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(CTV News)   While everyone laughs at Quebec and their French-language cops, Nebraska discovers it has a language law of its own on the books that makes Quebec's look like a list of friendly suggestions by comparison   (ctvnews.ca) divider line 41
    More: Dumbass, Parti Quebecois, Nebraska, Quebec, democratic debates, drill sergeant  
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3796 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Mar 2014 at 11:02 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



41 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-03-09 11:09:12 AM  
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Meet the new bogeyman, same as the old bogeyman.
 
2014-03-09 11:13:37 AM  
Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.
 
2014-03-09 11:16:52 AM  

clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.


An irrational fear of furriners in funny hats is not really old news. It's a farking sport in flyover country.
 
2014-03-09 11:23:19 AM  

clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.


I'm a huge fan of finding the old, silly ones.

One of my particular favorites. In NJ, it's illegal for a man to knit during fishing season.

/silly law thread?
 
2014-03-09 11:23:54 AM  

clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.


I must have missed that. Link plz?
 
2014-03-09 11:24:52 AM  
So...can we bring lawsuits against any teacher wearing a cross around their neck or CTR ring on their finger? This could get fun!
 
2014-03-09 11:28:05 AM  
a 26-year army drill sergeant...sez..." why go through all that rigamarole? It doesn't make any sense."

I thought nonsensical rigamarole was the whole point of drill sergeants?

Not really.  I know the point is to teach recruits to do what they are told no matter how imbecilic the order might be.  Now, get your toothbrush and scrub that latrine.
 
2014-03-09 11:29:09 AM  

grumpfuff: clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.

I'm a huge fan of finding the old, silly ones.

One of my particular favorites. In NJ, it's illegal for a man to knit during fishing season.

/silly law thread?


Florida - single women can't skydive on Sunday.
 
2014-03-09 11:32:11 AM  

clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.


Yeah, but they usually aren't cited with a straight face by serious lawmakers in foreign countries as a precedent.

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.
 
2014-03-09 11:57:01 AM  
Hey  dumbmitter, read the article again. The controversial new law has fark all to do with language; it's about preventing people from wearing religious symbols while they work at a government job.
 
2014-03-09 12:01:39 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.

Yeah, but they usually aren't cited with a straight face by serious lawmakers in foreign countries as a precedent.

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.


Well there's your problem. The only thing Pauling Marois and co. are serious about is finding a fig leaf justification for their intentionally divisive politics. This is all about reviving fear and distrust between the "pur laine" francophone Quebecois and the allophones and anglophones. It's her only shot at riling people up enough that she could squeak out a referendum win, and she knows it. Her conclusion is not up for debate, so it is simply a question for her what justification she tries to use. It's frankly disgusting to see.
 
2014-03-09 12:08:11 PM  

grumpfuff: clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.

I'm a huge fan of finding the old, silly ones.

One of my particular favorites. In NJ, it's illegal for a man to knit during fishing season.

/silly law thread?


In Trenton, it is illegal to throw a pickle in the street.

It is also illegal to eat pickles on Sunday.

Somebody obviously had a thing about pickles.
 
2014-03-09 12:09:06 PM  

mander: Hey  dumbmitter, read the article again. The controversial new law has fark all to do with language; it's about preventing people from wearing religious symbols while they work at a government job.


Subby DNRTFA.  Must be Sunday.
 
2014-03-09 12:10:11 PM  

Smoking GNU: clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.

I must have missed that. Link plz?


Sorry, Massachusetts. Someone went to trial for taking upskirt pics, and was released because the courts found he wasn't in violation of any existing state laws. Within 72 hours, a new law was signed by their governor to stop that from happening again.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/justice /massachusetts-upskirt-bill/
 
2014-03-09 12:12:33 PM  
That article would be illegal in Nebraska, there's mention of corn anywhere in it.
 
2014-03-09 12:20:38 PM  

KiltedBastich: Benevolent Misanthrope: clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.

