, seems to have been mostly guilty of buying CountryWide...which was sinning plenty on its own, mind you.

Looks like BoA is setting up to pay a pretty big penalty to the government.

/just saying
 
2014-03-14 09:19:26 AM  

ChicagoKev: d23: Many, many, many people were thrown out of their homes in an illegal way and, if they were lucky, were only paid back a few pennies on the dollar.

I call BS on this claim.

As Loren points out, there are just two cases in this thread where a bank foreclosed when the homeowner was not delinquent.   Two cases out of how many foreclosures?

Yes, you can claim that mortgages were sold and resold and securitized into tranches until the paper trail was murky and it was difficult to demonstrate that the particular bank doing the foreclosure was the "true owner" of the debt.    But was there a debt, and out of the "many many people" who were thrown out, all but two of them missed multiple mortgage payments.

If you  borrow money with a house as collateral then fail to make payments, why act shocked when you are evicted?   You can try to make this about bad paperwork, but in the end, with two exceptions, everybody in foreclosure admittedly borrowed a huge sum of money and stopped making payments.


Turn that around.

If you're a bank, and loan money with full knowledge of how to keep a proper paper trail (with requirements that literally haven't changed in over a century, in some states), and fail to follow those legal requirements...why should you benefit from the court system?
 
2014-03-14 09:22:47 AM  

ChicagoKev: d23: Many, many, many people were thrown out of their homes in an illegal way and, if they were lucky, were only paid back a few pennies on the dollar.

I call BS on this claim.

As Loren points out, there are just two cases in this thread where a bank foreclosed when the homeowner was not delinquent.   Two cases out of how many foreclosures?

Yes, you can claim that mortgages were sold and resold and securitized into tranches until the paper trail was murky and it was difficult to demonstrate that the particular bank doing the foreclosure was the "true owner" of the debt.    But was there a debt, and out of the "many many people" who were thrown out, all but two of them missed multiple mortgage payments.

If you  borrow money with a house as collateral then fail to make payments, why act shocked when you are evicted?   You can try to make this about bad paperwork, but in the end, with two exceptions, everybody in foreclosure admittedly borrowed a huge sum of money and stopped making payments.


Also, friends of mine (not clients), WERE making their payments.  Their mortgage company just screwed up recording them.  And, bonus, also forgot to pay their property taxes, which they'd been collecting, and were supposed to pay (common in mortgages).

Their attorney was able to save their house, and their town was very forgiving about the taxes (because, get this...it wasn't an uncommon problem) but still...they'd done NOTHING wrong.

And their bank wasn't even deliberately evil...just screwed up.
 
2014-03-14 09:31:44 AM  

pla: Look, Wells Fargo et al have attained a level of evil that threatens to depose the very Devil himself.  But TFA ain't the reason.  TFA basically describes them violating a technicality, and not (as TFS makes it sound) Wells Fargo going around evicting random people with no connection to them (spare me the random links to cleanout contractors screwing up - Yes, mistakes happen, get over it).

 These evictions remove people deep under water from overpriced houses with a mortgage they never should have gotten.  If you don't pay Rent-A-Center for your couch, they take it away.  If you don't pay Chrysler your monthly car payment, they take it away.  And if you don't pay your mortgage... Can anyone spot the pattern here?  Right: They take it away.

 The sheer scale of this problem makes it a borderline atrocity, but lets spare all the feelgood BS...The very Boobies in this thread already nailed it: Banks evict deadbeats.  Simple as that.  The entire situation has no moral high-ground.  Bank sucks, mortgage brokers suck, deadbeat "owners" suck, and bailing the banks out instead of lining their CEOs up against a wall sucks.  But no one deserves the least bit of sympathy (much less righteous indignation) in all that.


And innocent homeowners, and people who've never had a mortgage with them, and people who've never missed a payment, and people who the bank can't actually find the paperwork on so they make it up after the fact, and...

Sure, there's a lot of irresponsible deadbeats out there.

Some of them are multi-billion dollar banks.
 
2014-03-14 10:02:43 AM  

PunGent: BMFPitt: BofA didn't need a manual, they just winged it.

BofA, for all their other sins, seems to have been mostly guilty of buying CountryWide...which was sinning plenty on its own, mind you.

Looks like BoA is setting up to pay a pretty big penalty to the government.

/just saying


You know what a fine is called when it's a small percentage of what you're getting fined for illegally obtaining?  A business expense.
 
