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(Yahoo)   50 years later, Kitty Genovese's murder still fascinates. Somebody should probably submit a thread about it. Well, there are a ton of Farkers. I'm sure someone will get around to it   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 105
    More: Interesting, Kitty Genovese, New York, Kew Gardens, murders  
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4108 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2014 at 2:55 AM (29 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-12 12:07:01 AM
Maybe they thought she was related to Vito and they didn't see nuthin?
 
2014-03-12 12:25:10 AM
myfullcirclelife.com
 
2014-03-12 01:27:09 AM
Wasn't there a recent thread were an investigative journalist claims he has evidence that multiple residents tried to intervene, and there were dozens of calls to the police?  The police dispatcher and the watch captain screwed things up so badly that the cops didn't arrive until the next day.  The NYPD covered up their own incompetence by claiming the "heartless" residents never called them.
 
2014-03-12 01:32:37 AM

Sgt Otter: Wasn't there a recent thread were an investigative journalist claims he has evidence that multiple residents tried to intervene, and there were dozens of calls to the police?  The police dispatcher and the watch captain screwed things up so badly that the cops didn't arrive until the next day.  The NYPD covered up their own incompetence by claiming the "heartless" residents never called them.


Yes. Yes there was.
 
2014-03-12 02:58:23 AM
*heavy sigh*
 
2014-03-12 03:00:47 AM
Is it Caterday already?
 
2014-03-12 03:01:00 AM
img3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-03-12 03:02:38 AM

Sgt Otter: Wasn't there a recent thread were an investigative journalist claims he has evidence that multiple residents tried to intervene, and there were dozens of calls to the police?  The police dispatcher and the watch captain screwed things up so badly that the cops didn't arrive until the next day.  The NYPD covered up their own incompetence by claiming the "heartless" residents never called them.


this one
 
2014-03-12 03:03:57 AM
Genovese emerges in the new books as a compelling figure in her own right, a high-spirited young woman known as the class cut-up in high school.

Karen might want an editor
 
2014-03-12 03:07:06 AM
I get from the article that this was somehow a big deal, but why? What was so special? Was it just something like Adam Walsh or Etan..whatever his last name was? Just some random thing that caught? shiat like this happens every farking day. Why, 50 years on, is it still apparently a thing?
 
2014-03-12 03:08:47 AM
Bookmark
 
2014-03-12 03:10:58 AM
I do believe the monsignor's finally got the point.
 
2014-03-12 03:14:26 AM
I'd comment, but I don't want to get involved.
 
2014-03-12 03:15:53 AM
i2.cdn.turner.com
RIP Kitty Forman
 
2014-03-12 03:20:15 AM

robohobo: I get from the article that this was somehow a big deal, but why? What was so special? Was it just something like Adam Walsh or Etan..whatever his last name was? Just some random thing that caught? shiat like this happens every farking day. Why, 50 years on, is it still apparently a thing?


The Kitty Genovese murder got caught in a cultural echo chamber because of the "38 people watched and did nothing" allegation--sort of the first cultural meme. The whole nation went bugf*ck at the idea that a young girl could be raped and murdered in full view of 38 people who--so the story eventually became--never even called the police!!! (emphasis in original) Studies were done and the so-called "bystander effect" was created and sociologists opined that this was the first sign of the urban anomie plaguing America or whatever. Of course, the reality is way more complex, and yet much more simple.

In reality, yes, 38 people had some knowledge of the attack, in that they "heard something"--i.e. a woman screaming or calling for help; but it was late at night and the attack wasn't in plain view, so by the time anyone got to a window, there was nothing to see. Mosley carried out his assault in a doorway or hallway, if memory serves. A police canvas of the area the next day confirmed that between 20-40 people "heard something" which was where the "38 people" figure came from. Exactly one man admitted to yelling out the window at Mosley "Leave that girl alone," at some point during the attack, at which point Mosley left. Unfortunately for Genovese, he came back and finished her off a few minutes later. Obviously, someone DID call the cops; they arrived shortly after Genovese expired. Neighbors couldn't provide much information, because there hadn't been anything to see.

Much like ITGs today who are just sure that THEY would be able to take down a crazed mall shooter with unerring precision and cool demeanor, people in 1964 were convinced that THEY would have heard everything, called the police immediately and then gone at once to Genovese's aid; so nobody could understand how (once the press got through with the story) 38 people could stand and watch a woman being raped and murdered in cold blood and not lift a finger to help. Of course, the press was no more accurate then than they are today, so that wasn't the true story, but ever since, "Kitty Genovese's Murder" has been a catch phrase for people standing around watching and doing nothing as a crime is committed.
 
2014-03-12 03:22:17 AM
upload.wikimedia.org
RIP Vito Genovese
 
2014-03-12 03:25:47 AM

Gyrfalcon: robohobo: I get from the article that this was somehow a big deal, but why? What was so special? Was it just something like Adam Walsh or Etan..whatever his last name was? Just some random thing that caught? shiat like this happens every farking day. Why, 50 years on, is it still apparently a thing?

The Kitty Genovese murder got caught in a cultural echo chamber because of the "38 people watched and did nothing" allegation--sort of the first cultural meme. The whole nation went bugf*ck at the idea that a young girl could be raped and murdered in full view of 38 people who--so the story eventually became--never even called the police!!! (emphasis in original) Studies were done and the so-called "bystander effect" was created and sociologists opined that this was the first sign of the urban anomie plaguing America or whatever. Of course, the reality is way more complex, and yet much more simple.

In reality, yes, 38 people had some knowledge of the attack, in that they "heard something"--i.e. a woman screaming or calling for help; but it was late at night and the attack wasn't in plain view, so by the time anyone got to a window, there was nothing to see. Mosley carried out his assault in a doorway or hallway, if memory serves. A police canvas of the area the next day confirmed that between 20-40 people "heard something" which was where the "38 people" figure came from. Exactly one man admitted to yelling out the window at Mosley "Leave that girl alone," at some point during the attack, at which point Mosley left. Unfortunately for Genovese, he came back and finished her off a few minutes later. Obviously, someone DID call the cops; they arrived shortly after Genovese expired. Neighbors couldn't provide much information, because there hadn't been anything to see.

