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(WRAL)   After they spilled thousands of gallons of toxic waste into NC waterways, Duke Energy CEO tells NC residents that sure, the company COULD clean up all the polluted sites, but they are just gonna stick customers with the bill if they do   (wral.com) divider line 109
    More: Sick, North Carolina, executive directors, brownfield land, toxic wastes, WRAL News, McCrory, fly ashes, waterways  
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7382 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Mar 2014 at 7:37 PM (27 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-10 06:09:29 PM
Maybe they can pad the bill a little, and get the dividend up to 5%. They owe us for that $2 a share drop.
 
2014-03-10 06:35:01 PM
So torches and pitchforks in critically short supply in NC these days?
 
2014-03-10 06:36:11 PM
Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. Duke sucks.
 
2014-03-10 06:57:28 PM

Magorn: So torches and pitchforks in critically short supply in NC these days?


More like political willpower - the state is corrupt as hell. McCrory was a former Duke Energy guy and he and his cronies gutted the Department of Energy and Natural Resources. Oh and there's no state law for recalling a governor.

Don't look at me I voted for Dalton.
 
2014-03-10 07:17:48 PM

bdub77: Magorn: So torches and pitchforks in critically short supply in NC these days?

More like political willpower - the state is corrupt as hell. McCrory was a former Duke Energy guy and he and his cronies gutted the Department of Energy and Natural Resources. Oh and there's no state law for recalling a governor.

Don't look at me I voted for Dalton.


Ayup.

The News & Observer reported last week that the Department of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) had eliminated 13 percent of the staff positions from the Division of Water Resources only weeks after the coal spill was discovered.
 
2014-03-10 07:37:13 PM

fusillade762: bdub77: Magorn: So torches and pitchforks in critically short supply in NC these days?

More like political willpower - the state is corrupt as hell. McCrory was a former Duke Energy guy and he and his cronies gutted the Department of Energy and Natural Resources. Oh and there's no state law for recalling a governor.

Don't look at me I voted for Dalton.

Ayup.

The News & Observer reported last week that the Department of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) had eliminated 13 percent of the staff positions from the Division of Water Resources only weeks after the coal spill was discovered.


At that point they aren't even  tryingto pretend they are serving the people anymore, they are punishing the DENR for discovering the leak and telling them, in no uncertain terms "don't let it happen again"
 
2014-03-10 07:40:28 PM
Duke sucks?
 
2014-03-10 07:41:34 PM
Duh.

This is exactly what happens any time money is squeezed from a business for anything. They exist to make money. If they're losing money somewhere, they can either make it up somehow, or they can die.

Like it or not, that's the way shiat works.
 
2014-03-10 07:42:47 PM
Crime never pays.
 
2014-03-10 07:44:07 PM

JesseL: Duh.

This is exactly what happens any time money is squeezed from a business for anything. They exist to make money. If they're losing money somewhere, they can either make it up somehow, or they can die.

Like it or not, that's the way shiat works.


So confiscate their assets, fire/jail their executives and sell the rights to a company who will behave?

/yeah the sky is green in my world, a man can dream can't he?
 
2014-03-10 07:44:24 PM
You could hang them
 
2014-03-10 07:45:48 PM

JesseL: Duh.

This is exactly what happens any time money is squeezed from a business for anything. They exist to make money. If they're losing money somewhere, they can either make it up somehow, or they can die.

Like it or not, that's the way shiat works.


So what's your suggested alternative?  I'd go for some good ol public floggin' of the CEO down to the workers who were just following orders myself.
 
2014-03-10 07:51:38 PM

fusillade762: Privatize the profits and socialize the losses.


Don't socialize the losses.

Problem solved.
 
2014-03-10 07:51:47 PM

Magorn: fusillade762: bdub77: Magorn: So torches and pitchforks in critically short supply in NC these days?

More like political willpower - the state is corrupt as hell. McCrory was a former Duke Energy guy and he and his cronies gutted the Department of Energy and Natural Resources. Oh and there's no state law for recalling a governor.

Don't look at me I voted for Dalton.

Ayup.

The News & Observer reported last week that the Department of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) had eliminated 13 percent of the staff positions from the Division of Water Resources only weeks after the coal spill was discovered.

