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(Seattle Times)   Study of minimum wage increases shows practically no job losses but dining out get slightly more expensive, so forget about it   (seattletimes.com) divider line 108
    More: Interesting, minimum wages, minimum wage increases, unemployment, types of business, living wages  
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775 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 Mar 2014 at 2:23 PM (27 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-13 01:17:54 PM
This is all about Moochelle's agenda to get people to eat healthier.
 
2014-03-13 01:26:42 PM
A study by the Congressional Budget Office last month found that raising the federal minimum to $10.10 would boost the earnings of 16.5million workers, but an estimated half million would lose their jobs.

tomalexander.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-03-13 01:31:28 PM
The most hypocritical thing in the world is pretending Republicans give a flying fark about people who could potentially lose their job.

Republicans care about corporate profits which is fine and they should stick to that.
 
2014-03-13 01:45:15 PM
"But, but, my feelings! My friend-of-a-friend Job Creator Small Businesshero anecdotes!"
 
2014-03-13 01:49:59 PM
Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless
 
2014-03-13 02:27:24 PM
But I was told in other threads that businesses would just replace their staff with robots if the minimum wage was raised.
 
Ask
2014-03-13 02:28:01 PM
On the other hand they can actually afford to dine out so a larger customer base might mean higher overall profits at the same prices.
 
2014-03-13 02:28:29 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless


How much profit is in a papa Johns Pizza? 14 cents is kinda a big deal if the profit was small to begin with.
 
2014-03-13 02:30:19 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless


I like to refer to the poor as "those people". What happens if they raise the minimum wage? Then I'll have to pay 30 cents more for a pizza? Where does it end!?!11?
 
2014-03-13 02:30:41 PM
Let's suppose the CBO is right. 500,000 fewer people will have jobs in five years if we raise the minimum wage to $10.10. 16.5 million people will have higher wages as a result of this increase. Is it better to keep 16 million people mired near poverty or to plunge 500,000 from poverty into complete destitution?
 
2014-03-13 02:31:32 PM

Fart_Machine: But I was told in other threads that businesses would just replace their staff with robots if the minimum wage was raised.


*robot voice* Hel-o *different robot voice* Fart Machine *robot voice* would you like your *different robot voice* usual *robot voice* today?
 
2014-03-13 02:31:59 PM
When I take my lady out to the Steak Hut buffet I expect that it will cost $9.99 and not a penny more.  If you libs make them take away the all-you-can-eat shrimp cocktail, I'm gonna be soooo pissed.
 
2014-03-13 02:32:00 PM

Serious Black: Let's suppose the CBO is right. 500,000 fewer people will have jobs in five years if we raise the minimum wage to $10.10. 16.5 million people will have higher wages as a result of this increase. Is it better to keep 16 million people mired near poverty or to plunge 500,000 from poverty into complete destitution?


And a portion of hose 500,000 people could be trained to do different jobs.
 
2014-03-13 02:32:53 PM
So where are those guys claiming that we'll all be served food by robots now?
 
2014-03-13 02:33:05 PM
C'mon, Murray.  They're going to force it onto the ballot if you don't raise it.
 
2014-03-13 02:33:36 PM
an estimated half million would lose their jobs.

still lying about this, amazing
 
2014-03-13 02:33:59 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless


It is this over-arching conservative concept that some must suffer in order that society as a whole thrives.  Very outdated.  When they start seeing ignorance and poverty as a cancer as opposed to a necessary evil, you might be able to fix some stuff.
 
2014-03-13 02:34:22 PM

Brostorm: Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless

How much profit is in a papa Johns Pizza? 14 cents is kinda a big deal if the profit was small to begin with.


That 14 cents would be what the customer pays.

/American businesses have ridiculous profit margins.
 
2014-03-13 02:35:34 PM

Jackson Herring: an estimated half million would lose their jobs.

still lying about this, amazing


yeah I thought this was already debunked last week or whatever...
 
2014-03-13 02:36:23 PM
Just raise it already.

It's time.