Much like ITGs today who are just sure that THEY would be able to take down a crazed mall shooter with unerring precision and cool demeanor, people in 1964 were convinced that THEY would have heard everythi ...


Thanks for explanation. This was 15 years before my time and I've never heard of her, I don't think, before tonight. If I did, it was just some passing comment.  Reading the wiki now.

As an aside, I would think shiat like this has gone down forever, and it was largely people just being people. Who knows, though.
 
2014-03-12 03:28:40 AM
I am not one of "those guys," but in Oregon, I would have probably shot that guy two or three times to put him down. In New York City, that is not really a good legal option (and I am not criticizing NYC for its strict gun laws).
 
2014-03-12 03:32:09 AM
The incident is really a police incompetence cover-up. There was no police foot patrol, so they had to blame the public. Basic policing in the past, two patrolmen on a circuit. But this was the leaded gas and air era, most people were a little damaged.
 
2014-03-12 03:41:40 AM
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com

I do believe the Monsignor finally got a point.
 
2014-03-12 03:50:57 AM
oh ffs..

this is one of those myths that just needs to be put to death.

Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

f*cking sheeple.
 
2014-03-12 03:54:41 AM

calbert: the American Civil War was not about slavery,


Dude, you're asking for an entirely different thread begging to go into hundreds of posts. You're on Fark, remember?
 
2014-03-12 03:56:06 AM
"calbert: oh ffs..

this is one of those myths that just needs to be put to death.

Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

f*cking sheeple."


Obscure?
 
2014-03-12 03:59:07 AM

calbert: oh ffs..

this is one of those myths that just needs to be put to death.

Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

f*cking sheeple.


So, she lived? They heard the attack, her cries for help, they intervened, and she survived?

/Also, "the American Civil War was not about slavery?" Seriously?  The only farking 'states right' that was involved was the right to keep slaves.
 
2014-03-12 04:00:25 AM

farkingismybusiness: Obscure?


If it's some dipshiatty callback from somewhere else, then yes, apparently it's obscure.
 
2014-03-12 04:01:30 AM

Boojum2k: So, she lived? They heard the attack, her cries for help, they intervened, and she survived?


As previously stated, people heard "something". Small bits. Only one person saw the attacker with her, and he believed the confrontation ended. The attacker came back.

In other words, no, she didn't live. But They didn't hear the attack or the cries for help.

it's a myth written by people who want to tell us either that we all need constant police monitoring, or that cities are depraved places and we all need to live in the suburbs.
 
2014-03-12 04:01:38 AM

Harry_Seldon: I am not one of "those guys," but in Oregon, I would have probably shot that guy two or three times to put him down.


You are exactly one of "those guys" if by "those guys" you mean "internet tough guy".
 
2014-03-12 04:05:12 AM
Wow, that was fifty years ago? I remember when that story was the big news. '64 was the year I graduated HS.
People were really disgusted withthat story.
 
2014-03-12 04:05:35 AM

saintstryfe: Only one person saw the attacker with her, and he believed the confrontation ended. The attacker came back.


So nobody helped. That's pretty much the take-away on this. She was attacked, people knew she was being attacked, and she was left to die. That they weren't actually standing there watching the attack is cold comfort.
 
2014-03-12 04:08:05 AM

calbert: Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.


It wasn't only about slavery, but slavery was by far the most important issue. People who deny that aren't heroically striking down widely held falsehoods, they're historical revisionists.
 
2014-03-12 04:09:42 AM

saintstryfe: that cities are depraved places and we all need to live in the suburbs.


So your contention is that cities have less crime than the suburbs, per capita? City crime has dropped faster than suburb crime, but it still rapes and murders suburb crime.
 
2014-03-12 04:10:38 AM

cig-mkr: Wow, that was fifty years ago? I remember when that story was the big news. '64 was the year I graduated HS.
People were really disgusted withthat story.


Do you have any interesting anecdotes?
I'm serious. It'd be interesting to hear a first-hand account of the gossip for this.
 
2014-03-12 04:15:25 AM

God-is-a-Taco: cig-mkr: Wow, that was fifty years ago? I remember when that story was the big news. '64 was the year I graduated HS.
People were really disgusted withthat story.

Do you have any interesting anecdotes?
I'm serious. It'd be interesting to hear a first-hand account of the gossip for this.


Me too. As someone who was in elementary school when Adam Walsh was butchered, this is interesting. I remember my mom freaking the fark out. My dad was off somewhere being a spy.
 
2014-03-12 04:18:18 AM

Boojum2k: So nobody helped. That's pretty much the take-away on this.


No it isn't. People heard screaming outside and called the cops. Nobody charged out to confront a knife-wielding murderer (not that they even knew there was a murder happening - nobody could actually see the attack), that doesn't make them terrible people.

The take-away is that you shouldn't believe everything you see on the news.
 
2014-03-12 04:22:45 AM

Gunther: People heard screaming outside and called the cops.


And left a woman bleeding and time for the attacker to come back and finish the job. Yay.

It doesn't make them good people, either.
 
2014-03-12 04:25:03 AM

Boojum2k: Gunther: People heard screaming outside and called the cops.

And left a woman bleeding and time for the attacker to come back and finish the job. Yay.

It doesn't make them good people, either.


It does make them average city dwellers, though.
 
2014-03-12 04:28:23 AM

robohobo: It does make them average city dwellers, though.


Good reason not to live in a big city. The people suck, and you'll turn into one of them eventually.
 
2014-03-12 04:32:15 AM

Gunther: Harry_Seldon: I am not one of "those guys," but in Oregon, I would have probably shot that guy two or three times to put him down.

You are exactly one of "those guys" if by "those guys" you mean "internet tough guy".


Dunno, never been put in the situation. I only have one weapon, but I am not that experienced with it. It is a Ruger LCR double action revolver with a front sight. I spent six years in the Army (it's been a while), so I have some weapons training. My ex-wife of ten years is a deputy sheriff, and she kept me in practice. She probably would have no trouble, but then again, she would have probably beat the crap out of him with her baton. She had more practice with that when she worked in county jail.
 