Yeah, but they usually aren't cited with a straight face by serious lawmakers in foreign countries as a precedent.

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

Well there's your problem. The only thing Pauling Marois and co. are serious about is finding a fig leaf justification for their intentionally divisive politics. This is all about reviving fear and distrust between the "pur laine" francophone Quebecois and the allophones and anglophones. It's her only shot at riling people up enough that she could squeak out a referendum win, and she knows it. Her conclusion is not up for debate, so it is simply a question for her what justification she tries to use. It's frankly disgusting to see.


Don't forget about drawing attention away from any Commission Charbonneau testimony her husband might be asked to make.
 
2014-03-09 12:23:01 PM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: mander: Hey  dumbmitter, read the article again. The controversial new law has fark all to do with language; it's about preventing people from wearing religious symbols while they work at a government job.

Subby DNRTFA.  Must be Sunday.


Err, maybe I'm missing something, but the Quebec government is proposing a law to prevent people from wearing religious garb while on the job at the civil service.
 
2014-03-09 12:55:24 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.

Yeah, but they usually aren't cited with a straight face by serious lawmakers in foreign countries as a precedent.

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.


Also in "redneck Alberta" the city of Calgary has a Muslim mayor, who is awesome.
 
2014-03-09 12:56:33 PM  
Jebus mahoney, moments of my life I will never get back.
Evar.
 
2014-03-09 01:28:41 PM  

Delta1212: grumpfuff: clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.

I'm a huge fan of finding the old, silly ones.

One of my particular favorites. In NJ, it's illegal for a man to knit during fishing season.

/silly law thread?

In Trenton, it is illegal to throw a pickle in the street.

It is also illegal to eat pickles on Sunday.

Somebody obviously had a thing about pickles.


1024 days ago. Never forget.
 
2014-03-09 01:31:23 PM  
Benevolent Misanthrope:

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

And people are well within their Rights to run away, or call 911 and say some police impersonator is trying to harass or murder them.

/If you can't wear the standard uniform, don't apply for the job.
//Dudley Do-right seen laughing at all the non-red uniforms.
///A wool uniform on a hot summer day is hell, ask the horse brigade at the fair about that.
 
2014-03-09 01:38:19 PM  

sheep snorter: Benevolent Misanthrope:

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

And people are well within their Rights to run away, or call 911 and say some police impersonator is trying to harass or murder them.

/If you can't wear the standard uniform, don't apply for the job.
//Dudley Do-right seen laughing at all the non-red uniforms.
///A wool uniform on a hot summer day is hell, ask the horse brigade at the fair about that.


The problem with that logic is that it allows people to design uniforms that exclude specific groups of people from taking those jobs.
 
2014-03-09 01:50:35 PM  

sheep snorter: Benevolent Misanthrope:

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

And people are well within their Rights to run away, or call 911 and say some police impersonator is trying to harass or murder them.

/If you can't wear the standard uniform, don't apply for the job.
//Dudley Do-right seen laughing at all the non-red uniforms.
///A wool uniform on a hot summer day is hell, ask the horse brigade at the fair about that.


Which is simpler:

A.) Allowing a little reasonable flexibility in the dress code, or

B.) Telling a whole swath of the population that they are not permitted to participate in civic duty, thereby making them second-class citizens?
 
2014-03-09 02:02:08 PM  
Wow, 1920's Nebraska? Way to aim for the stars, pequistes. What a bunch of clowns.
 
2014-03-09 02:14:04 PM  

sheep snorter: Benevolent Misanthrope:

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

And people are well within their Rights to run away, or call 911 and say some police impersonator is trying to harass or murder them.

/If you can't wear the standard uniform, don't apply for the job.
//Dudley Do-right seen laughing at all the non-red uniforms.
///A wool uniform on a hot summer day is hell, ask the horse brigade at the fair about that.


