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(Boston Herald)   So you're telling me I can eat all the bacon I want and they won't have to cut my chest open to fix me?   (bostonherald.com) divider line 36
    More: Cool, shortness of breath, coronary disease, angioplasty, coronary artery disease  
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3358 clicks; posted to Geek » on 10 Mar 2014 at 10:43 AM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



36 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-03-10 09:17:13 AM  
UK bacon - note small rind, large pork   upload.wikimedia.org

Compare to US bacon where opposite is true   bacolicious.s3.amazonaws.com
No wonder there is so much panic
 
2014-03-10 09:49:27 AM  
This article is misleading. What these doctors are doing is not new nor uncommon. We open chronic total occlusions regularly using standard techniques and the techniques alluded to in the story--and have been doing so for years! And it is in no way a substitute for bypass--just a different option. But hey, y'all eat all the bacon you want--I have another kid to put through college.
 
2014-03-10 10:55:48 AM  
Bacon trifecta in play?

Oh wait, I'm just thinking about the grilled cheese thread and imagined bacon.....
 
2014-03-10 11:05:19 AM  
Because stents are so worth it? (Which this new proc is said to be "more intricate than")
 
2014-03-10 11:09:18 AM  
No I'm telling you as a cost saving measure we're going to have your surgery performed by Bonzo The Balloon Animal Clown.  Don't worry we subcontracted him from Balloon Bouquet, the are known for their artistry and the quality of their sing-o-grams.
 
2014-03-10 11:24:56 AM  
Bacon is not the reason your arteries are clogged with goo.
 
2014-03-10 11:27:47 AM  

colinspooky: UK bacon - note small rind, large pork   [upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]

Compare to US bacon where opposite is true   [bacolicious.s3.amazonaws.com image 698x382]
No wonder there is so much panic


Streaky bacon is superior bacon.
 
M-G
2014-03-10 11:31:22 AM  

Deedeemarz: This article is misleading. What these doctors are doing is not new nor uncommon. We open chronic total occlusions regularly using standard techniques and the techniques alluded to in the story--and have been doing so for years! And it is in no way a substitute for bypass--just a different option. But hey, y'all eat all the bacon you want--I have another kid to put through college.


It was certainly light on details.  So what is the technique for a total occlusion?
 
2014-03-10 11:31:46 AM  
This can't be true.  Wasn't Massachusetts the first state to have that "socialist" medicine?  How can they innovate anything?
 
2014-03-10 12:11:30 PM  
Bypass isn't used so much for complete blockages, but rather when the entirety of an artery is complete shiat. Such is why bypass is usually superior in diabetics as all of their arteries are crap and there isn't a single blockage that is easily stentable.
 
2014-03-10 12:13:07 PM  
This reminds me that I need to go have some bacon. I missed my dosage earlier.
 
2014-03-10 12:36:18 PM  
Or you could just take bromelain.  It's a natural enzyme that when taken on an empty stomach, dissolves fibrin in veins and arteries, which is the binding material of all plaque.  It's already been proven in rabbits and the chemicals involved are identical in humans.

i59.tinypic.com
 
2014-03-10 12:55:52 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Bacon is not the reason your arteries are clogged with goo.


Came here to say this.
 
2014-03-10 01:36:13 PM  
Angioplasty and stints seem like crude solutions.  They basically mash the crud up against the artery walls, right?  What we need is the equivalent of a plumber's snake and a shop vac to catch the pieces so they don't can't travel downstream and block other arteries.

Bring on the nanobot artery scrubbers!
 
2014-03-10 02:29:29 PM  

colinspooky: UK bacon - note small rind, large pork   [upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]


In America we call those "pork chops".
 
2014-03-10 02:45:42 PM  

arcas: Angioplasty and stints seem like crude solutions.  They basically mash the crud up against the artery walls, right?  What we need is the equivalent of a plumber's snake and a shop vac to catch the pieces so they don't can't travel downstream and block other arteries.

Bring on the nanobot artery scrubbers!


I just gave you the name of an enzyme that does this.
 
2014-03-10 03:14:53 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: bromelain


So you inject that right into your veins?

/don't think you quite grasp physiology or peer-reviewed science.
 
