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(Autocar (UK))   "The simple fact is that Formula One just is not a sport. The driver in the best car wins, every single time and the dullness is overwhelming. F1 is just a bunch of automatons driving for faceless corporations"   (autocar.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Formula One, technological change  
•       •       •

966 clicks; posted to Sports » on 12 Mar 2014 at 9:39 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-12 09:11:11 AM  
.......What it should be is a no rules, all-out technological warfare between corporations or possibly countries, a bit like it was during the 1930s......

So machine guns and guided missiles at the front, oil slicks behind, and hiding around corners to ambush oncoming rivals. Then kill all the non-existent stewards and declare yourself the winner.   Oh, you are talking about war.
 
2014-03-12 09:23:37 AM  
that may be, but F1 drivers are some of the fittest athletes in the world.
 
2014-03-12 09:38:10 AM  
Then stop watching it.

You're welcome.
 
2014-03-12 09:41:06 AM  
Assuming the headline isn't trolling, I don't watch F1 and even I know that's a load of crap.
 
2014-03-12 09:45:18 AM  
The very notion is absurd.  As you can see from this link, there were at least three races that Mark Vettel didn't win last year.

Such an outrageous statement.
 
2014-03-12 09:45:26 AM  
I agree with his position. It's the same reason I could never get into modern NASCAR.

I'd love to see a racing series where each team starts with an actual stock production car within a set price range (say under $40,000) and each team has the same amount of money to modify it for racing (say $5,000, with safety equipment not coming out of that pool). Then have multiple courses throughout the season, some road courses, some ovals, some twisty tracks, etc, but each team has to stick with their initial car and modifications.
 
2014-03-12 09:46:53 AM  
Sorry, Sebastian Vettel.  I always confuse him with Webber, because I know someone named Mark Vettel.
 
2014-03-12 09:48:21 AM  
I like F1 more than I like other auto racing events. I guess I just love the cars. I do seem to remember that Schumacher won a lot of races in his prime coming from way back, but maybe that number is inflated.

Speaking of Schumi, I haven't read much chatter about his condition. Are the pulling the plug sometime soon?
 
2014-03-12 09:48:28 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: modify it for racing (say $5,000, with safety equipment not coming out of that pool)


Your figures are hopelessly low, but I like your style.
 
2014-03-12 09:49:05 AM  

Mateorocks: I like F1 more than I like other auto racing events. I guess I just love the cars. I do seem to remember that Schumacher won a lot of races in his prime coming from way back, but maybe that number is inflated.

Speaking of Schumi, I haven't read much chatter about his condition. Are the pulling the plug sometime soon?


He's fluttering his eyelids or something.
 
2014-03-12 09:52:38 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: I agree with his position. It's the same reason I could never get into modern NASCAR.

I'd love to see a racing series where each team starts with an actual stock production car within a set price range (say under $40,000) and each team has the same amount of money to modify it for racing (say $5,000, with safety equipment not coming out of that pool). Then have multiple courses throughout the season, some road courses, some ovals, some twisty tracks, etc, but each team has to stick with their initial car and modifications.


They have races like that, even races where everyone has an identical car, and you know what?  They're boooooring.  Reminiscent of restrictor plate racing at the superspeedways.
 
2014-03-12 09:53:27 AM  
Two words: Team Acrobatic.
 
2014-03-12 09:56:35 AM  

colinspooky: .......What it should be is a no rules, all-out technological warfare between corporations or possibly countries, a bit like it was during the 1930s......



My friends and I have discussed this concept as "Outlaw Formula"- fan cars, rocket thrusters, deployable outriggers, whatever. Would be awesome- the problem being, technology for racing is advanced enough that we can build cars that no human driver can operate, given the physics in play, and the reaction time at those speeds is less than anyone can manage.

However, remote-piloted "drone" cars capable of 300mph plus with no risk of life or loss of limb?

WHY IS THIS NOT A THING
 
2014-03-12 09:59:39 AM  
A Brit that doesn't like F1?

Dafaq??
 
2014-03-12 10:00:37 AM  

grinding_journalist: colinspooky: .......What it should be is a no rules, all-out technological warfare between corporations or possibly countries, a bit like it was during the 1930s......


