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(Heartland Connection)   Cult town in Southeast Iowa in danger of going full Waco   (heartlandconnection.com ) divider line
    More: Scary, Waco, Jefferson County Sheriff's Office, Iowa Department of Transportation, Iowa Department of Natural Resources, unrest  
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16297 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Mar 2014 at 4:51 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



253 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-03-11 04:33:52 PM  
Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.
 
jbc [TotalFark]
2014-03-11 04:41:54 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.


Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?
 
2014-03-11 04:51:58 PM  
Sounds more akin to Rajneeshpuram than Waco, but the whole Rajneeshpuram thing didn't end well for anyone.
 
2014-03-11 04:55:25 PM  
Dafarqs a pandit?
 
2014-03-11 04:55:44 PM  
Iowa pandits are the worst
 
2014-03-11 04:56:48 PM  

vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?


a Hindu scholar learned in Sanskrit and Hindu philosophy and religion, typically also a practicing priest.

Oh a hairy krishna type?
 
2014-03-11 04:56:51 PM  
i235.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-11 04:57:26 PM  

vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?


A kind of bear that drives an old Trans Am.
 
2014-03-11 04:57:33 PM  

vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?


Hindu Teacher

/Had to look it up
//Modern Christian Cults hide in plain sight.
 
2014-03-11 04:57:40 PM  

vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?


I was wondering too, and the Google machine led me to the Wiki fount of all knowledge:

"A  pandit or  pundit (paṇḍita) is a scholar and a teacher, particularly one skilled in the Sanskrit language, who has mastered the four is derived from it but has been used to broadly refer to any of the following:
In the original usage of the word, "Pandit", synonymous to "Purohits", refers to a
The designation may also appear as the abbreviation "Pt." or "Pnt."

Robed guru type Hindu guy - aren't they supposed to be all peace-loving and shiat?
 
2014-03-11 04:58:12 PM  

jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?


The United States is run by criminals and kooks.
 
2014-03-11 04:58:21 PM  
Another Tea Party rally?
 
2014-03-11 04:59:02 PM  

mr_fulano: vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?

I was wondering too, and the Google machine led me to the Wiki fount of all knowledge:

"A  pandit or  pundit (paṇḍita) is a scholar and a teacher, particularly one skilled in the Sanskrit language, who has mastered the four is derived from it but has been used to broadly refer to any of the following:
In the original usage of the word, "Pandit", synonymous to "Purohits", refers to a
The designation may also appear as the abbreviation "Pt." or "Pnt."

Robed guru type Hindu guy - aren't they supposed to be all peace-loving and shiat?



Yeah, well, bubba rum raisin can go all frito pandito and it's not going to impress me. Either do some good or stop throwing rocks.
 
2014-03-11 04:59:09 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: Sounds more akin to Rajneeshpuram than Waco, but the whole Rajneeshpuram thing didn't end well for anyone.


That's kind of what I was thinking too. That was an epic fustercluck if there ever was one.

A quick Google Maps search indicates that "Maharishi Vedic City, IA 52556" is a thing. In Iowa? WTF?
 
2014-03-11 04:59:28 PM  
So a bunch of crazy people might end up dying in a fiery inferno?

community.us.playstation.com
 
2014-03-11 05:00:40 PM  
www.cultureblues.com

SCRIPTURE!!!
 
2014-03-11 05:02:43 PM  

Fano: [i235.photobucket.com image 850x531]


Someone needs to do a "Children of the Corn" filk based on Billy Thorp's "Children of the Sun."
 
2014-03-11 05:02:48 PM  

Fubegra: Bathia_Mapes: Sounds more akin to Rajneeshpuram than Waco, but the whole Rajneeshpuram thing didn't end well for anyone.

That's kind of what I was thinking too. That was an epic fustercluck if there ever was one.

A quick Google Maps search indicates that "Maharishi Vedic City, IA 52556" is a thing. In Iowa? WTF?


I know, right?

And Rajneeshpuram was indeed an epic clusterfark, right down to infecting several restaurant salad bars in The Dalles with salmonella in the hopes of preventing people from voting in an upcoming election.
 
2014-03-11 05:03:09 PM  

jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?


Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.
 
2014-03-11 05:03:36 PM  

mr_fulano: vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?

I was wondering too, and the Google machine led me to the Wiki fount of all knowledge:

"A  pandit or  pundit (paṇḍita) is a scholar and a teacher, particularly one skilled in the Sanskrit language, who has mastered the four is derived from it but has been used to broadly refer to any of the following:
In the original usage of the word, "Pandit", synonymous to "Purohits", refers to a
The designation may also appear as the abbreviation "Pt." or "Pnt."

Robed guru type Hindu guy - aren't they supposed to be all peace-loving and shiat?


I just hate when an article like this uses local jargon withno attempt to explain it.
 
2014-03-11 05:04:41 PM  
Boy, I hope they don't know Kung Fu...

4.bp.blogspot.com

/Sorry, couldn't resist
 
2014-03-11 05:04:54 PM  
How many of David Koresh's followers can fit in a convertible?

Two in the front, two in the back, and 72 in the ash tray.

/loved that joke as a third grader.
 
2014-03-11 05:05:58 PM  
So why exactly were the police escorting one of the leaders away? That article reads like a 7th grade term paper.
 
2014-03-11 05:06:18 PM  

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.


We're on the Internet! Black or white, there is no Micheal Jackson.

Did the Branch Davidians over react? Yeah. Did Reno? Oh hell yeah. What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?
 
2014-03-11 05:07:01 PM  

jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?


They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.
 
2014-03-11 05:07:17 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?

A kind of bear that drives an old Trans Am.


... but that's not important right now.
 
2014-03-11 05:07:35 PM  
What A Cook Out!
 
2014-03-11 05:08:25 PM  

lenfromak: mr_fulano: vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?

I was wondering too, and the Google machine led me to the Wiki fount of all knowledge:

"A  pandit or  pundit (paṇḍita) is a scholar and a teacher, particularly one skilled in the Sanskrit language, who has mastered the four is derived from it but has been used to broadly refer to any of the following:
In the original usage of the word, "Pandit", synonymous to "Purohits", refers to a
The designation may also appear as the abbreviation "Pt." or "Pnt."

Robed guru type Hindu guy - aren't they supposed to be all peace-loving and shiat?

I just hate when an article like this uses local jargon withno attempt to explain it.


Someone should pandy them.
 
2014-03-11 05:08:28 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: Sounds more akin to Rajneeshpuram than Waco, but the whole Rajneeshpuram thing didn't end well for anyone.


http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Guru-Strange-Journey-Rajneesh/dp/0828906 3 00 Link

Pulled this off the shelf of a rented cabin in Central Oregon and couldn't put it down. I'm amazed folks still follow this guy after what was so clearly exposed.
 
2014-03-11 05:08:33 PM  
People actually think the govt was justified in Waco? WTF
 
2014-03-11 05:08:44 PM  

doubled99: Iowa pandits are the worst


I hate Iowa pandits!
s27.postimg.org
 
2014-03-11 05:08:49 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Did the Branch Davidians over react? Yeah. Did Reno? Oh hell yeah. What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?


The tanks were there due to Ruby Ridge and that cluster f---
 
2014-03-11 05:09:16 PM  

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.


THIS
 
2014-03-11 05:10:09 PM  
They are going to be murdered by the federal government?

/reads article

Nope, a large group of people decided to go for a protest march after one of their members was arrested and the authorities tried to prevent them from marching, inciting violence until the people were successfully prevented from exercising their rights and were confined to their property.

Am I reading this correctly? And what the hell is a pandit?
 
2014-03-11 05:10:48 PM  
The Stealth Hippopotamus:  What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?

Sending a message to the American people, of what might happen if they ever got certain dangerous ideas in their heads.  You know, things like liberty, freedom, limited government, and other such things that are so very inconvenient to the rulers.
 
2014-03-11 05:11:14 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.


I can believe that someone in Washington would order the compound taken. I can believe that mistakes were made in the taking of that compound. But I just can't believe that the ATF on the ground would have gone for that.

so

img35.imageshack.us
 
2014-03-11 05:12:56 PM  

ElLoco: StoPPeRmobile: vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?

A kind of bear that drives an old Trans Am.

... but that's not important right now.


Apparently it's already been done!

Smokey and the Pandit:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/joepyrek/1338996709/
 
2014-03-11 05:13:07 PM  
Zooming in on Vedic City in with satellite view shows all sorts of weirdness. In the northwest corner of the town, there's an area that looks an awful lot like military barracks (or a concentration camp).

Then there's a giant mandala on the east side.
 
2014-03-11 05:13:53 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.


I was under the impression the the Branch was given ample time to vacate.
come out with your hands up, let the women & children go.

I think the blame falls on those that put women & children on the line of fire.
 
2014-03-11 05:14:28 PM  
VEDIC CITY, IOWA --
The Jefferson County Sheriff's Office was contacted...

i1214.photobucket.com
"Problem?"


/It took this long?  Really?
//Yeah, yeah, I know
 
2014-03-11 05:15:26 PM  
Or full WACKO, amirite?
 
2014-03-11 05:17:09 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.


Score!
 
2014-03-11 05:17:16 PM  
I grew up about an hour from Fairfield, (kick, replies) and even lived there for a couple of years later on as an adult. Lots of woo up there, what with Maharishi International University and all...of all the things I would think might happen there, some sort of guru uprising would have been the last.

Granola shortage causing panic in the streets, maybe.
 
2014-03-11 05:17:29 PM  
For anyone wondering what a "Pandit" is -   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDOl8sJmCco     .

/5 miles from this place.
 
2014-03-11 05:17:54 PM  
CSB.  Before it went all Majarishi crazy, my dad went to school there when it was known as Parsons College.  The school went broke later and was bought by the Majarishi so that people could meditate and learn to levitate.
 
2014-03-11 05:18:30 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

I can believe that someone in Washington would order the compound taken. I can believe that mistakes were made in the taking of that compound. But I just can't believe that the ATF on the ground would have gone for that.

so

[img35.imageshack.us image 350x263]


That's fine, but you have to deny what your own eyes saw to come to any conclusion that differs from what I wrote.
 
2014-03-11 05:20:22 PM  
Southeast Iowa

Well that's trouble my friends.  With a capital T, and that rhymes with P and that stands for pandit.

www.videoworthy.org
 
2014-03-11 05:20:26 PM  

Fubegra: Zooming in on Vedic City in with satellite view shows all sorts of weirdness. In the northwest corner of the town, there's an area that looks an awful lot like military barracks (or a concentration camp).


Reminds me of something far worse than a barracks area.
img.fark.net
 
2014-03-11 05:20:59 PM  

vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?


Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who read the entire article hoping for an explanation or even a context clue as to WTF a pandit is.

img.fark.net
 
2014-03-11 05:22:20 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

I can believe that someone in Washington would order the compound taken. I can believe that mistakes were made in the taking of that compound. But I just can't believe that the ATF on the ground would have gone for that.


Federal agencies are far more concerned about looking weak on TV than how many civilians they burn.  No federal agency ever has shown evidence to the contrary.  If you have any examples of a federal agency acting like a human being, I'm all ears.
 
2014-03-11 05:24:48 PM  

Fubegra: Zooming in on Vedic City in with satellite view shows all sorts of weirdness. In the northwest corner of the town, there's an area that looks an awful lot like military barracks (or a concentration camp).

Then there's a giant mandala on the east side.


If you look at it in map view, the barracks is the Maharishi Vedic Pandit Campus.
 
2014-03-11 05:25:18 PM  

jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?


I thought the criminals and kooks were the united states.
 
2014-03-11 05:27:09 PM  
Watch "Waco: Rules of Engagement".
 
2014-03-11 05:27:12 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: VEDIC CITY, IOWA --
The Jefferson County Sheriff's Office was contacted...

[i1214.photobucket.com image 240x320]
"Problem?"


/It took this long?  Really?
//Yeah, yeah, I know


I love you a little bit right now.
 
2014-03-11 05:30:23 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: Fubegra: Bathia_Mapes: Sounds more akin to Rajneeshpuram than Waco, but the whole Rajneeshpuram thing didn't end well for anyone.

That's kind of what I was thinking too. That was an epic fustercluck if there ever was one.

A quick Google Maps search indicates that "Maharishi Vedic City, IA 52556" is a thing. In Iowa? WTF?

I know, right?

And Rajneeshpuram was indeed an epic clusterfark, right down to infecting several restaurant salad bars in The Dalles with salmonella in the hopes of preventing people from voting in an upcoming election.


Don't forgot the Rolls Royce hotness!
 