2014-03-12 04:35:30 AM

Boojum2k: robohobo: It does make them average city dwellers, though.

Good reason not to live in a big city. The people suck, and you'll turn into one of them eventually.


I've lived in both Manhattan and Chicago. I met a lot of good, decent people. But I also saw a shiat-ton of 'looking the other way' while I was scoffed at for stepping in. Nothing so crazy as this story, though. Having lived in smalltown Kansas for a long while now, this shiat would NOT pass. Cops in my town have a less than a 90 second response rate. Also, dogs. Dogs everywhere. Hard to get away with shiat when everyone has dogs. Even the terrified of guns crowd like dogs. No better alarm system.
 
2014-03-12 04:36:20 AM

God-is-a-Taco: cig-mkr: Wow, that was fifty years ago? I remember when that story was the big news. '64 was the year I graduated HS.
People were really disgusted withthat story.

Do you have any interesting anecdotes?
I'm serious. It'd be interesting to hear a first-hand account of the gossip for this.


Not really, everyone knew the cops were corrupt, not only in NY, but all over the country. Hell, anyone could get a ticket fixed for a few bucks and most of them were on the take. Oh yea, the newspapers went BS about how the people in NY just didn't give a crap about anyone. It really was quite the black eye for NYPD.
 
2014-03-12 04:38:54 AM
My

robohobo: Boojum2k: Gunther: People heard screaming outside and called the cops.

And left a woman bleeding and time for the attacker to come back and finish the job. Yay.

It doesn't make them good people, either.

It does make them average city dwellers, though.

 
They called the cops!  Why in hell should anyone risk their life to save a woman who was doing a fine job of risking her own life as it was.  Thank goodness none of the citizens had guns to help her out.  In 1964, people didn't kill people, lousy police dispatchers did.
 
2014-03-12 04:39:00 AM

Boojum2k: And left a woman bleeding and time for the attacker to come back and finish the job. Yay.


Again, they just heard screams. There weren't any windows that overlooked where the murder took place. They called the cops but they didn't rush out into the unknown to confront potentially multiple armed criminals (as far as they knew) and they've been publicly shamed for not doing so for 50 years.
 
2014-03-12 04:47:31 AM

Gunther: Again, they just heard screams. There weren't any windows that overlooked where the murder took place.


And again, the long time story is that they knew she was being attacked and did nothing to help. Which is true. Calling the cops didn't help her. I doubt their years of shame have hurt more than one of her knife wounds.
 
2014-03-12 04:51:39 AM

Gunther: Again, they just heard screams.

FTA
Kevin Cook, author of "Kitty Genovese: The Murder, the Bystanders, the Crime That Changed America," argues that only a few neighbors saw enough of the attack to understand much of what was going on, and some of them tried to help.

I guess bringing her inside would have got blood on their nice clean floors. Truly, brave heroes all, unfairly maligned. *spit*
 
2014-03-12 05:05:26 AM

robohobo: Also, dogs. Dogs everywhere. Hard to get away with shiat when everyone has dogs. Even the terrified of guns crowd like dogs. No better alarm system.


Could you imagine getting attacked by one of these vicious creatures?
 
2014-03-12 05:19:53 AM

Boojum2k: I guess bringing her inside would have got blood on their nice clean floors. Truly, brave heroes all, unfairly maligned. *spit*


Everyone assumes they'd be great in a crisis - most people aren't. I guess I find it hard to judge them as harshly as you do for not charging out into the night and karate-chopping the knife-wielding murderer into submission.

The way this story has always been portrayed in the media is that 38 neighbors watched her get murdered and did nothing. In reality it was very different - even your own quote says that only a few neighbors had an idea of what was happening and of those, some tried to help.
 
2014-03-12 05:30:48 AM

cig-mkr: God-is-a-Taco: cig-mkr: Wow, that was fifty years ago? I remember when that story was the big news. '64 was the year I graduated HS.
People were really disgusted withthat story.

Do you have any interesting anecdotes?
I'm serious. It'd be interesting to hear a first-hand account of the gossip for this.

Not really, everyone knew the cops were corrupt, not only in NY, but all over the country. Hell, anyone could get a ticket fixed for a few bucks and most of them were on the take. Oh yea, the newspapers went BS about how the people in NY just didn't give a crap about anyone. It really was quite the black eye for NYPD.


Ooooh, I totally forgot about getting tickets fixed - haven't gotten a ticket in 30+ years.

/that part was nice
//not worth the trade-off tho
 
2014-03-12 05:31:15 AM

Gunther: Boojum2k: I guess bringing her inside would have got blood on their nice clean floors. Truly, brave heroes all, unfairly maligned. *spit*

Everyone assumes they'd be great in a crisis - most people aren't. I guess I find it hard to judge them as harshly as you do for not charging out into the night and karate-chopping the knife-wielding murderer into submission.

The way this story has always been portrayed in the media is that 38 neighbors watched her get murdered and did nothing. In reality it was very different - even your own quote says that only a few neighbors had an idea of what was happening and of those, some tried to help.


Wikipedia has a good write-up on it. One woman held Kitty after the second attack and waited with her for the ambulance, and the first call to the police occurred after that second attack. At least a dozen people decided it was a "lover's quarrel" or a drunk, and claimed they didn't see any wounds. Apparently being stabbed in the back doesn't make you bleed in NYC.
No, really, apart from Sophia Farrar and Karl Ross, the roughly dozen people who saw her either being attacked or between attacks, and the neighbors who tuned out the sounds of a woman screaming, deserve all the scorn they have received and will continue to receive. Moseley got to attack her twice with no one helping her.
 
2014-03-12 05:39:42 AM

saintstryfe: [encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 270x186]

I do believe the Monsignor finally got a point.


Thread over and you win one free internet. I came here looking for a Boondock Saints reference and was glad to see that I wasn't the only thinking about that.
 