2014-03-10 03:27:07 PM  

arcas: Angioplasty and stints seem like crude solutions.  They basically mash the crud up against the artery walls, right?  What we need is the equivalent of a plumber's snake and a shop vac to catch the pieces so they don't can't travel downstream and block other arteries.

Bring on the nanobot artery scrubbers!


I'm waiting for those as well.

/also, if they can temporarily harden my skin into a bullet-resistant armor plating, or increase my strength 10-fold, that'd be great too
//maximum armor
 
2014-03-10 04:25:38 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Or you could just take bromelain.  It's a natural enzyme that when taken on an empty stomach, dissolves fibrin in veins and arteries, which is the binding material of all plaque.  It's already been proven in rabbits and the chemicals involved are identical in humans.

[i59.tinypic.com image 300x300]


Bullshiat hippy snake oil salesman-like typing detected! The only proven use for bromelain is as an anti-inflammatory for arthritis.
 
2014-03-10 04:41:54 PM  

That Guy Jeff: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Or you could just take bromelain.  It's a natural enzyme that when taken on an empty stomach, dissolves fibrin in veins and arteries, which is the binding material of all plaque.  It's already been proven in rabbits and the chemicals involved are identical in humans.

[i59.tinypic.com image 300x300]

Bullshiat hippy snake oil salesman-like typing detected! The only proven use for bromelain is as an anti-inflammatory for arthritis.


I'm not selling anything.  Bromelain breaks down fibrin, which is what holds all the shiat clogging your arteries in place.  Take bromelain on an empty stomach and quite a bit passes into your blood stream.  There was a study done with rabbits, and the chemistry involved is identical to humans, fibrin is fibrin, bromelain is bromelain.  I get it though, you'd rather let your arteries get clogged, have expensive surgery, then take expensive medicine than take something known to be a cure, and costs like $5.  Shillbots gotta shill after all.
 
2014-03-10 04:54:52 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: That Guy Jeff: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Or you could just take bromelain.  It's a natural enzyme that when taken on an empty stomach, dissolves fibrin in veins and arteries, which is the binding material of all plaque.  It's already been proven in rabbits and the chemicals involved are identical in humans.

[i59.tinypic.com image 300x300]

Bullshiat hippy snake oil salesman-like typing detected! The only proven use for bromelain is as an anti-inflammatory for arthritis.

I'm not selling anything.  Bromelain breaks down fibrin, which is what holds all the shiat clogging your arteries in place.  Take bromelain on an empty stomach and quite a bit passes into your blood stream.  There was a study done with rabbits, and the chemistry involved is identical to humans, fibrin is fibrin, bromelain is bromelain.  I get it though, you'd rather let your arteries get clogged, have expensive surgery, then take expensive medicine than take something known to be a cure, and costs like $5.  Shillbots gotta shill after all.


And yet the NIH makes no mention of your snake oil on their page about bromelain. Just another stupid hippy slinging the latest "One secret to preventing health problems!"
 
2014-03-10 05:22:35 PM  

That Guy Jeff: BraveNewCheneyWorld: That Guy Jeff: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Or you could just take bromelain.  It's a natural enzyme that when taken on an empty stomach, dissolves fibrin in veins and arteries, which is the binding material of all plaque.  It's already been proven in rabbits and the chemicals involved are identical in humans.

[i59.tinypic.com image 300x300]

Bullshiat hippy snake oil salesman-like typing detected! The only proven use for bromelain is as an anti-inflammatory for arthritis.

I'm not selling anything.  Bromelain breaks down fibrin, which is what holds all the shiat clogging your arteries in place.  Take bromelain on an empty stomach and quite a bit passes into your blood stream.  There was a study done with rabbits, and the chemistry involved is identical to humans, fibrin is fibrin, bromelain is bromelain.  I get it though, you'd rather let your arteries get clogged, have expensive surgery, then take expensive medicine than take something known to be a cure, and costs like $5.  Shillbots gotta shill after all.

And yet the NIH makes no mention of your snake oil on their page about bromelain. Just another stupid hippy slinging the latest "One secret to preventing health problems!"


It's the MEDICAL MIRACLE THAT CARDIOLOGISTS WON'T TELL YOU ABOUT!
 
2014-03-10 05:28:14 PM  

That Guy Jeff: And yet the NIH makes no mention of your snake oil on their page about bromelain.


