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(TreeHugger)   To the left: A realistic & economically sound plan to get everything, in every state, fully powered with renewable energy by 2050. To the right: naysayers explaining why this is impossible   (treehugger.com) divider line 319
    More: Obvious, United States, renewable energy, offshore wind, fuel mix disclosure, tree huggers, single source  
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7101 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Mar 2014 at 2:19 PM (25 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-07 08:53:35 PM

Hollie Maea: 10 sec rule applies to pudding too: Not sure if they are taking this into account, but the major problem is how much you have to oversize the power sources. Minnesota has 60% onshore wind and 19% offshore wind (on a lake???). But the wind doesn't always blow. And when it doesn't blow you lost 79 percent of your power. And if this is at night, you lost another 20% of your power. Leaving you with essentially ZERO power production.
Obviously you cannot get solar power at night, so you have to have the ability to get at least 100% of your power needs from non-solar sources. The same for wind when it doesn't blow, etc. You cannot get rid of fossil fuel production because it is the ONLY 100% reliable source (not including maintenance.)

Get this: what if we built the solar and wind and only used the fossil fuel as a backup on the rare occasions when nothing else would work?

Alternatively, we could just burn all the fossil fuels now and then when they are gone just throw up our hands and give up.


Yeah, but decentralizing power means that people might not do what rich people say.
 
2014-03-07 08:57:15 PM

FLMountainMan: Surpheon:  We probably have a good 30 year bridge to get to a sustainable basis

Said people forty years ago.


No...let me FTFY. Forty years ago people were saying we have a good 30 year bridge to get to sustainable fusion. Big difference. Huge.
 
2014-03-07 09:00:38 PM

lewismarktwo: Yeah, but decentralizing power means that people might not do what rich people say.


Somewhat more critically:

1) FWIH, most of the cost of bringing you power is infrastructure.  So requiring people to buy power back from you at the non-wholesale cost is really stupid.
2) There's also some serious problems with powering the grid off of 10's of thousands of uncontrolled, randomly going up and down power sources.  Like 2003 blackout problems*.  And "Electrical Engineers already drink too much/fark that math" problems.

*This is not to be read as saying that solar power causes blackouts, but that random uncontrolled power spikes and dips cause blackouts.
 
2014-03-07 09:14:54 PM

HST's Dead Carcass: Aren't you listening? This is totally unfeasible and is not supposed to work! OMG! ...


It doesn't. A 3.8Kw panel is too small to power a water heater, stove, clothes dryer, or heat in even the tiniest of homes, much less everything else you have.

All modern houses are built with 22Kw service for this exact reason.
 
2014-03-07 09:26:50 PM

Crazy Lee: Jimmysolson: Destructor: Hollie Maea: Destructor: Nuclear power & Reprocessing.

Too expensive.

Looking at the levelized cost (most affected by taxes). But looking at the actual cost, transmission distances, land savings in term of power density, and reliability, it becomes hard to beat.

If you really want to leave a tiny ecological foot print, nuclear is the only way to go.

Except for that little problem with accidents, natural disasters, spent fuel storage and whatnot.
Nuclear is some pretty scary shiat.

Scarier than Natural Gas?   http://primis.phmsa.dot.gov/comm/reports/safety/AllPSI.html?nocache=7 7 26#_ngdistrib  ?  Just how many deaths attributed to `radiation events' from the inception of Nuclear Navy/U.S. Commercial nuclear power, until present?

The Integral Fast Reactor was developed and perfected at Argonne West (Idaho National Labs) at a cost to the taxpayer of 20 Billion (1984-1994) - cut short of completion by 2 yrs owing to Kerry in the Senate (appeasing greens) and Clinton (looking to be a `budget cutter' as the Contract with America rabble was on the way to the House). The reprocessing of spent fuel demonstration wasn't completed; all high level spent fuel/as well as depleted Uranium stocks can be reused - until nothing remains but an easily vitrified (`glass beads') product with a `dangerous half-life of only 300yrs.  The IFR was a passive safety design - via the physics of the process itself - no human intervention required to shut it down (too hot, too many thermal neutrons escape the core, fission can't be sustained). This was demonstrated a couple of months before Chernobyl.  The IFR had both the external cooling & electricity cut-off and the staff just sat and watched.  Then they went to lunch.
http://www.ne.anl.gov/About/hn/logos-winter02-psr.shtml   The IFR was no science project, GE still has reactor design (PRISM) based on IFR specs ready to go.