My friends and I have discussed this concept as "Outlaw Formula"- fan cars, rocket thrusters, deployable outriggers, whatever. Would be awesome- the problem being, technology for racing is advanced enough that we can build cars that no human driver can operate, given the physics in play, and the reaction time at those speeds is less than anyone can manage.

However, remote-piloted "drone" cars capable of 300mph plus with no risk of life or loss of limb?

WHY IS THIS NOT A THING


That should be a thing, especially if we can get real-life Hot Wheels tracks with loops and barrel rolls for them to race on.
 
2014-03-12 10:01:04 AM  

OtherLittleGuy: Two words: Team Acrobatic.

speedrally.net
 
2014-03-12 10:01:11 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: I agree with his position. It's the same reason I could never get into modern NASCAR.

I'd love to see a racing series where each team starts with an actual stock production car within a set price range (say under $40,000) and each team has the same amount of money to modify it for racing (say $5,000, with safety equipment not coming out of that pool). Then have multiple courses throughout the season, some road courses, some ovals, some twisty tracks, etc, but each team has to stick with their initial car and modifications.


They exist already. Also, that's cheap enough anybody even remotely rich can do it. What would be the point of teams, sponsors, advertisement, 300,000 person crowds, or all the other stuff they make money from?

The integrity of the race is not even on the list.
 
2014-03-12 10:03:26 AM  

RichPoorBoy: They have races like that, even races where everyone has an identical car, and you know what? They're boooooring. Reminiscent of restrictor plate racing at the superspeedways.


depends on the series, the old VW Bug cup was supposed to be fun cause the drivers didn't give two shiats about their car and would just smash each other out of the way. I could see something like a FR-S or Morgan cup being fun, small, fast, and with almost no drivers aids
 
2014-03-12 10:05:12 AM  

cgraves67: grinding_journalist: colinspooky: .......What it should be is a no rules, all-out technological warfare between corporations or possibly countries, a bit like it was during the 1930s......


My friends and I have discussed this concept as "Outlaw Formula"- fan cars, rocket thrusters, deployable outriggers, whatever. Would be awesome- the problem being, technology for racing is advanced enough that we can build cars that no human driver can operate, given the physics in play, and the reaction time at those speeds is less than anyone can manage.

However, remote-piloted "drone" cars capable of 300mph plus with no risk of life or loss of limb?

WHY IS THIS NOT A THING

That should be a thing, especially if we can get real-life Hot Wheels tracks with loops and barrel rolls for them to race on.


I would totally watch that.
 
2014-03-12 10:07:13 AM  

RichPoorBoy: TuteTibiImperes: I agree with his position. It's the same reason I could never get into modern NASCAR.

I'd love to see a racing series where each team starts with an actual stock production car within a set price range (say under $40,000) and each team has the same amount of money to modify it for racing (say $5,000, with safety equipment not coming out of that pool). Then have multiple courses throughout the season, some road courses, some ovals, some twisty tracks, etc, but each team has to stick with their initial car and modifications.

They have races like that, even races where everyone has an identical car, and you know what?  They're boooooring.  Reminiscent of restrictor plate racing at the superspeedways.


I'm not saying everyone should have the same car, just that everyone should operate with the same budget, and the cars should bear a closer resemblance to what everyday people drive.

They could even set a combined figure for the car plus modifications to allow more creativity. One team might start with a $17,000 Civic and have $33,000 left over to make it faster, while another might start with a $30,000 Camaro and only have $20,000 leftover to modify.

Forcing the teams to use the same car on multiple types of tracks throughout the year would make them balance acceleration, top speed, handling, and fuel range. Driving skill would still matter, but so would creativity in engineering instead of just who can throw the most money at something.
 
2014-03-12 10:07:27 AM  
I can't wait for Google to introduce a fully automated F1 car. I'm surprised they haven't already
 
2014-03-12 10:08:17 AM  

Tr0mBoNe: The integrity of the race is not even on the list


Integrity is for losers.
 
2014-03-12 10:08:34 AM  
I love sports, mindless entertainment, and stupid shiat as much as the next guy, but jesus christ, the type of mind that is entertained by car racing....
 
2014-03-12 10:25:26 AM  
Sports car racing has been on an upswing in recent years, and the recent merger that turned into the TUDOR Championship is only supposed to help.

