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(Christian Post)   Science show "Cosmos" under fire for being unfair to Catholicism. Giordano Bruno, Galileo, Copernicus, and hundreds of other scientists unavailable for comment   (christianpost.com) divider line 165
    More: Obvious, Giordano Bruno, Copernicus, Catholicism, Catholic Church, Catholic League, universe, Culture and Media Institute, intellectual history  
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3574 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Mar 2014 at 1:06 PM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-13 01:06:46 PM  
If you don't want people to report that the Catholic church ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science, maybe the Catholic church shouldn't have ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science.
 
2014-03-13 01:11:17 PM  

scottydoesntknow: If you don't want people to report that the Catholic church ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science, maybe the Catholic church shouldn't have ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science.


qft
 
2014-03-13 01:11:20 PM  
Will, I DNRTFA, but will say the new Cosmos is a good one.


/Big Sagan fan
//became a physicist because of Cosmos
 
2014-03-13 01:13:29 PM  
This is going to confuse the Baptists. Attacking religion: bad! Attacking papists: good!
 
2014-03-13 01:15:02 PM  
Awww, the Catholics feel they're being persecuted?  See if you can spot how many farks I give.
 
2014-03-13 01:15:23 PM  
Yeah. We treated Galileo much better. Why didn't you show that?
 
2014-03-13 01:16:21 PM  

stuhayes2010: Will, I DNRTFA, but will say the new Cosmos is a good one.


/Big Sagan fan
//became a physicist because of Cosmos


Colbert's interview with Neil Tyson was awesome. My only disappointment with it was Colbert didn't call Neil out on not attending Cornell even after meeting Sagan and being invited to stay at his house.
 
2014-03-13 01:16:24 PM  
The show specifically mentioned he was similarly banished from Protestant kingdoms as well.
 
2014-03-13 01:16:29 PM  
Hold on, a group headed by mostly Evangelical Protestants is upset with a TV program taking jabs at the Catholic Church of the 16th Century?

Something seems...off... can't quite put my finger on it...
 
2014-03-13 01:18:04 PM  
Lately, I've seen a lot of apologists for the Church's treatment of Galileo that basically boil down to "Galileo was being mean to the Pope by implying that he was an idiot and that's why he got into trouble."

Every single on of these apologetic attempts elides that this

1) Indicates that the Church was willing to deprive him of his freedom and threaten his life over a political matter
2) Indicates that as a  pretext for doing so, the Church was willing to assume authority in dictating the truth of scientific matters

Either way, the Church still ends up looking and, indeed, being tyrannical and hostile to both human rights and science.

Now, it's been over four centuries and the Church isn't  quite as hostile to science, these days (although they still seem to think that they should have a seat at the table when it comes to discussing scientific ethics), but they really have to own the fact that they have a bad history. Trying to obscure that history doesn't do anything but lend to the suspicion that the Church never really did learn its lesson on that matter.
 
2014-03-13 01:18:55 PM  

scottydoesntknow: If you don't want people to report that the Catholic church ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science, maybe the Catholic church shouldn't have ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science.


Pretty much expresses my thoughts on the whole thing.

/new Cosmos is pretty good
 
2014-03-13 01:18:59 PM  

lordargent: scottydoesntknow: If you don't want people to report that the Catholic church ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science, maybe the Catholic church shouldn't have ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science.

qft


To be completely fair, though, the Catholic Church of today is not like the Catholic Church of the 16th Century.  They've made their peace with science, for the most part, especially with astronomy, paleontology, etc.  Ironically, it's some of the new upstart evangelical protestant denominations that have a problem with science, not the hidebound Catholic church (which, btw, has a decent astronomical observatory, run by a Jesuit priest).
 
2014-03-13 01:19:17 PM  
"It is not heresy. And I will not recant"

/obscure?
 
2014-03-13 01:19:51 PM  

dittybopper: lordargent: scottydoesntknow: If you don't want people to report that the Catholic church ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science, maybe the Catholic church shouldn't have ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science.

qft

To be completely fair, though, the Catholic Church of today is not like the Catholic Church of the 16th Century.  They've made their peace with science, for the most part, especially with astronomy, paleontology, etc.  Ironically, it's some of the new upstart evangelical protestant denominations that have a problem with science, not the hidebound Catholic church (which, btw, has a decent astronomical observatory, run by a Jesuit priest).


Which, while true, doesn't really matter when they're whining as they are.
 
2014-03-13 01:20:13 PM  

USCLaw2010: The show specifically mentioned he was similarly banished from Protestant kingdoms as well.


Yeah, it was most explicit that he wasn't welcomed in any theological circles.

Learned Hand Job: Hold on, a group headed by mostly Evangelical Protestants is upset with a TV program taking jabs at the Catholic Church of the 16th Century?