Oh yeah, every part of the government is there to look out for you, and not any multimillion dollar businesses.  Instead of looking at the research or lack thereof from people who have revolving doors with lobby firms/pharmaceuticals, you could look it up for yourself.

Is bromelain an enzyme that breaks down fibrin?
Is fibrin responsible for holding clots together?
Does bromelain enter the blood if taken on an empty stomach?

Yes.  This has already been proven in studies on rabbits that had arterial placque in their arteries.  This is basic chemistry going on, it works the same in humans, but nobody's going to fund the research because it's $5 a bottle, and it's in nobody's financial interest to do so.  Have fun dying of a blockage because you blindly believe the government cares as much about your health as you do.  It's amazing how naive some people here are.
 
2014-03-10 05:32:01 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: That Guy Jeff: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Or you could just take bromelain.  It's a natural enzyme that when taken on an empty stomach, dissolves fibrin in veins and arteries, which is the binding material of all plaque.  It's already been proven in rabbits and the chemicals involved are identical in humans.

[i59.tinypic.com image 300x300]

Bullshiat hippy snake oil salesman-like typing detected! The only proven use for bromelain is as an anti-inflammatory for arthritis.

I'm not selling anything.  Bromelain breaks down fibrin, which is what holds all the shiat clogging your arteries in place.  Take bromelain on an empty stomach and quite a bit passes into your blood stream.  There was a study done with rabbits, and the chemistry involved is identical to humans, fibrin is fibrin, bromelain is bromelain.  I get it though, you'd rather let your arteries get clogged, have expensive surgery, then take expensive medicine than take something known to be a cure, and costs like $5.  Shillbots gotta shill after all.


You see, bromelain in an enzyme. Enzymes are made of protein.

When you eat, you digest these enzymes. Very little gets into your blood.

This protease is basically a meat tenderizer extracted from pineapple. A PubMed search shows lots of investigations into small things with some anti-inflammatory and anti-tumor effect, usually in vitro.

Not FDA-approved for anything. What is the reference you're talking about? The only rabbit study I could find was for ischemia/reperfusion injury from 2006.
 
2014-03-10 05:33:49 PM  
By the way, a lab study in rabbits in general means nothing. The old joke about how many times cancer has been cured in rats...
 
2014-03-10 05:36:17 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: That Guy Jeff: And yet the NIH makes no mention of your snake oil on their page about bromelain.

Oh yeah, every part of the government is there to look out for you, and not any multimillion dollar businesses.  Instead of looking at the research or lack thereof from people who have revolving doors with lobby firms/pharmaceuticals, you could look it up for yourself.

Is bromelain an enzyme that breaks down fibrin?
Is fibrin responsible for holding clots together?
Does bromelain enter the blood if taken on an empty stomach?

Yes.  This has already been proven in studies on rabbits that had arterial placque in their arteries.  This is basic chemistry going on, it works the same in humans, but nobody's going to fund the research because it's $5 a bottle, and it's in nobody's financial interest to do so.  Have fun dying of a blockage because you blindly believe the government cares as much about your health as you do.  It's amazing how naive some people here are.


There, we go, the classic hippy conspiracy theory: this alternative medicine would be a miracle cure but the Man isn't going to make money off it so it's not been investigated. Oft repeated for just about any condition and product to fix it, whether the product be some "common cheap natural chemical" or "ancient Chinese secret". Sorry conspiracy hippy, no one outside your (drum) circle is going to take you seriously.
 
2014-03-10 05:55:10 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Is bromelain an enzyme that breaks down fibrin?
Is fibrin responsible for holding clots together?
Does bromelain enter the blood if taken on an empty stomach?


Is bleach a compound which kills bacteria?
Are bacteria responsible for causing infection?
Does bleach enter the blood if taken on a empty stomach?

Bleach, the cheap and easy wonder cure for all infections that THEY don't want you to know about.  It's basic chemistry!
 
2014-03-10 05:58:05 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Bacon is not the reason your arteries are clogged with goo.


Well,  artificial bacon can fark you up in many ways for sure . . .