That said, sponsors don't back it like they will NASCAR.  Bear in mind that depending on who you listen to, NASCAR is now in charge of the most major forms of American sports car racing, so you would think that this would either be a positive thing or a step towards killing it completely.
 
2014-03-12 10:26:06 AM  
All car racing is boring.  You know what would make it not boring?  WEAPONS!

media.animevice.com
 
2014-03-12 10:28:57 AM  
This is just one more sport that has become boring due to the rules in play. Just open it up to allowing the car to be as fast as they want, but make them use a dirt track. Controlling incredibly speedy vehicles with poor control was how the sport originated.
 
2014-03-12 10:38:38 AM  
No, it's not a sport because it's about the quality of the automobile rather than the ability of the drivers.  It's not a sport because it's RACING WITH MOTOR VEHICLES.

You can point at a tube of chapstick and call it a pterodactyl, but that doesn't make it one.
 
2014-03-12 10:38:48 AM  
F1 is never going to be the all-out, give them chainsaws melee we want it to be. Development costs would just drive the sport into the ground.

But until they start racing things that can go around a track faster, it'll still be the pinnacle of motorsport, and I'll continue to watch it. But don't get me started on how they killed the "holy fark" F1 engine in anger sound. Bastards.
 
2014-03-12 10:40:55 AM  

zedster: RichPoorBoy: They have races like that, even races where everyone has an identical car, and you know what? They're boooooring. Reminiscent of restrictor plate racing at the superspeedways.

depends on the series, the old VW Bug cup was supposed to be fun cause the drivers didn't give two shiats about their car and would just smash each other out of the way. I could see something like a FR-S or Morgan cup being fun, small, fast, and with almost no drivers aids


Found it, the Fun Cup with VW Beatles
 
2014-03-12 10:41:55 AM  
I hope the author is wrong.   But probably not.
 
2014-03-12 10:44:18 AM  

cgraves67: grinding_journalist: colinspooky: .......What it should be is a no rules, all-out technological warfare between corporations or possibly countries, a bit like it was during the 1930s......


My friends and I have discussed this concept as "Outlaw Formula"- fan cars, rocket thrusters, deployable outriggers, whatever. Would be awesome- the problem being, technology for racing is advanced enough that we can build cars that no human driver can operate, given the physics in play, and the reaction time at those speeds is less than anyone can manage.

However, remote-piloted "drone" cars capable of 300mph plus with no risk of life or loss of limb?

WHY IS THIS NOT A THING

That should be a thing, especially if we can get real-life Hot Wheels tracks with loops and barrel rolls for them to race on.


Tell Steve Jackson Games to reprint Car Wars.

And this season WILL be utter chaos. Darth Newey's car is malfunctioning left and right; the KERS is a mess and their car won't stop catching fire. The Vettelparaden is over.

/Nico Rosberg, your 2014 WDC. Book it, done.
 
2014-03-12 10:46:56 AM  

pkellmey: This is just one more sport that has become boring due to the rules in play. Just open it up to allowing the car to be as fast as they want, but make them use a dirt track. Controlling incredibly speedy vehicles with poor control was how the sport originated.


"Incredibly Speedy" in 1931: 100mph

Incredibly speedy now: 250mph

See my point upthread about cars, technology, and human limitations. If you want insane dirt racing, watch the WRC. Or those little buggies with the HUGE top wing/spoiler, forget what they're called.

TuteTibiImperes: They could even set a combined figure for the car plus modifications to allow more creativity. One team might start with a $17,000 Civic and have $33,000 left over to make it faster, while another might start with a $30,000 Camaro and only have $20,000 leftover to modify.


While drag racing isn't as interesting to me as road course racing, that's basically what's going on in NHRA sanctioned drag events. Rules regard the power-adders allowed, and cars are classed by drivetrain (and sometimes displacement)- beyond that, you do what you can within the stated rules of the competition, which is why you'll see a '70 Nova squaring off against an '03 Vette.

Or, you can check out some of the more amateur racing series- if you're near a track, one or more of these will likely come to your area, including the Chump Car series, and LeMons series. Truly a "run whatcha brung" type of event with all manner of entrants and teams, and since they're amateur, you'll have much more access than you would at a NASCAR event.
 
