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(Telegraph)   How dare you tell my daughter she's pretty   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 178
    More: Silly, Organisation for Economic Co-operation  
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16637 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Mar 2014 at 4:24 PM (19 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-08 06:26:09 PM

orbister: Maybe she thinks the one headed "you are a princess" is aimed at girls. It would certainly be a little harder to persuade boys that it applied to them than the other way round.


Maybe it was supposed to be "prince/ss", and it was accidentally sanitized.
 
2014-03-08 06:26:36 PM

Hermione_Granger: FirstNationalBastard: So then buy the blue poster, you stupid twat.

You're biatching about gender stereotyping, then adhering to "pink is for girls, blue is for boys".

fark you and anyone who looks like you.

Yeah, because boys go around told to be a princesses. It's not just the color, it's the content of the posters.


1. It's the content of one poster.
2. What hangs in the child's room is the parent's responsibility.  Nothing is being forced here. If your child is exposed enough for them to be altered, that is the parent's fault.  TV, to movies, to video games, posters, toys, etc.
3.  The posters, from a quick GIS, appear to be from etsy.  Not exactly tinfoil hat material.
4. Go ahead and tell your boy to be a princess. See how well that works out for them.

Sure, gender roles exist.  A boy who's effeminate and such is going to face certain issues in life.  Sad?  Maybe.  Special case?  No.  It doesn't matter how a child is different, if they are they're going to be ostracized.  It's basic human psychology.  Do you want to encourage your child to act like others to get along, or to tell them they're a snowflake and spoil them?

Take it beyond that, and adults are expected to be much more professional and non-unique in the wider world.  Got an office job?  There's a dress code.  Got a court appearance? Job interview.? etc etc.  Everyone gets judged by our appearances(physical and attitudes).  Right/Wrong?  Just the way it is, because it does work.  Maybe not the ideal, but it does have a level of overall efficiency that's better than a large chunk of humanity.

If you don't like that, you could move to somewhere like Africa and live amongst a people who function on an entirely different societal pattern. Or more simply become reclusive.

But people like to meddle and make the environment conform to them.  Import one predator to do away with one pest, and now that predator over-populates and runs others out and becomes yet another pest.

Society is like that.  When you change the order of the eco system, there are effects, some of them far reaching, some you may not see for years, even decades.

Me, I see a lot of things wrong with society.  Being liberal may be the right idea, morally speaking, but it's also had it's drain on our way of life.  Spoiled snowflakes, nanny states and laws, obesity and laziness issues, people "unable" to find work.

If the trade off is WBC, Snake dancing faith healers, christian rule in general, and anti-vaxxers, etc, i'd take it in a heartbeat, but they're still around too.

I don't thing guiding your kid in a given direction is a bad thing, a really good thing when it actually fits.

Pushing them too hard is the same as any other form of abuse, but not guiding them at all is abuse as well, neglectful.

I think standard gender roles are that middle ground.  As long as you're not forcing your daughter into pink dresses despite their resistance, there's little anyone can do or say to prove that it's "wrong".

There are women who are submissive, and men who are dominant, who fit all the stereotypes to a T, even find joy in them.  What's wrong with allowing people to just be themselves?

That's my biggest problem with the liberal movement at large.  It always comes off as a strong woman anti-stereotype thinking that all women should be like her, which is the exact same fallacy as the "good wife" conservative push to make women be more like them.


Very similar to the feminist movement to protect women from advertising.  Do women need protecting, are they that open to suggestion and control?  The movement in and of itself can be an insult to strong women who actually strive for and may achieve equality.
 
2014-03-08 06:27:11 PM

Savage Belief: Fano:

The CEO also needs to do something about that cro-magnon facial structure.


I didn't realize Mickey Rourke was the CEO

img1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-03-08 06:30:24 PM
The pink one was for your son......

treasure.diylol.com
 
2014-03-08 06:38:15 PM

No Such Agency: To be fair those posters are pretty bad. Kids absorb the gender role limitations, spoken or unspoken, that we immerse them in. I don't mind pink but I'd love to see a pink shirt aimed at my daughter... that has dump tricks or dinosaurs or any one of the other things she should feel free to like, even if she also likes pink.