Breeders are renewables (just not passive in the process of renewal) and are zero emissio ...


Perhaps I should have said, nuclear is some pretty scary shiat to those of us who don't know much about it.
I'd guess there are a lot of us.
 
2014-03-07 09:31:19 PM

MrSteve007: My first check from my utility for my solar power:
[fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net image 720x684]

That's great and all, but very few people will ever get paid $.56 per kilowatt hour when the electric company sells it for .09 per kilo.

And I really want to know what you use for heat, cooking, and hot water.

I really want to know how you charge a car with a 3.8kw panel when all the chargers I see are at least 7 kw all by themselves.

 
2014-03-07 09:41:46 PM

Dwindle: HST's Dead Carcass: Aren't you listening? This is totally unfeasible and is not supposed to work! OMG! ...

It doesn't. A 3.8Kw panel is too small to power a water heater, stove, clothes dryer, or heat in even the tiniest of homes, much less everything else you have.

All modern houses are built with 22Kw service for this exact reason.


Way to be behind the times. Heat pump water heater: 700 watts. Mini-split heat pump: 250-1,200 watts (variable). Condensing dryer: 700 watts. LED lighting, 300 watts (if every light was left on). Even if you ran all of these loads at once, you're still way below 3.8 KW.

Most of these loads are off at night or on lower levels while at work during the day. When you average out total production and total consumption, they end up being about equal.
 
2014-03-07 09:42:37 PM

People_are_Idiots: We pour more money into education than private schools do, and they get a better product.


Fail and more fail. I'd have a "better product" too if I were able to pick the ingredients, something private schools always do. Ever heard of anyone being turned away from a public school? No, you haven't, and that's because we figured out a long time ago that every citizen child gets the chance to go, and that means EVERY.

There's also a lists of costs that public schools have that private schools don't, such as security, crime prevention, surveillance patrols, counseling and sometimes treatment for everything from learning disabilities to drug abuse to mental, emotional and physical abuse and handicaps to hunger, and all of it must be dealt with along with issues most private school students (and you, apparently) could never imagine.

All that costs money. A private school they can always turn your child's application down, no reason necessary, and they can keep those things out.

When you pick the ingredients, you get the cake you want. When someone shoves you into the kitchen and says "make something", you work with what's there. So you can take your "better product" (as if children were "things" to be made in a factory) and shove it up your ass, sideways.
 
2014-03-07 09:43:57 PM

Dwindle: MrSteve007: My first check from my utility for my solar power:
[fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net image 720x684]

That's great and all, but very few people will ever get paid $.56 per kilowatt hour when the electric company sells it for .09 per kilo.

And I really want to know what you use for heat, cooking, and hot water.

I really want to know how you charge a car with a 3.8kw panel when all the chargers I see are at least 7 kw all by themselves.


When at home, I only charge from 110v with the stock 1.2 KW built in charger that plugs into outlets..
 
2014-03-07 09:48:00 PM

PunGent: As opposed to the oil, coal, and nuclear subsidies, which are much larger than those for solar?


The subsidies for solar are larger than all three combined.
The guy is getting paid $.56 for what the electric company is selling for $.10.
No power plant on Earth has a subsidy like that.
 
2014-03-07 09:56:20 PM

Lsherm: Then they inexplicably show a 40% drop in energy demand.  What demand are they referring to?


From American manufacturing demand, or lack thereof.
 
2014-03-07 10:10:04 PM
MrSteve007:

Way to be behind the times. Heat pump water heater: 700 watts. Mini-split heat pump: 250-1,200 watts (variable). Condensing dryer: 700 watts. LED lighting, 300 watts (if every light was left on). Even if you ran all of these loads at once, you're still way below 3.8 KW.