2014-03-12 10:49:46 AM  

idesofmarch: No, it's not a sport because it's about the quality of the automobile rather than the ability of the drivers.  It's not a sport because it's RACING WITH MOTOR VEHICLES.

You can point at a tube of chapstick and call it a pterodactyl, but that doesn't make it one.


ESPN believes that playing cards is a sport, because it's all about the competition of the game. If darts and bowling can be considered sports, then at least racing fits the dictionary definition as well.
//However, I agree with you, but then I have a very limited personal definition of what is required to be a sport that golf and a few other sports don't fall into.
 
2014-03-12 10:51:15 AM  
I just watched Rush last night, so I'm getting a kick...
 
2014-03-12 10:54:57 AM  

nmrsnr: I just watched Rush last night, so I'm getting a kick...


Great movie.

It's too early for me to argue. I may come back to this thread once I have some coffee.
 
2014-03-12 10:56:43 AM  
Considering some of the tracks are much more difficult then turning left all the time I'd say it's far more of a sport then Nascar
 
2014-03-12 10:56:49 AM  

idesofmarch: No, it's not a sport because it's about the quality of the automobile rather than the ability of the drivers.  It's not a sport because it's RACING WITH MOTOR VEHICLES.

You can point at a tube of chapstick and call it a pterodactyl, but that doesn't make it one.


"There are but three true sports - bullfighting, mountain-climbing, and motor-racing.  The rest are merely games."

/surprisingly, not Hemingway.  Barnaby Conrad.
 
2014-03-12 11:02:11 AM  

pkellmey: ESPN believes that playing cards is a sport, because it's all about the competition of the game. If darts and bowling can be considered sports, then at least racing fits the dictionary definition as well.
//However, I agree with you, but then I have a very limited personal definition of what is required to be a sport that golf and a few other sports don't fall into.


ESPN are dumb jerks.  None of those are sports.  Chess has a rich history of intense competition and rivalry - it's still not a sport.  Golf I'm on the fence about - it may make the cut.

Clutch2013: "There are but three true sports - bullfighting, mountain-climbing, and motor-racing.  The rest are merely games."

/surprisingly, not Hemingway.  Barnaby Conrad.


An amusing quote, but still wrong.  Bullfighting and mountain climbing may qualify, but racing is still out.
 
2014-03-12 11:03:26 AM  

UNC_Samurai: Tell Steve Jackson Games to reprint Car Wars.


Oh. My. God. Car Wars.

CSB time.

I'm in high school, and good friends with a VERY Jewish guy (still friends, actually just saw him yesterday, but I digress) who has a little brother. He mentions that his lil bro's Bar Mitzvah is coming up, and it would be really cool if I could come because for one, I'd be the only other guy our age, and two, they're going to have this totally sweet new game they're going to play where you drive around in "war cars" and blow stuff up. I knew he was into TTG but I didn't put two and two together.

I go to the Mitzvah, have a nice dinner while being grilled by his relatives about the car I drive and how much my parents make (way to reinforce the stereotype, guys) and then his dad gets up on the mic and says "I hope everyone's ready for some vehicular destruction action, we've got CAR WARS set up in the other room!" I, like a number of the other kids, knew this was coming, an get very excited- we dash to the other room only to discover a few drafting tables set up with a couple hot wheels cars, a thick-ass rulebook, graph paper, and rulers. I, puzzled, ask my friend what the deal is, he says something like "its really simple and a lot of fun, I'll show you". Hoping against hope, I sit down, and ask if the rulers and paper are to measure distance so we can run the hot wheels cars at each other, or SOMETHING more interesting than a pen and paper game, and he says no, they're to help determine ranges and firing arcs. Now, the first thing you need to do is select a chassis, and pay attention to whether the hardpoints are light, medium, or heavy...

I stood up, and said "If you think a bunch of 12 and 13 year old boys and girls are gonna sit down for hours to learn how to play a tabletop "combat" game, much less PLAY it, you're just plain wrong. When you said car wars, we thought "fun!" when you meant "math!" The other kids seemed to agree, so we just took all the hot wheels cars around the venue, trying to find handrails and bannisters we could roll them down, which eventually turned into races. That was ACTUALLY fun, but I did feel bad about his lil bro, since I can still see him in my mind's eye hunched over that table, holding a pencil and graphing paper pad with a look in his eyes that said "I just don't UNDERSTAND why nobody will play this sweet game with me."