I don't know what you're into, but to a NYC hooker a "dump trick" costs A LOT more.
 
2014-03-08 06:38:28 PM

bunner: That's pretty much the de facto standard, and should be. But if she's pretty, too, she's being insulted, discriminated against and "held back"? Seriously?


No, and you're missing the actual point.

It isn't that telling a girl that she is pretty is, itself, objectively bad.  The point is the observation that we, as a society, tend to tell girls that they are pretty or whatever instead of other things.  Of course her parents and teachers tell her that she can be whatever she want, but they aren't the only influence, and they aren't the most common one.  Even if her mom says she can become a scientist or a race car driver if she wants to, if everyone else including strangers, books, TV shows, whatever, repeatedly and consistently give her (and other girls) positive reinforcement for passive traits like being pretty, then she is likely to eventually internalize and emphasize those traits no matter what her parents say.
 
2014-03-08 06:39:43 PM

Gawdzila: The point is the observation that we, as a society, tend to tell girls that they are pretty or whatever instead of other things.


I suppose there's merit to that, but don't the other things become self evident?
 
2014-03-08 06:40:35 PM
Fine, I'll just ignore her like walking legal liability she is.
 
2014-03-08 06:41:41 PM

Gawdzila: bunner: That's pretty much the de facto standard, and should be. But if she's pretty, too, she's being insulted, discriminated against and "held back"? Seriously?

No, and you're missing the actual point.

It isn't that telling a girl that she is pretty is, itself, objectively bad.  The point is the observation that we, as a society, tend to tell girls that they are pretty or whatever instead of other things.  Of course her parents and teachers tell her that she can be whatever she want, but they aren't the only influence, and they aren't the most common one.  Even if her mom says she can become a scientist or a race car driver if she wants to, if everyone else including strangers, books, TV shows, whatever, repeatedly and consistently give her (and other girls) positive reinforcement for passive traits like being pretty, then she is likely to eventually internalize and emphasize those traits no matter what her parents say.


How do you explain highly successful women? How are they able to overcome these messages from "everyone"?
 
2014-03-08 06:45:03 PM

baconbeard: How do you explain highly successful women? How are they able to overcome these messages from "everyone"?


That's sort of my point.  Isn't any young girl or boy, who are as bright as their parents repeatedly insist they must be, capable of identifying what's marketing, what's noise floor, what's wisdom and what's just people selling stuff?  I know I could.
 
2014-03-08 06:46:37 PM
Hey stupid coont, if you do not like the posters then do not buy them.  Problem solved.
 
2014-03-08 06:46:37 PM

bunner: baconbeard: How do you explain highly successful women? How are they able to overcome these messages from "everyone"?

That's sort of my point.  Isn't any young girl or boy, who are as bright as their parents repeatedly insist they must be, capable of identifying what's marketing, what's noise floor, what's wisdom and what's just people selling stuff?  I know I could.


Yes, exactly.
 
2014-03-08 06:52:50 PM
cdnl.complex.com
 
2014-03-08 06:54:29 PM
When life gives you lemons then go and get some sugar and yeast and make some booze.  This is a perfect opportunity for this woman to start making pink posters that tell her daughter to be brave and fearless and to jump off the roof with a sheet for a parachute and to run blindfold down a wooded hill and all the fun stuff that boys are used to doing.
 
2014-03-08 06:58:20 PM

baconbeard: How do you explain highly successful women? How are they able to overcome these messages from "everyone"?


Because everyone is different.
Are you totally incapable of thinking in non-absolute terms, or what?  Must everything be either wholly responsible or irrelevant?

My point was that it is an influence -- an important one, but still only one of many.  It is a contributor.  It means that if you want to increase the number of women in various fields, that this is one of the problems that you have to take into account.


bunner: I suppose there's merit to that, but don't the other things become self evident?