Did you click through and look at the pic?  It's actually quite tasteful.  I, who am fundamentally opposed to pushing one's religion on others, find it nice, even.  A statement of, "You can do this sensibly, without making a fuss, and still within the bounds of what we require for the job."

So, nyah.
 
2014-03-09 02:18:16 PM  

grumpfuff: clkeagle: Old news is very old news.

You could go through all 50 state codes and find all kinds of laws that don't fit today's society. They're usually repealed or replaced if they actually get brought to light in the courtroom (like the upskirt thing in PA)... otherwise, they will simply sit ignored on the books.

I'm a huge fan of finding the old, silly ones.

One of my particular favorites. In NJ, it's illegal for a man to knit during fishing season.

/silly law thread?


Knitting during fishing season may sound silly but perhaps it had a point at the time.  Fishermen were often very good knitters. Why? Because they had to repair and make nets, which are a sort of knitting or macramé-type work.

I saw a fisherman's wife on TV during one of these documentary shows that are big on Canadian TV and she acknowledged that her husband was a better knitter than she was.

Perhaps this New Jersey law was intended to prevent the use of nets to catch sports fish, thus encouraging anglers and fly fishers. There's a lot more money in sports fishing than in commercial or net fishing. In my native province of New Brunswick, a typical tourist fishing for salmon creates hundreds or thousands of dollars of economic benefit per salmon. Heck, catching one yourself is as expensive as buying smoked salmon in the shops in a big city. You have to have licences, guides, equipment, accommodations, travel expenses, and so forth. It's a costly sport unless you are a native or native-born New Brunswicker. It's not cheap even then.

My Father and indeed almost all the men and some of the women in my family like fishing. My Father has even been fishing buddy with a member of the local billionaire family, while connections with the other provincial billionaire family makes it easier for my uncles to fish on their private land which is about 1.7 million acres. Land ownership in North America is a lot more feudal than you would believe.

Because the land ownership is registered county by county in the US, many rich families and their corporations own estates that make those of the UK and Old Europe look puny. And their power explains the existence of Red States. They are American Tories and some of these families have wealth and status that date before the Revolution. It was High Whig arisotcrats and a smattering of discontented Tories who turfed the King of England. It was not a bottom-up left wing revolution. It was a top-down seizure of land and power.

The principal discontents were things that affected the wealthy and the well-to-do yeoman farmers. Tea, for example, was a luxury-come-necessity good. The East India Company was being subsidized at the expense of colonials and those who could afford tea boxes (with locks and keys to prevent the servants from gettingg their hands on the precious tea) were literally up in arms. The stamp tax only applid to playing cards and legal documents. Poor people couldn't afford to play Whist or write wills. They divided the estate catch as can, and you should remember that even the 1% in those days did not have a lot of stuff--for example firearms were owned by about 1.5% of the population--the landlords and the better off farmers. Yes, even with the French and Indian Wars, firearms were hand-made luxury goods.

But I digress. I've known people from the Lumpenproletariat to the the Upper Classes so I am a bit of an amateur sociologist, political scientist and socialist. You can't help being against kleptocracy and oligarchy if you have read Adam Smith and have half a brain. Karl Marx helps a bit but he's hard to read and very few people have read or understand a whiff of what he is saying. I haven't read Das Kapital myself, but then who does? and who needs it? You don't need to understand the Bible to call yourself a Christian. All you need is lessons in being more judgmental, like Maude Flanders.

Silly laws are lots of fun. I recommend A.P. Herbert's Uncommon Laws, etc. He was a British M.P. and a satirist and combined the two careers against stupid legislation. You'd like him if you don't already know him with fondness. He is the origin of the old wife's tale of the cheque written on a cow, which has found itself into a couple of law collections although it is like an Onion article--plausible but not strictly true.
 
2014-03-09 02:26:09 PM  

sheep snorter: Benevolent Misanthrope:

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

And people are well within their Rights to run away, or call 911 and say some police impersonator is trying to harass or murder them.