2014-03-11 05:30:36 PM  
Is it 1998 again?
 
2014-03-11 05:30:53 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.

We're on the Internet! Black or white, there is no Micheal Jackson.

Did the Branch Davidians over react? Yeah. Did Reno? Oh hell yeah. What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?


The tanks in Waco were commandeered from civilians.

In Texas you have the right to bare heavy artillery. Anyone who is anyone has their own private SAM station.
 
2014-03-11 05:31:41 PM  

htomc: The Stealth Hippopotamus:  What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?

Sending a message to the American people, of what might happen if they ever got certain dangerous ideas in their heads.  You know, things like liberty, freedom, limited government, and other such things that are so very inconvenient to the rulers.

img.fark.net
So by liberty, freedom, and limited government you mean stockpiling weapons and pumping out Tater Jrs for a creepy guy who claims he's Jesus? Or do you mean being the creepy guy who claims he's Jesus?
/What's that? Oh no, it's the black helicopters coming to put you in a FEMA camp next to the NAFTA superhighway!
 
2014-03-11 05:32:50 PM  
Shouldn't "Pandit" be capitalized? I have no idea what they're all about, but I think it's a proper noun, no?
 
2014-03-11 05:32:59 PM  

Evil Mackerel: Benevolent Misanthrope: VEDIC CITY, IOWA --
The Jefferson County Sheriff's Office was contacted...

[i1214.photobucket.com image 240x320]
"Problem?"

/It took this long?  Really?
//Yeah, yeah, I know

I love you a little bit right now.


Well, I should have known someone would beat me to the DS9 ref, but here's mine anyway.

GIS for "vedek pants"

www.yourprops.com
 
2014-03-11 05:36:40 PM  

what_now: Shouldn't "Pandit" be capitalized? I have no idea what they're all about, but I think it's a proper noun, no?


No.  "pandit" really just means "scholar", specifically an authority on Vedic scripture.
 
2014-03-11 05:38:50 PM  
Nothing a mass deportation wouldn't fix.
 
2014-03-11 05:40:53 PM  
Smokey and the Pandit.
 
2014-03-11 05:42:55 PM  
having lived in iowa city, i have had occasion to interact with many a fairfielder. usually they're from california or new york and have relocated to be close to Maharishi. this means that they're typically very wealthy and possess the thousand-yard stare of a zealot.

i worked in a retail store in IC and once had a "floater," as we called them, return a baseball cap because it "interfered with [his] aura."

/CSB
 
2014-03-11 05:43:17 PM  
I think it's going to take more than rocks and debris being thrown about to make another Waco.....
 
2014-03-11 05:44:03 PM  
i must add that i think that meditation, transcendental or otherwise, is probably a very good thing for the body and mind. it's just that those who gravitated to fairfield seemed to be the ones who were waaay over the top into it.
 
2014-03-11 05:44:22 PM  



            CRIMEA RIVER            ¡

 
2014-03-11 05:44:51 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org
What a Pandit looks like.
 
2014-03-11 05:47:59 PM  
We've got something similar here, just a few miles east of town way out in the countryside: ISCKON (i.e. the Hare Krishnas) New Talavan Farm.

www.newtalavana.org

I've seen this view of them many times from my balloon.  Bless 'em, they've let me land on their property more times than I can count.  Once a friend landed there around sunset and the HK's all lined up on the road like signposts to help guide us in to where he'd landed. Their cattle are all over the place and I try to avoid them, but all of 'em, cattle and people alike, are mighty placid.

www.newtalavana.org
 
2014-03-11 05:51:31 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?


It's called force protection.  See if the opposing force makes it clear they have you outgunned (shooting through the roof of a building and punching right on through the Kevlar body armor) you get something they are unlikely to shoot through.  An APC like a M113 is possibly breach able.  The Governor can call up guard engineer units and get M60 engineer tanks and M88's (just because they came from Ft. Hood does not mean they are Active duty).

But here is the point everyone seems to forget.  If they wanted it ended fast with no chance of risk to anyone not a Branch Davidian , they had a couple of options to end it really f'ing fast with little or no fire.

A) the compound was not that big, line up the tanks in a line in the front of the compound and have tank races to the rear.

B) The M728 (M60 engineer tank) has a 165mm main gun specifically designed for breaching.  They could have fired in, blew the piss out of the building, killed most of the defenders and stunned the rest.

That raid was a first class fustercluck, but the Branch Davidians set that up to go like that from the start.  The fire is clearly accelerant fueled, because one of the first rules of fortress tactics is that if it is flamey and not essential to battle it is stored the hell away from the fight.  They intended to die.  Th followed a very familiar model/path.

/oh crap did I just comment in what was becoming a waco thread...
 
2014-03-11 05:52:16 PM  
vedic city

huh
 
2014-03-11 05:52:51 PM  
These guys are allowed to come here and live in a compound in-order to get paid $200 a month to chant?

Translation, these guys are brought here to do menial labor / manufactoring / assembly / agriculture of some sort and are paid a pittance.

And we expect these guys not to bust out of there at some point and move about the country?
 
2014-03-11 05:53:30 PM  
Huh! And all this time I thought that "pandit" was just a contraction for "pants-bandit." The more you know!
 
2014-03-11 05:55:58 PM  
MBooda:

img.fark.net

Bottom left, Jesse Pinkman sighting!
 
2014-03-11 06:02:18 PM  

caddisfly: Bathia_Mapes: Sounds more akin to Rajneeshpuram than Waco, but the whole Rajneeshpuram thing didn't end well for anyone.

http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Guru-Strange-Journey-Rajneesh/dp/0828906 3 00 Link

Pulled this off the shelf of a rented cabin in Central Oregon and couldn't put it down. I'm amazed folks still follow this guy after what was so clearly exposed.


Thanks!

Sounds like an interesting read. In fact I just checked & my local library has a copy.
 
2014-03-11 06:03:01 PM  

mr_fulano: vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?

I was wondering too, and the Google machine led me to the Wiki fount of all knowledge:

"A  pandit or  pundit (paṇḍita) is a scholar and a teacher, particularly one skilled in the Sanskrit language, who has mastered the four is derived from it but has been used to broadly refer to any of the following:
In the original usage of the word, "Pandit", synonymous to "Purohits", refers to a
The designation may also appear as the abbreviation "Pt." or "Pnt."

Robed guru type Hindu guy - aren't they supposed to be all peace-loving and shiat?


Only in the same way that all priests are supposed to be.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India

Fun fact, our term pundit comes from pandit.
 
2014-03-11 06:04:03 PM  

fst_creeper: Fubegra: Zooming in on Vedic City in with satellite view shows all sorts of weirdness. In the northwest corner of the town, there's an area that looks an awful lot like military barracks (or a concentration camp).

Reminds me of something far worse than a barracks area.
[img.fark.net image 640x426]


Good thing it doesn't look anything like Jonestown. Anything.
 
2014-03-11 06:07:31 PM  

fst_creeper: The Stealth Hippopotamus: What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?

It's called force protection.  See if the opposing force makes it clear they have you outgunned (shooting through the roof of a building and punching right on through the Kevlar body armor) you get something they are unlikely to shoot through.  An APC like a M113 is possibly breach able.  The Governor can call up guard engineer units and get M60 engineer tanks and M88's (just because they came from Ft. Hood does not mean they are Active duty).

But here is the point everyone seems to forget.  If they wanted it ended fast with no chance of risk to anyone not a Branch Davidian , they had a couple of options to end it really f'ing fast with little or no fire.

A) the compound was not that big, line up the tanks in a line in the front of the compound and have tank races to the rear.

B) The M728 (M60 engineer tank) has a 165mm main gun specifically designed for breaching.  They could have fired in, blew the piss out of the building, killed most of the defenders and stunned the rest.

That raid was a first class fustercluck, but the Branch Davidians set that up to go like that from the start.  The fire is clearly accelerant fueled, because one of the first rules of fortress tactics is that if it is flamey and not essential to battle it is stored the hell away from the fight.  They intended to die.  Th followed a very familiar model/path.

/oh crap did I just comment in what was becoming a waco thread...


My question: why didn't they wait them out? Cordon off and wait?
 
2014-03-11 06:08:11 PM  

MBooda: We've got something similar here, just a few miles east of town way out in the countryside: ISCKON (i.e. the Hare Krishnas) New Talavan Farm.

[www.newtalavana.org image 707x398]

I've seen this view of them many times from my balloon.  Bless 'em, they've let me land on their property more times than I can count.  Once a friend landed there around sunset and the HK's all lined up on the road like signposts to help guide us in to where he'd landed. Their cattle are all over the place and I try to avoid them, but all of 'em, cattle and people alike, are mighty placid.

[www.newtalavana.org image 640x480]


Krishnas are generally OK and they have great food.
 
2014-03-11 06:08:30 PM  
img2.imagesbn.com

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ml6wziyGGVkC&printsec=frontcover&so ur ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Related to the subject of cults but not this story in particular.  Fascinating book.  Worth checking out.
 
2014-03-11 06:09:10 PM  

Fano: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.

THIS


David Koresh went jogging every day (outside the compound, I believe) and the FBI could have picked him up then. Instead, they lay siege to the place, blast music and noise at the compound 24/7, then start a firefight. I believe it was a CS canister that started the fire.


/After that, they changed the FBI's Official Song to "We didn't start the fire..."
 
2014-03-11 06:11:54 PM  

Lee451: /After that, they changed the FBI's Official Song to "We didn't start the fire..."


What was it before that?
 
2014-03-11 06:15:22 PM  
Waco was an excellent example of the "don't start no shiat, won't be no shiat" policy. Protip: When law enforcement comes with a search warrant, and you decide to get all shooty about it, you don't really have any cause to gripe when they burn your farking house to the ground. The U.S. Government has nothing to apologize for. Fark those whackjob Davidians, and fark their apologists.
 
2014-03-11 06:15:49 PM  
TFA:
the project on Invincible America Drive


That is the most jingoistic street name I have seen. Does it intersect with Awesome American Patriot Avenue?
 
2014-03-11 06:17:17 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

I can believe that someone in Washington would order the compound taken. I can believe that mistakes were made in the taking of that compound. But I just can't believe that the ATF on the ground would have gone for that.

so


Lots of stuff has been done to disrupt groups before. Look at the whole Second Wounded Knee incident-- which was a response to the initial condition of death squads trained by the CIA to assasinate and terrorize the political opponents of the tribal chief. The documentary "Incident at Oglala" has interviews with retired LEOs who talked about what happened and why.

When the footsoldiers in the alphabet agencies are given orders they carry them out. They are always convinced it is "necessary" by those pulling the strings.
 
2014-03-11 06:18:06 PM  
UNAUTHORIZED FINGER:
They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military.


In the Core?
 
2014-03-11 06:19:20 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: caddisfly: Bathia_Mapes: Sounds more akin to Rajneeshpuram than Waco, but the whole Rajneeshpuram thing didn't end well for anyone.

http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Guru-Strange-Journey-Rajneesh/dp/0828906 3 00 Link

Pulled this off the shelf of a rented cabin in Central Oregon and couldn't put it down. I'm amazed folks still follow this guy after what was so clearly exposed.

Thanks!

Sounds like an interesting read. In fact I just checked & my local library has a copy.


I live in Central Oregon and actually have one of the old A-Frame cabins from the commune on my property.  We made it into a little guest house and we have old pictures of Rajneeshpuram hanging and some books about Osho for people to get freaked out by.
 
2014-03-11 06:21:42 PM  
My handle is doubly appropriate for this thread, and I'm really getting a kick out of these replies...
 
2014-03-11 06:22:19 PM  

Gunny Highway: Lee451: /After that, they changed the FBI's Official Song to "We didn't start the fire..."

What was it before that?


I Fought The Law.
 
2014-03-11 06:23:56 PM  

Richard C Stanford: Gunny Highway: Lee451: /After that, they changed the FBI's Official Song to "We didn't start the fire..."

What was it before that?

I Fought The Law.


I figured it would be Washington Bullets if it was a Clash song haha.
 
2014-03-11 06:24:25 PM  
farm8.staticflickr.com

Also

img.fark.net
 
2014-03-11 06:25:14 PM  
Here's a series of blog posts about this compound. Apparently it's indentured servitude. The "pandits" are poor Indians who are not allowed to leave the compound. They hired security to fetch people back who try to escape.
 