2014-03-12 05:40:07 AM
I don't know if it was this case in particular, but was a lot of the following media hype being pushed by the Helen Lovejoy types? Something to the effect of "this is TV destroying the morality of our nation, in action!". Or pushing the idea that people were now unable to distinguish between real situations that needed intervention, and acted scenes?
 
2014-03-12 05:51:35 AM

Boojum2k: At least a dozen people decided it was a "lover's quarrel" or a drunk, and claimed they didn't see any wounds.


Sure, they'd be easy to miss at night from a distant window, especially when you had no reason to believe otherwise, hindsight being 20/20 and all that. What's your point?

Boojum2k: Moseley got to attack her twice with no one helping her.

You keep making these kind of emotionally charged posts as though the few bystanders who realized what was happening were all appalling people for not risking their own lives fighting an armed psycho and instead called the cops like normal people. Real life isn't a movie, you get that right?
 
2014-03-12 06:12:08 AM
There's a fine line between debunking a myth and trying to rewrite history.  Whatever the claims, or updated claims, it's obvious there was trouble, but no one gave enough of a shiat about it for that woman to survive.

The bystander effect is real; I've see it firsthand.  Saw a woman get assaulted on a bus.  Another woman just walked right up to her and started mauling her.  Only one person did anything -- that was my dad, FSM carb-load his soul, but he was a fat desk worker with bum leg, so the only points I could give to him were for effort.  Everyone else just sat there, avoiding involvement.  The assailant had no weapons, but maybe if not for my dad she could've beaten her victim all the way to death.  Eventually the crazy got off the bus, laughing like a maniac.  I was a young boy about the height of a chair at the time, and it still bothers me that I at least didn't try to do something.  Everyone else?  Day that ends in y.

Since then I've jumped at all sorts of emergencies.  More recently I had to literally block off traffic with my body, daring people to run me over, so an ambulance -- lights blazing and sirens blaring, no less -- could get to a kid that had just been hit by a car.  Everyone was pissed that I was keeping them from getting to work for what wasn't even a minute.  And yes, I was the only one to do anything.  When I came in late to work everyone seemed annoyed that I'd taken time out of my day to try to save someone's life.  That's just one example.  I could go on, but I'm getting a bad taste in my mouth and this time it's not from going down on your mom.

"I don't give a shiat" isn't a syndrome in America; it's as American as America gets.  Of course a lot of ITGs like to pretend it's limited to cities but "mind your own business" is just as much a thing in the country.
 
2014-03-12 06:20:43 AM

Gunther: Boojum2k: At least a dozen people decided it was a "lover's quarrel" or a drunk, and claimed they didn't see any wounds.

Sure, they'd be easy to miss at night from a distant window, especially when you had no reason to believe otherwise, hindsight being 20/20 and all that. What's your point?

Boojum2k: Moseley got to attack her twice with no one helping her.

You keep making these kind of emotionally charged posts as though the few bystanders who realized what was happening were all appalling people for not risking their own lives fighting an armed psycho and instead called the cops like normal people. Real life isn't a movie, you get that right?


No, it's not a movie. She was really attacked, twice, she really didnt get any help until after both attacks, and she really died. And people really stood by and did nothing.
Are you saying that's what you would do? Because it sounds like you don't really consider it real, that there is nothing wrong with ignoring a woman being stabbed, raped, and murdered.
I don't carry a gun, I don't have any fancy martial arts training, and I'm no badass, but I wouldn't stand by while a woman was repeatedly attacked and make up stories after the fact that I somehow saw something else that wasn't there. Is that what you would do? The witnesses aren't being unfairly treated, they didnt help. Apart from one guy, they didnt call the cops either.
 
2014-03-12 06:27:54 AM
CSB:

In my much younger years (old enough to drive but not old enough to purchase alcohol), in the midst of an early-adulthood fit of nihilism, I was dared by friends to knock down the realty "for sale" sign on the lawn of some random house, using a baseball bat. IIRC, it was about 9:45 pm or so. Challenge accepted. I walked up to the sign, screamed at the top of my lungs, "batter up!" and knocked the sign up, causing further enormous racket. The stupid rush that followed was addictive, so my hooligan friends and I proceeded to wander through the neighborhood - on foot - carrying a baseball bat - and repeating the "batter up!" battle cry while knocking down another four or five such signs over the next hour or so... all in an area comprising maybe 10 suburban blocks.

My hooligan friends and I committed several such flagrantly stupid acts, and to this day I often wonder why the cops never got us. We certainly deserved a good arrestin', at least. Or a shot of rock salt to the gut.

But we never so much as saw a cop car that particular night. So yeah, people are apathetic... or VERY deep sleepers.
 
2014-03-12 06:38:29 AM

Boojum2k: No, it's not a movie. She was really attacked, twice, she really didnt get any help until after both attacks, and she really died. And people really stood by and did nothing.


Thanks for clearing that up for me, all this time I thought we were watching an episode of Step By Step! Don't I feel like a silly goose now!


Boojum2k: I wouldn't stand by while a woman was repeatedly attacked


Yeah yeah, you'd charge in and beat the armed murderer down in an instant, wielding your massive cock like a truncheon. We can't all be as amazing as you, random internet tough guy.


Boojum2k: Are you saying that's what you would do? Because it sounds like you don't really consider it real


No, my point is that you can't blame people for not doing more if you haven't been in that kind of situation before. .

I once saw three men nearly beat a fourth to death outside the front of a library in broad daylight and it took maybe two minutes for the shock to wear off to the point where I could intervene (and even then, I wasn't the first person to). You see something like that and your brain goes all instinctual "fight or flight" on you. Everyone always thinks they'd act sensibly in a crisis before they've experienced a crisis.
 
2014-03-12 06:55:24 AM
I was walking to class one day in college. In broad daylight, a man was trying to drag a screaming woman into his truck while dozens of people were walking by doing NOTHING.

Lucky for her I was walking by.  My friends said, "He could have had a gun or knife!" and I said, "How the hell was I supposed to live with myself if I didn't do something?"