/If you can't wear the standard uniform, don't apply for the job.
//Dudley Do-right seen laughing at all the non-red uniforms.
///A wool uniform on a hot summer day is hell, ask the horse brigade at the fair about that.


I see a problem with the hijab uniform. If I am being ticketed or accosted by an officer I like to not only know the badge number and name but to be able to visually identify the officer. It would be very easy for impersonators to abuse that uniform....
 
2014-03-09 02:41:44 PM  
Quebec has been the source of many of the great things about Canada. It has been a sizable and useful counterweight to the type of conservatism that ruins America and the UK among others. I admire much about Quebec society, culture and govenment, although there is just as much that annoys and infuriates.

I am Anglo-French to the bone, with an amazing amount of American and miscellaneous other thrown in.

I like to say that because of my Scots, Irish, English, Welsh, Norman, Dutch, German, Belgian, Danish, Briton, and other ancestry that I am a First Generation English Man. I am the hybrid that forms when races meet and merge for the first time. I am vigorous in my way, but not likely to leave any direct descendants of my own. Like a hybrid.

I am distrustful of the French and the British as only an Anglo-Frenchman can be. I am as satiric as Hilaire Belloc, one of my favourite poets. I am an outsider-insider so I can understand and feel for both sides of every issue but not truck and trade with the folly or malice of either.

So I can understand the why of this Quebec initiative without fully approving or endorsing it.

Like me, my Quebec cousins fall between two chairs, are neither fish, nor fowl, nor yet good red herring, and are as contradictory and paradoxical as fire on ice or even methane clathrate, which is ice that burns.

There is a deeply religious and conservative trend in the PQ as in Quebec as a whole. There is also a logical, rational, dogmatically right-minded and leftist trend. Both show up in the form of xenophobia and xenophilia, in the form of anti-clericalism and a strong nationalism that is a bit exclusive at times and a bit assimilationist at others.

Like their priests, Quebecers feel a drive to save your soul, not just your body. But they are Statists and secularists at the same time very often.

It's not socialism. It's a kind of paternalism and collectivism like those other very conservative revolutionary societies, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium. There's more communitarian and egalitarian spirit than in the UK and her daughters, including the US who is our half sister, so to speak.

They are all liberal-conservatives or social democrats rather than leftists or rightists. Well, almost all. Each of these nations (and Quebec is a nation within a nation, a state within the state) has a strong hard right and just as strong and dedcated left, but the overall outcome is a paradox--very progressive conservatives.

In Canada our Liberal Party has fallen on hard times and so has the Progressive Conservative Party which is now a Neo-Conservatve very Americanized party. But our NDP is still quite a lot like that of the countries I call All the Usual Suspects and the over-all spirit of Canadian society is Nordic in many ways, with a strong American insurgency. We most ressemble those bits of Europe and the US which were settled by Danes, Swedes, Norwegians and lots of Germans of both the right and the left, of the peasant and the workers' Social Democratic and Christian Socialist parties.

I'm an atheist but I am appalled by the uninformed and dogmatic atheism which bans religious symbols and headgear in a one size fits all policy. They're as bad as American Christians and that is saying a lot, seeing as these are imposing their Mammonite Muscular Christianity in Africa and Brazil, with the result that gays are being tortured, murdered, raped and imprisoned and a kind of Antichristianity is being spread to traditional polytheistic and animist people who then turn into 17th Century Witch Hunters and killers of their friends, family and neighbours in their Righteous Puritan Zeal.

Those who say that America is a Christian nation (by which they mean mine, not yours!) have their counterparts in the atheistic, secularist, statist camp and even among genuine socialists or social democrats.

A plague on both your houses!
 
2014-03-09 02:41:58 PM  

Deedeemarz: sheep snorter: Benevolent Misanthrope:

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

And people are well within their Rights to run away, or call 911 and say some police impersonator is trying to harass or murder them.

