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(Telegraph)   How dare you tell my daughter she's pretty   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 178
    More: Silly, Organisation for Economic Co-operation  
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16736 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Mar 2014 at 4:24 PM (37 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



178 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-03-08 09:17:36 PM  
ts1.explicit.bing.net
I like a girl not afraid to play Football.
 
2014-03-08 09:34:41 PM  
This woman is absolutely right, and I want to do something. But...the waitress just came by and asked if I want a private table dance, and I slid a dollar into her garter belt that was right next to her bingo card...I only come here for the fee wifi...
 
2014-03-08 09:45:03 PM  

Mock26: When life gives you lemons then go and get some sugar and yeast and make some booze.  This is a perfect opportunity for this woman to start making pink posters that tell her daughter to be brave and fearless and to jump off the roof with a sheet for a parachute and to run blindfold down a wooded hill and all the fun stuff that boys are used to doing.


Hm, me and my sisters and friends did all that and yet we were surrounded by pre-PC ads for little-girl pink stuff and Barbies and EZ-Bake Ovens and all the rest. And of the three of us (me and my sisters) my youngest sister wound up being an Air Force pilot and is now a doctor, my middle sister has been a teacher and mother all her life, and I've variously been a karate instructor, medic, rentacop and writer.

I dunno...it's almost as though individual personality traits and upbringing matter more than what children see on random posters and TV ads throughout their lives.
 
2014-03-08 09:50:42 PM  

Gyrfalcon: I dunno...it's almost as though individual personality traits and upbringing matter more than what children see on random posters and TV ads throughout their lives.


Speaking of which, here's something.  The MMPPI, which is given to cops, civil servants and recidivist criminals, found something interesting.  The result are expressed in a graph.  Cops and criminals are essentially the same people, except cops have slightly higher IQs.  But they tend to see the world through the same windows.
 
2014-03-08 10:09:20 PM  

bratface: Well Ms. Parmar, your daughter is only 6,


I've dated worse.  6 isn't so bad.
 
2014-03-08 10:22:49 PM  

Pattuq: I don't know about anyone else, but I like pretty, feminine "stereotypical" girls.  I'm not interested in dating or marrying another man.  I've met quite a few young women who behave like stereotypical men (rude, abrasive, macho) and it's a huge turn-off.


I wish that I could find a girl who enjoyed wearing dresses and skirts and is more "frilly, girly" than the average woman is today. Oh, and chokers. I rather like those.

But I'm attracted to, as a person, geek girls. And really those are the only types that would ever be attracted to me, myself being what I refer to as a "functional geek". Geek girls are,  predominantly, tomboys. Not that tomboys can't or don't have their own charm.

What I prefer in a woman as a person and what I prefer aesthetically doesn't seem to have much overlap.

Anyway, I don't like gender traditions or stereotypes. They're confining and often insulting. I really don't fit into the "traditional" way that a man is supposed to be. Now, I do plenty of "manly" things. I'm good with my hands and I'm a professional tradesman. I'm good at fixing things including working on cars and motorcycles. I also drive stick and motorcycles and can throw back shots of hard liquor without flinching.

I also have 4 ear piercings (2 lobe, 2 helix. One in each corner, basically), dye my hair unnatural colors, paint my nails, and enjoy dressing up in a suit and looking prim and proper. I can cook, bake, clean and generally tend house better than most women I know. I have no interest in sports. One of my favorite colors is purple (others are blue and black). I'm generally well spoken and
respectable (which has caught people off guard before, much to my amusement). I'm completely straight/hetero.

Fark gender stereotypes. Do what makes you happy. A girl doesn't have to be a princess. A boy doesn't have to like sports. Don't try to form your kids into preset molds. Let them be themselves and realize that every person is a unique individual and
doesn't have to fit into a premade form to be considered a valid person.
 
2014-03-08 10:31:44 PM  
For me, it's not that women dress in a "non feminine" manner, it's that, by and large, Americans tend to either dress like attorneys or just plain badly.  The forties and fifties, if nothing else, had style.  I mean, face it, most of the people you see on the street look like they just finally got back from Woodstock and ate about a dozen èclairs on the way after stopping at the tattoo parlor.
 
2014-03-08 10:36:50 PM  
Aside from the "be a princess," I think the qualities on the pink one are just as positive as the blue, just in different ways.  Remembering to laugh and smile, and breeding creativity and all that... that's all good things, that people of all genders should do.  They're not offensive qualities.  It's not like it f*cking says, "be meek and subservient."