Since when do things being self-evident have anything to do with how often people are complimented on them?  Athletes and scientists are complimented on their athleticism and intellect all the time.  People internalize praise.  Positive reinforcement is totally a thing, I promise.  Whether people know they have a trait or not, being praised for that trait is likely to cause people to pursue things that lead to more praise.


bunner: That's sort of my point. Isn't any young girl or boy, who are as bright as their parents repeatedly insist they must be, capable of identifying what's marketing, what's noise floor, what's wisdom and what's just people selling stuff? I know I could.


This stuff is beyond conscious thought.  Emotional methods of influence (like praise or punishment) still work even if you know what's going on.  Some people get past it and ignore it, some people don't.  Once again, I'm not trying to tout this as a 100% explanation for everything anyone ever does.  There is no such thing as a complete explanation for behavior, that's a ridiculous notion.  I'm saying that this is an influence.  We're talking about percentages of a huge population, and I think this is worth quite a few percentage points.  Yes there are still women who are astronauts and race car drivers and paleontologists who ignored all of that stuff.  But this article is about the women who DON'T end up doing that stuff, and why.
 
2014-03-08 07:04:06 PM
Went to the article with high hopes of pretty girls.  Leaving dissapoint.
 
2014-03-08 07:04:44 PM

Gawdzila: Whether people know they have a trait or not, being praised for that trait is likely to cause people to pursue things that lead to more praise.


And god forbid people pursue happiness.  People should really just lock their kids in closets with a bag of dogfood and the end of a waterhose.  You know, to avoid influencing them, indeed, letting the world at large influence them.
 
2014-03-08 07:04:48 PM

Gawdzila: But this article is about the women who DON'T end up doing that stuff, and why.


I get that, but I am wont to believe it's pretty much the same reason a lot of boys don't end up doing that stuff.  One person's epiphany is another person's noise floor.
 
2014-03-08 07:10:50 PM

Delta1212: /Otherwise, though, mommy's got a point and it's something I've noticed, myself. Compliments to girls are so disproportionately about looks that compliments about anything else are often used euphemistically for saying that someone is ugly. (See: She's got a great personality).


Absolutely. When people are introduced to little girls they almost always compliment them on their appearance ("That's a pretty jumper you're wearing"). This hardly ever happens to boys.
 
2014-03-08 07:12:39 PM
You're gonna have to excuse my ostensibly limited views on this stuff, if you will, because I was never complimented for ANYTHING as a child at home.  Nada.  Any praise I got for my talents or abilities were from the world at large and for the most part, the whole notion of family moral support is alien to me.  As a child, it never occurred to me that the world worked any other way.  But I still have difficulty believing that pink and blue and Barbie and He man are defining aspects of anybody's word view.
 
2014-03-08 07:13:35 PM

baconbeard: How do you explain highly successful women? How are they able to overcome these messages from "everyone"?


The US president is black so clearly black people in the US do not suffer from racial discrimination.
 
2014-03-08 07:14:14 PM

studebaker hoch: Marine drill sergeant to new recruit: "Did you look at my wife?"

Recruit:  "Yes"
(recruit gets rifle butt to face)

Recruit:  "No"
Sergeant:  "What, she ain't good enough for you?"
(recruit gets rifle butt to face)


www.sharegif.com
 
2014-03-08 07:17:25 PM

orbister: Delta1212: /Otherwise, though, mommy's got a point and it's something I've noticed, myself. Compliments to girls are so disproportionately about looks that compliments about anything else are often used euphemistically for saying that someone is ugly. (See: She's got a great personality).

Absolutely. When people are introduced to little girls they almost always compliment them on their appearance ("That's a pretty jumper you're wearing"). This hardly ever happens to boys.


It sounds like you have limited life experiences. Or overly literal. (ie boys get called handsome and have their clothes commented on quite a bit)
 
2014-03-08 07:21:27 PM

FirstNationalBastard: So then buy the blue poster, you stupid twat.

You're biatching about gender stereotyping, then adhering to "pink is for girls, blue is for boys".

fark you and anyone who looks like you.


True.  Neither is labeled.  IT is her stereotyping that BLue is for Boys and Pink is for girls.
 
