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(Pajiba)   How True Detective dropped the ball   (pajiba.com) divider line 213
    More: Followup, True Detective, ruckus, Twin Peaks, first paragraph, production schedule, buddy cop, Maggie, Marty  
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4613 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 10 Mar 2014 at 12:52 PM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-10 11:03:09 AM
God, I can't disagree more. That was a beautiful finale.
 
2014-03-10 11:09:35 AM
BUT THEY NEVER ANSWERED HOW THE DHARMA INITIATIVE WAS FUNDED
 
2014-03-10 11:16:04 AM

kronicfeld: BUT THEY NEVER ANSWERED HOW THE DHARMA INITIATIVE WAS FUNDED


Tuttle Ministries financed it.
 
2014-03-10 11:20:12 AM

naughtyrev: Tuttle Ministries financed it.


BUT WHERE DID TUTTLE'S MONEY COME FROM AND FURTHERMORE
 
2014-03-10 11:40:04 AM
Yes, it turns out, they were ornamentation: Boobs and pink panties and sexual conquests and doormats with which the ultimate male heroes could step upon and exploit

That is some estrogen soaked butthurt right there.  Jesus Christ, go make your own damn TV show.
 
2014-03-10 11:42:54 AM
The author of this screed clearly doesn't realize that this was just "season one".
 
2014-03-10 11:46:39 AM

DamnYankees: God, I can't disagree more. That was a beautiful finale.


And it set up next season very nicely.  We'll likely find out that Gilbough and Papania planted a tracking device on Marty's car, like any good detective would do.  I'd also love to see a follow-up on who liked Rust for the murders.
 
2014-03-10 11:47:56 AM

Marcus Aurelius: DamnYankees: God, I can't disagree more. That was a beautiful finale.

And it set up next season very nicely.  We'll likely find out that Gilbough and Papania planted a tracking device on Marty's car, like any good detective would do.  I'd also love to see a follow-up on who liked Rust for the murders.


Not sure if serious.
 
2014-03-10 11:50:42 AM

kronicfeld: Marcus Aurelius: DamnYankees: God, I can't disagree more. That was a beautiful finale.

And it set up next season very nicely.  We'll likely find out that Gilbough and Papania planted a tracking device on Marty's car, like any good detective would do.  I'd also love to see a follow-up on who liked Rust for the murders.

Not sure if serious.


Is there no next season?  When did this happen?
 
2014-03-10 11:55:57 AM

Marcus Aurelius: kronicfeld: Marcus Aurelius: DamnYankees: God, I can't disagree more. That was a beautiful finale.

And it set up next season very nicely.  We'll likely find out that Gilbough and Papania planted a tracking device on Marty's car, like any good detective would do.  I'd also love to see a follow-up on who liked Rust for the murders.

Not sure if serious.

Is there no next season?  When did this happen?


It's going to be an anthology show. Next season won't have any relationship with this one. Or at least won't share the cast and characters.
 
2014-03-10 11:59:50 AM

kronicfeld: Marcus Aurelius: kronicfeld: Marcus Aurelius: DamnYankees: God, I can't disagree more. That was a beautiful finale.

And it set up next season very nicely.  We'll likely find out that Gilbough and Papania planted a tracking device on Marty's car, like any good detective would do.  I'd also love to see a follow-up on who liked Rust for the murders.

Not sure if serious.

Is there no next season?  When did this happen?

It's going to be an anthology show. Next season won't have any relationship with this one. Or at least won't share the cast and characters.


That's going to be a tough segue.  I thought we'd see the same geography with new monsters.
 
2014-03-10 12:15:57 PM
I think the article hit the nail on the head. The show failed the Checkov's Gun test on several levels.

And the critics were right who said women on the show were window dressing to satisfy the HBO required boobs per episode quota; nothing more.
 
2014-03-10 12:18:31 PM

Marcus Aurelius: That's going to be a tough segue.


It's worked fine for American Horror Story so far.
 
2014-03-10 12:19:51 PM

Marcus Aurelius: That's going to be a tough segue. I thought we'd see the same geography with new monsters.


It's not. Totally different cast, setting and plot with presumably only the same theme. This season was a complete package.