At that point they aren't even tryingto pretend they are serving the people anymore, they are punishing the DENR for discovering the leak and telling them, in no uncertain terms "don't let it happen again"


See, this is why we need complete deregulation, so that these sort of problems just disappear!
 
2014-03-10 07:52:57 PM
That's all kinds of messed up.
 
2014-03-10 07:53:06 PM
Libertarians rejoice! The invisible hand of the free market at work!
 
2014-03-10 07:56:45 PM
They were only polluting the waterways that the areas other energy providers were unable or unwilling to pollute.  We should be grateful to them and a service like that should most definitely not be free.
 
2014-03-10 07:58:03 PM

mutterfark: So confiscate their assets, fire/jail their executives and sell the rights to a company who will behave?

/yeah the sky is green in my world, a man can dream can't he?


BumpInTheNight: So what's your suggested alternative? I'd go for some good ol public floggin' of the CEO down to the workers who were just following orders myself.


Those are options. They'll have unintended consequences though. You may find yourself with certain markets that no business wants to service, or that the costs for whatever those businesses do is a lot higher than you'd expect, or that the service becomes a lot less efficient.

One way or another, if people want companies to act the way they want (ie, not dumping toxic waste into waterways); it's gonna cost.
 
2014-03-10 07:58:16 PM

drew46n2: Libertarians rejoice! The invisible hand of the free market at work!


Does proving you don't understand free market principles make a tent in your undies? Hint: state backed industries such as power and water are not free because they can't fail.
 
2014-03-10 07:58:35 PM
Runs off to buy stock in Caterpillar!
 
2014-03-10 07:59:06 PM
Yay capitalism!
 
2014-03-10 07:59:07 PM

Magorn: fusillade762: bdub77: Magorn: So torches and pitchforks in critically short supply in NC these days?

More like political willpower - the state is corrupt as hell. McCrory was a former Duke Energy guy and he and his cronies gutted the Department of Energy and Natural Resources. Oh and there's no state law for recalling a governor.

Don't look at me I voted for Dalton.

Ayup.

The News & Observer reported last week that the Department of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) had eliminated 13 percent of the staff positions from the Division of Water Resources only weeks after the coal spill was discovered.

At that point they aren't even  tryingto pretend they are serving the people anymore, they are punishing the DENR for discovering the leak and telling them, in no uncertain terms "don't let it happen again"


Yeah, the current head of DENR even referred to the companies they are supposed to regulate as "customers"
 
2014-03-10 08:03:48 PM
I understand the outrage, but to an extent I agree with this.  Coal provides financially cheap energy at a huge cost to both public health and environmental toxicology.  Unfortunately, most folks are either ignorant of those impacts, or choose to ignore them in favor of cheap electricity.  Passing on the financial costs of dealing with the effects of these severe impacts (again, on both humans and the environment) might be the wakeup call people need to stop supporting the farce that is "clean coal".
 
2014-03-10 08:06:29 PM
It can't be taken out of the hides of the executives, stockholders with more than 5% of shares, and members of the board?
Why not, O Preacher of Personal Responsibility?
 
2014-03-10 08:06:52 PM
Shocking
 
2014-03-10 08:07:22 PM
Company should be seized liquidated and the people in charge should be jailed.
 
2014-03-10 08:08:09 PM

JesseL: mutterfark: So confiscate their assets, fire/jail their executives and sell the rights to a company who will behave?

/yeah the sky is green in my world, a man can dream can't he?

BumpInTheNight: So what's your suggested alternative? I'd go for some good ol public floggin' of the CEO down to the workers who were just following orders myself.

Those are options. They'll have unintended consequences though. You may find yourself with certain markets that no business wants to service, or that the costs for whatever those businesses do is a lot higher than you'd expect, or that the service becomes a lot less efficient.

One way or another, if people want companies to act the way they want (ie, not dumping toxic waste into waterways); it's gonna cost.


Sure, hypothetically, I guess that's possible.

But in this actual case TFA says they had over a billion dollar profit. So, your make believe scenario is irrelevant.
 
2014-03-10 08:09:16 PM

mutterfark: JesseL: Duh.