So yeah, lots of people would do nothing.
 
2014-03-12 08:09:10 AM
I saw a show recently that explained that this all happened to Kitty outside of an apartment building after dark in an unlit area.  Still, it was disturbing, especially back then, that nobody even bothered to call the police.

What's even worse is that now they stand around and record your demise on their smart phones while they do nothing.  You people are lower than whale shiat.
 
2014-03-12 08:26:14 AM
The story is more of psychological anecdote than anything.  And it truly does happen, which is why I will always jump in if someone is in trouble.  Sometimes that has been the wrong thing to do, but hell, at least I tried.  My intervention has caused no harm, and it made me feel better to know I wasn't part of the Kitty Genovese syndrome.
 
2014-03-12 08:49:28 AM
People didn't do anything because they didn't know what was happening!

Christ. It's not like they had time to review the Genovese Murder Wikipedia page before rushing downstairs.
 
2014-03-12 08:52:59 AM

Boojum2k: Gunther: Boojum2k: At least a dozen people decided it was a "lover's quarrel" or a drunk, and claimed they didn't see any wounds.

Sure, they'd be easy to miss at night from a distant window, especially when you had no reason to believe otherwise, hindsight being 20/20 and all that. What's your point?

Boojum2k: Moseley got to attack her twice with no one helping her.

You keep making these kind of emotionally charged posts as though the few bystanders who realized what was happening were all appalling people for not risking their own lives fighting an armed psycho and instead called the cops like normal people. Real life isn't a movie, you get that right?

No, it's not a movie. She was really attacked, twice, she really didnt get any help until after both attacks, and she really died. And people really stood by and did nothing.
Are you saying that's what you would do? Because it sounds like you don't really consider it real, that there is nothing wrong with ignoring a woman being stabbed, raped, and murdered.
I don't carry a gun, I don't have any fancy martial arts training, and I'm no badass, but I wouldn't stand by while a woman was repeatedly attacked and make up stories after the fact that I somehow saw something else that wasn't there. Is that what you would do? The witnesses aren't being unfairly treated, they didnt help. Apart from one guy, they didnt call the cops either.


You sound like to need to move to the city and fight some crime.
 
2014-03-12 08:55:30 AM
FTA:  "Genovese screamed"

Actually, that's not entirely clear.  Last in-depth report I saw indicated she'd been stabbed in both lungs, which means she might not have been able to scream.  (New Yorker article from a few years back, they've got a pretty good track record with facts).
 
2014-03-12 09:03:37 AM

Gunther: calbert: Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

It wasn't only about slavery, but slavery was by far the most important issue. People who deny that aren't heroically striking down widely held falsehoods, they're historical revisionists.


I think the place that idea comes from, is that Lincoln didn't mobilize the union army in order to free slaves. He did it to keep the union together. Which is a form of "it's wasn't about slavery." The south broke away because they thought Lincoln was going to free all the slaves. From their point of view, it was about slavery and nothing else.

So, in one sense, it was all about slaves. In another, it was about states not being able to leave the union. It's less revisionism and more trying to simplify the problem down to one stupidly myopic cause. Of course, there are a lot of dumbfarks down here that still say it isn't racism or sedition to fly the confederate flag and call for the south to rise again. The scary thing, is it's not all uneducated hillbillies. Just mostly.

/need more coffee
 
2014-03-12 09:07:07 AM

kitsuneymg: Gunther: calbert: Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

It wasn't only about slavery, but slavery was by far the most important issue. People who deny that aren't heroically striking down widely held falsehoods, they're historical revisionists.

I think the place that idea comes from, is that Lincoln didn't mobilize the union army in order to free slaves. He did it to keep the union together. Which is a form of "it's wasn't about slavery." The south broke away because they thought Lincoln was going to free all the slaves. From their point of view, it was about slavery and nothing else.

So, in one sense, it was all about slaves. In another, it was about states not being able to leave the union. It's less revisionism and more trying to simplify the problem down to one stupidly myopic cause. Of course, there are a lot of dumbfarks down here that still say it isn't racism or sedition to fly the confederate flag and call for the south to rise again. The scary thing, is it's not all uneducated hillbillies. Just mostly.

/need more coffee


People will claim the South was just protecting their economic system and culture, which was based on slavery but somehow there are historians who have figured out how to separate slavery from the argument.  At least in my experience.
 
2014-03-12 09:27:58 AM
A ton?  So... there's like... 5 Farkers?
 
2014-03-12 09:34:27 AM
"An SEP is something that we can't see, or don't see, or our brain doesn't let us see, because we think that it's somebody else's problem. That's what SEP means. Somebody Else's Problem. The brain just edits it out, it's like a blind spot. If you look at it directly you won't see it unless you know precisely what it is. Your only hope is to catch it by surprise out of the corner of your eye."
 
2014-03-12 09:42:54 AM
Her killer, Winston Moseley, is still alive and recently applied for parole....he was denied.

Few people know that Moseley escaped from custody after being convicted of the Genovese killing and raped another woman before he was recaptured.  While in prison in 1968  Moseley injured himself and was transported to a local hospital for surgery.  While being transported from the hospital back to prison, he jumped his guard and took away the guard's revolver.  Moseley then broke into a nearby home,  attacked and tied up the man he found in the house, and then proceeded to rape the man's wife in front of him.
 
2014-03-12 10:04:49 AM

RobSeace: "An SEP is something that we can't see, or don't see, or our brain doesn't let us see, because we think that it's somebody else's problem. That's what SEP means. Somebody Else's Problem. The brain just edits it out, it's like a blind spot. If you look at it directly you won't see it unless you know precisely what it is. Your only hope is to catch it by surprise out of the corner of your eye."


Unless I witnessed a small child being attacked, all I would do is call the police.   I own firearms, but unlike the wannabe Rambos on this board, I know better than to get in involved.  First off, the cops HATE AND DESPISE cop wannabes.    Secondly, you are opening yourself up to all kinds of liability.  Thirdly, if you are injured, you will be stuck with the medical bills and will likely end up on the street if you are injured so badly that you can no longer work.