2014-03-08 07:22:43 PM

FirstNationalBastard: So then buy the blue poster, you stupid twat.

You're biatching about gender stereotyping, then adhering to "pink is for girls, blue is for boys".

fark you and anyone who looks like you.


RogermcAllen: The easiest and most obvious solution to this problem is for the mommy blogger to buy the blue poster for her daughter.


omeganuepsilon: What hangs in the child's room is the parent's responsibility.  Nothing is being forced here. If your child is exposed enough for them to be altered, that is the parent's fault.  TV, to movies, to video games, posters, toys, etc.


You're all missing the point and it's not that one poster might end up in one little girl's room.  The poster is just one example that the author felt compelled to write about as it represents the society wide problem with gender stereotypes.  And don't pretend that Mommy and Daddy can put their kids in a bubble that totally prevents exposure to social and cultural cues.

omeganuepsilon: Very similar to the feminist movement to protect women from advertising.  Do women need protecting, are they that open to suggestion and control?  The movement in and of itself can be an insult to strong women who actually strive for and may achieve equality.


PEOPLE are that open to that suggestion.  Popular culture and social pressure have profound effects on everyone.  Look at cross cultural studies or historical studies about how cultural attitudes are different in different times and places.  Our current culture and stereotypes aren't some immutable thing.
 
2014-03-08 07:26:23 PM

FirstNationalBastard: So then buy the blue poster, you stupid twat.

You're biatching about gender stereotyping, then adhering to "pink is for girls, blue is for boys".

fark you and anyone who looks like you.


So we can't like pink and climb trees?  How about if we like purple, would that be okay?
 
2014-03-08 07:26:53 PM

omeganuepsilon: People should really just lock their kids in closets with a bag of dogfood and the end of a waterhose.  You know, to avoid influencing them, indeed, letting the world at large influence them.


omeganuepsilon: What hangs in the child's room is the parent's responsibility.  Nothing is being forced here. If your child is exposed enough for them to be altered, that is the parent's fault.  TV, to movies, to video games, posters, toys, etc.


Which is it?

Is the world at large going to influence children unless they're locked in a closet or do parent's carry the entire blame for allowing their children to be exposed to popular culture?
 
2014-03-08 07:27:35 PM

www.liverightnowonline.com


GREAT JOB!

 
2014-03-08 07:28:22 PM

omeganuepsilon: Gawdzila: Whether people know they have a trait or not, being praised for that trait is likely to cause people to pursue things that lead to more praise.

And god forbid people pursue happiness.  People should really just lock their kids in closets with a bag of dogfood and the end of a waterhose.  You know, to avoid influencing them, indeed, letting the world at large influence them.


Oh for f*cks sake.  I'm not saying that no one should ever be influenced by anyone or anything.  I'm saying that the types of things we encourage between girls and boys should be closer to the same.


bunner: I get that, but I am wont to believe it's pretty much the same reason a lot of boys don't end up doing that stuff.


But they DO end up doing that stuff.  That's the point.  It's one of the reasons why there is such a large gap between the number of men who go into STEM-type fields and women who do.  The traits and activities that are encouraged in girls don't lead to those things as readily as those that are encouraged in boys.


bunner: I still have difficulty believing that pink and blue and Barbie and He man are defining aspects of anybody's word view.


I think you'd be very surprised how much building things with Legos and tinker toys vs. dressing up dolls can influence the thinking of children.  Intellectually as an older person it seems silly, but behavior, thought patterns, and emotional responses are built upon a foundation that begins at a very young age.

Once again, it's a percentages thing.  Not all things influence everyone by the same amount.
 
2014-03-08 07:30:40 PM

missmez: FirstNationalBastard: So then buy the blue poster, you stupid twat.

You're biatching about gender stereotyping, then adhering to "pink is for girls, blue is for boys".

fark you and anyone who looks like you.

So we can't like pink and climb trees?  How about if we like purple, would that be okay?


Purple is my favorite color, and I still like climbing trees :p
 
2014-03-08 07:31:00 PM

Gawdzila: Once again, it's a percentages thing.  Not all things influence everyone by the same amount.


agreed.
 