I don't know of a heat pump water heater that runs on anything less that 1800 watts. Most are over 3500, and thats for a 50 gallon, which is about as small as people ever use.
A mini split heater at 1500 watts would put out less than 6,000 btu, not even enough to heat a large bedroom.
I have no idea what a 700 watt condensate dryer is, because I can't find one online.

What you cook with?
 
2014-03-07 11:07:01 PM
We lost 12 years not re-tooling for hydrogen.
 
2014-03-07 11:24:09 PM

MrSteve007: As I've said on fark many times before - almost everything directly in my life is powered by solar power: house, work, car. If I can do that in perpetually cloudy Seattle, anyone can.

My full return on investment will be July 2017 - a little over three years from now. After that, every watt I generate is money in my pocket. Considering most of the equipment is warrantied for another 22 years - I expect to save a load of cash.


Got some links to the stuff you use? I'm looking to do that (or at least supply as much of my own power as possible) when we get our house. But I have no idea where to start. 

/off to the east of you.
 
2014-03-07 11:25:33 PM

meyerkev: lewismarktwo: Yeah, but decentralizing power means that people might not do what rich people say.

Somewhat more critically:

1) FWIH, most of the cost of bringing you power is infrastructure.  So requiring people to buy power back from you at the non-wholesale cost is really stupid.
2) There's also some serious problems with powering the grid off of 10's of thousands of uncontrolled, randomly going up and down power sources.  Like 2003 blackout problems*.  And "Electrical Engineers already drink too much/fark that math" problems.

*This is not to be read as saying that solar power causes blackouts, but that random uncontrolled power spikes and dips cause blackouts.


Ultimately, solar will be what saves the grid. People always talk about how doomed the grid is if there is intermittent generation. But this is just as true for loads as well. If there is a big change in the loads, the grid has to react to that. So we use small but agile generators to react. Generally natural gas.

But there is nothing quicker than a solar panel. There is no technical reason why a solar panel has to be full pen all the time. A solar panel has an inverter that can output anything up to full power. In fact, it can even output reduce power if it is built for that. So in the future, solar panels (with micro inverters on each module) and high speed communications will give the grid just what it needs. The ultimate balancing system.

From a technical standpoint, this could happen today. The barriers are economic and policy related. Since solar panels are still barely cost effective, they keep them wide open all the time. With current penetration levels, that's fine. As prices keep going down, we'll get more flexibility. And policy makers can assign values to things like grid stabilization services, reactive power, etc. The communication systems are being developed anyway, and all of those inverter features are pretty trivial to implement.

So don't believe the hype about solar bringing doom to the grid. The opposite is true.
 
2014-03-08 02:02:14 AM

Dwindle: MrSteve007:

Way to be behind the times. Heat pump water heater: 700 watts. Mini-split heat pump: 250-1,200 watts (variable). Condensing dryer: 700 watts. LED lighting, 300 watts (if every light was left on). Even if you ran all of these loads at once, you're still way below 3.8 KW.

I don't know of a heat pump water heater that runs on anything less that 1800 watts. Most are over 3500, and thats for a 50 gallon, which is about as small as people ever use.
A mini split heater at 1500 watts would put out less than 6,000 btu, not even enough to heat a large bedroom.
I have no idea what a 700 watt condensate dryer is, because I can't find one online.

What you cook with?


As a bachelor, I typically cook with a microwave or crockpot. Although I do have a stovetop and oven, which is little used.

 50 gallon GE Geospring, in heat pump only mode: 550 watts.
http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/water-heater- fa q.htm

Fujitsu 9,600 btu mini-split, in heating mode: 3.7 amps at 220v: about 800 watts, at full blast. Mine typically uses much less, since it's inverter controlled variable speed.
http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/wallmountedRLS2_specs.htm

in an energy efficient home, 1-ton of heating per 1,000 sq.ft. is more than enough. I've found 9,600 btu to be more than sufficient in a 960 sq.ft. home in mild Western WA State. Like I said, time for you to update your info on energy efficiency.
 