Something seems...off... can't quite put my finger on it...


It is pretty telling that TFA had nothing from actual Catholics.  The Church has acknowledged its folly in the suppression of scientific thought, but other Christians don't like seeing that whole "God and science can coexist" angle that comes out of Rome nowadays.
 
2014-03-13 01:20:48 PM  
Some things never change...
 
2014-03-13 01:20:50 PM  
"How dare you show the facts!"
 
2014-03-13 01:21:09 PM  
It's the history that Catholics have to own up to.  We still talk about slavery and the holocaust, but don't directly blame the South and Germany of today for those atrocities.  It was in the past, the organizations learned from the experience (well maybe not the South so much...) and become better for it.

Catholics have become very science friendly since then.

/recovering Catholic
//the anti-gay and anti-women stances were something I didn't want to wait for
///the priest abuse stuff too
 
2014-03-13 01:22:08 PM  

Learned Hand Job: Hold on, a group headed by mostly Evangelical Protestants is upset with a TV program taking jabs at the Catholic Church of the 16th Century?

Something seems...off... can't quite put my finger on it...


The enemy of my enemy is also my enemy because I'm a stupid windbag that has no friends.
 
2014-03-13 01:25:25 PM  
If you don't want people to report that the Catholic church ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science, maybe the Catholic church shouldn't have ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science.

Jeez, WILL YOU GET OVER IT ALREADY?

Happened long time ago, not happening today. And yeah, Cosmos DID get a little heavy handed with the cartoon characters looking like baddies from a Star Wars Clone wars episode...

I notice that the Commies managed to kill 100 MILLION people recently, in the 20th Century, yet nobody seems to get bent out of shape over people sporting Che Gueverra or Mao Tshirts....
 
2014-03-13 01:27:10 PM  

mark12A: Jeez, WILL YOU GET OVER IT ALREADY?


Admit that you mean "pretend it never happened because it makes us look bad," or shut up.

People did bad things in the past, we're smart not to forget it. Nobody thinks it reflects on the modern versions of the group - they have their own problems. Sack up and stop whining.
 
2014-03-13 01:28:06 PM  

LasersHurt: Which, while true, doesn't really matter when they're whining as they are.


The "whiners" in this case appear not to be Catholics at all.
 
2014-03-13 01:28:41 PM  
Two similar, but more thorough and better explained, takes on this:

Bruno wasn't really much of a scientist, and was kind of a jerk

Bruno was executed not for heliocentrism, but for heresy

Don't take this as an argument that burning people at the stake is a good response to heresy, but if the presentation given in Cosmos is as blatantly wrong as it seems to be, let's call a spade a spade.
 
2014-03-13 01:30:56 PM  

mark12A: I notice that the Commies managed to kill 100 MILLION people recently, in the 20th Century, yet nobody seems to get bent out of shape over people sporting Che Gueverra or Mao Tshirts....


#1.  The bolded part is complete bullshiat.  The only reason anyone even wears those shirts is to troll those literally millions of "nobodies"
#2.  The point of the show was that science operates on an always expanding basis, and that letting the fact that you "know" someone is wrong stop you from examining their ideas is stupid.   It was an important distinction from the "before science" attitude and the "after science" one.  They chose someone oppressed and rejected by multiple religions, precisely to avoid appearing as "we hate Catholics"
 
2014-03-13 01:31:19 PM  
"An honest telling of either story would open the door to a discussion of what else the Church had done over the years to preserve and foster scientific inquiry..."

Let me stop you right there.
 
2014-03-13 01:34:03 PM  

Rug Doctor: "An honest telling of either story would open the door to a discussion of what else the Church had done over the years to preserve and foster scientific inquiry..."

Let me stop you right there.


Yeah, "science" wasn't invented yet.  They couldn't foster what didn't exist.
 
2014-03-13 01:34:07 PM  

mark12A: If you don't want people to report that the Catholic church ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science, maybe the Catholic church shouldn't have ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science.

Jeez, WILL YOU GET OVER IT ALREADY?

Happened long time ago, not happening today. And yeah, Cosmos DID get a little heavy handed with the cartoon characters looking like baddies from a Star Wars Clone wars episode...

I notice that the Commies managed to kill 100 MILLION people recently, in the 20th Century, yet nobody seems to get bent out of shape over people sporting Che Gueverra or Mao Tshirts....


It's called history. Ya know, that stuff that happened in the past.
 
2014-03-13 01:34:11 PM  
I'm impressed with the number of people hell bent on providing alternate justifications for burning someone at the stake.
 
2014-03-13 01:35:06 PM  

mark12A: I notice that the Commies managed to kill 100 MILLION people recently, in the 20th Century, yet nobody seems to get bent out of shape over people sporting Che Gueverra or Mao Tshirts....


