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(The New Republic)   Crimea isn't like Poland in the 30's, it's more like Cyprus in the 70's   (newrepublic.com) divider line 40
    More: Interesting, Crimean, Poland, Cyprus, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Tom Perkins, Godwin's Law, Garry Kasparov, military juntas  
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859 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Mar 2014 at 9:36 AM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-10 09:13:59 AM  
In the 30s and 70s what?
 
2014-03-10 09:18:12 AM  
And Russia's actions will force Belarus and Ukraine to join the EU and NATO, making it impossible for Russia to regain the strength it once had.
 
2014-03-10 09:43:03 AM  
Since the invasion was justified to defend nationals, wouldn't the US invasion of Grenada be a reasonable comparison?
 
2014-03-10 09:49:38 AM  
This is Cyrus in the 80s.  I don't even wanna know what the dude was like in the 70s.

i1168.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-10 09:50:11 AM  

Muta: Since the invasion was justified to defend nationals, wouldn't the US invasion of Grenada be a reasonable comparison?


Isn't that what the Turks were doing in Cyprus? And the justification for Grenada wasn't the reason for Grenada, so no.
 
2014-03-10 09:51:08 AM  

Muta: Since the invasion was justified to defend nationals, wouldn't the US invasion of Grenada be a reasonable comparison?


No, and stop living in the Reagan years.
 
2014-03-10 09:52:59 AM  

Muta: Since the invasion was justified to defend nationals, wouldn't the US invasion of Grenada be a reasonable comparison?


The US never invaded Grenada.  There was a predawn vertical insertion by Caribbean peacekeeping forces, but no invasion.  The US has always scrupulously respected the Laws of War and the sovereignty of other nations, especially in the Western Hemisphere.
 
2014-03-10 09:55:25 AM  

quokka70: Muta: Since the invasion was justified to defend nationals, wouldn't the US invasion of Grenada be a reasonable comparison?

The US never invaded Grenada.  There was a predawn vertical insertion by Caribbean peacekeeping forces, but no invasion.  The US has always scrupulously respected the Laws of War and the sovereignty of other nations, especially in the Western Hemisphere.


Yes, yes, well played, old chap.
 
2014-03-10 09:56:22 AM  
Everything is always like Weimar.
 
2014-03-10 10:02:34 AM  

macadamnut: Isn't that what the Turks were doing in Cyprus?


That's nobody's business but the Turks.
 
2014-03-10 10:07:49 AM  

WTF Indeed: And Russia's actions will force Belarus and Ukraine to join the EU and NATO, making it impossible for Russia to regain the strength it once had.


...why in the living fark would Belarus join NATO? Belarus is a Russian client state and is content to be so. There are public policy differences - Belarus does not support the Russian intervention in and annexation of Crimea - but Lukashenko has been under sanctions from the EU intermittently since the EU was formed. And NATO no longer permits dictatorships to join. Yes, Belarus has started showing more independence and is no longer likely to join Putin's "new Soviet Union" because of personal animosity between Lukashenko and Putin, but the Belarussian dictator is in no mood to Westernize.
 
2014-03-10 10:32:38 AM  

WTF Indeed: And Russia's actions will force Belarus and Ukraine to join the EU and NATO, making it impossible for Russia to regain the strength it once had.


You're so amazing. You're completely oblivious to being caught again and again, not having a single clue, yet you keep posting!

Ukraine and Belarussia can't join the EU.


There, again. Ukraine and Belarussia can't join the EU.


See, you posted your usual uninformed bullshiat. Will it stop you in the future? Nooo.
 
2014-03-10 10:35:10 AM  

captainktainer: WTF Indeed: And Russia's actions will force Belarus and Ukraine to join the EU and NATO, making it impossible for Russia to regain the strength it once had.

...why in the living fark would Belarus join NATO? Belarus is a Russian client state and is content to be so. There are public policy differences - Belarus does not support the Russian intervention in and annexation of Crimea - but Lukashenko has been under sanctions from the EU intermittently since the EU was formed. And NATO no longer permits dictatorships to join. Yes, Belarus has started showing more independence and is no longer likely to join Putin's "new Soviet Union" because of personal animosity between Lukashenko and Putin, but the Belarussian dictator is in no mood to Westernize.


You missed his EU bullshiat. Ukraine and Belarussia can't join the EU. Though obviously in WTFmorons world, the EU itself has no say in who joins it, reality is thankfully different than WTFmorons spider infested delusional world.
 
2014-03-10 10:42:18 AM  

spawn73: Ukraine and Belarussia can't join the EU.