2014-03-11 06:26:12 PM  

Armand Tanzarian: Bathia_Mapes: caddisfly: Bathia_Mapes: Sounds more akin to Rajneeshpuram than Waco, but the whole Rajneeshpuram thing didn't end well for anyone.

http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Guru-Strange-Journey-Rajneesh/dp/0828906 3 00 Link

Pulled this off the shelf of a rented cabin in Central Oregon and couldn't put it down. I'm amazed folks still follow this guy after what was so clearly exposed.

Thanks!

Sounds like an interesting read. In fact I just checked & my local library has a copy.

I live in Central Oregon and actually have one of the old A-Frame cabins from the commune on my property.  We made it into a little guest house and we have old pictures of Rajneeshpuram hanging and some books about Osho for people to get freaked out by.


Heh! That's awesome
 
2014-03-11 06:26:15 PM  
Whoops, wrong thread.
 
2014-03-11 06:26:26 PM  

Oldiron_79: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

The United States is run by criminals and kooks.


No, it's run by criminals and people who get the big joke.
 
2014-03-11 06:26:33 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Waco was an excellent example of the "don't start no shiat, won't be no shiat" policy. Protip: When law enforcement comes with a search warrant, and you decide to get all shooty about it, you don't really have any cause to gripe when they burn your farking house to the ground. The U.S. Government has nothing to apologize for. Fark those whackjob Davidians, and fark their apologists.


And fark those dead kids.
 
2014-03-11 06:27:11 PM  

FlashHarry: having lived in iowa city, i have had occasion to interact with many a fairfielder. usually they're from california or new york and have relocated to be close to Maharishi. this means that they're typically very wealthy and possess the thousand-yard stare of a zealot.

i worked in a retail store in IC and once had a "floater," as we called them, return a baseball cap because it "interfered with [his] aura."

/CSB


This news story allowed me to finally piece together the story behind similar interactions I've had in Iowa City with the talk of a new age commune from India being set up in a bankrupt college south of there (and the reports back then of visitors from India being frightfully unprepared for a midwest winter clothing-wise). Looking more into the history behind this movement, it definitely appears to be in the same genus as Scientology, built on a clash of modern mass marketing and spirituality for fun and profit- even propagating through the help of celebrity endorsements. Though I can't say I see any of the same blood (or salmonella) on their hands as Scientology or Rajneeshpuram, it is still disappointing to see positive ideas and practices used so cynically to separate people from their money while maintaining a religious non-profit facade.
 
2014-03-11 06:28:01 PM  
Madison, who wanted to remain anonymous...

assets.gearlive.com
 
2014-03-11 06:30:20 PM  

Richard C Stanford: htomc: The Stealth Hippopotamus:  What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?

Sending a message to the American people, of what might happen if they ever got certain dangerous ideas in their heads.  You know, things like liberty, freedom, limited government, and other such things that are so very inconvenient to the rulers.
[img.fark.net image 474x300]
So by liberty, freedom, and limited government you mean stockpiling weapons and pumping out Tater Jrs for a creepy guy who claims he's Jesus? Or do you mean being the creepy guy who claims he's Jesus?
/What's that? Oh no, it's the black helicopters coming to put you in a FEMA camp next to the NAFTA superhighway!


Beat me to it...that guy is one of the worst trolls I have seen in Fark...and there are some REALLY bad trolls here...
 
2014-03-11 06:30:41 PM  
FTA: KTVO spoked to several Fairfield residents to gauge their opinion on the pandits and the incident that took place.
Is spoked really a word ? Maybe the past tense of spoke ?
 
2014-03-11 06:31:17 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Waco was an excellent example of the "don't start no shiat, won't be no shiat" policy. Protip: When law enforcement comes with a search warrant, and you decide to get all shooty about it, you don't really have any cause to gripe when they burn your farking house to the ground. The U.S. Government has nothing to apologize for. Fark those whackjob Davidians, and fark their apologists.


Randy Weaver says FU!

truthalliance.net
 
2014-03-11 06:31:31 PM  

Torchsong: [www.cultureblues.com image 490x276]

SCRIPTURE!!!


What a great movie!
 
2014-03-11 06:31:35 PM  

FormlessOne: And fark those dead kids.


And whose fault is it they're dead? Hint: It's not the government's. It's the fault of the mouth breathers who thought, "Hey, I've got a great idea! Let's shoot at those guys serving that search warrant. I bet they'll just go away and forget about us." Don't start shiat you don't want other people to finish.
 
2014-03-11 06:31:52 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.


As they say, napalm sticks to kids.
 
2014-03-11 06:33:13 PM  
There are some weird sumsanabishes around Fairfield.
 
2014-03-11 06:36:40 PM  

Gunny Highway: Lee451: /After that, they changed the FBI's Official Song to "We didn't start the fire..."

What was it before that?


The Roof is on Fire.
 
2014-03-11 06:43:00 PM  
Rodgers whatever his name is, reminds me of Billy Clyde Tuggle.
 
2014-03-11 06:43:36 PM  

Isitoveryet: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

I was under the impression the the Branch was given ample time to vacate.
come out with your hands up, let the women & children go.

I think the blame falls on those that put women & children on the line of fire.


It's worse than that. The Branch found out about the raid hours before it was scheduled to go off via a postal worker.

The Branch chose to hunker down, arm up and wait for intruders. To kill them.

They could have chosen many other options than to wait in ambush then murder law enforcement agents and in doing so aiding the killing of many innocent people.
 
2014-03-11 06:44:19 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: My question: why didn't they wait them out? Cordon off and wait?


apparently, costs.

Janet Reno claims that the daily costs were to high to wait the Davidians out.

but honestly, we don't simply sit there and wait for crazy people to come to their senses, we take the law breakers into custody.
 
2014-03-11 06:45:20 PM  

cig-mkr: FTA: KTVO spoked to several Fairfield residents to gauge their opinion on the pandits and the incident that took place.
Is spoked really a word ? Maybe the past tense of spoke ?


Yes, but only as an adjective describing tires.
 
2014-03-11 06:45:24 PM  
You mean when a Democrat president and his administration chose to raid vs. capture outside of the compound and killed innocent women and children?  Should we mention Elian Gonzalez or wait for another thread?
 
2014-03-11 06:48:05 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: It's worse than that. The Branch found out about the raid hours before it was scheduled to go off via a postal worker.

The Branch chose to hunker down, arm up and wait for intruders. To kill them.

They could have chosen many other options than to wait in ambush then murder law enforcement agents and in doing so aiding the killing of many innocent people.



weird isn't it? unless you want to use children as shields. which i believe he did.

Koresch was a delusional POS & it is my opinion that he was the main catalyst of the Waco incident and should be held accountable for every death that occurred on the property.
 
2014-03-11 06:49:45 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: My question: why didn't they wait them out? Cordon off and wait?


Like I said Fustercluck.  That said I think they thought that the Davidian were going to do something exactly like they did and were trying to go in first.  But on the hole, fustercluck.

And someone said something about getting Koresh on his run, Wacking a charismatic like that often sets off the followers before they collapse.
 
2014-03-11 06:49:47 PM  
They are paid $200 a month to chant and meditate, $150 of which is sent back to their families in India.

WTF visa program are they on? This is reported as fact with no explanation?

That's some fine reporting there, Lou. Who did you spoked to?
 
2014-03-11 06:50:02 PM  

Mean Daddy: You mean when a Democrat president and his administration chose to raid vs. capture outside of the compound and killed innocent women and children?  Should we mention Elian Gonzalez or wait for another thread?


Derp.
 
2014-03-11 06:51:33 PM  
Anyone know anything about this "cultural exchange" program? What's the government's rationale for approving these visas for people being paid $200/month to meditate as alleged in the barely comprehensible article?
 
2014-03-11 06:51:54 PM  

Isitoveryet: TheShavingofOccam123: It's worse than that. The Branch found out about the raid hours before it was scheduled to go off via a postal worker.

The Branch chose to hunker down, arm up and wait for intruders. To kill them.

They could have chosen many other options than to wait in ambush then murder law enforcement agents and in doing so aiding the killing of many innocent people.


weird isn't it? unless you want to use children as shields. which i believe he did.

Koresch was a delusional POS & it is my opinion that he was the main catalyst of the Waco incident and should be held accountable for every death that occurred on the property.


I think there is blame to go around?  Or is it important that we lay all the blame on one person?

/the shades of gray are blinding
 
2014-03-11 06:53:03 PM  

Mean Daddy: You mean when a Democrat president and his administration chose to raid vs. capture outside of the compound and killed innocent women and children?  Should we mention Elian Gonzalez or wait for another thread?


Slick Willy didn't get involved until after state and local authorities had already done a piss poor job.
I don't think his involvement would have altered the ending either way.
the Davidians wanted to die, martyrdom or some crazy bunch of hooey.
 
2014-03-11 06:53:38 PM  
I helped build Vedic City.

/I was a mason tender in the early to mid 90s.
 
2014-03-11 06:56:16 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: Isitoveryet: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

I was under the impression the the Branch was given ample time to vacate.
come out with your hands up, let the women & children go.

I think the blame falls on those that put women & children on the line of fire.

It's worse than that. The Branch found out about the raid hours before it was scheduled to go off via a postal worker.

The Branch chose to hunker down, arm up and wait for intruders. To kill them.

They could have chosen many other options than to wait in ambush then murder law enforcement agents and in doing so aiding the killing of many innocent people.


Saturday, February 27, 1993, I was printing the Sunday edition of the Marin Independent Journal, a daily newspaper in Marin County, California. I had never heard of the Branch Davidians, nor had most people outside of Waco Texas. The front page story for our newspaper was a very defamatory in-depth article all about the Branch Davidians. The publication date was February 28, 1993, the very day that law enforcement first served a warrant on David Koresh.

My question is, why did a newspaper in Northern California feel the need to devote their front page banner story (a story that ran to over 4,000 words) to an obscure cult in Waco Texas, when there was nothing newsworthy about them up to that point?
 
2014-03-11 06:56:30 PM  

Isitoveryet: TheShavingofOccam123: It's worse than that. The Branch found out about the raid hours before it was scheduled to go off via a postal worker.

The Branch chose to hunker down, arm up and wait for intruders. To kill them.

They could have chosen many other options than to wait in ambush then murder law enforcement agents and in doing so aiding the killing of many innocent people.


weird isn't it? unless you want to use children as shields. which i believe he did.

Koresch was a delusional POS & it is my opinion that he was the main catalyst of the Waco incident and should be held accountable for every death that occurred on the property.


Is it possible to believe that Koresh was a worthless piece of shiat that intended to go out in a blaze of glory, and that the authorities screwed up and gave him exactly what he wanted?

The side of law is supposed to be the one that finds a better way, not to create completely fforeseeable siege that ended in death.
 
2014-03-11 06:57:09 PM  

Gunny Highway: I think there is blame to go around? Or is it important that we lay all the blame on one person?

/the shades of gray are blinding


well, typically things don't simply explode there are always underlying circumstances that lead up to the explosion and in this case i think that was in part due to Koresh's unwillingness to work with authorities, then again, he was crazy.

then again, again, it does take 2 to tango and i could easily agree that in this case the authorities totally farked up what should have been a simple conversation (at least) prior to all the actions taken.
 
2014-03-11 06:58:27 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: TheShavingofOccam123: Isitoveryet: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

I was under the impression the the Branch was given ample time to vacate.
come out with your hands up, let the women & children go.

I think the blame falls on those that put women & children on the line of fire.

It's worse than that. The Branch found out about the raid hours before it was scheduled to go off via a postal worker.

The Branch chose to hunker down, arm up and wait for intruders. To kill them.

They could have chosen many other options than to wait in ambush then murder law enforcement agents and in doing so aiding the killing of many innocent people.

Saturday, February 27, 1993, I was printing the Sunday edition of the Marin Independent Journal, a daily newspaper in Marin County, California. I had never heard of the Branch Davidians, nor had most people outside of Waco Texas. The front page story for our newspaper was a very defamatory in-depth article all about the Branch Davidians. The publication date was February 28, 1993, the very day that law enforcement first served a warrant on David Koresh.

My question is, why did a newspaper in Northern California feel the need to devote their front page banner story (a story that ran to over 4,000 words) to an obscure cult in Waco Texas, when there was nothing newsworthy about them up to that point?


Why dont you just answer your own question.
 
2014-03-11 06:59:07 PM  

Fano: Is it possible to believe that Koresh was a worthless piece of shiat that intended to go out in a blaze of glory, and that the authorities screwed up and gave him exactly what he wanted?

The side of law is supposed to be the one that finds a better way, not to create completely fforeseeable siege that ended in death.


of course.
 