I betcha they're still under your bed.
 
2014-03-13 01:36:17 PM  

enry: Catholics have become very science friendly since then.


Kkkkkinda.

Not really.  Still only kind of backed off on things they've tried politically and had explode in their face (natural selection etc) PR-wise.

They did manage to at least get someone educated enough to be backwards regarding science in a semi-organized manner as pope, I guess, so that's nice.  Steps forward and all that.
 
2014-03-13 01:37:40 PM  

hstein3: Bruno was executed not for heliocentrism, but for heresy

Don't take this as an argument that burning people at the stake is a good response to heresy, but if the presentation given in Cosmos is as blatantly wrong as it seems to be, let's call a spade a spade.


Cosmos specifically included a line in his "charges" concerning his denial of the Trinity, which is the Arianism for which he was expelled from the Church.
 
2014-03-13 01:39:03 PM  
www.ketv.com

images.nationalgeographic.com



turoboz.ru



ppcdn.500px.org


 ** clutches  pearls rosary beads **

Oh, those poor poor oppressed Catholics, having Tyson say all those mean (but true) things about their history.


==================================================

OTOH, I'm very happy and excited that the reboot of a TV show expounding the virtue of rigorous science has sparked so much national discussion-- Hell, It's even reaching Here Comes Honey Boo Boo levels!

There may be just the tiniest sliver of hope for humankind yet.
 
2014-03-13 01:40:02 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Lately, I've seen a lot of apologists for the Church's treatment of Galileo that basically boil down to "Galileo was being mean to the Pope by implying that he was an idiot and that's why he got into trouble."

Every single on of these apologetic attempts elides that this

1) Indicates that the Church was willing to deprive him of his freedom and threaten his life over a political matter
2) Indicates that as a  pretext for doing so, the Church was willing to assume authority in dictating the truth of scientific matters

Either way, the Church still ends up looking and, indeed, being tyrannical and hostile to both human rights and science.

Now, it's been over four centuries and the Church isn't  quite as hostile to science, these days (although they still seem to think that they should have a seat at the table when it comes to discussing scientific ethics), but they really have to own the fact that they have a bad history. Trying to obscure that history doesn't do anything but lend to the suspicion that the Church never really did learn its lesson on that matter.


You miss that Galileo was a plagiarist, bad scientist, and all around asshole. The Galileo affair was not so simple as Church fear science, Church lock up scientist, Church bad that it gets bandied about. Hell some people think that the church killed Galileo, and didn't just put him under house arrest.
 
2014-03-13 01:41:47 PM  
From our perspective it seems absurd, but-as Tyson correctly notes later in his narration-separation of Church and state didn't really exist.

When words follow "but," aren't they supposed to rebut or at least diminish the words that precede them?
 
2014-03-13 01:42:22 PM  

Riche: [www.ketv.com image 640x360]

[images.nationalgeographic.com image 850x637]

[turoboz.ru image 660x440]

[ppcdn.500px.org image 850x565]
 ** clutches  pearls rosary beads **

Oh, those poor poor oppressed Catholics, having Tyson say all those mean (but true) things about their history.


==================================================

OTOH, I'm very happy and excited that the reboot of a TV show expounding the virtue of rigorous science has sparked so much national discussion-- Hell, It's even reaching Here Comes Honey Boo Boo levels!

There may be just the tiniest sliver of hope for humankind yet.


You know, I bet wiring the Vatican for electric lighting was horrifying.
 
2014-03-13 01:43:42 PM  

palelizard: You know, I bet wiring the Vatican for electric lighting was horrifying.


Yes, I feel awful for all those electrons.
 
2014-03-13 01:43:57 PM  

scottydoesntknow: If you don't want people to report that the Catholic church ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science, maybe the Catholic church shouldn't have ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science.

media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com

 
2014-03-13 01:45:04 PM  

mark12A: If you don't want people to report that the Catholic church ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science, maybe the Catholic church shouldn't have ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science.

Jeez, WILL YOU GET OVER IT ALREADY?

Happened long time ago, not happening today. And yeah, Cosmos DID get a little heavy handed with the cartoon characters looking like baddies from a Star Wars Clone wars episode...

I notice that the Commies managed to kill 100 MILLION people recently, in the 20th Century, yet nobody seems to get bent out of shape over people sporting Che Gueverra or Mao Tshirts....


With help from Jews and Christians.  Read less Bible, and more history.  Try it...you'll look less ignorant.
 
2014-03-13 01:45:11 PM  
I thought the biggest mistake made by Cosmos is that they didn't even mention Pele.
 