2014-03-14 11:54:22 AM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: Yeah, it's no big.

http://www.laweekly.com/2013-03-07/news/wells-fargo-typo-victim-dead -l arry-delassus/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290983/Larry-Delassus-death -E lderly-man-lost-house-Wells-Fargo-TYPO-collapses-dies-court-fighting-b ank-years-on.html


That one is ugly but it's still not a wrongful foreclosure.

suburbanguy: What's your point? Foreclosure is basically using the other party for not fulfilling contract terms. There are specific laws and procedures for foreclosing on someone. You have to have all your t's crossed and your ducks in a row. We're the foreclosed owners wrong for not paying. Absolutely. But the bank has to go through the proper channels to foreclose. Should they be able to go to the judge without proper paperwork? "Just trust us. We don't have the proper paperwork, but we can legally take the property." Just because the debtors are deadbeats, doesn't mean you don't have to show proper cause for foreclosure. The ends don't justify the means.


The point is that they aren't trying to take property that they shouldn't be.

So far every example of an actual problem involves a failure to stop legitimate proceedings when the situation changes, not going after the wrong house in the first place.  Thus rules designed to keep them from going after the wrong property aren't going to do anything.
 
2014-03-14 12:23:27 PM  

Loren: Smelly Pirate Hooker: Yeah, it's no big.

http://www.laweekly.com/2013-03-07/news/wells-fargo-typo-victim-dead -l arry-delassus/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290983/Larry-Delassus-death -E lderly-man-lost-house-Wells-Fargo-TYPO-collapses-dies-court-fighting-b ank-years-on.html

That one is ugly but it's still not a wrongful foreclosure.

suburbanguy: What's your point? Foreclosure is basically using the other party for not fulfilling contract terms. There are specific laws and procedures for foreclosing on someone. You have to have all your t's crossed and your ducks in a row. We're the foreclosed owners wrong for not paying. Absolutely. But the bank has to go through the proper channels to foreclose. Should they be able to go to the judge without proper paperwork? "Just trust us. We don't have the proper paperwork, but we can legally take the property." Just because the debtors are deadbeats, doesn't mean you don't have to show proper cause for foreclosure. The ends don't justify the means.

The point is that they aren't trying to take property that they shouldn't be.

So far every example of an actual problem involves a failure to stop legitimate proceedings when the situation changes, not going after the wrong house in the first place.  Thus rules designed to keep them from going after the wrong property aren't going to do anything.


That's exactly why you're a farker, not a lawyer. Foreclosure procedures are in place to make sure they aren't foreclosing on the wrong person, or improperly on the right one. There are specific steps to take; you can't skip the proper steps of make up your own rules. If you own a repo company, you can't tow somebody's car without the proper authorization. You can't forge authorization or tow without it. Once we skip that step, what's to keep repo men from towing cars they aren't entitled to?

TLDR: This isn't 'Nam; there are rules.
 
2014-03-14 02:09:43 PM  

bunner: PunGent: BMFPitt: BofA didn't need a manual, they just winged it.

BofA, for all their other sins, seems to have been mostly guilty of buying CountryWide...which was sinning plenty on its own, mind you.

Looks like BoA is setting up to pay a pretty big penalty to the government.

/just saying

You know what a fine is called when it's a small percentage of what you're getting fined for illegally obtaining?  A business expense.


Yep...that's a whole 'nother issue.  Which bank was it that admitted to money laundering for cartels and terrorists...and got off with a month's profits in fines?

And people STILL white-knighted them.
 
2014-03-14 03:44:40 PM  

ZAZ: Nothing in the article says Wells Fargo was doing anything worse than throwing out deadbeats. It is consistent with the bank acting on primarily based on MERS records and checking paperwork only when paperwork is requested. The big banks can afford lawyers who know better than to create an actually incriminating document, as opposed to one that reporters can imagine is incriminating.

I have mentioned before some corporate antitrust training I had to go through. It taught us how to avoid creating evidence that would look bad in court. It had nothing to do with avoiding antitrust violations. Any anticompetitive policies were defined and implemented by top management, not ordinary cubicle occupants. I'm sure there is a similar division in Wells Fargo. You have the people who decide whether the company is evil, and you have other people who make sure all the paperwork describes a company that stays on the right side of the law.


This is what happens when lawyers get involved.  Hope your home is "accidentally" foreclosed and I just can't wait for your reasonable response when it happens.
 
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