2014-03-08 07:40:45 PM
i1.ytimg.com

How much for your daughter ??
 
2014-03-08 07:57:35 PM
Stereotypes usually exist for an actual factual reason. You know, like men and women are actually biologically different.
 
2014-03-08 07:59:40 PM
Good, kids are ugly and weird, we all were, and we all had those awkward phases and I don't give a damn about your kid, don't post them on Facebook or shove them down peoples throats and don't define your existence to push out crotch fruit and what they do (believe it or not other humans and species can reproduce and it's not new).

/dnrtfa
//hates people who push their kids on others
 
2014-03-08 08:05:27 PM

vodka: Stereotypes usually exist for an actual factual reason. You know, like men and women are actually biologically different.


I think that there is some merit in the notion that if something like a gender specific marketing ploy can affect a person's world view, certainly their own biology and hormonal activity can do the same.  Stereotypes aren't always derogatory or even inaccurate.  F'rinstance, a research study found that, when driving, men saw themselves as being "on the road" and women tended to think of themselves as being "in the car".  Is this some oppressive construct?  FFS, no.  Was it a simple, objective gathering of information?  Yeah.  Does it apply to all men or women?  I'd be astounded to find it did.  So, we return to the individual and a vast amount of flavors that are mixed in with two quite different bases.  Such as it ever was.  And I don't see that as being a detriment.  Biology does matter.
 
2014-03-08 08:12:14 PM
I don't understand how calling your daughter a "princess" or letting them watch Disney movies has anything to with their success and confidence as a person. I can recall at least a dozen female friends that I grew up with who loved to play with Barbie dolls, who had Disney princess stickers all over their belongings, who fawned over hunky boys in the latest movies, and ALL of them grew up to be empowered, successful, confident women, conquering fields of employment previously thought to be mens-only. Most of them are also highly involved in modern feminism.


Maybe you are the one who is stereotyping, and holding your own gender back? Maybe you shouldn't imply to young women that if they like to pretend they are a princess, and if they like to watch Disney, then they will grow up to have their lives ruled by men.
 
2014-03-08 08:16:44 PM
moeburn:  Maybe you are the one who is stereotyping, and holding your own gender back? Maybe you shouldn't imply to young women that if they like to pretend they are a princess, and if they like to watch Disney, then they will grow up to have their lives ruled by men.


If you really want to cut through the crap with your kids, tell them that, regardless of what they think about life, how they self identify or whether they want to be a princess or an astronaut or both, they're probably going to have their lives rules by these.


img.rt.com


I mean, that is the rite of passage in the west, isn't it?


"Sorry about all the childhood malarkey.  Now hit the bricks and learn to make money"?
 
2014-03-08 08:21:25 PM
bunner:

whether they want to be a princess or an astronaut or both

a1.mzstatic.com


I mean, that is the rite of passage in the west, isn't it?


"Sorry about all the childhood malarkey.  Now hit the bricks and learn to make money"?


You say that like you're not from the West.  Where are you from, and what is the rite of passage there?

Oh, and here in Canada, we prefer to be called the "North".
 
2014-03-08 08:21:37 PM
Sounds like someone is either on the rag or got some sand in her cute, little vagina.  Seriously, since when is it a problem when someone compliments a girl on her prettiness.  What does she want: guys to tell her daughter that she is an ugly, fat skank?
 
2014-03-08 08:26:42 PM
moeburn:  Oh, and here in Canada, we prefer to be called the "North".


I can hit your country from where I live with a rock, if I can launch it over Lake Erie.  Just because I'm from the West doesn't mean I can't look at it from the balcony if it's necessary.
 
2014-03-08 08:30:33 PM

bunner: moeburn:  Oh, and here in Canada, we prefer to be called the "North".


I can hit your country from where I live with a rock, if I can launch it over Lake Erie.  Just because I'm from the West doesn't mean I can't look at it from the balcony if it's necessary.


The one thing I liked about living in Windsor was that I could tell the Americans in Detroit that I came all the way up north from Canada, but that its too cold up here and I want to go back south.
 