Does that change your perspective at all?
 
2014-03-10 12:21:01 PM
Am I the only one who felt that the music that started playing when Marty's family was visiting him in the hospital had an extremely ominous feeling to it?
 
2014-03-10 12:22:27 PM

gilgigamesh: Marcus Aurelius: That's going to be a tough segue. I thought we'd see the same geography with new monsters.

It's not. Totally different cast, setting and plot with presumably only the same theme. This season was a complete package.

Does that change your perspective at all?


No, not really.  It was a great ride while it lasted.
 
2014-03-10 12:22:56 PM

naughtyrev: Am I the only one who felt that the music that started playing when Marty's family was visiting him in the hospital had an extremely ominous feeling to it?


Nope; not at all. I heard that music and thought, "Oh boy, here it comes..." and then the scene moved on to the conclusion; the end.

I was baffled by the whole thing.
 
2014-03-10 12:23:10 PM

Shostie: Marcus Aurelius: That's going to be a tough segue.

It's worked fine for American Horror Story so far.


Never heard of it.
 
2014-03-10 12:24:27 PM

gilgigamesh: I think the article hit the nail on the head. The show failed the Checkov's Gun test on several levels.


I'll repeat the comment I wrote on TFA. Checkob's Gun is  an aesthetic preference, nothing more. It's not a rule that must be follows.

That's what makes TV different from movies and books. Movies and books are contained, and therefore are 'supposed' to have something of a laser focus.

A TV show isn't like that. So why are we applying the same rules? I don't believe economy of storytelling should apply to TV at all, honestly. Your review here actually reminds me of Lost. Both critiques (of Lost in general and this critique of TD) hinge on the idea that its a failure if a TV show introduces a concept or a question and fails to answer it. I just flat out reject that entire premise. TV shows don't need to work that way; some TV shows are just explorations of a world, and along the way we get tons of hints about things that are out of our reach. And I love that. I don't need to know what the meaning behind Carcosa and The Yellow King are; what I need to know is that the meaning of those things mattered to someone in the show. And it clearly did. The people behind these murders were clearly enamored with these tropes. Done. What else do I need to know about it?

I have no problem with TV shows sprinkling in extra details which they don't 'pay off', because I don't think that 'paying them off' was ever the purpose of introducing them in the first place.
 
2014-03-10 12:27:13 PM
"This show did not live up to my fevered imaginations of what symbolism means, therefore it failed.

Also, I've been utterly programmed by terrible writers to believe that everything good must have a 'twist'.

Now excuse me while I expound on the various meanings of coffee mugs and post literary expositions I copied from Wikipedia."
 
2014-03-10 12:28:22 PM

DamnYankees: I have no problem with TV shows sprinkling in extra details which they don't 'pay off', because I don't think that 'paying them off' was ever the purpose of introducing them in the first place


It made the series exceptionally rich.
 
2014-03-10 12:28:47 PM
Can we try to focus on the actual substance of this show a little? How farking amazing was McConaghey in that last scene? Dear Christ, broke my heart.
 
2014-03-10 12:30:27 PM

DamnYankees: Can we try to focus on the actual substance of this show a little? How farking amazing was McConaghey in that last scene? Dear Christ, broke my heart.


It completed the circle of his internal conflict like the icing on an exceptionally good cake.
 
2014-03-10 12:30:42 PM

DamnYankees: gilgigamesh: I think the article hit the nail on the head. The show failed the Checkov's Gun test on several levels.

I'll repeat the comment I wrote on TFA. Checkob's Gun is  an aesthetic preference, nothing more. It's not a rule that must be follows.

That's what makes TV different from movies and books. Movies and books are contained, and therefore are 'supposed' to have something of a laser focus.

A TV show isn't like that. So why are we applying the same rules? I don't believe economy of storytelling should apply to TV at all, honestly. Your review here actually reminds me of Lost. Both critiques (of Lost in general and this critique of TD) hinge on the idea that its a failure if a TV show introduces a concept or a question and fails to answer it. I just flat out reject that entire premise. TV shows don't need to work that way; some TV shows are just explorations of a world, and along the way we get tons of hints about things that are out of our reach. And I love that. I don't need to know what the meaning behind Carcosa and The Yellow King are; what I need to know is that the meaning of those things mattered to someone in the show. And it clearly did. The people behind these murders were clearly enamored with these tropes. Done. What else do I need to know about it?