2014-03-13 01:46:25 PM  

dittybopper: To be completely fair, though, the Catholic Church of today is not like the Catholic Church of the 16th Century. They've made their peace with science, for the most part, especially with astronomy, paleontology, etc. Ironically, it's some of the new upstart evangelical protestant denominations that have a problem with science, not the hidebound Catholic church (which, btw, has a decent astronomical observatory, run by a Jesuit priest).


And CDA30360 Georges Lemaitre was the catholic priest who came up with the "Big Bang Theory".
 
2014-03-13 01:46:33 PM  
There was a lot of misrepresentation going on. The heresy was represented by the show as more of a side-note, where it was more of the main cause. However, that article was not a reaction from the Catholic Church, so in all it's more of a discussion over nothing.
 
2014-03-13 01:46:48 PM  

Jim_Callahan: enry: Catholics have become very science friendly since then.

Kkkkkinda.

Not really.  Still only kind of backed off on things they've tried politically and had explode in their face (natural selection etc) PR-wise.

They did manage to at least get someone educated enough to be backwards regarding science in a semi-organized manner as pope, I guess, so that's nice.  Steps forward and all that.


They're more science friendly than most of the Protestants.

/only cos Anglicans don't have an official observatory
//or do they?
 
2014-03-13 01:48:06 PM  

Angela Lansbury's Merkin: dittybopper: To be completely fair, though, the Catholic Church of today is not like the Catholic Church of the 16th Century. They've made their peace with science, for the most part, especially with astronomy, paleontology, etc. Ironically, it's some of the new upstart evangelical protestant denominations that have a problem with science, not the hidebound Catholic church (which, btw, has a decent astronomical observatory, run by a Jesuit priest).

And CDA30360 Georges Lemaitre was the catholic priest who came up with the "Big Bang Theory".


I'm pretty sure it was created by Chuck Lorre, actually.

/i keed, i keed
 
2014-03-13 01:48:44 PM  
Oh, good, the religious revisionists are angry again that their history is being related factually.

We could discuss Copernicus, but it wasn't the point of the story. Nor was Galileo. Bruno was not, in fact, a scientist and he didn't really contribute anything of any great value directly to our scientific understanding of the universe. Actual scientific work at the time was not the point of the story.

Copernicus established the initial foundation, but he (rightly, as evidenced by Bruno's own fate) feared the church would retaliate so he did not press the issue very hard when his work was largely ignored by church leaders. Galileo is the one who ultimately put the matter to rest by providing indisputable visual proof of the theory, but it wasn't his idea.

The key linking the two, the man who linked Copernicus's vision to Galileo's work was Giordano Bruno.

The point in accurately portraying the vicious, cruel and unjust nature of the church at that time was not to portray the vicious, cruel and unjust nature of the church at that time. Those are just the facts that fill in the real story: that Giordano Bruno, a regular man with nothing more than a stern desire to know reality even if it would literally kill him, was able to incite a revolution in thought that has taken us 14.5 billion years into the past and revealed that the place we live is so much more than imagination could possibly dream up on its own.

Your religion's past is permanently a part of history. Get over it. Every time the facts are mentioned because of their relation to the time period being discussed is not an attempt to hurt your feelings.
 
2014-03-13 01:49:04 PM  

Learned Hand Job: Hold on, a group headed by mostly Evangelical Protestants is upset with a TV program taking jabs at the Catholic Church of the 16th Century?

Something seems...off... can't quite put my finger on it...


But enough about the clitoris
 
2014-03-13 01:51:25 PM  
Sucks to be you.
 
2014-03-13 01:52:26 PM  

dittybopper: To be completely fair, though, the Catholic Church of today is not like the Catholic Church of the 16th Century.  They've made their peace with science, for the most part, especially with astronomy, paleontology, etc


which is why the catholics i've talked to have no problem with this and admit the error of their church during the inquisition.
 
2014-03-13 01:52:58 PM  
I was a little put off that the first episode of Cosmos spent so much time on the subject, but I guess it was a bit of a necessary introduction to point out that, hey, we humans really haven't been at this for very long.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the series.
 
2014-03-13 01:54:38 PM  

scottydoesntknow: If you don't want people to report that the Catholic church ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science, maybe the Catholic church shouldn't have ordered the execution of hundreds (if not thousands) of people because they were scared of science.


Umm... The Catholic church didn't kill people because they were scared of science. They killed people to acquire power, property, and wealth, which is the reason for 99.9% of all organized mass murders. Religion/heresy was just the excuse they used to get away with it.
 
2014-03-13 01:54:59 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: Learned Hand Job: Hold on, a group headed by mostly Evangelical Protestants is upset with a TV program taking jabs at the Catholic Church of the 16th Century?

Something seems...off... can't quite put my finger on it...

But enough about the clitoris


But can you get Wendy Testaburger to like you?
 
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