/it's just wrong
 
2014-03-10 06:41:35 PM  

arcas: Angioplasty and stints seem like crude solutions.  They basically mash the crud up against the artery walls, right?  What we need is the equivalent of a plumber's snake and a shop vac to catch the pieces so they don't can't travel downstream and block other arteries.

Bring on the nanobot artery scrubbers!


They do have the option cutting through some of the plaque and putting a wire mesh downstream to catch any emboli. However even then you will have small emboli get through. It is actually not uncommon for people to have an elevated troponin *after* getting cathed for a non ST elevated MI.
 
2014-03-10 07:39:03 PM  

lake_huron: Very little gets into your blood.


I said on an empty stomach right from the start.  Is reading that hard?

http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/5694/1/NPR%207%284%29 %2 0359-363.pdf

Knock yourself out.

lake_huron: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Is bromelain an enzyme that breaks down fibrin?
Is fibrin responsible for holding clots together?
Does bromelain enter the blood if taken on an empty stomach?

Is bleach a compound which kills bacteria?
Are bacteria responsible for causing infection?
Does bleach enter the blood if taken on a empty stomach?

Bleach, the cheap and easy wonder cure for all infections that THEY don't want you to know about.  It's basic chemistry!


Yeah, real fair analogy.  No intellectual dishonesty here!
 
2014-03-10 10:15:03 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: lake_huron: Very little gets into your blood.

I said on an empty stomach right from the start.  Is reading that hard?

http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/5694/1/NPR%207%284%29 %2 0359-363.pdf

Knock yourself out.

lake_huron: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Is bromelain an enzyme that breaks down fibrin?
Is fibrin responsible for holding clots together?
Does bromelain enter the blood if taken on an empty stomach?

Is bleach a compound which kills bacteria?
Are bacteria responsible for causing infection?
Does bleach enter the blood if taken on a empty stomach?

Bleach, the cheap and easy wonder cure for all infections that THEY don't want you to know about.  It's basic chemistry!

Yeah, real fair analogy.  No intellectual dishonesty here!



Hate to break it to you, but the review article does not state that bromelain ingested by rats breaks down blood clots in rats.  It states that it is well-absorbed, has some in vitro and in vivo effects on coagulation times, platelet aggegration, and inflammatory cascades.

That is a very big leap to go from those separate pieces of data to say is has comparable efficacy to well-tested fibrinolytic agents sych as tissue plasminogen activator, or modern stenting methodology.

Now, I have only been a physician for around thirteen years, but I haven't seen any progress on this hit the major journals like JAMA or NEJM.  The primary data referenced in your review article from a natural products journal from India says, at best, it does little harm orally and merits further study.

The people selling you the bottle of bromelain are making money too, you know? I mean, they make this stuff from pineapple.

Plenty of natural products have been purified, developed, and shown to have great clinical use.  Warfarin, aspirin, digitalis, taxol.  This one may have potential, but is not there yet.
 
db2
2014-03-11 08:16:00 AM  
So you can bypass a bypass? Waka waka.
 
2014-03-11 10:24:20 AM  

lake_huron: BraveNewCheneyWorld: lake_huron: Very little gets into your blood.

I said on an empty stomach right from the start.  Is reading that hard?

http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/5694/1/NPR%207%284%29 %2 0359-363.pdf

Knock yourself out.

lake_huron: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Is bromelain an enzyme that breaks down fibrin?
Is fibrin responsible for holding clots together?
Does bromelain enter the blood if taken on an empty stomach?

Is bleach a compound which kills bacteria?
Are bacteria responsible for causing infection?
Does bleach enter the blood if taken on a empty stomach?

Bleach, the cheap and easy wonder cure for all infections that THEY don't want you to know about.  It's basic chemistry!

Yeah, real fair analogy.  No intellectual dishonesty here!


Hate to break it to you, but the review article does not state that bromelain ingested by rats breaks down blood clots in rats.  It states that it is well-absorbed, has some in vitro and in vivo effects on coagulation times, platelet aggegration, and inflammatory cascades.

That is a very big leap to go from those separate pieces of data to say is has comparable efficacy to well-tested fibrinolytic agents sych as tissue plasminogen activator, or modern stenting methodology.

Now, I have only been a physician for around thirteen years, but I haven't seen any progress on this hit the major journals like JAMA or NEJM.  The primary data referenced in your review article from a natural products journal from India says, at best, it does little harm orally and merits further study.