Raise it and also start rebuilding our middle class.
 
2014-03-13 02:36:27 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless


That was one of the best veiled threats in recent memory.  "If you pass Obamacare, I'll raise the price of my pizzas by upwards of 50 cents to a dollar each!  You'll rue the day!"
 
2014-03-13 02:40:52 PM
It says a lot about our society when a large segment of our population opposes any law requiring the people serving them to be paid a living wage, on the basis that it might cause the restaurant to slightly increase its prices.

I guess that does, however, fit right in with the Ayn Rand "it's ok to be a douchebag" philosophy that many people in this country subscribe to.
 
2014-03-13 02:41:51 PM
Businesses absorbed the costs through lower turnover, small price increases at restaurants, which have a high concentration of low-wage workers, and higher worker productivity, the researchers found.

They can biatch all they want but training new employees is expensive, even when it's something like a desk job that's fairly cut and dried, there is still an adjustment period, you still have to bring the new guy up to speed on the processes that are different from any previous job, you have someone helping them out and lowering their own productivity, and the new worker has lower productivity. No matter the job, lower turnover pays quite a bit for itself.

Hell, when I waited tables, a trainee would follow for at least 3 shifts to learn the menu and the POS system. As a result, the new person would make regular wages(Rather than the $2.13/hr at the time), and I would make $5-$6/hr(Instead of the $2.13/hr as well), so that would be 3 or 4 shifts where they were basically paying 4x what they would, and not having that person on the floor making sales, either. Training people gets expensive.
 
2014-03-13 02:45:20 PM

Brostorm: Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless

How much profit is in a papa Johns Pizza? 14 cents is kinda a big deal if the profit was small to begin with.


Yeah a blow like that could really hurt a small mom & pop operation like Papa John's.

Are you listening to yourself?
 
2014-03-13 02:45:46 PM

LoneWolf343: Brostorm: Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless

How much profit is in a papa Johns Pizza? 14 cents is kinda a big deal if the profit was small to begin with.

That 14 cents would be what the customer pays.

/American businesses have ridiculous profit margins.


Not restaurants... A good/average price markup was about 3x cost. And that was to make any kind of profit. I believe liquor was 23% and food was about 26% when I was waiting tables and talking to the managers at one restaurant, and the owner and also the business manger at another. For every liquor dollar sold, for example, 26% of it was cost, and the rest went to overhead and profit. Sounds like a lot, but it's just average, and that doesn't put the restaurant owner in a Porsche or anything. Costco's markup is only 14%, and that's considered very low, it's the amount of volume as well as the memberships that make them profitable.
 
2014-03-13 02:46:10 PM

Solid State Vittles: Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless

That was one of the best veiled threats in recent memory.  "If you pass Obamacare, I'll raise the price of my pizzas by upwards of 50 cents to a dollar each!  You'll rue the day!"


I remember when that story came out and some of my friends who didn't like Obamacare kept bringing it up....

My response was always to ask "So, would I just tip the driver...C-could I stop by a franchise, drop a tenner and pay for 70-pizzas worth of health insurance? I'd be down.
 
2014-03-13 02:48:34 PM

Xetal: Serious Black: Let's suppose the CBO is right. 500,000 fewer people will have jobs in five years if we raise the minimum wage to $10.10. 16.5 million people will have higher wages as a result of this increase. Is it better to keep 16 million people mired near poverty or to plunge 500,000 from poverty into complete destitution?

And a portion of hose 500,000 people could be trained to do different jobs.


Oh yeah, it's not like those 500,000 people will just collectively decide to sit on their asses. People like to work. They'll try to find jobs. Absent a continuing trend of huge long-term unemployment, they will find jobs.
 
2014-03-13 02:49:34 PM

Mikey1969: Businesses absorbed the costs through lower turnover, small price increases at restaurants, which have a high concentration of low-wage workers, and higher worker productivity, the researchers found.