/If you can't wear the standard uniform, don't apply for the job.
//Dudley Do-right seen laughing at all the non-red uniforms.
///A wool uniform on a hot summer day is hell, ask the horse brigade at the fair about that.

I see a problem with the hijab uniform. If I am being ticketed or accosted by an officer I like to not only know the badge number and name but to be able to visually identify the officer. It would be very easy for impersonators to abuse that uniform....


It's a hajib, not a burka.
 
2014-03-09 02:42:22 PM  

Deedeemarz: sheep snorter: Benevolent Misanthrope:

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

And people are well within their Rights to run away, or call 911 and say some police impersonator is trying to harass or murder them.

/If you can't wear the standard uniform, don't apply for the job.
//Dudley Do-right seen laughing at all the non-red uniforms.
///A wool uniform on a hot summer day is hell, ask the horse brigade at the fair about that.

I see a problem with the hijab uniform. If I am being ticketed or accosted by an officer I like to not only know the badge number and name but to be able to visually identify the officer. It would be very easy for impersonators to abuse that uniform....


How horrible it is if the officer has their hair covered. There is absolutely know way to identify an office based on their identification and their face.
 
2014-03-09 02:45:43 PM  

LoneWolf343: Deedeemarz: sheep snorter: Benevolent Misanthrope:

I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

And people are well within their Rights to run away, or call 911 and say some police impersonator is trying to harass or murder them.

/If you can't wear the standard uniform, don't apply for the job.
//Dudley Do-right seen laughing at all the non-red uniforms.
///A wool uniform on a hot summer day is hell, ask the horse brigade at the fair about that.

I see a problem with the hijab uniform. If I am being ticketed or accosted by an officer I like to not only know the badge number and name but to be able to visually identify the officer. It would be very easy for impersonators to abuse that uniform....

It's a hajib, not a burka.


Aw hell. I immediately went to burka, thinking that would be the only uniform that would need modification. My mistake. No problem with this then.
 
2014-03-09 02:48:39 PM  
Some of the nicest, most confident and hardest workers at my workplace are Muslims. They remind me of Pentacostals and others--they are often "cheerful Christians" as a conservative Christian might awkwardly put it. And they wear slightly funny clothes and hats.

But would the Quebec Government forbid Christian ladies from wearing funny hats in Church? Would it force the old school Quakers and Amish and others of that ilk to wear buttons? Ah, there is always partiality and blindness to such rules. We pardon some, who are most like us or most like the people we'd like to be (the religious are religious on our behalf, like the Orthodox Jews are for Conservative and Reform Jews and even atheists and secularists, but we willl not tolerate others.

Go figure. It makes no sense. It is human.

STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW!

Yeah, as if. I am middle-aged and prone to pardon. I see more and more sense in seemingly senseless human traits and less in the seemingly rational ones.

I grow old and may begin to wear my trousers rolled. If I do, don't waste any time. But me in a home.
 
2014-03-09 03:47:00 PM  
The really sad part about the so-called "Secular Charter" in Quebec is that for the most part it will have the exact opposite of the intended effect.

Sociologists and social psychologists have been studying cultural assimilation for decades now. You know what works best to abate visible cultural differences and promote integration, over the long term? Tolerance and acceptance. It takes 3 generations, usually, between the immigrant who is visibly part of a foreign culture, and the individual who is part of the mainstream culture. No matter how much the family may want to cling to the traditions (religious or otherwise) of the homeland, the great-grandchildren will far more often than not be a more-or-less indistinguishable part of the mainstream culture.

There's one exception to that rule. If the immigrants feel ostracized or threatened, if they feel like they cannot become full participants in the civic life of their new home, they will band together and form enclaves where they preserve and promote their original cultural traditions, and avoid and reject those of the host culture.