This is exactly what happens any time money is squeezed from a business for anything. They exist to make money. If they're losing money somewhere, they can either make it up somehow, or they can die.

Like it or not, that's the way shiat works.

So confiscate their assets, fire/jail their executives and sell the rights to a company who will behave?

/yeah the sky is green in my world, a man can dream can't he?


I like the cut of your jib.
 
2014-03-10 08:09:30 PM

JesseL: Duh.

This is exactly what happens any time money is squeezed from a business for anything. They exist to make money. If they're losing money somewhere, they can either make it up somehow, or they can die.

Like it or not, that's the way shiat works.


Which is why a virtual monopoly like a utility company should not have easy ways for them to double-penalize everyone for their own f*ck ups.  The laws there intentionally allow these companies to recoup expenses for "environmental compliance", which is total bullsh*t.  If they don't feel they can operate with a profit while having even a modicum of environmental responsibility then they should close up shop and let someone who CAN do it.
 
2014-03-10 08:11:16 PM

juvandy: I understand the outrage, but to an extent I agree with this.  Coal provides financially cheap energy at a huge cost to both public health and environmental toxicology.  Unfortunately, most folks are either ignorant of those impacts, or choose to ignore them in favor of cheap electricity.  Passing on the financial costs of dealing with the effects of these severe impacts (again, on both humans and the environment) might be the wakeup call people need to stop supporting the farce that is "clean coal".


The costs of fossil fuels absolutely do need to be incorporated into their prices but this in no way justifies polluting public resources to pad shareholders' pockets or absolves Duke's execs of culpability.
 
2014-03-10 08:11:41 PM
Utility companies should not be private to begin with. That is the real problem.
 
2014-03-10 08:12:10 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: It can't be taken out of the hides of the executives, stockholders with more than 5% of shares, and members of the board?
Why not, O Preacher of Personal Responsibility?


Even if you can pierce the corporate veil and do that, you don't think those people will just see to it that they get some extra compensation from the corporate coffers and make up the difference from their customers again?
 
2014-03-10 08:14:15 PM

CruJones: Duke sucks?


-1 since Subby didn't include this.
 
2014-03-10 08:14:32 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: It can't be taken out of the hides of the executives, stockholders with more than 5% of shares, and members of the board?
Why not, O Preacher of Personal Responsibility?


Because how can you expect companies to attract and retain top level executive talent if you start punishing them for mistakes?
 
2014-03-10 08:14:55 PM
You know what?  Good, fark them.  They're the idiots who voted in the Republicans who allowed this spill and protect Duke.

fark the residents of NC.
 
2014-03-10 08:15:15 PM

Let's hear it for the lubed fist of the free market!

Privatize profits, socialize losses, and there's not a damned thing you can do about it - the government agency that should be regulating them is a toothless, emasculated thing, practically owned by the companies themselves, and the deregulation push over the last three and a half decades means that customers are little more than annoyances, and their woes are simply the chorus to the Greek tragedy enjoyed by the rich folks who profit from such companies.

The sad part is that, of course, it's hard to feel sympathy for the 300,000+ folks suffering as a result of the repeated spills, because those assholes are the same folks that cheer on the lubed fist of the free market. They're the ones demanding cheap energy, even at their own risk, and shaking their political torches & pitchforks at the folks who spent years telling these assholes that environmental and social harm is part of that risk. "DOWN WITH BIG GUV'MINT!" is a lovely populist mating call, until you can't friggin' drink the water or breathe the air any more - then, suddenly, that's where these folks start screaming about how "GUV'MINT LET THIS HAPPEN!" They're the ones that voted in the politicians who helped these companies emasculate the agency that could've prevented it from happening, because the politicians knew how to shout "DOWN WITH BIG GUV'MINT!" to get into office and cash those company checks. These assholes not only allowed, but encouraged, this result, so to then hear their weeping and wailing because their water stinks and their power company stinks and their state government stinks, just makes me want to dopeslap them and say, "well, what are you going to do about it?"

tl;dr: The inevitable result occurred, and both providers & consumers are damned for it.
 
2014-03-10 08:16:55 PM
Did anyone RTFA? The cost of the cleanup itself will come from profits.