2014-03-08 08:34:49 PM
The problem isn't just that people do this for 6-7 year old kids.   People do the exact same thing in reference letters when they're applying for jobs

Even when they mean well, they tend to use different adjectives when writing letters about women then men.  The letters about women are much more likely to focus on their personality characteristics ("warm", "nurturing", etc.).  Meanwhile, when they're reading letters they view a letter-writer focusing on personal characteristics as a negative sign and because of this are less likely to hire female candidates.

For more details, see this 2009 study.
 
2014-03-08 08:41:00 PM

kevinatilusa: The problem isn't just that people do this for 6-7 year old kids.   People do the exact same thing in reference letters when they're applying for jobs

Even when they mean well, they tend to use different adjectives when writing letters about women then men.  The letters about women are much more likely to focus on their personality characteristics ("warm", "nurturing", etc.).  Meanwhile, when they're reading letters they view a letter-writer focusing on personal characteristics as a negative sign and because of this are less likely to hire female candidates.

For more details, see this 2009 study.


That's pretty interesting, and sort of effed up.  I've only done the corporate thing a few times, but I can tell you that if a female candidate put "warm and nurturing" in her CV, it could have gotten binned.  Maybe the academic track is different.  And it shouldn't be.
 
2014-03-08 08:47:59 PM

kevinatilusa: The problem isn't just that people do this for 6-7 year old kids.   People do the exact same thing in reference letters when they're applying for jobs

Even when they mean well, they tend to use different adjectives when writing letters about women then men.  The letters about women are much more likely to focus on their personality characteristics ("warm", "nurturing", etc.).  Meanwhile, when they're reading letters they view a letter-writer focusing on personal characteristics as a negative sign and because of this are less likely to hire female candidates.


Does this still apply in fields where female employers are just as common as male employers?
 
2014-03-08 08:51:10 PM
You know, this wouldn't be a problem if we'd just outlaw female writers.
 
2014-03-08 08:53:37 PM
moeburn:  Does this still apply in fields where female employers are just as common as male employers?


I realize this is just anecdotal, but in every business I've ever been in with female supervisors, they mostly walked all over female subordinates and fellow female co workers like a cheap rug.  Women in the workplace, from my limited experience are knives out,  especially on the other females in the work place.  And they can but the "I'm in charge so that means I have to be a b*tch" hat on for any guy they think can't do anything about it.  A lot of women I've worked for and with have very f*cked up ideas about leadership.
 
2014-03-08 08:59:44 PM
Then again, what I do is almost entirely antithetical to the lockstep, disingenuous and Dilbert like aspects of corporatism.  It's like the opposite of board room wankery.
 
2014-03-08 09:03:01 PM

moeburn: kevinatilusa: The problem isn't just that people do this for 6-7 year old kids.   People do the exact same thing in reference letters when they're applying for jobs

Even when they mean well, they tend to use different adjectives when writing letters about women then men.  The letters about women are much more likely to focus on their personality characteristics ("warm", "nurturing", etc.).  Meanwhile, when they're reading letters they view a letter-writer focusing on personal characteristics as a negative sign and because of this are less likely to hire female candidates.

Does this still apply in fields where female employers are just as common as male employers?


I'm not sure for either of the two halves (different adjectives/correlation between adjectives and hiring) here.  I've heard of a different study though that found a different sort of gender bias in hiring had similar magnitude  whether it was a male or female Professor reading the application (direct  link to study; the study asked Professors to evaluate hypothetical students for a laboratory manager position, and compared the evaluations on one application to that of another that was identical except for the gender of the applicant).
 
2014-03-08 09:05:14 PM
I think we spend too much time pissing around with squinting at sh*t that would be more or less inconsequential if we spent more time doing stuff that mattered and simply iring whoever did it best.
 
2014-03-08 09:06:55 PM
And if it's a disabled, black, one eyed, lesbian Buddhist, hire her.  Ditto if it's a white guy who likes mayonnaise and the Carpenters.  Then cut the sh*t and get some work done.
 
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