They can biatch all they want but training new employees is expensive, even when it's something like a desk job that's fairly cut and dried, there is still an adjustment period, you still have to bring the new guy up to speed on the processes that are different from any previous job, you have someone helping them out and lowering their own productivity, and the new worker has lower productivity. No matter the job, lower turnover pays quite a bit for itself.

Hell, when I waited tables, a trainee would follow for at least 3 shifts to learn the menu and the POS system. As a result, the new person would make regular wages(Rather than the $2.13/hr at the time), and I would make $5-$6/hr(Instead of the $2.13/hr as well), so that would be 3 or 4 shifts where they were basically paying 4x what they would, and not having that person on the floor making sales, either. Training people gets expensive.


I work in a hospital.  The cost to orient a new R.N. is somewhere between $22,000 and $64,000.  Having 1 less nurse turnover per month can save the hospital half a million (or more) a year.  Costs are similar to orient a new imaging tech or other similar job.

Convincing people to stay for longer than 1 or 2 years saves a lot of money.


Source:
http://www.nursingworld.org/MainMenuCategories/ANAMarketplace/ANAPer io dicals/OJIN/TableofContents/Volume122007/No3Sept07/NurseRetention.aspx
 
2014-03-13 02:49:52 PM

meat0918: Just raise it already.

It's time.

Raise it and also start rebuilding our middle class.


When the minimum wage thing comes up in Canada, you have a day or two of debate and then it is just done.  As long as a raise in line with inflation, why would it even be something worth debating.
 
2014-03-13 02:52:06 PM
 Enjoy your $7 Quarter Pounder. And forget about the Dollar Menu. It's $2 now. You can get all those two dollar bills out of your dresser drawer that Taco Bell would not accept and start using them.
 
2014-03-13 02:52:08 PM

Serious Black: Let's suppose the CBO is right. 500,000 fewer people will have jobs in five years if we raise the minimum wage to $10.10. 16.5 million people will have higher wages as a result of this increase. Is it better to keep 16 million people mired near poverty or to plunge 500,000 from poverty into complete destitution?


I don't know if it's even as clear-cut as that. You might remember from their report on the impact of the ACA, that they estimated that there would be a loss of 2.5 million "full-time equivalent" jobs; this could mean that 2.5 million full-time workers are staying out of the workforce, or that 5 million 20 hr / week workers are quitting, or that 5 million full-time workers are choosing to work 20 hours a week instead (or of course some combination of those). They should be using the same metric here; instead of 500,000 people losing their jobs it might be 500,000 people who are getting their hours cut back.  Minimum wage hourly work is often treated as expendable by employers, so it's very possible that you won't actually have 500,000 people losing their jobs, per se.
 
2014-03-13 02:54:16 PM

Brostorm: Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless

How much profit is in a papa Johns Pizza? 14 cents is kinda a big deal if the profit was small to begin with.


Pass it on.  No one will stop buying his pizza if it's 14 cents more,  I'd be MORE likely to buy his crappy pizza if he openly supported health care for his employees and just said "this will cost YOU 14 more cents"

So would most non-assholes.  Only a petty teabagger would switch to some other shiatty pizza in protest.
 
2014-03-13 02:57:20 PM

Arkanaut: Serious Black: Let's suppose the CBO is right. 500,000 fewer people will have jobs in five years if we raise the minimum wage to $10.10. 16.5 million people will have higher wages as a result of this increase. Is it better to keep 16 million people mired near poverty or to plunge 500,000 from poverty into complete destitution?

I don't know if it's even as clear-cut as that. You might remember from their report on the impact of the ACA, that they estimated that there would be a loss of 2.5 million "full-time equivalent" jobs; this could mean that 2.5 million full-time workers are staying out of the workforce, or that 5 million 20 hr / week workers are quitting, or that 5 million full-time workers are choosing to work 20 hours a week instead (or of course some combination of those). They should be using the same metric here; instead of 500,000 people losing their jobs it might be 500,000 people who are getting their hours cut back.  Minimum wage hourly work is often treated as expendable by employers, so it's very possible that you won't actually have 500,000 people losing their jobs, per se.