/his was still better than the guy who has beatles impersonators and an arcade room with f2p arcade games
//do you know how awkward it is when someone pauses in their scripted speech for a laugh that never comes, because nobody really likes you?
///his grandma quietly clapped politely and I died a little inside
 
2014-03-12 11:07:37 AM  

idesofmarch: An amusing quote, but still wrong.  Bullfighting and mountain climbing may qualify, but racing is still out.


When I think "sport" (and this thread DOES NOT need to turn into "what is a sport") I'm thinking of SOME type of competition, and I'm guessing most people, whatever their definitions of sport may be, probably include at least part of that sentiment.

Bullfighting and mountain climbing are not competitions, except in very specific circumstances. At least auto racing doesn't have arbitrary judging based on style points, like some "sports."
 
2014-03-12 11:10:05 AM  
Group N Rally laughs at F1's shenanigans.
 
2014-03-12 11:11:40 AM  

grinding_journalist: idesofmarch: An amusing quote, but still wrong.  Bullfighting and mountain climbing may qualify, but racing is still out.

When I think "sport" (and this thread DOES NOT need to turn into "what is a sport") I'm thinking of SOME type of competition, and I'm guessing most people, whatever their definitions of sport may be, probably include at least part of that sentiment.

Bullfighting and mountain climbing are not competitions, except in very specific circumstances. At least auto racing doesn't have arbitrary judging based on style points, like some "sports."


I'm pretty sure the quote is basically saying it's not a real sport unless you have a high probability of killing yourself in the process.
 
2014-03-12 11:12:22 AM  

grinding_journalist: UNC_Samurai: Tell Steve Jackson Games to reprint Car Wars.

Oh. My. God. Car Wars.


I actually had a lot of fun with that game, however after reading your story I can see you hung out with maybe less entertaining people that might have made the difference.
 
2014-03-12 11:16:13 AM  

idesofmarch: pkellmey: ESPN believes that playing cards is a sport, because it's all about the competition of the game. If darts and bowling can be considered sports, then at least racing fits the dictionary definition as well.
//However, I agree with you, but then I have a very limited personal definition of what is required to be a sport that golf and a few other sports don't fall into.

ESPN are dumb jerks.  None of those are sports.  Chess has a rich history of intense competition and rivalry - it's still not a sport.  Golf I'm on the fence about - it may make the cut.

Clutch2013: "There are but three true sports - bullfighting, mountain-climbing, and motor-racing.  The rest are merely games."

/surprisingly, not Hemingway.  Barnaby Conrad.

An amusing quote, but still wrong.  Bullfighting and mountain climbing may qualify, but racing is still out.


smuj.home.comcast.net

Typical endurance road racer:

www.drivesrt.com

Typical golfer:

i.cdn.turner.com

You want to think about that one again, buddy?
 
2014-03-12 11:25:15 AM  

pkellmey: grinding_journalist: UNC_Samurai: Tell Steve Jackson Games to reprint Car Wars.

Oh. My. God. Car Wars.

I actually had a lot of fun with that game, however after reading your story I can see you hung out with maybe less entertaining people that might have made the difference.


It probably is fun, but I wouldn't know- the time to learn how to play it is at home on a weekend evening with friends, food and beers, not as after dinner entertainment at a 12 year old's bar mitzvah. I'm currently embroiled in a robust DnD campaign (we killed the slavers who took the town hostage and instead of returning them home for rewards, we set up our own slaving/mining cartel. The GM is PISSED because we can't use tons of stuff he'd set up for us as a result of saving the villagers) so I'm no stranger to TTG. This weekend should be fun. I expect a TPK.

Another SCSB:

As far as the guy in question goes, he's a reasonable dude, just kinda "dry", and maybe a bit out of touch. I ran in to him yesterday at the Zoo, where he works doing research. He was observing the Somali Wild Asses and noting behavior patterns with a pack of interns. These things look REALLY similar, aside from stripe patterns on their legs. I asked if that was how he told them apart, and he said yeah, but also their ears are notched at birth, with each part of the ear having a number, so they could be noted as "M4 tries to mount F3" instead of "Ahwahouna tries to mount Zebahanka" (since they have culturally sensitive names based on location of origin or something). I asked him if it would screw everything up if I ran in there with a hole punch and just went nuts, and he looked at me deadpan and said "well, you don't have and training or background in biology, so I'm guessing you wouldn't know where to punch the holes."