I'll give you a recent example of how getting involved gets you farked.   A friend of mine lives in Pennsylvania.  The mother of all winters we are experiencing this year left the streets in his development badly iced.  My friend's house is located at the top of a very steep hill.   Recently a fire broke out at a house located at the bottom of hill.  When the fire truck showed up, my friend stopped the responding fire truck and warned them that the hill was iced covered and impassable, he advised them to go around the long way and avoid the hill.  My friend was promptly told to fark off.  As the truck started down the hill, it slid out of control and ended up in the woods.   Another truck needed to be called out, which took over an hour.  By that time the burning house was full engulfed.

The house that caught fire burned to the ground.  Fortunately the family that lived in the house all managed to get out, and there were no injuries.  The crew that was operating the fire truck that slid down the hill promptly pointed the finger at my friend and accused him of sending them down the hill.  Only after other people in the neighborhood stated that they witnessed my friend try and warn the fire crew about the icy hill was the accusation quietly dropped.

Moral of the story:  Good Samaritans are suckers.
 
2014-03-12 10:13:25 AM

fusillade762: Sgt Otter: Wasn't there a recent thread were an investigative journalist claims he has evidence that multiple residents tried to intervene, and there were dozens of calls to the police?  The police dispatcher and the watch captain screwed things up so badly that the cops didn't arrive until the next day.  The NYPD covered up their own incompetence by claiming the "heartless" residents never called them.

Yes. Yes there was.


W-Why am I not surprised about the complete incompetence of senior officials at the NYPD?!   Probably can't get away with that nowadays with smartphones able to record whatever a person wants.
 
2014-03-12 10:13:47 AM
My friend named is cat Kitty Genovese
 
2014-03-12 10:15:30 AM

Boojum2k: saintstryfe: Only one person saw the attacker with her, and he believed the confrontation ended. The attacker came back.

So nobody helped. That's pretty much the take-away on this. She was attacked, people knew she was being attacked, and she was left to die. That they weren't actually standing there watching the attack is cold comfort.


Uhhh...did you read the previous posts or are you just trolling?
 
2014-03-12 10:33:28 AM

Rwa2play: Boojum2k: saintstryfe: Only one person saw the attacker with her, and he believed the confrontation ended. The attacker came back.

So nobody helped. That's pretty much the take-away on this. She was attacked, people knew she was being attacked, and she was left to die. That they weren't actually standing there watching the attack is cold comfort.

Uhhh...did you read the previous posts or are you just trolling?


I read the article, and corrected myself when I read that yes, people actually watched her get attacked, and did nothing.
 
2014-03-12 10:36:29 AM

Gunther: once saw three men nearly beat a fourth to death outside the front of a library in broad daylight and it took maybe two minutes for the shock to wear off to the point where I could intervene (and even then, I wasn't the first person to).


Ah. That explains it. You're a coward, and therefore have to believe that everyone else is a coward or you'll think less of yourself.
I was wondering why you were fighting so hard to defend the indefensible.
 
2014-03-12 10:46:07 AM

Boojum2k: Gunther: once saw three men nearly beat a fourth to death outside the front of a library in broad daylight and it took maybe two minutes for the shock to wear off to the point where I could intervene (and even then, I wasn't the first person to).

Ah. That explains it. You're a coward, and therefore have to believe that everyone else is a coward or you'll think less of yourself.
I was wondering why you were fighting so hard to defend the indefensible.


So you live in the suburbs because it is safe and then call everyone who doesnt help someone in distress cowards for not intervening?  Is that how this is going?
 
2014-03-12 10:56:14 AM

Gunny Highway: Boojum2k: Gunther: once saw three men nearly beat a fourth to death outside the front of a library in broad daylight and it took maybe two minutes for the shock to wear off to the point where I could intervene (and even then, I wasn't the first person to).

Ah. That explains it. You're a coward, and therefore have to believe that everyone else is a coward or you'll think less of yourself.
I was wondering why you were fighting so hard to defend the indefensible.

So you live in the suburbs because it is safe and then call everyone who doesnt help someone in distress cowards for not intervening?  Is that how this is going?


I've lived all kinds of places. But yeah, if you watch someone being attacked, and either see something else happen that's not actually there, or make up such a story after the fact, you're pretty much a coward. She wasn't attacked by a mob of machete-wielding supernatural Jasons, it was one nut with a knife.
I mean, really? You're trying to defend "don't get involved?"
 
2014-03-12 10:58:47 AM

Boojum2k: Gunny Highway: Boojum2k: Gunther: once saw three men nearly beat a fourth to death outside the front of a library in broad daylight and it took maybe two minutes for the shock to wear off to the point where I could intervene (and even then, I wasn't the first person to).

Ah. That explains it. You're a coward, and therefore have to believe that everyone else is a coward or you'll think less of yourself.
I was wondering why you were fighting so hard to defend the indefensible.

So you live in the suburbs because it is safe and then call everyone who doesnt help someone in distress cowards for not intervening?  Is that how this is going?

I've lived all kinds of places. But yeah, if you watch someone being attacked, and either see something else happen that's not actually there, or make up such a story after the fact, you're pretty much a coward. She wasn't attacked by a mob of machete-wielding supernatural Jasons, it was one nut with a knife.
I mean, really? You're trying to defend "don't get involved?"


Have you ever had to jump into action for any reason?  In any of the many places you have lived?
 
2014-03-12 11:06:02 AM

Gunny Highway: Have you ever had to jump into action for any reason? In any of the many places you have lived?


A couple of times. Got my ass kicked hard for it once. Like I said, I don't carry, I have no martial arts training, I'm not a particularly tough guy. Still would rather help than not.
How about you? Ever just stood and watched, or walked away and ignored?
 
2014-03-12 11:07:29 AM

Fissile: Moral of the story: Good Samaritans are suckers.


They are.  They definitely are.  There is absolutely no social or material reward for being a good person in this country.