Since you're so certain of that, why?  According to the Copenhagen criteria, I can't see any reason why Ukraine and Belarus couldn't join the EU.  Do they not meet the Democracy criteria, or do they not respect minorities adequately?  I'm genuinely curious.
 
2014-03-10 12:05:21 PM  
Suppose Hawaii was not part of the US, but a very friendly state that let us use Pearl Harbor as our primary base for Pacific operations.  Also suppose we had very few other options that would allow us access to the Pacific.

So following this hypothetical, if there was a pro China revolution in Hawaii that assumed power through some constitutionally murky decisions, and part of the new ruling bloc wanted to kick the US out of Pearl Harbor - what should we do?  Add in that the island Pearl Harbor is located on is still very US friendly, and contains many expat Americans.
 
2014-03-10 12:06:14 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: spawn73: Ukraine and Belarussia can't join the EU.

Since you're so certain of that, why?  According to the Copenhagen criteria, I can't see any reason why Ukraine and Belarus couldn't join the EU.  Do they not meet the Democracy criteria, or do they not respect minorities adequately?  I'm genuinely curious.


http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/international/enlargement/criter ia /index_en.htm

There's three criterias.

Belarussia arguably doesn't meet a single one of them (they're a dictatorship, look it up.).

Ukraine doesn't meet two of them, and the third one, the democratic criteria is kinda open for debate. They're hardly a stable model democracy. I mean, when Putin talks about an undemocratic coup, the response is mostly "well yeah, but...". Because you know, he's actually right.

---

But that's the written criteria that applicant countries have to fullfill. There's also the subjective criteria of them simply not being welcome.

I'm not saying never ever. But just that in the foreseable future, they're large shiatholes, that noone wants to have to absord into the EU.

The EU have accepted countries (Greece, Spain and Portugal), and so has NATO with Turkey, simply to help them along their democratic and economic path. But times are different. The coldwar is over, and noone really cares whether Ukraine and Belarussia reforms or not to be honest. And Greece, especially Greece, has really cooled the EUs willingness to help out nations that have brought their problems upon themselves.
 
2014-03-10 12:11:03 PM  
While Canadian forces have had a symbolic and useful NATO-inspired presence in Eastern Europe over the last decade, I highly doubt that our government would send peacekeepers to Ukraine to keep the Russians in line. By contrast, Cyprus was very much a Canadian mission that lasted 29 years (sorry about the .pdf format).
 
2014-03-10 12:39:18 PM  

MattStafford: Suppose Hawaii was not part of the US, but a very friendly state that let us use Pearl Harbor as our primary base for Pacific operations.  Also suppose we had very few other options that would allow us access to the Pacific.

So following this hypothetical, if there was a pro China revolution in Hawaii that assumed power through some constitutionally murky decisions, and part of the new ruling bloc wanted to kick the US out of Pearl Harbor - what should we do?  Add in that the island Pearl Harbor is located on is still very US friendly, and contains many expat Americans.


You are justly renowned in these parts for your mastery of hypothetical scenarios, but I believe I'm speaking not only for myself when I ask: where are the coconuts in this one?
 
2014-03-10 12:43:03 PM  

MattStafford: Suppose Hawaii was not part of the US, but a very friendly state that let us use Pearl Harbor as our primary base for Pacific operations.  Also suppose we had very few other options that would allow us access to the Pacific.

So following this hypothetical, if there was a pro China revolution in Hawaii that assumed power through some constitutionally murky decisions, and part of the new ruling bloc wanted to kick the US out of Pearl Harbor - what should we do?  Add in that the island Pearl Harbor is located on is still very US friendly, and contains many expat Americans.


But to my knowledge the Ukrainians never kicked the Russians off of the land leased bases nor threatened to. Gitmo would be a closer analogy. Would we have rolled the tanks once Batista fell for fear of losing Gitmo.
 
2014-03-10 12:43:29 PM  

spawn73: when Putin talks about an undemocratic coup, the response is mostly "well yeah, but...". Because you know, he's actually right


What happened in Ukraine does not fit the definition of "coup", and it is laughable for Putin of all people to take such a high moral tone. The man murders and jails his political opponents, for God's sake.
 
2014-03-10 01:01:11 PM  

MattStafford: Suppose Hawaii was not part of the US, but a very friendly state that let us use Pearl Harbor as our primary base for Pacific operations.  Also suppose we had very few other options that would allow us access to the Pacific.

So following this hypothetical, if there was a pro China revolution in Hawaii that assumed power through some constitutionally murky decisions, and part of the new ruling bloc wanted to kick the US out of Pearl Harbor - what should we do?  Add in that the island Pearl Harbor is located on is still very US friendly, and contains many expat Americans.