2014-03-08 12:33:41 PM

rewind2846: People_are_Idiots: We pour more money into education than private schools do, and they get a better product.

Fail and more fail. I'd have a "better product" too if I were able to pick the ingredients, something private schools always do. Ever heard of anyone being turned away from a public school? No, you haven't, and that's because we figured out a long time ago that every citizen child gets the chance to go, and that means EVERY.

There's also a lists of costs that public schools have that private schools don't, such as security, crime prevention, surveillance patrols, counseling and sometimes treatment for everything from learning disabilities to drug abuse to mental, emotional and physical abuse and handicaps to hunger, and all of it must be dealt with along with issues most private school students (and you, apparently) could never imagine.

All that costs money. A private school they can always turn your child's application down, no reason necessary, and they can keep those things out.

When you pick the ingredients, you get the cake you want. When someone shoves you into the kitchen and says "make something", you work with what's there. So you can take your "better product" (as if children were "things" to be made in a factory) and shove it up your ass, sideways.


Like how you picked how much you quoted. The Japanese are under a similar "private school" mentality by cramming all they can by the time they are in 8th grade to graduate with as much knowledge as a 12th grader here. As far as "kids in a factory," Kids are a product that need to learn at the least basic skills by the time they are in 8th. Depending where you live, that can be from 50% to 80%.
 
2014-03-08 01:12:14 PM

People_are_Idiots: The Japanese are under a similar "private school" mentality by cramming all they can by the time they are in 8th grade to graduate with as much knowledge as a 12th grader here. As far as "kids in a factory," Kids are a product that need to learn at the least basic skills by the time they are in 8th. Depending where you live, that can be from 50% to 80%.


1. Children are not a "product", they are human beings. The fact that there are people who feel otherwise is one of the major failings of the system.

2. The Japanese students (for the most part) still don't have to deal with the crap that american students do. With a nearly homogenous culture, language, religion and social structure they ARE a "private school" environment. And while "cramming in knowledge" is fine and dandy, were I hiring someone I would be less interested in what they know and more interested in what they could figure out. Asian school systems are notorious for stifling "outside the box" thinking, reflecting the larger culture in which they reside.

"The nail that sticks up must be hammered down" is a phrase I learned from one of my Japanese friends way back in the 80's, and a lot of their society is still like that today. You do well not just out of a sense of self, but because the community expects it.

3. Japanese are actually WILLING to spend money on things like schools, infrastructure, trains and other things that benefit the public good, unlike the United States where it's all about "ME". That also contributes to their ability to teach their children.  There, like a good chunk of Europe, it does indeed "take a village to raise a child".
 
2014-03-08 01:43:49 PM

People_are_Idiots: The Japanese are under a similar "private school" mentality by cramming all they can by the time they are in 8th grade to graduate with as much knowledge as a 12th grader here.


One more thing... Japanese public schools are funded much differently than schools here, with half the funding coming from the federal government, and the other half coming from the local prefecture (analogous to state). Schools also get HUGE discounts on equipment and supplies and even building materials from local companies because those companies realize that the students will be working for them someday, unlike here where price gouging on contracts between private companies and school districts is fairly common. They also fund their schools in their national budget FIRST, as a priority, before defense and other spending.

There's also pretty much one set of standards for public education for the whole country, unlike the US where each state, each city, each county, and each school district just HAS to set up their own standards in their own kingdom according to their own ideology. There are posts on FARK about this all the time, with the bible-thumping crazies in the south wanting to teach kids that Jesus rode dinosaurs and that the earth is only 6,000 years old and that fossils were placed in the ground to test peoples faith... in PUBLIC schools, in 2014.
If government tried to impose one set of standards even across a state, people would sh*t themselves. Across the entire country, and there might be civil war.

Can't really compare the two systems. Theirs is mostly "US", where ours is mostly "ME". Makes a big difference.
 
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