But when I see an emergency, I'm going to try to do the right thing.  I might get injured, or even killed.  At best I might get sued.  Maybe thrown in jail.  But I don't make decisions based on any of that shiat.  It really doesn't matter where they put me; whatever the fark this country does to punish me isn't going to worse than the guilt of standing by all over again.

Yeah, I'm a farking sucker, but I don't do what I do expecting a goddamn parade.

/ if you help someone, for the love of FSM, don't give anyone your name
// as soon as the first responders take over, walk away -- they won't ask questions
 
2014-03-12 11:09:11 AM

Boojum2k: Gunny Highway: Have you ever had to jump into action for any reason? In any of the many places you have lived?

A couple of times. Got my ass kicked hard for it once. Like I said, I don't carry, I have no martial arts training, I'm not a particularly tough guy. Still would rather help than not.
How about you? Ever just stood and watched, or walked away and ignored?


I have never been in a situation where it was called for and I dont know how I would respond.

Care to describe the situations you decided to step in on?  I just want to be able to understand what kind of hero you are.
 
2014-03-12 11:13:53 AM

Gunny Highway: Care to describe the situations you decided to step in on?


Nope. This isn't about me. This is about a bunch of cowards who left a woman to die, and a generation of later cowards who want to make that okay.
Helping someone in trouble doesn't make you a hero, it makes you a decent human being.
 
2014-03-12 11:17:30 AM

calbert: oh ffs..

this is one of those myths that just needs to be put to death.

Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

f*cking sheeple.


You are correct on all but one. Guess which? Go on, guess.
 
2014-03-12 11:17:58 AM

Boojum2k: Gunny Highway: Care to describe the situations you decided to step in on?

Nope. This isn't about me. This is about a bunch of cowards who left a woman to die, and a generation of later cowards who want to make that okay.
Helping someone in trouble doesn't make you a hero, it makes you a decent human being.


Ohhhh, okay.
 
2014-03-12 11:18:53 AM
new york
you sucked then and yer 50 years of accumulated feces since.
enjoy
 
2014-03-12 11:29:01 AM

Boojum2k: Rwa2play: Boojum2k: saintstryfe: Only one person saw the attacker with her, and he believed the confrontation ended. The attacker came back.

So nobody helped. That's pretty much the take-away on this. She was attacked, people knew she was being attacked, and she was left to die. That they weren't actually standing there watching the attack is cold comfort.

Uhhh...did you read the previous posts or are you just trolling?

I read the article, and corrected myself when I read that yes, people actually watched her get attacked, and did nothing.


I see reading comprehension's not your strong suit.
 
2014-03-12 11:32:08 AM

Rwa2play: I see reading comprehension's not your strong suit.


Better than yours. Or are you claiming that no one did see her, despite the article stating that up to a dozen did?
 
2014-03-12 12:45:21 PM

Boojum2k: Rwa2play: I see reading comprehension's not your strong suit.

Better than yours. Or are you claiming that no one did see her, despite the article stating that up to a dozen did?


Evasion noted.
 
2014-03-12 12:54:03 PM

Boojum2k: Helping someone in trouble doesn't make you a hero, it makes you a decent human being.


And not helping someone in trouble doesn't make you a coward or a monster.  At least not automatically.

Take a goddamn Intro To Psychology class, man.
 
2014-03-12 01:03:05 PM

Rwa2play: Boojum2k: Rwa2play: I see reading comprehension's not your strong suit.

Better than yours. Or are you claiming that no one did see her, despite the article stating that up to a dozen did?

Evasion noted.


Right. Look, I'll leave you to talk to yourself and think you're being clever.
 
2014-03-12 01:05:14 PM

poot_rootbeer: And not helping someone in trouble doesn't make you a coward or a monster. At least not automatically.


This wasn't automatic, this was them cowardly watching or listening to a woman in need of help, who was stabbed, raped, and murdered.
 
2014-03-12 01:32:43 PM
Had to RTFA to find out who she was. So guessing I'm not all fascinated in something that happened before I was borne.
 
2014-03-12 01:50:33 PM

Boojum2k: Rwa2play: Boojum2k: Rwa2play: I see reading comprehension's not your strong suit.

Better than yours. Or are you claiming that no one did see her, despite the article stating that up to a dozen did?

Evasion noted.

Right. Look, I'll leave you to talk to yourself and think you're being clever.


Says the one who clearly didn't see the posts previous to mine.  There's clever and then there's outright ignorant; guess where you fall.
 
2014-03-12 01:59:15 PM

Rwa2play: There's clever and then there's outright ignorant; guess where you fall.


More to the former, although going for "accurate" rather than clever, whereas you are consistently to the latter.
Seriously, dude, you've drooled out one random cophate comment which given any consideration makes my point that no one really helped her even stronger, then started frothing about trolling, and just kept jerking it without having any point whatsoever.
I shouldn't have even bothered responding to you this time, you're only going to come back with more of your crazed wino rambling without any kind of sane point again.
 
2014-03-12 02:19:28 PM

Boojum2k: This wasn't automatic, this was them cowardly watching or listening to a woman in need of help, who was stabbed, raped, and murdered.


I give up.  If you're not going to let go of the fictional accounting of the attack -- where 40 spectators (the "38" commonly cited, plus an usher and a guy with a John 3:16 sign) peered through opera glasses as a woman was obviously being assaulted on the well-lit stage below, laughing and eating popcorn the whole time -- then there is no common ground for discussion here.
 
2014-03-12 02:25:07 PM

poot_rootbeer: If you're not going to let go of the fictional accounting of the attack


Oh hey, look who really can't read (that would be you, since if it's not clear you won't understand). I quoted the article earlier on, about a dozen people saw her and did nothing, even more heard her and did nothing. That it wasn't 38 people doesn't make the inaction of those who did witness the attack any less despicable.
 
2014-03-12 02:44:19 PM

Boojum2k: Rwa2play: There's clever and then there's outright ignorant; guess where you fall.

More to the former,


...aaaaaaaaaaaaand now I know you're a troll

although going for "accurate" rather than clever,

Yet you fail at both regardless.

whereas you are consistently to the latter.

Projection noted.