Negotiate with them to keep our bases.
 
2014-03-10 01:09:43 PM  

Saiga410: But to my knowledge the Ukrainians never kicked the Russians off of the land leased bases nor threatened to. Gitmo would be a closer analogy. Would we have rolled the tanks once Batista fell for fear of losing Gitmo.


Tyrone Slothrop: Negotiate with them to keep our bases


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

The Svoboda party, who hold significant influence in the post revolution power system have kicking the Russians out of Crimea as one of their party platforms, and based on their history and politics, certainly don't seem interested in negotiating.  I would say Russia was justified in thinking that a lack of action would result in losing Sevastopol.
 
2014-03-10 01:11:23 PM  

Wooly Bully: You are justly renowned in these parts for your mastery of hypothetical scenarios, but I believe I'm speaking not only for myself when I ask: where are the coconuts in this one?


MattStafford: Suppose Hawaii,  known for its coconut production, was not part of the US, but a very friendly state that let us use Pearl Harbor as our primary base for Pacific operations.  Also suppose we had very few other options that would allow us access to the Pacific.

So following this hypothetical, if there was a pro China revolution in Hawaii that assumed power through some constitutionally murky decisions, and part of the new ruling bloc wanted to kick the US out of Pearl Harbor - what should we do?  Add in that the island Pearl Harbor is located on is still very US friendly, and contains many expat Americans.


Apologies.
 
2014-03-10 01:15:16 PM  

Wooly Bully: spawn73: when Putin talks about an undemocratic coup, the response is mostly "well yeah, but...". Because you know, he's actually right

What happened in Ukraine does not fit the definition of "coup", and it is laughable for Putin of all people to take such a high moral tone. The man murders and jails his political opponents, for God's sake.


One of the three criteria is a "stable democracy". Ukraine is not a stable democracy.

Once you're down to debating whether their current governemt is legitimate, or whether it was a coup or not, the stable thing is kinda gone.
 
2014-03-10 01:24:44 PM  

spawn73: Wooly Bully: spawn73: when Putin talks about an undemocratic coup, the response is mostly "well yeah, but...". Because you know, he's actually right

What happened in Ukraine does not fit the definition of "coup", and it is laughable for Putin of all people to take such a high moral tone. The man murders and jails his political opponents, for God's sake.

One of the three criteria is a "stable democracy". Ukraine is not a stable democracy.

Once you're down to debating whether their current governemt is legitimate, or whether it was a coup or not, the stable thing is kinda gone.


Well obviously Ukraine's unstable. I wasn't addressing the EU eligibility issue, merely the ludicrousness of Putin calling Yanukovych's ouster a "coup". It isn't even "debatable" that it's a bullsh*t characterization.
 
2014-03-10 01:55:46 PM  
I would say it is more like Austria in the 30s than Poland.
 
2014-03-10 02:06:51 PM  

Wooly Bully: spawn73: Wooly Bully: spawn73: when Putin talks about an undemocratic coup, the response is mostly "well yeah, but...". Because you know, he's actually right

What happened in Ukraine does not fit the definition of "coup", and it is laughable for Putin of all people to take such a high moral tone. The man murders and jails his political opponents, for God's sake.

One of the three criteria is a "stable democracy". Ukraine is not a stable democracy.

Once you're down to debating whether their current governemt is legitimate, or whether it was a coup or not, the stable thing is kinda gone.

Well obviously Ukraine's unstable. I wasn't addressing the EU eligibility issue, merely the ludicrousness of Putin calling Yanukovych's ouster a "coup". It isn't even "debatable" that it's a bullsh*t characterization.


If you only get your news from the Daily Show, then yeah, you might not be aware that it was a coup.

But it was 3 months of violent riots with the democraticly elected government on one side, and the victorious protestors. That you, probably because you're aware that the protestors are a bunch of nazi douchebags, have sympathy for them, doesn't really change that they came into power through unconstitutional and violent means.

The context anyhow is whether they could join the EU. And they can't.
 
2014-03-10 02:10:29 PM  

spawn73: If you only get your news from the Daily Show, then yeah, you might not be aware that it was a coup.


Oh never mind then, I didn't realize you were a troll. Carry on then, and while you're at it, look up "coup", moron.
 
2014-03-10 02:43:55 PM  

quokka70: Muta: Since the invasion was justified to defend nationals, wouldn't the US invasion of Grenada be a reasonable comparison?