2014-03-11 07:02:43 PM  
Pop Quiz hotshot: You're the directOr of the ATF. You need to arrest a gunrunning pedophile who has a warehouse full of military grade hardware, including explosives, and a gang of goons willing to fight to the death for him. Do you: A) Nab him when he goes alone on his weekly trip to SSam's Club to pick up Funyuns and beer or B) Attempt to storm his fortified compound complete with an electrified moat filled with alligators, swinging blade traps, and a riddle giving sphinx?

Let's see what method Mallory Archer would choose.
 
2014-03-11 07:02:44 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: My question: why didn't they wait them out? Cordon off and wait?


Because children.  Because of a rumor that the children were being abused.

/that's the excuse they used, at any rate
//they did save a lot of childrens from further abuse
 
2014-03-11 07:03:12 PM  

Gunny Highway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: TheShavingofOccam123: Isitoveryet: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

I was under the impression the the Branch was given ample time to vacate.
come out with your hands up, let the women & children go.

I think the blame falls on those that put women & children on the line of fire.

It's worse than that. The Branch found out about the raid hours before it was scheduled to go off via a postal worker.

The Branch chose to hunker down, arm up and wait for intruders. To kill them.

They could have chosen many other options than to wait in ambush then murder law enforcement agents and in doing so aiding the killing of many innocent people.

Saturday, February 27, 1993, I was printing the Sunday edition of the Marin Independent Journal, a daily newspaper in Marin County, California. I had never heard of the Branch Davidians, nor had most people outside of Waco Texas. The front page story for our newspaper was a very defamatory in-depth article all about the Branch Davidians. The publication date was February 28, 1993, the very day that law enforcement first served a warrant on David Koresh.

My question is, why did a newspaper in Northern California feel the need to devote their front page banner story (a story that ran to over 4,000 words) to an obscure cult in Waco Texas, when there was nothing newsworthy about them up to that point?

Why dont you just answer your own question.


I honestly don't know. It seemed like a non sequitur at the time, and it still does. Until then, our editorial choices had followed a set, sane pattern. That article came out of left field, and made no sense in any context. I honestly wonder if it was released a day or so too early.
 
2014-03-11 07:03:48 PM  

Sgygus: JohnAnnArbor: My question: why didn't they wait them out? Cordon off and wait?

Because children.  Because of a rumor that the children were being abused.

/that's the excuse they used, at any rate
//they did save a lot of childrens from further abuse


darnit! i forgot about the child abuse allegations.
 
2014-03-11 07:04:01 PM  
They are paid $200 a month to pray? Can someone out there, a hindu maybe, explain this to me?
 
2014-03-11 07:04:36 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Gunny Highway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: TheShavingofOccam123: Isitoveryet: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

I was under the impression the the Branch was given ample time to vacate.
come out with your hands up, let the women & children go.

I think the blame falls on those that put women & children on the line of fire.

It's worse than that. The Branch found out about the raid hours before it was scheduled to go off via a postal worker.

The Branch chose to hunker down, arm up and wait for intruders. To kill them.

They could have chosen many other options than to wait in ambush then murder law enforcement agents and in doing so aiding the killing of many innocent people.

Saturday, February 27, 1993, I was printing the Sunday edition of the Marin Independent Journal, a daily newspaper in Marin County, California. I had never heard of the Branch Davidians, nor had most people outside of Waco Texas. The front page story for our newspaper was a very defamatory in-depth article all about the Branch Davidians. The publication date was February 28, 1993, the very day that law enforcement first served a warrant on David Koresh.

My question is, why did a newspaper in Northern California feel the need to devote their front page banner story (a story that ran to over 4,000 words) to an obscure cult in Waco Texas, when there was nothing newsworthy about them up to that point?

Why dont you just answer your own question.

...


Well, that is just really weird.  I apologize I thought you were getting at something haha.
 
2014-03-11 07:08:59 PM  
I met some people from Maharishi once. Good folks. Hope everything's OK. I would assume they aren't a cult, because they allow their students to travel and such.
 
2014-03-11 07:16:33 PM  
Can the Air Force AA systems be adjusted to shoot down flying Sadhus? If not, we might have a problem.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-03-11 07:17:27 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.


Bullshiat.
 
2014-03-11 07:19:20 PM  
www.pakpublishers.com
 
2014-03-11 07:19:26 PM  
Harvey Manfrenjensenjen:   You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.

I'm STILL  trying to figure out which letter of BATF's acronym covers "child abuse".
 
2014-03-11 07:20:42 PM  

Gunny Highway: Well, that is just really weird. I apologize I thought you were getting at something haha.


No problem. I found this from a Wikipedia article:

"On February 27, 1993, the  Waco Tribune-Herald began publishing "The Sinful Messiah", a series of articles by Mark England and Darlene McCormick, who alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the compound and had committed statutory rape by taking multiple underage brides."

I would bet that this was the article we printed, if they put it on the AP wire. I still have no idea why our editors would consider it suitable or even newsworthy for a regional daily newspaper that covered local news almost exclusively.
 
2014-03-11 07:22:51 PM  
"They are paid $200 a month to chant and meditate, $150 of which is sent back to their families in India. "


i.imgur.com
 
2014-03-11 07:23:45 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: I would bet that this was the article we printed, if they put it on the AP wire. I still have no idea why our editors would consider it suitable or even newsworthy for a regional daily newspaper that covered local news almost exclusively.


Yeah, that is really strange.  I was pretty young at the time so I don't have any insight on what society was like in 1993 never mind what publishers thought people wanted to read.  The story does have intrigue though.  Hell, we are talking about it all these years later.
 
2014-03-11 07:25:12 PM  
UNAUTHORIZED FINGER:  I still have no idea why our editors would consider it suitable or even newsworthy for a regional daily newspaper that covered local news almost exclusively.

The original raid just happened to occur a few days before BATF's budget was supposed to come up in Congressional hearings.  Needless to say, BATF is a truly sterling example of the Government's integrity, so I'm sure that had nothing to do with the timing of the original raid.

BTW:  Want to guess what Ruby Ridge and Waco had in common?
 
2014-03-11 07:28:46 PM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER:  I still have no idea why our editors would consider it suitable or even newsworthy for a regional daily newspaper that covered local news almost exclusively.

The original raid just happened to occur a few days before BATF's budget was supposed to come up in Congressional hearings.  Needless to say, BATF is a truly sterling example of the Government's integrity, so I'm sure that had nothing to do with the timing of the original raid.

BTW:  Want to guess what Ruby Ridge and Waco had in common?


A fascist leader who refused to cooperate with authorities and ended up contributing to the deaths of innocents? That's my guess.

/Koresh had a contest to see if he or another pastor could bring someone back from the dead. The stink won.
 
2014-03-11 07:28:50 PM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER:  I still have no idea why our editors would consider it suitable or even newsworthy for a regional daily newspaper that covered local news almost exclusively.

The original raid just happened to occur a few days before BATF's budget was supposed to come up in Congressional hearings.  Needless to say, BATF is a truly sterling example of the Government's integrity, so I'm sure that had nothing to do with the timing of the original raid.

BTW:  Want to guess what Ruby Ridge and Waco had in common?


A particular sniper?
 
2014-03-11 07:32:46 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Gunny Highway: Well, that is just really weird. I apologize I thought you were getting at something haha.

No problem. I found this from a Wikipedia article:

"On February 27, 1993, the  Waco Tribune-Herald began publishing "The Sinful Messiah", a series of articles by Mark England and Darlene McCormick, who alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the compound and had committed statutory rape by taking multiple underage brides."

I would bet that this was the article we printed, if they put it on the AP wire. I still have no idea why our editors would consider it suitable or even newsworthy for a regional daily newspaper that covered local news almost exclusively.


A community college newspaper in Phoenix wrote a story about a German diplomat and his lovely wife attending a function at the college. The local paper put the story in their paper. One of the national wire services picked the story up. One of the international wire services picked the story up. A German newspaper in the diplomat's home town ran the article. It turns out the diplomat's wife was home in Germany at the time of the function. Oops.
 
2014-03-11 07:33:00 PM  
Larry Potts.
 
2014-03-11 07:33:04 PM  

Fano: lenfromak: mr_fulano: vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?

I was wondering too, and the Google machine led me to the Wiki fount of all knowledge:

"A  pandit or  pundit (paṇḍita) is a scholar and a teacher, particularly one skilled in the Sanskrit language, who has mastered the four is derived from it but has been used to broadly refer to any of the following:
In the original usage of the word, "Pandit", synonymous to "Purohits", refers to a
The designation may also appear as the abbreviation "Pt." or "Pnt."

Robed guru type Hindu guy - aren't they supposed to be all peace-loving and shiat?

I just hate when an article like this uses local jargon withno attempt to explain it.

Someone should pandy them.


The true Panduit preaches the gospel of cable management
s14.postimg.org
Truly,
 
2014-03-11 07:34:56 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Gunny Highway: Well, that is just really weird. I apologize I thought you were getting at something haha.

No problem. I found this from a Wikipedia article:

"On February 27, 1993, the  Waco Tribune-Herald began publishing "The Sinful Messiah", a series of articles by Mark England and Darlene McCormick, who alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the compound and had committed statutory rape by taking multiple underage brides."

I would bet that this was the article we printed, if they put it on the AP wire. I still have no idea why our editors would consider it suitable or even newsworthy for a regional daily newspaper that covered local news almost exclusively.

A community college newspaper in Phoenix wrote a story about a German diplomat and his lovely wife attending a function at the college. The local paper put the story in their paper. One of the national wire services picked the story up. One of the international wire services picked the story up. A German newspaper in the diplomat's home town ran the article. It turns out the diplomat's wife was home in Germany at the time of the function. Oops.


Heh, oh man that's harsh. Busted!
 
2014-03-11 07:38:06 PM  

That Guy Jeff: They are going to be murdered by the federal government?

/reads article

Nope, a large group of people decided to go for a protest march after one of their members was arrested and the authorities tried to prevent them from marching, inciting violence until the people were successfully prevented from exercising their rights and were confined to their property.

Am I reading this correctly? And what the hell is a pandit?


Nope. You didn't read it correctly. At all.
 
2014-03-11 07:38:44 PM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: Larry Potts.


Wow, I'd never heard of the guy. I Googled him, and am reading an article in the Deseret News that claims that Timothy McVeigh fingered him as the FBI guy that was giving him orders. Curiouser and curiouser.
 
2014-03-11 07:44:17 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Waco was an excellent example of the "don't start no shiat, won't be no shiat" policy. Protip: When law enforcement comes with a search warrant, and you decide to get all shooty about it, you don't really have any cause to gripe when they burn your farking house to the ground. The U.S. Government has nothing to apologize for. Fark those whackjob Davidians, and fark their apologists.


Funny how Reno gets a free pass for murdering innocent people (most of the followers of Koresh but not Koresh himself) yet Marines are courtmartialed, jailed, and ruined when they do the same thing in Iraq. So fark the government and fark you.
 
2014-03-11 07:44:24 PM  
Waco needed to burn and they got what they deserved.
 
2014-03-11 07:45:50 PM  

TerminalEchoes: Prank Call of Cthulhu: Waco was an excellent example of the "don't start no shiat, won't be no shiat" policy. Protip: When law enforcement comes with a search warrant, and you decide to get all shooty about it, you don't really have any cause to gripe when they burn your farking house to the ground. The U.S. Government has nothing to apologize for. Fark those whackjob Davidians, and fark their apologists.

Funny how Reno gets a free pass for murdering innocent people (most of the followers of Koresh but not Koresh himself) yet Marines are courtmartialed, jailed, and ruined when they do the same thing in Iraq. So fark the government and fark you.


Like it's the same thing.  You are a farking moran.
 
2014-03-11 07:46:32 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.

We're on the Internet! Black or white, there is no Micheal Jackson.

Did the Branch Davidians over react? Yeah. Did Reno? Oh hell yeah. What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?


Very good points/questions.

Why didn't they just pull back (very early on) and catch Koresh when he left the compound (which he commonly did)?"
 
2014-03-11 07:47:28 PM  

TerminalEchoes: That Guy Jeff: They are going to be murdered by the federal government?

/reads article

Nope, a large group of people decided to go for a protest march after one of their members was arrested and the authorities tried to prevent them from marching, inciting violence until the people were successfully prevented from exercising their rights and were confined to their property.

Am I reading this correctly? And what the hell is a pandit?

Nope. You didn't read it correctly. At all.


From the article (most of the article at the time I posted):

The van exited the area and was not stopped by the large group. The large group then knocked down a gate that adjoins 170th Street. They started walking east blocking the whole street.