The classic example of this is the jews. For centuries until the second world war, they mostly lived in their own enclaves for fear of anti-Semitism and persecution, and kept to themselves. Despite the actual persecution they suffered, they preserved a unique cultural identity for all those centuries. After the second world war, anti-Semitism was rejected in essentially the entirety of the western world. Sure, you still had fringe groups, but mainstream society became highly accepting and tolerant of judaism. And ironically, now the jews have concerns that the disapora jews outside Israel will lose their identity and become assimilated into the mainstream. Rates of intermarriage are very high, and lapsed jews are extremely common, arguably more common than observant jews depending on how you define it.

So, what Pauline Marois and the PQ are doing with this secular charter is not promoting Quebec values. They are in fact ensuring that future generations of immigrants will feel rejected because of their religious cultures and practices, which will cause them to cling to those same practices all the tighter, and teach them to their children rather than feeling safe and welcomed, which would cause them to allow their children to join in and participate in the culture of Quebec.

Marois is dressing up xenophobia and nationalism in a distorted mockery of progressivism and secularism, and in so doing fundamentally undermines the project she claims she is trying to promote. All because most people don't understand that cultural assimilation and change happens on a generational basis, not an individual basis. You can't make someone reject the culture they grew up with by force or fiat; all that does is oppress those people and make them withdraw into their own enclaves. The real truth is that the PQ doesn't want an inclusive society. They want a society where every different group sits in their own corner quietly and doesn't draw attention to themselves, where only the people who are already sufficiently similar to their narrow definition of Quebec culture can participate in civic society without feeling ostracism and hostility for simply being who they are.

The whole thing is utterly repugnant.
 
2014-03-09 05:05:56 PM  

Deedeemarz: I see a problem with the hijab uniform. If I am being ticketed or accosted by an officer I like to not only know the badge number and name but to be able to visually identify the officer. It would be very easy for impersonators to abuse that uniform....


I'm pretty sure that identifying the cop that offended you as 'the one in the hijab' would get your point across.

KiltedBastich: There's one exception to that rule. If the immigrants feel ostracized or threatened, if they feel like they cannot become full participants in the civic life of their new home, they will band together and form enclaves where they preserve and promote their original cultural traditions, and avoid and reject those of the host culture.


Bang on.  And multiculturalism further helps the issue, by letting newcomers know that most of their traditions won't be threatened.  The  negotiated challenge comes with the handful of traditions that can't be accepted, because they run counter to the idea of multiculturalism at all.  This cop hijab is a good example- it's designed to welcome and encourage muslim women into the police force.  But it also reinforces the very notion of the hijab, a patriarchal construct that runs counter to Canadian notions of gender equality.

Benevolent Misanthrope: I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.


It's Alberta.  We don't have time for discrimination, nor can we afford to alienate anybody that can get the job done.  Every able mind and strong back welcome.
 
2014-03-09 05:32:51 PM  

unyon: Benevolent Misanthrope: I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

It's Alberta.  We don't have time for discrimination, nor can we afford to alienate anybody that can get the job done.  Every able mind and strong back welcome.


True dat.
 
2014-03-09 06:54:27 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-03-09 07:57:04 PM  

unyon: Bang on. And multiculturalism further helps the issue, by letting newcomers know that most of their traditions won't be threatened. The negotiated challenge comes with the handful of traditions that can't be accepted, because they run counter to the idea of multiculturalism at all. This cop hijab is a good example- it's designed to welcome and encourage muslim women into the police force. But it also reinforces the very notion of the hijab, a patriarchal construct that runs counter to Canadian notions of gender equality.


Who cares? As long as she and her family feels safe and accepted, in 3 generations her great-grandkids will be looking at it as a quaint and faintly embarassing cultural practice that is no longer relevant to their lives, and Canada will have moved on to new issues in the meanwhile.