I have no problem with TV shows sprinkling in extra details which they don't 'pay off', because I don't think that 'paying them off' was ever the purpose of introducing them in the first place.


I actually agree with you about shows like Lost. I was one of the few people who eschewed criticism of the show on that basis.

But this show wasn't Lost. The article points out that Checkov's Gun isn't properly applicable to serialized TV like Lost where the writers have an open long term commitment and are forced to wing it to a certain degree. That I get.

I think the difference here is that this show wasn't bound by those restrictions. It was free to be more literary; which is what I and apparently the author of tfa and many others were expecting it to be.

Now maybe I read more into the show than it was. Maybe it was never meant to be literary, and it was intended as nothing more than an 8 hour movie with a standard fight the bad guy ending. That doesn't change the fact that it had the unique opportunity to be much more, and failed to take it.

And to that end, I am disappointed.
 
2014-03-10 12:32:30 PM

gilgigamesh: I think the difference here is that this show wasn't bound by those restrictions. It was free to be more literary; which is what I and apparently the author of tfa and many others were expecting it to be.


I don't disagree with this, but again I fail to see the issue. What was not literary about it? Again, Checkhov's gun is not some rule that must be followed.

And even if you grant that it is a rule, I don't see how TD failed to live up to it. What plot point was introduced and then dropped? I can't think of anything.
 
2014-03-10 12:32:40 PM

Marcus Aurelius: kronicfeld: Marcus Aurelius: kronicfeld: Marcus Aurelius: DamnYankees: God, I can't disagree more. That was a beautiful finale.

And it set up next season very nicely.  We'll likely find out that Gilbough and Papania planted a tracking device on Marty's car, like any good detective would do.  I'd also love to see a follow-up on who liked Rust for the murders.

Not sure if serious.

Is there no next season?  When did this happen?

It's going to be an anthology show. Next season won't have any relationship with this one. Or at least won't share the cast and characters.

That's going to be a tough segue.  I thought we'd see the same geography with new monsters.


From an interview with Alan Sepinwall:
I don't know where you are in working on season 2, but has any of the reaction to this season informed what you're doing with the next?

Nic Pizzolatto: It's informed exactly one thing. It's that I realize I need to keep being strange. Don't play the next one straight.

Can you tell me anything at all about season 2?

Nic Pizzolatto: Okay. This is really early, but I'll tell you (it's about) hard women, bad men and the secret occult history of the United States transportation system.

The interview also explains the Spaghetti Monster's British accent.
 
2014-03-10 12:33:25 PM

gilgigamesh: Maybe it was never meant to be literary, and it was intended as nothing more than an 8 hour movie with a standard fight the bad guy ending.


Also, if you feel like that final sequence was a "standard fight the bad guy ending", I don't know what to say. That was an incredible sequence, both textually and subtextually.
 
2014-03-10 12:34:00 PM

JerseyTim: Nic Pizzolatto: Okay. This is really early, but I'll tell you (it's about) hard women, bad men and the secret occult history of the United States transportation system.


I thought Pizzolatto was joking here. Secret occult history of the transportation system?
 
2014-03-10 12:35:05 PM

DamnYankees: I thought Pizzolatto was joking here. Secret occult history of the transportation system?


i.imgflip.com
 
2014-03-10 12:35:19 PM

gilgigamesh: it had the unique opportunity to be much more, and failed to take it


So they either needed to cut a whole lot out or put a whole lot more in?

I'm pretty sure I loved the whole series exactly the way it was.  It had a rich texture you don't get from something that passes various purity tests.
 
2014-03-10 12:37:29 PM

Pocket Ninja: "This show did not live up to my fevered imaginations of what symbolism means, therefore it failed.

Also, I've been utterly programmed by terrible writers to believe that everything good must have a 'twist'.

Now excuse me while I expound on the various meanings of coffee mugs and post literary expositions I copied from Wikipedia."