Sheriff's personnel attempted to divert the large group back onto the pandit complex but were unable to do so. The group then surrounded the patrol vehicle and threw rocks at the driver. They also threw rocks at the back window, breaking the window. They attempted to break off the mirrors of the patrol car and kicked out a back light. There were approximately 70-80 pandits surrounding the vehicle. The patrol car was able to back away from the crowd and the officer called for assistance.

The large group then continued east picking up rocks and debris. They continued to throw them at the sheriff's vehicle. After some time, pandit personnel were able to stop the group less than a mile from the property. They were able to walk them back to the pandit property.

Law enforcement agencies staged close to the entrance of the property to contain the group if they did come back onto the roadway. All units were able to go back into service at around 10 a.m.


Large group of people marching down a street, police try to stop them, violence ensues, police eventually get them corralled back on their property. Sounds about right... what part am I not ready correctly?
 
2014-03-11 07:48:07 PM  

TerminalEchoes: Funny how Reno gets a free pass for murdering innocent people (most of the followers of Koresh but not Koresh himself) yet Marines are courtmartialed, jailed, and ruined when they do the same thing in Iraq. So fark the government and fark you.


wow.
 
2014-03-11 07:50:31 PM  

Jclark666: They are paid $200 a month to chant and meditate, $150 of which is sent back to their families in India.

WTF visa program are they on? This is reported as fact with no explanation?

That's some fine reporting there, Lou. Who did you spoked to?


This.  At least I understand why we import thousands of radical Muslims from Somalia to the midwest (for cheap labor).

We need immigration reform now.

And by immigration reform, I don't mean blanket amnesty.
 
2014-03-11 07:55:45 PM  

Tarl3k: Richard C Stanford: htomc: The Stealth Hippopotamus:  What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?

Sending a message to the American people, of what might happen if they ever got certain dangerous ideas in their heads.  You know, things like liberty, freedom, limited government, and other such things that are so very inconvenient to the rulers.
[img.fark.net image 474x300]
So by liberty, freedom, and limited government you mean stockpiling weapons and pumping out Tater Jrs for a creepy guy who claims he's Jesus? Or do you mean being the creepy guy who claims he's Jesus?
/What's that? Oh no, it's the black helicopters coming to put you in a FEMA camp next to the NAFTA superhighway!

Beat me to it...that guy is one of the worst trolls I have seen in Fark...and there are some REALLY bad trolls here...


Wait, me or the other guy?
Anyway, that's going to be my default response to other trolls. It's from the terrible movie A Troll In Central Park, specifically a scene where one of the "evil" trolls walks around singing "I'm a baaaad troll, a very baaaad troll, la la la la la." You can find it on youtube, please, someone make that a GIF.
 
2014-03-11 07:58:10 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Secret Master of All Flatulence: Larry Potts.

Wow, I'd never heard of the guy. I Googled him, and am reading an article in the Deseret News that claims that Timothy McVeigh fingered him as the FBI guy that was giving him orders. Curiouser and curiouser.


Welcome to the waking world.  The rabbit hole is deeper than you can imagine
 
2014-03-11 08:01:49 PM  
wiki.tarantino.info
 
2014-03-11 08:09:57 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Secret Master of All Flatulence: Larry Potts.

Wow, I'd never heard of the guy. I Googled him, and am reading an article in the Deseret News that claims that Timothy McVeigh fingered him as the FBI guy that was giving him orders. Curiouser and curiouser.

Welcome to the waking world.  The rabbit hole is deeper than you can imagine


From that article:

Nichols' claims seem to indicate the FBI put McVeigh up to the plot as a draw for radicals, but that the situation got out of control and McVeigh became a runaway informant.

So the claim is that the FBI urged McVeigh to hatch a plot so they could round up radicals, McVeigh went off the reservation, they lost track of him and he went on to successfully pull off the OKC bombing?
 
2014-03-11 08:15:38 PM  

Matrix Flavored Wasabi: mr_fulano: vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?

Fun fact, our term pundit comes from pandit.



It's not "our" term, pundit in fact is the right spelling and the right pronunciation. It is pronounced: pun-dit NOT paan-dit.
 
2014-03-11 08:18:15 PM  
 
2014-03-11 08:21:49 PM  

Gunny Highway: Smeggy Smurf: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Secret Master of All Flatulence: Larry Potts.

Wow, I'd never heard of the guy. I Googled him, and am reading an article in the Deseret News that claims that Timothy McVeigh fingered him as the FBI guy that was giving him orders. Curiouser and curiouser.

Welcome to the waking world.  The rabbit hole is deeper than you can imagine

From that article:

Nichols' claims seem to indicate the FBI put McVeigh up to the plot as a draw for radicals, but that the situation got out of control and McVeigh became a runaway informant.

So the claim is that the FBI urged McVeigh to hatch a plot so they could round up radicals, McVeigh went off the reservation, they lost track of him and he went on to successfully pull off the OKC bombing?


That's a new one to me but not unreasonable for a line of investigation.  He was a dangerous and motivated man even if he was a patsy
 
2014-03-11 08:22:08 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.


Oh really?  It was Reno who made them break the law?
 
2014-03-11 08:23:20 PM  

vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?


Criminals who roam the countryside stealing from travelers.  Or a bunch of time traveling dwarves.
 
2014-03-11 08:24:58 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: Gunny Highway: Smeggy Smurf: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Secret Master of All Flatulence: Larry Potts.

Wow, I'd never heard of the guy. I Googled him, and am reading an article in the Deseret News that claims that Timothy McVeigh fingered him as the FBI guy that was giving him orders. Curiouser and curiouser.

Welcome to the waking world.  The rabbit hole is deeper than you can imagine

From that article:

Nichols' claims seem to indicate the FBI put McVeigh up to the plot as a draw for radicals, but that the situation got out of control and McVeigh became a runaway informant.

So the claim is that the FBI urged McVeigh to hatch a plot so they could round up radicals, McVeigh went off the reservation, they lost track of him and he went on to successfully pull off the OKC bombing?

That's a new one to me but not unreasonable for a line of investigation.  He was a dangerous and motivated man even if he was a patsy


I am deep into the years leading up to WW1 at the moment but I think this subject may have vaulted ahead of "light-hearted pleasure reading."
 
2014-03-11 08:26:13 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.


img.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-11 08:32:12 PM  

Truther: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.

We're on the Internet! Black or white, there is no Micheal Jackson.

Did the Branch Davidians over react? Yeah. Did Reno? Oh hell yeah. What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?

Very good points/questions.

Why didn't they just pull back (very early on) and catch Koresh when he left the compound (which he commonly did)?"


Did he continue to leave the compound after the initial shoot-out? Or do mean even earlier on? Because if you mean earlier on, there was nothing to pull back from.
 
2014-03-11 08:33:40 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.

We're on the Internet! Black or white, there is no Micheal Jackson.

Did the Branch Davidians over react? Yeah. Did Reno? Oh hell yeah. What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?


Hmm, the Branches had M16s and AK47s converted to fully automatic.  Tanks are, well, kind of bullet proof.  Also, the military vehicles there had their primary weapon systems removed before the Texas National Guard shipped them to Waco for use by the federal agents.
 
2014-03-11 08:34:44 PM  

vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?


A purglar with an odd sbeech imbediment? "After preaking and entering the pandit was pooked and made pail."

/i read who they are, put this poy ain't right :b
 
2014-03-11 08:35:29 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They burned up children



img.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-11 08:35:43 PM  

Isitoveryet: we take the law breakers into custody.


And by take them into custody he means light the place on fire and gun them down as they flee.

Smokin out the Pandit coming to a home theater near you.
 
2014-03-11 08:36:24 PM  

cig-mkr: FTA: KTVO spoked to several Fairfield residents to gauge their opinion on the pandits and the incident that took place.
Is spoked really a word ? Maybe the past tense of spoke ?


Indeed. Two syllables, spoke-ed.
 
2014-03-11 08:38:25 PM  

farkingismybusiness: How many of David Koresh's followers can fit in a convertible?

Two in the front, two in the back, and 72 in the ash tray.

/loved that joke as a third grader.


What makes it even funnier is that some of the ones in the ash tray were third graders.

Right?
 
2014-03-11 08:39:23 PM  

Mock26: Oh really?  It was Reno who made them break the law?


Law breakers deserve to be in prison.  The decisions that were made led them (and many innocent people) to the morgue instead.
 
2014-03-11 08:40:04 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: Sounds more akin to Rajneeshpuram than Waco, but the whole Rajneeshpuram thing didn't end well for anyone.


And that old property in OR is now a Christian retreat. At least they're not trying to poison people and rig local elections, as far as anyone knows.
 
2014-03-11 08:44:53 PM  
From the description of events given, it sounds like the cops should have checked to see if some of them were being held inside that barbed wire fence against their will.  You know, just in case.
 
2014-03-11 08:46:40 PM  
Waco was about douchebags trying to exercise what they laughingly believed were their constitutional rights.

Its a farking empire people. How farking retarded are people to believe that "land of the free" bulshiat?

They needed to die publically, under the benevolent boot of the state, so that others would see, and know, of the power of the dark side.
 
2014-03-11 08:47:30 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.


I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

Mock26:

img.fark.net

Start with this: FM 5-34 Combat Engineer Field Manual, paying particular attention to chapters 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10. When you've absorbed that, then I'll give you further reading.
 
2014-03-11 08:58:09 PM  

The Repeated Meme: They needed to die publically, under the benevolent boot of the state, so that others would see, and know, of the power of the dark side.


Wait, who is "the dark side?"
 
2014-03-11 09:02:10 PM  
so what's the weirdest town in Iowa then? The frog-hopping levitators of fairfield and vedic city? The hardcore capitalist religious communists of the amanas? the dutch reformed in pella who still won't let bars have lighted beer signs? the weird vibe of muscatine? The placid whitebread conformity of west des moines?

what's weird, in the end?
 
2014-03-11 09:03:56 PM  

Gunny Highway: Wait, who is "the dark side?"


There is no dark side, it's all dark, really...
paraphrased from Roger Waters
 
2014-03-11 09:06:52 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.

I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

Mock26:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

Start with this: FM 5-34 Combat Engineer Field Manual, paying particular attention to chapters 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10. When you've absorbed that, then I'll give you further reading.


Can you just forward over that further reading?  I find this type of thing fascinating.
 
2014-03-11 09:11:13 PM  
I'd like to remind people to keep an eye on the biases/slants of Internet sources.

/Doubts that Potts was McVeigh's handler.
//Naturally, I could be wrong.
 
2014-03-11 09:11:31 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.

I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

Mock26:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

Start with this: FM 5-34 Combat Engineer Field Manual, paying particular attention to chapters 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10. When you've absorbed that, then I'll give you further reading.


I saw one chapter on blowing stuff up, and nothing on burning stuff down.
 
2014-03-11 09:13:02 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: MBooda:

[img.fark.net image 640x480]

Bottom left, Jesse Pinkman sighting!


Damnit, I was just about to shop "Science biatches!"
 
2014-03-11 09:15:55 PM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: I'd like to remind people to keep an eye on the biases/slants of Internet sources.

/Doubts that Potts was McVeigh's handler.
//Naturally, I could be wrong.


Yeah.

Someone posted this article further up the thread.  They didnt say anything about it, just plopped it down.  I am half way through and it seems like it is trying to say that the Davidians were great people and they did nothing wrong and they were just bullied by the government.  I cant believe that either side is clean in this story.


http://newresister.blogspot.com/2008/12/assault-on-waco-introduction -a nd-part-1.html
 
2014-03-11 09:17:01 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Gunny Highway: Wait, who is "the dark side?"

There is no dark side, it's all dark, really...
paraphrased from Roger Waters


Dude, Goldstein Sachs claims to be in Karachi, Pakistan. Do not provide further references.
Perhaps this discussion should move offline.

More to the point, targeting a building with civilians inside when there is no operational risks for continuing a siege is both illegal and asinine. Besides, they'd have used Willy Peter, not CS, if the goal was to burn them out.
 
2014-03-11 09:17:15 PM  

fireclown: They are paid $200 a month to pray? Can someone out there, a hindu maybe, explain this to me?


It's like marketing. No one believes in marketing.

/marketing
 
2014-03-11 09:20:28 PM  

Goldstien Sachs: Can you just forward over that further reading? I find this type of thing fascinating.


