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(Yahoo)   50 years later, Kitty Genovese's murder still fascinates. Somebody should probably submit a thread about it. Well, there are a ton of Farkers. I'm sure someone will get around to it   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 25
    More: Interesting, Kitty Genovese, New York, Kew Gardens, murders  
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4108 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2014 at 2:55 AM (29 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-12 06:12:08 AM
5 votes:
There's a fine line between debunking a myth and trying to rewrite history.  Whatever the claims, or updated claims, it's obvious there was trouble, but no one gave enough of a shiat about it for that woman to survive.

The bystander effect is real; I've see it firsthand.  Saw a woman get assaulted on a bus.  Another woman just walked right up to her and started mauling her.  Only one person did anything -- that was my dad, FSM carb-load his soul, but he was a fat desk worker with bum leg, so the only points I could give to him were for effort.  Everyone else just sat there, avoiding involvement.  The assailant had no weapons, but maybe if not for my dad she could've beaten her victim all the way to death.  Eventually the crazy got off the bus, laughing like a maniac.  I was a young boy about the height of a chair at the time, and it still bothers me that I at least didn't try to do something.  Everyone else?  Day that ends in y.

Since then I've jumped at all sorts of emergencies.  More recently I had to literally block off traffic with my body, daring people to run me over, so an ambulance -- lights blazing and sirens blaring, no less -- could get to a kid that had just been hit by a car.  Everyone was pissed that I was keeping them from getting to work for what wasn't even a minute.  And yes, I was the only one to do anything.  When I came in late to work everyone seemed annoyed that I'd taken time out of my day to try to save someone's life.  That's just one example.  I could go on, but I'm getting a bad taste in my mouth and this time it's not from going down on your mom.

"I don't give a shiat" isn't a syndrome in America; it's as American as America gets.  Of course a lot of ITGs like to pretend it's limited to cities but "mind your own business" is just as much a thing in the country.
2014-03-12 03:20:15 AM
4 votes:

robohobo: I get from the article that this was somehow a big deal, but why? What was so special? Was it just something like Adam Walsh or Etan..whatever his last name was? Just some random thing that caught? shiat like this happens every farking day. Why, 50 years on, is it still apparently a thing?


The Kitty Genovese murder got caught in a cultural echo chamber because of the "38 people watched and did nothing" allegation--sort of the first cultural meme. The whole nation went bugf*ck at the idea that a young girl could be raped and murdered in full view of 38 people who--so the story eventually became--never even called the police!!! (emphasis in original) Studies were done and the so-called "bystander effect" was created and sociologists opined that this was the first sign of the urban anomie plaguing America or whatever. Of course, the reality is way more complex, and yet much more simple.

In reality, yes, 38 people had some knowledge of the attack, in that they "heard something"--i.e. a woman screaming or calling for help; but it was late at night and the attack wasn't in plain view, so by the time anyone got to a window, there was nothing to see. Mosley carried out his assault in a doorway or hallway, if memory serves. A police canvas of the area the next day confirmed that between 20-40 people "heard something" which was where the "38 people" figure came from. Exactly one man admitted to yelling out the window at Mosley "Leave that girl alone," at some point during the attack, at which point Mosley left. Unfortunately for Genovese, he came back and finished her off a few minutes later. Obviously, someone DID call the cops; they arrived shortly after Genovese expired. Neighbors couldn't provide much information, because there hadn't been anything to see.

Much like ITGs today who are just sure that THEY would be able to take down a crazed mall shooter with unerring precision and cool demeanor, people in 1964 were convinced that THEY would have heard everything, called the police immediately and then gone at once to Genovese's aid; so nobody could understand how (once the press got through with the story) 38 people could stand and watch a woman being raped and murdered in cold blood and not lift a finger to help. Of course, the press was no more accurate then than they are today, so that wasn't the true story, but ever since, "Kitty Genovese's Murder" has been a catch phrase for people standing around watching and doing nothing as a crime is committed.
2014-03-12 06:55:24 AM
2 votes:
I was walking to class one day in college. In broad daylight, a man was trying to drag a screaming woman into his truck while dozens of people were walking by doing NOTHING.

Lucky for her I was walking by.  My friends said, "He could have had a gun or knife!" and I said, "How the hell was I supposed to live with myself if I didn't do something?"

So yeah, lots of people would do nothing.
2014-03-12 04:18:18 AM
2 votes:

Boojum2k: So nobody helped. That's pretty much the take-away on this.


No it isn't. People heard screaming outside and called the cops. Nobody charged out to confront a knife-wielding murderer (not that they even knew there was a murder happening - nobody could actually see the attack), that doesn't make them terrible people.

The take-away is that you shouldn't believe everything you see on the news.
2014-03-12 03:50:57 AM
2 votes:
oh ffs..

this is one of those myths that just needs to be put to death.

Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

f*cking sheeple.
2014-03-12 03:41:40 AM
2 votes:
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com

I do believe the Monsignor finally got a point.
2014-03-12 03:32:09 AM
2 votes:
The incident is really a police incompetence cover-up. There was no police foot patrol, so they had to blame the public. Basic policing in the past, two patrolmen on a circuit. But this was the leaded gas and air era, most people were a little damaged.
2014-03-12 07:31:07 PM
1 votes:
...relevant to my interests
2014-03-12 03:45:03 PM
1 votes:

Boojum2k: poot_rootbeer: And not helping someone in trouble doesn't make you a coward or a monster. At least not automatically.

This wasn't automatic, this was them cowardly watching or listening to a woman in need of help, who was stabbed, raped, and murdered.


MUCH better article here:  (looks like I was wrong on the lung wounds, though)

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2014/03/10/140310crbo_bo ok s_lemann?currentPage=all
2014-03-12 12:45:21 PM
1 votes:

Boojum2k: Rwa2play: I see reading comprehension's not your strong suit.

Better than yours. Or are you claiming that no one did see her, despite the article stating that up to a dozen did?


Evasion noted.
2014-03-12 11:29:01 AM
1 votes:

Boojum2k: Rwa2play: Boojum2k: saintstryfe: Only one person saw the attacker with her, and he believed the confrontation ended. The attacker came back.

So nobody helped. That's pretty much the take-away on this. She was attacked, people knew she was being attacked, and she was left to die. That they weren't actually standing there watching the attack is cold comfort.

Uhhh...did you read the previous posts or are you just trolling?

I read the article, and corrected myself when I read that yes, people actually watched her get attacked, and did nothing.


I see reading comprehension's not your strong suit.
2014-03-12 11:18:53 AM
1 votes:
new york
you sucked then and yer 50 years of accumulated feces since.
enjoy
2014-03-12 11:07:29 AM
1 votes:

Fissile: Moral of the story: Good Samaritans are suckers.


They are.  They definitely are.  There is absolutely no social or material reward for being a good person in this country.

But when I see an emergency, I'm going to try to do the right thing.  I might get injured, or even killed.  At best I might get sued.  Maybe thrown in jail.  But I don't make decisions based on any of that shiat.  It really doesn't matter where they put me; whatever the fark this country does to punish me isn't going to worse than the guilt of standing by all over again.

Yeah, I'm a farking sucker, but I don't do what I do expecting a goddamn parade.

/ if you help someone, for the love of FSM, don't give anyone your name
// as soon as the first responders take over, walk away -- they won't ask questions
2014-03-12 10:46:07 AM
1 votes:

Boojum2k: Gunther: once saw three men nearly beat a fourth to death outside the front of a library in broad daylight and it took maybe two minutes for the shock to wear off to the point where I could intervene (and even then, I wasn't the first person to).

Ah. That explains it. You're a coward, and therefore have to believe that everyone else is a coward or you'll think less of yourself.
I was wondering why you were fighting so hard to defend the indefensible.


So you live in the suburbs because it is safe and then call everyone who doesnt help someone in distress cowards for not intervening?  Is that how this is going?
2014-03-12 06:38:29 AM
1 votes:

Boojum2k: No, it's not a movie. She was really attacked, twice, she really didnt get any help until after both attacks, and she really died. And people really stood by and did nothing.


Thanks for clearing that up for me, all this time I thought we were watching an episode of Step By Step! Don't I feel like a silly goose now!


Boojum2k: I wouldn't stand by while a woman was repeatedly attacked


Yeah yeah, you'd charge in and beat the armed murderer down in an instant, wielding your massive cock like a truncheon. We can't all be as amazing as you, random internet tough guy.


Boojum2k: Are you saying that's what you would do? Because it sounds like you don't really consider it real


No, my point is that you can't blame people for not doing more if you haven't been in that kind of situation before. .

I once saw three men nearly beat a fourth to death outside the front of a library in broad daylight and it took maybe two minutes for the shock to wear off to the point where I could intervene (and even then, I wasn't the first person to). You see something like that and your brain goes all instinctual "fight or flight" on you. Everyone always thinks they'd act sensibly in a crisis before they've experienced a crisis.
2014-03-12 06:27:54 AM
1 votes:
CSB:

In my much younger years (old enough to drive but not old enough to purchase alcohol), in the midst of an early-adulthood fit of nihilism, I was dared by friends to knock down the realty "for sale" sign on the lawn of some random house, using a baseball bat. IIRC, it was about 9:45 pm or so. Challenge accepted. I walked up to the sign, screamed at the top of my lungs, "batter up!" and knocked the sign up, causing further enormous racket. The stupid rush that followed was addictive, so my hooligan friends and I proceeded to wander through the neighborhood - on foot - carrying a baseball bat - and repeating the "batter up!" battle cry while knocking down another four or five such signs over the next hour or so... all in an area comprising maybe 10 suburban blocks.