Buy both.
 
2014-03-08 10:37:07 PM  
I mean, this is Barbara Stanwyck.  Does she look dumb or oppressed?

i.imgur.com
No.  She looks classy as all get out.
 
2014-03-08 10:39:04 PM  

Gawdzila: I'm saying that the types of things we encourage between girls and boys should be closer to the same.


Why?
Considering:

moeburn: I can recall at least a dozen female friends that I grew up with who loved to play with Barbie dolls, who had Disney princess stickers all over their belongings, who fawned over hunky boys in the latest movies, and ALL of them grew up to be empowered, successful, confident women, conquering fields of employment previously thought to be mens-only. Most of them are also highly involved in modern feminism.


What if, our current gender roles, are what the majority likes without this ghostly "influence"?  Why should we ease up on it if it helps say, 75% of people find what they like?

Facts are, you really can't too heavily influence too many preferences.  Sexuality to favorite foods.  We like what we like.  Sure, we can form negative associations.  I've had to throw up Jack Daniels, and I no longer like to drink it.  But can you make me like something that I don't actually like?  Can you change a straight boy into a gay man or visa versa?

For the sake of argument, I move that you could, but you couldn't do it with commercials and TV ads, and the result would likely be a neurotic basket-case,

Really, the argument, though seemingly liberal, does not mesh well with other liberal messages.
 
2014-03-08 11:07:12 PM  
thumbs.dreamstime.com 

   Yes!  We are all different and unique in our own special way!


Meh.


Somehow, this doesn't seem so  much enlightened as Orwellian.
 
2014-03-08 11:45:44 PM  

studebaker hoch: Marine drill sergeant to new recruit: "Did you look at my wife?"

Recruit:  "Yes"
(recruit gets rifle butt to face)

Recruit:  "No"
Sergeant:  "What, she ain't good enough for you?"
(recruit gets rifle butt to face)


Yup. Tantalize and then punish. No matter how a human reacts, it gets punished.

What do you end up with?
 
2014-03-09 12:08:07 AM  
The posters FTA were actually really inspirational to a graphic artist such as I am, so I made a couple of my own:

i743.photobucket.com
Hmm... should I see them on Etsy or Society6 or CafePress?
 
2014-03-09 12:10:34 AM  
Your son does not get called resourceful.  You made that up so that you would have a strawman (strawboy?) to attack.  Your daughter is unlikely to be sweet with you as a parent, unless it's in spite of you in which case she could certainly be called determined.  But then you'd have to personally describe her as spiteful and which gender trait is that?
 
2014-03-09 12:14:48 AM  

magicgoo: The posters FTA were actually really inspirational to a graphic artist such as I am, so I made a couple of my own:

[i743.photobucket.com image 800x471]
Hmm... should I see them on Etsy or Society6 or CafePress?


Brilliant. Winner winner chicken dinner.
 
2014-03-09 12:23:30 AM  

magicgoo: The posters FTA were actually really inspirational to a graphic artist such as I am, so I made a couple of my own:

[i743.photobucket.com image 800x471]
Hmm... should I see them on Etsy or Society6 or CafePress?


As a designer likewise, that is genuinely pretty funny. Normally, I'd suggest getting help, but with that in mind - please make more or market that!
 
2014-03-09 12:30:42 AM  

magicgoo: The posters FTA were actually really inspirational to a graphic artist such as I am, so I made a couple of my own:

[i743.photobucket.com image 800x471]
Hmm... should I see them on Etsy or Society6 or CafePress?


cross stitch that shiat

no,  really

back to the photoshop
 
2014-03-09 12:54:29 AM  
As a parent, I think the author should shut up.
 
2014-03-09 01:07:39 AM  

baconbeard: Gawdzila: bunner: That's pretty much the de facto standard, and should be. But if she's pretty, too, she's being insulted, discriminated against and "held back"? Seriously?

No, and you're missing the actual point.

It isn't that telling a girl that she is pretty is, itself, objectively bad.  The point is the observation that we, as a society, tend to tell girls that they are pretty or whatever instead of other things.  Of course her parents and teachers tell her that she can be whatever she want, but they aren't the only influence, and they aren't the most common one.  Even if her mom says she can become a scientist or a race car driver if she wants to, if everyone else including strangers, books, TV shows, whatever, repeatedly and consistently give her (and other girls) positive reinforcement for passive traits like being pretty, then she is likely to eventually internalize and emphasize those traits no matter what her parents say.