The US never invaded Grenada.  There was a predawn vertical insertion by Caribbean peacekeeping forces, but no invasion.  The US has always scrupulously respected the Laws of War and the sovereignty of other nations, especially in the Western Hemisphere.


What book did you use to train yourself to keep a straight face through that?  I'd like a copy - would be useful at work.
 
2014-03-10 03:00:09 PM  

Wooly Bully: spawn73: If you only get your news from the Daily Show, then yeah, you might not be aware that it was a coup.

Oh never mind then, I didn't realize you were a troll. Carry on then, and while you're at it, look up "coup", moron.


I don't need to clown.
 
2014-03-10 04:31:40 PM  
Crimea in 2014 is like Crimea in 2014, you can draw all the historical parallels you want but if those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, those who read too much into history can make huge mistakes as well as they do not look for the new and how it might change the situation and so just act how they think their historical counterparts should have even if it is wrong.  I don't dismiss the value of historical analysis but I just worry about becoming a slave to some simple analogy.
 
2014-03-10 04:32:08 PM  

Wooly Bully: spawn73: If you only get your news from the Daily Show, then yeah, you might not be aware that it was a coup.

Oh never mind then, I didn't realize you were a troll. Carry on then, and while you're at it, look up "coup", moron.


http://www.answercoalition.org/national/news/how-and-why-us-supporte d- neo-nazis-Ukraine.html

But remember, I'm a troll.
 
2014-03-10 04:50:13 PM  
Cypress Gardens in the 70's

That doesn't seem too bad.

i.imgur.com

/gardens, right?
 
2014-03-10 04:58:19 PM  

spawn73: Wooly Bully: spawn73: If you only get your news from the Daily Show, then yeah, you might not be aware that it was a coup.

Oh never mind then, I didn't realize you were a troll. Carry on then, and while you're at it, look up "coup", moron.

http://www.answercoalition.org/national/news/how-and-why-us-supporte d- neo-nazis-Ukraine.html

But remember, I'm a troll.


You should be looking up the word "coup", since you obviously don't have the faintest idea of what it means, instead of posting links to propaganda websites, troll-who-just-called-me-probably-a-Nazi-sympathizer.
 
2014-03-10 05:07:24 PM  

Wooly Bully: spawn73: Wooly Bully: spawn73: If you only get your news from the Daily Show, then yeah, you might not be aware that it was a coup.

Oh never mind then, I didn't realize you were a troll. Carry on then, and while you're at it, look up "coup", moron.

http://www.answercoalition.org/national/news/how-and-why-us-supporte d- neo-nazis-Ukraine.html

But remember, I'm a troll.

You should be looking up the word "coup", since you obviously don't have the faintest idea of what it means, instead of posting links to propaganda websites, troll-who-just-called-me-probably-a-Nazi-sympathizer.


I think its best if you also linked the site you want me to look at, otherwise you'll find it hard for me to believe that that anyone has any alternative definition of coup beyond the accepted.

I didn't call you a nazi sympatizer. I alluded to you being ignorant of current events.
 
2014-03-10 05:37:04 PM  

spawn73: I didn't call you a nazi sympatizer.


Right, you didn't post this:

spawn73: you, probably because you're aware that the protestors are a bunch of nazi douchebags, have sympathy for them

 
2014-03-10 05:44:14 PM  

Wooly Bully: spawn73: I didn't call you a nazi sympatizer.

Right, you didn't post this:

spawn73: you, probably because you're aware that the protestors are a bunch of nazi douchebags, have sympathy for them


yes indeed I did. Let me rephrase that. "You have sympathy for the protestors, probably because you're unaware that they're nazi douchebags." Ie. I said the opposite.

/I am aware that they're not all nazi douchebags. I mean, it's only the primeminister and 4 other ministers. Despite them only having 10% popular support at the last election.
 
2014-03-10 05:55:56 PM  

spawn73: I am aware that they're not all nazi douchebags. I mean, it's only the primeminister and 4 other ministers


Good God, man, Yatsenyuk is not a Nazi. You're insane.
 
2014-03-10 07:29:57 PM  

Wooly Bully: spawn73: I am aware that they're not all nazi douchebags. I mean, it's only the primeminister and 4 other ministers

Good God, man, Yatsenyuk is not a Nazi. You're insane.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-transition-government-neo-nazis -i n-control-of-armed-forces-national-security-economy-justice-and-educat ion/5371539

I mneant to say vice-prime minister. But as far as I can tell Svoboda doesn't control that seat either, even though I read earlier that they did for a fact.
 
2014-03-11 08:10:11 AM  

yakmans_dad: Everything is always like Weimar Benghazi.

 
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