If the government changes the regulations to make them move the rest of the coal ash, that work might (will) get billed back to the ratepayers.

/not white-knighting, just all about factual accuracy
 
2014-03-10 08:18:00 PM
wesmon: Utility companies should not be private to begin with. That is the real problem.

QFT. The idea that water, power, and sanitation should be for-profit private enterprises is a difficult thing to contemplate - at best, licensed and tightly regulated, and at worst, nationalized.
 
2014-03-10 08:19:12 PM

JesseL:
One way or another, if people want companies to act the way they want (ie, not dumping toxic waste into waterways); it's gonna cost.

"See, we can do whatever we like and if we misbehave you gotta pay us to stop."

Oh do please come to California and tell us that.
When you get out of prison you can stay at the mission downtown.

And to answer your next question: Yes we are running a surplus. Thanks for asking
 
2014-03-10 08:19:24 PM

SDRR: JesseL: mutterfark: So confiscate their assets, fire/jail their executives and sell the rights to a company who will behave?

/yeah the sky is green in my world, a man can dream can't he?

BumpInTheNight: So what's your suggested alternative? I'd go for some good ol public floggin' of the CEO down to the workers who were just following orders myself.

Those are options. They'll have unintended consequences though. You may find yourself with certain markets that no business wants to service, or that the costs for whatever those businesses do is a lot higher than you'd expect, or that the service becomes a lot less efficient.

One way or another, if people want companies to act the way they want (ie, not dumping toxic waste into waterways); it's gonna cost.

Sure, hypothetically, I guess that's possible.

But in this actual case TFA says they had over a billion dollar profit. So, your make believe scenario is irrelevant.


It doesn't matter. You take money from a business, the business is going to figure a way to get it back.

If you block every way they could possibly recoup their loss, they'll start cutting their expenditures - innocent people will get layed off, or customers will get less service, or their suppliers will be squeezed for lower profits, etc.

It's a law of nature. Trying to effectively penalize a business without the real hurt getting passed on to someone else never ever works. Wishful thinking won't change it.

You've got to accept that businesses have no ethics of their own and if you want to make them act better the only thing that works is to pay them to do it.

I don't like it either.
 
2014-03-10 08:21:52 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: The costs of fossil fuels absolutely do need to be incorporated into their prices but this in no way justifies polluting public resources to pad shareholders' pockets or absolves Duke's execs of culpability.


I never said that it did.  My point is that the public is equally culpable for the toxicological effects because they demand cheap electricity at the cost of all else.  The executives should absolutely be held accountable for their actions directly causing this disaster, but the public cannot ignore it's indirect role.
 
2014-03-10 08:23:34 PM

bonkmeist: Magorn: fusillade762: bdub77: Magorn: So torches and pitchforks in critically short supply in NC these days?

More like political willpower - the state is corrupt as hell. McCrory was a former Duke Energy guy and he and his cronies gutted the Department of Energy and Natural Resources. Oh and there's no state law for recalling a governor.

Don't look at me I voted for Dalton.

Ayup.

The News & Observer reported last week that the Department of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) had eliminated 13 percent of the staff positions from the Division of Water Resources only weeks after the coal spill was discovered.

At that point they aren't even  tryingto pretend they are serving the people anymore, they are punishing the DENR for discovering the leak and telling them, in no uncertain terms "don't let it happen again"

Yeah, the current head of DENR even referred to the companies they are supposed to regulate as "customers"


Yea, that's not good.  Regulators and those they regulate should have an amicable enough  relationship so that they can work together, but ultimately it's adversarial.  When they get too buddy/buddy it's time to replace the regulators.

If they are charged with maintaining clean drinking water then their customers are the people that drink that water.
 
2014-03-10 08:26:22 PM

pdieten: Did anyone RTFA? The cost of the cleanup itself will come from profits.

If the government changes the regulations to make them move the rest of the coal ash, that work might (will) get billed back to the ratepayers.

/not white-knighting, just all about factual accuracy


Further down in the article the author mentions that this state government is particularly likely to allow the company to recoup its losses in the form of rate increases.

Your glass house must have a hell of a view.
 
2014-03-10 08:27:37 PM

pdieten: Did anyone RTFA? The cost of the cleanup itself will come from profits.