The people selling you the bottle of bromelain are making money too, you know? I mean, they make this stuff from pineapple.

Plenty of natural products have been purified, developed, and shown to have great clinical use.  Warfarin, aspirin, digitalis, taxol.  This one may have potential, but is not there yet.


You can't even follow the simplest conversational points.  Why would I care about your opinion on anything else?

No, I didn't link the rabbit study that shows plaque reduction.  I was addressing the point YOU brought up.  Bromelain isn't going to stop interacting with fibrin just because it's inside a human.  This isn't a complex cure, it's basic farking chemistry.  Your earlier comparison to cures working in rats and not in humans only shows that you have no farking idea what's involved in this reaction, and why it's substantially different compared to a cancer cure, which is scary as fark because iirc you claim to be in the medical field.
 
2014-03-11 11:04:18 AM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: No, I didn't link the rabbit study that shows plaque reduction. I was addressing the point YOU brought up. Bromelain isn't going to stop interacting with fibrin just because it's inside a human. This isn't a complex cure, it's basic farking chemistry. Your earlier comparison to cures working in rats and not in humans only shows that you have no farking idea what's involved in this reaction, and why it's substantially different compared to a cancer cure, which is scary as fark because iirc you claim to be in the medical field.


I have a PhD in biochemistry, and am no longer a practicing scientist because I am now a physician.  And my 10:40 appointment hasn't shown up yet.
 There is a big difference between "an enzymatic soup interacting with fibrin molecules" and "is clinically useful in breaking up clots in a human being."  Mechanistic plausibility is a wonderful thing -- yes the biochemistry makes sense, although a whole bunch of other cysteine proteases couid do the job just as well.


But as is often the case, the real-world test is a trial, conducted in humans.  Plenty of interventions looks fantastic in vitro, work well in mice, pass early phase clinical trials, and then in human studies bomb out for unforseen (or unknown) reasons.

The fact that "the chemistry makes sense" is a far cry from "this will have clinical efficacy."  The New England Journal of Medicine is full of articles showing how the hottest new drug, which has much more data behind it that bromelain, failed in a clinical trial, or had an undesirable endpoint.

A lot of armchair physicians such as yourself think that simple logical constructions like "bromelain is absorbed in mice, bromelain breaks clots, ergo bromelain breaks clots in people" are the way the world works.  Why might this not be correct?
- There are circulating proteins which may serve as protease inhibitors; these may be different or in different concentrations compared to other model animals
- The nonspecific cysteine protease activity also breaks down other proteins which may cause clinical harm
- The concentrations necessary for clinical efficacy might be too high to achieve by mouth, and thus it would no longer be superior to tPA
- Unforseen side effects, e.g. bleeding, serum sickness

Again, bromelain looks promising.  the best data I saw in Pubmed concerned enzymatic debridement of burn wounds, which is easier to test and also has good mechanistic plausbility.

But it is a mixture of proteases, the pills you tout probably have inconsistent enzymatic activity, and to demonstrate clinical usefulness would need a randomized controlled trial for the specified endpoint with an appropriately identified control group.  If you are claiming it works as well as tPA for thrombolysis, you would need a LOT of preliminary data before it would be worth entertaining as a real clinical intervention.

Dude, an NIH grant starting off with animal studies for thrombolysis would probably get funded if it were well-designed.  It's a good start, but just because it makes sense in your mind doesn't mean it will work.

BTW, pls link to the rabbit study.  You keep bringing it up, I'd like to see the methods.
 
2014-03-11 11:19:47 AM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Bromelain isn't going to stop interacting with fibrin just because it's inside a human.


I forgot to point out that actually, this is quite possible due to interfering substances, differences in metabolism, etc.  However, I doubt it's the case, most mammalian clotting cascades are pretty similar.  There's not enough human data to say one way or another.
 
2014-03-11 01:10:35 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: lake_huron: Very little gets into your blood.

I said on an empty stomach right from the start.  Is reading that hard?

http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/5694/1/NPR%207%284%29 %2 0359-363.pdf

Knock yourself out.


Marked as "moron."  Nice article, "Natural product radiance" journal, is that like the Science of the moron world?  Does Barun have a degree?

/you must be trolling...
 
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