If you read the thread from yesterday, I opined there was no way the show could disappoint me with the ending. I wasn't expecting a twist ending. I was wrong.

I now realize they did get the main bad guy, that the actual Tuttle clan were only disciples, so my disappointment will probably be mitigated on re-watching. You know how I realized it? Reading a fark thread this morning. I shouldn't have to glean the resolution of the climax by reading about it later. You could assume I am an idiot who wasn't paying attention, but I am among many who said more or less the same thing.

A well told story would have made it more clear in the actual farking episode who was doing what.
 
2014-03-10 12:37:47 PM
I thought the scene in Carcosa was as tense as anything I've ever seen. The house was also incredible creepy. Watching the killer fingerbang his half sister was also pretty goddamn disturbing.

I loved the show and thought the ending was fitting. No problems with what they put out there. I'd just like to know why they hinted at so much with Audrey.
 
2014-03-10 12:39:26 PM

gilgigamesh: I now realize they did get the main bad guy, that the actual Tuttle clan were only disciples, so my disappointment will probably be mitigated on re-watching.


They did? Where are you getting this from? I didn't get anything in the show that said Errol was the "main bad guy". He was just the one who they could get.

It actually seems clear to me, by implication, that Errol was relatively low on the totem pole, and was just following the cult of his elders. But by now they are all dead and gone, and he is all that's left.
 
2014-03-10 12:41:18 PM

JerseyTim: I'd just like to know why they hinted at so much with Audrey


I saw it as Marty's continuing alienation from his family, that culminated in the hospital bed with him realizing how badly he's farked up his life.
 
2014-03-10 12:41:22 PM

DamnYankees: They did? Where are you getting this from? I didn't get anything in the show that said Errol was the "main bad guy". He was just the one who they could get.


He called them acolytes. His reference to Rust as a "little priest" suggested that sort of air about him as well.
 
2014-03-10 12:41:28 PM

DamnYankees: gilgigamesh: Maybe it was never meant to be literary, and it was intended as nothing more than an 8 hour movie with a standard fight the bad guy ending.

Also, if you feel like that final sequence was a "standard fight the bad guy ending", I don't know what to say. That was an incredible sequence, both textually and subtextually.


From the minute Rust entered Carcosa I knew it would end with a big fight where he would get killed. One of the good guys had to survive in order to resolve the story, so the only question was whether Rust would die or not.

So believe it or not, I was bored. Instead of being suspenseful, it was 20 minutes of waiting for them to get to the point I knew was coming.
 
2014-03-10 12:42:25 PM
Sorry, that should have read;




From the minute Rust entered Carcosa I knew it would end with a big fight where he Childress would get killed
 
2014-03-10 12:43:08 PM

DamnYankees: They did? Where are you getting this from? I didn't get anything in the show that said Errol was the "main bad guy". He was just the one who they could get.


They actually stated it outright that they didn't get them all.  There were seven masked men in the film, and only four of them are accounted for.
 
2014-03-10 12:43:21 PM

Pocket Ninja: He called them acolytes. His reference to Rust as a "little priest" suggested that sort of air about him as well.


Well yeah, he's insane. And he's the only one that's left, so he probably sees himself as being the one who took on the mantle. I don't see any reason to believe that this guy, who we know was just a child when all this started, was actually the leader of this group.
 
2014-03-10 12:43:40 PM
FTFA " it's something as random as the color of a painted house - something never introduced into the story before - that allowed Cohle and Hart to crack the case"

Uuuum, not true.  They made a point of showing Colhe taking the picture in a previous episode.
 
2014-03-10 12:43:51 PM

gilgigamesh: One of the good guys had to survive in order to resolve the story, so the only question was whether Rust would die or not.


That was the only real surprise for me in the finale, which I thought was excellent through and through. But I did start the episode with the firm belief that Rust would not survive, either because of being killed or because he chose to kill himself. I'm not mad he lived, but it wasn't the ending I'd been expecting in that regard.
 
2014-03-10 12:45:11 PM

DamnYankees: gilgigamesh: I now realize they did get the main bad guy, that the actual Tuttle clan were only disciples, so my disappointment will probably be mitigated on re-watching.