The CBO report (warning: PDF) specifically said that this did not deal with FTE jobs. See page 11 of the report/page 15 of the document.
 
2014-03-13 03:03:19 PM

Mikey1969: LoneWolf343: Brostorm: Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?

Some people just want to punish the poor, even when helping is practically painless

How much profit is in a papa Johns Pizza? 14 cents is kinda a big deal if the profit was small to begin with.

That 14 cents would be what the customer pays.

/American businesses have ridiculous profit margins.

Not restaurants... A good/average price markup was about 3x cost. And that was to make any kind of profit. I believe liquor was 23% and food was about 26% when I was waiting tables and talking to the managers at one restaurant, and the owner and also the business manger at another. For every liquor dollar sold, for example, 26% of it was cost, and the rest went to overhead and profit. Sounds like a lot, but it's just average, and that doesn't put the restaurant owner in a Porsche or anything. Costco's markup is only 14%, and that's considered very low, it's the amount of volume as well as the memberships that make them profitable.


It doesn't matter what their profit margin is, since we're talking about them raising their prices to compensate for increased costs.  The whole Papa John's thing was him pitching a childish fit and saying that he would have to charge more per pizza to cover the cost of giving his employees health insurance.

It's really farking sad when someone seriously thinks "If you make me treat my employees better I'm going to charge you a tiny bit more for my product!" is an actual threat and not just common sense.
 
2014-03-13 03:03:42 PM
I'm always unclear where these 500,000 lost jobs would come from. I mean, you're talking about people who are already earning the minimum. These are people busing tables, working at McDonalds, bagging groceries and working cash registers, right? If the wage is raise, how many of these folks do businesses really expect to let go? They're already staffed at bare bones levels, and these kinds of jobs have already been automated as much as possible. Next time I go to McDonalds, is there going to be just 1 person working the register, the drive through window, and the grill?

If someone demands a high fee for their services, an employer can look for someone cheaper. But once you hit rock bottom, how do you eliminate that source of labor and still expect to run a business? Someone please help, I fear I simply do not understand real world economics.
 
2014-03-13 03:05:09 PM

Chummer45: It says a lot about our society when a large segment of our population opposes any law requiring the people serving them to be paid a living wage, on the basis that it might cause the restaurant to slightly increase its prices.

I guess that does, however, fit right in with the Ayn Rand "it's ok to be a douchebag" philosophy that many people in this country subscribe to.


I like that a large segment of our population apparently doesn't care whether or not food service employees have health insurance.
 
2014-03-13 03:07:36 PM

Mikey1969: Not restaurants.


most restaurants (assuming an actual restaurant and not fast food) would not have very many people getting paid in the range of minimum wage earners, though

Jim.Casy: If someone demands a high fee for their services, an employer can look for someone cheaper. But once you hit rock bottom, how do you eliminate that source of labor and still expect to run a business? Someone please help, I fear I simply do not understand real world economics.


wal-mart has been doing a case study on this for years now and seems to be doing ok
 
2014-03-13 03:11:54 PM
There have been a few studies on this. One side it shows slight job gains, on the other it shows slight job losses. Overall it shows, it doesn't make that big of difference in job creation/job loss which ever report you look at.
 
2014-03-13 03:14:29 PM

sprawl15: Jim.Casy: If someone demands a high fee for their services, an employer can look for someone cheaper. But once you hit rock bottom, how do you eliminate that source of labor and still expect to run a business? Someone please help, I fear I simply do not understand real world economics.

wal-mart has been doing a case study on this for years now and seems to be doing ok


I'm pretty sure they're fretting that same-store sales are dropping.
 
2014-03-13 03:18:18 PM
They just raised the minimum wage by 3% in the UK (which is more than inflation), so it'll be interesting to see what happens to pizza prices over there.
 
2014-03-13 03:19:23 PM

Serious Black: sprawl15: Jim.Casy: If someone demands a high fee for their services, an employer can look for someone cheaper. But once you hit rock bottom, how do you eliminate that source of labor and still expect to run a business? Someone please help, I fear I simply do not understand real world economics.

wal-mart has been doing a case study on this for years now and seems to be doing ok

I'm pretty sure they're fretting that same-store sales are dropping.