How do you explain highly successful women? How are they able to overcome these messages from "everyone"?


Highly successful people tend to not give a shiat about what others think of them, they are too busy succeeding.

Much like men who don't care what others think of them get labeled as "asshole", women who do the same get labeled "biatch". Different terms for the same traits.
 
2014-03-09 01:15:54 AM  

Bonzo_1116: Much like men who don't care what others think of them get labeled as "asshole", women who do the same get labeled "biatch". Different terms for the same traits.


That's one explanation that tends to require a very specific definition of "success".  "Pushy pain in he ass with a nice house and a German car" is not my definition of success.
 
2014-03-09 01:26:39 AM  

bunner: Bonzo_1116: Much like men who don't care what others think of them get labeled as "asshole", women who do the same get labeled "biatch". Different terms for the same traits.

That's one explanation that tends to require a very specific definition of "success".  "Pushy pain in he ass with a nice house and a German car" is not my definition of success.


The nice house and German car *is* success if you measure yourself by the sort of consumerist derp we're all soaking in.

I've long had a suspicion that the gender segregation of the toy aisle is so the manufacturers make money on multiple sales to families with boys and girls. Little Timmy wouldn't be caught dead riding his older sister's Ariel boogie board, so the family ends up buying him the "Cars" one too.
 
2014-03-09 03:03:21 AM  

Bonzo_1116: The nice house and German car *is* success if you measure yourself by the sort of consumerist derp we're all soaking in.


Pretty much my point, yeah.
 
2014-03-09 03:40:26 AM  
the first joke in this segment is supremely relevant..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSx_42ivLPk
 
2014-03-09 09:49:18 AM  

Magic_Button: listernine: Tl;dr, sandy vagina, etc. etc...

I ordered a book called "How to be a feminist in three easy steps"

It was a diagram of a vagina, a bag of sand and a tampon applicator


You Sir, owe me a new screen protector!
 
2014-03-09 02:04:28 PM  

moeburn: I don't understand how calling your daughter a "princess" or letting them watch Disney movies has anything to with their success and confidence as a person. I can recall at least a dozen female friends that I grew up with who loved to play with Barbie dolls, who had Disney princess stickers all over their belongings, who fawned over hunky boys in the latest movies, and ALL of them grew up to be empowered, successful, confident women, conquering fields of employment previously thought to be mens-only. Most of them are also highly involved in modern feminism.


Maybe you are the one who is stereotyping, and holding your own gender back? Maybe you shouldn't imply to young women that if they like to pretend they are a princess, and if they like to watch Disney, then they will grow up to have their lives ruled by men.


And im not sure about this Climate Change and Global warming.  I know several days that were really cold!

/Yay anecdotes!
 
2014-03-09 02:06:11 PM  

kevinatilusa: The problem isn't just that people do this for 6-7 year old kids.   People do the exact same thing in reference letters when they're applying for jobs

Even when they mean well, they tend to use different adjectives when writing letters about women then men.  The letters about women are much more likely to focus on their personality characteristics ("warm", "nurturing", etc.).  Meanwhile, when they're reading letters they view a letter-writer focusing on personal characteristics as a negative sign and because of this are less likely to hire female candidates.

For more details, see this 2009 study.



Now this is truly interesting.
 
2014-03-09 02:37:17 PM  

Bender The Offender: Oh, and you want to talk about gender neutral parenting? My daughter;s dreams of paleontology have died, she has now set her sights on becoming a government funded assassin for the CIA. She's 13 now. I've taken her shooting, teaching her to shoot both a Glock 19 and an AR 15. Everyone has told her how pretty she is her entire life. That has done nothing to dissuade her from her dreams of murder and world domination. Parenting makes all the difference.

/the assassin and teaching her to shoot thing are 100% true


img.fark.net
 
2014-03-09 02:56:35 PM  

ghostwind: While you might be right, I will leave this here anyways...


You know, the more I see that poster here, the more I want to have a loud, feminist, obnoxious presence here. Basically the poster is saying, "I have an interest in keeping Fark a closed community with a lot of sexism and you'll just have to leave if you don't like it." And that's why there are so few women on here and the white male privilege is palpable.

So screw that, I expect people on here to be educated and respectful and I'll yell at them when they aren't.

That is all.
 
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