They did? Where are you getting this from? I didn't get anything in the show that said Errol was the "main bad guy". He was just the one who they could get.

It actually seems clear to me, by implication, that Errol was relatively low on the totem pole, and was just following the cult of his elders. But by now they are all dead and gone, and he is all that's left.


Well, apparently that was wrong. He was the big bad guy, who referred to the powerful Tuttles as "acolytes". TWIST!

I didn't get that either, because they didn't really explain that fairly important fact very well. Now maybe you see my point.
 
2014-03-10 12:45:12 PM

Pocket Ninja: That was the only real surprise for me in the finale, which I thought was excellent through and through. But I did start the episode with the firm belief that Rust would not survive, either because of being killed or because he chose to kill himself. I'm not mad he lived, but it wasn't the ending I'd been expecting in that regard.


I found it interesting that Pizzolatto, in his interview with Sepinwall, stated that the entire core of the whole story was that it would end with Rust turning a little more optimistic, and that everything was sort of built on that - Rust starts of nihilist, and by the end he's 5% more optimistic than he was before. So thematically it makes sense.
 
2014-03-10 12:46:01 PM

Pocket Ninja: gilgigamesh: One of the good guys had to survive in order to resolve the story, so the only question was whether Rust would die or not.

That was the only real surprise for me in the finale, which I thought was excellent through and through. But I did start the episode with the firm belief that Rust would not survive, either because of being killed or because he chose to kill himself. I'm not mad he lived, but it wasn't the ending I'd been expecting in that regard.


I was extremely surprised when Rust lived.  I fully expected him to die in Carcosa.  But he got dragged back to hell instead.
 
2014-03-10 12:46:11 PM

gilgigamesh: Well, apparently that was wrong. He was the big bad guy, who referred to the powerful Tuttles as "acolytes". TWIST!

I didn't get that either, because they didn't really explain that fairly important fact very well. Now maybe you see my point.


I don't see your point at all. True Detective isn't a story about the inner workings of a death cult. It's a story about 2 people who are detectives. The hierarchy of the cult is pretty irrelevant to the point of the story.
 
2014-03-10 12:47:18 PM

DamnYankees: Pocket Ninja: He called them acolytes. His reference to Rust as a "little priest" suggested that sort of air about him as well.

Well yeah, he's insane. And he's the only one that's left, so he probably sees himself as being the one who took on the mantle. I don't see any reason to believe that this guy, who we know was just a child when all this started, was actually the leader of this group.


Now you are the one reading your own interpretation into the story. Pizzolatto was very clear that what you saw was what you get.
 
2014-03-10 12:49:19 PM

DamnYankees: gilgigamesh: Well, apparently that was wrong. He was the big bad guy, who referred to the powerful Tuttles as "acolytes". TWIST!

I didn't get that either, because they didn't really explain that fairly important fact very well. Now maybe you see my point.

I don't see your point at all. True Detective isn't a story about the inner workings of a death cult. It's a story about 2 people who are detectives. The hierarchy of the cult is pretty irrelevant to the point of the story.


I think if you walk away from the story without knowing who the actual bad guy was, as I (and apparently you) did, the writers didn't do their job.
 
2014-03-10 12:50:04 PM
If you looked forward to watching the next episode, and enjoyed the process of paying attention to the series throughout, then it was a good show for you.

I can't help but think a lot of the butthurt is masked grief for the season's inevitable end.
 
2014-03-10 12:52:57 PM

gilgigamesh: if you walk away from the story without knowing who the actual bad guy was, as I (and apparently you) did, the writers didn't do their job


There were 7 men on the video and only 4 are accounted for.  There's more loose ends in this series than a Rastafarian wearing cut-offs.
 
2014-03-10 12:55:53 PM
One final point before I have to go get some actual work done:

How the hell does Rust's epiphany that "light is winning" -- or the story, for that matter -- make any sense if they got the lowest man on the totem pole? That's exactly what happened 15 years before when they took out LeDeux, which prompted Cohle's 15 year obsession with finding the real bad guys.

His change of heart only makes sense if he got his man. That's why I say that fact should have been much clearer.
 
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