/his interns chuckled
 
2014-03-12 11:26:31 AM  
Let the constructors compete agains the constructors and the drivers against the drivers.   Here's how:

Say 24 cars from 24 constructors of varying quality.  This is already happening  so no new effort needed.

24 drivers of varying quality.  Again, no new effort.

Concept:  The drivers rotate among the cars.  24 races?  24 different drivers drive each car, good and bad.  The best driver will have higher average result - winner!!   The car that wins the most will win the constructor's championship...

Above is a simplified version but the idea certainly solves the 'same driver in the best car' problem....
 
2014-03-12 11:37:24 AM  

grinding_journalist: idesofmarch: An amusing quote, but still wrong.  Bullfighting and mountain climbing may qualify, but racing is still out.

When I think "sport" (and this thread DOES NOT need to turn into "what is a sport") I'm thinking of SOME type of competition, and I'm guessing most people, whatever their definitions of sport may be, probably include at least part of that sentiment.

Bullfighting and mountain climbing are not competitions, except in very specific circumstances. At least auto racing doesn't have arbitrary judging based on style points, like some "sports."


Agreed, sport requires competition, but you could argue there's competition in bullfighting and mountain climbing.  Climbers will compete to find new paths up the same cliffs, or to do it faster than previous climbers, or to be the first to reach a certain peak.  Bullfighting, well - it's a man competing with a bull.  So I think you could tentatively call those sports.

Clutch2013: You want to think about that one again, buddy?


Based on those photos?  No.  Golfers can be old and out of shape, but at least in golf it is human physical senses and skills that are primarily in use during play.
 
2014-03-12 11:46:50 AM  

idesofmarch: Based on those photos?  No.  Golfers can be old and out of shape, but at least in golf it is human physical senses and skills that are primarily in use during play.


Wait, what you just described also allows competitive eating to be a sport. It is close to lunch, maybe I should begin practicing.
 
2014-03-12 11:46:54 AM  

grinding_journalist: colinspooky: .......What it should be is a no rules, all-out technological warfare between corporations or possibly countries, a bit like it was during the 1930s......


My friends and I have discussed this concept as "Outlaw Formula"- fan cars, rocket thrusters, deployable outriggers, whatever. Would be awesome- the problem being, technology for racing is advanced enough that we can build cars that no human driver can operate, given the physics in play, and the reaction time at those speeds is less than anyone can manage.

However, remote-piloted "drone" cars capable of 300mph plus with no risk of life or loss of limb?

WHY IS THIS NOT A THING


upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-03-12 11:48:44 AM  

idesofmarch: grinding_journalist: idesofmarch: An amusing quote, but still wrong.  Bullfighting and mountain climbing may qualify, but racing is still out.

When I think "sport" (and this thread DOES NOT need to turn into "what is a sport") I'm thinking of SOME type of competition, and I'm guessing most people, whatever their definitions of sport may be, probably include at least part of that sentiment.

Bullfighting and mountain climbing are not competitions, except in very specific circumstances. At least auto racing doesn't have arbitrary judging based on style points, like some "sports."

Agreed, sport requires competition, but you could argue there's competition in bullfighting and mountain climbing.  Climbers will compete to find new paths up the same cliffs, or to do it faster than previous climbers, or to be the first to reach a certain peak.  Bullfighting, well - it's a man competing with a bull.  So I think you could tentatively call those sports.

Clutch2013: You want to think about that one again, buddy?

Based on those photos?  No.  Golfers can be old and out of shape, but at least in golf it is human physical senses and skills that are primarily in use during play.


So you're saying drivers just sit there with eyes closed? They don't pay attention to tire wear, environmental conditions, other drivers, suicidal wildlife, parts flying off other vehicles and so on, pulling serious Gs knowing that they are a fraction of a second away from death at the slightest miscalculation? Yeah, you're right, I guess it isn't a sport that utilizes physical senses and skills in any way whatsoever.
 
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