The point is you can't force people to abandon their culture by force, legislative fiat, or subterfuge. It just doesn't work, and instead accomplishes the opposite. I personally think the hijab is deeply sexist and patriarchal; it represents men telling women that in order to be good observant members of their religion they must be ashamed of their bodies, and that it is their fault if men are sexually violent towards them if they don't wear it because they are tempting them. It's offensive BS from my perspective.

Now, I have sociological, historical and psychological evidence supporting my position, but that means jack and squat to a women who has grown up with the hijab and for whom it is central to her cultural and religious identity. Maybe she will eventually see otherwise, maybe not, but the worst thing I can do is give her a hard time about it, because the usual response is to defend against the perceived attack on the self that the criticism represents by clinging ever tighter to the cultural traditions I object to.
 
2014-03-09 08:51:17 PM  

unyon: Deedeemarz: I see a problem with the hijab uniform. If I am being ticketed or accosted by an officer I like to not only know the badge number and name but to be able to visually identify the officer. It would be very easy for impersonators to abuse that uniform....

I'm pretty sure that identifying the cop that offended you as 'the one in the hijab' would get your point across.

KiltedBastich: There's one exception to that rule. If the immigrants feel ostracized or threatened, if they feel like they cannot become full participants in the civic life of their new home, they will band together and form enclaves where they preserve and promote their original cultural traditions, and avoid and reject those of the host culture.

Bang on.  And multiculturalism further helps the issue, by letting newcomers know that most of their traditions won't be threatened.  The  negotiated challenge comes with the handful of traditions that can't be accepted, because they run counter to the idea of multiculturalism at all.  This cop hijab is a good example- it's designed to welcome and encourage muslim women into the police force.  But it also reinforces the very notion of the hijab, a patriarchal construct that runs counter to Canadian notions of gender equality.

Benevolent Misanthrope: I just find it amusing that "culturally advanced" Quebec is trying to pass a law that would outlaw Sikhs wearing turbans, Muslims wearing hijabs, Christians wearing crosses...  Meanwhile in "redneck Alberta", Edmonton Police designed a hijab uniform for female Muslim officers.

It's Alberta.  We don't have time for discrimination, nor can we afford to alienate anybody that can get the job done.  Every able mind and strong back welcome.


True story, Alberta has been consistently adding jobs to the Canadian economy, unlike Quebec.
 
2014-03-09 11:14:15 PM  
Quebec, focusing on it's culture again, over other things important

An entire province, raised to believe their culture is important (it certainly can be), but never once understanding the value of not obsessing over it, or the fact that culture changes with each generation, inside and outside.

It's quite sad to me. Instead of celebrating and sharing the culture and values they grew up with and letting the young and new decide and explore, Quebec has long focused on ensuring nothing else matters or gets in but their culture, to the detriment of everything else. And it hurts them a lot. But of course, if they only worry about their culture, they may not be noticing that....
 
2014-03-10 01:56:19 AM  

brantgoose: grumpfuff: clkeagle:

Knitting during fishing season may sound silly but perhaps it had a point at the time.  Fishermen were often very good knitters. Why? Because they had to repair and make nets, which are a sort of knitting or macramé-type work.

I saw a fisherman's wife on TV during one of these documentary shows that are big on Canadian TV and she acknowledged that her husband was a better knitter than she was.


It might also be to prevent them from knitting sweaters and the like while they were on the boat because their bosses didn't want them to be doing anything recreational that might be distracting to them or make them work less. If you weren't a whaler out on long trip, you might not have time to be carving things, but you could work on your knitting. Sounds weird, but in the old days, knitting was a manly activity. Crocheting and lacemaking were for the ladies! Fisherman, sailors and soldiers might have knitted when they had spare time, as well as playing cards and things like that. It saved them money and gave them something to do when they were bored. Yarn is pretty light to carry around and when you're done you just have more clothing.
 
2014-03-10 03:23:03 AM  
Can we just all agree that Cheezies are the product of the Devil and I can't stop eating them?

ibackpackcanada.com


Your plan for revenge against America is almost complete, Canucks.
 
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