I can link you to a government source for FM pdfs, but whenever I click on the pdfs, I get a warning that the site is unsecure. You're welcome to peruse them but do so at your own risk. Here's the LINK. I might recommend FM 2-91.4, FM 3-05, FM 3-11.11, FM 3-11.9, FM 3-11.22, FM 3-11.21, FM 3-11.50, FM 3-13, and wow, there's just endless reading on this subject. There are dozens more I could recommend that all pertain to this. Enjoy!
 
2014-03-11 09:22:57 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Gunny Highway: Wait, who is "the dark side?"

There is no dark side, it's all dark, really...
paraphrased from Roger Waters

Dude, Goldstein Sachs claims to be in Karachi, Pakistan. Do not provide further references.
Perhaps this discussion should move offline.

More to the point, targeting a building with civilians inside when there is no operational risks for continuing a siege is both illegal and asinine. Besides, they'd have used Willy Peter, not CS, if the goal was to burn them out.


Not if they were trying to retain plausible deniability. They first claimed that they used non-incendiary tear gas, then when confronted with incendiary tear gas canisters in the rubble, they claimed it wasn't theirs.
 
2014-03-11 09:25:57 PM  

Omahawg: so what's the weirdest town in Iowa then? The frog-hopping levitators of fairfield and vedic city? The hardcore capitalist religious communists of the amanas? the dutch reformed in pella who still won't let bars have lighted beer signs? the weird vibe of muscatine? The placid whitebread conformity of west des moines?

what's weird, in the end?


Great question.  Amana Colonies is way freakier than Fairfield...cannot put my finger on why.  Pella just sucks (wife went to Central).  I don't know much about Muscatine, and bingo, you nailed WDM on the head.  Throw in Waukee with WDM.

/live 30 minutes from Fairfield
//pissed off the levitators in a big way (that's another story)
 
2014-03-11 09:26:45 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Gunny Highway: Wait, who is "the dark side?"

There is no dark side, it's all dark, really...
paraphrased from Roger Waters

Dude, Goldstein Sachs claims to be in Karachi, Pakistan. Do not provide further references.
Perhaps this discussion should move offline.

More to the point, targeting a building with civilians inside when there is no operational risks for continuing a siege is both illegal and asinine. Besides, they'd have used Willy Peter, not CS, if the goal was to burn them out.

Not if they were trying to retain plausible deniability. They first claimed that they used non-incendiary tear gas, then when confronted with incendiary tear gas canisters in the rubble, they claimed it wasn't theirs.


Not buying it: There was no reason to kill them when they had them dead to rights on federal felonies for firearms, murder, and holding hostages. The food would have run out, and you can't eat ammo.
 
2014-03-11 09:42:28 PM  
i141.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-11 09:45:27 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Gunny Highway: Wait, who is "the dark side?"

There is no dark side, it's all dark, really...
paraphrased from Roger Waters

Dude, Goldstein Sachs claims to be in Karachi, Pakistan. Do not provide further references.
Perhaps this discussion should move offline.

More to the point, targeting a building with civilians inside when there is no operational risks for continuing a siege is both illegal and asinine. Besides, they'd have used Willy Peter, not CS, if the goal was to burn them out.

Not if they were trying to retain plausible deniability. They first claimed that they used non-incendiary tear gas, then when confronted with incendiary tear gas canisters in the rubble, they claimed it wasn't theirs.

Not buying it: There was no reason to kill them when they had them dead to rights on federal felonies for firearms, murder, and holding hostages. The food would have run out, and you can't eat ammo.


Then we'll just have to disagree on this. I watched the final assault live, while talking on the telephone to my sister, and predicted 30 minutes before the fire(s) started what was going to happen, then cried with her as those criminals and their children burned. In my mind, it was murder pure and simple. I tried to watch the documentary that someone upthread recommended (sorry, I can't find your name, or I'd cite you) and got just a few minutes into it and had to stop. It still moves me.
 
2014-03-11 09:47:23 PM  

HeadLever: Mock26: Oh really?  It was Reno who made them break the law?

Law breakers deserve to be in prison.  The decisions that were made led them (and many innocent people) to the morgue instead.


Sometimes lawbreakers die.  That is just the way it works out sometimes.  If they really wanted to live then maybe they should not have broken the law.
 
2014-03-11 09:50:13 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.

I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

Mock26:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

Start with this: FM 5-34 Combat Engineer Field Manual, paying particular attention to chapters 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10. When you've absorbed that, then I'll give you further reading.


Not very good at this whole proof thing, are you?

Here, let me rephrase it for you:  Prove that this is what the federal agents on the scene did.  Providing a link to a training manual is not proof that said material was used in the assault.  Care to try again?
 
2014-03-11 09:58:53 PM  
Called this town before I even clicked the link.

/I drive by it real fast whenever I have to travel that way
//Iowan
 
2014-03-11 10:02:51 PM  

Mock26: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.

I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

Mock26:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

Start with this: FM 5-34 Combat Engineer Field Manual, paying particular attention to chapters 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10. When you've absorbed that, then I'll give you further reading.

Not very good at this whole proof thing, are you?

Here, let me rephrase it for you:  Prove that this is what the federal agents on the scene did.  Providing a link to a training manual is not proof that said material was used in the assault.  Care to try again?


You provided an image. That told me nothing. I had to guess at what you were questioning. You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.
 
2014-03-11 10:06:07 PM  

knobmaker: farkingismybusiness: How many of David Koresh's followers can fit in a convertible?

Two in the front, two in the back, and 72 in the ash tray.

/loved that joke as a third grader.

What makes it even funnier is that some of the ones in the ash tray were third graders.

Right?


I had a dark sense of humor before I even knew long division.
 
2014-03-11 10:08:01 PM  

Mock26: HeadLever: Mock26: Oh really?  It was Reno who made them break the law?

Law breakers deserve to be in prison.  The decisions that were made led them (and many innocent people) to the morgue instead.

Sometimes lawbreakers die.  That is just the way it works out sometimes.  If they really wanted to live then maybe they should not have broken the law.


And those children they had in there with them? They deserved to burn to death too? Let's face it, the government is at least partially to blame for the deaths of those children. They had the cult completely surrounded. They could have just waited and starved them out, but no, they launched an assault and intentionally or intentionally lit the whole farking place on fire.
 
2014-03-11 10:11:02 PM  

Mock26: Not very good at this whole proof thing, are you?
Here, let me rephrase it for you:  Prove that this is what the federal agents on the scene did.  Providing a link to a training manual is not proof that said material was used in the assault.  Care to try again?


Field manual. But it didn't have anything in it about how to burning down houses.
/It did have stuff on useful KABOOMs.
 
2014-03-11 10:15:43 PM  

buzzcut73: I grew up about an hour from Fairfield, (kick, replies) and even lived there for a couple of years later on as an adult. Lots of woo up there, what with Maharishi International University and all...of all the things I would think might happen there, some sort of guru uprising would have been the last.

Granola shortage causing panic in the streets, maybe.


I went to school in Kirksville (about a hour from Fairfield in Missouri) and watched KTVO a lot while I was in college.

This is easily the most exciting thing that's happened to that region since Kirksville got hit with a tornado a few years back.
 
2014-03-11 10:29:10 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.


You want to take a moment to fix your make-up and straighten your tiara, sweetie?
 
2014-03-11 10:32:01 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Waco was an excellent example of the "don't start no shiat, won't be no shiat" policy. Protip: When law enforcement comes with a search warrant, and you decide to get all shooty about it, you don't really have any cause to gripe when they burn your farking house to the ground. The U.S. Government has nothing to apologize for. Fark those whackjob Davidians, and fark their apologists.


What did the Davidians start?  You seem to have an odd concept of cause and effect.

Basically every argument against the Davidians and Koresh boil down to, he's weird, unchristian, or I dont like him.
 
2014-03-11 10:34:47 PM  

DrBenway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.

You want to take a moment to fix your make-up and straighten your tiara, sweetie?


That's cute, but how is this:

img.fark.net

a request for specific information? I repeat, fark that guy. Sweetie.
 
2014-03-11 10:38:20 PM  

Mock26: If they really wanted to live then maybe they should not have broken the law.


If the Government wanted them to really live, it would seem like the best option would be to wait them out, or maybe capture Koresh a few months earlier, amiright?

I am sure that a good number of the folks trapped inside probably wanted to live and probably never broke the law.
 
2014-03-11 10:40:22 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I can believe that someone in Washington would order the compound taken. I can believe that mistakes were made in the taking of that compound. But I just can't believe that the ATF on the ground would have gone for that.


I dont know, I watched/listened to law enforcement burn Christopher Dorner alive very purposefully.  "We're going to uh.. going to go ahead with the plan.  Set up the burners."


"Today, hot smoke/tear gas canisters accidentally burned down the house Dorner was hiding in..."

Its SOP for barricaded suspects who have the ability and willingness to kill law enforcement.  There have been many examples throughout US history of these tactics being employed, although I dont have the energy to go looking for them all right now.  It happened a lot in the 70s in particular with the various militant groups like the BLA etc running amok.
 
2014-03-11 10:42:30 PM  

Omahawg: so what's the weirdest town in Iowa then? The frog-hopping levitators of fairfield and vedic city? The hardcore capitalist religious communists of the amanas? the dutch reformed in pella who still won't let bars have lighted beer signs? the weird vibe of muscatine? The placid whitebread conformity of west des moines?

what's weird, in the end?


The conformists of WDM, for sure.  At least those other groups contribute in unique ways- Dutch letters, Amana beef...those suburbanites in WDM are creepy, aggressive, hive-minded drones; and drive like shiat.
 
2014-03-11 10:45:24 PM  

Need_MindBleach: Mock26: HeadLever: Mock26: Oh really?  It was Reno who made them break the law?

Law breakers deserve to be in prison.  The decisions that were made led them (and many innocent people) to the morgue instead.

Sometimes lawbreakers die.  That is just the way it works out sometimes.  If they really wanted to live then maybe they should not have broken the law.

And those children they had in there with them? They deserved to burn to death too? Let's face it, the government is at least partially to blame for the deaths of those children. They had the cult completely surrounded. They could have just waited and starved them out, but no, they launched an assault and intentionally or intentionally lit the whole farking place on fire.


Where exactly did I state that anyone deserved to die?  As for those children, I put the blame on the branch davidians for putting them in harm's way.
 
2014-03-11 10:48:21 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Mock26: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.

I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

Mock26:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

Start with this: FM 5-34 Combat Engineer Field Manual, paying particular attention to chapters 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10. When you've absorbed that, then I'll give you further reading.

Not very good at this whole proof thing, are you?

Here, let me rephrase it for you:  Prove that this is what the federal agents on the scene did.  Providing a link to a training manual is not proof that said material was used in the assault.  Care to try again?

You provided an image. That told me nothing. I had to guess at what you were questioning. You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.


You claimed that the children were burned on purpose.  I put up an image that said "Citation needed."  Nowhere in any of that article you linked to does it state to burn children on purpose nowhere.  And nowhere does it actually prove that the federal agents did any of what you claimed to do.  Sorry you are such a farking retard and do not know what constitutes proof.  And if you want to be asked a question respectfully, well, maybe you should not be such a moran.
 
2014-03-11 10:50:34 PM  
I've been there. Creepy place. Every home faces the same direction and has pretty much the same layout. In fact just about every building faces the same way. Weird.

The people are, um, creepy too. Not like, "Join our cult, we're really cool," creepy, just off. Good food though.
 
2014-03-11 10:52:20 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DrBenway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.

You want to take a moment to fix your make-up and straighten your tiara, sweetie?

That's cute, but how is this:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

a request for specific information? I repeat, fark that guy. Sweetie.


You made very specific claims, none of which were supported by that field manual text.  None.  Nowhere in that manual does it state that they intentionally burned children, or that they did in fact wait for the windiest day, or that they made holes in such and such location to create a chimney effect.  What is in a field manual does not prove intent in the field.  Even the stupidest of fark lawyers could have that field manual thrown out as evidence.
 
2014-03-11 10:52:20 PM  

farkingismybusiness: I had a dark sense of humor before I even knew long division.


And people say community colleges aren't helping
 
2014-03-11 10:55:20 PM  

Fubegra: A quick Google Maps search indicates that "Maharishi Vedic City, IA 52556" is a thing. In Iowa? WTF?


Why is there a major Hare Krishna settlement in West Virginia? My guess: cheap land.

Bathia_Mapes: Fubegra: Bathia_Mapes: Sounds more akin to Rajneeshpuram than Waco, but the whole Rajneeshpuram thing didn't end well for anyone.

That's kind of what I was thinking too. That was an epic fustercluck if there ever was one.

A quick Google Maps search indicates that "Maharishi Vedic City, IA 52556" is a thing. In Iowa? WTF?