My hooligan friends and I committed several such flagrantly stupid acts, and to this day I often wonder why the cops never got us. We certainly deserved a good arrestin', at least. Or a shot of rock salt to the gut.

But we never so much as saw a cop car that particular night. So yeah, people are apathetic... or VERY deep sleepers.
2014-03-12 05:51:35 AM
1 votes:

Boojum2k: At least a dozen people decided it was a "lover's quarrel" or a drunk, and claimed they didn't see any wounds.


Sure, they'd be easy to miss at night from a distant window, especially when you had no reason to believe otherwise, hindsight being 20/20 and all that. What's your point?

Boojum2k: Moseley got to attack her twice with no one helping her.

You keep making these kind of emotionally charged posts as though the few bystanders who realized what was happening were all appalling people for not risking their own lives fighting an armed psycho and instead called the cops like normal people. Real life isn't a movie, you get that right?
2014-03-12 05:31:15 AM
1 votes:

Gunther: Boojum2k: I guess bringing her inside would have got blood on their nice clean floors. Truly, brave heroes all, unfairly maligned. *spit*

Everyone assumes they'd be great in a crisis - most people aren't. I guess I find it hard to judge them as harshly as you do for not charging out into the night and karate-chopping the knife-wielding murderer into submission.

The way this story has always been portrayed in the media is that 38 neighbors watched her get murdered and did nothing. In reality it was very different - even your own quote says that only a few neighbors had an idea of what was happening and of those, some tried to help.


Wikipedia has a good write-up on it. One woman held Kitty after the second attack and waited with her for the ambulance, and the first call to the police occurred after that second attack. At least a dozen people decided it was a "lover's quarrel" or a drunk, and claimed they didn't see any wounds. Apparently being stabbed in the back doesn't make you bleed in NYC.
No, really, apart from Sophia Farrar and Karl Ross, the roughly dozen people who saw her either being attacked or between attacks, and the neighbors who tuned out the sounds of a woman screaming, deserve all the scorn they have received and will continue to receive. Moseley got to attack her twice with no one helping her.
2014-03-12 05:19:53 AM
1 votes:

Boojum2k: I guess bringing her inside would have got blood on their nice clean floors. Truly, brave heroes all, unfairly maligned. *spit*


Everyone assumes they'd be great in a crisis - most people aren't. I guess I find it hard to judge them as harshly as you do for not charging out into the night and karate-chopping the knife-wielding murderer into submission.

The way this story has always been portrayed in the media is that 38 neighbors watched her get murdered and did nothing. In reality it was very different - even your own quote says that only a few neighbors had an idea of what was happening and of those, some tried to help.
2014-03-12 04:35:30 AM
1 votes:

Boojum2k: robohobo: It does make them average city dwellers, though.

Good reason not to live in a big city. The people suck, and you'll turn into one of them eventually.


I've lived in both Manhattan and Chicago. I met a lot of good, decent people. But I also saw a shiat-ton of 'looking the other way' while I was scoffed at for stepping in. Nothing so crazy as this story, though. Having lived in smalltown Kansas for a long while now, this shiat would NOT pass. Cops in my town have a less than a 90 second response rate. Also, dogs. Dogs everywhere. Hard to get away with shiat when everyone has dogs. Even the terrified of guns crowd like dogs. No better alarm system.
2014-03-12 04:08:05 AM
1 votes:

calbert: Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.


It wasn't only about slavery, but slavery was by far the most important issue. People who deny that aren't heroically striking down widely held falsehoods, they're historical revisionists.
2014-03-12 04:01:30 AM
1 votes:

Boojum2k: So, she lived? They heard the attack, her cries for help, they intervened, and she survived?


As previously stated, people heard "something". Small bits. Only one person saw the attacker with her, and he believed the confrontation ended. The attacker came back.

In other words, no, she didn't live. But They didn't hear the attack or the cries for help.

it's a myth written by people who want to tell us either that we all need constant police monitoring, or that cities are depraved places and we all need to live in the suburbs.
2014-03-12 03:14:26 AM
1 votes:
I'd comment, but I don't want to get involved.
2014-03-12 03:10:58 AM
1 votes:
I do believe the monsignor's finally got the point.
2014-03-12 01:27:09 AM
1 votes:
Wasn't there a recent thread were an investigative journalist claims he has evidence that multiple residents tried to intervene, and there were dozens of calls to the police?  The police dispatcher and the watch captain screwed things up so badly that the cops didn't arrive until the next day.  The NYPD covered up their own incompetence by claiming the "heartless" residents never called them.
 
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