Seriously, dude, you've drooled out one random cophate comment which given any considerationmakes my point that no one really helped her even stronger,

LOLWUT?

 then started frothing about trolling, and just kept jerking it without having any point whatsoever.

Kinda sucks when someone clearly calls out your trolling doesn't it?

I shouldn't have even bothered responding to you this time, you're only going to come back with more of your crazed wino rambling without any kind of sane point again.

Evasion noted; now go back and keep eating the sand junior.  Grownfolk are talking here.
 
2014-03-12 02:45:13 PM

Rwa2play: Grownfolk are talking here.


Right. Like I said, babbling wino.

Buh-bye.
 
2014-03-12 02:48:07 PM

Rwa2play: Evasion noted; now go back and keep eating the sand junior. Grownfolk are talking here.


Don't talk to the hero that way.
 
2014-03-12 03:45:03 PM

Boojum2k: poot_rootbeer: And not helping someone in trouble doesn't make you a coward or a monster. At least not automatically.

This wasn't automatic, this was them cowardly watching or listening to a woman in need of help, who was stabbed, raped, and murdered.


MUCH better article here:  (looks like I was wrong on the lung wounds, though)

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2014/03/10/140310crbo_bo ok s_lemann?currentPage=all
 
2014-03-12 03:57:55 PM

PunGent: MUCH better article here


Better, but includes much of the same details, and brushes off the people mentioned elsewhere that saw the first attack and did nothing (rough count was a dozen witnesses, New Yorker calls them "a handful"). Ross comes off a little worse, actually.
So yes, multiple people actually did ignore her while she was being attacked. It certainly wasn't "30-40" people, but three people did something, and all except Sophia Farrar did as little as humanly possible.
 
2014-03-12 07:02:28 PM

Boojum2k: Gunther: once saw three men nearly beat a fourth to death outside the front of a library in broad daylight and it took maybe two minutes for the shock to wear off to the point where I could intervene (and even then, I wasn't the first person to).

Ah. That explains it. You're a coward, and therefore have to believe that everyone else is a coward or you'll think less of yourself.
I was wondering why you were fighting so hard to defend the indefensible.


Wow, seriously? That's what you took from that anecdote? I'm a coward for not trying to fight three huge men at once, and I'm only arguing with you out of disbelief that anyone could be as heroic as you?  Jesus, you really think if you ever saw a crime you'd react to it like the protagonist of an action movie, don't you?

I bet the closest you've come to a life-or-death situation in your entire life is that time you bit into an over-cooked Hot Pocket.
 
2014-03-12 07:16:06 PM

Gunther: Boojum2k: Gunther: once saw three men nearly beat a fourth to death outside the front of a library in broad daylight and it took maybe two minutes for the shock to wear off to the point where I could intervene (and even then, I wasn't the first person to).

Ah. That explains it. You're a coward, and therefore have to believe that everyone else is a coward or you'll think less of yourself.
I was wondering why you were fighting so hard to defend the indefensible.

Wow, seriously? That's what you took from that anecdote? I'm a coward for not trying to fight three huge men at once, and I'm only arguing with you out of disbelief that anyone could be as heroic as you?  Jesus, you really think if you ever saw a crime you'd react to it like the protagonist of an action movie, don't you?

I bet the closest you've come to a life-or-death situation in your entire life is that time you bit into an over-cooked Hot Pocket.


You'd lose, but as I noted, this isn't about me. And the only reason I felt it appropriate to judge your character was instead of considering the actual facts presented, you were judging mine and continue to do so.

Don't like the heat? GTFO, Brave Sir Robin.
 
2014-03-12 07:31:07 PM
...relevant to my interests
 
2014-03-12 09:49:17 PM
I've always had the Crusader Rabbit Complex. If I hear something, I investigate. If I see something, I intervene. It will probably get me killed someday. But fifty years of reading comic books, and a dad who taught me well, has made me a man who can't stand by when bad stuff is going down.

I'm old, but not frail. I'm also a really big dude. That helps. I can usually chill a situation by just throwing THE VOICE OF GOD. I once actually made a big, tough guy fall over backwards just by yelling at him.

To me, my neighborhood is Gotham City and I am the goddam Batman. If you start trouble here, I'm going to get involved.

About a year ago, I heard a woman screaming outside. I grabbed my aluminum baseball bat and ran outside. I saw her on top of her car screaming while a pit bull was snarling and leaping at her. I yelled, and the dog turned and ran at me with death as his intent. No barking. No growling. Just teeth and murder. I swung away. I killed him. He deserved it.

It was only when the adrenaline wore off that I realized I was naked.
 
2014-03-12 10:17:55 PM

Boojum2k: Don't like the heat? GTFO, Brave Sir Robin.


This coming from someone that thinks he's Superman.
 
2014-03-13 07:32:27 AM

Solid Muldoon: About a year ago, I heard a woman screaming outside. I grabbed my aluminum baseball bat and ran outside. I saw her on top of her car screaming while a pit bull was snarling and leaping at her. I yelled, and the dog turned and ran at me with death as his intent. No barking. No growling. Just teeth and murder. I swung away. I killed him. He deserved it.


Why didn't you just choke it out? Another farker from the "cat terrorizes family" thread assures us it's easy to do!
 
2014-03-13 07:35:18 AM

Boojum2k: PunGent: MUCH better article here

Better, but includes much of the same details, and brushes off the people mentioned elsewhere that saw the first attack and did nothing (rough count was a dozen witnesses, New Yorker calls them "a handful"). Ross comes off a little worse, actually.
So yes, multiple people actually did ignore her while she was being attacked. It certainly wasn't "30-40" people, but three people did something, and all except Sophia Farrar did as little as humanly possible.


I'm not sure where you're getting your "dozen witnesses"...

From the New Yorker:  "Moseley's prosecutors concluded that there were only five or six witnesses who could plausibly testify at the trial."  Which sounds like "a handful"... and some of those could presumably only testify to hearing/seeing the ambulance siren/lights.

For me, the takeaway is "horrible crime, but not as bad as the initial media reports."
 
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