I know, right?

And Rajneeshpuram was indeed an epic clusterfark, right down to infecting several restaurant salad bars in The Dalles with salmonella in the hopes of preventing people from voting in an upcoming election.


Don't forget about the plot to murder the U.S. Attorney...
 
2014-03-11 10:59:52 PM  

Mock26: As for those children, I put the blame on the branch davidians for putting them in harm's way.


"Harm's way" here was a two way street.  Without the government pushing the issue, there is no harm to the 'hostage'.
 
2014-03-11 11:00:22 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DrBenway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.

You want to take a moment to fix your make-up and straighten your tiara, sweetie?

That's cute, but how is this:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

a request for specific information? I repeat, fark that guy. Sweetie.


Mock26: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DrBenway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.

You want to take a moment to fix your make-up and straighten your tiara, sweetie?

That's cute, but how is this:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

a request for specific information? I repeat, fark that guy. Sweetie.

You made very specific claims, none of which were supported by that field manual text.  None.  Nowhere in that manual does it state that they intentionally burned children, or that they did in fact wait for the windiest day, or that they made holes in such and such location to create a chimney effect.  What is in a field manual does not prove intent in the field.  Even the stupidest of fark lawyers could have that field manual thrown out as evidence.


Apparently, you didn't say "pretty please."
 
2014-03-11 11:00:36 PM  

HeadLever: Mock26: If they really wanted to live then maybe they should not have broken the law.

If the Government wanted them to really live, it would seem like the best option would be to wait them out, or maybe capture Koresh a few months earlier, amiright?

I am sure that a good number of the folks trapped inside probably wanted to live and probably never broke the law.


Then those folks should have left or stopped associating with those who were breaking the law.

As for capturing him earlier, that is true, but that is not what happened.  As for standoffs, so any time a criminal holes up somewhere we should just waste potentially millions of dollars of money by surrounding him and wait for him to eventually give up?  Yeah, now there is a great plan.  And somehow I bet that if that had gone on for another 51 days, costing roughly another 7 million dollars, that people would have been up in arms over that.  Stand offs only work for so long.  Eventually you just have to go in and take down the criminals, and sometimes innocent people get caught in the crossfire.  In this situation I will not weep for those innocents, because they have only themselves (or their parents) to blame for being there.  They should have walked out of there instead of praying for the government to go away.

Also, in regards to taking Koresh earlier, he did not travel outside of the compound with the fully automatic firearms.  He had to be taken in the compound where the guns were.  That is why they did not take him earlier.
 
2014-03-11 11:03:19 PM  

HeadLever: Mock26: As for those children, I put the blame on the branch davidians for putting them in harm's way.

"Harm's way" here was a two way street.  Without the government pushing the issue, there is no harm to the 'hostage'.


They were still breaking the law.  One of the key points of law enforcement is going out and catching the bad guys, not just standing around and watching them.
 
2014-03-11 11:04:26 PM  

DrBenway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DrBenway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.

You want to take a moment to fix your make-up and straighten your tiara, sweetie?

That's cute, but how is this:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

a request for specific information? I repeat, fark that guy. Sweetie.

Mock26: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DrBenway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.

You want to take a moment to fix your make-up and straighten your tiara, sweetie?

That's cute, but how is this:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

a request for specific information? I repeat, fark that guy. Sweetie.

You made very specific claims, none of which were supported by that field manual text.  None.  Nowhere in that manual does it state that they intentionally burned children, or that they did in fact wait for the windiest day, or that they made holes in such and such location to create a chimney effect.  What is in a field manual does not prove intent in the field.  Even the stupidest of fark lawyers could have that field manual thrown out as evidence.

Apparently, you didn't say "pretty please."


Maybe her tiara is a bit too tight.
 
2014-03-11 11:09:16 PM  

Mock26: Then those folks should have left or stopped associating with those who were breaking the law.


Do you really think that they had the choice to simply walk out the door here?  From coercion/brainwashing of Koresh to the installation of the notion that the government was going to kill them all, that is the last thing that was going to happen and the government knew that full well.

To suggest otherwise is being naive of the realities of this situation.

One of the key points of law enforcement is going out and catching the bad guys, not just standing around and watching them.

Only after collateral damage is minimized.  They knew where Koresh was and they knew that he was not going anywhere soon.  'Catching the bad guy' was inevitable.  The only other question was how many were going to be killed in the process.  The goal should have always been zero.
 
2014-03-11 11:11:12 PM  

Mock26: HeadLever: Mock26: As for those children, I put the blame on the branch davidians for putting them in harm's way.

"Harm's way" here was a two way street.  Without the government pushing the issue, there is no harm to the 'hostage'.

They were still breaking the law.  One of the key points of law enforcement is going out and catching the bad guys, not just standing around and watching them.


Yeah, who cares how many people you kill? That's my kind of justice!
 
2014-03-11 11:22:49 PM  

Mock26: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DrBenway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.

You want to take a moment to fix your make-up and straighten your tiara, sweetie?

That's cute, but how is this:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

a request for specific information? I repeat, fark that guy. Sweetie.

You made very specific claims, none of which were supported by that field manual text.  None.  Nowhere in that manual does it state that they intentionally burned children, or that they did in fact wait for the windiest day, or that they made holes in such and such location to create a chimney effect.  What is in a field manual does not prove intent in the field.  Even the stupidest of fark lawyers could have that field manual thrown out as evidence.


And you didn't specifiy what information you wanted verified. You might as well go outside and yell at the sky, "WHY!?!" And when I answered what I thought you might mean, you got biatchy. The only things I will provide "citations" for is my experience and expertise and the knowledge that what I stated is the truth as I see it. If that isn't good enough for you, well, tough titty.
 
2014-03-11 11:23:26 PM  

HeadLever: Mock26: Then those folks should have left or stopped associating with those who were breaking the law.

Do you really think that they had the choice to simply walk out the door here?  From coercion/brainwashing of Koresh to the installation of the notion that the government was going to kill them all, that is the last thing that was going to happen and the government knew that full well.

To suggest otherwise is being naive of the realities of this situation.

One of the key points of law enforcement is going out and catching the bad guys, not just standing around and watching them.

Only after collateral damage is minimized.  They knew where Koresh was and they knew that he was not going anywhere soon.  'Catching the bad guy' was inevitable.  The only other question was how many were going to be killed in the process.  The goal should have always been zero.


Of course not, but it is equally stupid to suggest that the government just throw away yet more money by surrounding the place and just sitting on their arses for even longer than the 51 days they were already there just on the hope that "maybe today they will give up peacefully and everyone will walk out the door."  Yeah, the branch davidians were dead-set (pun intended) and going down with guns blazing.  They got what they wanted.  So blame those in charge of the branch davidian group for brainwashing others and for keeping them there as some sort of shield of hope to stop the government from assaulting the place.  Yeah, some innocents died, but big farking deal.  shiat happens.
 
2014-03-11 11:25:47 PM  

Mock26: As for those children, I put the blame on the branch davidians for putting them in harm's way.


So you wouldnt oppose the state coming to take your kids away from you?

Mock26: They were still breaking the law. One of the key points of law enforcement is going out and catching the bad guys, not just standing around and watching them.


Here is where you could educate me- what law were they convicted of breaking?

Mock26: Then those folks should have left or stopped associating with those who were breaking the law.


I'm sure if a trial had ensued and Koresh were found guilty, his followers would have left.  But the Feds played judge and jury on that land rather than in a courtroom.

There was no need to hurry, no timetable to consider for law enforcement.  Simply put, waiting was the best option.
 
2014-03-11 11:28:29 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Mock26: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DrBenway: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.

You want to take a moment to fix your make-up and straighten your tiara, sweetie?

That's cute, but how is this:

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

a request for specific information? I repeat, fark that guy. Sweetie.

You made very specific claims, none of which were supported by that field manual text.  None.  Nowhere in that manual does it state that they intentionally burned children, or that they did in fact wait for the windiest day, or that they made holes in such and such location to create a chimney effect.  What is in a field manual does not prove intent in the field.  Even the stupidest of fark lawyers could have that field manual thrown out as evidence.

And you didn't specifiy what information you wanted verified. You might as well go outside and yell at the sky, "WHY!?!" And when I answered what I thought you might mean, you got biatchy. The only things I will provide "citations" for is my experience and expertise and the knowledge that what I stated is the truth as I see it. If that isn't good enough for you, well, tough titty.


Sigh.  You claimed that the federal agents did something very specific.  When someone says, "Citation needed" then even someone with only a passing relationship to the educational system would know that it means to prove the specific claims that you made.  Posting a link to some field manual does not constitute proof that supports your claim that those federal agents did specifically what you said they did.  And I did not get biatchy.  I got condescending, because you were too farking stupid to provide proof to back up your blatant lies.
 
2014-03-11 11:30:18 PM  

Witness99: Oh FANTASTIC, there's not enough shiat hitting the fan and now I gotta worry about loose Pandits. And not just any Pandits, angry Pandits. Pandits, Pandits everywhere!

/TFA wrote "Pandit" 31 times


I thought it was weird that the author never referred to them as men, people, or anything other than Pandits. What audience benefited from dehumanizing then?
 
2014-03-11 11:36:04 PM  

Mock26: Sigh. You claimed that the federal agents did something very specific. When someone says, "Citation needed" then even someone with only a passing relationship to the educational system would know that it means to prove the specific claims that you made. Posting a link to some field manual does not constitute proof that supports your claim that those federal agents did specifically what you said they did. And I did not get biatchy. I got condescending, because you were too farking stupid to provide proof to back up your blatant lies.


Now it is your turn.

Frederick: Here is where you could educate me- what law were they convicted of breaking?

 
2014-03-11 11:44:26 PM  

HeadLever: Mock26: Then those folks should have left or stopped associating with those who were breaking the law.

Do you really think that they had the choice to simply walk out the door here?  From coercion/brainwashing of Koresh to the installation of the notion that the government was going to kill them all, that is the last thing that was going to happen and the government knew that full well.

To suggest otherwise is being naive of the realities of this situation.

One of the key points of law enforcement is going out and catching the bad guys, not just standing around and watching them.

Only after collateral damage is minimized.  They knew where Koresh was and they knew that he was not going anywhere soon.  'Catching the bad guy' was inevitable.  The only other question was how many were going to be killed in the process.  The goal should have always been zero.


This. I can't believe that I'm trying to argue with someone who thinks that law enforcement should actually be used as an extralegal execution squad. Citizens do deserve their day in court. And being a representative of the United States law enforcement means specifically that you have to obey the law. If there is a way to peacefully resolve things that has to be done.

Of course, firefights happen and that's why cops have guns.
 
2014-03-11 11:46:27 PM  

fst_creeper: Fubegra: Zooming in on Vedic City in with satellite view shows all sorts of weirdness. In the northwest corner of the town, there's an area that looks an awful lot like military barracks (or a concentration camp).

Reminds me of something far worse than a barracks area.


Student housing?
 
2014-03-11 11:46:51 PM  

trappedspirit: farkingismybusiness: I had a dark sense of humor before I even knew long division.

And people say community colleges aren't helping


I never went to community college. I learned long division in prison.
 
2014-03-11 11:48:17 PM  

Frederick: Mock26: As for those children, I put the blame on the branch davidians for putting them in harm's way.

So you wouldnt oppose the state coming to take your kids away from you?

Mock26: They were still breaking the law. One of the key points of law enforcement is going out and catching the bad guys, not just standing around and watching them.

Here is where you could educate me- what law were they convicted of breaking?

Mock26: Then those folks should have left or stopped associating with those who were breaking the law.

I'm sure if a trial had ensued and Koresh were found guilty, his followers would have left.  But the Feds played judge and jury on that land rather than in a courtroom.

There was no need to hurry, no timetable to consider for law enforcement.  Simply put, waiting was the best option.


No, they did not play judge and jury.  They used force to apprehend criminals, something that they are legally authorized to do.  Just because things went south for the branchies does not mean that the federal agents just threw the constitution out the window and held a drum head trial in the field and executed the branchies.  They used necessary force to apprehend criminals who were holed up in a fortified position.  Again, they are authorized to do so.  If the branchies wanted to be tried in a court of law then they should have given up peacefully instead of deciding on armed resistance as the best course of action.  But the moment they did take up arms then an armed response from the government was now on the table.  And just because the government decided on an armed response does not mean that the feds played judge and jury in the field.  Or would you rather that the feds had stormed the compound waving a bunch of billy clubs and had them gunned down by the branchies?  The branchies have only themselves to blame.  They had every opportunity to give up, for 50 days.