"shoppers came in less often because higher taxes and gasoline prices were leaving them with less spending money."
 
2014-03-13 03:23:23 PM

Corvus: There have been a few studies on this. One side it shows slight job gains, on the other it shows slight job losses. Overall it shows, it doesn't make that big of difference in job creation/job loss which ever report you look at.


The dilemma comes in when these "studies" involve math and numbers. The GOP has stated that numbers have a liberal bias so they prefer to go with what "feels" right to them.
 
2014-03-13 03:23:52 PM

sprawl15: Serious Black: sprawl15: Jim.Casy: If someone demands a high fee for their services, an employer can look for someone cheaper. But once you hit rock bottom, how do you eliminate that source of labor and still expect to run a business? Someone please help, I fear I simply do not understand real world economics.

wal-mart has been doing a case study on this for years now and seems to be doing ok

I'm pretty sure they're fretting that same-store sales are dropping.

"shoppers came in less often because higher taxes and gasoline prices were leaving them with less spending money."


That and cuts to food stamps...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/01/31/walmart-warns-food-stamp-cuts- hu rt-our-profits/
 
2014-03-13 03:31:01 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Remember when the Pappa John's guy freaked out because giving his employees health care would raise the cost of a pie 14 cents?


Yeah, and I say fark that shiatsteak and his craptastic pizza.
 
2014-03-13 03:31:50 PM

jst3p: sprawl15: Serious Black: sprawl15: Jim.Casy: If someone demands a high fee for their services, an employer can look for someone cheaper. But once you hit rock bottom, how do you eliminate that source of labor and still expect to run a business? Someone please help, I fear I simply do not understand real world economics.

wal-mart has been doing a case study on this for years now and seems to be doing ok

I'm pretty sure they're fretting that same-store sales are dropping.

"shoppers came in less often because higher taxes and gasoline prices were leaving them with less spending money."

That and cuts to food stamps...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/01/31/walmart-warns-food-stamp-cuts- hu rt-our-profits/


which is just as relevant as anything else that isn't a "we have lost sales because we took everyone off the floor except a 40 year old man with a skin disease who is playing the display video games with an obvious erection"
 
2014-03-13 03:39:16 PM

sprawl15: jst3p: sprawl15: Serious Black: sprawl15: Jim.Casy: If someone demands a high fee for their services, an employer can look for someone cheaper. But once you hit rock bottom, how do you eliminate that source of labor and still expect to run a business? Someone please help, I fear I simply do not understand real world economics.

wal-mart has been doing a case study on this for years now and seems to be doing ok

I'm pretty sure they're fretting that same-store sales are dropping.

"shoppers came in less often because higher taxes and gasoline prices were leaving them with less spending money."

That and cuts to food stamps...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/01/31/walmart-warns-food-stamp-cuts- hu rt-our-profits/

which is just as relevant as anything else that isn't a "we have lost sales because we took everyone off the floor except a 40 year old man with a skin disease who is playing the display video games with an obvious erection"


data3.whicdn.com
 
2014-03-13 03:39:27 PM
I don't care about all those unemployed people, but as a billionaire business owner, raising the minimum wage would certainly cut into my profits, and that's just unacceptable.

I know you'll agree, because I already bought me a congressman to advocate for my position on your behalf.
 
2014-03-13 03:40:45 PM
So the CBO study that said raising the federal minimum wage would lead to massive job losses over time was wrong?
 
2014-03-13 03:43:30 PM

jigger: So the CBO study that said raising the federal minimum wage would lead to massive job losses over time was wrong?


They usually are.
 
2014-03-13 03:44:03 PM
FTFA

In San Francisco, nonprofits and businesses with fewer than 10 employees were given two years to implement the higher pay.

I don't understand this- I understand the sentiment but wouldn't that mean that small businesses and non-profits would lose their better workers to businesses now paying the higher wage?
 
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