If the government changes the regulations to make them move the rest of the coal ash, that work might (will) get billed back to the ratepayers.

/not white-knighting, just all about factual accuracy




Makes perfect sense since the customers are the ones who put the ash ponds next to the water supplies.
 
2014-03-10 08:28:28 PM

JesseL: SDRR: JesseL: mutterfark: So confiscate their assets, fire/jail their executives and sell the rights to a company who will behave?

/yeah the sky is green in my world, a man can dream can't he?

BumpInTheNight: So what's your suggested alternative? I'd go for some good ol public floggin' of the CEO down to the workers who were just following orders myself.

Those are options. They'll have unintended consequences though. You may find yourself with certain markets that no business wants to service, or that the costs for whatever those businesses do is a lot higher than you'd expect, or that the service becomes a lot less efficient.

One way or another, if people want companies to act the way they want (ie, not dumping toxic waste into waterways); it's gonna cost.

Sure, hypothetically, I guess that's possible.

But in this actual case TFA says they had over a billion dollar profit. So, your make believe scenario is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter. You take money from a business, the business is going to figure a way to get it back.

If you block every way they could possibly recoup their loss, they'll start cutting their expenditures - innocent people will get layed off, or customers will get less service, or their suppliers will be squeezed for lower profits, etc.

It's a law of nature. Trying to effectively penalize a business without the real hurt getting passed on to someone else never ever works. Wishful thinking won't change it.

You've got to accept that businesses have no ethics of their own and if you want to make them act better the only thing that works is to pay them to do it.

I don't like it either.


So just give up and fork over more money then?  Businesses can be held liable for the their damages, the problem here is that NC state laws and government let them run rampant all over the place.

There are plenty of companies that do good things without bilking the customers for the cost.  Utility companies just happen to be one of the worst offenders in terms of environmental damage, so they tend to be jerks about it.
 
2014-03-10 08:30:55 PM

tinyarena: JesseL:
One way or another, if people want companies to act the way they want (ie, not dumping toxic waste into waterways); it's gonna cost.
"See, we can do whatever we like and if we misbehave you gotta pay us to stop."

Oh do please come to California and tell us that.
When you get out of prison you can stay at the mission downtown.

And to answer your next question: Yes we are running a surplus. Thanks for asking


Surplus of what, inmates?
 
2014-03-10 08:31:14 PM

JesseL: demaL-demaL-yeH: It can't be taken out of the hides of the executives, stockholders with more than 5% of shares, and members of the board?
Why not, O Preacher of Personal Responsibility?

Even if you can pierce the corporate veil and do that, you don't think those people will just see to it that they get some extra compensation from the corporate coffers and make up the difference from their customers again?


When the corporate veil consists of Chobham, it's long past time to make a few changes. It might be a Very Good Thing(TM) to ensure that major shareholders, the executives, and the directors all have skin in the game.
Capping total executive compensation at a multiple of that of the lowest-compensated employee should be on the table, too.
 
2014-03-10 08:33:41 PM

MyRandomName: drew46n2: Libertarians rejoice! The invisible hand of the free market at work!

Does proving you don't understand free market principles make a tent in your undies? Hint: state backed industries such as power and water are not free because they can't fail.


Yes, they can't fail and leave the states people from holding the bag like Freedom Industries in West Virginia (oh wait a minute).
 
2014-03-10 08:34:16 PM

vudukungfu: You could hang them


Yeah...I wish.
 
2014-03-10 08:34:57 PM
McCrory and the GOP corporatist whores and the Jesus freaks and the Teahadists can go Fark themselves on a hot rusty serrated pitchfork coasted in Ebola.

The same goes for the assholes who voted for them that get suckered by the BSABSVR, but most of all FARK MIKE EASLEY AND MEG SCOTT PHIPPS AND THE REST OF THE CORRUPT DEMOCRATS WHO LED THE IDIOTS TO VOTE FOR THESE ASSHOLES. THANKS FOR CONVINCING PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR THE ASSHOLES WHO ARE FAR MORE EFFICIENT AT RUNNING THIS STATE AT FULL SPEED BACK INTO THE 1870S.

/I'm drunk, and I'm pissed at my state "govern"ment
 
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