Convicted of?  None at the time of the raid, but one does not need to be convicted in order to be arrested.  But since you asked, they had possession of illegal firearms.

As for waiting, that wastes money.  Nor is it the best option, as it gives the criminals time to plan and possibly carry out those plans.
 
2014-03-11 11:49:42 PM  
uh huh
 
2014-03-11 11:51:33 PM  

mr_fulano: vudukungfu: Dafarqs a pandit?

I was wondering too, and the Google machine led me to the Wiki fount of all knowledge:

"A  pandit or  pundit (paṇḍita) is a scholar and a teacher, particularly one skilled in the Sanskrit language, who has mastered the four is derived from it but has been used to broadly refer to any of the following:
In the original usage of the word, "Pandit", synonymous to "Purohits", refers to a
The designation may also appear as the abbreviation "Pt." or "Pnt."

Robed guru type Hindu guy - aren't they supposed to be all peace-loving and shiat?


actually, no they aren't
 
2014-03-11 11:52:00 PM  

Frederick: Mock26: As for those children, I put the blame on the branch davidians for putting them in harm's way.

So you wouldnt oppose the state coming to take your kids away from you?



If I had kids I would not put them in a position of being taken away because I was in possession of illegal firearms and I would certainly not fortify my house and use my kids as some sort of shield to try and keep the police from storming the place.  Of course, I am not some bat-schitt crazy, paranoid religious nut conspiracy theorist, so I do not see that happening to my and my non-existent children.
 
2014-03-11 11:52:20 PM  
They're paid to meditae for world peace?
Deport them.
It ain't working.
 
2014-03-11 11:55:45 PM  
krishna.org

This is what a pundit looks like.
 
2014-03-11 11:58:07 PM  

Fano: HeadLever: Mock26: Then those folks should have left or stopped associating with those who were breaking the law.

Do you really think that they had the choice to simply walk out the door here?  From coercion/brainwashing of Koresh to the installation of the notion that the government was going to kill them all, that is the last thing that was going to happen and the government knew that full well.

To suggest otherwise is being naive of the realities of this situation.

One of the key points of law enforcement is going out and catching the bad guys, not just standing around and watching them.

Only after collateral damage is minimized.  They knew where Koresh was and they knew that he was not going anywhere soon.  'Catching the bad guy' was inevitable.  The only other question was how many were going to be killed in the process.  The goal should have always been zero.

This. I can't believe that I'm trying to argue with someone who thinks that law enforcement should actually be used as an extralegal execution squad. Citizens do deserve their day in court. And being a representative of the United States law enforcement means specifically that you have to obey the law. If there is a way to peacefully resolve things that has to be done.

Of course, firefights happen and that's why cops have guns.


Nowhere have I said that the branchies deserved to die or that they should not have had their day in court.  But, sch!tt happens, and this just happens to be one situation where the sch!tt was a really big one.  I am just saying that I do not blame the government.  I do not think that all the leaders were sitting around and on day 51 they all said, "Hey, do you know what would look great on TV?  If we went in guns blazing and murdered a bunch of innocent women and children!  Yeah, that would be freaking AWESOME!"  Anyone who believes that or that they decided to skip the courts and the entire judicial system and deliberately killed them is the king of idiots.  The federal agents made a decision to end the siege and apprehend the criminals.  Those criminals chose to fight.  And they died.  Sometimes that happens.  And this is one of those situations.  The branchies have only themselves to blame.  They broke the law.  They decided on armed resistance.  They could have avoided all of this by giving up on Day 1.  Blame them for deciding they were above the law.  Do not blame the federal agents for doing their job.
 
2014-03-12 12:37:14 AM  

Mock26: Nowhere have I said that the branchies deserved to die or that they should not have had their day in court. But, sch!tt happens, and this just happens to be one situation where the sch!tt was a really big one. I am just saying that I do not blame the government. I do not think that all the leaders were sitting around and on day 51 they all said, "Hey, do you know what would look great on TV? If we went in guns blazing and murdered a bunch of innocent women and children! Yeah, that would be freaking AWESOME!" Anyone who believes that or that they decided to skip the courts and the entire judicial system and deliberately killed them is the king of idiots. The federal agents made a decision to end the siege and apprehend the criminals. Those criminals chose to fight. And they died. Sometimes that happens. And this is one of those situations. The branchies have only themselves to blame. They broke the law. They decided on armed resistance. They could have avoided all of this by giving up on Day 1. Blame them for deciding they were above the law. Do not blame the federal agents for doing their job.


img.fark.net

/now do you get it?
 
2014-03-12 02:56:49 AM  
Fark you! Enough with postings that try to force you to download their mobile ap!!!! Shame! Shame!! Double Fark!!!
 
2014-03-12 03:33:07 AM  

Need_MindBleach: Mock26: HeadLever: Mock26: Oh really?  It was Reno who made them break the law?

Law breakers deserve to be in prison.  The decisions that were made led them (and many innocent people) to the morgue instead.

Sometimes lawbreakers die.  That is just the way it works out sometimes.  If they really wanted to live then maybe they should not have broken the law.

And those children they had in there with them? They deserved to burn to death too? Let's face it, the government is at least partially to blame for the deaths of those children. They had the cult completely surrounded. They could have just waited and starved them out, but no, they launched an assault and intentionally or intentionally lit the whole farking place on fire.


A prolonged standoff would probably have had an ending that looked like the Jonestown massacre.
 
2014-03-12 05:16:13 AM  
"Pandits are young men brought over from India, and they are housed in a fenced campus.
They are paid $200 a month to chant and meditate, $150 of which is sent back to their families in India."

"Pandits have made headlines frequently for disappearing after their two years are up.
They receive visas as part of the program.
It is likely they disappear because they do not want to return to India but cannot stay on campus."


 I read very few of the comments above, because really?
Isn't $200/mth far less than the minimum wage for chanting? My guess would have been at least $400.
If $50/wk is the going rate, that may not be my thing.....but I think 3/4 to the Fam is a bit steep.
"I" get to live on $50/mth? Cost of living is WAY higher here!! Sure, I don't need to goto a theater to watch a movie, but I need to pay the cable to .torrent and Candy Crush. Seriously. Boss. Send the Parents and in-laws $50 (that's PLENTY!)
Is that a Visa? kthxbye!
 
2014-03-12 05:29:11 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.


I didn't know you had opinions...  I thought you just posted pictures....
 
2014-03-12 08:35:10 AM  

Mock26: Of course not, but it is equally stupid to suggest that the government just throw away yet more money by surrounding the place and just sitting on their arses for even longer than the 51 days


Sure, they could have pulled the tanks, armored carriers, and thousands of armed government agents back away from the compound and simply placed the area under surveillance with about a 1/10th the personnel.  Just apprehend all that comes out for food and eventually you will have them all.  Pretty easy if you ask me and low cost as well.

Yeah, some innocents died, but big farking deal.  shiat happens.

I'd bet you feel the same exact way when it is your kids that are killed.  Your disregard for human life is telling
 
2014-03-12 08:40:15 AM  
So by liberty, freedom, and limited government you mean stockpiling weapons and pumping out Tater Jrs for a creepy guy who claims he's Jesus? Or do you mean being the creepy guy who claims he's Jesus?


Yes. Exactly. Weird, strange, whatever. Those are all examples of freedom.
 
2014-03-12 08:41:06 AM  

Fano: Pop Quiz hotshot: You're the directOr of the ATF. You need to.....


C) Come up with some guaranteed public spectacle to deflect attention away from the racial discrimination and sexual harassment charges in process against your organization.
 
2014-03-12 09:06:17 AM  

Krieghund: A prolonged standoff would probably have had an ending that looked like the Jonestown massacre.


In that case, at least you would not be party to the actual killings.  That case would mean any death would be completely on them.
 
2014-03-12 09:10:22 AM  

Mock26: They could have avoided all of this by giving up on Day 1.  Blame them for deciding they were above the law.  Do not blame the federal agents for doing their job.


They could have avoided this by apprehending Koresh months earlier, but they didn't.  And we are not blaming the agents, they were only doing what they were told.  No matter how you deflect, those that were making the decisions on the government side are culpable for what happened.

Criminals are not going to be playing by the rules.  However, that is no excuse for the government not to be the 'grownup' in these circumstances.
 
2014-03-12 09:58:10 AM  

farkingismybusiness: How many of David Koresh's followers can fit in a convertible?

Two in the front, two in the back, and 72 in the ash tray.

/loved that joke as a third grader.


Hahaha! When I was a kid that was a Space Shuttle joke... only it was a Volkswagen Beetle. Along with "How did they know Christa Mcauliffs eyes were blue? One blew this way, and one blew that way."
 
2014-03-12 11:39:58 AM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Mock26: Nowhere have I said that the branchies deserved to die or that they should not have had their day in court. But, sch!tt happens, and this just happens to be one situation where the sch!tt was a really big one. I am just saying that I do not blame the government. I do not think that all the leaders were sitting around and on day 51 they all said, "Hey, do you know what would look great on TV? If we went in guns blazing and murdered a bunch of innocent women and children! Yeah, that would be freaking AWESOME!" Anyone who believes that or that they decided to skip the courts and the entire judicial system and deliberately killed them is the king of idiots. The federal agents made a decision to end the siege and apprehend the criminals. Those criminals chose to fight. And they died. Sometimes that happens. And this is one of those situations. The branchies have only themselves to blame. They broke the law. They decided on armed resistance. They could have avoided all of this by giving up on Day 1. Blame them for deciding they were above the law. Do not blame the federal agents for doing their job.

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

/now do you get it?


or as Ron burgundy would say, "when in Rome?"
 
2014-03-12 11:49:07 AM  
I don't get it. What does a airplane have to do with a bunch of indian guys babbling in a commune?

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-03-12 06:53:09 PM  

HeadLever: Mock26: Of course not, but it is equally stupid to suggest that the government just throw away yet more money by surrounding the place and just sitting on their arses for even longer than the 51 days

Sure, they could have pulled the tanks, armored carriers, and thousands of armed government agents back away from the compound and simply placed the area under surveillance with about a 1/10th the personnel.  Just apprehend all that comes out for food and eventually you will have them all.  Pretty easy if you ask me and low cost as well.

Yeah, some innocents died, but big farking deal.  shiat happens.

I'd bet you feel the same exact way when it is your kids that are killed.  Your disregard for human life is telling


It is not a disregard for human life.  It is simply not giving bent out of shape over the deaths of a bunch of people whom I did not know.  There is huge difference there.
 
2014-03-12 07:00:12 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Mock26: Nowhere have I said that the branchies deserved to die or that they should not have had their day in court. But, sch!tt happens, and this just happens to be one situation where the sch!tt was a really big one. I am just saying that I do not blame the government. I do not think that all the leaders were sitting around and on day 51 they all said, "Hey, do you know what would look great on TV? If we went in guns blazing and murdered a bunch of innocent women and children! Yeah, that would be freaking AWESOME!" Anyone who believes that or that they decided to skip the courts and the entire judicial system and deliberately killed them is the king of idiots. The federal agents made a decision to end the siege and apprehend the criminals. Those criminals chose to fight. And they died. Sometimes that happens. And this is one of those situations. The branchies have only themselves to blame. They broke the law. They decided on armed resistance. They could have avoided all of this by giving up on Day 1. Blame them for deciding they were above the law. Do not blame the federal agents for doing their job.

[img.fark.net image 500x271]

/now do you get it?


What parts of my post do you need a citation for?  The part about not saying that they should go in there and kill everyone?  Well, if you notice I prefaced that with "I do not think" which means that that is my opinion.  It is not a statement of fact.  The part about the federal agents deciding to end the siege?  Um, that is common knowledge.  They stormed the place.  Or do you deny that that happened?   Or maybe you need proof about the illegal firearms?
http://www.justice.gov/publications/waco/wacothirteen.html

There you go.  Now choke on a rooster and die.
 
2014-03-12 10:34:38 PM  

Mock26: It is not a disregard for human life.  It is simply not giving bent out of shape over the deaths of a bunch of people whom I did not know.


Not disregard?

Mockk26: Yeah, some innocents died, but big farking deal.

ummmm, yeah.
 
2014-03-13 01:21:07 AM  
I live less than a half an hour away from Fairfield.  The floaters are... interesting folks, to say the least.  We have groups come through every now and then, and I always feel a little awkward.  Not bad awkward, just that kind of awkward where people have beliefs I find weird and are open about them, and not in the way that I feel comfortable asking questions.

'tis a strange place, Fairfield.  Full of all sorts of little oddities.
 
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